What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your God truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that God exists, then we can only assume that God does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

The argument that God as spoken to you or shown himself to you is not evidence because it only pertains to you an you alone. Show me proof that God exists. Heck, even show me some kind of proof that God as contacted you in any way!

I need only ONE person to prove God's existance and I will believe. How does that feel? YOU can be personally responsible for saving my soul! I'm sure that gives you brownie points with God - sure to secure a one-way ticket to Heaven!

What are you, 12? Do you really think theists give a shit what you, an anonymous cartoon character on a screen thinks? If you don't believe in god, good for you, why should I care.

You'll have to ignore Kellisness MZ, he has *cough* problems.
With reality, among other things.

What are you, 12? Do you really think theists give a shit what you, an anonymous cartoon character on a screen thinks? If you don't believe in god, good for you, why should I care.

Who lit the fuse on your tampon?


You'll have to ignore Kellisness MZ, he has *cough* problems.
With reality, among other things.

Noticeably.

What are you, 12? Do you really think theists give a shit what you, an anonymous cartoon character on a screen thinks? If you don't believe in god, good for you, why should I care.

They just doesn't get it? :D

jan.

If anything I'd say he joined the wrong forum. Kelli, how about trying out www.spiritualforums.com. It may suit you more appropriately. I checked it out once. It's like one big circle-jerk of people all spewing their theistic loads on each others faces while they giggle with glee. When an atheist challenges them, they are usually quick to insult them and ban them. Sounds like something you'd enjoy being a part of. But I think it's like a cheap gym, be sure to bring your own towel to clean up with.

If anything I'd say he joined the wrong forum. Kelli, how about trying out www.spiritualforums.com. It may suit you more appropriately. I checked it out once. It's like one big circle-jerk of people all spewing their theistic loads on each others faces while they giggle with glee. When an atheist challenges them, they are usually quick to insult them and ban them. Sounds like something you'd enjoy being a part of. But I think it's like a cheap gym, be sure to bring your own towel to clean up with.

What? You mean you showed up, ridiculed and preached at everyone, and then you got banned? Well, gee, that's a mystery, how could that have happened. Actually I'm already a member of that forum, but yes I could use a towel. Maybe I could unstick one of the pages from your copy of the god delusion and use that. Unless of course you're still, erm, "using" it.

They just doesn't get it? :D

jan.

Indeed they don't.

Indeed they don't.

Very not profound. Not even informational. Not anything, as usual.

— Brother monk.

I couldn't care less what you think, brother.

Because you don't think at all, not bro.

I certainly think nothing of you, homes.

Your posts show that you have zippo, Watson.

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your God truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that God exists, then we can only assume that God does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

The argument that God as spoken to you or shown himself to you is not evidence because it only pertains to you an you alone. Show me proof that God exists. Heck, even show me some kind of proof that God as contacted you in any way!

I need only ONE person to prove God's existance and I will believe. How does that feel? YOU can be personally responsible for saving my soul! I'm sure that gives you brownie points with God - sure to secure a one-way ticket to Heaven!

that's not a nice sentiment, and that's not what it's about, so don't encourage the religious people. isn't it the narcissist in all of us that wishes for everyone to see things just the way we do? it's impossible. no one is accountable for your soul, except for you, and god can prove god's existence to you. otherwise, is it logical to believe at all? i don't know. i didn't think so. you have to own your beliefs. i see god in law, like math and physics, biology, all of it. and i see god in me too.

i don't know if many people want to hear that the search for god is introspective.

i don't know if many people want to hear that the search for god is introspective.

That does seem to be where it begins; however, a guy did call my house in the middle of the night only to tell me that he had seen Jesus.

Indeed they don't.

In saying that, there are things to learn by coming here, especially
about yourself. As long as you don't let them get to you. :)

jan.

Who lit the fuse on your tampon?

To be fair, you did come out swinging when you said that all theists were either liars or mentally disturbed. There are certainly more diplomatic ways to start the same type of discussion.

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your God truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that God exists, then we can only assume that God does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

The argument that God as spoken to you or shown himself to you is not evidence because it only pertains to you an you alone. Show me proof that God exists. Heck, even show me some kind of proof that God as contacted you in any way!

I need only ONE person to prove God's existance and I will believe. How does that feel? YOU can be personally responsible for saving my soul! I'm sure that gives you brownie points with God - sure to secure a one-way ticket to Heaven!You suffer from the problems of most Atheists.
Your verification system (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2707547&postcount=1) has some large holes, flaws, fallacies.

In saying that, there are things to learn by coming here, especially
about yourself. As long as you don't let them get to you. :)

jan.

I don't think that's likely. They're not very sharp.

I don't think that's likely. They're not very sharp.

People who can't discuss ideas in any depth may go on to cover this by trying to undermine others abilities, an old ploy that accomplishes nothing in the end, adding zero to their 'truths' that they can't explain anyway, thus that resort.

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your God truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that God exists, then we can only assume that God does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

The argument that God as spoken to you or shown himself to you is not evidence because it only pertains to you an you alone. Show me proof that God exists. Heck, even show me some kind of proof that God as contacted you in any way!

I need only ONE person to prove God's existance and I will believe. How does that feel? YOU can be personally responsible for saving my soul! I'm sure that gives you brownie points with God - sure to secure a one-way ticket to Heaven!

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your back pain truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that your back pain exists, then we can only assume that your back pain does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

The argument that your back pain has spoken to you or shown itself to you is not evidence because it only pertains to you an you alone. Show me proof that your back pain exists. Heck, even show me some kind of proof that your back pain has contacted you in any way!

I need only ONE person to prove your back pain's existance and I will believe. How does that feel?



YOU can be personally responsible for saving my soul!

Duh. You're either just mocking, or you're a fire-and-brimstone theist undercover.

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your God truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that God exists, then we can only assume that God does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

The argument that God as spoken to you or shown himself to you is not evidence because it only pertains to you an you alone. Show me proof that God exists. Heck, even show me some kind of proof that God as contacted you in any way!

I need only ONE person to prove God's existance and I will believe. How does that feel? YOU can be personally responsible for saving my soul! I'm sure that gives you brownie points with God - sure to secure a one-way ticket to Heaven!

Anthropics. We mutually agree that reality exists, so therefore, there must be a God to create reality. Reality does not come from nothing- only nothing is nothing. If God does not exist, then reality would not exist.

I have firsthand experience that there is an afterlife- I had a near-death experience I don't want to get into.

God exists just as sure as you are here. God created reality for His own reasons- probably for company from other sentient life forms like Him.

I am pretty firm in my belief in God.

Anthropics. We mutually agree that reality exists, so therefore, there must be a God to create reality. Reality does not come from nothing- only nothing is nothing. If God does not exist, then reality would not exist.

I have firsthand experience that there is an afterlife- I had a near-death experience I don't want to get into.

God exists just as sure as you are here. God created reality for His own reasons- probably for company from other sentient life forms like Him.

I am pretty firm in my belief in God.

if this is true, then why does prejudice and hatred exist? god must have created that too? why do you think? does he have enemies? is he an enemy to someone else? does he have competitors? and why is it a 'he'?

also, do we give a crap what insects think or the bacteria around us or in our bodies? do we give a crap at all except for how they help us or against us? do we love them? do you love the shit full of living bacteria in your bowels? are you sure god loves all life? and if it created lifeforms, then why so much ugly, nasty and hateful characteristics too? do you know that there are things out there that would kill you without any remorse or care for your suffering or your life? that is in the form of diseases (most are lifeforms), to animals to people. had a nice conversation with cancer or aids lately? they are pretty damn clever and definitely lifeforms. god must have created them too. how about nasty parasites that will ravage you from the inside out?

can't answer those, can ya? that's why it's comforting to only focus on the positive such as god made us so he could have a lovefest. well, that's only if you isolate certain characteristics to define that as god.

Anthropics. We mutually agree that reality exists, so therefore, there must be a God to create reality. Reality does not come from nothing- only nothing is nothing. If God does not exist, then reality would not exist.

There is literally nothing to make the fundamental basics of reality of, and so that must be the only basis.

'God', then, doubly cannot be the basis, for a Mind cannot be a fundamental First.

This cuts out even a Deity at the source.

There's now not even a need to note that absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence for a Theity who is even supposed to be everywhere, doing everything, nor even that the made-up 'non-physical' could even talk the talk of the physical and affect it without itself being physical.

And now all seems to be material, for space was once thought to totally physical, but not material, and perhaps it still is, in a way, if it is inert to material, yet we do note that space anywhere that we can get to, also called the vacuum, is truly only a 'vacuum' that 'tries' to be, but can't ever be, for this so-called vacuum ever fluctuates. Strangely, perhaps, it can still be said, in a way, that it is the vacuum that is fluctuating, since here we bump up against non-existence, but you know what I mean.

'God', then, doubly cannot be the basis, for a Mind cannot be a fundamental First.

Can you state what is fundamental (if not mind or being)?

The ‘vacuum’/vacuum of space, or nothing, if you will, easily qualifies as the only possible prime mover, for it requires nothing before it, as this would just be more nothing, and that it is an infinite and eternal state.

Ageless stuff forever, too, might have been at least nominated as a candidate, but, alas, there is nothing to make it of, and there was no place for definition of its well defined properties, in addition to its total amount.

Still, though take your pick, as both have a forever basis, precluding creation and a Creator, who is also excluded because a Mind, of ultimate complexity, no less, doing planning and creating, of everything, no less, cannot be First.

Why is there something instead of nothing? Because nothing cannot be. The question was stated backwards. The simple states are ever more reactive, and nothing being the simplest state of all, is totally and perfectly unstable and reactive, it apparently requiring a God to hold it intact, but, again, ‘it’ cannot be, and if it could have, then a lack of anything would still be so.

Can you state what is fundamental (if not mind or being)?

A mind of a being, and the rest of the composite, complex operating being is dependent on its sub-systems, and on their parts, and so on, to the first, this being the elemental and the fundamental.

What is fundamental has to be the causeless basis of all on upwards, which some think are electrons/positrons and quarks/anti-quarks (if they exist), and even photons, but I still learn toward the vacuum, meaning not that it isn't there, but that it appears to be a distribution of nothing, emitting positive and negative aspects of polarity of charge and matter/anti-matter.

I would guess that it is charge that nullifies all of existence in the overview, which can never happen in actuality since nothing cannot be or stay.

Now, of course a matter to anti-matter clash produces photons, which is not nothing, yet photons are of an electron and a positron somehow living in peace, with a neutral charge, yet the balance of opposites of charge is still within, as potential nullification, such as with the separated electron(-) and positron(+).

Both electron-positrons and photons seem to be emitted from the vacuum, some going back in, and some remaining rather enduring though reactions with other material. As for quarks/anti-quarks, I don't know if we can see that small yet.

The final result is that there are only two stable matter/anti-matter particles, the electron(-)/positron(+) and the proton(+)/anti-proton(-), which is said to be made of quarks, and one stable energy particle, the photon (neutral).

The ‘vacuum’/vacuum of space, or nothing, if you will, easily qualifies as the only possible prime mover, for it requires nothing before it, as this would just be more nothing, and that it is an infinite and eternal state.

Ageless stuff forever, too, might have been at least nominated as a candidate, but, alas, there is nothing to make it of, and there was no place for definition of its well defined properties, in addition to its total amount.

Still, though take your pick, as both have a forever basis, precluding creation and a Creator, who is also excluded because a Mind, of ultimate complexity, no less, doing planning and creating, of everything, no less, cannot be First.

Why is there something instead of nothing? Because nothing cannot be. The question was stated backwards. The simple states are ever more reactive, and nothing being the simplest state of all, is totally and perfectly unstable and reactive, it apparently requiring a God to hold it intact, but, again, ‘it’ cannot be, and if it could have, then a lack of anything would still be so.


http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000637087/polls_at_first_there_was_nothing_then_it_exploded_ 5949_207100_poll_xlarge.jpeg

A mind of a being, and the rest of the composite, complex operating being is dependent on its sub-systems, and on their parts, and so on, to the first, this being the elemental and the fundamental.

What is fundamental has to be the causeless basis of all on upwards, which some think are electrons/positrons and quarks/anti-quarks (if they exist), and even photons, but I still learn toward the vacuum, meaning not that it isn't there, but that it appears to be a distribution of nothing, emitting positive and negative aspects of polarity of charge and matter/anti-matter.

I would guess that it is charge that nullifies all of existence in the overview, which can never happen in actuality since nothing cannot be or stay.

Now, of course a matter to anti-matter clash produces photons, which is not nothing, yet photons are of an electron and a positron somehow living in peace, with a neutral charge, yet the balance of opposites of charge is still within, as potential nullification, such as with the separated electron(-) and positron(+).

Both electron-positrons and photons seem to be emitted from the vacuum, some going back in, and some remaining rather enduring though reactions with other material. As for quarks/anti-quarks, I don't know if we can see that small yet.

The final result is that there are only two stable matter/anti-matter particles, the electron(-)/positron(+) and the proton(+)/anti-proton(-), which is said to be made of quarks, and one stable energy particle, the photon (neutral).

And the human sense of self is an illusion, a mere epiphenomenon?

if this is true, then why does prejudice and hatred exist? god must have created that too? why do you think? does he have enemies? is he an enemy to someone else? does he have competitors? and why is it a 'he'?

also, do we give a crap what insects think or the bacteria around us or in our bodies? do we give a crap at all except for how they help us or against us? do we love them? do you love the shit full of living bacteria in your bowels? are you sure god loves all life? and if it created lifeforms, then why so much ugly, nasty and hateful characteristics too? do you know that there are things out there that would kill you without any remorse or care for your suffering or your life? that is in the form of diseases (most are lifeforms), to animals to people. had a nice conversation with cancer or aids lately? they are pretty damn clever and definitely lifeforms. god must have created them too. how about nasty parasites that will ravage you from the inside out?

can't answer those, can ya? that's why it's comforting to only focus on the positive such as god made us so he could have a lovefest. well, that's only if you isolate certain characteristics to define that as god.

Whoa whoa- I am not a hippie and I don't believe in "peace love and dope, man". God made the universe so the universe could make sentient beings. I think this pretty much answers all your questions.

There is literally nothing to make the fundamental basics of reality of, and so that must be the only basis.

'God', then, doubly cannot be the basis, for a Mind cannot be a fundamental First.

This cuts out even a Deity at the source.

There's now not even a need to note that absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence for a Theity who is even supposed to be everywhere, doing everything, nor even that the made-up 'non-physical' could even talk the talk of the physical and affect it without itself being physical.

And now all seems to be material, for space was once thought to totally physical, but not material, and perhaps it still is, in a way, if it is inert to material, yet we do note that space anywhere that we can get to, also called the vacuum, is truly only a 'vacuum' that 'tries' to be, but can't ever be, for this so-called vacuum ever fluctuates. Strangely, perhaps, it can still be said, in a way, that it is the vacuum that is fluctuating, since here we bump up against non-existence, but you know what I mean.

I made no claims to "God's powers"- you did. And something does not come from nothing- it's nonsense to believe it does. Puppy dogs don't spontaneously appear out of thin air.

Puppy dogs don't spontaneously appear out of thin air.

I beg to differ. It happens around here all the time. Cheeky little bastards.

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your back pain truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that your back pain exists, then we can only assume that your back pain does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

The argument that your back pain has spoken to you or shown itself to you is not evidence because it only pertains to you an you alone. Show me proof that your back pain exists. Heck, even show me some kind of proof that your back pain has contacted you in any way!

I need only ONE person to prove your back pain's existance and I will believe. How does that feel?
It is a good argument.I appreciate it.

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your God truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that God exists, then we can only assume that God does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

So you aim to debate your lack of faith with liars and mentally disturbed individuals because?

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your God truly exists?

If you cannot prove to me or anyone outside of yourself that God exists, then we can only assume that God does not exist and that you are either a) lying, or b) mentally disturbed.

The argument that God as spoken to you or shown himself to you is not evidence because it only pertains to you an you alone. Show me proof that God exists. Heck, even show me some kind of proof that God as contacted you in any way!

I need only ONE person to prove God's existance and I will believe. How does that feel? YOU can be personally responsible for saving my soul! I'm sure that gives you brownie points with God - sure to secure a one-way ticket to Heaven!
Alright, let's turn tables....

Athiests: Prove that God dosen't exist

No emotional answers are allowed. Nine examples of emotional answers:

God dosen't exist because there is evil/suffering/death.
God dosen't exist because believers are hypocrites.
God dosen't exist because believers can't prove God exists.
God dosen't exist because I have never seen or felt God.
God dosen't exist because my prayers aren't answered.
God dosen't exist because Christians killed people in the Inquisition/Crusade/ancient time.
God dosen't exist because the Bible is man-made/corrupted.
God dosen't exist because God killed people in the Bible.
God dosen't exist because Jesus is not God.

Besides emotional answers, you are free to answer any way you wish.

So you aim to debate your lack of faith with liars and mentally disturbed individuals because?

Ha! :xctd:


I wonder what happened to him, though. Not so long ago he was all lovey-dovey "I believe in God and love and peace" - and now it's as if he has become someone else.

Whoa whoa- I am not a hippie and I don't believe in "peace love and dope, man". God made the universe so the universe could make sentient beings. I think this pretty much answers all your questions.

for what? what is your reasoning for making sentient beings?

Alright, let's turn tables....

Athiests: Prove that God dosen't exist

No emotional answers are allowed. Nine examples of emotional answers:

God dosen't exist because there is evil/suffering/death.
God dosen't exist because believers are hypocrites.
God dosen't exist because believers can't prove God exists.
God dosen't exist because I have never seen or felt God.
God dosen't exist because my prayers aren't answered.
God dosen't exist because Christians killed people in the Inquisition/Crusade/ancient time.
God dosen't exist because the Bible is man-made/corrupted.
God dosen't exist because God killed people in the Bible.
God dosen't exist because Jesus is not God.

Besides emotional answers, you are free to answer any way you wish.

Not necessarily the problem is the existence of God or not.
For the sake of the discussion we can make the assumption that there exists a god.
But from this assumption until different religions, is a long way.
By what reasoning these people have reached to different religions from an assumption?

Not necessarily the problem is the existence of God or not.
For the sake of the discussion we can make the assumption that there exists a god.
But from this assumption until different religions, is a long way.
By what reasoning these people have reached to different religions from an assumption?

This is something I am very much interested in too.

An individual's transition from natural theology to a specific religious tradition seems quite mysterious.

This is something I am very much interested in too.

An individual's transition from natural theology to a specific religious tradition seems quite mysterious.

Maybe one day some of us will be interested to analyze the possibility of the existence of a god.
But that is another topic that does not belong to the religion forum.
Maybe in the philosophy forum, glaucon will allow us such a discussion.

You suffer from the problems of most Atheists.
Your verification system (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2707547&postcount=1) has some large holes, flaws, fallacies.

Who said I was an atheist?


Anthropics. We mutually agree that reality exists, so therefore, there must be a God to create reality. Reality does not come from nothing- only nothing is nothing. If God does not exist, then reality would not exist.

I have firsthand experience that there is an afterlife- I had a near-death experience I don't want to get into.

God exists just as sure as you are here. God created reality for His own reasons- probably for company from other sentient life forms like Him.

I am pretty firm in my belief in God.

Hmmm you're simply filling the void of lack of knowledge with a god.


Alright, let's turn tables....

Athiests: Prove that God dosen't exist

No emotional answers are allowed. Nine examples of emotional answers:

God dosen't exist because there is evil/suffering/death.
God dosen't exist because believers are hypocrites.
God dosen't exist because believers can't prove God exists.
God dosen't exist because I have never seen or felt God.
God dosen't exist because my prayers aren't answered.
God dosen't exist because Christians killed people in the Inquisition/Crusade/ancient time.
God dosen't exist because the Bible is man-made/corrupted.
God dosen't exist because God killed people in the Bible.
God dosen't exist because Jesus is not God.

Besides emotional answers, you are free to answer any way you wish.

First and foremost, most atheists I know don't say there is not a god. They don't make the affirmation one way or another. They simply say there is no proof of a god so I don't believe in god. Belief does not equal facts.


So you aim to debate your lack of faith with liars and mentally disturbed individuals because?

I never said I wanted to debate. I simply want proof. Going back to my earlier statement. Theists think they KNOW god exists. If you believe without a doubt that god exists, provide evidence that it does. I never said god does or does not exist. I don't know either way. But I am curious as to why certain people do, not only believe, but affirm without question or doubt that god exists.


Ha! :xctd:


I wonder what happened to him, though. Not so long ago he was all lovey-dovey "I believe in God and love and peace" - and now it's as if he has become someone else.

Nope, I'm still the same person, just with a renewed frustration as to why theists call god a fact without any proof.

Boy.

1. It is clear you are "non-religious" therefore it doesent matter if your "athiest", "agnostic" or whatever label you conform to. The fact is : your attacking religious thinking because it cannot be proven under the scope of emperical evidence. Understand this: Religion and "the big bang" theory or whatever theory you believe in regarding our origin - fundamentally REQUIRES BLIND FAITH. Unless you understand things in there entirety or even partially don't make claims with such certainty.

I ask you to prove your assertion that god does not exist.

Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion

Can you do this?

NO

Joey, they hijacked the word "evidence". And other words too. They now mean what they deem them to mean.

Hmmm, for some reason I am craving an apple!

And the human sense of self is an illusion, a mere epiphenomenon?

Particles are real, and so all of the composites made of them are real as well, and whatever effects become of them. There are brain areas that identify the self as opposed to what is not. These are the areas that can be mostly quieted by meditation, miminalizing the notion of the self and also its boundaries. You might then feel one with the cosmos it there is any 'you' left to notice. This is only a neurological effect and has been measured in trained Buddhist monks.


And, a yes to ex nihilo. Particles pop in and out of existence all the time in the quantum mechanical realm.


So it is that science has explanations whereas the religious have none.

Clearly, either the basic stuff was around forever or it was created. No other choices.

There are problems with original stuff having been around forever, such as what could have determined its total amount, as well as its individual properties, leaving this ‘solution’ very incomplete, and invariably wrong because it is not complete.

So, the basis stuff has to be created, yet there is nothing to make it of. To confirm what we already know that we will see, we note such things as that the basics are of opposite charge and of opposite matter/anti-matter.

The prime mover of the vacuum has been found. Done. Only more details remain to be investigated, but now we know better how to look for them. Otherwise, one could have a lot of trouble comprehending the cosmos without first knowing why and how it exists.

As we then move upward to more complexity, all is then explained via chemistry, physics, evolution, and the rest of the sciences.

I ask you to prove your assertion that god does not exist.

Just out of curiosity, what would proof of God's non-existence look like (to you)?

Out of curiosity, answer the fucking question.

Boy.

1. It is clear you are "non-religious" therefore it doesent matter if your "athiest", "agnostic" or whatever label you conform to. The fact is : your attacking religious thinking because it cannot be proven under the scope of emperical evidence. Understand this: Religion and "the big bang" theory or whatever theory you believe in regarding our origin - fundamentally REQUIRES BLIND FAITH. Unless you understand things in there entirety or even partially don't make claims with such certainty.

I ask you to prove your assertion that god does not exist.

Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion

Can you do this?

NO

This post of yours was entirely worthless in this discussion.

I'm only going to say this one last time. I'm not saying god does or does not exist. I could, for all intensive purposes, could be Christian, Muslim, Hindu or anything else. It doesn't matter what I am or what I believe. My belief either way is irrelevant in this discussion. I'm simply curious as to why most theists say that god DOES exist without question or doubt; that it is a FACT that god exists. So, if it is fact in there eyes that god exists, and all facts come from evidence, then provide the evidence that the existence of god is a truth and not simply a belief or opinion.

So, you can avoid the question all you want by attempting to turn the tables. But I will not respond to anyone's attempt to do so.

Simply answer the question and provide evidence. If you cannot, or if you choose to answer the question with a question, I will ignore your posts because they do not contribute to this discussion and is a waste of my time.

"BLIND FAITH" is not even a good answer, much less any kind of proof. It suggests an emotional condition, and that, too, can be explained by science.

Out of curiosity, answer the fucking question.

Is that the best you've got? I've been subjected to more impactful interrogation by my Grandmother.

Is that the best you've got? I've been subjected to more impactful interrogation by my Grandmother.

:spank:

Boy.

1. It is clear you are "non-religious" therefore it doesent matter if your "athiest", "agnostic" or whatever label you conform to. The fact is : your attacking religious thinking because it cannot be proven under the scope of emperical evidence. Understand this: Religion and "the big bang" theory or whatever theory you believe in regarding our origin - fundamentally REQUIRES BLIND FAITH. Unless you understand things in there entirety or even partially don't make claims with such certainty.

I ask you to prove your assertion that god does not exist.

Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion

Can you do this?

NO

Oh, and furthermore, I'm not attacking religious thinking. I'm tired of people equating blunt curiosity and query with attacking. Can one not ask questions in regard to religion? Just because you have blind faith and chose not to understand why you believe, it doesn't mean that others cant question you or whatever religious teachings you chose to uphold.

In regard to your words on "origin", who says I have to believe in anything? Sure, I believe evolution and tend to believe in the scientific views of the big bang theory. Why? Because it makes sense to me. However, I also acknowledge that when it comes down to ultimate evidence, that there aren't many facts available (...regarding the big bang theory; evolution has been proven). So, since I am aware that the big bang theory is just that, a theory, I don't acknowledge it as fact nor to I ever present it as such. And that is the key fundamental difference between my methodology and that if a Theist who labels God as a proven fact when, in fact, it is not.


So, in summary and for the sake of encouraging discussion, my inquiry can be rephrased as such: Why do (most) Theists state that the existence of God is a fact instead of simply acknowledging that it is simply an unproven belief and that God may OR may not exist?

So, in summary and for the sake of encouraging discussion, my inquiry can be rephrased as such: Why do (most) Theists state that the existence of God is a fact instead of simply acknowledging that it is simply an unproven belief and that God may OR may not exist?

Maybe because some believers would then no longer believe, and then leave the church and the Church.

:spank:

that looks like fun , can I be the spanker.

The ask is important you know .

How to prove or disprove an existence of and intelligence that governs the universe? Interesting .
Some might think the 11 occurrence might be , but others would debate that this is the red car phenomenon ( Buy red car and see more red cars )
If we could prove we where meant to be here would that be evidence ?
If we could prove even one person was meant to be here would that be evidence?
I think there is a creator , Every part of Me and ever thing else tells me there is . Is this self delusions ? Red car phenomenon gone wild ?

I think there is a creator

But, then what? How, What, Why, Where, Then, When, and Who?

O.K. another Me story. Me and my step bro when we were in our early 20s we like to take the gamblers special to Reno and shoot craps and we would make it back to Sacramento just in time to go to work ( don't miss those days of wild never sleep crash hard times of party party party) So anyway we where sitting on a bench at Sacramento City college and it was just before a class in economics . He pulled out 5 quarters out of his pocket and said since it is to late to catch the gamblers special to Reno lets drive to Lake Tahoe and have some fun. I replied No lets just go to class and I can get a good nights sleep and feel like a normal human would feel . So as I was talking he was flipping the quarters up in the air like a kind of juggling move. Then he said " If I throw these 5 quarters on the ground and they all come up heads then we will go to Tahoe. So I said let Me examine the quarters first to make sure you don't have trick quarters as you could never be sure with a serious gambler ( if you saw that movie about the card counters , well he worked in one of the crews as a card counter team out of San Francisco) Anyway the quarters were fine and nothing out of the ordinary. So I took the bet . He trows the quarters about 2 feet in the air and they hit the concrete hard and bounce around until they come to there final stop and I was jerking out of my seat as they all came up friggen heads . So off we went thinking " we are going to win big" Lady luck is on our side tonight. Well we lost our weekly pay checks and as we came out of the Casino we see the truck sitting there thinking the attendant saw us coming and brought up our rig for us . Not so! we had a flat tire and it was sitting right where we left it when we went into the casino. Out of money and no spare tire. So we take to bumming money with our hands out to get enough to get the flat fixed . We needed about 5 dollars to make it happen . After about 2 hours of bumming we had nothing and it was evident I was not going to make it to work . Soon as I realized this 2 hookers I knew from Sacramento come strolling out of the casino looking like Angels from God . They got a real laugh and after much teasing they gave us the money to get the tire fixed. We cut the trips to Tahoe and Reno down to a minimum after that little lesson .
The moral :
It don't prove God exists to you , but it sure made Me wonder ?

It proves hookers, and that some have money, as well as that the bad odds of gambling can catch up.

Hope the hookers got what they wanted: to watch you re-tire from gambling.

No God:

Why? A Being cannot be first. Only ‘nothing’ can be first.

How? Positive/negative balance about zero.

What? Vacuum fluctuations emitting balanced particle pairs and photons, since nothing cannot stay as so, being perfectly unstable.

When, Then? Always.

Where? Everywhere.

Who? Life that evolves.


History/Future? Everything possible. Over and over again.


Beginning/End? No.


Bounds large/small? No.


What to do during life? Live.


After death? You are dead, your atoms get used for other things.


Don’t like all this? Make things up for glory and reward.

It proves hookers, and that some have money, as well as that the bad odds of gambling can catch up.

Hope the hookers got what they wanted: to watch you re-tire from gambling.

I can tell you have never tried to get money from a hooker

I can tell you have never tried to get money from a hooker

No, for I always thought all the money went in their direction.

I think you may have performed a miracle.

No, for I always thought all the money went in their direction.

I think you may have performed a miracle.

That was my conclusion too. It was not Me . It had to be a higher power and not there pimp either. He was not anywhere to be found on that cold day at the lake . I would think if there pimp knew he would have beat there ? You know how pimps can be . They don't go for that kind of behavior out of there working girls.

It was not Me . It had to be a higher power and not there pimp either.

Let us not leap to ultimate conclusions.

Hookers are people, too, and can be kind.

We really need some better 'proofs'.

Let us not leap to ultimate conclusions.

Hookers are people, too, and can be kind.

We really need some better 'proofs'.

Yeah I know ! Sorry Any of you hookers out there. You know I love you .

Thinking? Might have to see what tomorrow brings. I will consult the dream weavers tonight.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv6/austintorn/palace002F72.jpg

Penance for Mi-Ki-Gal

If you believe without a doubt that god exists, provide evidence that it does.

Why should the people who believe in God prove to you that he exists?

Really - on the grounds of what do you think they owe it to you to prove God's existence to you?



Nope, I'm still the same person, just with a renewed frustration as to why theists call god a fact without any proof.

Do you know what "spiritual envy" is?
Google it.

So, you can avoid the question all you want by attempting to turn the tables. But I will not respond to anyone's attempt to do so.

http://www.sciforums.com/picture.php?albumid=70&pictureid=820



Oh, and furthermore, I'm not attacking religious thinking. I'm tired of people equating blunt curiosity and query with attacking. Can one not ask questions in regard to religion? Just because you have blind faith and chose not to understand why you believe, it doesn't mean that others cant question you or whatever religious teachings you chose to uphold.

In regard to your words on "origin", who says I have to believe in anything? Sure, I believe evolution and tend to believe in the scientific views of the big bang theory. Why? Because it makes sense to me. However, I also acknowledge that when it comes down to ultimate evidence, that there aren't many facts available (...regarding the big bang theory; evolution has been proven). So, since I am aware that the big bang theory is just that, a theory, I don't acknowledge it as fact nor to I ever present it as such. And that is the key fundamental difference between my methodology and that if a Theist who labels God as a proven fact when, in fact, it is not.

So, in summary and for the sake of encouraging discussion, my inquiry can be rephrased as such: Why do (most) Theists state that the existence of God is a fact instead of simply acknowledging that it is simply an unproven belief and that God may OR may not exist?

Boy, have you got an attitude!

I emphatize with your frustration and share it. But being bitchy like you are isn't going to accomplish much.

[IMG]

Boy, have you got an attitude!

I emphasize with your frustration and share it. But being bitchy like you are isn't going to accomplish much.

How am I being bitchy? Blunt? Yes. Challenging? Certainly. Intellectually stimulating? You betcha! But bitchy? Hardly.

And nothing personal but you've been one of the major players who've attempted to hijack this thread, deter the main inquiry and topic by avoiding the question and instead have focused on me. In all reality, the thread is aimed at you, the reader. And as such, you, the reader, have failed to actively partake as a productive member of this conversation.

The question is simple. If you see it as a fact that God exists, provide evidence supporting your claim. Furthermore, I encourage discussion as to why certain people make the existence of God a fact instead of accepting the belief that sure, they BELIEVE god exists, but it is NOT a FACT and that there is always the possibility that God does not exist. That's it! Its really not that hard. So stop shying away from the topic and participate.

And nothing personal but you've been one of the major players who've attempted to hijack this thread, deter the main inquiry and topic by avoiding the question and instead have focused on me.

It is about you.
It's not about just any person, it's about you.
Your current values, beliefs, goals, intentions, attitudes, circumstances.



In all reality, the thread is aimed at you, the reader. And as such, you, the reader, have failed to actively partake as a productive member of this conversation.

Proof does not occur in a vacuum.



The question is simple. If you see it as a fact that God exists, provide evidence supporting your claim. Furthermore, I encourage discussion as to why certain people make the existence of God a fact instead of accepting the belief that sure, they BELIEVE god exists, but it is NOT a FACT and that there is always the possibility that God does not exist. That's it! Its really not that hard. So stop shying away from the topic and participate.

Stop thinking so much about what other people believe or don't believe, and instead focus on what you believe or don't believe.

It is about you.
It's not about just any person, it's about you.
Your current values, beliefs, goals, intentions, attitudes, circumstances.




Proof does not occur in a vacuum.




Stop thinking so much about what other people believe or don't believe, and instead focus on what you believe or don't believe.

I know exactly what I believe. Its because I'm confident and comfortable with my beliefs that I am able to openly inquire about the beliefs of others.

So. Now that we've cleared that up would you mind finally answering my question?

I know exactly what I believe. Its because I'm confident and comfortable with my beliefs that I am able to openly inquire about the beliefs of others.

Yeah, strangers on the internet really are people whose beliefs you are deeply interested in ...

So. Now that we've cleared that up would you mind finally answering my question?

If you really "know exactly what you believe" and you're really "confident and comfortable with your beliefs", then there is no question, except 1. if you're really interested in getting to know people (which doesn't seem to be the case here, because you're asking generalized quesitons about theists as such), or 2. you have an actual philosophical inquiry, but are not framing it as such.

If you really "know exactly what you believe" and you're really "confident and comfortable with your beliefs", then there is no question, except 1. if you're really interested in getting to know people (which doesn't seem to be the case here, because you're asking generalized quesitons about theists as such), or 2. you have an actual philosophical inquiry, but are not framing it as such.


Well, if you read my previous posts and the main question it contains, you'll see the inquiry is "framed" or structured appropriately. Its an honest question that can't be asked any other way. So, I will repeat myself for 4th time and ask 'Why do most theist present the existence of God as a fact instead of acknowledging the possibility that God may not, in fact, exist? Again, a simple yet precise question, one of which you've ignored and have instead attempted to analyze the inquirer and not the inquiry.

'Why do most theist present the existence of God as a fact instead of acknowledging the possibility that God may not, in fact, exist?

Because they don't have the same doubts as you.

Because they don't have the same doubts as you.

Obviosuly. But what evidence do they have to make such a huge claim that god is not just a possibility but a reality? Because they've been told so? If I told you that I've talked to beings from another galaxy would you believe me or would you require proof? Obviously we would require evidence. So, why do we not require the same level of proof from theists?

More importantly, why do they not require the same level of proof as they would in the scenario of aliens?

http://www.sciforums.com/picture.php?albumid=70&pictureid=820




Boy, have you got an attitude!

I emphatize with your frustration and share it. But being bitchy like you are isn't going to accomplish much.

Oh that is funny!!! I don't think it is a good idea to teach children things like that. Might come back to haunt you. Oh I am still laughing though

THE UNIVERSAL ACID…

As a boy in Dan Dennet’s chemistry class, I wondered, as did many, about the following scenario often dreamt of: I mixed two compounds, which, unfortunately, produced the ultimate acid. Nothing could contain it. It quickly ate though the container, the floor of the laboratory, and then even all the way through the Earth, eventually sloshing some poor sap in China.

This, too is what happens to us, through education, as our chemical-bio-electric nature is revealed to us, like some kind of giant shock, after which we may never be the same again, as perhaps some are now reeling from, well, maybe just a little bit.

The biochemical mush that is us, when fully realized, leaves us stunned and astounded. We grasp for what we once thought we were before, but, it eludes us in the new light of learning. The universal acid of such knowledge eats through all superstitions, folk tales, and myths. Nothing can contain it. We may come to even regret our learnings of this condition, for it dissolves our container, leaving us floundering in the lurch.

It happened to me, too, beginning in fifth grade, in Catholic shcool.

But, wait, it’s not so bad, is it, for what we are is what we are, and we still have feelings, personality, and more adventures of learning that await. The light of education ever shines brightly, wherever it may lead. Many dark alleys remain to be explored, given our new insights into the human condition.

Obviosuly. But what evidence do they have to make such a huge claim that god is not just a possibility but a reality?

Then ask them. Ask them directly.

Send out invitations to all the theists on this board and ask them about this.


Ask -
"SAM, what evidence do you have to make such a huge claim that god is not just a possibility but a reality?"
"Adstar, what evidence do you have to make such a huge claim that god is not just a possibility but a reality?"
"Lightgigantic, what evidence do you have to make such a huge claim that god is not just a possibility but a reality?"
and so on.



If I told you that I've talked to beings from another galaxy would you believe me or would you require proof?

Unless you were my friend, relative, boss or otherwise relevant to me, I wouldn't care.



Obviously we would require evidence. So, why do we not require the same level of proof from theists?

I don't know. Why don't you?

(or did you mean to ask - "So, why may we not require the same level of proof from theists?")



More importantly, why do they not require the same level of proof as they would in the scenario of aliens?

Ask them.

When debating the existence of God, the non-believer often demands evidence. He usually means by that proof delivered by science, which, in his view, is the most solid (and sometimes the only) reliable source of knowledge.

In my view, he is like the boy in the school yard who sees other kids run off and asks them where they're going, and when the kids tell the boy that the icecream van is around the corner and want him to come along, stubbornly shakes his head and says: No, I haven't heard the bell ring yet.

Does the boy really need to hear the bell ring before he can trust the existence of the icecream van? There seems to be no irrefutable scientific proof for the existence of God. But, is that really needed, considering that the majority of humans believe in His existence nonetheless? Doesn't the non-believer want his life and actions to have meaning? Doesn't he want eternal life, eternal happiness, fulfillment of all desire?

Non-believers, don't wait for the bell to ring, please come, and have icecream with us!

What evidence, solid scientific, universally proven evidence do you have that your God truly exists?

Be patient. In the long run, you will have all the proof you need. And an eternity to ponder it.

When debating the existence of God, the non-believer often demands evidence. He usually means by that proof delivered by science, which, in his view, is the most solid (and sometimes the only) reliable source of knowledge.

In my view, he is like the boy in the school yard who sees other kids run off and asks them where they're going, and when the kids tell the boy that the icecream van is around the corner and want him to come along, stubbornly shakes his head and says: No, I haven't heard the bell ring yet.

Does the boy really need to hear the bell ring before he can trust the existence of the icecream van? There seems to be no irrefutable scientific proof for the existence of God. But, is that really needed, considering that the majority of humans believe in His existence nonetheless? Doesn't the non-believer want his life and actions to have meaning? Doesn't he want eternal life, eternal happiness, fulfillment of all desire?

Non-believers, don't wait for the bell to ring, please come, and have icecream with us!

While that might seem like a nice approach, it does not work with those who have bad experiences with theists. And many people have bad experiences with theists.

In fact, one of the first experiences that many people have with theists is that the theists abused their trust.
Not only that, all too often, newcomers are expected to trust and to continue to trust despite being betrayed.

Many newcomers leave after having been betrayed too much.

Some people resort to trust substitutes (http://changingminds.org/explanations/trust/trust_substitutes.htm) in order to be able to continue their involvement with theism and theists.
The general trust substitutes are listed in the link; specific to theism, I think a frequent trust substitute is an anxious reliance on philosophical understanding and anxiously seeking empirical proof.

Note that many people rely on philosophical understanding and seeking empirical proof, and there needs to be some measure of both.
But when a person does so anxiously, then this is a sign that something is wrong.

More importantly, why do they not require the same level of proof as they would in the scenario of aliens?

People generally believe in things for two kinds of reasons: 1. empirical, 2. moral.

When it comes to things like cooking, cleaning, cars, building houses or fixing rotten teeth, we go for empirically tested approaches.

But when it comes to things like free will, justice, goodness, we tend to believe things for moral reasons (even when they are directly opposed to empirical findings).
For example, people generally believe we have free will. There is no conclusive empirical evidence that we in fact have free will, moreover, some studies suggest we do not have it. But we believe we have free will anyway.

Similarly, some people believe in God on the grounds of moral arguments (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-arguments-god/).

E.g., from the above link:

Argument IX:

32. It would be demoralizing not to believe there is a moral order to the universe.
33. Demoralization is morally undesirable.
34. There is a moral advantage in believing that there is a moral order in the universe.
35. Theism provides the best theory of the source of moral order.
36. Therefore there is a moral advantage in accepting theism. (Adams 1987, 151)

Then ask them. Ask them directly.

Send out invitations to all the theists on this board and ask them about this.


Ask -
"SAM, what evidence do you have to make such a huge claim that god is not just a possibility but a reality?"
"Adstar, what evidence do you have to make such a huge claim that god is not just a possibility but a reality?"
"Lightgigantic, what evidence do you have to make such a huge claim that god is not just a possibility but a reality?"
and so on.




Unless you were my friend, relative, boss or otherwise relevant to me, I wouldn't care.




I don't know. Why don't you?

(or did you mean to ask - "So, why may we not require the same level of proof from theists?")




Ask them.

That's exactly what I'm doing here.


When debating the existence of God, the non-believer often demands evidence. He usually means by that proof delivered by science, which, in his view, is the most solid (and sometimes the only) reliable source of knowledge.

In my view, he is like the boy in the school yard who sees other kids run off and asks them where they're going, and when the kids tell the boy that the icecream van is around the corner and want him to come along, stubbornly shakes his head and says: No, I haven't heard the bell ring yet.

Does the boy really need to hear the bell ring before he can trust the existence of the icecream van? There seems to be no irrefutable scientific proof for the existence of God. But, is that really needed, considering that the majority of humans believe in His existence nonetheless? Doesn't the non-believer want his life and actions to have meaning? Doesn't he want eternal life, eternal happiness, fulfillment of all desire?

Non-believers, don't wait for the bell to ring, please come, and have icecream with us!

Who said I don't believe in God? Who said I do? The world isn't so black and white as both atheists and theists alike tend to make it. Just because I question peoples judgement doesn't mean that I don't have a faith of my own. Again, I have no problem with people believing that it is likely that God exists; key word: believing. However, I am curious as to why so many people make the existence of a God a fact or a truth when they have little to no firm evidence to support their own truth.


Be patient. In the long run, you will have all the proof you need. And an eternity to ponder it.

You say this as a fact. You didn't say I MIGHT have an eternity to ponder it. You said I WILL. Ok, what proof do you have that would suggest that I have an eternal soul? What makes you 100% sure that what you call fact really is?


People generally believe in things for two kinds of reasons: 1. empirical, 2. moral.

When it comes to things like cooking, cleaning, cars, building houses or fixing rotten teeth, we go for empirically tested approaches.

But when it comes to things like free will, justice, goodness, we tend to believe things for moral reasons (even when they are directly opposed to empirical findings).
For example, people generally believe we have free will. There is no conclusive empirical evidence that we in fact have free will, moreover, some studies suggest we do not have it. But we believe we have free will anyway.

Similarly, some people believe in God on the grounds of moral arguments (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-arguments-god/).

E.g., from the above link:

Interesting. Now we are getting somewhere. :) Give me a little time to respond to this. I'm at work and things are starting to pick up. I will respond as soon as I am able.

If you ask Me free will is a urban myth.

House building is not very scientific either. It is still pretty primitive and subject to constant change. House building is more of a shoot from the hip kind of business. especially custom house building . Track housing can be refined , but methodology is still primitive. So consider the track housing that has a repeated flaw in one or more of the models . To make the correction before all the houses are built is a monumental task because of production procedures. The correction needs to be made before the start of the project or chances are you will have to retrofit the fix or just deny it exists like a lot of builders do. This is difficulty unless you can see the product in all its element in advance. The best of engineers and Architects think they can see in there minds start to finish . This is a delusion of there profession. Reality is the egg before the chicken and the chicken before the egg. Builders and Mechanics know this and have to deal on a day to day bases .

Note : there are engineers and architects that do get pretty close to seeing the whole picture and if there heads are not to big they might even listen to supporting industries as to get a much clearer picture

Non-believers, don't wait for the bell to ring, please come, and have icecream with us!

There will always be ice cream, and ever the material, but nothing more.


THE ETERNAL RETURN…

Behind the veil, being that which ev’r thrives, the eternal multi-cycle has ever been alive. Some time it needed to learn everything for, and now well knows how these bubbles to pour, of existence in some meant universe, those that wrote your poem and mine, every verse.

So, as thus, thou lives on yester’s credit line, in nowhere’s midst—now in this life of thine, as of its bowl our cup of brew was mixed into this state of being that’s called “mine”. Yet worry you that this cosmos is the last, that the likes of us will become the past, space wondering whither whence we went after the last of us her life has spent?

The eternal Saki-Cycle has thus formed trillions of baubles like ours, and will form, forevermore—the comings and passings of which it ever emits to immerse in those universal bubbles blown and burst. So, fear not that a debit close your account and mine, knowing the like no more; the eternal cycle from its pot has pour’d zillions of bubbles like ours, and will pour.

When you and I behind the cloak are past, but the long while the next universe shall last, which of one’s approach and departure it grasps as might the sea’s self heed a pebble-cast.

There will always be ice cream, and ever the material, but nothing more.


THE ETERNAL RETURN…

Behind the veil, being that which ev’r thrives, the eternal multi-cycle has ever been alive. Some time it needed to learn everything for, and now well knows how these bubbles to pour, of existence in some meant universe, those that wrote your poem and mine, every verse.

So, as thus, thou lives on yester’s credit line, in nowhere’s midst—now in this life of thine, as of its bowl our cup of brew was mixed into this state of being that’s called “mine”. Yet worry you that this cosmos is the last, that the likes of us will become the past, space wondering whither whence we went after the last of us her life has spent?

The eternal Saki-Cycle has thus formed trillions of baubles like ours, and will form, forevermore—the comings and passings of which it ever emits to immerse in those universal bubbles blown and burst. So, fear not that a debit close your account and mine, knowing the like no more; the eternal cycle from its pot has pour’d zillions of bubbles like ours, and will pour.

When you and I behind the cloak are past, but the long while the next universe shall last, which of one’s approach and departure it grasps as might the sea’s self heed a pebble-cast.

I think you should change the " mine " to "You" in the second verse and change the next line to " Yet worry Me that the cosmos is the last

Since there is a universe here, at any old non special time, there will always be one, and there always has.


Be of good cheer—the sullen month will die, and a young moon requite us by and by: look how the old one meagre, bent, and wan, with age and fast, is fainting from the sky! (A Fitzgerald quatrain that’s not in his Rubaiyat of Omar)


Yet worry Me-Ki-Gal that the cosmos is the last…

That's exactly what I'm doing here.

But you're not getting many responses from theists.



Interesting. Now we are getting somewhere. :) Give me a little time to respond to this. I'm at work and things are starting to pick up. I will respond as soon as I am able.

Did you read the link? Did you find it useful?

Interesting. Now we are getting somewhere. Give me a little time to respond to this. I'm at work and things are starting to pick up. I will respond as soon as I am able.

no, you are the one who is correct. it's that your opening post was not taking into account that a belief in a entity/god can't be proven or disproven.

one can say it's a faith and there are those of religions who honestly say it's a faith/belief when asked and not a fact that can be proven or disproven. it's much like one who says they have faith that they will be reunited with a dead relative etc. religion can be used to some extent to feed our emotional and moral nature or to pursue that development.

there is nothing to argue there or it shouldn't be argued but respected. i can tell the reason why you started this thread was because of the theists who consistently post that say their god is a fact.

that would be different if one went to a church and demanded they prove their god is a fact. if they are not bothering anyone or shoving it in your face that it is a fact, then there really is not a problem or anything to argue about.

when theists make the decision to claim their version of god is the only one to "everyone" else, then it's their responsibility to validate their claims.

no, you are the one who is correct. it's that your opening post was not taking into account that a belief in a entity/god can't be proven or disproven.

one can say it's a faith and there are those of religions who honestly say it's a faith/belief when asked and not a fact that can be proven or disproven. it's much like one who says they have faith that they will be reunited with a dead relative etc. religion can be used to some extent to feed our emotional and moral nature or to pursue that development.

there is nothing to argue there or it shouldn't be argued but respected. i can tell the reason why you started this thread was because of the theists who consistently post that say their god is a fact.

that would be different if one went to a church and demanded they prove their god is a fact. if they are not bothering anyone or shoving it in your face that it is a fact, then there really is not a problem or anything to argue about.

when theists make the decision to claim their version of god is the only one to "everyone" else, then it's their responsibility to validate their claims.

Agreed.