Is all actions classified by the west as terrorist actions are so?
Israel for example took an Arab land; at the end Arab accepted the idea of having this country there (in some how), Although it still seizing some of Arab lands.
Arab have enough power to get rid of Israel, but the American support to Israel prevent that. America even will not accept for a Muslim country to have mass destruction weapons where it did help Israel having about 200 nuclear bombs. The west always considered any action against Israel as a terrorist one, even when it’s self-diffence. Thank god I do talk several languages, so I don’t have to stick with one side source in matter of searching for the truth. Israeli terrorist against civilians can’t be seen through the western’s media. The American media can even show some bad actions taken by its own government but when it comes to Israel, no way to show their bad moves.
Arab do believe with their right to reply for the aggressive attitudes against them. My point in all that is: -
The traditional way of thinking has diverged seriously through the last few years. Arab used to say these actions against us are taken by the governments but not by the people of these countries. Today, many people in the Middle East say no, these are democratic countries (which I don’t believe they are) in which these governments are chosen by the people (civilians), So those civilians are responsible for whatever their government does. Those who blow a restaurant for example, they don’t think that those civilians over there are innocents. They say those people have chosen this government, so they must pay for their decision.

Yazan

Yazan,

I agree in general with your assessment. However, the problem I have is that when the tables are turned and PLO by-standers are killed getting to the actual active bad guys, then you don't want to apply the same standard to them. That is they support and encourage the terrorists and therefore must suffer the consequences of their decisions as well.

"Is all actions classified by the west as terrorist actions are so?"
Pretty much, yes.

The land you call "arab" was where both jewish and arab people immigrated, until the arabs, feeling superior, became alarmed at all the jewish people around, and decided to kill them.

Yazan,

Define "Arab land" and "Muslim country"! If your definition is based on the majority of people living in those lands or countries are Arabs or Muslims, then you are only making a joke on yourself!

"Is all actions classified by the west as terrorist actions are so?"
Pretty much, yes.
I don't agree with many of these actions
but I'll till you someting
you don't know why they do it, because if you do your answer wont be that simple.
and about the actions that I do agree with,
you don't see who is the real terrorist (like in what's between Arab and Israelis)


about the second part

The land you call "arab" was where both jewish and arab people immigrated, until the arabs, feeling superior, became alarmed at all the jewish people around, and decided to kill them.
Dear spidergoat
I guess you don’t have the complete picture about how the relation used to be between Arab and Jews!!!!
I don’t want you to trust my story that I would like to say
If you dig out for some British orientalists in Oxford or Cambridge they will tell you that actually there were agreements between Muslims and Jews to live in peace together in Al Medina, which is a city in Saudi Arabia. A Jew guy trespassed an Arab Muslim Woman; the Jews did not handle this man where according to the agreement they should. Any way Muslims punished them only by drive them away of this city. Some Jews till modern history were living in the Arabian Gulf, and some Jews tribes still like in Yemen and some African Arabian countries; many of Israelis came from Arabian countries. And believe it or not, no body has ever treated Jews in a good way such as Muslims did. Read this, which I’ve posted somewhere previously: -
at the time of the Islamic empire,When they used to apply Islamic law, Jews were treated so well same as every one else.
I know it may seem strange, but read the history and you will know
Jews lived a good life in Spain through all the 800 years of Islamic administration there!!!
As soon as Muslims were out
Ferdinand (King of Spain) and his wife Isabella (in 1492) made an ordinance to drive away all the Jews

If you need any further information just ask, it will be a pleasure

Yazan

GuessWho,
What do you mean by define Arab land?
It is the land that belongs to Arab (Muslims, Christians and Jews)
And when I say a Muslim country I mean the Muslim countries in which not only the majority, but all people there are Muslims at least officially. Yes indeed there are some countries where there is other religions as well. This is why when I talked about Arab and Israelis I did not say Muslims and Israelis. I said Arab and Israelis, and I did mean Arab of All religions.

Yazan

I guess you don’t have the complete picture about how the relation used to be between Arab and Jews!!!!
Yes, they used to tolerate one another, and now they don't because the Jews had the audacity to want to be self-governing like everyone else. In spain, it made no difference, because they were basically in exile already.


you don't see who is the real terrorist (like in what's between Arab and Israelis)
I think I have a good idea. I lived through the '73 war in Israel, my relatives live there today, including my great aunt who took refuge there after being liberated from a concentration camp, and my brother was born there. My cousins were commandos in the Israeli army, and my other aunt is a nurse who treats the victims of bus bombings.

Yes, they used to tolerate one another, and now they don't because the Jews had the audacity to want to be self-governing like everyone else
The strange part in here, which I always like to rise, I’m pretty sure that no one when reads your post would reply and say,
Hey, what do you mean by the Jews had audacity to want to be self-governing like everyone else?
Does it have to be a Jews country?
On the other hand, when someone talks about Muslim countries, which is an existing fact, like I did previously, seemed to some a bad way of defining things?
Any way, can’t they have all that with out seizing others lands. Arab accepted (by force) having them as neighbor so why they are seizing a part of Palestine and Syria?
Is the land they took so tight and they don’t feel comfortable?
I swear sometimes I say to my self those people are just like that, since this Earth was created, can’t live with no enemies.

In spain, it made no difference, because they were basically in exile already

No my dear, this was only an example, and at that time Jews were living in peace in the Arabian countries where the European wanted to through them out of Europe. They were driven away from Spain only after the Islamic government there was ended.


I think I have a good idea. I lived through the '73 war in Israel, my relatives live there today, including my great aunt who took refuge there after being liberated from a concentration camp, and my brother was born there. My cousins were commandos in the Israeli army

That’s mean you have a good idea about how the Israelis are destroying poor farmers lands, shelling civilians villages with bombs from tanks and jets (don’t tell me they are replying the Arab’s terrorist, because there is no comparison between modern tanks, jets, helicopters and between few hand made bombs and stones).
Also it means that you saw how the Israelis used to smash the bones by stones of those who through stones at them. I saw it several times; they flatten his arms and bit him until his bones get smashed completely.


and my other aunt is a nurse who treats the victims of bus bombings

What is the ratio of killed people between them
Is it 1 :100, less? more?
Any way,
What do you expect from a guy who the Israelis killed his family, brought his house down and eliminated any living tree in his little farm?
to say thanks?

Does it have to be a Jews country?
No,
did 5 major countries, with the help of others have to attack the Jews in 1948?
No. After that its all fair game, would you want to live nearby the same people that just tried to kill you?


(don't tell me they are replying to the arab's terrorist, because there is no comparison between modern tanks, jets and helicopters, and between few handmade bombs and stones)
Believe me, the Palestinians can get all those things, but the cynical arab governments deprive the Palestinians of these weapons in a deliberate attempt to appear the victim. After WWII, the Jews take any threat seriously. If you were poking me repeatedly with a sharp stick, I would have every right to shoot you with my Uzi.

What would I expect from an arab that lost his land? A smart person would realize that it was the unprovoked attacks of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, and Iraq that got him into his precarious position. These powers used more than stones, they owned modern armies. If you want to talk about individual tragedies and revenge, the revenge will never stop. The goal of organizations like Hamas is to destroy Israel entirely. The goal of Israel is to live in peace with its neighbors. The Palestinians are also fighting a propaganda campaign, and you are the victim.

Yaz this is my take on it...
Land lost in a war does not have to be given back ever by the victor.
For example Prussia the precrusor to modern germany is now divided between Poland and Russia and probably will never again be given to germany.
Or silesia for that matter which was populated by about 3 million germans which were forced out after world war 2 which were a majority in the province mind you.

This is how it goes dude , looze a war = looze the land. Accept it because inciting further bloodshed and warfare makes the victor not only reluctant to give you peace but makes it righteous in the historical sense to take more land until you give them peace On their terms not your own. To the victor go the spoils and the terms of peace for the defeated ...

I am a very nationalistic person and personally I think arabs or muslims in areas lost to Israel should be kicked out or treated like Chechens in Chechnya right now. Here is an example of what I mean in 1990 Chechen population was slightly over a million after the first chechen war it become 830 thousand now its 470 thousand by the time Putin gets out of office I m guessing it will be 270 thousand. And if you dont believe me go to bbc news site and check out chechnya timiline and look at the figures posted on the site. And you know what most people dont care if Chechens cease to exist because they are fed up when a building or a car bomb blows up they just want it over. Russia is not Israel too much clout to do whatever it wants. But Israel should definetely express its sovergnty and kick out all those which fight against it. International discussions and feelings do not matter unless they are enforced so listening to them is pointless.

did 5 major countries, with the help of others have to attack the Jews in 1948?
No. After that its all fair game, would you want to live nearby the same people that just tried to kill you?
you really ask strange questions
do you expect from Arab countries to let Israel take one of their lands?
So it even can continue taking one after another
Remind me, who say’s that our land must be from the Iraqi river (Forat) to the Egyptian one (Nile)

The goal of Israel is to live in peace with its neighbors
So if Israel wants peace and wants to live a peaceful life with its neighbors. why it refuses always what the UN wants? (except their American partners). Why it keeps seizing Lebanon, Syrian and Palestinian lands? Why it refuses a UN force to be their to make things right?
This is really silly,
Even if we assume that the way the Palestinians do resist is not right
what do you expect from the people that you are taking their lands? So away from their land, then and only then if they don’t respect the agreements and try to hurt Israel do what ever you want

Eluminate,
For your knowledge,
Al Kuds (Palastine) was invaded so many times and taken back (read the history)
Any way what you say deos’t make sence
America is the Strongest country today
So for eg. If it wants any land do you think that this land’s people should say oh we should save our blood and give our land to America
This is nonsense
Al Kuds is a holy place that neither Muslims or Christians will let Israel take, they will keep fighting till the last man.
And I do believe you about Chechen
But you should know,
Islam says that any one who fights in the name of God he either gets victory or martyrdom. Who ever dies will be awarded with haven.
You may think this is silly, but those people believe that they are winners in all cases.
Another thing is, in the East they say,
Either a life that cheers a friend or a death enrages an enemy.

Eluminate,
For your knowledge,
Al Kuds (Palastine) was invaded so many times and taken back (read the history)
Yes it was ALSO invaded by muslims (read the history) ;)

path
it was taken back by Muslims,

the ones who built Al Kuds (Jerusalem) about (3000-4000)years ago were the Kananies (not sure of the spilling in English) (they were Arab).
read history;)
I'm in a hurry
I'll provide the details later
Yazan

path
it was taken back by Muslims,

the ones who built Al Kuds (Jerusalem) about (3000-4000)years ago were the Kananies (not sure of the spilling in English) (they were Arab).
read history;)
I'm in a hurry
I'll provide the details later
Yazan
I don't get muslim history books over here ;) Arabs came from Arabia the canaanites were a distinct ethnic group there were also the Philistines the Isrealites, Phonecians, Greeks and Romans, before arabs came to name a few.

How long do you have to live in a place before it becomes your land? How long do you have to be absent from that place before it becomes someone else's land? What relationship is required with the owner of land, so that, when they die, it becomes your's? What governing body controls ownership of land?

What governing body controls ownership of land?

http://www.flagline.com/images/novelty-un.gif

It was them who gave Israel her existance, and thus you basically answered your own question.

I'm not sure about that, people have been owning land far longer than the UN has existed.

Not Israel...

spidergoat,
Why you don’t answer my questions?
“”””So if Israel wants peace and wants to live a peaceful life with its neighbors. why it refuses always what the UN wants? (except their American partners). Why it keeps seizing Lebanon, Syrian and Palestinian lands? Why it refuses a UN force to be their to make things right?””””

let me add something: -
Why you talk as if the Israelis want to live in any land and Arab are preventing this to happen?
Israel has already taken a land
Arab have already accepted the fact that there is Israel
But the point in here is, Israel seems to need more, it keeps taking by force more and more lands, it keeps seizing others lands( I don’t mean the land of Israel) I mean the Jolaan in Syria, Shaba’a in Lebanon and many of the Palestinians lands?

The UN does not seem to understand that the "arabs" as you call them, have not accepted the fact that there is an Israel, and Israel needs to protect itself strategically, meaning, there is some land that would give the owner a military advantage, like a hill overlooking a town. The UN is a noble idea, but also paralyzed by internal disagreements. No country should give up sovereignty to this ineffectual body.

UN this, UN that
stop selectively appealing to its impotent authority
you either accept that US (and other powers) veto resolutions, or you don't
i've sort of accepted Syria as the temporary president of the security council, and Lakhdar Brahimi as the fucking undersecretary-general, so accept the vetoes

and no, Yazan, arab states (and especially the Iranian fascist regime) have not recognized Israel.
they cry to the west that all that stands between peace is those fucking 'palestinian' refugees.
wrong

if it was the issue it would've been solved long time ago
before there was any "occupation" of WB and Gaza, there were still wars launched at us

and now too, every problem in the arab world is blamed on the "Zionist entitiy"

the arabs need Israel to exist in conflict. that way they can divert attention from their own failures and balme it on The Jews.
that's why they keep attacking Israel militarily by proxy, while being on the diplomatic offensive to ostracize the Jewish state from world trade, sports competitions, cultural events, etc.

the IDF does not "conquer lands by force"
it sets up strategic security buffer areas in places from which attacks had happened before. you know, there was a peace agreement signed by Lebanon and Israel in the 80's, which resolved the land conflict, but that goddamn Syrian scumbag Assad (the father) annulled it.

the issue of the Sheba'a farms (Mt. Dov), that is bullshit
the IDF withdrew to the UN recognized Blue Line. Hezbollah is just bitching about the Sheba'a farms because without a fake occupation they have no reason to even exist.

their mission before was to protect Shia interests in Lebanon and expell the IDF.
well, Syria has its army in Lebanon, "protecting the peace", and the IDF left 4 years ago
now they shifted their goal at "destroying the Zionist entity"

please man... don't talk for all the Umma when you say "Arabs have accepted Israel"
those who have, are a tiny minority

if Israel did not have all those weapons, tomorrow morning Mubarak (yes, Mubarak) would be sending the army in. so would Assad, Nasrallah, Khamenei, and the Saudis

the Jordanians and Egyptians hate us. the only reason they don't massacre us as they secretly (and some not so secretly) wish to do, is because of the US

http://www.metimes.com/2K1/issue2001-37/eg/court_rejects_jewish.htm
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=61801

with friends like these...


===

Why it refuses a UN force to be their to make things right?
UN force? are you kidding me? there is no army better than the IDF more suited for this.. and even if this is not true, i wouldn't trust any army protecting me unless it's my own.
especially not this army (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20040418/wl_nm/serbiamontenegro_kosovo_shooting_dc)

let's assume the UN gets its troops in. if they're not successful in protecting Israelis, and the IDF retaliates, and the UN soldiers get hurt, Israel would be blaimed for "taking zionist aggression to new levels by attacking brave UN soldiers"

btw, there is a UN force on the border between Lebanon and Israel
they are pathetic
they don't prevent attack
they didn't help or warn the 3 soldiers that were kidnapped in 2000
they don't tell where the Hezbollah mines are located even though they know
and they don't have bullets in their guns!

====
back to Arabs' "peaceful wishes" towards Israel
in the 1979 peace agreement between Egypt and Israel, it said that Israel's relations with other arab states should not influence Egyptian-Israeli relations
despite of this, Egypt has pulled its ambassador 3.5 years ago because of the intifadah

the only way for "peace in the middle east" is either by Israeli military superiority, or by de-fanaticize the middle east

UN this, UN that
stop selectively appealing to its authority


Oth you aren't the smartest of fellows and you are doing nothing but degrade the argumentations of Zionism. If the UN was so "impotent" do you think Israel would even dare exist today? If it wasn't for that "impotent" authority with almost 100% certainty the 1939 white paper would have stuck and that land would be totally and completely Arab. The UN gave you life and it can quickly take it away, don't bite the hand... I dare Israel to withdraw from the UN, I dare her.

Spider:

The UN does not seem to understand that the "arabs" as you call them, have not accepted the fact that there is an Israel

To my last count, Egypt, Jordan accept the right of Israel's existence, as does the P.A. Israel has not accepted the idea of a Pal. state either.

and Israel needs to protect itself strategically, meaning, there is some land that would give the owner a military advantage, like a hill overlooking a town.

Doesn't make it any less illegal, you mean the hills over Damascus where you have nuclear shells? Yes, peace loving Israel... that is not your land, and the W.Bank and Gaza have NO strategic advantage for Israel.

The UN is a noble idea, but also paralyzed by internal disagreements. No country should give up sovereignty to this ineffectual body.

It kills me when a Zionist claims this completely nonsensical line of argumentation. The only thing here that is ineffectual is your argumentations. Which are based on… I don’t even want to venture there.

undicided you are totally wrong England granted the land Israel resides upon what happened was they just left the two forces arabs & jews to duke it out who would actually control it in a civil war which they knew was going to occur. So they pulled out and the expected occured. So in the end Jews got their homeland by fight for its survival. The UN is a joke it did nothing... any resolutions it ever passed were never enforced unless some one nation took up the charge for them and used them for itself.

A nation without an army is a subject. The UN is like the good parent saying wait until your --- comes home. If you want to make rules then there has to be consequences for breaking the rules. I do not support giving the UN a military but without one it is just a club for airing gripes. That was its purpose and it does a decent job at it. It is not designed to govern or enforce the rules. Most of the developed nations do not want to be ruled by the UN any way.