Well I've figured out what this war will be called, against Afghanistan anyways. The other two wars were called the Anglo-Afghan and Soviet-Afghan wars.

Now that we have the name down, retalation will start soon. We need to figure out how to take down Afghanistan, Bin Laden, the Taliban, and other states. How can we do it all at once is what we really need anwsered.

I want to really hear from the war buffs on this one.

The slow, methodical destruction of the Taliban leadership/government and the religious extreme which has impoverished the Afghan peoples.

The importation and introduction and support for more liberal Muslim influences within the country. We will be percieved as invaders if we occupy the country. We really need the help of islam to win this one.

I see this as an exuse and an opportunity to fix what we helped create back in the '80's.

My Hungry Hawk view:
A few tactical neutron bombs well placed, (or a bio-agent) will eliminate a million people including several thousand Mullahs. No one here will miss those there. Not a good strategy, but makes me feel good by thinking about it. We are all made of Good and Evil. Can you tell my evil showing?

My moderate Hawk view:
Enlist the Talliban opposition and Pakistan, pay some money (sometimes money is called mullah for a reason) to the right people and have the extrimists eliminated. I do not care, who you are, money talks. We may have to send an elite team to make sure, they did not hide the terrorists.

My extreme moderate Hawk view: (30% Hawk, 70% Dove)
Same as above but with some added incentive. Work with every Moslem countries to discuss, what it is we need to do to keep our way of life, and they keep their way of life. In otherwords, live and let live. In the process we need to solve the palestine issue too with some financial incentive to keep their economy from going south. It is a grand plan that needs serious work in the implementation. It is a difficult road but is doable. Any half hearted work in this area will have negetive effect.

<i>"We may have to send an elite team to make sure, they did not hide the terrorists."</i>

Maybe they can bring us their heads on a stick or something.

Anyway, it won't be a short war, and many people are going to die. With that in mind, let's encourage thoughtful engagement. Anticipation is our friend at this time.

The extremists are well trained. I was watching a documentary from a few years ago. A Pakistani reporter was being toured around various training camps in Afghanistan. The guide pulled out an American Marine Corps training manual that had been translated (by the Americans for the Afghans!). Perhaps the lesson in all of this for the US is that foreign policy decisions have long term effects. Americans have always been reactionary, and not really involved in long-term strategic planning.

If there is any ground activity, there will be American casualties on a large scale. This isn't the Gulf War all over. The question is how many American lives are going to be lost avenging those already lost?

Muslims believe that dying while defending a homeland guarantees you a place in Paradise. There is no enemy more difficult to beat.

Definately the deaths will be high if we deploy a lot of ground troops.

I personally see a MASSIVE air campaign against foritifications, and cities, military instalations as well. This will be accomplished by long range bombers from the continental US, and Turkey. Special forces from the UK, Germany, Israel, US and other countries will be deployed to hunt Bin Laden down, and to pick off small resistance forces and cells.

I have a feeling that we're going to bomb Iraq, the US Navy is deploying carriers in the Persian Gulf. If you look at a map, the only direct flight path is right through Iranian air space, which isn't open. You'd have to fly around Iran, to the Arabian Sea, up through Pakistan, to Afghanistan just to bomb. I have a feeling we're going after Iraq. Three terrorists were captured in Detroit and Germany with links to Hussein.

If we go to Iraq, I think its safe to say there would be a huge air campaign against Iraq, a build up of tanks in Saudi Arabia or some other country and a small invasion for Baghdad.

Just pointing at some possible scenarios, keep the ideas coming guys.

I don't think an air campaign would work. Unlike Iraq, there is no coherent military in Afghanistan. The essence of the militants is to be as distributed as possible -- resistant to directed assuault. There are no large military installations and the militants are highly mobile.

I seem to recall that much of the Soviet effort in Afghanistan consisted of aerial assaults, and see how ineffectual those were.

Sure, the US could completely bomb Afghanistan to hell, but that would result in huge civilian losses -- something that the American public is, thankfully, strongly opposed to.

I don't think this is a situation the US can explicitly win. Every fighter they kill becomes a reason to hate the US even more.

I do think that the US is benefiting indirectly, however. The citizens of the US have taken a temporary reprieve from their general trend towards consumptive hedonism and depravity. Also, the world community is united in sympathy towards to the US and will probably grant the US wider liberties in world politics.

I am well aware that there is not coherient, centralized military in Afghanistan, it's largely a scattered group of gurrellia cells. The air strikes would destroy whatever few usefull bits of infrastructure were in the country.

More importantly the special forces could and will hunt down emplacements, bunkers, and individual cells. What they can't take down themselves, due to the toughness of the protection, or number of people can be delt with by air strikes.

The Afghan's still have Stinger SAMs from the Soviet-Afghan war. Then again radar visibility on even fighter planes is nothing compared to the large attack helicopters used by the Red Army. Plus countermeasures and altitude will make most one man SAMs impotent.

One question though: Why are we putting ships in the Gulf to fight Afghanistan, 1500 plus miles away? Look at a map, doesn't this seem out of place?

Thanks Porfiry.

Porfiry wrote

I do think that the US is benefiting indirectly, however. The citizens of the US have taken a temporary reprieve from their general trend towards consumptive hedonism and depravity. Also, the world community is united in sympathy towards to the US and will probably grant the US wider liberties in world politics.

Taking a temporary reprieve from our hedonism is not a good thing. Our economy will go south and so will everybody else. Except of course the countries that do not have an economy like the Afghanis...



Perhaps the lesson in all of this for the US is that foreign policy decisions have long term effects. Americans have always been reactionary, and not really involved in long-term strategic planning.

That is because, as I have mentioned it in this forum, we Americans are always shortsighted - from our politicians to business leaders, everything runs by the quarter. No body can see past their noses, cannt see the forest from the trees. Very little Systems Thinking.

As a consultant in System Dynamics, nine out of ten times I was asked what it is. They talk like they understand, but really do not.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21757.html

There is no enemy more difficult to beat.

When Richard Nixon was in office, he predicted that the East and the West would eventually clash. He also predicted that the East would win that clash, and that the West's focus needed to be prolonging that clash as long as possible.

I know it may sound crazy. But try not to dismiss the idea just because it was Richard Nixon that said it. He was basically a genius when it came to foreign diplomacy, most notably with the East.

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. ~ Gandhi

Rush Limbaugh has often said that being a liberal is the most gutless thing you can do, because all you have to do is say, "I care." I agree that that’s a pretty easy thing to do, but I submit that being a warmonger, especially at a time like this, is the most gutless thing you can do, because all you have to do is say, "Let’s bomb ‘em back into the Stone Age."
It’s easy to react with the mob. It’s harder to think as an individual.
It’s easy to be emotional. It’s harder to be rational.
It’s easy to fly an American flag when all of your neighbors are doing it. It’s harder to fly a peace flag when you’re the only one in your neighborhood doing it.
It’s easy to be nationalistic, what is referred to today as "patriotic." It’s harder to admit that your country has done and is doing some horrible things.
It’s easy to mourn the loss of innocent Americans. It’s harder to mourn the loss of innocent foreigners.
It’s easy to be spoon-fed answers by the media and the government. It’s harder to ask questions.
It’s easy to act before you think. It’s harder to exercise restraint.
It’s easy to call for vengeance. It’s harder to seek understanding.
It’s easy to sit in front of the lobotomy box listening to people like Wesley Clark and Newt Gingrich tell you what you should think and do. It’s harder to spend hours conducting your own research and arriving at your own conclusions.
It’s easy to attack innocent American Muslims and Arabs. It’s harder to defend people who don’t look like you, whose names are hard to pronounce, or who worship a different god than you do.
It’s easy to remain ignorant of history and current events. It’s harder to educate yourself and remain informed.
It’s easy to call for revenge. It’s harder to be concerned about what happens after that.
It’s easy to call for an eye for an eye. It’s harder to turn the other cheek.
It’s easy to perpetuate the cycle of violence. It’s harder to stop it.
It’s easy to call for U.S. servicemen to be put in harm’s way. It’s harder – much harder – to actually serve in the military and put your own life on the line.
It’s easy to call for the use of the military. It’s harder to acquire knowledge of what it does and what its limitations are.
It’s easy to pass a $40 billion emergency spending bill ("just a down payment"). It’s harder to keep campaign promises about a Social Security lockbox.
It’s easy to declare war. It’s harder to secure peace.
It’s easy to vote with 420 other people. It’s harder to be the lone dissenter.
It’s easy to call a suicide bomber "a coward." It’s harder to admit that you’re the coward for allowing the U.S. military to do your killing for you.
It’s easy to be led and manipulated by "leaders." It’s harder to lead yourself.
It’s easy to surrender your civil liberties for promises of greater security. It’s harder to defend your civil liberties when everyone else is saying you have to surrender them.
It’s easy to anonymously post messages on websites, accusing people of treason and advocating their imprisonment because you disagree with their opinion. It’s harder to use facts and logic to refute an argument.
It’s easy to send hate mail to writers you disagree with. It’s harder to stand up for your principles by writing a column that you know is going to be very unpopular.
It’s easy to call for the silencing of all dissent. It’s harder to defend a person’s right to free speech even when you disagree with what he has to say.

We are going to come through this okay. I don't think Afghan will be an issue of a concern much longer.

Hi all,

Bowser,


We are going to come through this okay. I don't think Afghan will be an issue of a concern much longer.

Hey, how about this, we agree on something :). Unfortunately we don't on the reasons behind. This whole thing reminds me of David vs. Goliath (I guess you can figure out who's who yourself).

David won.

Think about it.

Bye!

Crisp

When Richard Nixon was in office, he predicted that the East and the West would eventually clash. He also predicted that the East would win that clash, and that the West's focus needed to be prolonging that clash as long as possible

We have not clashed with the East yet. Wait for atleast 20 years. Then the real East will come knocking at our door because the West did something stupid.

Hi Malaclypse:

You are a Coward, Unpatriotic, Un-Christian person, Why?

We learn from media that

The Bible teaches revenge and not turn the other cheek
Telling the truth is Unpatriotic
To ask for peace is to be a Coward

Actually, I am very impressed. It is profound. Thank you.

Crisp,

<i>"This whole thing reminds me of David vs. Goliath (I guess you can figure out who's who yourself)."</i>

What was it David used to bring down the giant...a utility knife? Don't kid yourself.

From the BBC news website:


The man who will decide both the fate of Islamic militant Osama Bin Laden, and of Afghanistan, is a reclusive figure whose friendship with the world's most wanted man has already brought his country almost complete isolation.
The Taleban spiritual leader Mohammed Omar and Bin Laden go back a long way, and Mullah Omar has never shown any sign that he is prepared to abandon his fellow resistance fighter from the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan of 1979 to 1989.

He has vigorously defended his friend against allegations that he masterminded last week's devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, accusing the US of trying to cover up their own intelligence failures.

Bin Laden is believed to have at least partially financed the Taleban takeover of Afghanistan, from which Mullah Omar emerged as "commander of the faithful", a title with great resonance in Islamic history.

The ties go further. It is thought that Mullah Omar has taken Bin Laden's eldest daughter as a wife, and that Bin Laden may even have taken one of Mullah Omar's daughters as a fourth wife.

But the Taleban has always denied this.

Hermit

No Western journalist has ever met Mullah Omar, who leaves virtually all contact with the outside world to his foreign minister, Wakil Ahmad Mutawakkil.

To many ordinary Afghans he is just a name, but those who have seen him say he is relatively young - in his early forties - and tall, with a black beard and a black turban.

His right eye was damaged by shrapnel when he was fighting Afghanistan's Soviet occupiers in the 1980s.



Taleban Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmad Mutawakkil is Mullah Omar's mouthpiece

He rarely leaves the southern city of Kandahar where he lives in a large house that was reportedly built for him by Bin Laden, although he may be present in Kabul for a meeting of 1,000 senior Afghan Islamic clerics on Wednesday to discuss his friend's fate.

It is thought that the two speak daily by satellite telephone, and some reports suggest that they also meet for fishing trips.

Invisible fist

Under Mullah Omar's rule, a strict interpretation of Islamic law has been imposed on the 90% of Afghanistan which is ruled by the Taleban.

Women are strongly discouraged from leaving their homes, denied schooling and jobs and forced to fully cover themselves.

Women found guilty of adultery are stoned to death, homosexuals crushed under brick walls, thieves' hands are amputated and murderers publicly executed by victims' families.

Recent edicts from Mullah Omar have included the death sentence for anyone converting to another religion, as well as the infamous orders to destroy the country's ancient Buddha statues.

When the Taleban first arrived in Kabul in the mid-1990s, many ordinary Afghans welcomed them and Omar as heralding an end to the chaos caused by warring factions within the government.

Now a new chaos is unfurling.

A few months ago Mullah Omar told Pakistani journalist Rahimullah Yousifzei, the first journalist to interview him, that in his lifetime half of Afghanistan had already been destroyed.

He was ready to see the other half destroyed rather than give up Osama Bin Laden, he said.

It appears that this claim is now being put to the test.

Pitty the fools who don't understand the harm this monster hopes to bring to their doorstep. It's time do take action.

<B>Bin Laden has been shopping for a nuclear weapon. He's also been experimenting with chemical warfare, and it is believed that he has been testing a device.</B>

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010924/wosama.html

Hi Bowser,


Bin Laden has been shopping for a nuclear weapon. He's also been experimenting with chemical warfare, and it is believed that he has been testing a device.

Undoubtfully the man has in some way access to nuclear or biochemical devices, he's got the money and the will. And he's close to Russia, where you can walk in and pick up a nuke anytime. ((Irony mode on)) And I am convinced that an attack on Bin Laden's person will convince him not to use these devices against any possible aggressor ((irony mode off)).

PS: Bowser, I'm not on some personal crusade against you (with me always replying to your posts). It just happens that you make the most explicit comments (meant in a positive way) that simply drive me to reply :).

Bye!

Crisp

Being my original post may I reiderate that these people speak in one language: death.

They don't understand civilized reason and compassion. The true definition of evil is the absence of empathy. As we sit hidden behind our glowing computer screens, typing furiously at our keyboards in a electronic sparing match thousands of men and women are being deployed to the middle east from various countries.

As we sit on the floor, or the desk or wherever you may be reading this the pillars of the United States government are plotting for a war of an unseen kind against an unseen enemy. I have heard civilian phraises like, "homeland defense", "the war effort," and other phraises that haven't been uttered since the Second World War.

Peace would be a comforting idea, but that's all, an idea. There will be no fruition to the plans for peace and reasoning with an enemy that has no ability to reason.

The blame will be put on us and already has for inciting this, by putting military bases in the middle east, and for medeling in mid-east affairs.

Well EXCUSE me, when the hell did full on invasions of other countries, become exclusivly a middle eastern problem? One, people were getting killed in Kuwait when the Iraqis invaded. Two it was a breach of international law, and three the petrolum output to the western world was indangered. Bin Laden would claim that we were attacking Islam in Somolia, when indeed we were preventing warloards from taking food and aid away from the Somali's.

The reason why we stayed is because the countries, and more specifically the people of the middle east have demonstrated time and time again that they cannot act with any thought of reason, except for that the only religion that belongs on the two continents and the world is theirs. Maybe if the people's of the middle east acted with some responsability, instead of the temper of a two-year-old then we wouldn't have to intervene.

Maybe if Osama Bin Laden would spend his fortune on food, education, and other basic privileges than there would be no problem in the middle east. If he had done that, there wouldn't be 6,000 dead, and an impending war.

So who is at fault, an idiot that is too blind to see the real reason for resolving problems with his resources, or a nation that has worked harder than any other to keep the peace around the world, at the exclusive expense of its taxpayers.

P.S. To anyone living outside of the US or Britian, why is that when you guys need help you bark to us, and when we suffer a national tradgedy you can't even pledge support or resources of any kind against an organization that aims to destroy everything free, and non-Islamic.

If you can provide a counter-point to some of my grievences, maybe I'll shut up.

Then again I am a loud mouth 15-year old American.

Undoubtfully the man has in some way access to nuclear or biochemical devices, he's got the money and the will.

I am no expert on Islam, but I heard an interview with an Islamic religious scholar who claimed that Islam strictly forbids anything that will harm the environment and ecosystem of the world. He said that consequently, Bin Laden would not use nucler/biological weapons since the potential damage to the world itself makes it essentially un-Islamic.

Given how much of this is driven, or at least justified by religion (this is, after all, a jihad), I found this information interesting.

I agree with all you said above.
especially your PS

Crisp,

<i>"PS: Bowser, I'm not on some personal crusade against you (with me always replying to your posts). It just happens that you make the most explicit comments (meant in a positive way) that simply drive me to reply."</i>

Free speech is a priviledge in which WE should indulge--if not for ourselves, then for those who don't enjoy the same liberty. When contrary opinions are absent, we should then be very concerned.

Thanks a lot Odin, I think I am completely right on every issue and I'm happy you agree with me.

The United States and the British people have always stood together when either has been threatened, I am so glad that only an ocean seperates our people's and nothing else.

Anyone hear about the riots in Pakistan today (Friday)? They had them in at least three major cities. They were expressing their displeasure with their government's cooperation with the US. Signs said things like: "Allah bless Osama bin Laden" ; "Jihad against the United States" ; "Pakistan will be a graveyard for American troops" and so on and so forth. at least three people were killed and five police injured.

"Pakistan will be a graveyard for American troops"

That is for the benefit of the press/media. Somebody forgot to tell them that they are the one that died in the riots and more of them will drop dead if they do not watch out.

I hope everyone that thinks this is going to be no problem is correct.

I think we're greatly underestimating what we could be starting.

May be you are right felix, War have a tendency to grow...bigger the better. Then when the dust settles, you can say that, you faught in that big one (If you are still alive, that is).

This is going to be the bloodiest war ever. It's going to last years. It's going to suck. We have no choice.

It sounds nice to "turn the other cheek" but sometimes you have to overturn the tables in the temple. Many people are angry. The government is making sure what they feel is a "righteous indignation." That they are not acting out of emotion but out of reason. This may come as a shock to some but not all actions are guided by emotions.

The truth? What is the truth? Is the truth the Bin Laden is an evil man who can't be reasoned with? Or is the truth that talk will work? Guess what...we've been talking...it doesn't work in this case. We tried. We're now giving a show of force. We're letting the world know we have nothing against the Islamic religions.

Peace? How does one obtain peace? By ignoring threats? By living in lala land? Or by placing your foot down and saying "enough is enough." It would be nice if peace could come with a letter but it will not. Peace will unfortunatly come with a war.

You can either help fight that war or ignore it and pretend that everything is okay in the world. Which is more cowardly? Ignoring reality? Or accepting and dealing with it?

I would suspect that by the end of the month missles have been fired. And we're off.

Ben

The truth of the matter is that we are going to eliminate the terrorists except those we can control to be used them against our enemies. This has been going on for hundreds of years....So sit back, relax and watch the fireworks.

While at it, you can help the country, if you stop watching the TV and go spend some money or visit New York. The Mayor wants you. And it is safe - if we pass this Saturday without any incidents. While the media is chasing the ambulance, go to a Mall or something....

This is a good time to start looking at stocks, too.

I think the Pakistani government is fairly safe from a coup. They were a government put in power by a military coupe, so having lots of military experience the people will be shut up and the government will stand.

Then again a coup would be devistating, being a nuclear power.

Money talks - even in the terrorist group and war. Pakistanis will survive, provided US quietly pledges economic support when all of this is over.

I just thought of something. Because people are afraid to fly including the business people, our economy is taking a hit. What I propose is very simple. Why not put 6 to 8 armed (with low impact bullets) military personnel immidiately in every plane until a permanenet sky marshal plan is setup. This type of show of force will boost confidence in the travelling public and we will be back on track, while the government does its thing out there.

The military isn't the way to solve our security problems.

Don't get me wrong during wars the Army is a great impliment of power, but no to inforce laws. That is why afterall cops are called, law enforcement officers.

Soldiers are trained to kill, not to make the decision between arrest, reasoning and killing if all other options have been exhausted.

We would like to see a terrorist tried in a court of law if he tries to hijack a plane, ship or any vessel. They can't be tried if he's dead, plus a military presense everywhere is going to make the US look like a new police state. Very bad for the image, I'm sure the sky marshalls are trained very well and can handel the situations arriving.

Plus blowing someone's head away with a hundred people of all ages watching will cause irrepreable damage to their brains.

Here is a level-headed assessment of what the US could be heading into as recounted by a former Soviet soldier.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-092201tension.story



"I asked an old man, 'Why do you live in such conditions? Don't you want to do something to improve your lot?' " Lisinenko said. "But the man replied, 'Don't you understand that the worse we live in this world, the better our lives will be in paradise? We don't want the same things in life that you want.' "

That's when Lisinenko said he began to understand that Western ideas of warfare might not succeed in Afghanistan. How do you battle a foe who has so little to protect in this world? A person who may believe a greater good will come from sacrificing himself, his home, his family? How do you vanquish an enemy for whom categories of defeat and victory, life and death do not match yours?

The answer to that Porfiry, is simple. Either leave them alone, but since they treat their own people like animals - send them to Allah, with as little pain as possible. Unfortunately it is not our way. Too bad.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=special&c=3&s=bivens_wtc_20010916

Vengeance will be enacted and it may or may not be our downfall. What can we do now? Appreciate the unity we have and do not take for granted that which brought us together as a nation.
I'm hoping that this is provision for a window through which we can improve the American psyche.

As Americans we need to stop scraping EVERY LAST penny out
of each other with the want for excess that only leads to frailty.
This has the benefit of moral, security, frugal, and independent gain. Our dwindling virtue can be reigned in by making the effort, taking the step that our society has grown lazy and loathe to do. What work ethics have we when we're only absorbed with ourselves? We do not strive for advancement of everyone, and so we cannot call ourselves good or noble. We are selfish, vain, untrue, wasteful, unconcerned, desensitized. We have the ability to do so much more, but without enough people to push we are lost to a cause that could well thrust us into moral and social might.
Who truly desires peace in the world when they strive only to make a buck or two off of another's misfortune? How can we say we represent a peaceful society when we are becoming the evil we "shun"?
If you do not feel you fit this description than you should have all
the more reason to accept it and actively endorse it. We are not in a null point in time. We cannot alienate ourselves and continue to exist. It is our obligation as excelling individuals to hold aloft our ideas and stick to them.
It is well hoped that we have a learned a lesson in all this, and as a serious affliction on a personal level can cause us to shake off old and bad habits, we need to shake off this inhumane philosophy of life. Man is mostly good, when he receives good.
We cannot imagine the scope of a necessary change until it is too late. We feel helpless against the universe, and those who have power often sooner abuse it than use it for benefit.
If one voice urges you toward something that does not go against your philosophy, and you can see the end merit, then you consider it and later forget it. In the same case, if two voices urge you towards something, your inclination to agree is
thus doubled, and so on. So if there is merit in a plan what harm is there in respecting it?
Our greed, as humans, Americans, indeed as creatures of reason, is our eternal downfall. As soon as we recognize the future value of an object as it pertains to us we takes necessary steps to make it so. At the same time, if we can recognize the future value of a plan that affects us, but society too, we see an inconvenience. We are addicted to direct gain. Relax in that.
There are isolated times, in which we give and somehow soon forget how good it makes us feel to have made a difference; and there is the rara avis who consistently gives to others. How sad it is to see these kind people get burnt out by society's steel face!
Everyone feels that they are excluded in this, and certainly they are in many cases, but if you feel that you are truly moral there is no reason to fault yourself. If you recognize your faults, do not be
ashamed, merely better yourself and know it's betterment.
Throughout human history what have stories and religions preached? Goodness, virtue, giving, recognition of a greater good, acceptance, patience. What did the protagonists in those stories gain? Favor by gods or people, fuel for a soul's fire, RESPECT.
Who is instilled after watching a hero movie to go and do good himself? Who cheers when a despicable character is thwarted?
We are moving towards peace as a race, but very slowly. There is less real-time adventure out there with everyone focusing on their private lives, bobbing about in the margin of our social efforts. Where have the voters gone? Where have the intense and moral debates gone? They all stay at home because they have no respect for "society" and its evils, yet in their recluse they are perpetrators of it.
I urge all to understand that they are themselves heroes as long as they perform heroic actions. This is not initially dynamic action, but it is action toward good nonetheless. Let this heroism shine through in these times and let us keep the momentum in wake of the crime that brought us together.
Humans will never fully agree on something unless they can see how directly it affects them. I see tons of calamity and hatred with intention here, in traffic, in the coldness of people. Brusque dismissals and icy stares proliferate and it shames me.
We have a peaceful society, and for that I'm proud; but our society is run by money, personal gain, and power games.
What notion of peace can we truly reach when we use this formula for our foundation? What can change it? You.

Have a look at this, gentlemen...

http://afghan-government.com/

It's a site someone is running out of Boston.

da neato

http://www.infopal.org/docs/spics.htm

As a society, we are in trouble, if we stop building every conceivable item that the terrorists can get their hands on to kill a few people. The best solution is to eliminate them - the terrorists that is. And it can be done easily.

Aside from the race-o-links taking place in this collumn, I'd like to make a brief comment on military action in Afghanistan.

The military since the end of the Cold War, has still been thinking in terms of how to slay the Big Red Bear, instead of becoming a more agile, deadlier, and smarter military. That will change during and after the war.

I don't like saying "the war", it makes this situation all to real, and leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I doubt that there will be a full on Soviet-style invasion of Afghanistan, instead an air-campaign and special ops campagin. These operations will be backed by using gurrelia forces of the Northern Alliance, and other opposition forces in Afghanistan. Remember we don't know how everyone actuall feels there, because of the Taliban state media. They are all starving to death, and maybe we can get a dual rebellion thing going.

During WWII, the Nazis had the best military on the planet. They kicked the British, French, and Soviets asses repeidately. By the end of '40, they had Paris, the capital of a then superpower, France. The British had been driven out of Europe, and the Russians on the defensive. When we first landed in N. Africa, we were massacred by Rommel. Still we fought on, and eventually won the war years later.

If you don't fight you automatically lose, if you do fight you at least have a chance at winning, and the longer you fight the better the odds become of winning.

News is that already a British commando squad is in Afganistan.

Kmguru, didn't they fire on someone or something like that?

I thought I read it on the msnbc ticker, but never saw it again.

P.S. I was looking at a net archive of the Detroit Free Press, from both September 10 & 11. Wow, the world was a different place back then. I am already becoming nostalgic for the world as it was on the tenth of September and before then. And I say that only because the terrorist attack had not happened.

I suggest anyone look at their papers from the day of the attack and before. It's like America was reborn into a sort of hell on the 11th. Really interesting.

<i>"Aside from the race-o-links taking place in this collumn..."</i>


http://www.arabworldnews.com/


Information is important. No?

The bottom line is: the public security measures are useless and is for show only. So let us get back to business as usual and let the government wake up and let the National Security Agency secure us from outside.

We rammed into an iceberg because somebody was sleep at the wheel. I would rather have the captain was where we are going than sleep on a rubber boat inside my luxury cabin.

Tis a thorny problem not matter how it is approached. You can not win and gain ground by air. The Russians found that in the hills and mountians that the lines of travel and supply limit where one gains access to the hilltops. Many were the ambushes set up along these routes. So shall we find should we try such. Isolationism, Money trails, Intellegence, traitors and snitches shall become the tools of war in this one. Direct frontal approach will ensure casualties beyond measure as the Russians found out.

If you focus at the ultimate goal, and not worry about the tools of the trade, then you will win. Brute force may not work in Afganistan. But there may be other ways.

Always focus on the ultimate goal, then the tools will be available to you.

There's no way to win in Afghanistan, so it's pointless to even try. Ask the Russians and British. Besides which, all the US needs to do is grab Bin Laden. An airborne division can hold an airbase where special forces teams can be stationed to grab him as soon as any intel comes in. Best way I think, but not easy.

Interesting an unexpected consequence: A thaw in US/Iranian relations. This could work out well for all concerned, but will be incredibly difficult and require the utmost in sensitivity. Interesting though - since 1990 Iranian/US interests have often coincided - the country truly is the best long-term hope of a 'friendly' regional power, believe it or not. Iran could bring stability to the region, but internal political battles are vital, as is the US approach to the current crisis. Despite my misgivings, it looks like Powell is leading the way in shaping Bush's malable mind. There is yet potential for a better than good outcome to this whole tagic episode.

It is not pointless to try to win. It is pointless to roll over and belly up. That only envites more of the same as what we had in New York. The point of my earlier post was that it can not be convential. That will not work. Neither will ignoring the situtation as that has brought us what we now have. It is a new battlefield with a new way needed to do things.

I agree with wet1, there are other ways to win. I do not want to give any ideas to our enemy, so I will not speculate other methods, but if I can think of so many, I am sure people in our government can too.

Be weary you pesimists and pacifists, here goes my counterpoints.

You can win a war in Afghanistan. Hills and mountains don't fight, people do. People, the Taliban in particular are the problem. The terrain aids in the problem, but it isn't everything. Three historical examples of how history's underdogs have won wars.

The earliest example of people doubting the ability of a force to destroy another, is actually a converse of our present situation. The American militia, after YEARS of intense fighting in the colonies, defeates the greatest power since Rome, Great Britian. We were the first sucessful military rebellion against the crown, if Washington had listened to the nay-sayers there would be no United States of America.

The second example is little known, but important. The Russo-Japanesse War occured in the late 1800s, and for the first time in century's a European power was defeated by a Asian power. The Japanesse won the war against one of the most formidible empires in Eurasia, Imperial Russia under the Czars.

The third, which was stated earlier is the United States again. For nearly two and a half years of fighting in WWII, the Nazis stormed across Europe, into Asia, and Africa. The mighty French were defeated, the British back on their island, contemplating a peace treaty, and the Soviets on the defensive. America invades North Africa w/the Brits and we get our ass reamed by Rommel at the start. After years of fighting, Rommel leaves Africa, the Soviets push the Nazis back from the gates of Moscow, and Stalingrad, and finally in 1944 the second front on Europe is opened at Normandy, France.

What if Roosevelts people said that the a war against the Nazis couldn't be won? The United States would speaking Germany and Japanesse, or at least every European would be wearing Swastikas.

We have no choice but to fight.
If anyone want's to dispute this go ahead, I'm ready to back up my statement.

You cannot win in Afghanistan by killing a few extremists. Terrorism is only the symptoms of the disease. To win this 'war?' we must re-educate those who hate the west.

Understanding, patience, tolerance, and education are the real weapons that help build truth and enlightenment.

If the Taliban regime continues to exist in any form after the killings then that will leave a dangerous seed that can grow again and bite back even harder in years to come.

Jesus said love your enemies, and that really means finding ways to understand them and teach them a better approach to life.

Many centuries ago a group of barbarians from Western Europe decided to convert a number of peaceful tribesmen from the Middle East to Christianity. These tribes people were part of an area that was rich in culture and trade, far more advanced that the west. But their infant religion was still growing and they were not an organized group.

When these Moslems refused to convert, the Christian murderers would hack them to pieces and rape their women.

After some time the Moslems managed to organize themselves and fight back resulting in the eventual expulsion of the Christian bigots and killers.

The result of the Crusades was a group of united peoples under a new and powerful religion we know as Islam. The hate for Christianity continues to this day despite the Koran saying it should not be so.

Had the arrogant and barbaric Christians not tried to inflict their beliefs on others then Islam may well have faded away. Unfortunately their victims became strong in numbers, and built a powerful hate for the west.

Dare I say that the ultimate cause of today's terrorism is really Christianity? It is tempting, and I suspect is probably true and just in a rather unfortunate manner.

There is enormous tension in the Middle East right now, and even for those many Islamic states that have condemned the recent terrorist actions, it would not take much for them to re-unite if they feel that Islam is being attacked again.

If the powerful anti western feeling of the grass-roots Pakistani's results in an overthrow of its current military dictator, then these strong Taliban supporters will have nuclear weapons at their disposal. If such a weapon is used against a Western city then will the west retaliate with more nuclear weapons? I suspect it would and then we will have WWIII.

The cycle of wars and hatred appears to be starting again and we still have not learnt that war never solves anything.

Knowledge and education are the solutions. Irrational and brutal religions will be our destruction even when one of them has the claim to love ones enemies. Isn't that the height of hypocrisy?

Cris

They wish to to convert the west to Islam,the rest is just an excuse to do this
Are you ready to be re-educated to Islam Cris.
They think poverty & hardship is the way to God,so they will not listen to your views.

Odin,

Good point. But then Christianity wants to convert the world to Christianity.

Is a world war between these two religions inevitable?

Wars are often about territory. The territory here seems to be what people believe. A desire by these two regimes to dominate the world.

Is there no hope for rationality?

Cris

thecurly1 wrote:

You can win a war in Afghanistan. Hills and mountains don't fight, people do. People, the Taliban in particular are the problem. The terrain aids in the problem, but it isn't everything. Three historical examples of how history's underdogs have won wars.

Hello? The Afganis are the underdogs. We are the superpower on the face of this planet. Are you calling our Military an underdog?Most of the Afgans do not carry weapons. They are the weapons. The Talibans are a bunch of Mullahs, that are physically weak and old. Unless you want to exterminate 25 million people that carry no weapons, you better come up with another plan. Your way of thinking will lead to Genocide as a solution. But with a billion people ready to take up the fight, it wont end there.

Let the government do its thing. I never thought I would say this, but this time, we have a good plan, and it will come from the new military to fight a new war.

Think out of the box. Think different. Then you shall win.

Originally posted by odin
They wish to to convert the west to Islam,the rest is just an excuse to do this
Are you ready to be re-educated to Islam Cris.
They think poverty & hardship is the way to God,so they will not listen to your views.

Incase you did not pay any attention, we are preaching Christianity in Afganistan where it is illegal. They may be returning the favor. They are holding a group in prison for such violations.

kmguru,

I said educate not indoctrinate. Trying to replace one irrational belief with another achieves nothing.

Cris

That is very debatable,what they said & what happened might be two different things.
It is denied by the accused.
opps think I got the wrong end of the stick here.

kmguru, don't think with all the US and allies military might it is going to be easy to fight Afghanistan. They know the terrain. I think this is mostly why you guys didn't land at Kosovo, you would have got whipped.

Don't you remember what happened to Hitler's forces in the USSR? There soldiers weren't equipped for the terrain, the Afghanies live in it.

Don't be arrogant with all you military might. My step-grandfather told me the story about one of his dogs who used to win every dog fight. Then one day his dog went up against a little dog. My step grandfather thought it would be easy until that dog bit his dogs {censored}. So don't be complacent.

Also, when did this war against terroism become a war of Christianity vs Islam? Christians don't even take up arms to fight people of different religions as a religion. We might fight for our country but that is doing our duty. As cris said, Jesus said love your enemies. There is no holy war in Christianity because there is no need for one. The pope like Osama Bin Laden justify religions for their holy wars of gaining power. Not the Bible or the Quaran.

I presume that if the US is to win this war, there is some sort of clear objective. Does anyone know what it is? New government in Afghanistan? Destruction of Taliban in order to throw fuel onto the fire of civil war? The capture or exeution of Bin Laden?

Before you all start about how the US is going to win the war, it's worth looking at what winning the war would mean. My suspicion is that the US is not follish enough to attempt any sort of invasion - can't win that way. Most od the country is inaccessible - Afghans have years of experience of guerilla war and think nothing of trekking miles over mountains with a heavy calibre machine-gun strapped to their backs to lay an ambush, then disappear off into the mountains. This cannot be a convetional war, if war is the right word. Special forces will need to be used, but based closeby. Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are possibilities.

But if this is just an effort to damage the Taliban and grab Bin Laden, then it's not a war in the traditional sense.

The Northern Alliance is not a viable alternative government. It may be true that the Taliban is unpopular, but that doesn not mean that the dispirate ethnic tribes of the north can form anything like a government. There is already huge tension among the various groups and upon establishing a government would almost certainly break down into civil war eventually. Regardless of who is in power in Afghanistan, there will always be an 'armed opposition movement'.

What are the objectives of this 'war'?

Funny that,the Northern Alliance was the Government in Afghanistan,but they were weak in numbers due to the Russian war,so the Taliban took over.
Also as far as I have heard, the USA is not going to war with any country,just terrorism & those that support it.

Originally posted by Captain Canada


There's no way to win in Afghanistan, so it's pointless to even try. Ask the Russians and British. Besides which, all the US needs to do is grab Bin Laden. An airborne division can hold an airbase where special forces teams can be stationed to grab him as soon as any intel comes in. Best way I think, but not easy.









I'm afraid that if some special ops were to kill or grab Osama, his followers would unleash a terrible wave of terrorism upon the USA (or even the entire western world). A few days ago i saw a documentary on the BBC where some experts estimated that Osama could have up to 100.000 followers who are ready to die for him (or their cause). This week a poll conducted among immigrants in The Netherlands revealed that 26% of the immigrants of morrocan origin would be ready to fight for their Islamic brothers. (Thats a huge number considering the number of morrocan immigrants in Holland).

It sounds like we have an army to fight.

Also as far as I have heard, the USA is not going to war with any country,just terrorism & those that support it.

So I keep hearing, but what does that mean? Is it just an open ended excuse to clamp down on whatever and whoever the government decides to clamp down on? Is it a 'war' against Bin Laden? His organisation? All terrorists? Some terrorists? Who is a terrorist? Where is the exit strategy?

And those who support it? Well the US may have to make some tricky decisions:


Robert Fisk, Independent: for example, the pro-Israeli militiaman who murdered two Irish UN soldiers in southern Lebanon in 1980 and who now live in Detroit after flying safely out of Tel Aviv. The Irish have the name and address, if the FBI are interested – but of course they're not.

Despite all this optimism, this looks like being one of the murkiest, messiest conflicts if we're talking about 'war'. If on the other hand we're talking about international justice, there is a clear way to approach this.

<i>"Is it a 'war' against Bin Laden? His organisation? All terrorists? Some terrorists? Who is a terrorist? Where is the exit strategy?"</i>

There is a blacklist:

Al-Qaida/Islamic Army
Abu Sayyaf Group
Armed Islamic Group
Harakat ul-Mujahidin
Al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Asbat al-Ansar
Salafist Group for Call and Combat
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya
Islamic Army of Aden

Osama bin Laden
Muhammad Atif; also known as Subhi Abu Sitta, Abu Hafs Al Masri
Sayf al-Adl
Shaykh Saiid; also known as Mustafa Muhammad Ahmad
Abu Hafs the Mauritanian; also known as Mahfouz Ould al-Walid, Khalid Al-Shanqiti
Ibn Al-Shaykh al-Libi
Abu Zubaydah; also known as Zayn al-Abidin Muhammad Husayn, Tariq
Abd al-Hadi al-Iraqi; also known as Abu Abdallah
Ayman al-Zawahri

Thirwat Salah Shihata
Tariq Anwar Al-Sayyid Ahmad; also known as Faith, Amr al-Fatih
Muhammad Salah; also known as Nasr Fahmi Nasr Hasanayn
Makhtab Al-Khidamat/Al Kifah
Wafa Humanitarian Organization
Al Rashid Trust
Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export Co.

Originally posted by odin
That is very debatable,what they said & what happened might be two different things.
It is denied by the accused.
opps think I got the wrong end of the stick here.

While you want to debate, there are people dying in the name of Allah, supposedly the same God as the Bible.

Originally posted by Cris
kmguru,

I said educate not indoctrinate. Trying to replace one irrational belief with another achieves nothing.

Cris

May be the methods need to be changed. Test that in the state of Utah, if it works, then you can go outside and educate.

Originally posted by Deadwood
kmguru, don't think with all the US and allies military might it is going to be easy to fight Afghanistan. They know the terrain. I think this is mostly why you guys didn't land at Kosovo, you would have got whipped.

We are going to use our military might to terrorize the supporters of terrorists. The truth is the terrorists may be willing to give up their life (because they are brainwashed) but the people who support them are power hungry, smart and normal people. Get to the roots, and you solve the problem.


Don't you remember what happened to Hitler's forces in the USSR? There soldiers weren't equipped for the terrain, the Afghanies live in it.

Again, this will not be a conventional war. Fight wit with wits.


Don't be arrogant with all you military might. My step-grandfather told me the story about one of his dogs who used to win every dog fight. Then one day his dog went up against a little dog. My step grandfather thought it would be easy until that dog bit his dogs {censored}. So don't be complacent.

Again, you are thinking war in a conventional sense of a few years ago. The Paradigm has shifted. And we know how to fight in the new Paradigm.


Also, when did this war against terroism become a war of Christianity vs Islam? Christians don't even take up arms to fight people of different religions as a religion. We might fight for our country but that is doing our duty. As cris said, Jesus said love your enemies. There is no holy war in Christianity because there is no need for one. The pope like Osama Bin Laden justify religions for their holy wars of gaining power. Not the Bible or the Quaran.

All wars are based on ideology. Hindus Vs Moslems, Christians Vs Moslems, Capitalist Vs Communist and so on....

If a group of Moslems go door to door in Alabama, do you know what will happen to them? They will be shot on sight by the locals.

Denying the conflict just makes it worse. It is a religious conflict plain and simple and should be dealt with properly.

Originally posted by TheRealDcoy
I'm afraid that if some special ops were to kill or grab Osama, his followers would unleash a terrible wave of terrorism upon the USA (or even the entire western world). A few days ago i saw a documentary on the BBC where some experts estimated that Osama could have up to 100.000 followers who are ready to die for him (or their cause). This week a poll conducted among immigrants in The Netherlands revealed that 26% of the immigrants of morrocan origin would be ready to fight for their Islamic brothers. (Thats a huge number considering the number of morrocan immigrants in Holland).

That is exactly what will happen. Because we are thinking this conflict from a military point of view. World War III is not far behind. There is a way to solve it, but it needs a charismatic leader. We do not have one.

Hmm, I don't see it as a religious struggle on the part of our allies. It's more of a war on chaos.

That is because, acknowledgement could undermine our response.

I think that, as people in the west gain a greater understanding of Islam and its people, there will be less fear of the Middle East. In truth, Islam worships the same god as those in the west. People are--and more so now in America--curious about the muslim peoples. I wonder, what else might come of this conflict. Could it be that The Last Prophet will bring new hope for this world?

We may be witnessing the birth of a new world religion. Hmm...

Islam is not the threat. Those who cause harm under the pretense of holy justification bring war upon us now. I think everyone can see that.

to get this lot and their followers:

There is a blacklist:

Al-Qaida/Islamic Army
Abu Sayyaf Group
Armed Islamic Group
Harakat ul-Mujahidin
Al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Asbat al-Ansar
Salafist Group for Call and Combat
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya
Islamic Army of Aden

Osama bin Laden
Muhammad Atif; also known as Subhi Abu Sitta, Abu Hafs Al Masri
Sayf al-Adl
Shaykh Saiid; also known as Mustafa Muhammad Ahmad
Abu Hafs the Mauritanian; also known as Mahfouz Ould al-Walid, Khalid Al-Shanqiti
Ibn Al-Shaykh al-Libi
Abu Zubaydah; also known as Zayn al-Abidin Muhammad Husayn, Tariq
Abd al-Hadi al-Iraqi; also known as Abu Abdallah
Ayman al-Zawahri

Thirwat Salah Shihata
Tariq Anwar Al-Sayyid Ahmad; also known as Faith, Amr al-Fatih
Muhammad Salah; also known as Nasr Fahmi Nasr Hasanayn
Makhtab Al-Khidamat/Al Kifah
Wafa Humanitarian Organization
Al Rashid Trust
Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export Co.

Piece of cake!

Who are they kidding? Are they going to go to war against 60+ countries? Are they going to weed out all the terrorists posing as regular citizens in Europe, UK and the USA? Do you really think these are feasible options?

If this horrendous crime was really commited by the accused, why hasn't any one of them admitted it? If it's retribution against their perceived enemy (America) for a just cause (in their eyes) why hasn't any one of them declared it? Why indeed, have they actually denied it? After all, according to the media they're not afraid of dying, on the contrary their martyrdom assures them a place in heaven! So, as they've got nothing to lose and everything to gain, I repeat, why has not one of them come out and admitted it?

This question creates an area for doubt. Maybe they did do it and this denial is meant to confuse people, maybe to make them think of conspiracies, maybe to make some of them suspicious of and turn away from their government.. maybe. But if that is actually the case, what would these groups ultimately gain by being coy? After all they have apparently already declared 'death to all Americans' so why play mind games? Why not come straight out and declare their biggest victory to date?

I wouldn't like to speculate as to who the real perpatrators of this heinous act might be if it's really not any of these fundamentalist groups, but those words, war and Afghanistan were mentioned in the same breath from the first day of the atrocities, as if to a plan. Bin Ladin was 'in hiding' in Afghanistan at the time (a difficult place for the US to catch him indeed), isn't it ironic that at the time Clinton ordered his death or capture in '98, he was 'in hiding' in Turkey? Turkey is a NATO ally, a friend of the USA and I would imagine that American agents shouldn't have had a great problem in locating him had they really wanted to. Heck, if they couldn't catch him there, what makes them think they can catch him now, wherever he might be?

Is there a hidden agenda to all this? Has Afghanistan been chosen for other reasons? Apparently, even if he has escaped its borders, this country is still going to be 'punished' for harbouring him. Will they punish Turkey also?

If it's going to be a war against Afghanistan, it will have to be one of almost total annihilation and destruction, because the Taliban won't be beaten any other way and everybody knows this. Such an act is bound to inspire and spawn even more hatred and terror against America and her helpers.

Why?

As an ordinary, healthyly cynical, thinking individual I can only speculate, but maybe it's so that they can wipe out the retro, uncooperative Taliban, then introduce 'stability', under a puppet government or a placed dictator or occupation by a neighbouring 'friendly' country (Iran? Pakistan?), gain access and first choice to the vast, untapped mineral, gold and oil reserves and acquire a strategic position against China. Does this sound absurd? Perhaps perhaps.

Will they catch Bin Ladin during all of this? Perhaps perhaps.

At the moment, most of the world doesn't agree to all out attack on Afghanistan, but all it will take to move world public opinion is another one or two 'Afghani inspired terrorist outrages' and they'll be ready for it. Terrorised and frightened people will accept anything to 'make the bad thing go away'. Hence, this will also provide a great opportunity to start tagging all of us with electronic ID's 'for our own protection', in this sudden, radically new, all-out 'war' against terrorism and dawning of the age of big brother. A new world order in the making indeed.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong.

No other religion on the face of this planet will destroy the statue of Budhha or any artifact of historical significance. For that the Talibans should be considered the enemy of humanity and eliminated.

It is the fault of Islam? May be not. Is it the fault of the mideast Islamic states who reap the benefits of oil by the grace of Allah, YES.

I didn't mean that the military underdog wins. I was afraid that might be looked at like that. I was saying more so that the force unexpected to win, regardless of size or power can win. This applys to the Taliban kicking our ass, and vice versa. Take that as encouragement or a deturrent, everyone knows my view.

Cris, long time no see. So happy that you are in the World Affairs & Politics forum, I'll try to get back into the science stuff after this cools down a bit. I'm pretty sure that we'd reducated and rebulid after whatever type of war occurs. This will really involve revamping US foreign policy, like it was 1945 today. With no Soviet Union, Central Asia, the Middle East and East Asia, as well as Eastern Europe will be the core hotspots until we fix them.

Pray for peace, but be ready for war.

tablariddim,

The conspiracy theories are many, but I think the first is most probable. If I were to place my suspicions on another group, it would be those shady characters who propagate ISO 9000, 9001, 9002, 9003, 9004, 10011, and 10013 within the workplace. It's the working mans harness, you know.

--No other religion on the face of this planet will destroy the statue of Budhha or any artifact of historical significance.--

Er, the words Christians and (north and south) American Indian cultures immediately spring to mind.

Posted by kmguru
Is it the fault of the mideast Islamic states who reap the benefits of oil by the grace of Allah, YES.

Saudi ARabia and UAE are undoubtedly complicit in the Talban's success, but then so is the US and West to a lesser degree. The SAS provided the present government with invaluable guerrilla warfare training that they have honed into a fine art.

Incidentally, has anyone noticed the plummeting oil prices? Lowest for over a year - largest single day drop on Monday for over a decade. Could bounce back a little, but I would say this is the end of OPEC's two-year run - oil prices are now structurally lower. Another unanticipated consequence of WTC. There are many...

Originally posted by Captain Canada
Incidentally, has anyone noticed the plummeting oil prices? Lowest for over a year - largest single day drop on Monday for over a decade. Could bounce back a little, but I would say this is the end of OPEC's two-year run - oil prices are now structurally lower. Another unanticipated consequence of WTC. There are many...

Remember a few weeks ago, I posted in this forum, about world economy and how a drop in oil prices will help a lot? I did send a letter to our president about that and to a think tank that does advices to business and government too. Anyway, that is part of a plan to improve economy worldwide....

But I thought I'd go back to the topic post:
Well I've figured out what this war will be called, against Afghanistan anyways. The other two wars were called the Anglo-Afghan and Soviet-Afghan wars.To be honest, the phrase I've started using to refer to the coming bloodbath, and one that seems to resonate well with my friends, is Afghani Bush War.

Yeah, I know ... but I thought I'd throw it in anyway.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa,

Do you really think it will go that far? I think not. Watch. We will be playing covert ops and use it as a playground for our troops. Everyone will be getting their CIB's soon.

Originally posted by kmguru
Remember a few weeks ago, I posted in this forum, about world economy and how a drop in oil prices will help a lot? I did send a letter to our president about that and to a think tank that does advices to business and government too. Anyway, that is part of a plan to improve economy worldwide....

Sorry, I had not grapsed the depth of your powers to affect the global economy, nor your influence within the White House. :D

Are you posting from an undersea bunker, stroking a persian cat with a finger lingering over a button to dispatch any poor fools who enter your lair to the icy depths of a shark infested tank below?

Well, I guess we'll see if it's the chicken or the egg. I personally think this fall could not have happened now unless WTC (it is the spanner in the works for OPEC). Still, we'll see if it helps regardless of why.

As for the Afghani Bush War, I think it began about a week ago...
No fireworks display before the first pitch this time.

Bowser--
Do you really think it will go that far? The whole of your post makes a good point, but the answer here is that I think it's going to be ugly. Politically speaking, where Bush has put us is a scary place; whether we unleash the bombs or do it quiet-like, the whole world is watching, and soon enough, Dubya will catch some flak for this. There's nothing he can do about it, but that's what he gets for using words like crusade so early in the process. We know, for instance, that it is not wise personally to speak on a subject when still initially angry: does this extrapolate to the "national voice"?

In a full-blown war, we could expect a slow toppling of Islamic states as American forces are increasingly perceived to be out of hand. Sure, that latter is an assumption upon which the former assumption is built, but I think that condition will be inevitable, and the power of such a sentiment to catch among peoples is striking. It's a risk we would run if we took the aggressive route--remember that "surgical bombing" was only 33% accurate during the Gulf War (admittedly, a CNN and AP number). High collateral damage will erode the latitude we would have with the Islamic world, and if it truly is a long war, that could spell a longer, broader, and more violent war.

In the covert war, we run the risk of the entire world's wrath. While such things form a large part of the fundamentalist-Islamic complaint against the west (the list is long), we must also remember that other parts of the world have just about had it with us on this count, too. One of my favorite Doonesbury strips is from Poppy Bush's Panamanian Experience, when a Central American executive reminds the prez of a long (partial) list of US interventions in Central America and the Caribbean. (Okay, so the guy knows his history, is the punchline, a telling accusation of American attitudes in itself.) Part of the motivation for the recent decline of US candidacies for UN commission seats stems from fatigue toward our meddling foreign policy.

And at home, Dubya will face an increasingly impatient public. While I am well in favor of winning the world's support with evidence of bin Laden's guilt, and while I am well in favor of waiting on this little military idea for the moment, Bush has promised all sorts of vengeance against people that he will have to deliver on. Will mere rocket attacks against the Taliban be enough to satisfy his threats against those who harbor terrorists if, by some means, we actually get bin Laden without a war?

No matter what happens, we're about to sacrifice something in exchange for something else. Whether dignity or prestige or technology, the world will do some catching up after a long, large war. The more covert the method, the more we stand to irritate other nations; this may seem inconsequential until we consider--again--the declining of US candidacies for UN commission seats; these will have a broad impact on the world, and possibly create more situations that will, in one way or another, conflict with American interests and thereby endanger the world.

But no matter how I look at it, it's going to be bad: people are going to die, politics makes ridiculous bedfellows, and even though we, the people of the US have been wronged, we're still the ones with the most to lose in this.

I will not go so far as to say that Dubya will press forth with a war to save his political hide, because that's just not fair; but we must necessarily keep in mind that the people have been promised certain and swift vengeance. If he can bring us the truly guilty without a war, he will go down in history as brilliant; anything short of that, and we're going to see a lot more blood spilled over this at some point.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Hi Captain Canada:

Me and my friends enjoyed your post. Here is another item, you need to remember when talking to your friends on the subject:

Everytime, a lot of senators and other so-called experts come on in a tele program, be they CNN, CBS or NBC - they all have same opinion that we are downing with information, we have too many government agencies that do not share information, we do not really know who the enemy is and we are swimming in the fog, shooting randomly to hit something.

It is one thing to tell the law enforcement agencies to go after the criminal and another to prevent future crime. We are in a "go after the criminal" mode. After we punish the parties involved, the law enforcement agency part will be over. Then they will wait for another crime to happen.

The part to get to the root cause and prevent future crime is difficult to solve and hence may not be done. We do not have an official group with high authority for prevention of such crimes.

It is similar to fighting drug war. We have declared war against illegal drug use. We poured billions of dollars to uphold the law, choke off the supply, but have spent very little to eliminate the demand. We are using the same model here. How good it will work? Your guess is as good as mine.

The drug lords are not stupid and so are the terrorists.

<i>"Me and my friends enjoyed your post."</i>

Yeah, I enjoyed it too. Thanx for the laugh, CC.

Tiassa,

In short, I think that, yes, Bush will be remembered for what comes of this. My thoughts are mixed, but I feel that need for retribution.

My thoughts are mixed, but I feel that need for retribution.Indeed; as an American, it would distress me to let this deed go unpunished. But as a member of human society, I know that warfare solves nothing. On a surface level, it's a matter of degrees, much as I assert that human and Universal differentiation is a matter of ratios. But even when I look at "proper" wars (Neil Simon, in one play or another, writes something along the lines of WWII being the last "good" war in the sense of clear objectives and notions of right and wrong), I see much that could have been done to alleviate the situation before it got that far. (We might pause at some point, in relation to WWII, and wonder about Britain and the German navy, Franco, &c. ...)

I think about our anticommunist work in Korea and Vietnam, and wonder how we got to a Cold War: the United States government cannot deny its efforts to unseat the Bolsheviks, and cannot demonstrate a philosophical understanding of Bolshevik Communism. The point here is that Americans helped provoke that whole mess, and ended up getting involved at one point in a French colonial issue that became the most controversial non-war in American history.

On the one hand, it's not quite proper to say that Bush's use of the word crusade indicates his utter lack of understanding regarding our declared foe. To the other, nobody ever claimed that Dubya understands fundamentalist revolutionary Islam. In fairness to both the president and the situation, though, I would suggest that our Executive take a long, hard look at America's recent involvement with terrorists (Reagan years is a good start for that chapter) and the growing international voice of complaint regarding US poicy. It isn't that we owe bin Laden anything, much less concessions. But as long as we continue the "No negotiation with terrorists" bent, we'll sound like the post-Littleton crowd saying, "Why, why?" when the villains are telling us their reasons.

To this notion, I do not mean to imply that the villains are telling us their reasons coherently ... reminding Americans that we're the Great Satan is like telling a supermodel you think she's pretty. (Hear it all the time ... who the hell are you to be talking to me?)

The actual problem with "no negotiation with terrorists" is not that we should negotiate. No quid-pro-quo will help solve the larger problem. But even among Americans, when a manifesto or other declaration of purpose is put before the public and its institutions, such ideas are met with derision. Yes, we know the Unabomber's manifesto was nutty, but inside it is his justification for murder--is there not some value to be had in its contribution to understanding the motives of lethal human division? After Littleton, I heard many psychs and pundits commenting on the reasons why, and the few occasions the gunners' own declarations came up, those declarations were dismissed as secondary, as "excuses", or otherwise useless. Whether or not we accept the reasons given, however, reasons were given. In other words, the idea of not negotiating with terrorists has created a climate in which we do not pay attention to anything other than the label "terrorist", and thus fail to understand that there exists a perception of imbalance that has become so extreme that someone is willing to kill and die for it. That imbalance is critical.

One of the brightest people I know is frothing at the mouth for blood; as much as he sympathizes with my sentiments against war, he justifies the current call to arms with, "We're good, they're evil." So ...

Based on what?
Freedom, equality ... &c.
So based on our own perception of right and wrong?
Yes.
But that's what they think about us. Exactly.
But they're wrong. We're good, they're evil.
But based solely on our own standards that we prefer to keep as ideals, and not practices.
You're either with us, or against us ....

The most frightening dimension of the warfare response is that one cannot, apparently, wish for a better solution without being perceived as betraying America. I hereby refer, once again, to Emma Goldman's writings on Patriotism: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/patriotism.html
Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.

The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that, from early infancy, the mind of the child is poisoned with blood-curdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. When the child has reached manhood, he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner . . . . This is a Western, post-Judaic, Anarchist assertion circa 1918 ... I can also stop and consider a recent essay I read by Emir Ali Khan, included in the anthology Sufi Thought and Action:
The members of all communities, including nations and whole civilizations, are infused with the prevailing ideologies of those communities. These, in turn, create attitudes of mind which include certain capacities and equally positively exclude others.

The ideologies may be so ancient, so deep-seated or so subtle that they are not identified as such by the people at large. In this case they are often discerned only through a method of challenging them, asking questions about them or by comparing them with other communities.

Such challenge, description or questioning, often the questioning of assumptions, is what frequently enables a culture or a number of people from that culture to think in ways that have been closed to most of their followers.It seems to me that we have here two similar assertions built in different contexts, but the key is their common perspective as relates to the current situation: We must transcend our traditional ideas in order to see the solution. This means everybody involved, whether participating, watching, or sleeping through it.

Because in the end, certain political solutions will, in fact, reduce the violence (there is, of course, bin Laden's comments regarding the destruction of all Americans, but I'm trying to maintain the broader perspective here ....). Unfortunately, those solutions are ones we find unacceptable for certain reasons, many of which are, at their root, mere cultural prejudices so inherent that we do not readily see them as such: hence, good and evil, instead of a poor meeting of ideas.

In the relative moral scheme I advocate, yes, we are the good guys; but one must always be prepared to be wrong about such broad points from time to time, especially with such legitimate complaints about US foreign policy as we see around the world. For those who say such terrorism was inevitable (and I am among that flock), this is largely the reason: we assume ourselves to be superior to our declared foes, and forfeit our capacity to comprehend what they're saying. Without comprehension, it is unwise and perhaps even immoral to dismiss someone's claims out of hand merely because they are terrorists. Certes, there is a difference 'twixt bin Laden and, say, the IRA's "revolution", but I seem to recall that the powers that be generally ignored Irish Republican complaints--because they were "terrorists"--until nobody could ignore it any longer. We must deal with the current threat to our country, but we have a moral obligation to ourselves as Americans and to our international neighbors to not ignore the complaining voices "over there", nor dismiss them because they perceive mortal necessity before we do.

I'll stop now because I could literally filibuster the war like this if such were possible. I also feel the need to advise, Bowser, that this rambling post is more brought about by your considerations than presented in opposition or direct response to.

Anyway, thanx for the minutes ....

--Tiassa :cool:

"no negotiation with terrorists"

What part of NO dont you understand?
We are willing to lose $1.5 trillion dollars in stock value - after all it is just money...

We are willing to lose $500 billion in damages - after all it is just money

We are willing to lose people - after all their sacrifice will be an impetus to revenge (oops...justice)

We are willing to lose our freedom - we must.

WHY? PRIDE

Hi kmguru,

WHY? PRIDE

... And now we've come to - what I think - is the main reason for the anti-American attitude in the Middle-East and other countries. Solve that problem and you solve most of the threat.

Bye!

Crisp

Hi Crisp:

I know that, you know that...but we are the little guys...even if we have the solution, who is going to listen? The "Pride" will get in their way...

The "Pride" is the first "Sin" in The Book. The end of the world comes after we go through the rest of the sins.

KMGuru

Indeed: it is just money. Indeed, it is just money. And indeed, it is merely revenge. I have to agree with you on all counts there. Maybe if I thought a war would accomplish anything: I'm willing to sacrifice to evil to stop a larger evil, but when I look at what bombing out Afghanistan (or any other nation) in pursuit of bin Laden will accomplish, what I see is a slow building of reactionary sentiment that could infect the more educated Muslims of the world; at some point, they will recoil from the excess. (There will be inflammatory photos of dead children and crying mothers and the like.) But I can see us losing Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, and a few other countries and suddenly we'll have a grand conflict on our hands. While I'm not so cynical to declare it as definitive, I cannot ignore the possibilty that this could spiral into something larger than the Big One.

Crisp

You've hit the nail ... unfortunately, this is where the aforementioned "unacceptable" solutions come into play. Even if we pretend for an academic moment that the WTC attack didn't happen--in effect, removing the razor-sharp hawk sentiment--and look at the situation, what is the likelihood that we in the West will collectively accept and thus empower our institutions toward a foreign policy more respectful of various Islamic concerns? Now, if we reinsert reality--thouands dead and much destroyed--how much lesser is that already-anemic likelihood?

It's like saying, "I'm going to fix the car." (What does it need?) "Fixing." (How are you going to fix that?) "Repair." (I see ....)

Or, to borrow a concept from elsewhere at Sciforums: "Timmy, we're going to put your arm in a cast so it can heal." How's it gonna heal, Doctor Friendly? "Dunno. It'll ... just happen."

(I'll get off my soapbox now.) ;)

thanx all,
Tiassa :cool:

followed the link on this page??
http://www.sciforums.com/t4045/s/thread.html

Something to ponder:


The tragic events in the USA have managed to rally the entire western (free) world together and fight a common terrible enemy. That I believe is a good thing, and maybe going into terrorist friendly countries and kicking some butt is warranted...HOWEVER consider this, the USA has bombed a fair few countries in recent times, many hundreds and indeed thousands of people were killed due to those bombings and attacks...all of these were justified and I suspect a result of economic considerations (behind a humanitarian veil)....the western world was able to ignore these events (mostly, certainly by the general public)...now a devestating attack on the USA has made us all sit up and take notice....do you all think that perhaps the reason why we are taking notice now is because it has happened to people we can identify with rather then some faceless, nameless impovrished foriegner in a land we've no desire to see or even contimplate??? or if you like people we extend ourselves the luxury of ignoring.

Hi all,

KMGuru
"I know that, you know that...but we are the little guys...even if we have the solution, who is going to listen? The "Pride" will get in their way..."

Yes, I experienced that here during the first days after the attack ;). Fortunately rational seems to haven taken the place of the "patriotic" (= pride) sentiments.

Tiassa
"Unfortunately, this is where the aforementioned "unacceptable" solutions come into play. Even if we pretend for an academic moment that the WTC attack didn't happen--in effect, removing the razor-sharp hawk sentiment--and look at the situation, what is the likelihood that we in the West will collectively accept and thus empower our institutions toward a foreign policy more respectful of various Islamic concerns?"

Nonexistant, but then again, I haven't ever liked the West's foreign policy in Africa and the Middle-East ;). And, as you IMHO correctly pointed out in your reply to Kmguru, it's just all about the money. "Hey, we've found diamants the size of a fist in Middle-Africa, let's build a factory there, wipe some villages off the map and use the local population as cheap labor". In the Middle-East, ít's all about the oil. I simply cannot believe that ANY nation (US or European) is going to "help the poor people of Afghanistan in their battle for terror" and spend billions in doing so. Just firing ONE missile costs millions of dollars alone, there simply has to be a reason behind it all... I think it's oil (which is just another manifestation of money).

But I don't want to pretend the country I live in is innocent either, Belgium has a cruel history in the republic of Congo. It just seems to be a movement that the entire West has taken somewhere in the colonial times. And all for some worthless notes of paper - incredible (Crisp shaking his head in disbelief).

Rambler

I think you just summarized the entire foreign policy of the West: "Do we gain something ? No, then let them go to hell. Yes? Okay, what does it take in military actions to get the most out of it. Oh and by the way, try to limit the "colateral damage"".

The reason why now all of the sudden the entire West is on its horse is entirely to blame to the media I think (or the "forces" behind it): 5000 people die of hunger every day, and yet there's 20% more food on the world than we need to survive, it just gets thrown away here. So just every now and then (mostly around November, I think it's Thanksgiving then ?) we see some fragments of children starving to death, we donate some money and can sleep with peace of mind again. That's the attitude of the West, we simply swallow what we get served in the greatest entertainment spectacle of all times: the commercial media :).

(Crisp getting irritated about the attitude of the West)

Ever wondered why we hardly see requests for aid in the summer or in spring ? The people are outside, barbequeing, having fun and the commercial media doesn't want to spoil our mood by images that show the other side of the world. But once it is winter, we are inside, nice and cosy with the heating turned all the way up, we suddenly see those images and then we feel sorry. It's this kind of ignorant attitude that is the root of many problems in non-Western nations. Add to that the pride and stuborness of most of the West and you get what we saw 2 weeks ago.

Bye!

Crisp

It's a culture clash, gentlemen. We have over there a primitive mindset which desires to cause us harm. Also, it is not just the West which involves money in other regions. This is a global economy. Who shares in our wealth?

The tragic events in the USA have managed to rally the entire western (free) world together and fight a common terrible enemy.

Who is the enemy?

Remember, the support comes from one billion moslems out there. WHY?

After this Osama is gone, how can we stop future Osamas?

Remember, the support comes from one billion moslems out there. Are there really a billion bloodlusting fundie Muslims out there? See, if we hold the larger body of Muslims responsible for the violent factions, we justify what has been done to the United States.

How does one justify the "guilt" of the WTC dead? (One need not agree with such justifications, but merely recognize their foundations.) Our US foreign policy is centered around economy and finance more than anything else. Our pursuit of economic advantage has led the US to implement some bad policies in various corners of the world on a fairly regular basis. To hold Islam in general responsible for the WTC bombing is to justify the terrorists' holding the average Westerner responsible for the governments we choose. Do we hold all Chrisitans responsible for the murder of abortion-performing doctors? There's a tenuous but valid argument by which we can, but that would also call for the elimination of all Catholics in retribution for the Inquisitions, all leftists, in retribution for Stalinist atrocities, and all conservatives for the general abuse socio-economic conservatism wreaks on just about anyone. All men for our penchant to rape; all women for original sin ... at this point, we have effectively hamstrung the species mortally.

Look at any one of our Christian posters: how would we react if a disturbed, disgruntled revolutionary shot one of our posters to death in retribution for the murder of a doctor, or for even more subtle "crimes"? Is it fair to blame all Christians for the doctor's murder, and thus exact revenge? I'll blame "Christians" for a lot in the world by their apathy (my perception thereof), but something so extreme as murder? Doesn't pan out.

If all of Islam lines up against us after the fighting starts openly, it will be because we forfeit their support with our excesses.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Are there really a billion bloodlusting fundie Muslims out there? See, if we hold the larger body of Muslims responsible for the violent factions, we justify what has been done to the United States.

What I meant was, Muslims pay money to charities. The money goes to do good work, prevent Christian encroachment, and in support of preventing anti-Moslem activities. So on the surface it looks good. But the result is not so good.

Same stuff happens in Christianity. Money is collected to preach Christianity in China, India, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. While the thought is noble, Moslems do not take that kindly. Some money ends up with bombing abortion clinics, hate crimes (gay bashing etc). While even the militant Christians do not actively go out and bomb middle eastern countries, they do influence the relationship between nations.

In the end, our actions cause reactions, to which we react...the cycle continues just like the fight between Israel and Palestine with no solution in sight....

It is easy to blame the other party from where one stands. I am worried that if we could not solve the Israel-Palestine issue, what makes us think that we can solve this specific Osama issue anytime soon?

Judging by the tone of my prior post, it seems I've taken your post wrong. I think we'll find we agree on much, and if I seemed pressing over the billion-Muslim point, let me now amend that to say that I think you've expressed the point well.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Now, this is getting interesting.

<i>"Who is the enemy?"</i>

It would seem that our enemy are those religious extremist who would kill in the name of god.

<i>"Remember, the support comes from one billion moslems out there. WHY?"</i>

I'm not certain so many of Islamic faith support Osama.

<i>"After this Osama is gone, how can we stop future Osamas?"</i>

Good question.

I'm not certain so many of Islamic faith support Osama.

No, they do not, if they understand what is happening to the money, they give. Money and objectives are misdirected by propagonda and deception.

There was a large demonstation by Moslems in India for Indian's support for US. Well the rumor was that, India is going to send Gurkha special forces to extract Osama (Note: Gurkhas are the toughest fighters on this planet - no one comes even close).

Tiassa is not a girl....

LOL! You should change your alias to "Mr. Tiassa," Tiassa.

Sure, it has some practical function, like helping you decide who to sleep with. But since the woman I should have married long ago told me she will do so now if I undergo a gender reassignment, it's all relative.

Also, I keep thinking the gender confusion would amuse Mr Brust, the creator of tiassas. But that's mere speculation, and I'll ask him the next chance I get--though it may be a year or so before I have the opportunity to see him again; I'm hardly on a name-basis with the man.

But about the only difference it seems to make is on the occasion that someone gets upset at me for being a strumpet or hussy or something silly like that. Apparently, if they thought I was male, my behavior would reflect differently. It's not so much that I'll never name my kids "Kelly" or "Pat", but that I might name my daughter Josh and my son Heidi, just to screw with their classmates. ;) (For the record, the woman-I-should-have-married-turned-lesbian would have named our son "Toi". Like I said, it's all relative.)

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

Gender should not make too much difference in a debate - though sometimes it screws up the assumptions, creating an ass out of U and Me!!

All in good fun...

That's okay, I'm sure. Teassa enjoys challenging popular perceptions regarding gender compliance...<img src = "http://www.sciforums.com/t4034/s43b4a690e960258f566636048fcebaf0/images/icons/icon10.gif">

This thread is going south fast...perhaps because nothing is happening in Afghanistan lately. We are still searching for Osama.

The fall out of all these is security officials at the airport are frisking 95 year old woman at San Francisco Airport.

Airlines have laid off thousands of people so that they can get our tax dollars. But when you show up at the airport, only a handful of people are available to service you.

P.S. To anyone living outside of the US or Britian, why is that when you guys need help you bark to us, and when we suffer a national tradgedy you can't even pledge support or resources of any kind against an organization that aims to destroy everything free, and non-Islamic.

I know i'm only Canadian..and i'm likely not able to read (it's just too damned cold in this here igloo, to try book learning), and i'm sure Canada (regular citizens in fact, into thier own homes in fact) didn't take in about 2000 americans who were stranded in Toronto and other Canadian airports for 4 days when their flights were diverted. I know for a fact that no Canadian will be fighting alongside the Allies in this war. Nor did thousands of Canadians give blood that was shipped to the survivors in NYC and D.C.. I know that the highschool just up the street from me didn't hold a bake sale to raise money for the relief efforts.

Funny ya know....

WOOF (dork)

My suggestions to the government of Canada will be to get on with the program of US Security, otherwise the borders will be sealed and that means your economy will go south. Better yet, this may be the time to merge with USA.

kmguru:
...otherwise the boarders will be sealed...

Are you referring to skate-boarders or snow-boarders? And isn't sealing them a little bit harsh?

We have a free-trade agreement anyway, and if you check the small print I think you'll find that will be rather difficult.

I know, I know, 'we're the US, we can do whatever the hell we want to'. Well, you can also be sued. Besides which it's an idle threat - Canada is the US' biggest trade partner and stands to lose just as much as Canada. Wouldn't do it anyway... I dare you

There will be economic loss on both sides. No one said, it will be one sided. With minor adjustments, it can be avoided. All Canada has to do is watch people landing on her soil. Keep the extremists out, track their money source and pass on that info to US. US should do the same.

what I see is a slow building of reactionary sentiment that could infect the more educated Muslims of the world I do think that that has already happened. Neither Osama or the perpetrators of the WTC/Pentagon action are/were exactly idiots.

<i>"Neither Osama or the perpetrators of the WTC/Pentagon action are/were exactly idiots."</i>

Crazy but not stupid, eh? That probably explains why we haven't rushed to dump a load of pain on Islam. I suppose that it wouldn't require much more prodding.

I do think that that has already happened. Neither Osama or the perpetrators of the WTC/Pentagon action are/were exactly idiots.It's just a number of things. On the one hand, you're absolutely right. To the other, I think I'm after a different process here.

* A common joke my friends and I held several years ago was that There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom; for instance, I know cigarettes are harmful. This knowledge is not foreign to me, yet I still smoke.

* As some of our fellow posters have noted, knowledge (science in the debate I'm recalling) can be abused. This can take many forms. The obvious is using knowledge of chemistry to kill people for political or religious sentiment; it's kind of a glaring issue right now. But how many "specialists" do you know that, despite their apparent intelligence (as evidenced by their grasp of their field), they have become so wrapped up in their work that they "stop being human"? This even in the sense that a man lets his work as a lawyer take precedence over his children (contrasted against the common "children are the future" sentiment in society), or an actor or model who teaches (even inadvertently) a child that appearance is everything.

Having considered the scope of the problem, I submit the notion that fundamentalism arises from a lack of religious education. This is observable, as Karen Armstrong points out in A History of God and devotes much attention to in The Battle for God (this latter volume I have not yet read), in certain Islamic cultures where tyrants such as Ataturk and Khomeni purged the clerics and intellectuals upon establishing their regimes. With no "enlightened" guidance, common religion fell under the influence of superstition and bigotry, and results in people killing and dying for strange ideas about God.

This, I think, would go a long way toward explaining the rise in vicious fundamentalism such as we see in a bin Laden (as well as a few subjective, psychiatric notions, but that's speculative).

But the toppling sentiment I fear is a simple sympathy: as the bombs rain down and images flood the networks showing dying children, scorched flesh, ruined bodies and razed communities, there might spread a certain sense of excess among the more moderate Islamic community that could foster a new sentimental balance. Muslim nations supporting the US for political purposes might become less cooperative, or even take up opposition. At that point, it becomes frighteningly possible that our pursuit of terrorists will, indeed, bleed over into a Crusade against Islam. After all: You're either with us or against us.

At it's best, let's say we get bin Laden without a war. What now, insofar as the Taliban is concerned? Because even if we get bin Laden without a war, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to dismantle al Qaida without a nasty rumble. At worst, though, this could be huge; depending on how badly we upset whom with our actions, we very well could line up a notable portion of the Islamic world against us. And that would include the "average" Muslim who does not countenance terrorism. And at that point, we all have a really big problem on our hands.

I agree that our declared foe is hardly dull. But I do think the fundamentalism he serves is fostered by ignorance and undereducation. We know already to worry about these people, as it's kind of hard not to. But as the collateral damage from our pursuit begins to mount, will we be able to hold the attention and sentiment of the rest of the Islamic world? And if they line up in opposition, are we obliged by our declarations to knock them down? I see the potential for a huge war. And it should be no surprise to anyone here that the idea worries me.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

<i>"...even if we get bin Laden without a war, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to dismantle al Qaida without a nasty rumble."</i>

I think that if we can take off the head(s) of this organization, we will see disorganization within its lower ranks. Possibly limit its reach and ability to cause harm such as the WTC. The thing that disturbs me is that some of these people who participate in the lowest levels of terrorism are educated. Indeed, one of the the pilots of 911 was a student of engineering. Some of these people have the intelect to understand zealotry, yet they are sucked into it and perpetrate its evil.

Here is another thought:

Neutralizing oppostion is not a new idea. Every one does it. If a TV host is not politically correct, the oppostion presses the largest ad sponsor to pull out. There are other ways to reduce death and destruction from the extreme factions - it is in the best interest of the moderate ones. And I think, this is what our government is trying to do, behind the scenes. Whether we can put that pressure up, not for months but for years - is another matter.

If we are forced by public for immediate results, we have to do some fire works. As long as the Bush popularity is up, he has the luxury of doing the right thing. Once the popularity starts sliding, he may be forced to take some rash decisions. And that will not be good.

I think Bush and America at large will handel this as best as any country in our position could.

I'd say by week's end the attack will begin.

I agree whole heartedly ... We'll fuck it up royally!

It was just within the last week or so that the F.B.I. put out an 'all-points' request for translators. That from an agency charged with internal, national, security in a country that in '93 experienced the first strike against the WTC.

We don't even have the humint capability to know where the various Middle East countries stand in this matter, even the 'friendly' ones. And that is not something that can be developed in weeks, or even months. It's not like just putting up another satellite or moving four or more carrier task forces into the area (something that will accomplish nothing more than show America's 'might' and ability to waste money).

We are not 'speaking softly' let alone carrying the 'big stick' needed to pursue this kind of action. We are a scared, bombastic nation that is running around in circles without the necessary resources, or will, to successfully pursue the course of action required.

<i>"I agree whole heartedly ... We'll fuck it up royally!"</i>

Honestly, I'm surprised by the degree of caution and the time being used. I anticipated a strike of one form or another by this time.

<i>"It was just within the last week or so that the F.B.I. put out an 'all-points' request for translators. That from an agency charged with internal, national, security in a country that in '93 experienced the first strike against the WTC."</i>

I would say that the war is taking on larger proportions. Preparation?

<i>"We don't even have the humint capability to know where the various Middle East countries stand in this matter, even the 'friendly' ones. And that is not something that can be developed in weeks, or even months."</i>

The WTC changed everything. It created a dividing line: either you stand on this side or the other. I'm affraid, however, that line is starting to blur. We are searching for excuses and reasons.

<i>"We are not 'speaking softly' let alone carrying the 'big stick' needed to pursue this kind of action. We are a scared, bombastic nation that is running around in circles without the necessary resources, or will, to successfully pursue the course of action required."</i>

I don't see that. I look at it as an awakening. We are still groggy from a long sleep.

As for the aircraft carriers, I bet they are there for Iran. They need a good spanking as a reward for their support of terrorism.

Can someone explane this to me?

Why the hell are there between three and four aircraft carrier battle groups in the Persian Gulf?

Look at a map, its a thousand friggin miles from Afghanistan and you have to fly across Iran to get there. I think Iraq's gonna get the crap kicked out of them.

If anyone could clear this up, I'd sure be happy to know.

There are too many planes to enforce a no fly zone, against areas of their own country.

It is simple thecurly1. Since we do not know, who to hit, we are flexing our muscle so that the guilty party will show their hand. Once that happens, we will know, who it is we need to go after.

An aircraft carrier battle group, with its marines, is equal to the military force of a small nation, each being a mobile military force with the ability to win regional wars.

Those ships were not sent there to impress the Taliban.

Where has all this anti-Iran stuff come from all of a sudden? This is the big worry for me, that the US will use the WTC attack as an excuse to settle old scores. That would be bad.


Bowser:
As for the aircraft carriers, I bet they are there for Iran. They need a good spanking as a reward for their support of terrorism.

Do tell. What are you referring to here? Hizbollah and Hamas? There are plenty of people who see these groups as resistence movements. Besides which, they have not attacked US targets. So why nail Iran? No one bar the US lists the country as a state sponsor of terrorism.

There is a big internal polictical struggle going on in Iran. If the US attacks them that puts paid to any chance of normalising relations. You'll help the conservative mullahs by doing that and spark a serious war.

Iran funds the northern alliance, has no connection with Bin Laden and is not actively trying to destroy US targets.

Iran is, paradoxically, the best hope for regional stability. Big country, big resources, big influence. There is a process of liberalisation and modernisation going on, it is the most democratic country in the region and has found itself on the US side more often than not ironically (Gulf War, position on Afghanistan and Pakistan).

Iran is no pushover, are you all mad!?

I'm also curious to know where all of the anti-Iran, or anti-anything--except anti-terrorism--is coming from.

Okay, I know where some of it comes from--bigotry, fear, and/or ignorance...

But, can anyone tell me why Iran should be focused upon any more than say, Iraq, Syria, u-name-the-country...?

My understanding of the military campaign currently under development--a campaign that will receive valuable input from many nations--is that it's to be an organized military and intelligence effort against global terrorism.

The goal at present seems to be the capture and overthrow of known terrorists who reside with, and who are supported by, the Taliban, (and those who support them) many of whom just happen to have been anchored in Afghanistan in recent times....and who also happen to claim to be Muslims...a religion that has been twisted for furthering terroristic objectives for a long stretch of human history.

Have any Iranians supported the Taliban or Bin Laden?

Probably.

Have any Americans? Palestinians? Russians? Etc...?

Most likely.

The enemy has no distinct skin color or facial feature. At root, this is a war of philosophies. Like most conflicts, it's a battle over rights. (The right to live without fear of being unjustly murdered, to name one.)

It may seem too simple to narrow down the situation in this way. I am well aware that this is a complex problem and believe it should handled with extreme care. Yet I also believe that those who wish to combat global terrorism would do well to better understand the true enemy.

(For what it's worth... )

Remember the statement: Either you are with us or you are with terrorists? This is time to clean house (Fall is a good time too). Those who overtly or covertly come to our side will be asked to support in intelligence. May be Iran will finally join us - if they are smart....then the region can have stability...

Either you are with us or you are with terrorists

Yes, I don't think that statement was in any way helpful. I'm sure almost every country in the world is quite happy to see the US grab Bin Laden and his associates for their attack on the US (if it was indeed them), but why must this division be made? It makes things incredibly difficult for countries like Iran who would prefer to show tacit support by remaining neutral and doing nothing.

I'm sure that the US is not intending to genuinely launch a war on terrorism - it would have to do some very awkward things if it did - so why try and make enemies? It's a bullying tactic, and one that really has no place in a world which respects sovereignty, international law and has the UN through which to launch joint action.

It sounds to me like you're hoping the US does use this as an excuse to settle old scores. If it does, the world will not be a safer place, and justice will not be done.

Instead of politicians, why can't we have a council of international intellectuals/writers/journalists etc. to put forward THEIR views of what should be done every time an international outrage is enacted. A voice of REASON and JUSTICE instead of nationalistic rhetoric, which is always biased and one sided. Let's face it, there must be a reason why people do what they do, no matter how outrageous, let's get to the real ROOT of the problem and sort it it out in a way that befits 21st century humanity and logic!
That way, at least everybody can have access to another point of view and then perhaps they can vote on what needs to be done.
Everybody knows or at least should know that rich powerful countries are like the pimp to the slave/whore/patsy of the third world and shouldn't be surprised when the slaves rebel.
Wake up people, injustice is the rich feeding shit to the poor, they can only take so much before they spew it back in your face.

A World Government made of non-politicians? What planet you are from? Anytime anyone gets involved in a decision for a large number of people by definition becomes a politician....

And I do not want a writer to run our planet - it will look like Star Trek....how boring....

<Img Src=http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/osama_proof.jpg>

<Img Src=http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/kabul_forecast.jpg>

<Img Src=http://www.almostaproverb.com/images/dumbasses.gif>

This is the time to settle the old scores in the middle east. For two primary reasons.

First, most of these nations we need to go after, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and probably Iran, among others have harbored the terrorists, encouraged them and provided them with resources to attack us and our allies. They will pay the price with their own destruction to repremand them and to show that America will not allow agression upon us by any group, backed especially by a fellow nation-state.

Second, we must destroy these opressive, totalitarian governments because they will keep destroying freedom everywhere it stands.

You don't leave a tumor in someone's head no matter how large it is or how long its been there. Comprende?

Time, I enjoyed your posting here...thanks.

Excellent job, Time/02112. Fine posts.

wet1
Hi!
Haven't been around lately.

Didn't read all the posts but, here it goes. We should park our hardware right behind the northern Afghanistan forces and advance on Kabul. Right after saturation bombing of key military locations.

We have to remove the Taliban from the limited power they have.

Patman
I agree with you but we will have problems with that approach. It is well known tha the taliban has continued to dig in and tunnel throught the mountains since they came to power. There will be the hard parts to take. The mountian retreats that are no less than fortified and connected bunkers.

First, most of these nations we need to go after, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and probably Iran, among others have harbored the terrorists, encouraged them and provided them with resources to attack us and our allies. Gee, how come you didn't include the good old U.S. of A. - or don't home grown terrorists or supporters of terrorism count?

Good point Chagur... didn't the IRA or Sinn Fein have a lot of fund raisers in the US?

Not only fund raisers, but shippers of arms and explosives.

<Img Src=http://www.sciforums.com/f37/s48b545152ee8c2a33d8ee90660f95c0f/avatar.php?userid=3260&dateline=990925548>
Wet1,
"It is well known tha the taliban has continued to dig in and tunnel throught the mountains since they came to power."

I cocurr with this statement Wet1,
I was telling a channel 10 news reporter (off camera) last week here in San Diego, that the wealthy oil connected families are pleantiful, and that they have had years before Christ ever walked upon this grand earth of ours to settle elaborate tunnel systems beneath the mountains of Kabul, mostost of the upper portions now being used to carry fiber optic lighting below, and the rest for air shafts & ventilation, and it is more than likely that they would be hidding miles below the base of these mountains, shielded by several layers of high-tech alloys within the outer walls for additional protection making it extremely difficult to pluck them out.

Of corse these rich oil connected families would not be hidding among the midst of the open areas of their main civilizations, which would only lend to the destruction of their citizens who support them, thus leaving behind the ones who are truly in power, and responsible for terrorist activity!

I further went on to explain that our most sophisticated bombing attempts on these montains would prove to be retarded by the barriers they shield themselves within the bases of thes mountains therefore the only reasonable solution i could suggest is that we would have to devise a means that would generate earthquakes within them to "Shake Them Out"

I further suggested that we have a little known device that Tesla devised years ago generate such a feat known as the -
"The Tesla Howitzer " and that our U.S GVT & Military skunkworks have had several years in which to perfect & streamline this unique device with the added features that modern technology has to offer. Imagine small earthquake machines being deployed by parachute drops over this area which are controlled by sattalight transmissions, and detonate charges to stake themselves into the earth upon landing, a cone-shaped device that "drill" itself into the earth, and transmitts scaler waves that stack up the waves being generated to create earth-shattering results unknown to the public (untill now.)

Believe me when I say this, make no mistake about it!

here's some of the details on an article written by Tom Bearden, whom is also contracted with the U.S. D.O.E. (Dept. of Energy)
and central Gvt & Military Agencies for those of you who still have doubts...

The Tesla Howitzer - by Tom Bearden
http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy/tesla4.asc
Before the turn of the century, Nikola Tesla had discovered and was utilizing a new type of electric wave. Tesla repeatedly stated his waves were non-Hertzian, and his wireless transmissions did not fall off as the square of the distance. His discovery was apparently so fundamental (and his intent to provide free energy to all humankind was so clear) that it was responsible for the withdrawal of his financial backing, his deliberate isolation, and the gradual removal of his name from the history books. By 1914 or so, Tesla had been successfully isolated and was already nearly a "nonperson." Thereafter Tesla lived in nearly total seclusion, occasionally surfacing (at his annual birthday party for members of the press) to announce the discovery of an enormous new source of free energy, the perfection of wireless transmission of energy without losses, fireball weapons to destroy whole armies and thousands of airplanes at hundreds of miles distance, and a weapon (the "Tesla Shield," I've dubbed it) that could provide an impenetrable defense and thus render war obsolete. In my pursuit of Tesla's secret, it gradually became apparent to me that present orthodox electromagnetic theory is seriously flawed in some fundamental respects. One of these is in the definition and use of THETA, the scalar electrostatic potential. It is this error which has hidden the long-sought Unified Field Theory from the theorists. In the theory of the scalar electrostatic potential (SEP), the idea is introduced of work accomplished on a charge brought in from a distance against the scalar field. The SEP is not a vector field, but is a scalar field. Indeed, scalar potential cannot of itself perform work on a charged mass due to the extremely high SEP of the vacuum itself. Only a differential of SEP between two spatial points can produce force or accomplish work. (Rigorously, a differential of scalar potential between two spatial points constitutes a vector. Only a vector can produce force and do work.) Also, work can only be done on a mass. Further, it takes TIME to move an electron or other charged mass between two spatial points, and so the work performed by a spatial differential of the THETA- Page 1 FIELD requires TIME. Rigorously, the delta SEP is voltage, not SEP per se, and is directly related to the voltage or "E" field. The entire voltage concept depends on the work performed in moving a mass, after that mass has moved. The idea of "voltage" always implies the existence of a steady differential of THETA between two spatial points for a finite length of time, and it also involves the assumption of a flow of actual mass having occurred. SEP, on the one hand, is always a single-point function; on the other hand, difference in potential (i.e., V) is always a two point function, as is any vector. Yet many graduate level physics and electromagnetics papers and texts erroneously confuse THETA and V in the static case! Such an interpretation is of course quite incorrect. Another common assumption in present EM theory -- that the electrostatic potential (0,O) of the normal vacuum is zero --has no legitimate basis. In fact, we know (0,O) is nonzero because the vacuum is filled with enormous amounts of fluctuating virtual state activity, including incredible charge fluctuations. And by virtue of its point definition, (0,O) must be the "instantaneous stress" on spacetime itself, and a measure of the intensity of the virtual state flux th_ough a 4-dimensional spacetime point. Potential theory was largely developed in the 1800's before the theory of relativity. Time flowrate was then regarded as immutable. Accordingly, electrostatic "intensity" was chosen as "spatial intensity," with the connotation of "spatial flux density." This assumes a constant, immutable rate of flow of time, which need not be true at all if we believe relativity. Such a spatial "point" intensity is actually a "line" in 4-space, and not a 4-dimensional "point" at all. Thus the spatial potential -- 0, 3 -- is a very special case of the real spacetime potential -- 0,4, or charge -- and electromagnetic theory today is accordingly a special case of the real 4-space electromagnetism that actually exists! Note also that charge is a 4-dimensional concept. Now mass is a spatial, 3-dimensional concept. Rigorously, mass does not exist in time -- masstime exists in time. Mass and charge are thus of differing dimensionalities! Also, according to quantum mechanics, the charge of a particle -- e.g., of an electron -- is due to the continual flux of virtual particles given off and absorbed by the observable particle of mass. Thus charge also is conceptually a measure of the virtual flux density, and directly related to THETA. Further, since the charge exists in time, it is the charge of a particle of spatial mass that gives it the property of masstime, or existing in time. Here a great confusion and fundamental error has been thrown into the present EM theory by the equating of "charge" and "charged mass." As we have seen, the two things are really very different indeed. Page 2 To speak of a spatial "amount" of charge erroneously_limitsüthe basic EM theory to a fixed time flowrate condition (which of course it was considered to be, prior to Einstein's development of relativity). Thus when the limited present theory encounters a "relativistic" case (where the time flowrate changes), all sorts of extraordinary corrections must be introduced. The real problem, of course, is with the fundamental definitions of electrostatic potential and charge. The spatial "amount" of charge (i.e., the coulomb), as we presently erroneously use the term, is actually the spatial amount of observable "charged mass." To correct the theory, one must introduce the true 4-space SEP and separate the definitions of charge and charged mass. Only when a mass is moved does one have work -- and voltage or vector fields. (The reason one has voltage and E field connected to a normal electrostatically charged object in the laboratory is because an excess of charged-particle masses are assembled on the object, and these masses are in violent motion! A true static charge would have no E field at all.) The THETA field need not involve observable mass accumulation, but only charge (virtual flowrate intensity) accumulation. Accumulated masses are like so many gallons of water; accumulated charge is like so much pressure on both the water (space) and the time in which the water is existing. Now, if one varies the SEP solely as a point function, one would have a purely scalar complex longitudinal wave, and not a vector wave at all. This is the fundamentally new electrical wave that Tesla discovered in 1899. Rigorously, all vector fields are two-point functions and thus decomposable into two scalar fields, as Whittaker showed in 1903. It follows that any vector wave can be decomposed into two scalar waves. By implication, therefore, a normal transverse EM vector wave, e.g., must simply be two coupled scalar (Tesla) waves -- and these scalars independently would be longitudinal if uncoupled. An ordinary transverse EM vector wave is thus two pair-coupled Tesla scalar longitudinal waves, and only a single special case of the much more fundamental electromagnetics discovered by Nikola Tesla. A Tesla (scalar potential) wave -- i.e., a massless wave in pure 0,O, the stress of the spacetime medium -- would have very strange characteristics indeed. For one thing, since it moves in a complex 4-space, it has many more modes of movement than does a simple wave in 3-space. And for another thing, it need not be bound at all by the speed of (vector) light. In current theory, one 0,3-field does not directly interact or couple with other existing 0,3-fields except by simple superposition. Page 3 Therefore presently the THETA-field is considered to have no drag limitation at all, hence infinite velocity. (E.g., as stated in Jackson's, (Classical Electrodynamics, 2nd edition, page 223.) Actually, a 0,4-wave can and will interact with some of the other existing 0,4- waves in the medium transversed, and this interaction can involve pair- coupling into EM vector fields and waves, an interaction not presently in the electrodynamics theory. The result of scalar pair-coupling creates a finite amount of vector "drag" on the 0,4-wave, so it then has less than infinite velocity. However, if this drag is small due to limited pair coupling, the scalar wave's velocity through the slightly dragging medium still may be far greater than the speed of vector EM waves (light) in vacuum. On the other hand, if the pair-coupling is made severe, the THETA- wave may move at a speed considerably below the speed of vector light waves in vacuum. The velocity of the 0,4-wave is thus both variable and controllable or adjustable (e.g., simply by varying its initial amplitude which through a given medium changes the percentage of pair-coupling and hence the degree of drag on the scalar wave.) The Tesla scalar wave thus can have either subluminal or superluminal velocity, in contradiction to present theory. Note that the scalar wave also violates one of Einstein's fundamental postulates -- for the speed of our "new kind of light" wave is not limited to c, and need not be the same to every observer. Thus Tesla scalar waves lead to a new "super-relativity" of which the present Einstein relativity is only a highly special case! But let us now look for some subtle but real examples of scalar waves and scalar pair-coupling in nature. As is well known, a tectonic fault zone can provide anomalous lights, sounds, etc from stresses, piezoelectrical activity, and telluric currents in the earth and through the fault zone. In examining the fault zone phenomena, I finally realized that a fault zone was literally a scalar interferometer -- i.e., if one can have scalar PHI-waves, they can interfere either constructively or destructively. Their interference, however, produces scalar pair-coupling into vector EM waves. This coupling may be at a distance from the interferometer itself, and thus the interferometer can produce energy directly at a distance, without vector transmission through the intervening space. Coupling of THETA waves with the paired scalars comprising ordinary EM vector waves can also occur. If this triplex coupling forms additional EM vector waves 180 degrees out of phase, the ordinary EM wave is diminished or extinguished. Page 4 If the scalar triplex coupling occurs so as to create vector EM waves, the amplitude of the ordinary vector wave is increased. Scalar potential waves can thus augment or diminish, or create or destroy, ordinary EM waves at a distance by pair-coupling interference under appropriate conditions, and this is in consonance with the implications of Whittaker's fundamental 1903 work. An earthquake fault zone is such a scalar interferometer. Stresses and charge pileups exist in the plates on each side adjacent to the fault, with stress relief existing in the middle in the fault fracture itself. Since the rock is locally nonlinear, the mechanical stresses and electrical currents in it are also locally nonlinear. This results in the generation of multiple frequencies of THETA-4-waves from each side of the fault interferometer, yielding two complex Fourier expansion patterns of scalar potential waves. On occasion these two Fourier-transformed scalar wave patterns couple at a distance to produce stable ordinary electromagnetic fields in a 3-dimensional spatial pattern --e.g., a stress light such as the Vestigia light covered in Part I of The Excalibur Briefing. Driven by the erratic tÿo scalar Fourier_ expansion patterns of the scalar interferometer (whose input stresses normally slowly change), an erratic, darting, hovering "spooklight" of the variety studied by Vestigia produced. As the stresses change in each side of the interferometer, the distant scalar coupling zone is affected. Thus the stresslight moves and its form changes, but it may be relatively stable in form for seconds or minutes. Since the stresses in the rock may be intense, the stress light may involve an intense pair or THETA-patterns coupling into the sphere or ball of vector EM energy. The atoms and molecules of the air in the region of the coupled stresslight ball thus become highly excited, giving off radiant energy as the excited states decay. Since much of the piezoelectric material in the stressed rocks is quartz, the features of quartz are of particular interest. Each little quartz is itself highly stressed, and has stress cracks. It is therefore a little scalar interferometer. Further, quartz is transparent to infrared and ultraviolet; and the random orientation of all the quartz scalar interferometers may also form a Prigogine system far from thermodynamic equilibrium. If so, this system can tap into highly energetic microscopic electromagnetic fluctuations to produce large-scale, ordered, relatively stable patterns of electromagnetic energy at a distance. In short, all of this lends support to the formation of relatively stable but somewhat erratic patterns of electromagnetic energy at a distance from the fault itself. Page 5 In the atmosphere, such scalar interferometers could form in clouds or even in the air or between clouds and earth. If so, such rare but occasional "weather" scalar interferometers could account for the rare phenomenon of ball lightening. The intense energy of the ball lightening, as compared to the lesser energy of an earth stress light, could well be due to the enormous electrical charges between clouds or between cloud and earth, available to fuel the scalar interferometer. Very probably it is this phenomenon which gave Tesla the clue to scalar wave interferometry. Thus such phenomena as earth stress lights, ball lightening, and the Tesla system of wireless transmission of energy at a distance with negligible lasses and at speeds exceeding the speed of light may be explained. They are complex, however, and involve fundamental changes to present electromagnetic theory. These changes include utilizing 4-space scalar electrostatic potentials, scalar waves, pair coupling, ordinary 3-dimensional Fourier expansion, the Prigogine effect, and the properties of piezoelectric materials in rocks. Since the scalar potential also stresses time, it can change the rate of flow of time itself. Thus it affects anything which exists in time -- including the mind, both of the individual and at various levels of unconsciousness. Therefore the same functions that result in earth stress lights also affect mind and thought, and are in turn affected by mind and thought. This is the missing ingredient in Persinger's theory that UFO's are correlated with, and a result of, fault zones and earth stresses. While Persinger seems to feel this is a "normal physics" explanation, it indeed involves a paranormal explanation. The time-stressing ability of the true THETA scalar wave also explains the interaction of such earth stress lights with humans and human intent, as noted by other researchers. (E.g., the lights that repeatedly seemed to react to the observers, as detailed by Dr. Harley Rutledge in his epoch-making Project Identification, Prentice-Hall, 1981.) These ideas in condensed form comprise the concepts required to violate the speed of light and produce an ordinary electromagnetic field at a distance, using scalar interferometry, without losses -- as Tesla had done in his wireless transmission system which he had tested prior to 1900 and had perfected by the 1930's. Scalar interferometry can give stable regions of EM or "light energy" at a distance without losses, particularly as detailed in the beautiful Vestigia experiments, and it is within our grasp to utilize the new effects. Indeed, any stress crack in a material can result in the scalar potential interferometer effect. Exophoton and exoelectron emission -- poorly understood but already known in fatiguing of materials -- must be at least partly due to the scalar interferometer effect. Page 6 However, one additional caution should be advanced. Normal movement of electrons allows so much "sideplay" movement of the electrons -- and there is so much such sideplay electron motion in the surrounding vicinity -- that pair coupling is almost instantaneous for small waves. Thus orbital electrons in atoms seem to absorb and emit vector EM photons. Actually they also emit some percentage of scalar waves as well. Since a scalar wave is comprised exclusively of disturbance in the virtual state, it need not obey the conservation of energy law. Further, a scalar wave of itself does not "push electrons" or other charges; hence it is nearly indetectable by present detectors. Ionization detectors such as a Geiger counter tube, e.g., are exceptions if the scalar wave encountered is fairly strong. In that case sufficient triplex coupling with the ionized gas occurs to produce additional ionization or charge, breaching the tube's cutoff threshold and producing a cascade discharge of electrons and voltage which is detected. But weak scalar waves are presently indetectable by ordinary instruments. However, these small scalar waves are detectable by sensitive interferometry techniques -- e.g., such as an electron interferometer. Since the use of such instruments is quite rare, then indeed we have been living immersed in a sea of scalar waves without knowing it. Finally, the percentage of scalar waves produced by changes in charged mass pileups can be increased by utilizing charged mass streaming. Essentially the charged masses must be moved suddenly, as quickly as possible, at or near the complete breakdown of the medium. For this reason, Tesla utilized sparkgaps in his early transmission systems, but also found that he could induce ionized media to "breakdown" in such fashion by a slow growth process. One of his early patented atmospheric wireless transmission systems is¼based on this fact. However, it was necessary to use a very high voltage, insuring extreme stress on the medium and hence some spillover stress onto time itself. In other words, THETA-3 is always an approximation; at sufficiently high spatial stress, sufficient spillover THETA-4 exists to give Tesla scalar waves. For this reason, Tesla used very high voltages and extremely sharp discharges to give "streaming" of the charged masses and thus high percentages of THETA-4 waves. This suggests that the breakdown of dielectrics is a much richer phenomenon than is presently allowed for in the conventional theory. To summarize, electrostatic potential -- THETA field --is stress on the spacetime medium at a four-dimensional point. I.e., it is a sort of pressure on the medium, but pressure on all four dimensions, not just on the three s_atial dimensions. Page 7 Thus in the new standard theory, THETA-4 may have complex values. In addition, a PHI-wave is to be interpreted as a scalar longitudinal wave in complex spacetime -- directly in THETA-0, the normal average 4-space stress itself. And charge and charged mass must be recognized as two separate concepts. This is the gist of what I finally recognized about Nikola Tesla's work and fundamental di covery. This is exciting, for it means that Tesla stress waves can affect either space or time individually, or both space and time simultaneously, or even oscillate back and forth between primarily affecting time and primarily affecting space. Tesla's waves were actually these THETA-field scalar waves. As such, they were fundamentally different from ordinary electromagnetic waves, and had entirely different characteristics, just as Tesla often stated. E.g., a Tesla wave can either move spatially, with time flowing linearly; move temporally only (sitting at a point and waxing and waning in magnitude -- but changing the rate of flow of time itself in doing so, and affecting gravitational field, fundamental constants of nature, etc.), or move in a combination of the two modes. In the latter case, the Tesla wave moves in space with a very strange motion -- it oscillates between (1) spatially standing still and flexing time, and (2) moving smoothly in space while time flows smoothly and evenly. I.e., it stands at one point (or at one columnar region), flexing for a moment; then slowly picks up spatial velocity until it is moving smoothly through space; then slows down again to a "standing column," etc. This is Tesla's fabulous "standing columnar wave. Another wild characteristic of the Tesla wave is that it can affect the rate of flow of time itself; hence it can affect or change every other field -- including the gravitational field -- that exists in time flow. It can also affect all universal constants, the mass of an object, the inertia of a body, and the mind and thoughts as well! All of these exist in the flow of time, and they are affected if the time stream in which they exist is affected. This was the awful secret that Tesla partially discovered by 1900, and which he came more and more to fully realize as he pursued it nature and its ramifications into the 1920's and 1930's. Tesla also found he could set up standing THETA-field waves through the earth. He in fact intended to do so, for he had also discovered that all charges in the highly stressed earth regions in which such a standing wave existed produced THETA-fields which would feed (kindle) energy into the standing THETA-field wave by pair coupling. Page 8 I.e., normal vector field energy would "assemble" onto the scalar matrix wave by means of pair-coupling. Thus by transmitting a scalar wave into the earth, he could easily tap the fiery scalar fields produced in the molten core of the planet itself, turning them into ordinary electromagnetic energy. In such case, a single generator would enable anyone to put up a simple antenna and extract all the free energy they desired. When Tesla's alarmed financial backers discovered this was his real intent, they considered him a dangerous madman and found it necessary to ruthlessly stop his at all costs. And so his financial support was withdrawn, he was harassed in his more subtle patent efforts (and the patents themselves were adulterated), and his name gradually was removed from all the electrical textbooks. By 1914 Tesla, who had been the greatest inventor and scientist in the world, had become essentially a nonperson. A few other persons in the early 1900's also were aware that potential and voltage are different. And some of them even learned to utilize Tesla's PHI- field, even though they only vaguely understood they were utilizing a fundamentally different kind of electromagnetic wave. For example, James Harris Rogers patented an undersea and underground communications system which Tesla later confirmed utilized Tesla waves. The U.S. secretly used the Rogers communications system in World War I to communicate with U. S. submarines underwater, and to communicate through the earth to the American Expeditionary Force Headquarters in Europe. The Rogers system was declassified after the War -- and very shortly after that, it had mysteriously been scrubbed off the face of the earth. Again, potential stress waves -- Tesla waves -- were eliminated and "buried." Probably the most brilliant inventor and researcher into Tesla's electromagnetics was T. Henry Moray of Salt Lake City, Utah. Dr. Moray actually succeeded in tapping the limitless zero-point energy of vacuum (spacetime) itself. By 1939, Dr. Moray`s amplifier contained 29 stages and its output stage produced 50 kilowatts of power from vacuum. Interestingly, another 50 kilowatts could be tapped off any other stage in the device -- which consequently could have produced almost 1.5 megawatts of electrical power! Dr. Moray`s epoch-making work was suppressed also. His device -- which represented over 20 years of heartbreaking accumulation of 29 working tubes from thousands made -- was destroyed by a Soviet agent in 1939, but not before the agent had obtained the drawing for building the tubes and the device itself. Page 9 Today the Moray amplifier is a standard component of many of the Soviet secret superweapons and Tesla weapons. In the 20`s and 30`s, Tesla announced the final perfection of his wireless transmission of energy without losses -- even to interplanetary distances. In several articles (e.g., H. Winfield Secor, "Tesla Maps Our Electrical Future," Science and Invention, Vol. XVII, No. 12, pp. 1077, 1124-1126), Tesla even revealed he used longitudinal stress waves in his wireless power transmission. Quoting from the article, "Tesla upholds the startling theory formulated by him long ago, that the radio transmitters as now used, do not emit Hertz waves, as commonly believed, but waves of sound." "He says that a Hertz wave would only be possible in a solid ether, but he has demonstrated already in 1897 that the ether is a gas, which can only transmit waves of sound; that is such as are propagated by alternate compressions and rarefactions of the medium in which transverse waves are absolutely impossible." The wily Tesla did not reveal, of course, that such scalar waves nearly always immediately pair-coupled into vector waves when produced by normal means. Tesla himself was working with longitudinal scalar waves. In the 1930`s Tesla announced other bizarre and terrible weapons: a death ray, a weapon to destroy hundreds or even thousands of aircraft at hundreds of miles range, and his ultimate weapon to end all war -- the Tesla shield, which nothing could penetrate. However, by this time no one any longer paid any real attention to the forgotten great genius. Tesla died in 1943 without ever revealing the secret of these great weapons. Unfortunately, today in 1981 the Soviet Union has long since discovered and weaponized the Tesla scalar wave effects. Here we only have time to detail the most powerful of these frightening Tesla weapons -- which Brezhnev undoubtedly was referring to in 1975 when the Soviet side at the SALT talks suddenly suggested limiting the development of new weapons "more frightening than the mind of man had imagined." One of these weapons is the Tesla Howitzer recently completed at the Saryshagan missile range and presently considered to be either a high energy laser or a particle beam weapon. (See Aviation Week & Space Technology, July 28, 1980, p. 48 for an artist's conception.) The Saryshagan howitzer actually is a huge Tesla scalar interferometer with four modes of operation. One continuous mode is the Tesla shield, which places a thin, impenetrable hemispherical shell of energy over a large defended area. The 3-dimensional shell is created by intefering two Fourier- Page 18 expansion, 3-dimensional scalar hemispherical patterns in space so they pair-couple into a dome-like shell of intense, ordinary electromagnetic energy. The air molecules and atoms in the shell are totally ionized and thus highly excited, giving off intense, glowing light Anything physical which hits the shell receives an enormous discharge of electrical energy and is instantly vaporized -- it goes pfft! like a bug hitting one of the electrical bug killers now so much in vogue. If several of these hemispherical shells are concentrically stacked, even the gamma radiation and EMP from a high altitude nuclear explosion above the stack cannot penetrate all the shells due to repetitive absorption and re-radiation, and scattering in the layered plasmas. In the continuous shield mode, the Tesla interferometer is fed by a bank of Moray free energy generators, so that enormous energy is available in the shield. A diagram of the Saryshagan-type Tesla howitzer can be seen in drawing TESLA-1. TESLA-2 shows the Tesla shield produced by the howitzer. In the pulse mode, a single intense 3-dimensional scalar Theta-field pulse form is fired, using two truncated Fourier transforms, each involving several frequencies, to provide the proper 3-dimensional shape (TESLA-3). This is why two scalar antennas separated by a baseline are required. After a time delay calculated for the particular target, a second and faster pulse form of the same shape is fired from the interferometer antennas. The second pulse overtakes the first, catching it over the target zone and pair-coupling with it to instantly form a violent EMP of ordinary vector (Hertzian) electromagnetic energy. There is thus no vector transmission loss between the howitzer and the burst. Further, the coupling time is extremely short, and the energy will appear sharply in an "electromagnetic pulse (EMP)" striking similar to the 2-pulsed EMP of a nuclear weapon. This type is what actually caused the mysterious flashes off the southwest coast of Africa, picked up in 1979 and 1980 by Vela satellites. The second flash, e.g., was in the infrared only, with no visible spectrum. Nuclear flashes do not do that, and neither does super- lightening, meteorite strikes, meteors, etc. In addition, one of the scientists at the Arecibo Ionospheric Observatory observed a gravitational wave disturbance -- signature of the truncated Fourier pattern and the time- squeezing effect of the Tesla potential wave -- traveling toward the vicinity of the explosion. Page 11 The pulse mode may be fed from either Moray generators or -- if the Moray generators have suffered their anomalous "all fail" malfunction -- ordinary explosive generators. Thus the Tesla howitzer can always function in the pulse mode, but it will be limited in power if the Moray generators fail. In the continuous mode, two continuous scalar waves are emitted -- one faster than the other -- and they pair-couple into vector energy at the region where they approach an in-phase condition. In this mode, the energy in the distant "ball" or geometric region would appear continuously and be sustained -- and this is Tesla's secret of wireless transmission of energy at a distance without losses. It is also the secret of a "continuous fireball" weapon capable of destroying hundreds of aircraft or missiles at a distance. The volume of the Tesla fireball can be vastly expanded to yield a globe which will not vaporize physical vehicles but will deliver and EMP to them to dud their electronics. A test of this mode has already been witnessed, See Gwyne Roberts, "Witness to a Super Weapon?, the London Sunday Times, 17 August 1980 for several tests of this mode at Saryshagan, seen from Afghanistan by British TV cameraman and former War Correspondent Nick Downie. If the Moray generators fail anomalously, then a continuous mode limited in power and range could conceivably be sustained by powering the interferometer from more conventional power sources such as advanced magneto-hydrodynamic generators. Typical strategic ABM uses of Tesla weapons are shown in Tesla-4. In addition, of course, smaller Tesla howitzer systems for anti- tactical ballistic missile defense of tactical troops and installations could be constituted of more conventional field missile systems using paired or triplet radars, of conventional external appearance, in a scalar interferometer mode. With Moray generators as power sources and multiply deployed reentry vehicles with scalar antennas and transmitters, ICBM reentry systems now can become long range "blasters" of the target areas, from thousands of kilometers distance (TESLA-5). Literally, "Star Wars" is liberated by the Tesla technology. And in air attack, jammers and ECM aircraft now become "Tesla blasters." With the Tesla technology, emitters become primary fighting components of stunning power. The potential peaceful implications of Tesla waves are also enormous. By utilizing the "time squeeze" effect, one can get antigravity, materialization and dematerialization, transmutation, and mind boggling medical benefits. One can also get subluminal and superluminal communication, see through the earth and through the ocean, etc. The new view of Theta-field also provides a unified field theory, higher orders of Page 12 reality, and a new super-relativity, but detailing these possibilities must wait for another book. With two cerebral brain halves, the human being also has a Tesla scalar interferometer between his ears. And since the brain and nervous system processes avalanche discharges, it can produce (and detect) scalar Tesla waves to at least a limited degree. Thus a human can sometimes produce anomalous spatio-temporal effects at a distance and through time. This provides an exact mechanism for psychokinesis, levitation, psychic healing, telepathy, precognition, postcognition, remote viewing, etc. It also provides a reason why an individual can detect a "stick" on a radionics or Hieronymus machine (which processes scalar waves), when ordinary detectors detect nothing. Unfortunately there is not room to develop the implications of this human Tesla interferometry in detail, for that must wait for yet another book, presently in its initial stages, that Hal Crawford and I are writing. At the July 1981 U.S. Psychotronics Association's Annual Conference in Dayton, Ohio, I presented the first rough paper on the Tesla secret and scalar interferometry. A videotape of the presentation was made and will shortly be available. I am also scheduled to make a special presentation at the Alternate Energy Conference in Toronto, Canada in latter October, 1981. A professional, videotaped two-hour presentation on this subject is also being prepared. Wide distribution of the material through the international underground physics and technology network has already been made. This time, God willing, Tesla's secret will not be suppresses for another 80 years! And perhaps it is not yet too late. The material has cost me (now) some 16 years of agonizing labor and nearly $100,000 of my own personal funds. No orthodox university, scientific group, foundation, or governmental agency would support such an effort, either financially or otherwise. Indeed, most ordinary journals will not even accept material on such matters. Nonetheless, the area is of overwhelming importance -- and I truly believe Tesla's lost secret will shortly affect the lives of every human being on earth. Perhaps with the free and open release of Tesla`s secret, the scientific and governmental bureaucracies will be shocked awake from their slumber, and we can develop defense before Armageddon occurs. Perhaps there is hope after all -- for even Brezhnev, in his strange July, 1975 proposal to the SALT talks, seemed to reveal a perception that a turning point in wear and weaponry may have been reached, and that human imagination is incapable of dealing with the ability to totally engineer reality itself. Page 13 Having tested the weapons, the Soviets must be aware that the ill- provoked oscillation of time flow affects the minds and thoughts -- and the very life streams and even the collective species unconsciousness -- of all life forms on earth. They must know that these weapons are two-edged swords, and that the backlash from their use can be far more terrible to the user than was the original effect to his victim. If we can avoid the Apocalypse, the fantastic secret of Nikola Tesla can be employed to cure and elevate man, not kill him. Tesla's discovery can eventually remove every conceivable external human limitation. If we humans ourselves can elevate our consciousness to properly utilize the Tesla electromagnetics, then Nikola Tesla -- who gave us the electrical twentieth century in the first place -- may yet give us a fantastic new future more shining and glorious than all the great scientists and sages have imagined. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Part II Reference Articles for Solutions to Tesla's Secrets -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Electrical Engineer - London Dec. 24, 1909, p. 893 NIKOLA TESLA`S NEW WIRELESS Mr. Nikola Tesla has announced that as the result of experiments conducted at Shoreham, Long Island, he has perfected a new system of wireless telegraphy and telephony in which the principles of transmission are the direct opposite of Hertzian wave transmission. In the latter, he says, the transmission is effected by rays akin to light, which pass through the air and cannot be transmitted through the ground, while in the former the Hertz waves are practically suppressed and the entire energy of the current is transmitted through the ground exactly as though a big wire. Mr. Tesla adds that in his experiments in Colorado it was shown that a very powerful current developed by the transmitter traversed the entire globe and returned to its origin in an interval of 84 one-thousandths of a second, this journey of 24,000 miles being effected almost without loss of energy. -------------------------------------------------------------------- NEW YORK TIMES Dec. 8, 1915, p. 8, col. 3 TESLA'S NEW DEVICE LIKE BOLTS OF THOR He Seeks to Patent Wireless Engine for Destroying Navies by Pulling a Lever. To Shatter Armies Also. "Impractical," He says of Westerner's Plan to Circle Country with Electric Fire. Page 14 Nikola Tesla, the inventor, winner of the 1915 Nobel Physics Prize, has filed patent applications on the essential parts of a machine the possibilities of which test a layman's imagination and promise a parallel of Thor's shouting thunderbolts from the sky to punish those who angered the gods. Dr. Tesla insists there is nothing sensational about it, that it is but the fruition of many years of work and study. He is not yet ready to give the details of the engine which he says will render fruitless any military expedition against a country which possesses it. Suffice to say that the destructive invention will go through space with a speed of 300 miles a second, and manless airship without propelling engine or wings, sent by electricity to any desired point on the globe on its errand of destruction, if destruction its manipulator wishes to effect. Ten miles or a thousand miles, it will be all the same to the machine, the inventor says. Straight to the point, on land or on sea, it will be able to go with precision, delivering a blow that will paralyze of kill, as is desired. A man in a tower on Long Island could shield New York against ships or army by working a lever, if the inventor's anticipations become realizations. "It is not the time," said Dr. Tesla yesterday, "to go into the details of this thing. It is founded on a principle that means great things in peace, it can be used for great things in war. But I repeat, this is no time to talk of such things. "It is perfectly practicable to transmit electrical energy without wires and produce destructive effects at a distance. I have already constructed a wireless transmitter which makes this possible, and have described it in my technical publications, among which I may refer to my patent 1,119,732 recently granted. With transmitters of this kind we are enabled to project electrical energy in any amount to any distance and apply it for innumerable purposes, both in peace and war. Through the universal adoption of this system, ideal conditions for the maintenance of law and order will be realized, for then the energy necessary to the enforcement of right and justice will be normally productive, yet potential, and in any moment available, for attack and defense. The power transmitted need not be necessarily destructive, for, if existence is made to depend upon it, its withdrawal or supply will bring about the same results as those now accomplished by force of arms. Dr. Tesla then said that it would be possible with his wireless mechanism to direct an ordinary aeroplane, manless, to any point over a ship or an army, and to discharge explosives of great strength from the base of operations. Asked to express an opinion upon the announcement last Sunday of Page 15 Charles H. Harris, and electrical engineer of Los Angeles, that he would be able to surround this country with an electrical wall of fire in time of war, Dr. Tesla gave it as his opinion that Mr. Harris was not practical. "It is hard to stamp as impossible such results as those described in the press dispatches to which you refer. Granted, however, that the project is feasible, it would take more than all the motive power obtainable in the United States to throw a wall of fire around the country. In fact, even the passage of small currents at considerable distances through air consumes a great deal of energy on account of the immense pressure required. So, for instance, in lightening discharges, energy may be delivered at the rated of billions of horsepower, though the currents are of smaller volume than those developed by electrical generators in our power houses." END OF REPORT -------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have comments or other information relating to such topics as this paper covers, please upload to KeelyNet or send to the Vangard Sciences address as listed on the first page. Thank you for your consideration, interest and support. Jerry W. Decker.........Ron Barker...........Chuck Henderson Vangard Sciences/KeelyNet -------------------------------------------------------------------- If we can be of service, you may contact Jerry at (214) 324-8741 or Ron at (214) 242-9346 --------------------------------------------------------------------

At 12:27 EST the United States in conjunction with the United Kingdom and supported by various other countries begain attacking, by air, Afghanistan and the Taliban.

The attacks have been isolated to only Afghanistan, we'll see if they spread to other countries soon. I would believe that the inital war on terror will be exclusivley against the Taliban and bin Laden, then will spread to other countries.

I'll keep everyone updated, if you get information please report it here or somewhere else on sciforums.com.

Thanks.

I am getting a scalar headache just reading it.....:D

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24831

Originally posted by tablariddim
Instead of politicians, why can't we have a council of international intellectuals/writers/journalists etc. to put forward THEIR views of what should be done every time an international outrage is enacted.

Well it seems that at least American intelligence read my post and realised I was right to reccomend writers. Ok, it's not exactly what I had in mind, but it's a start!:D

From the BBC website:
American intelligence specialists are reported to have "secretly" sought advice on handling terrorist attacks from Hollywood film-makers.
According to the trade paper Variety, a discussion group between movie and military representatives was held at the University of Southern California last week.

The group is said to have been set up by the US Army to discuss future terrorist activity in the wake of the attacks of 11 September.

Among those reported to have been involved were Die Hard screenwriter Steven E De Souza and Joseph Zito, director of Delta Force One and Missing in Action.

Other, more conventional, feature makers were also said to have been present, including Randal Kleiser, who made Grease.

Such a scenario - where the army turns to the creators of film fantasy for advice about real-life disaster - would seem an unusual, not to say unlikely, reversal of roles.

Variety dismissed the notion that such a scenario - where the army turns to the creators of film fantasy for advice about real-life disaster - was unusual, not to say unlikely, reversal of roles.

The paper argues that there is much the masters of screen suspense can offer the US Army in the way of tactical advice.

In particular, says Variety, the entertainment industry can offer expertise in understanding plot and character, as well as advice on scenario training.

The US Army is also behind the university's Institute for Creative Technologies (ICT).

The ICT calls upon the resources and talents of the entertainment industry and computer scientists to help with virtual reality scenario simulation.

Variety reported that the ICT's creative director James Korris confirmed that the meetings between the film-makers and the US Army were taking place.

However, the paper added that Mr Korris had refused to give details as to what specific recommendations had been made to the US government.

As thecurly1 pointed out the U.S. and Great Britain have attacked specific places in Afghanistan. George W. claims that around 40 other nations are helping us in this current endeavor. The target is the Taliban...for now.

What next?

And what's ol' Saddam up to these days?

Saddum is probably hunting for a hole with a lid. A sturdy one.

If they are dug in

We can find the air vents and "smoke" them out.

I read that Afghanistan has earthquakes already? Could be dangerous to create one of our own, not knowing what we would create. It sounds like something that we could control to a certain extent but then, mother nature takes over and shit could hit the fan.

Do any of you think we have any real "no strings attached" friends in this region?

Patman

Do any of you think we have any real "no strings attached" friends in this region?

Nope, don't exist. Listen to the news. If it can be believed then Dubba is buying cooperation with the various nations surrounding Afganistan. With aid, food, promises of help in one form or another. Pakistan stands to gain the elimination of a thorn in their side that prevents them from advancing into western modes in full fledged, open type, acceptance so that they can deal with the west on equal footing as far as culture goes. The Taliban would not approve of such behaviour and would setup retaliations should Pakistan try to move it that direction. Notice that Dubba says that he would not attempt to govern Afganistan but that what ever government comes to power there that his only requirement is that it be friendly to Pakistan.

"Political" friends with no strings attached? Not likely. We're best buds with Great Britain, but we're constantly scratching each other's backs, too. We like to exchange gifts of knowledge of technology with them, for example.

The type of 'strings' will be determined by what each side values and by the political, military, and financial objectives of any "friend" we link arms with.

Significantly crippling or destroying the intricate networks created by those who would terrorize the "free" world will cost us all. Probably a good time to review what we think of as a sacrifice.

I was watching BBC last night. The economy is bad there. May be they want to get a boost from War Economy just like what we are doing - deficit spending and spending.....

hey friends !!

I am ( van) DAMN sure that this is done by SADDAM HUSAIN of IRAQ.

LADEN simply can't do this. Ask any of the muslim from asia!!!:D

dil chahta hai>>

Don't take me wrong. This is said by my muslim friend. Name: Ariz Jamil from Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh, India.



----------------------------------
News: 53,000 families (not indivisuals) killed by terrorists in Jammu & Kashmeer (India) in last ten years and pakistaani Head Musharraf call them as " freedom Fighters ".

Beatuway kiran, I concurr
why do I have this gut feeling we shall eventualy get Bin Laden, yet come up empty handed in our search for SADDAM?
perhaps Bin Ladden is an unwitting puppet?

Cool. Someone new from a strange and faraway land. Hello.

As far as my personal feelings about Bin Ladden & Saddamy's oil connected empire, tell them to blow it out their...
http://www.emailfiles.com/what_a_fart.jpg
!!!

hello
bousar, strange land??

France has stated that it is ready to take military action in the region of Afghanistan, but only when and where it thinks appropriate.

Proper?

Improper?

~~~~~

Germany, too, has become actively supportive of America's stance and actions.

Is Germany ready to do some housecleaning? To make the atmosphere in that country less...hospitable to terrorists and their supporters?

~~~~~

The Northern Alliance appears to be holding their own (with support from various and sundry). Will they remain lodged in the northeast corner of the region, or will they begin to move south?

Whatcha think?

There is a lot more that is going on behind the scene that we do not know about. Even the CNN and American media put out sanitized and same story, while you can pick up additional stuff from BBC and other sources.

We ran out of targets to bomb in 2 days (alright 2.5 days...) Now, what the 3 aircraft carriers are going to do? (One aircraft carrier is equal to a nice size country's total military capability)

Better make the most of our help,as we are fast becoming a Muslim country.I have seen about half a dozen Muslim representative's on the TV & only one did not go Ape shi%t about the war.
They said 80% of Birmingham is Muslim,so won't be to long before we are attacking the USA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1589000/1589689.stm

Unless there is a religious integration like the black & white integration of the 60s, we are heading for a disaster.

They attacked the US, and then they said that they would attack some more (which we all know they did) then I think the question should be, how will they attack? Will they use chemicals, bio-terrorism, more hijackings, bombings, shootings, or poisoning the water? There are so many ways that they could attack and I think that bombing them was the right thing to do. It made me and alot of other people feel safer. And thats the whole point of this war to stomp out terrorism and make people feel safe again. Not to rise the economy; shame on you people for thinking that. Ive heard some stuff before but that is the most pile of bull#### ive ever heard. Our economy was already in a slump before 911 and now its headed down even further but is on its way back up. Not because of defense spending, or government revival. But because people are going out and buying things that they need, ammo, handguns, and gasmasks thats what we need. We dont need to buy computers or to buy new books we need to buy that gun so that we feel safer. So let people spend there money on these things, if they end up needing to be used then the ones without them will be dead anyways. And anyone who thinks that these things are needed are probably just worried that something is going to happen over here that might start the last war. After all it was nostroudomus (did i say that right?) who predicted a final battle between muslims and christians and I do believe a war like that will happen one day, because the tension is building people and whether we like to admit it or not, nothing is forever not even the United States.
This is a war of revenge.

<Img Src=http://www.bradandsherry.com/clock.gif>
CounslerCoffee,
Right person, Wrong "Time"
Rumours are so often prevelant among the internet, may I suggest we consult the experts before continuing misinformation?

Try this one...
http://www.nostradamus-repository.org/cityofgod.html
(Some titles to get you started with Nostradamus research)

*Nostradamus: Complete Prophecies
by John Hogue

*The Final Prophecies of Nostradamus
by Erika Cheetham

*Nostradamus, 1999:Who Will Survive?
by Stefan Paulus, Edgar Rojas

*Nostradamus Encyclopedia
by Peter Lemesurier

Update 18, 2001

A more in depth analysis of Nostradamus predicting the attack on NYC has been posted on NYC FAQ page.

Update Sept 13, 2001

It is hard to understand why some people are using such a tragic event to spread more fear using the name of Nostradamus but unfortunately that is the case.

By the way, Nostradamus died in 1566 so anything with "Nostradamus 1654" should give you a clue.

So, for your information, the following variations are also hoaxes attributed to Nostradamus:

The one starting with "New century and 9 months",

The one starting with "9 months and eleven days" or "On eleventh day of 9th month",

The one which mentions "two steel birds",

The one which mixes 2 completely unrelated quatrains of Nostradamus "From the sky will come a great King of Terror...The sky will burn at forty-five degrees" in order to fit the event. Also, don't forget that NY is not at 45 degrees but a little south of 41 degrees.

More will be added as encountered...

As for "City of God", see below:

The following quatrain has been circulating the Internet after the WTC bombings.

In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
two brothers torn apart by chaos,
while the fortress endures, the great leader will sucumb.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning.

It is "NOT" by: Nostradamus. This is a HOAX. (The link to a possible source of this hoax has been removed as that page is no longer accessible.)

How did you get all that out of one statement about Nostradomus? I knew about the hoaxs and have recieved email about them before, and i always respond; hey thats not right. All i said was "After all it was nostroudomus (did i say that right?) who predicted a final battle between muslims and christians" i never mentioned the NYC attack, or any quatrains. Besides if iwas really going to quote something that i truly believed in it would of been the bible. Of course goodness knows if I put that up then you would start talking about Bill Clinton or something(sarcasim). I was just wondering how did you get all that from one statement about Nostraudomus thats all. But oh what the heck heres the bible quotes anyways.

Revelations 18:18
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, what city is like unto this great city!
Revelations 18:19
And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas alas that great city wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour she is made desolute.

Well since your able to get so much out of one quote that was sarcastic let's see how much you can get out of this.

Originally posted by kmguru
Unless there is a religious integration like the black & white integration of the 60s, we are heading for a disaster.

~~~~

How so, kmguru? Care to elaborate on that one a bit?


thx,

Counterbalance

take your choice!
ADDRESS THE REAL ISSUES. WHY DO YOU THINK AMERICA IS HATED SO MUCH BY SO MUCH OF THE WORLD? DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO BE ANGRY?

they have the right to "be angry." There's a line somewhere between that and the right to fly airliners into skyscrapers. Now, the U.S. has the right to be angry too. The U.S. is also the lone military and economic global superpower, and will use its resources to protect its interests. Regardless of whether or not people have the right to be angry -- you don't see the U.S. mass-murdering peaceful demonstrations, for instance, do you -- no one is going to idly stand by while the most vital American cities are attacked.

The scrawny geek might have a right to be angry with a bully who steals his lunch money, but if he's going to run up to the bully and sock him in the face, it's a safe bet that the latter will just pick him up and snap his fucking neck. Since the scrawny geek is not a moron, he knows this and would not try it unless he was reasonably sure that he could win. Maybe he has a Glock in his back pocket.

You might not like it, but might does make right. Might gives you the physical ability to defeat those who disagree with you. A direct attack on the Pentagon, by foreign agents, can not be construed as anything less than a declaration of war. This is the intention; the terrorists want to tangle ass with America. They seek to confuse by hiding behind civilians of their own countries. This will not work.

All terrorism is despicable. I have sympathy for the victims of Israeli terror in Palestine, of Saddam's terror in Iraq, and American terror against its own citizens in the War on Drugs. Our system is not perfect, but god damn it, it's the best one the world has come up with so far. I have nothing for those who think they will get the changes they want by murdering us en masse. You know, if they tried something effective like killing a Feinstein or a Bush, or any of those Nazi Republicrats who have a stranglehold on the country, I'd even be grateful. By indiscriminately attacking civilians, including those of us who spend our time educating and informing ourselves, trying to vote Republicrats out of office, and effect real change in the system through a civilized manner, they have declared war on our civilization and way of life itself, and have turned any existing support for their cause into hatred for them and their people. Fuck them all. I support the harshest possible actions against these animals. Napalm the shit out of the next "Kill All Americans" rally that attacks their own police and burns down buildings, and kill every last motherfucking one there. Wipe them up off the face of the earth.

Everyone has the right to be angry, but when you call for violence, you better be prepared to accept violence in return. When you effect war against a superpower, prepare for war with a superpower. It's that simple. These scumbags need to be wiped off the face of the earth, so that the people they falsely claim to represent can be rid of this tainting image.

I couldn't agree more voguestate and I couldn't of said it better.

A person I know does not support this war and I don't think she fully understands it. She said that by attacking them we are just "asking for more attacks on the USA" when shes got it completely wrong. If we werent bombing them and trying to kill them then they would just end up attacking us again and again and again.
They have bombed our embassy's before and we fall back, they bomb humanitarian aid and we fall back, they bomb other nations and we fall back, THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HERE!

Silly terrorist think that by bombing us that they can break apart the United States, they didn't realize that it makes us stronger.

****** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"UNITED WE STAND" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*****

Welcome to Sciforums, VogueState. The problem is that these low lifes are vermin to their own people. They hide amongst those people like fleas hide in the fur of a dog. When you bomb, the bombs go off where they will. Some innocents will be hurt no matter how it is done. Saddam is one who loves to play this to the hilt. He places his AA guns next to school and hospitals. When they are damaged by the explosive that it took to get rid of the weapon, he has CNN out there moments afterwards to show what it did to the poor populace. Notice that you never see the target we were after? Always remember that these news broadcasts are censored. I would censor CNN broadcasts the same way from these type of uses for the news. Hunting Ben Ladin down will be a trying experience. The only thing is I think they have miscalculated this time. Now he has the hounds of hell on his butt and and it will not be that long before he feels the heat. The rest of this scourge of humanity is but waiting their turn for the hounds.

I agree that you don't go flying jets into buildings unless you're seeking warfare, but ...
Everyone has the right to be angry, but when you call for violence, you better be prepared to accept violence in return. What about when you fund, train, and supply violence? After all, we're chasing after the people who harbor terrorists, as well, for the crime of supporting their work. Well? What of it? Who here will claim that Americans have not funded, supplied, or trained rogue groups in the Muslim world? Muslim blood has spilled by American funds, equipment, and knowledge; Muslim blood has been spilled by American will.

Again, because at Sciforums, such points cannot be repeated enough, this isn't quite cause to go flying jets into buildings, but we, the People of the United States of America, have funded, equipped, and trained murderers of Muslims. The issue isn't that we're funding, equipping, and training other Muslims, but that we're interfering in their affairs to begin with. Sure, bin Laden benefitted from American support against the Russians in Afghanistan; sure, Saddam Hussein benefitted from American support against Iran; and sure, Manuel Noriega was Poppy Bush's stooge, but we have to realize that Americans have funded, equipped, and trained the enemies we now face.

When you support violence, can you expect violence? Or are we innocent because it wasn't Americans doing the actual killing?

It sucks, but the irony of the whole thing has us over a moral barrel. If we kill civilians, we justify what has been done to us. Our objections to their supporters are objections legitimately aimed at Americans, too.
You know, if they tried something effective like killing a Feinstein or a Bush, or any of those Nazi Republicrats who have a stranglehold on the country, I'd even be grateful. By indiscriminately attacking civilians, including those of us who spend our time educating and informing ourselves, trying to vote Republicrats out of office, and effect real change in the system through a civilized manner, they have declared war on our civilization and way of life itself, and have turned any existing support for their cause into hatred for them and their people. Two things: even I, in my moments of morbid levity, can find reasons to cheer people who might strike against America; Nazi Republicrats? Go for it. (I'm recalling Mars Attacks, "They blew up Congress!") So imagine, just imagine for a moment, that what upsets you is the damage our foreign policy has done. Well, suddenly, you're imagining the picture of someone who's "against us" in this conflict.

The second point pertains to innocent people. I figure it's worth pointing out that WTC was a commercial/financial/legal center. There's an American joke that goes, "What do you call 1000 lawyers on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean?" A good start, is the answer.

Why is everyone so upset? I'm angry for the janitors, for the parking attendants, and obviously for the firefighters and police officers who died in the line of duty. And, yes, I'm upset about the whole thing, but for effect of the point, the "innocent" people were of a "class" that many Americans frequently joke about eliminating.

It looks like our sense of humor will be a long-term casualty. Suddenly, drowning the bankers and lawyers isn't quite so funny, is it?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Bunkers don't scare me, here's how you can get people out:

1) Use a penetrator gravity bomb. They can punch through something like 20 feet of concrete and 150-200 feet of solid Earth. Conventional explosive or a small yield nuclear device.

2) If its a good bunker, there are filters to get rid of fallout, bio and chemical agents. Instead we just destroy all the lines to the outside.

3) Barracade the bunker, or just keep droping bombs at the entrance to keep them on their toes. You can always starve them to death.

4) If the bunker isn't that well dug in explode an EMP weapon above it and knock out the power, than use other means to destroy it.

Welcome to Sciforums, VogueStateThanks.
The problem is that these low lifes are vermin to their own people. They hide amongst those people like fleas hide in the fur of a dog. When you bomb, the bombs go off where they will. Some innocents will be hurt no matter how it is done.This is the sad truth of any war. Leaders are rarely the ones to suffer, instead it is usually the civilian populace who pays the price. It doesn't help the poor Afghans that bin Laden and his cohorts are using them as human shields. There is little in the way of alternative at this point, however. Western leaders might be to blame for allowing the situation to escalate to its present situation, but that is hindsight now. The mistakes of the past are here to stay, and it is Al Qaeda that is exploiting them to deliver mass-murder.

This is a war and what any good war (and there is no good war) needs is psycology. I say we stop bombing them for a few days (or hours) and once they all go outside of the bunkers to get food/supplys/ammo we start bombing the hell out of them completely out of no where, it could work. Oh yeah and one of our airmen died today but osama didn't get to kill him, he died on his ship by accident apparently, at least thats what i heard.

Here in Louisville, KY we had a bit of a scare, a pilot evacuated his plane because he thought he smelled smoke and everyone got off boared, I thought that when the news interrupted Ophra (i was watching her special on Osama did yall see it?) that it was the end of the world or that something bad happend in my home town. We need to get off of these kinds of things, every little thing is scarying the crap out of me everytime theres a news update. The whole antrhax thing is happening here to, i went to a pawn shop and people were buying guns and gas masks, so of course I bought what i wanted, a brand new camera, and a gasmask. j/k.

Calm down Coffee, nothing will happen for a while. Based on the past deeds of terrorists everywhere, they love the plane. That is their big bomb. The next tool is small cars with explosives. As long as we watch the plane, we are OK. It is difficult to get to the car bomb scenario because ever since the first attack at WTC, the access to those chemicals has been restricted. Using fertilizers can be done, but it is too bulky and these days the Ryder type trucks are watched.

Bio-agent will be extremely difficult, otherwise they would have employed at Israel and other places by now.

On the offensive side, we might use a tactical nuke just to test out if it really works going into the mountain. So go back to what you are doing and spend money. We will do more damage to ourselves if we get scared and stay at home.

It is a sad fact that in politics, nothing is as it seems, let us revisit the playground from a future perspective and see what may have really happened..

So imagine this bully who’s always pushing this geek around but wants to actually kill the geek so that he can get access to all his geeky stuff and also make his gang members and peers even more scared of him. The thing is he can’t do it outright without a reason; otherwise he’ll lose respect from his peers (the other bullies), create jealousy and gain contempt. So he tells one of his gang to go and befriend the geek and to tell him that the time has come to fight back really hard and how to do it and not to worry, because the bully and his gang are really cowards and will run away and the geek will then be safe forever more.
So the geek arrives throwing stones at the bully and his gang, breaking windows, scratching their cars and giving the bully a black eye!
“Well that does it!” says the bully with a nod and a wink, so he rounds up all the other bullies and says to them, “We can’t have geeks being so cheeky, the time has come to get rid of them all—let’s all go and kill the bastards!” And all the time he’s thinking, “Wow! All the geeky stuff’s gonna be mine, mine, MINE!!!” (Frenzied laughter awash with reverb)
Unfortunately, what the bully doesn’t seem to fully realize (but he does really), is that the geeks have a rather extended family of geekos and geekies and geekers and gagageeks—I mean it never ends—who all have a grievance against the bully, because they’ve all been pushed around by him at some point and they start shouting retaliatory threats. The other bullies take this into account and have a word with the main bully, but he says to them, “My gang’s so tough, we don’t actually need your help, but if you’re not with us, it means you’re against us and not only will we not share our geeky loot with you when we get it, but we’re gonna start to push you around as well! So choose, which side you want to be on.” This frightens all the other bullies and all the wannabebullies, so they tool themselves up and go after the geek.
The geek, being a wily old sod is pretty hard to catch, especially as he’s got friends from the main bully’s gang helping him out.
The bullies start to beat up all the geeks family and friends and threaten to go after the gagageeks and geekers next, even if they manage to catch the main geek. Well this makes the gagageeks and geekers really mad, so they start throwing stones at the bullies and their gangs. The main bully makes sure that they know where to throw their stones to suit his strategy. Eventually all the gang members become really frightened of all these stones flying at them, so the bully and the other bullies say to them that it’s time for everyone to start wearing electronic ID’s on their heads to protect them from the stones and separate them from the geeks, gickos, geekers and gagageeks. Most of the gang members agree that this is a good idea and so everybody is fitted with the protective tags, whether they want them or not. Now, all the bullies have absolute power over their gang members, knowing exactly who they are, where they’ve been and what they’ve done.
Meanwhile, they’ve been decimating the geeks, stealing their geeky stuff and taking control of their houses with the help of the wannabebullies. When the bully finally achieves what he always wanted, he tells his man on the inside to find the main geek and wring his neck!

The moral of this story? There are no morals when it comes to world domination.

One thing you may have overlooked,
what the bullies were not prepared for was the element of suprise, a human trait that they did'nt expect, the tanacity of unpredictability! (Yeah That's Right!"

while the bullies were overly confident filled with overabundant testosterone clouding their judgement by arrogant ignorance, the geekazoids were using their brains to develop technology to alter their phisiology in such a way (without the use of "stupid" steroids.) they were to make their bodies with the strength of a hundered men in just a week or two, and kick some stupid steroid driven self servitudal arrogant ignorant over abundanttly salvatating their teststerone steroidal stupidess clouded judgement to their own demise!
<Img Src=http://www.bestanimations.com/Cartoons/Simpsons/Itchy-01.gif>
<Img Src=http://www.bestanimations.com/Cartoons/Simpsons/Homer/Homer-07.gif>
<Img Src=http://www.members.tripod.com/uforeview/eylook.gif>

<Img Src=http://www.bestanimations.com/Cartoons/Cloud-01.gif>

********GAME OVER!**************

And now for something a lttle more intelligent... (Wewh, Uff Dah!)

******"A Note On "Nostradamus"
<Img Src=http://www.astrologer.ru:8003/Nostradamiana/Gallery/nostradamus4.jpg>

may I suggest we consult the experts before continuing misinformation?

Try this one...
http://www.nostradamus-repository.org/cityofgod.html
(Some titles to get you started with Nostradamus research)

*Nostradamus: Complete Prophecies
by John Hogue

*The Final Prophecies of Nostradamus
by Erika Cheetham

*Nostradamus, 1999:Who Will Survive?
by Stefan Paulus, Edgar Rojas

*Nostradamus Encyclopedia
by Peter Lemesurier

Update 18, 2001

A more in depth analysis of Nostradamus predicting the attack on NYC has been posted on NYC FAQ page.

Update Sept 13, 2001

It is hard to understand why some people are using such a tragic event to spread more fear using the name of Nostradamus but unfortunately that is the case.

By the way, Nostradamus died in 1566 so anything with "Nostradamus 1654" should give you a clue.

So, for your information, the following variations are also hoaxes attributed to Nostradamus:

The one starting with "New century and 9 months",

The one starting with "9 months and eleven days" or "On eleventh day of 9th month",

The one which mentions "two steel birds",

The one which mixes 2 completely unrelated quatrains of Nostradamus "From the sky will come a great King of Terror...The sky will burn at forty-five degrees" in order to fit the event. Also, don't forget that NY is not at 45 degrees but a little south of 41 degrees.

More will be added as encountered...

As for "City of God", see below:

The following quatrain has been circulating the Internet after the WTC bombings.

In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
two brothers torn apart by chaos,
while the fortress endures, the great leader will sucumb.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning.

It is "NOT" by: Nostradamus. This is a HOAX. (The link to a possible source of this hoax has been removed as that page is no longer accessible.)

World domination
Sounds good!

But will settle for some kind a peace in this region of the world.

Weather we supplied them with arms, training, etc.... We are far from innocent in this I understand but someone somewhere thought it was the right thing to do. Times change, goals change. WE messed up before and WE will do it in the future. I truly believe we are doing the right thing and should stick to our guns. With all the anti-U.S. protests going on in just about every surrounding country this could get very ugly. But I also feel that if you can't control your own people you don't really have control of your country. So maybe we should expand this war into other countries now. If they want a fight lets give it to them.

Everyone buying guns? Can't shoot anthrax. There will be no ground war here! The only thing I see happening is lynching people of Arabic descent. Which to say the least is ridiculous!

Maybe it is time to change the world and everything about it my money's on us and the UK

Hey time, didn't you say all that nostraudomus stuff before? About the hoax and all? What was the point in saying it all again? That doesnt make any sense! No one even mention him?!?!? WTF?

<Img Src=http://www.clydelewis.com/images/bannerlogo.jpg>
Novus Odor Seclorum
Act III New War/ Same War
Ground Zero Raido & News network
http://www.clydelewis.com
<Img Src=http://www.clydelewis.com/images/guests/len.jpg>
It's time to start talking reality about America's new war. We have been lolled into the same unanimous guilt trip for too long. We are now being told by our leaders and the media that we do not deserve information about what is going on and all we get from our news organizations is repetitious fear and hysteria programming that has prompted some of us to buy gas masks, and plea with our doctors for prescriptions for Ciprio.

It's time to pay attention and not fear anymore.

We have been playing with niceties out of fear and reprisal. We have been told that it is wrong to question the decisions of our leaders because of peer pressure and now the gloves come off as we are about to combat the negative thought forms and inform you the listener about what may really be going on behind the scenes.

Ground Zero now has a huge gun in our arsenal and he is about to speak. This week Ground Zero welcomes Dr. Len Horowitz.

Len Horowitz is one of health care's most captivating motivational speakers. Len received his doctorate from Tufts University in 1977, and then was awarded a fellowship in behavioral research at the University of Rochester. Dr. Horowitz later earned his master's degree, one in public health from Harvard University, and the other in health education from Beacon College.

Dr. Horowitz will explain to Ground Zero listeners that they should avoid "white collar terrorists" that peddle fear in order to get your money and that they should educate themselves on just who might be behind this "new war."

Dr. Horowitz has always been sought after for his expertise on Biowarfare and Bio war effects on humans by ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, Dr. Horowitz is most famous for his stirring bestseller, "Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola Nature, Accident or Intentional?" In 1999, Dr. Horowitz and Dr. Joseph Puleo completed "Healing Codes for the Biological Apocalypse" a book that reveals Bible codes, hidden for 3,000 years, that have major implications for personal and world healing. Dr. Horowitz's most recent work in Healing Celebrations provides the wherewithal to produce miraculous recoveries through ancient scriptures, natural medicine, and modern science In 1999, Dr. Horowitz received the coveted "Author of the Year Award" from the World Natural Health Organization.
-------------------------------------------
Call Ground Zero at our new number 1-800-727-5955 / 503-250-1080 (local) and ask any question for our guests.

I think.

With winter quickly aproaching in Afghanistan fighting will become slower, and probably harder. The US and N. Alliance will have to capture Kabul, the capital within a week, two at the most. Airstrikes against the Taliban will allow the N.A. to go a bit further south and get the capital. When the winter sets in the helicopter attacks, which will be starting soon will expand. The copters mainly US, and possibly a few UK will be deployed from Pakistan and aircraft carriers, as well as hopping from various countries in Central Asia. The copters will strike convoys, bunkers, and other holdouts for the Taliban.

Pashtuin tribes in the south, aided by BlackOps will capture Kandahar. From there, airfields near the Iranian border will be used as quick staging areas into central Afghanistan. When the winter slow down begins, the War Hawks may get their chance to strike wide.

I honestly believe that Iraq will be next, eventhough the administration denies it. Though Hussein is a secular dictator, and Osama religious, they both have huge hatred for the United States and mideast regimes. My enemies, enemie is my friend, type of thing. I believe there are ties, and we should eliminate Hussein before he gets a nuke. If he winds up with a H-bomb then we're in big trouble, when he rattles a nuclear saber at Israel or another country, like Kuwait. Iran may get off the hook, Syria could be # 2, but more likely terrorist groups in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines will be the targets of future covert and overt actions.

By spring 2002, the Taliban should be finished. If the Northern Alliance is somehow wiped out, which is unlikely, American, UK, and I do believe even Russian troops would be in there. The war against the Taliban won't last long, they'll be finished within a year at the most. Bin Laden will be found eventually, one day he'll screw up, and that day we'll be lucky.

thecurly1,

Thanks for sharing your views. Enjoyed reading your thoughts.

~~~~

When the time comes, the UN may take on the responsibility of setting up a new government in Afghanistan; for now at least George W. encourages them to do so. I'm not clear on how it would be to America's advantage to hang around for long after the Afghanistan "project" is...completed. I'm interested in hearing opinions on this.

Saddam has long been a concern for several reasons. Saudi Arabia, in general, poses several dilemmas. Tough ones.

How best to make a serious, permanent, crippling dent in al Qaeda's network; forward the so-called 'peace process;' resolve numerous other grievances held against the West; and bring the entire world up out of the dark ages?

How would any of you save the world?


Regards,


Counterbalance

"The course of this conflict is not known; yet its outcome is certain. And we know that God is not neutral." - George Bush

"This is an amazing assertion. When I think about the real or imagined parties involved in that bizarre holy war that is about to begin, I find it difficult to make a distinction about where the fanaticism is stronger." - Fidel Castro (on the subject of Bush's quote)

From: The South African Daily Mail & Guardian

I wonder if we are fighting the terrorist war like we are fighting the drug war... criminalize everything, if anyone is suspected, put them in jail indefinitely and take away their property. BTW, if your name ends with Ahmed, your money in the bank is frozen first, questions later. Does that mean, terrorists now will have Christian names along with hair cut and deodorant?

Since we won the drug war, we should be able to win the terrorist war. I guaranteeee it....

Chagur,

Let us hope that all religious fanatics fail in bringing about a 'holy war' --now and forever.

~~~~

kmguru,

I think it's appropriate to be watchful; to try to avoid the loss of certain rights, and especially for those who are innocent. However, I think your assertions are misleading.

Innocent until proven guilty--on both sides?

Just a thought...


Counterbalance

thecurly1,

The Taliban will find themselves trapped in those Afghan mountains and isolated, starved and slowly eliminated. Their days are numbered. Without any outside support from a major player, they are doomed. Also, those copters will be flying from bases within Afghanistan before too long.

Thanks Boswer, for the info that is.

I don't think this will turn into the War on Drugs, the latter stages of the War on Terrorism will be something akin to the cold war. Very secret, kind of dark. But that worked in helping to keep relitive stability and destroy the USSR.

<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/mi5logo.gif>
Welcome to your New World order!

What the hell is that Time?

I believe it is the emblem for a British Intelligence Unit: M(ilitary) I(ntelligence) 5

<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/mi5logo.gif>
(Taken from the "Bilderberg Research Website)
http://www.bilderberg.org

And now to address the indiferrence of perception as to this war being about a war on Terrorists (which is clearly evident) and yet a war on Drugs, which has been going on as early as the 1870's and continues to infect the levels of our most sacred and highest forms of administration. I conclude with looking at the bigger picture, it appears to seamlessly be well integrated, thus we cannot disallow the evident & most obviuos, the more dubious the leaders who would rather hear about your bones being picked out of a desert than to allow any discussion of their own involvement!

Confused? read the following.
Although I must advise you that abeit lengthly as it is, it is necessary to convey the information to gain a more educated asessment of the sophisticated processes that lead to this madness. (Reader Be Warned!)

From: cherokee@h...
Date: Fri Oct 19, 2001 6:14 pm
Subject: Re: [APFN] Fwd: WTC FRAME-UP PSY-OP CASE SOLVED
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CyonicNemeton/message/248

BE PREPARED FOR A BIG BRAIN CRAMP....cherokee

American Patriot Friends Network wrote:
>
> Here is how the WTC/Pentagon crash bombing operation came...
> http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=10401
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: WTC F R A M E - U P P S Y - O P C A S E S O L V E
> D -
> - W H O A N D W H Y -- w. ample evidence assembled
> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:45:16 -0700
> From: "Dick Eastman" <eastman@w...>
> To: <editor@v...>
>
> Here is how the WTC/Pentagon crashbombing operation came,
> about,with strong documentary evidence available supporting every
> step of this scenario. I am willing to field all questions discussants
> can devise to test this solution.
> =====================
>
> Mossad and the CIA were dealing Afgan-opium-derived "China-
> white" heroin or at least were devoting effort to protect the
> supply sources of the multi-trillion-dollar money-laundered
> deposits backing the global investments of American
> and Britsih merchant banks. The Afgan Northern Alliance
> druglords grow 80 to 90 percent of the worlds opium, the
> prime ingredient of heroin, which is then moved over the small
> China-Afgan boarder for processing and distribution by the
> giant People's Liberation Army - Triad transnational corporation-
> drug cartel-and military instrument. Against this giant network
> the religious Taliban had been erradicating Afgan opium production,
> supressing production and profits for druglords, bankers and
> globalization capitalists alike.
>
> Thus this became the initial motivation of a renegade group of CIA
> and/or Mossad having an interest in defeating Taliban.
> (Nothing absurd so far, right?)
>
> Next, the Russian and Kazakh mafias have ties with U.S. executive
> James Giffen in Kazakhstan -- a man under investigation by
> a New York grand jury in the months before September 11
> for illegal involvement in an oil swaps between Kazakhstan
> and sanctioned Iran (read the Aug. 9 New Yorker Magazine
> for a full account of this by Seymore Hershe -- I have already
> presented long excerpts of this in past posts) -- and all of the
> evidence for this crime was being kept on the 20th through
> 25th floor of one of the WTC towers where the FBI had its
> New York Offices. And James Giffen is the man anyone has
> to go through to get any oil agreement with Kazakhstan --
> including any pipelines built that would traverse Afganistan.
> (There is $6 trillion dollars worth of oil and gas in Central Asia.)
> Giffen certainly understood -- if he did not originate the idea --
> that if he couldcan get operatives (even "captured" vengeful Islamic
> activists whose rage could be shaped and directed to use of terror)
> to destroy the FBI offices in the WTC building and the documentation
> evidence it contained, then he would be escape grand jury indictment
> -- and, as an powerful added benefit, the (framed) Taliban would get
> replaced with a regime in Afganistan that would permit a pipeline to
> be
> built -- preferably a Northern Alliance druglord government that would
> harmonize with Giffen's own unethical (murderous) entrepreneural
> style.
> (See the New Yorker artlical for details of Giffen's history.)
>
> (So far this super-crime scheme involves only a small group of
> people--
> Russian Mafia and perhaps a Giffen - renegade CIA or a Giffen
> "dark-side" Mossad link. But other, even more powerful players
> may have had involvement -- certainly they stood to gain
> tremendously if the crashbomb frame-up were successfully accomplished.
> (Prior to September 11 charges had been brought against
> Alan Greenspan (forgive me -- in a previous post I said "Milton
> Friedman"
> instead of Greenspan -- Friedman is a great and honest and honorable
> academic scholar and Nobel Prize winner -- who, very superficially,
> looks like Greenspan)
> -- at any rate, Alan Greenspan, Goldman Sachs, Morgan & Co. and other
> powerful American financial figures and instiutions had charges
> brought
> against them -- reportedly a very well-documented case --over the
> fixing
> of gold prices -- with evidence for that case too stored by the FBI
> on the FBI floors of the WTC! These parties would not only profit
> heavily from the "carrot" of both oil and drug monies circulating
> through
> thier great
> financial instiutions, but they also would gain from avoding the
> "stick"
> of one of the most threatening lawsuits ever to confront the U.S.
> financial
> establishment (realize what a guilty verdict in this case would mean
> to
> these leading financial families and to the Establishment in general!)
> --
> these parties would welcome predictable and certainly substantial
> benefits from the the destruction of the evidence in the WTC
> and of some of the witnesses and researchers on the case as well.)
>
> Notice that so far we have powerful men with powerful incentives
> who characteristically operate in secret and under the protection
> of wealth, status and power -- both the carrot ($2 trillion in annual
> drug revenues funneled through the banking system -- which has
> funded much of the proceeds to fund the development of the
> Princeling-Triad dictatorship in China, btw, -- (The communist
> government
> has been in the opium business since the 1930's -- Mao pioneered the
> model later followed by Peru's Shining Path and Colombia's Maoist
> F.A.R.C. narco-terrorists. And Zhou Enlai devised the plan in the
> 1950's
> of weakening American society through a drug invasion.)
>
> "China white" heroin distributed by the People's Liberation Army,
> made from Afgan opium links all banker and oilman to the corrupt
> and renegade the secret state agencies, CIA, FBI, and Mossad
> -- renegade agents of either agency may have seen this opportunity
> for mutual gain and found the way -- having profiles of each of the
> players -- to propose the crashbombing frame-up as the best "solution"
> to each of players most troublesome problems, while making enormous
> profits besides.
>
> Note that the Bush's are tied to both the CIA and oil and, through
> Mena Arkansas drug smuggling and through the Iran-Contra
> drugs and arms deals etc. (drugworld investigator Daniel Hopsicker,
> as well as Noam Chomsky and many others have exposed this
> thoroughly -- at least in the broad strokes necessary to support
> this reconstruction of the crime.)
>
> (The facts of the drug connections are known to everyone from
> the Russians, to the John Birchers, to Wired Magazine, Harpers,
> New Yorker, the Village Voice, the Nation, and Rolling Stone
> Magazine, all having explored the drug - Establishment connections
> in great detail.)
>
> Which brings us to Ariel Sharon. His hard-head policy of
> retaliation regardless of collateral damage and his provocation
> at the mosque cost him dearly in world opinion. In fact the
> Bush administration was very close to making initiating a major
> policy shift -- obviously known to Sharon from the greatest
> intelligence
> organization in the world -- Bush was planning the the
> recognition/sponsorhip of a seperate Palestinian state. (Also
> war crime charges had been brought against Sharon in international
> court, further putting his hard-line policy against the Palestinians
> in unfavorable light.
>
> Mindful of Ariel Sharon's self-made hard spot, it is entirely
> possible that the same CIA or Mossad mastermind that thought of
> the crashbombing frame-up plan in the first place decided to take
> the risk of telling Sharon about the plan, offering it as a solution
> to the trapped old "freedom fighter's" problems as well. If the
> U.S. could be made to think that the hated Osama bin Laden --
> that Islamic fundametnalism itself -- is responsible for destroying
> twin towers of the WTC and the American government itself,
> then, Sharon would certainly grasp, American opinion woudl
> radically swing to an extremely hard line against all Moslem
> and Arab entities not securely under their thumb, and most
> particularly, from Sharon's viewpoint, against Palestinians.
>
> No profile of Sharon gives any indication that he would not
> close on such a deal, such a serving of his higher good, his
> prime directive.
>
> And that is all that was needed to carry off this operation.
>
> The getting and conditioning/deceiving of hijackers is an easy affair.
> Mossad has infiltrated bin Ladin's forces in Central Asia and the
> Mideast
> -- but it is a radically decentralized organization (as it must be to
> remain viable)
> and so it was an easy matter for this "dark-side" Mossad, with
> Sharon's
> clandestine approval, to trick some very angry and vengeful Arabs into
> thinking they were doing bin Ladens or some other anti-Zionist or
> anti-
> Globalization radicals to agree to hijack the four planes. Millions in
> the
> world hated the America and the globalization that the World Trade
> Center
> represents. These recruited hijackers need not have been Arabs --
> there
> are Croats, Serbs, Latin Americans, and Iranians and any number
> of other victim-pool people who could have volunteered to conduct
> the hijacking -- possibly without fully understanding the end result
> of
> the mission -- they need not have "signed on" for a suicide bombing.
> (Many aviation experts on the net are describing a system built
> into commercial airliners for taking over control of flight from the
> ground, a system developed to combat terrorism. It is possible
> that the course of the plane's flight was taken over by this system
> installed to thwart hijackers (detailed in several reports
> on the web.) But if the crashes were not effected in this way,
> psychological-control methods, wholly sufficient for the job, were
> also available. The technology of behavoir control is further
> advanced than the popular press has made people aware.
> Skilled psy op agents can get subjects angry enough and
> convinced enough of the justice and good effects of "acts'
> represented as serving their 'cause" to be willing to undertake
> even suicidal missions. (Activist Alan Yu has researched this
> technology as have other researchers from a broad spectrum
> of political orientation.)
>
> And this is all that is needed to conduct the terror act.
>
> But then what?
>
> When the crashes take place -- word merely has to be
> put out by those involved (the CIA, Mossad, Sharon
> and those complicit in the Bush Administration,
> (based on his behavior, my money is on Paul Wolfowitz)
> to push the theme that bin Ladin was responsible and that
> this aggressive war to overthrow the Taliban is the only
> immediate appropriate reaction -- since, the spin goes,
> the Afgans are responsible for "harboring" bin Laden and
> that "harboring is exactly the same as terrorism" and that
> for that reason the entire Afgan government must be
> terminated (must be "ended as a state" to use Wolfowitz's
> revealing phrasing of September 12.)
>
> The frame-up has all sorts of collateral benefits for the
> perpetrators. Now the perpetrators can tell the unsuspecting
> that bin Ladin's guilt has been established beyond doubt --
> that for the sake of the security and safety of Israel and
> the United States that it is necessary that the impression of
> an "open and shut case" must be spun. (The news media
> is exhorted to be patriotic and exemplary "wartime correspondents"
> and sets about selling the blaming of bin Ladin and advocating
> war and overthrow in Afganistan -- because they have been
> deceitfully led to believe they really know who bombed the
> buildings; and among the elite of the news publishers,
> they "know" it is in the best interests of Israel and Wall Street
> that this be the response, that this be the spin.
>
> And Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair each benefit enormously, politically.
>
> And trillions of dollars are enough to subdue and supress
> criticism of the investigation -- after all, who would know better
> than
> the CIA and Mossad exactly who is responsible? (The fact has
> been reported -- in a different context, of course -- that the U.S.
> intelligence receives all of its ground intelligence from Central Asia
> through Mossad's network of infiltrator spies -- in other words,
> whatever "proofs" the U.S. has (and has shown Tony Blair and NATO)
> has come exclusively through Sharon via Mossad. The "evidence"
> so-called, thus, is no counterweight to this reconstruction of the
> crime.
> The "evidence" comes exclusively from the prime "frame-up" suspect.
>
> Has Mossad done this kind of thing before? Remember
> the USS Liberty, an American ship with flag flying,
> deliberatly attacked and sunk (in multiple attack waves)
> with efforts to kill every saior abord -- either to destroy
> information that the ship may have intercepted or to
> frame Arab states to gain the support of American
> public opinion. (There are other cases involving the
> blowing up of a disco dance nightclub, again to frame
> targeted enemies -- a case actually brought to light
> by the non-renegade "good side" Mossad.
>
> The coverup apparently has unlimited resources. Two
> Mossad men caught red handed days after the WTC
> crashbombings, were carryhing explosive charges and
> detonation controls in the government chambers of the
> Mexican legislature? Apparently big bribes have been,
> because these men have been set free.
>
> One surmises that appeals are made to the bodey man
> of a "destabalizing international crisis" is the truth were
> to get out. This is ancient cloak of deviant ruling elites.
>
> How many readers -- even if they strongly suspect that
> this reconstruction fits the facts -- would not deny the
> conclusion anyway because of fear of what this fact would
> do to Israel's reputation and thus to her security and survival?
>
> Yet this view may be wrong. If Israeli's on the "good side"
> were to arrest Sharon and chase down the renegades of
> the Mossad "dark side" and bring them to justice --
> tensions in the Mideast would dissolve, and good-faith
> restored -- good faith that will never return to the world
> as long as the greatest terror frame-up in history is not
> corrected by justice and the truth.
>
> Also, if this reconstruction is valid, then that certainly
> raises the liklihood that Ariel Sharon was also the
> man who gave the order for the murder of Yhitzak Rabin.
> Israel's greatest peacmaker (if that title does not go to
> Began for his treaty with Sadat.)
>
> Conviction of Sharon would mean that the warmongering
> "take-no-prisoners" school of Zionism would at last be
> discredited and that the humanitarian way of Rabin
> could again be given another chance -- with
> the Palestinians gaining restored faith in Israel to be
> fair and just after seeing Sharon removed and brought
> to justice.
>
> I know that at this point you are poised to throw the
> usual tomatoes and call me a "loon" and a "nazi" -- but
> I know that those who call me those names are themselves
> fearful that this analysis may be right.. (ANd I forgive
> you in advance for having to through those tomatoes
> out of loyalty and not knowing what else to do in your
> uncertainty.)
>
> It is a rotten world all around -- but my advice is
> to seek the truth wherever it leads and then to enforce
> justice -- justice against the real authors of the Sept 11 terror,
> whoever they may be -- to go after Sharon just as strenuously
> as you were recently ready to hunt down bin Laden.
>
> And of course, the United States has a similar house cleaning
> of its topmost shelves of power and influence -- a job that we
> have been putting off since the 1870's. (How the entire world will
> benefit from that job!)
>
> (And I should make this clearer: The media are not silent because
> they are conmplicit in the terror -- they are silent because they
> are "yes men" who "know where their bread is buttered" and they
> are not about to jump up and say "Sharon did it" until they see
> others in their postions doing so. This is consitent with today's
> "Dilbert" world of Establishment-monopolized organizations.
> Only an earth shaking event, like the exposing of the Establishment's
> role in the WTC terror, will shake down this system.)
>
> Now, let's discuss this intelligently.
>
> Dick Eastman - eastman@w...
> Yakima, Washington
> Every man is responsible toevery other man.
> ================
>
> HEARING ON U.S. INTERESTS IN THE CENTRAL ASIAN REPUBLICS 1998
> http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=10389
>
> Afghanistan War Planned Months Before 911 Suicide Air Attack
> http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=10390
>
> ZHIRINOVSKY PREDICTS U.S. WILL DISINTEGRATE IN 10-15 YEARS
> http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=10394
>
> PUBLIC ACCESS TO GOVERNMENT INFO CURTAILED
> http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=10309
>
> Government Had Prior Knowledge - Pending 9-11 Attack
> http://www.apfn.org/apfn/knowledge.htm
>
> "WE ARE APT TO SHUT OUR EYES AGAINST A PAINFUL TRUTH...
> FOR MY PART, I AM WILLING TO KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH;
> TO KNOW THE WORST; AND TO PROVIDE FOR IT."
> ---- Patrick Henry
> http://www.apfn.org/old/apfncont.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> [Image]
>
>
>
> American Patriot Friends Network (APFN)
> http://www.apfn.org
> APFN EMAIL LIST SUBSCRIBE/UNSCBSCRIBE IN SUBJECT LINE TO:
> apfn@a...
> APFN YahooGroups:
> Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apfn/join
> Unsubscribe: apfn-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> APFN CONTENTS: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/apfncont.htm
> APFN MSG BOARD: http://disc.server.com/Indices/149495.html
>
> APFN SITE MAP:
> http://www.apfn.org/apfn/sitemap.htm
>
> Public Education System vs Christian Home Schooling
> Home School News, Info. & Links
> http://www.ordination.org/homeschool.htm
>
> "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
> better
> than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We
> ask
> not your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands of those
> who feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you. May posterity
> forget
> that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:32:42 -0700
From: cherokee@h...
Organization: SMOKE SIGNAL/COMMUNICATIONS
To: "cherokee@h..." <cherokee@h...>

FREE THESE UNJUSTLY INCARCERATED PEOPLE:: Please drop him a letter, or
souvenire postcard from your area to:

Mark Gregory Koernke #295350 Michigan Reformatory (RMI)
1342 W. Main Street Ionia Michigan Republic Postal Zone 48846
+++++++++
CAROLYN CARNEY-TEXAS PRISON-SHE HID IN A CLOSET [WHERE THERE WAS A
GUN]ARRESTED FOR ASSAULT-SHE IS A GRANDMOTHER-SURPRISE VISIT FROM THE
JBT'S--
+++++++++
BRIAN AND RUTH CHRISTINE Read more about Brian and Ruth at
http://www.eionews.addr.com/psyops/christinefamily.htm.
WARNING: Exposure to the Son may prevent burning!

That's an amazing theory--to be sure!!

I confess I haven't read every single post from the beginning of this thread, most though not all, yet I wonder... Is it so highly implausible that religious fanaticism, mixed with hatred, irrationality and plain ol' insanity are the true and sole culprits behind the WTC, Pentagon, and PA plane tragedies?

Must there always be a grand conspiracy theory?

I can't dispute the evidence proffered and don't have time to check it all out. "China White" may well be involved with this. Wouldn't rule it out. I do however appreciate that so many links were provided in order that anyone can look into this more deeply.

Still...that's quite a remarkable assertion.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Mine was just a gut feeling, but this makes sense!

I don't feel like participating in a debate with the conspiracy theorists, because usually they are so damn stubborn to accept a reasonable clause for the attack that they dodge every substancial fact with some weird ass scheme.

If they wanted to build a pipeline through Afghanistan, don't you think the Taliban would have been ousted much easier, with out a grand war, or even paid to keep quiet. Remember we are talking about the "all powerful Bilderburgs". Its a stupid idea for a secret society to instagate a super overt war.

We make these conspiracies to try to control an event or situation which we cannot control. This way it gives us a false sense of security and understanding of something that can't be understood by simple logic.

"Those our my principals. If you don't like them, I have others", Groucho Marx, 1890-1977

Sorry for the misunderstanding Counter_balance. All I am pointing out is to look at the big picture: Drugs, Oil, & Economic domination.

Heard on the street: Even God has a big picture. God gave oil to some people so that, they will help their fellow men. Instead, these oil rich countries abusing their gift...

Chaos is everywhere.....:D

No conspiracy here

This event has been waiting in the wings for a long time. There is no conspiracy. Their are plenty of people out there that hate America enough to perpetrate this crime, no need for mind control or nudging them on. They have been trying to hurt America in any way they could for years.

If you try hard enough there's a conspiracy in everything. Try that hard to believe this for what it is. An attack against what we believe in by a hostile terrorist group.

Yep. A conspiracy so large would not stay hidden for very long. I will concede, nonrtheless, that nations have been manipulated many times in our past history, and that men of power have brought great evil upon millions for nothing more than the petty pursuit of profit.

Anyway, I think this is the work of terrorism, and I support the effort to extinquish the fire that burns there. That is not to say that currrent events are not being exploited. I see the billions of American dollars which are now being shoveled out since 911. Watching the money flow is of great interest.

<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/mi5logo.gif>
So am I too understand that due to the complexities of conspiracies within our political & economic infrastructures, that most of the sheepole are willing to lay down & die, sacrifice their constitutional rights under a democratic-republican, or socialistic society to those who would impose, impede, or threaten them by Illegal means of Inimante domain a such? If you as a “Free Society” so to speak do not believe that you are being fooled by the biggest scam of the century, than can only I feel pity for those who.

Just one more thing to add levity to this statement, I suggest you carefully review the following article below & search for the meaning on your own, we all have our own perceptions on world views and issues, but it’s the weak & misunderstood minds that continue to fall victim to such conundrums, and I feel that it is my patriotic duty to be a voice in your midst to call out to those who are sharper knives in the drawer to realize that it don’t take a rocket scientist to understand what lies in front of your face before you, and that it don’t necessarily meant that those who are willing to accept the truth are a few fries short of a happy meal.

Energy Independence Now!
We Need A New Energy Revolution
http://www.sfgate.com/technology/beat
Hal Plotkin, Special to SF Gate Thursday, October 4, 2001

--------------------------------------------------------------

Amid this week's latest batch of unbearably sad stories about the victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, one of the most important stories is the one we haven't read.

To continue, review the original post of this article at the following Link Provided below...
Energy Independence Now!
http://www.sciforums.com/t4234/s04c98bda2ebfb5507f37e8552304024d/thread.html

<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/adolf.jpg>
Welcome To Yor New World Order!

.

.

will not be able to win this war with the OLD worn out stuff it is using.
Did you see those helicopter parts that the Talliban shot down??
Bald eagle wheel's all worn out & the legs all rusty!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Boy, I would like to catch some of those defense dollars.

Still no conspiracy here

With or with out an alternate source of energy we will rely on oil for many more years. Yes of course we do need an alternative source of energy. But for now oil we be big man on campus and we have known this for years.

Going back to your earlier post about a conspiracy. If the information was in the trade center, why the other targets. Why not just take out the WTC. Regardless of the other targets the finger was still going to point at these terrorist organizations. If these the people behind your theory are so smart they forgot one important thing. The more aspects involved(the two other planes) the more of a chance to be caught.

Update,

the wheels of a helicopter fell off, the copter wasn't that old.

What do you guys think of the reported civilian deaths?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the wheels of a helicopter fell off, the copter wasn't that old.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes was just a joke,like the Talliban showing old bits & saying they shot it down.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you guys think of the reported civilian deaths?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think its a pity but can not be helped,mind you your guys are good.
They are doing a good job,keeping the civilian deaths on the low side.

The apparent civiallian deaths!

No civvy has been hurt in my eyes. Lets look at it like this. The taliban said that they shot down one of our helicopters and we know that aint true. They also claimed when this whole thing started that they didnt know where Osama was, then they said about a day later that they knew where he was and was under there protection! So who do you think is telling the truth? The taliban are obviously using propaganda to keep there war effort going because with out believers then wont be any taliban. The taliban are trying to stop there "people" from leaving and going to pakistan. So look at it how you will they are LIARS!

Originally posted by thecurly1
Update,

the wheels of a helicopter fell off, the copter wasn't that old.

What do you guys think of the reported civilian deaths?

~~~~~~~

From reports I've heard, our military has acknowledged that wheels were 'torn off' of one of our helicopters during a recent "take off" over there. I believe the report said the copter didn't quite clear a wall or something. Could be true. Could also be true that locals found scraps of one of our copters lying in the wilds (from an old accident or downing) and brought them in for inspection, and that a false story was fabricated by the Taliban.

Which is more likely? I lean toward the US story. We have plenty of young, under-experienced pilots capable of making mistakes during take-offs and landings. There have been several reports/complaints of copters stirring up dust and obscuring the pilots' view. We also have lots of evidence that the Taliban does not encourage truthful news reporting. (to put it nicely)

~~~

Recent civilian deaths were reported to have occurred in a hospital. A UN spokesperson has confirmed that civilians in a military hospital which was part of a military compound was hit along with other buildings during a recent attack. They could not confirm whether or not a "red crescent" (like the Red Cross) symbol was visible on this building.

There is already evidence to suggest that the Taliban and its military don't care much for their civilians anyway. Wouldn't be surprised to learn that there was no symbol marking the hospital.

Other reports may contradict this one later. For now that's all I've heard.

~~~~


Counterbalance

thecurly1

From the picture I saw it definitely looked like antiquated wreckage.

The taliban reporting 1000 civilians dead or injured is ridiculous. I don't think they have enough people in any one area to even tally a significant amount of casualties.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/261001/detfor04.asp
and this.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/261001/detFOR20.asp

So the stuff about dead civilians in Afghanistan is all lies?

Possibly.

But don't forget - the US government has lied many times to cover its often dirty tracks. Of course 'collateral damage' ( you ever heard a more callous description of killing people? ) occurs in wars - but the way we just call reports of deaths 'taliban claims' is just pure propaganda.

The fact is - the US doesn't really care whether they kill civilians or not and you all know it. Revenge is revenge - kicking ass is kicking ass. Would it bother you if a hospital full of kids got blown up? No - not really. The US has done it before and denied it before in the past in several other countries. Then it admits its 'mistakes' later down the line when nobodies listening or cares.

And you people wonder where terrorists come from.

Next you'll be telling us that Osamar Bin ladin is an Afghani.

I disagree.

If we wanted revenge, we'd carpet bomb a major city a few times and get 5,000 deaths. There's no point in doing it with 2 million dollars cruise missiles. If we wanted revenge we'd get it.

Its unfortunate that civilians die, but until bullets know the difference between a civilan and terrorist, innocent people will die.

The Taliban have been using hospitals, UN and Red Cross facilites to keep themselves sustained during the war. If we have to hit them so be it. Not to mention they are hinding in mosques, and use civilan buses and cars to transport themselves.

I have a horrible fear that we may have to send ground troops into the cities to destroy the Taliban, even with the N. Alliance.

If so I hope we get help from the UK, Russia, and a few other countries.

Is that what Osamar Bin ladin is doing????:mad:

thecurly1
Exactly! If we wanted to kill civillians then we would be doing that right now but were not!

If i hear one more person say "Well the USA bombed hiroshima and killed all those civvys" You guys need to take a history lesson on that one. We bombed hiroshima and nagasaki because had we not then the war would of went on for another 5 years and more death would of resulted from that then the actually bombing of the citys. Another thing is that we warned japan about our very "powerful weapon" and they didnt believe us. Another thing that we did was drop leaflits on the citys saying to leave or seek shelter and to warn there government, but did they believe us? No they didnt to bad for them and we did it to save lives.

So we dont plan on killing civvys we dont do it on purpose, we do by accident and eventually say "Hey we did that were sorry" and we are forgiven and all is forgotten and then people 40 years later bring it up again and forget why that happend. Learn your history before you decide to use it to prove a point because the US is all good.

<Img Src=http://www.thetimes.co.uk/images/timesLogo.gif>
<Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif>
Bin Laden's nuclear threat?

BY: PHILIP WEBSTER AND ROLAND WATSON

OSAMA BIN LADEN and his al-Qaeda network have acquired nuclear materials for possible use in their terrorism war against the West, intelligence sources have disclosed.
The Western sources say that the suspected mastermind of the September 11 attacks on America does not have the capability to mount a nuclear attack but fear he would do so if he could.

They believe that he obtained the materials illegally from Pakistan, which has a nuclear capability.

The knowledge that bin Laden has components for a nuclear weapons device in his arsenal is believed to lie behind the regular warnings from President Bush and Tony Blair that he would commit worse atrocities than the suicide assaults on New York and Washington if he were able to.

They may also explain the speed with which the decision was taken to go after bin Laden and his terrorist network, even if that meant toppling the Taleban regime in Afghanistan first.

The disclosure comes as MPs prepare to learn today the details of British troops earmarked for deployment to Afghanistan. They will include a commando group of about 1,000 Royal Marines, currently on exercise in Oman, as well as a large contingent of special forces and specialist support units. The force will be based on ships that have also been participating in the huge tri-Service exercise. They are expected to include the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious, stripped of her Harrier jets so she can be used as a platform for helicopters, or HMS Ocean, a dedicated helicopter carrier, two anti-aircraft destroyers to protect the carrier, the assault ship HMS Fearless, and two Royal Fleet Auxiliary support vessels.

Yesterday Mr Blair sought to reassure Muslim leaders that the military action in Afghanistan should be over as quickly as possible. He told the Islamic Response to Terrorism Conference in North London: “I hope you understand that what is important is that we make sure at the same time we take the action necessary now in order to hold to account those who committed the actions of September 11.”

There has been clear evidence for several years that bin Laden’s agents have been trying to buy, steal or smuggle nuclear systems in order to attack the West. He has said that it was his “religious duty” to seek to acquire chemical, biological and nuclear weapons of mass destruction.

An informed source has told The Times that bin Laden appeared to have amassed a “terrifying” range of weapons although he was insistent that he did not have the capacity to launch a nuclear attack.

Intelligence sources, however, have voiced concerns about bin Laden obtaining radioactive material for a “dirty bomb”. Rather than being used in an atomic weapon, the material would be dispersed in a way that would seriously contaminate a small area. In an urban environment hundreds of people could die and thousands more be exposed to radiation poisoning.

In 1993 a senior bin Laden operative, Jamal al-Fadi, met a Sudanese military commander in Khartoum to try to negotiate the sale of a cylinder of enriched South African uranium for a black market price of $1.5 million (£1.2 million). A separate al-Qaeda attempt to buy weapons-grade nuclear material through the Russian mafia was foiled in Prague when several kilograms of highly enriched uranium were seized, according to a German TV report last week.

Earlier this week two former government nuclear scientists in Pakistan were detained amid fears about their links with the Taleban. Bashir uddin Mahmood was project director in Pakistan’s nuclear programme before its 1998 tests. Since retiring from the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission three years ago, he ran a group which carried out relief work in Afghanistan, and was known to be supportive of the Taleban. Chaudry Abdul Majid was a director of the commission in 1999.

Intelligence officials have long been aware of the potential for contraband uranium to be turned into an atomic “suitcase bomb”. An easier outcome is a radiological weapon — a conventional weapon with a radioactive core — which has the ability to contaminate large areas.

George Tenet, Director of the CIA, told the Senate Intelligence Committee last year that bin Laden was trying to obtain nuclear materials.

However, some are convinced bin Laden already has a nuclear capability. According to a book about the terrorist leader, The Man Who Declared War on America, Chechen rebels facilitated the sale of nuclear suitcase bombs in the late 1990s from a range of former Soviet republics including Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Russia.

Quoting Russian and Arab intelligence sources, the author, Yossef Bodansky, says that bin Laden’s go-betweens paid the Chechens $30 million in cash and gave them two tonnes of heroin with a Western street value of up to $700 million for a number of bombs.

In 1998 bin Laden issued a statement entitled “The Nuclear Bomb of Islam”, which said: “It is the duty of Muslims to prepare as much force as possible to terrorise the enemies of God.”

Copyright 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350025-2001372097,00.html

I'm not sure that the "suitcase bombs" exist, if they did I have a feeling Osama would have used it by now.

As for making a dirty nuke, it would be relitivley easy. As long as you had some simple tooling machines, and explosives you could spread the contaminate over a large area. This would polute the area for years.

This is why we must get Bin Laden, I don't think the U.S. can afford any nuclear strike on NY, or DC, which would be the two most logical targets.

This is Iraq's best weapon: the Scud B R-17 SRBM with a range of 300km, and a payload of 985 kgs. A nuclear bomb of a small yield could be carried by this SCUD.

While Iraq may not fire this at Israel or a U.S. base from its own country, Hussein or Bin Laden could drive one of these deep into another country, and launch the missile. Imagine if a nuclear Scud was driven to a remote location in Pakistan and fired into India.

Pakistan and India would nuke eachother, destroy any colation and dissrupting the war on terrorism.

P.S. Afghanistan has a SS-1 Scud which is identical to Iraq's, and operational. This isn't that far off.

I almost feel like e-mailing the Pentagon.

<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/mi5logo.gif>
You already have.

Does anyone believe this is a plausable situation?

While I'm not shaking in my boots, this could be done if the two componets and a sufficent terrorist network had the power.

After this latest incursion by the new bill recently signed by the U.S. President Busch, you can now kiss your civil liberties "Goodbye"
(it is intended to remain until 2005)
<Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif>

My concern is the stability of Pakistan's military rule and the security of its nuclear arsenal. The negative elements are close and within its borders. Should the present government fall victim to radical muslim aggressions, we might have reason to fear future terrorism. One can only hope that the US has an eye on Pakistan's nuclear installations and is prepared to remove the potential threat should the need arise.

thecurly1,

Plausible?

Tough to answer. And we, the general public, only know some of what's really going on; only some of what our & other governments/military entities are doing, or plan to do. By the same token, this doesn't mean they are only up to no good.

I expect they are aware of a good number of possible nuclear scenarios and have taken measures to avert those they think most likely. Hope they think correctly. And while Hope may be all we have, it's better than nothing. Theorizing about what could happen can be useful, or it can also be nothing more than just heaping fuel on the bonfire of Fear.

George W. sounds awfully confident these days on the telly, and claims he has the world's best advisors and is receiving significant intelligence support from all over. My take is that our government is VERY aware of the nuclear threat and is taking it MOST seriously. Takes a lot to move an American government to pass the kind of Anti-terrorism bill it just has. Speaks volumes to me, along with many other things taking place. Note, too, how the military is leaking far less info about spec. op. teams. They're taking this very seriously.

(Glad you're not shaking in your boots, though, curly1. Me neither. Won't serve much of a useful purpose, eh?)

~~~~~

"Kissing our civil liberties goodbye"

Extremely unfortunate that "we" were moved to pass these measures. Rather than kiss mine goodbye, however, I think I'll continue to keep a watchful eye on how the government proceeds from here. My bet is that if they go too far (a relative term, I understand) that there are plenty of Americans who are willing to fight against it. Going on the evidence of our history, and not solely on wishful thinking.

Positive thinking ain't a bad thing, though. :)

~~~~~

And by all means, keep an eye on Pakistan. Instability creates all kinds of negative possibilities. Reports from all over suggest that the entire world is turning their gaze in that direction.

I ain't over 'til it's over, and it ain't hopeless yet.

~~~

Counterbalance

<Img Src=http://media.bigstep.com/shop/5/76/10408765/upload/997552780913.JPG>
The future, is not at all in sequence of what we imagined when it finally arrives, but rather some odd sort of compilation of; thought creating density, does have some matrionic properties, thus enabling us humans, the ability for to give birth to what the majority of their collective thought process dwell upon.

Take this a step further...
Human will is a dominant force of energy within each & every one of us (for those who are persistent with hope)... thus this God-Like Force that emanates from what is commonly articulated as a "Soul" is often withheld by most of the populous in general, and the numbers continue to escalate until the End Of Days.

Based upon this observation of philosophy, I can only deduce that this force cannot be destroyed, only transformed, redirected, or "Manipulated"

Repression of humanities free will by outside manipulative forces, seems the best combative maneuver for those descending dark forces, that wish to seize power, and force humanity to submit into slavery.

The largest obstacle that blocks humanity from ascending, and progressing to the higher levels of spiritual evolution, is that we are "shooting blanks" to fight this "Antichristo" as prophetic visions through the ages have warned. Unless the majority of the matrionic voices of humanity vibrate in multi-dimensional resonance "Acknowledging" the existence of their own souls, all bets are off to win this one for now.

I have been telling many people for yrs. even when I was in High School back in the late 1970's that the former "League of Nations" now known as the "U.N." will someday be given power due to an uprising after the fall of the cold war era, and form a Global GVT.

Trilaterals, Builderburgers forming an alliance/merger???

Less people seem to be smiling about this lately


"Energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed"
--Einstein


A world war in 2015 killed nearly three billion people. The people that survived grew closer together. Life is centered around the family and then the community. I can not imagine living even a few hundred miles away from my parents. There is no large industrial complex creating masses of useless food and recreational items. Food and livestock is grown and sold locally. People spend much more time reading and talking together face to face. Religion is taken seriously and everyone can multiple and divide in the heads."


"It has always surprised me why that concept is so hard for people to imagine and accept. Nothing would happen. The universe would not end and there are no paradox problems that threaten existence. Temporal space-time is made up of every possible quantum state. The Everett Wheeler model is correct. I have met and/or seen myself twice on different world lines. The first was a training mission and the second is now. I was born in 1998 so the other "me" is 2 on this world line. There is a saying where I come from....Every possible thing that can happen or will happen has already happened somewhere."

(To continue reviewing this article, please goto the following link below)...
http://p3n.org/pn120100.shtml

Bilderburgers, trilaterials, illuminati, skull and bones, don't exist, and if they do they are rich social clubs, not secret world gov'ts.

The UN has very little power, I would predict that if they hamper the US on the war on terrorism, we'll withdraw partially or completely from the UN.

The conspiracy about a world government has been going on for decades. What's taking them so long to do it? Everyone's estimate from "ecret sources" on the inside are always being prolonged. First it was 1990, then '95, then 2000, et cetra.

************************************************** **
Time, this isn't an incursion on civil liberties. This is a modification, not full on expansion of law enforcement powers. Wiretaps still have to be approved by a judge.

You have no constitutional liberty or right to be free from inconvient questioning. This is what pisses me off about those griping over racial profiling and the anti-terrorism bill (Patriot Act of 2001). Granted racial profiling shouldn't be done in peacetime, but it should be conducted in a limited fashion during a time of war.

5,000 people dead is an equal price to pay for someone being asked a dozen more questions at an airport?

While I'm not saying that every Arab is a terrorist, most of these terrorists are Arab.

Repression of humanities free will by outside manipulative forces, seems the best combative maneuver for those descending dark forces, that wish to seize power, and force humanity to submit into slavery.

~~~~

By and large we are driven by pain, fear and guilt. As humans, we do whatever we think we should to combat what we perceive as a real threat. In these days, in the here-and-now, we have problems to solve and choices to make. That is reality for many folk.

Dark forces would descend, and imperfect forces will resist. This is the nature of man.

I propose that we each do the best we can, and according to our own consciences, to resist that which is against Life.

Hope can be a weapon or a tool.

It can also just be...Hope.

Six billion people and six billion ways to look at it.

~~~~

Peace,


Counterbalance

Hey time instead of using articles why dont you use your own opinions and not derive them from other peoples opinions just to sound smart, okay?

Im not worried about nuclear war myself, okay I am scared but only if I go on surviving and end up dieing very slowly like in that book On The Beach by Nevil Shute.

The UN has power....okay they have a triple A card to tow trucks but who cares?

<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/mi5logo.gif>
CounslerCoffee:
"Hey time instead of using articles why dont you use your own opinions and not derive them from other peoples opinions just to sound smart, okay?

F.Y.I. "I did write them, at least the first one was written by myself, the other was recieved from an associate which I had posted to the newsletter at p3n.org, If you looked at them at all from those links, you would see "Time02112" as "Whom" these articles were submitted by, none-the-less---
"FLAME ON!"
<Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif><Img Src=http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/fireanim.gif>

Human will is a dominant force of energy within each & every one of us (for those who are persistent with hope)... thus this God-Like Force that emanates from what is commonly articulated as a "Soul" is often withheld by most of the populous in general, and the numbers continue to escalate until the End Of Days.

The God-Like force is working mysterious ways to save us from ourselves...the same way it happened with Russia...

Oh so there your sucky articles? Dont even answer that because I already know that there your sucky articles. SCUKITY SUCK SUCK SUCK! Teach you to say the same thing more then once jsut so you can sound smart.

Counclercoffe, who were those remarks made to?

I suggest you awanser my question ASAP, we may have a problem.

Thecurly1
Moderator

Its not you thecurly1 were cool, right? It's time he keeps getting smart wiht me. Its okay ive already put him on ignore there wont be anymore problems.

It seems that the media is unhappy with the war because it is not producing sensational headlines on a daily basis.
Everyone seems to have their own expectations from this war & are pushing their views of the best course of action to meet their own ends, as opposed to what the Allies intend to do.


If Eternal life really exists,you must already be in it!

When my kids were little, if we took a trip that lasts 10 hours, every half hour they will ask: Are we there yet....

Sound familiar?

Have a look at this.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001370003-2001374353,00.html

Raw Hide...

That is a good link. They're so anxious to herd themselves into Afghanistan.

<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/mi5logo.gif>

Counterbalance:

Must there always be a grand conspiracy theory?

"I can't dispute the evidence proffered and don't have time to check it all out. "China White" may well be involved with this. Wouldn't rule it out. I do however appreciate that so many links were provided in order that anyone can look into this more deeply.

Still...that's quite a remarkable assertion.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

"Kissing our civil liberties goodbye"

Extremely unfortunate that "we" were moved to pass these measures. Rather than kiss mine goodbye, however, I think I'll continue to keep a watchful eye on how the government proceeds from here. My bet is that if they go too far (a relative term, I understand) that there are plenty of Americans who are willing to fight against it. Going on the evidence of our history, and not solely on wishful thinking.

Positive thinking ain't a bad thing, though."
------------------------------------------------------

thecurly1:

"I don't feel like participating in a debate with the conspiracy theorists, because usually they are so damn stubborn to accept a reasonable clause for the attack that they dodge every substancial fact with some weird ass scheme.

If they wanted to build a pipeline through Afghanistan, don't you think the Taliban would have been ousted much easier, with out a grand war, or even paid to keep quiet. Remember we are talking about the "all powerful Bilderburgs". Its a stupid idea for a secret society to instagate a super overt war.

We make these conspiracies to try to control an event or situation which we cannot control. This way it gives us a false sense of security and understanding of something that can't be understood by simple logic. "

(*Oh Really? wait till you read the "Rest Of The Story")

---T12
------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Wood \(BellSouth\)" <woodb01@b...>
Date: Fri Oct 19, 2001 6:27 am
Subject: RE: [VOCAL-NASVO] It's time to take a stand...


You really don't get it, do you. This country is FILLED with
Communists and Socialists and they HATE America and what it stands
for. They HATE Patriotism. They have been working diligently since
the 50's to gain a presence and a foothold in our country. And they
have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

All this "America" attention and patriotism threatens to turn back
the Clock 30 years on their war against Patriotism, their War on God,
and their war on the family and values.

The Communists, Socialists / Marxists have infiltrated
the "democratic" party and LIE that they are democrats. They LIE
that they are the "party of the people". Don't believe it? If they
REALLY believe in democracy, wouldn't it be appropriate to wave those
flags because that is the "will of the people"? Wouldn't it be
appropriate to hang those signs because that is the "will of the
people"?

NONE OF THEM BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY! Hiding behind that label is a
convenient way to deceive and manipulate the American people.
Further, the LAST thing they want people to consider is the pledge of
allegiance, most especially where it talks about America being a
REPUBLIC, NOT a democracy. Read the Constitution. WE ARE SUPPOSED
TO HAVE A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT! Read the Constitutional
debates, they dicussed true democracy, and history taught them it was
dangerous, it ONLY leads to tyranny. They chose a Republican FORM of
government with Democratic principles.

It may be too late to take a stand. America's "patriotism" is
beginning to wane already. And that after just some 30+ days after a
national disaster.

Bill Wood
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Time02112" <TapTen@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:13 pm
Subject: Re: It's time to take a stand...


You really don't get it, do you?
Oh believe me, I "Do" but it's a sad thing that the "Sheepole" of
American Citizens don't Why? because it smells of a political
conspiracy, and GOD forbid, there are no such things as GVT, or GVT
related political conspiracies (Yeah Right!) those who subscribe to
such conspiracies are schitzofrenic, and most of the UFO's are
wheater ballons, swamp gas, metorites or some other naturally
occuring phenonema! there is no such thing as the latin
inscription "Novus Oder Seclorum" although designed by Fremasons,
having any connections to trying to establish a "New World Order"
it's just coincidental that this is what the translation defines to
what is on the back of your US Dollar by the Pyramid & All seeing
eye, the United Nations just don't have the power to become a
dominant seat of world power! (Yet?) and the U.S> would never
consider the thought of declaring matial law upon it's own citizens
to weed out "undesirables' spearheaded by the joint task force of
combined law enforcement & GVT agencies to the likes of FEMA, US
Census Bureau, Boarder Patrol depts. backed by local law enforcement
agencies & the National Guard to sweep by everyones home, search
without warrant (under martial law, it is exclusionary of the U.S.
Constitution) Now way, they would never do this!!!

......(or would they?)

Repression of humanities free will by outside manipulative forces, seems the best combative maneuver for those descending dark forces, that wish to seize power, and force humanity to submit into slavery.

I have been telling many people for yrs. even when I was in High School back in the late 1970's that the former "League of Nations" now known as the "U.N." will someday be given power due to an uprising after the fall of the cold war era, and form a Global GVT.

Trilaterals, Builderburgers forming an alliance/merger???

Less people seem to be smiling about this lately ...

So am I too understand that due to the complexities of conspiracies within our political & economic infrastructures, that most of the sheepole are willing to lay down & die, sacrifice their constitutional rights under a democratic-republican, or socialistic society to those who would impose, impede, or threaten them by Illegal means of Inimante domain a such? If you as a “Free Society” so to speak do not believe that you are being fooled by the biggest scam of the century, than can only I feel pity for those who.

Just one more thing to add levity to this statement, I suggest you carefully review the following article below & search for the meaning on your own, we all have our own perceptions on world views and issues, but it’s the weak & misunderstood minds that continue to fall victim to such conundrums, and I feel that it is my patriotic duty to be a voice in your midst to call out to those who are sharper knives in the drawer to realize that it don’t take a rocket scientist to understand what lies in front of your face before you, and that it don’t necessarily meant that those who are willing to accept the truth are a few fries short of a happy meal.

---T12
----------------------------------------------------------------

And Now for "The Continuation"
here's the latest news, put this together with what was discussed earlier, and perhaps you may become more inclined to believe what I have been trying to get accross all along!

US Martial Law Inevitable says Defense Secretary
http://www.devvy.com/martial.html
US Martial Law Coming? Cohen Predicts Army Will Patrol Streets

Army Times
Staff/Wire Reports
10-27-98

US Defense Secretary Predicts the Army Will Patrol US Streets
"Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to
choose between civil liberties and more intrusive means of
protection," says Defense Secretary William S. Cohen

The nation's defense chief told the Army Times he once considered the
chilling specter of armored vehicles surrounding civilian hotels or
government buildings to block out terrorists as strictly an overseas
phenomenon.

But no longer.
"It could happen here," Cohen said he concluded after 8 months of
studying threats under the Pentagon microscope. Free-lance terrorists
with access to deadly chemical and biological bombs are "going to
change the way in which the American people view security in our own
country," he predicted in a Sept 10 interview.

Cohen is calling for the government to step up its efforts to
penetrate wildcard terrorist organizations. "It's going to require
greater intelligence on our part -- much greater emphasis on
intelligence gathering capability - more human intelligence, and it's
going to take more technical intelligence," he said.

But using the U.S. military in a domestic law enforcement role would
require revisions to laws in force for more than a century, cautions
Shreveport attorney John Odom, Jr. "You can't do it from the Defense
Department side unless Congress dramatically revises the Posse
Comitatus laws." said Odom, a colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve
and a reserve Judge Advocate.

"The 1878 law specifically prohibits the use of the military in
domestic law enforcement unless authorized by Congress or the
Constitution and does not allow for military intervention through
action by the Secretary of Defense of even an Executive Order from
the President," Odom said. We're trained from the first day of Judge
Advocate school to think of Posse Comitatus !!! said Odom. "If
Secretary Cohen is suggesting that the Department of Defense be
involved, it may be part of a legislative package, but it will not
happen unilaterally without a lot of folks thinking long and hard
about it."

Cohen said terrorism would be a top priority in 5 new areas he plans
to focus on now that he has wrapped up his first defense budget, the
quadrennial review of the military and a new 4-year defense strategy.
Other goals include modernizing the military, improving troops
housing and other benefits, streamlining the defense bureaucracy and
shaping new military relationships and contracts across the globe.

and another precursor that will contribute to expiditng this plan of action...

Officials: Mass Quarantines Likely
This article comes courtesy of Fox News. The original, posted five
weeks before the September 11 attacks, is at:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31376,00.html

America Faced Bioterrorism Attack!

Saturday, August 04, 2001


*Email this Article & Pass it on!

CHICAGO — In an America that guards its civil liberties, police can't
just shut down cities, make mass arrests and quarantine thousands of
people. Or can they?


Current and former federal officials said Friday that if there is a
terrorist attack with biological weapons, private rights would
quickly be swamped by the need to protect the public. State borders
could close, vaccines could be rationed or commandeered, the Army
could even take over cities within weeks of a deadly attack, an
American Bar Association panel predicted.

"To an extent, people are going to do what needs to be done and worry
about the legal niceties later," said Suzanne Spaulding, a former top
lawyer for the CIA and the Senate Intelligence Committee.

The ABA panel, part of the annual meeting of the 400,000-lawyer
organization, played out an imaginary terrorist campaign to infect
Americans with the plague — from the first tips by an FBI informant
in New Mexico to closure of the Minnesota borders and riots in
Cincinnati.

Along the way came word that a rogue Russian scientist and the Iraqi
military were involved. Eventually, the FBI, CIA, National Centers
for Disease Control, the White House, Pentagon and governors of
several states were also involved — each with broader power than many
people probably know they have, participants said.

Under the hypothetical scenario, law enforcement could do little when
a would-be terrorist shows up at a Santa Fe emergency room with a
case of the plague. The investigation intensified, and the FBI got
much broader authority, when several people died of the plague after
attending a concert in Minneapolis.

Political pressure intensified, with a demand from 20 senators of the
opposite political party from the president that the White House
declare a national state of emergency. Then came word that the
terrorists planned another attack during a street festival in
Cincinnati.

Under this scenario, the FBI could go to a special court for
permission to investigate foreigners, but could not begin stopping
everyone in downtown Cincinnati who resembles a tipster's description
of a suspected terrorist, said Eugene Bowman, deputy general counsel
for the FBI.

Nor could the FBI order the downtown area cordoned off and every
building searched, Bowman said. Agents would need warrants based on
better specifics than those offered in the hypothetical terrorist
attack.

But local police could do what the FBI cannot, so long as it was
based on the need to protect public health, said Terry O'Brien, legal
consultant to a national notification network tracking infections
diseases.

"The idea is to prevent the epidemic," not to catch and punish a
wrongdoer, O'Brien said.

The president could declare martial law and federalize state National
Guards, said Michael Wermuth, head of a group advising the government
on how well it is preparing for nuclear, chemical or biological
terrorism.

The attorney general and the defense secretary could also invoke a
federal law that lets them call in soldiers to keep order if police
or other law enforcement cannot, Wermuth said.

"The military can be engaged directly in arrests, search and seizure
and intelligence collection for law enforcement purposes," Wermuth
said. "There's very raw authority to use the military to do any
number of things that (look) like law enforcement, or to assist
public health authorities by (enforcing) quarantines."

The government would also have the legal power to force people to be
immunized, although as a practical matter it is probably impossible,
O'Brien said. "What are you going to do, go into somebody's home and
tie them up?"

On the other hand, the government could take control of vaccine
supplies, even if it meant overriding state governors bent on
hoarding their in-state stockpiles, the panelists said.

The hypothetical exercise ended short of the president declaring
nationwide martial law, and without the arrest or trial of the
terrorists.

??? Do You Believe Me Now???
------------------------------------
<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/adolf.jpg>
Welcome To Yor New World Order!

Today I was listening to the radio, where the guy was telling us a bit about history. In 1839, I repeat 1839 the British were trying to swathe through Afghanistan trying to get it to submit before heading for the Khyber Pass and into India. Remember that in 1839 the British ruled the world! They sure as hell had a hard time with the Afghanis, which they dubbed Islamist fanatics (sound familiar?), anyway to cut a long story short, it's enough to say that the Brits never did manage to achieve their objective and by 1842 had lost 17000 troops, yes 17000 troops. Food for thought.

Originally posted by Time/02112
<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/mi5logo.gif>

??? Do You Believe Me Now???
------------------------------------
<Img Src=http://www.bilderberg.org/adolf.jpg>
Welcome To Yor New World Order!


Time,

I have read through your posts and the only thing I can come away with is that you border on the fanatical when it comes to a belief that there is some conspiracty behind the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, and that this conspiracy is aimed at some type of total domination of the American people at a minimum and the world if things work out right.

With this in mind I ask you the following question.

Given that the Anthrax attacks that have recently occured in the US seem to have utilized Anthrax from the US 's own biological weapons research and appear to follow the US 's recipe for Anthrax, do you believe that it is possible someone with beliefs similar to yours has done this in order to further their cause?

So am I too understand that due to the complexities of conspiracies within our political & economic infrastructures, that most of the sheepole are willing to lay down & die, sacrifice their constitutional rights under a democratic-republican, or socialistic society to those who would impose, impede, or threaten them by Illegal means of Inimante domain a such? If you as a “Free Society” so to speak do not believe that you are being fooled by the biggest scam of the century, than can only I feel pity for those who.

~~~~~~~~

Time, why does it matter to you what I or anyone else believes? Think about it... You've agreed (more or less) that everyone has their own perceptions. Thus, anyone--including you--wishing to claim anything can do so from now to eternity. It won't matter because they/you are never going to be believed by all. I won't be believed, you won't, nor will thecurly1... Furthermore, if so many are hopelessly fixed in their blindnesses, why bother? It's a little like beating your head up against a brick wall, isn't it?

I don't have much further to say, but if you are listening--if you are capable of understanding this much of someone else's view--please be advised that you are wasting your time by making the assumptions you have so far, and by trying to engage Counterbalance in a such a futile debate. It just ain't gonna happen, dude. :)

What's wrong with debate? Nothing. But what's the point of any debate or discussion when one party has already condemned the other, and has claimed (in various ways) to know what the "opposition" thinks, feels, believes, perceives--whatever. Rather a waste of time, Time...

For all of your (or other's) claims about really "knowing" what's going on out there, you're missing some very basic points about mankind and its history. About the nature of people in general. (About how to communicate when you want to be taken seriously. ) You're loaded for bear, but aiming at the wrong targets--and with the wrong ammo.

You are obviously a creative and intelligent individual. No need for me to make any unwarranted assumptions about that--you've amply demonstrated these qualities. Rather than assume that you will never be able to see the world, mankind--or America--in any other way, I choose to hope (hey, it's free!) that over time you will come to see more of the bigger picture, rather than persist in investing so much "time" and energy in a few very narrow and tainted views. After all, with so many people having so many different viewpoints, the views of those who support these conspiracy theories are but one part of the overall collection, right? (Rhetorical)

Have I assumed too much about your view? I don't think so. You've shared plenty of your anti-man outlook. Actions typically speak louder than words, but your words are clear for the most part, and your ability to say what you mean doesn't appear to be lacking.

~~~


Peace, Time...

Find a way to be at peace.


Counterbalance

People who sacrafice civil liberties for security deserve none.

Benjamin franklin.

Ironic.

<Img Src=http://www.foxnews.com/images/39672/1_12_221_top_latest_anthrax.jpg>
I'll concede with these thoughts in mind, we are living in the last days, and they are truly dangerous times to be living in indeed, wicked things have forever left their scars upon us, yet even more wicked things this way are comming, and in spite of our most noble attemps to combat against this hideous evil, I fear it will still come, and that the worst has yet to arrive.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31376,00.html

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CounslerCoffee

Learn your history before you decide to use it to prove a point because the US is all good.

I do not recall ANY country being all good. We all, as individuals and as nations have responsibilities.

The USA is a great country for many reasons - all of which I would hate to see diminished. I feel the same way about my nation - Great Britain.

BUT!

I am not blindly patriotic. The anti-vietnam peace movement was accused of being anti-american when it first emerged. But it actually proved to raise a consciousness that saved US soldiers in the end.

In a truly democratic country we should be able to openly criticise our governments and their actions - in fact thats part of whats being actually defended anyway.

To say that the USA has had nothing to do with causing any of the suffering in the world shows your own lack of understanding of history. I have signed petitions against some of the activities of your government and I will continue to do so if I don't agree with what they do - just as I will with my own.

If you are unaware of some of the heartless involvement of your countries leaders - go do some research of your own - you won't believe anything I say.

The trouble with a lot of the people on here mouthing their ( often macho ) opinions is that they seem to think that the only reason people would have anything against the USA is because they are born EVIL and that they simply like being terrorists. Its easier to digest that kind of cosy thinking = and it helps leaders to get on TV 'talking tough'.

The 'if you aren't with us you're against us' mentality and the simple 'good versus evil' ranting is just going to make the world an even more dangerous place than it already is.

The USA is capable of doing so much more. I wish it would do it.

They could start by kicking the doors down of a few rich florida-living drug-barons who made money drug-running and milking the arms support in places like central America for starters. yeah! Lets have a proper war on terrorism. And all the CIA members who had links with them.

Bush said terrorists had no regard for the 'sanctity of human life'.

If there was a billion dollars in a suitcase or an oil well in those Afghani villages - they would bomb more carefully than if there was a little girl near there. What comes first in value is so obvious.

Killing civilian people and children is morally wrong and will make you more enemies - guaranteed. How many is the USA prepared to kill?

Stop funding terrorism.
Stop arming terrorists.
Stop training terrorists.
Stop giving terrorists reasons to exist.
Then we might we get less hassle from them.
And less tragedy.

Down with Osamar Bin Laden.
Down with US and UK terrorist supporters.
Down with bombing people who are just trying to feed their kids.
Down with the arms trade.
Down with blind and stupid, self-destructive patriotism.

Tell these guys they shoiuld be nominated for the FICTION Pulitzer prize.

No, I still don't believe you. I don't believe these are credible sources, about the infiltration, and et cetra.

Let's get real the gov't would do this to their own people.

P.S. Time you never replied my past comment: if these groups are so powerful and indeed do exist, why would they let a small government like the Taliban dictate their policy, i.e. the supposed pipeline.

After all you claim these guys have control over the most powerful nations on Earth.

You see now that the theory has unraveled itself.

and in spite of our most noble attemps to combat against this hideous evil, I fear it will still come, and that the worst has yet to arrive.

~~~

Yet what good will it do anyone to live their Life in fear? Fear can be like a pair of 'clip-on' shades for one's eye-glasses, for one's view. Tinting and tainting. How you see things, how you digest it all, how you handle it, how you 'react' to it...

If we're in our last days I prefer to fill mine with finer thoughts, even while remaining realistic. When my time to die comes, I hope my heart and mind are not cluttered with fear, but with the knowledge that I lived Life to the fullest and by my own standards.

Whoever originally came up with this quote spoke truth:

"There is nothing to fear but fear itself."



~~~

Apologies for the interruption.

Carry on,


Counterbalance

I think you will find that it is Russia that want's the pipeline,so that it can sell its oil,& the Saudi's have been backing the Talliban as they do not want the pipeline,as it would bring down the price of there oil.
Nothing to do with America,as all of the anti party would like us to believe.
:D :D :D :D

Have a look at this!
http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2001/10/29/f126.raw.html
:( :(

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

Franklin D. Roosevelt, First inaugural address

Courtesy of: http://www.quoteland.com/

Helloween

We began carpet bombing of Taliban locations in Afghanistan. The next step will be heavier troop movement of U.S./UK military personnel. Rooting them out in their caves and tunnels. Now we will see the resolve of the Taliban and there supporters. Now we will see who believes in what they stand for!

I see a lot of folks with doubts as to what our millatry objectives are in afganistan, i also see a few blind patriots in the group too.
If you think america is without sin then your mind is already lost to the propaganda machine and nothing or noone can help you.
If your mind is open to the idea that every nation on earth has commited atrocities then you are more likly to stumble upon the truth.
Was that time fellow implying that america was behind the terror attacks of sept11?
That is a silly idea isnt it?
Did someone say missile defense program?

Dont jump on me yet folks im only trying to broaden your view on such things, so if we turned this conflic around and afganistan was the powerful nation and america was poor and without food/water/shelter how would americans react to afgani planes dropping food with huge afgan flags all over it?

Sorry did someone say humiliating?

Let me put something of my view across, the objective lined out by both UK and US governments is to displace power from a country's standing government, fair enough but what are you going to replace it with?
The norther alliance?
If they take power in afganistan the region will never see peace as muslims from other factions (the taliban but to name one) will see it as a western invastion on there soil (much as americans saw the destruction of the WTC as a personnal attack) and will fight to the last man left alive to take it back.
When they eventually kill ossma bin ladden there going to have to do the biggest propoganda event of all time to stop the guy becoming a myrta.
Lets face it that guy will never stand trial for the terror attacks of september the 11th just in case an international tribunal finds him "not gulity".
This all comes around again and we sat talking about "due process" which is either used or not used depending on weather it suites the governments needs.
Sorry did someone say democracy?