Are star constellations a map of atoms?
Does anyone have any thoughts on this.

Cheers

stars are flaming balls of gas and fire, with a nuclear core, and yes, they do have atoms, but they are not maps of atoms, if they were, that would mean that either anotehr intellegent race made stars, so instead of haveing the 'death star' they had the 'life star' and made them, but u also ahve to think that stars arnt formed like that, that from almost amywere else in the galexy they would look totally different, each star is trillions of light years away from each other, backwors or forwords, sisde to side, up or down, different depth perception, becasue the onces in that are farther away, are bigger, so that they seem to be the same size, and the constellations are maps of people minds in a sence, who accually thought that orion looks like a guy, it might look like a belt, but not a hunter dude, and atoms dont look like dippers. so i think your theory is wrong!

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

[This message has been edited by dexter (edited July 07, 2000).]

Orion is made up of 7 stars. Elements such as water is made up of 3 molecules. I think there is a link

The actual constellation of orion is made up of 7 stars (I think). So that particular constellation could represent a atom which is made up of different molecules e.g. H20 (I know this isn't made up of 7 atoms)

Hi Epitectus,

Well, Orion might remind you of some sort of molecule, but there are also loads of other constellations that just are... nothing :).

As Dexter said, constellations are products of the mind of man, it has nothing physical. You have to remember that the stars we see in the sky, are at alot of different distances. So to us, it might seem that the three stars forming Orion's belt are close together, while in fact one star could be several parsecs further than another (I don't know the exact figures by heart). The two-dimensional representation we give to the constellations is not natural nor physical, so I really can't see any reason to seek for a correlation with atom "maps" here.

Furthermore, constellations are constantly changing due to the so called "eigen movement" of the stars. The galaxy spirals around, but stars closer to the center spiral faster than ones farther out in the arms (this is called differential rotation). The constellation Ursa Major (Great Bear) will totally be deformed in 30000 years or so. Since atoms don't change form (well, H20 will remain H20 for the days of eternity to come, if nothing happens to it ofcourse) so once more, I don't see how constellations can represent atom maps.

And finally, there is no such thing as one formation of a molecule. Molecules like Benzene have 6 or 7 different configurations, and there is no single molecule that has exactly one of those configurations (it's a mix of all of them at the same time).

Bye!

Crisp


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"The best thing you can become in life is yourself" -- M. Eyskens.

[This message has been edited by Crisp (edited July 15, 2000).]

Originally posted by dexter:

when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages



When you joined this board, you agreed "through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."


I for one find the above tag line hateful, harassing, obscene, and profane!

Originally posted by Epitectus:
Orion is made up of 7 stars. Elements such as water is made up of 3 molecules. I think there is a link

My god you are right ! And a week has also seven days, and there are seven arms to the Jewish candle what more do you want for link ? ;)

Lenny:

"...or otherwise violative of any law."

Dexter's tagline (when christianity ruled the world it was called dark ages) may be offensive to YOU, but it does not violate any laws. Hence it is permitted on this BBS.

It does, however, happen to be inaccurate. During Dark Ages Christianity did not "rule the world". It ruled a small and (at the time) very backward area known as Europe. The only time when Christianity could be reasonably said to "have ruled the world" was few decades in the second half of 19th Century, when China, India, and Ottoman Empire all knuckled down to Europeans.

Plato:

Jewish candle (menorah) has nine arms, not seven.

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When you joined this board, you agreed "through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."
-----------------------

i dont remember that, though i started posting almost a year ago, a lot longer than this month ago (does that make sense???) but still, that is my beileif, it is a quote, i may consider the quote "damned if you do, dmaned if you dont offencive, but you may not, i may consider god offensive, and you might not, i may consider the fact that you beileive stars are gass, and not dust particles orbiting the earth as well as the sun to be offencive, but my quote is not offensive to everyone, jsut everyone that is weekminded, and beileives in god, and follows that religion!?!





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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

[This message has been edited by dexter (edited July 17, 2000).]

Originally posted by dexter:

i dont remember that, though i started posting almost a year ago, a lot longer than this month ago (does that make sense???) but still, that is my beileif, it is a quote, i may consider the quote "damned if you do, dmaned if you dont offencive, but you may not, i may consider god offensive, and you might not, i may consider the fact that you beileive stars are gass, and not dust particles orbiting the earth as well as the sun to be offencive, but my quote is not offensive to everyone,
jsut everyone that is weekminded, and beileives in god, and follows that religion!?!

Weak-minded like Isaac Newton, J.S. Bach, George Washington, C.S Lewis, John Paul II? (The Pope BTW speaks five languages fluently and reads and writes in ten more - you apparently have a problem with one!)

I know several Christians personally who are not weak-minded and who would be offended by your "quote".

................................

Angel of Peace Prayer

Most Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences whereby He is offended. And through the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.


[This message has been edited by Lenny (edited July 18, 2000).]

Well in order for stars to be a map of atoms, they would have to be intertwined with all the other atoms in the universe but that can not happen because the universe in infininte. A map is not a map until it had included every possable bit of information that can be acsessed. Unfortuantley we hardly know anything of the universe. So therefore I think it is impossable to have stars be the maps of atoms. If you are using a religon to explain this then think this: I feel that religon is made up by those who need someone to explain everything on. Humans themselves hate to thik that they do not know the answer to a question. Also people need someone to look upon as a better. Someone they can say did this or did that. Someone a person can try to be like. So take that into consideration because I read many replies to the main thoery here and most of them have religon involved. If you have an argument with this, e-mail me at granddruid@ignmail.com.

[This message has been edited by Arch Druid (edited July 18, 2000).]

i dont think you understand what i mean buy weekminded, i have a friend, a hard core christian, and he is hella smart, gets sraight A's but has no common sense. week minded is not what you dont know, its what you dont see. week minded people are those that dont have a open mind, they beileive in one thing, and in this case its christianity, they cant think what is outside of what they think..... only that what they think is right, and everything else is worng, no questions asked!!!!

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (yahoo sn: rancid242)

A tribe in the depths of a jungle came across
a jeep parked and running. they studied it closely and pondered where it could have came from. they have never witnessed anyone or thing more intelligent than themselves. thus they concluded that rain water must have erroded away this stone into such a shape and that these small vines which cause it to run must have just fallen into place and by a massive miracle it all fell together to run on its own. PARABBLE. We have all the evidence that we need to conclude that a more intelligent being created us and this world and the universe. there is no way that all this was created by chance, it had to have been thought out and built. Thus there IS a God almighty.
Lenny I laughed my head off at your comment about weak minded christians. Your right on.

alright, but you should open your eyes to the facts that there is no god, (or at leaste one that doesn give a shit) 1.) why is a almighty god, taht knows who is going to hell, and who is gonna live, and said that we wont remember the earth after we die, still make us live this horrable life?? if we cant remember it, and he knows were were going??? 2.) why make us suffer??? why make his most faithful die wreched deaths at the stake? why kill his own son when he couldve jsut snapped and said, alright, and made us act liek he wantedf us too.
and dont give me that "because he loves us" bull shit, open your eyes, look around, bosnia, isriel, everything, dont jsut look at your life, look whasts going on around you!

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (yahoo sn: rancid242)

Originally posted by dexter:
week minded people are those that dont have a open mind, they beileive in one thing, and in this case its christianity, they cant think what is outside of what they think


By your definition you must also be “week minded”. I see no openness on your part to EVEN CONSIDER the possibility of a higher power. I don’t know you or your Christian friend, but I suspect you are every bit as dogmatic as he. It has always seemed curious to me that most atheists are more “zealous” than many Christians. Those of us who believe in the God of the Bible see this as evidence of the existence of a literal “Devil”. It is my personal conviction that non-believers are influenced (and in extreme instances, controlled) by demonic powers just as The Holy Spirit influences true Christians. This is not to say Dexter that all your actions are evil or all my actions are good. You may be a very good and kind person who cares for the needs of humanity, as a matter of fact God may have worked through you. In the same way, some of my spiteful remarks in this forum are evidence that the evil one can influence even devout Christians.

All that is really beyond the point of my complaint however. It was your signature line that offended me, not the content of your message. If you choose to offend rather than show a little kindness, that is your right. It is absolutely pointless to argue over the existence or non-existence of God. I see evidence in my own life that he does exist and I accept it as a matter of faith. If you choose to not believe, that is your problem not mine. I am a firm believer that there are no atheists after death, but then it will be too late to make amends.

Dexter, why don’t we keep our discussion in this forum to the topic of Astronomy? You might be surprised to learn that we probably agree on that subject. The Bible is not a science textbook. It is a salvation textbook. I would no more expect to find an explanation on the origin of the universe in the Bible than I would expect to find a way to God in Darwin’s “Origin of the Species”. I see no conflict between religion and science. No honest scientist would say that he has all the answers concerning the universe. The creation story in the Bible is all about God’s caring for mankind, not an explicite recipe for creating man.

The only differences you and I have concerning the universe is that I believe in an invisible “spiritual” universe that parallels the natural one we can see. What you say we limit our discussion to the one we can see? I will overlook your “dark ages” remark if you forgive me for my pointed remarks about your language skills.

.................

The sky is not the limit, nor are the stars.




[This message has been edited by Lenny (edited July 21, 2000).]

Pardon me, but I think it's going to snow...

No way, the sun is shining !

Sh*g it!! And here I am, dumb little me thinking this was the 'General Astronomy' section.

**Smack, smack on my knuckles**

We have all the evidence that we need to conclude that a more intelligent being created us and this world and the universe.

You fool! Thats about the most childish statment i've ever heard.


there is no way that all this was created by chance, it had to have been thought out and built. Thus there IS a God almighty.

hahaha, your funny!!!!!!!!!! hahahah LOL!

Hey Folks:
I just came in on the tale end of this debate, and I must say parts of it are quite amusing.The universe did not happen by chance and all this chaos we see in it is really sublime order at it's best.
As far as christianity ruling the world and keeping us in the dark ages, heres my opinion. The world which they did rule at that time was kept in the dark ages. Printing presses were forbidden because they threatened the control the church had on the dissemination of knowledge, and the source of knowledge.New and radical scientific theories were a way of getting yourself burned at the stake.Through their spred of paranoia and mis-information massive witch hunts were commonplace through out christiandom. May be we even would be at the interstellar traveling mode right now if not for the catholics and there Dogmatic ways.
The damn christians formed a religion about a man, intead of what he was teaching.Mis interpreted alot of what he said, and managed to destroy much scientific knowledge found by them in the new world.Anything they came across that did not fit their paradym, they desroyed. Where would we be today, is alot better off without the crap they set into motion in Gods name. By the way God does exist, but not to fit into anyones particular view.
And there is certainly no place called HELL. either.

Paul/Machiaventa :p: :p: :p:

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
The damn christians

Wrong, everybody else is damned. ;)

BTW Paul: What's a nice Urantian like you doing with such a "Christian" name?

The atomic analogy was used quite often to describe the solar systems functioning,because there are similar general facts that make it very practical:the core(nucleus)is bigger and heavier than the orbiting particles separated,it attracts them by a fundamental force(gravity and electromagnetic),they orbit the core in circle-like orbits,and at a remarkably comparable distances(about 10.000 nuclear diameters,radius;about 15.000 million kilometers,radius):to add to this,has some inherent charm and harmony to see the big and the tiny working in similar way;I like the comparison.
Regarding to the God´s issue,its not the same charge of proving to both sides:to prove something is a way to establish something as real;you cant prove that something is not,would be a contradiction;so are the ones who claim that there´s a creator who have to prove it real.
In my opinion,the more important is a thing,the more great,more noticeable,more undoubtful it is;this is how we can say that is important,because it affects us importantly and unambiguously;besides the history of the universe shows us that things came from the simplest to go to more complicated forms,Gods idea seems to be totally the opposite,the more organized being precedes the most simple things...I believe that goodness is the way;if I obey the law,how can I be judged as a trespasser?,not even we humans do such an injustice.

Hi Gaston,


The atomic analogy was used quite often to describe the solar systems functioning,because there are similar general facts that make it very practical.

Though luck, it's all a pure coincidence! There are trillions of other starsystems (like our own solar system with a sun and planets) that do not have these "remarkable resemblences".


the core(nucleus)is bigger and heavier than the orbiting particles separated

In case of an atom, some people would argue that the "orbiting particles" are not seperated but rather a uniform spherical distribution of charge (I even believe this was mentioned in a previous thread). It's just a matter of who you want to believe :). Personally I don't share this opinion though (at the moment I'll stick for the quantummechanical descriptions). However, it is dangerous to speak of "orbiting particles" (see next reply)


... they orbit the core in circle-like orbits...

In the classical atom model (By Niels Bohr), yes. In more modern quantummechanical models: no. Electron orbits are very peculiar: they can be spherically symmetric (s-orbitals), but there are loads of other orbit types aswel (p orbitals, which are completely different) and there are loads of different "hybridisation" orbitals (where s & p orbitals "melt" together to form something completely different; eg. sp, sp2, sp3 orbitals). Neither of those orbital types have anything in common with the solar system.

Furthermore, electrons themselves are not small spheres with a tiny mass and a bit of charge; they are thought to be "cigar" shaped (why i dont know exactly; this was only mentioned to me in a conversation with someone who knows what he is talking about ;)).

Besides, the planets of the solar system more or less move in one plane (the ecliptic); this also doesn't apply to atoms and electron distributions as these are all 3 dimensional in nature.

I have to admit that a while ago (before studying quantummechanics), I also believed in the classical atommodel, and I also found it very nice to see how the universe was created with nuclei being orbited by "satelites" (atom -> solar system -> galaxy -> universe). But nowadays we already know enough about the universe and atoms to know for sure that this is not the case.

Bye!

Crisp


------------------
"The best thing you can become in life is yourself" -- M. Eyskens.

Hi,Crisp,nice to meet you...
I referred to the atomic model as a suitable analogy,didn´t try to imply a direct connection...There are differences of course,but in general,in my opinion, still works... I mentioned that the core is heavier than the external particles,and the mass of the protons and neutrons is very far superior than that of electrons;the nucleus is composed by a pack of fundamental particles togheter giving it bigger size than that of the electrons;they are indeed attracted to the core by a fundamental force(electromagnetic);there are objects orbiting the son as comets whose orbits are totally different from the ecliptic plane,and are very excentrical (elliptic),but,in any case,(as electrons) they do orbit the core and they are part of the solar sistem as well,and the asterois and meteorites have random shapes(including cigar-like ones),and are part of the solar system too;all the other one star stellar systems (that I kwnow)operate more or less the same;but I would like to repeat that I put this as a general comparison,nothing else...Bye,talk you later.

[This message has been edited by Gaston (edited August 23, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gaston (edited August 23, 2000).]

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quote from Lenny (above)

"It is my personal conviction that non-believers are influenced (and in extreme instances, controlled) by demonic powers just as The Holy Spirit influences true Christians"
----------------

You mean like Ghandi??????

So basically if I don't believe in YOUR religion I must be possessed/controled by figments of YOUR imagination....hmmmmm, rational argument :)

[This message has been edited by Rambler (edited August 23, 2000).]

Crisp, A point you forgot to mention is that if benzene can be made up of 6 of 7 different molecules there maybe stars positioned differently in the solar system as a set of co-ordinates replicating another way of making benzene. The Cerus constellation position of its stars looks a bit like a hydrocarbon (the stars position) and there are many different types of hydrocarbons. As you said

" And finally, there is no such thing as one formation of a molecule. Molecules like Benzene have 6 or 7 different configurations, and there is no single molecule that has exactly one of those configurations (it's a mix of all of them at the same time)"

Therefore there may be different constellations/systems that represent benzene as a constellations/system that are not identical.

Originally posted by dexter:
alright, but you should open your eyes to the facts that there is no god, (or at leaste one that doesn give a shit) 1.) why is a almighty god, taht knows who is going to hell, and who is gonna live, and said that we wont remember the earth after we die, still make us live this horrable life?? if we cant remember it, and he knows were were going??? 2.) why make us suffer??? why make his most faithful die wreched deaths at the stake? why kill his own son when he couldve jsut snapped and said, alright, and made us act liek he wantedf us too.
and dont give me that "because he loves us" bull shit, open your eyes, look around, bosnia, isriel, everything, dont jsut look at your life, look whasts going on around you!





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Loone

Hi there! Happy Thanksgivings!

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Loone

Originally posted by dexter:
stars are flaming balls of gas and fire, with a nuclear core, and yes, they do have atoms, but they are not maps of atoms, if they were, that would mean that either anotehr intellegent race made stars,("God the Father is the only one that can create the stars and the heavens !") so instead of haveing the 'death star' they had the 'life star' and made them, but u also ahve to think that stars arnt formed like that, that from almost amywere else in the galexy they would look totally different, each star is trillions of light years away from each other, backwors or forwords, sisde to side, up or down, different depth perception, becasue the onces in that are farther away, are bigger, so that they seem to be the same size, and the constellations are maps of people minds in a sence, who accually thought that orion looks like a guy, it might look like a belt, but not a hunter dude, and atoms dont look like dippers. so i think your theory is wrong!


"For The Heavens Declair the Glory of God!"

Originally posted by dexter:
stars are flaming balls of gas and fire, with a nuclear core, and yes, they do have atoms, but they are not maps of atoms, if they were, that would mean that either anotehr intellegent race made stars, so instead of haveing the 'death star' they had the 'life star' and made them, but u also ahve to think that stars arnt formed like that, that from almost amywere else in the galexy they would look totally different, each star is trillions of light years away from each other, backwors or forwords, sisde to side, up or down, different depth perception, becasue the onces in that are farther away, are bigger, so that they seem to be the same size, and the constellations are maps of people minds in a sence, who accually thought that orion looks like a guy, it might look like a belt, but not a hunter dude, and atoms dont look like dippers. so i think your theory is wrong!





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Loone

Originally posted by Loone:


Dexter, God is LOVE!! Jesus is the son of God! , Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in Heaven, making intersecions for the saints ! Jesus loves Dexter, not the sins.



------------------
Loone

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
Hey Folks:
I just came in on the tale end of this debate, and I must say parts of it are quite amusing.The universe did not happen by chance and all this chaos we see in it is really sublime order at it's best.
As far as christianity ruling the world and keeping us in the dark ages, heres my opinion. The world which they did rule at that time was kept in the dark ages. Printing presses were forbidden because they threatened the control the church had on the dissemination of knowledge, and the source of knowledge.New and radical scientific theories were a way of getting yourself burned at the stake.Through their spred of paranoia and mis-information massive witch hunts were commonplace through out christiandom. May be we even would be at the interstellar traveling mode right now if not for the catholics and there Dogmatic ways.
The damn christians formed a religion about a man, intead of what he was teaching.Mis interpreted alot of what he said, and managed to destroy much scientific knowledge found by them in the new world.Anything they came across that did not fit their paradym, they desroyed. Where would we be today, is alot better off without the crap they set into motion in Gods name. By the way God does exist, but not to fit into anyones particular view.
And there is certainly no place called HELL. either.Wronge!! There is,....and Jesus Saves!!

Paul/Machiaventa :p: :p: :p:There IS, and you still going! Jesus Saves!



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Loone

Wow...star maps, atoms, and God...fun topic. Much like the internal workings of atoms, we have yet to see God. Both are subjected to tests which bring them within our grasp, making them more substantial for human perception. For the scientist, the atom bomb and man-made molecules is clear proof that he understands the atom; for the faithful, the stars, earth, life, and an answered prayer are equal proof that God exists (I'm still waiting for that first million, God).

As for the star maps and molecules--pull out your chemistry set. How would you determine the atom combinations and the process(es) for linking them by simply using a star map? Anyway, it's all Greek Mythology. So there really wouldn't be any point.

Interesting idea though.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited September 23, 2000).]

What about dark matter?
Is this evidence that star systems are atoms and molecules?
If dark matter is the neutrons and protons is the stars,
maybe we are riding high on electrons.

(Dark matter could equal neutrons and the rest protons).
.ps sorry to bring this up again after 10 years of phosphorescence.

Is this evidence that star systems are atoms and molecules?
No.

Necromancing a ten year old piece of nonsense? Please.

Thread closed and sent to the cesspool.