The problem of evil is one of the most troublesome problems that faces anyone that believes that there exists an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful God who created the world we inhabit.

premise 1. An all good, all knowing, and all powerful God exists

2. There exists evil in the world

The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)

From this arguement many(I included) believe that it is quite unreasonable and illogical to believe in God as we know him.

But if anyone thinks that they can give a good objection to this arguement I would be quite interested, as would many others

oh boy here it comes. my bet is that truthseeker goes nutz!

shit wesmorris, that was an extremely fast reply

whos this truthseeker character?? a preacher????? cause they tend to make my ears bleed

That argument never really caught on with me.

I have seen it fairly competently refuted by theists and atheists alike, in several differnt ways.

Me, personally?
I think evil is not an absolute.
It is an abstract idea.
It is a comparative term.
Like light and dark.

Darkness is only, in effect, a degree of light.

Without darkness we wouldn't know what light is and vice versa.

(is this making sense to anyone but me?)

Therefore, evil is basically just a degree of good.

(I don't usually edit posts after someone has already replied, but I forgot to add that last sentence)

I think the general method of weaseling out of that argument is to play semantics with the definition of god. Every theist will have their own interpretation thereof and start up some weak argument to limit the scope of god's power due to some emotional insight they've had of god. ack.

**darts out from behind a bush**

Contradictions in the Nature of God (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11482)

**runs away**

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
The problem of evil is one of the most troublesome problems that faces anyone that believes that there exists an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful God who created the world we inhabit.

premise 1. An all good, all knowing, and all powerful God exists

2. There exists evil in the world

The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)

From this arguement many(I included) believe that it is quite unreasonable and illogical to believe in God as we know him.

But if anyone thinks that they can give a good objection to this arguement I would be quite interested, as would many others

This is a material world, a phenomenal world, this means everything has a beginning and an end or at least everything is constantly changing. Evil is one side of the coin as is darkness, in relation to good or light, this is nature, i don't have to agree with you, nor you me, we have certain amount of freedom to draw our conclusions.
The All-Powerfull God, although integral to the creation, maintainence and destruction of this cosmic manifestation, plays a personal part in it, only when called on by His real devoted servants, otherwise it is left to what could be described as His universal government, who themselves are material, to govern as they see fit. God, in no scripture is described as being material, in all scripture it states that God has a form, but this form is not subject to the onslaught or the illusion of material nature, it is described as being eternal and spiritual (pure consciousness), and full of knowledge.
So regardless of whether you believe this or not, that is the description given to some degree or other, in all scriptures, and therefore you point is invalid, unless you can show me where GOD is mentioned as having a material body.
If you say. There is no evidence to support this, then your point is still invalid. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

After following Nebula's link and reading Tiassa's response, I contend that there's a good deal of evidence to back up my assertion above about the weaseling and the business.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
This is a material world, a phenomenal world, this means everything has a beginning and an end or at least everything is constantly changing. Evil is one side of the coin as is darkness, in relation to good or light, this is nature, i don't have to agree with you, nor you me, we have certain amount of freedom to draw our conclusions.

Okay, I can sort of buy that, at least I don't feel it neccesary to argue.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena

The All-Powerfull God, although integral to the creation, maintainence and destruction of this cosmic manifestation, plays a personal part in it, only when called on by His real devoted servants, otherwise it is left to what could be described as His universal government, who themselves are material, to govern as they see fit.

How convenient for his real devoted servants. Don't you think that sounds kind of uh.. well, retarded? I mean, what? I know there's no evidence to back up your claim so you just believe it? Okay "it seemed right" to you? Sure, whatever you have to tell yourself. How is it that you think your knowledge of "god" is superior to mine? Because of your "scripture"? Why not read a science book? I think my physics book is a much more important book than the bible, and would label it "scripture" if I felt like it at any given time... but your really boring old book is superior eh? Whatever.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena

God, in no scripture is described as being material, in all scripture it states that God has a form, but this form is not subject to the onslaught or the illusion of material nature, it is described as being eternal and spiritual (pure consciousness), and full of knowledge.

Uh-huh. Why is it that you think your "scripture" has any bearing on reality?

Originally posted by Jan Ardena

So regardless of whether you believe this or not, that is the description given to some degree or other, in all scriptures, and therefore you point is invalid, unless you can show me where GOD is mentioned as having a material body.

Why, if it said that somewhere.... would you believe it? Okay watch: "you are a pink fluffy bunny". Are you a pink fluffy bunny? I want in on some of this scripture writing action. Maybe I could get a bunch of chicks like that. It woudl be sweet. "You think wesley is good. Huge c**k. You like huge wesley c**k". You think I should try that? I doubt it would work. I must not have any scripture type skills.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena

If you say. There is no evidence to support this, then your point is still invalid. :)

Translation: "If you say I'm brainwashed I'll insist that I'm not." I'm sorry Jan, but that's simply ridiculous. You give your silly book and the words of those who continuously indoctrinate you into your cult (including yourself) too much credence. It's really quite silly you know.

I'll throw in my two cents.

God has an unimaginable wrath and he's not afraid to use it. He loves like a father. He has to punish sin. The old testement shares several instances where God lashed out on sin. But he has not revealed himself in anger in the past 2,000 years because his son has payed for sin. Our conviction and consequences are payment for our sin, but if this world was perfect and there was no evil then we probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with God. But God wants to be glorified and worshipped, he makes something for us to run from so that we have to humble ourselves in order to realize that he is our only hope.

Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Gomer
Just my opinion.

Sounds more like cult propaganda to me.

Why does God want to be glorified? is he not complete without our worshipping him? Sounds like an evil tyrant to me.

I think its important not to give a supreme being human like qualities. ex- the thirst for power. Why would a perfect being NEED worshipping or create a world where worshipping him would be a necessary element?

Sounds like an insecure being to me, more like another ill attempt by humans to justify an illogical belief. Basically a supreme being would not need to feed off of our praise, or have us praise in the first place

Wes,


How convenient for his real devoted servants. Don't you think that sounds kind of uh.. well, retarded? I mean, what? I know there's no evidence to back up your claim so you just believe it? Okay "it seemed right" to you? Sure, whatever you have to tell yourself. How is it that you think your knowledge of "god" is superior to mine? Because of your "scripture"? Why not read a science book? I think my physics book is a much more important book than the bible, and would label it "scripture" if I felt like it at any given time... but your really boring old book is superior eh? Whatever.

Wes, you have not understood my point. When we talk of an All-Powerfull God, we are talking about God who is described in the scriptures, are we not? It doesn’t matter whether you believe in Him or not, and I am not arguing as to whether He exists or not, or which religion is better or worse. The point is, His character is described in all scriptures. So, the argument that MooseKnuckle put foreward, included a description of God which is consistent in all religions, namely All-Powerfull, but the conclusion he came to, *“From this arguement many(I included) believe that it is quite unreasonable and illogical to believe in God as we know him.* was invalid, because he didn’t take into consideration, Gods Absolutness, which sets Him apart from material nature, as explained in varying degrees, in every scripture, it seems he describes God in the way he sees Him as opposed to the way He is described.
If we were to have a discussion about a “Star Wars” movie, wouldn’t you find it strange if I only talked about the things I want, and disregard the thing I don’t?


Uh-huh. Why is it that you think your "scripture" has any bearing on reality?

Read my post again, you will note that I said “all scripture”, and apart from that, your totally off the mark.


Why, if it said that somewhere.... would you believe it?

Try and understand, as far as my reply goes, belief is not the issue. Whether you believe or not, the character and attributes of God, be He real or unreal, are consistent in every scripture, so if we are to discuss the character of God, then we can only find such information in the scriptures, as the threadstarter didn’t do that, his conclusions are doomed before he even starts.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
Why does God want to be glorified? is he not complete without our worshipping him? Sounds like an evil tyrant to me.

I think its important not to give a supreme being human like qualities. ex- the thirst for power. Why would a perfect being NEED worshipping or create a world where worshipping him would be a necessary element?

Sounds like an insecure being to me, more like another ill attempt by humans to justify an illogical belief. Basically a supreme being would not need to feed off of our praise, or have us praise in the first place

Sounds like you've already made your mind up. One question though; why did you start this thread?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Try and understand, as far as my reply goes, belief is not the issue. Whether you believe or not, the character and attributes of God, be He real or unreal, are consistent in every scripture, so if we are to discuss the character of God, then we can only find such information in the scriptures, as the threadstarter didn’t do that, his conclusions are doomed before he even starts.
Love

Jan Ardena.

Don't you think you're changing the rules. He defined his "god". You redefined it did you not? Shouldn't you work with what he gave rather than what you think he should have given? His claim is consistent in and of itself, though it may not have any bearing on the scripture or religious interpretation of choice.

Originally posted by wesmorris
Don't you think you're changing the rules. He defined his "god". You redefined it did you not? Shouldn't you work with what he gave rather than what you think he should have given? His claim is consistent in and of itself, though it may not have any bearing on the scripture or religious interpretation of choice.

Then what's the point of a discussion, and what is his source for his explanation of God, is it just inside his head??? :rolleyes:

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Then what's the point of a discussion, and what is his source for his explanation of God, is it just inside his head??? :rolleyes:

Love

Jan Ardena.

He gave a hypothetical scenario.

Oh, and where else does "god" exist.. rather than inside people's heads eh? You cannot demostrate otherwise, so why do you argue?

Well my personal feelings on the whole good/bad issue is this:

If i act in an evil manner i end up burning in hell for eternity. Personally i think that's boring. If you need to endure something long enough it soon becomes pointless.

If i act all good and loving i get to spend an eternity playing the harp. After a very short perood of time that will become boring and pointless also.

Instead of living forever or burning forever i just prefer being a mortal and enjoying my life while i have it. Once i'm all done i can just sit in the ground as a skeleton, without thoughts, knowledge or anything else. I do not need to worship a 'possible' god, because frankly i dont want eternal life. Instead i just spend time appreciating all that i have and all that i can accomplish.

"Sounds like you've already made your mind up. One question though; why did you start this thread?"

Was I not responding to responses???? I was following up on someone else's suggestions, i dont see what the problem is here

"When we talk of an All-Powerfull God, we are talking about God who is described in the scriptures, are we not? It doesn’t matter whether you believe in Him or not, and I am not arguing as to whether He exists or not, or which religion is better or worse. The point is, His character is described in all scriptures"

Ok so here you say that I gave the description of a god who is described in the scriptures, (all-powerfull, etc) ok note taken..............

"so if we are to discuss the character of God, then we can only find such information in the scriptures, as the threadstarter didn’t do that, his conclusions are doomed before he even starts."

Now you blatantly contradict yourself

Good response Snake. I would like an eternal afterlife though, but I know that there is none, so I will join you in the decompositon process

hahahah, playing harp

I must say gentlemen, Moose and Snake, that it is wiser to realize that there is no knowledge of an afterlife, rather than "there is no afterlife". I do not believe there IS, I don't believe there isn't either. I believe that while more sensible, it is just as presumptuous to state that you "know there is no afterlife" as it is to say "you get 72 virgins and an infinite supply of cuban cigars". There is no convincing evidence either way since the nature of consciousness is not understood. Now, if you're just theorizing, that's different and more power to you.. but to say "I know this" about that which you cannot know is not a reasonable position.

I didnt say there wasnt.

Perhaps you missed the point of my post which was i don't actually want eternal life and i dont want to burn in hell. Frankly i consider the prospects of doing either as extremely pointless.

Consider this.....

You've been burning in hell for the past 10 millennium.... It wouldn't even be painful anymore and, in my opinion, just an excercise in futility.

The reverse side of the coin.....

You've been living it up with eternal life for the past 10 millennium. Everything that can be said has been said, everything that can be learnt has been learnt. All you can do now is..... well.... nothing. I guess you could rebel in which case you'd be sent to hell to burn for eternity, but eventually you end up in exactly the same position.

My point therefore is that if there is and i have the choice i'd rather just enjoy my life while i have it, then when i'm dead i'd just like to be dead. Do i have that choice or must it be eternal life/eternal damnation?

As you should now be able to see, i have not stated there is no afterlife, (apology accepted in advance), but have merely stated if there is i'd rather not subscribe to it.

First of all: Muhbad.

This was the point here:

Originally posted by SnakeLord

Frankly i consider the prospects of doing either as extremely pointless.

and I was being a bit presumptuous. Moose had said it and I was thinking you had too, my bad. I should only refute someone's claim when I've quoted it directly such that I don't think you said something you didn't.

Oh, and yeah, I got your point the first time, I just thought you'd said "and I know" blah blah. I was wrong, pardon and thanks for accepting the pardons ahead of time.

I mostly agree with you regarding your assessment of a potential afterlife, but I believe it pertinent to note that "time" in the sense that we know it as living people... wouldn't likely be the same in some kind of "afterlife".. which again I find no compelling evidence of, only warm and fuzzy theories of no real merit. The theory of "you're dead and gone...... buh-bye" certainly has merit, but is no fun if you're into the 7394 recyclable and perpetual virgins and all the cool drugs in the afterlife and whatnot...... :)

*giggle*

You know......... you've just completely and totally changed my stance on things.

*Praise the Lord*

Bring on the afterlife!! :D

You're cracking me up man. Hehe. LOL. Stop it, I'm trying to talk down to the theists here and you're cracking me all up!!!!!!

Oh fuck, dude. Okay. Back to bashing theism.

The only problem i can drag from this scenario are Gods rules on certain things.

Im pretty sure if we all sat down getting wildly screwed, smoking pot and watching old episodes of the simpsons we'd be sent to hell pretty swiftly.

As such our only real alternative in our eternal life is to make musical atrocities with our harps, fly about and play frisbee with our halos.

As such i concur that i'd rather just be dead.

Originally posted by SnakeLord
Im pretty sure if we all sat down getting wildly screwed, smoking pot and watching old episodes of the simpsons we'd be sent to hell pretty swiftly.


SHIT!!!!
There goes my Saturday night!

Actually, that would be my version of Heaven.

Oh.... sorry One_Raven but you've been a sinner. As such God has a much worse eternal life for you....He asked me to tell you so here goes:

You have been sentenced to an eternity of reading posts made by The Visitor.

Man that's worse than burning forever in my opinion :D

Originally posted by one_raven
SHIT!!!!
There goes my Saturday night!

Actually, that would be my version of Heaven.

What the hell, I'm in. :) Does one of you guys have a pool table?

Originally posted by wesmorris
What the hell, I'm in. :) Does one of you guys have a pool table?

Sorry, man.
But the "getting wildly screwed" part leaves you out of my plans.
You can come by for weed and The Simpsons afterwards, though.
I have the first season on DVD and I just picked up a quarter ounce of some really prime Hydro a few days ago.

Sorry, no pool table.
Left it at my old house.
I do have a grill and some Italian sauages (both hot and sweet) to bat down those munchies.

Originally posted by SnakeLord
Oh.... sorry One_Raven but you've been a sinner. As such God has a much worse eternal life for you....He asked me to tell you so here goes:

You have been sentenced to an eternity of reading posts made by The Visitor.

Man that's worse than burning forever in my opinion :D

When is his "visit" going to be over, anyway?
Isn't it time to go back home yet? :D

Now i think about it It would have been better to say that i think there is none(afterlife), sorry, i was not conciously thinking about that as much as i should have at the time.

Restate- I believe there is no afterlife, I admit I do not KNOW. Sorry for that

Did any of you see that simpsons episode where god speaks to him??

I saw, heard, experienced and witnessed God so i guess that makes it irrefutable fact because it was on the simpsons?

I don't see how anyone can say no to that....

Ok, it's merely based on the ideas of a writer but so is everything else religious folk regard as undeniable fact!!

GOD EXISTS! Bow your heads you incompetent fools! :D

“The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists.”

Ok, lets look at this from another angle, what do you mean the evil in the world does not exclude the existence of God?

In the bible it states that God breathed life into a constructed body, and the body became a living soul. The living soul was instructed by God, as to how to conduct his life, properly, without sin or unlawful behavior. This is clearly Gods involvement, from there on we know that the living soul broke the law, not because of Gods involvement, because HE, ADAM, decided there could be no possible harm in wanting to be on the same level as God. In other words Adam became selfish, and was tempted to envy the knowledge of his maker, and thus wanted the same knowledge, which would mean he didn’t need God. This act includes envy, lust and greed, ignorance, and it is these traits that cause evil to manifest in this world.
So how is God included in evil, from the statement of the bible(or any other scripture).


From this arguement many(I included) believe that it is quite unreasonable and illogical to believe in God as we know him.

I believe that you used the term, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, to demonstrate the idea that God cannot be these things, if there is evil in the world, as opposed to Him actually having these attributes. That’s fair enough, it’s yours and others opinion, but can you tell me what it means to be, all-powerful, all-good and all-knowing, do you have a model of that. If you cannot, then what is the use of your above belief. If you were searching to buy a car, would you buy one purley on the basis that is was all-good, or would you be curious as to what all-good means.

You say it is , “illogical to believe in God as we know him”, who is “we”, don’t you mean you, what do you know about God, that you have come to this conclusion.

Love

Jan Ardena.

hmmm. Now if God doesnt have those attributes, then can he(it) be considered God?

I was working off the definition of God that has been given throughout history.

How can you argue this? do you not see the point being made? why dont you stop trying to belittle my arguement and instead try to reply with a proper arguement, honestly i would like to hear what you have to say, especially if it is an honest attempt to answer the question and not beat around the bush by trying to redefine God and make it look as thought somehow I am mistaken for actually listing the attributes that define the concept of God, realistically I can not cover everyone's notion of a supreme being, but if it does not have the capacity for being all powerfull then can we still call it God??

I am not trying to twist around the idea of God, I am instead asking questions that relate directly to the perceived attributes that a God, by definition would need to possess.

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
hmmm. Now if God doesnt have those attributes, then can he(it) be considered God?

I was working off the definition of God that has been given throughout history. I am not trying to twist around the idea of God, I am instead asking questions that relate directly to the perceived attributes that a God, by definition would need to possess.

If you really are asking about the attributes of god, then you'll find them all in the Quran. They are 99 attributes. The site below gives the attribute, the meaning, and the verse of the Quran were the word was found.

http://www.pearls.org/names/99names.html

Thanks for the site, those are basically the attributes that i would believe to be held by a supreme being. It is quite obvious that I could not list them all so I sumed them up by describing God as all powerfull, all knowing.....etc

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
[quote]do you not see the point being made?
Yes, it is that God existing as All-powerful, knowledgeable and good, cannot logically exist, because evil exists.

…why dont you stop trying to belittle my arguement and instead try to reply with a proper arguement, honestly i would like to hear what you have to say, especially if it is an honest attempt to answer the question

You said quote, “The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement”
How have you come to this conclusion?

….and make it look as thought somehow I am mistaken for actually listing the attributes that define the concept of God,
The fact that you have listed the attributes, and then come to the above conclusion, under the guise of logic, can only mean you haven’t looked properly into your claim

….realistically I can not cover everyone's notion of a supreme being, but if it does not have the capacity for being all powerful then can we still call it God??
It has nothing to do with peoples notions of a Supreme Being, but what a Supreme Being is, and whether such an entity could exist and be excluded from evil, simoulneosly. To do this you have to go to the sources of all information, which also is the fuel behind everyones notion, to come to your conclusion, and as far as I can tell, you haven’t.

I am not trying to twist around the idea of God, I am instead asking questions that relate directly to the perceived attributes that a God, by definition would need to possess.
What is/are the source(s) for your definition?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Yes, it is that God existing as All-powerful, knowledgeable and good, cannot logically exist, because evil exists.


Jan, there is not contradiction in the coexistance of evil and all powerfull. It's a good questions though.

You see, evil existance is not a permanent state. The god of respite and patience allows for some time for evil to exist to give it a chance to rehabilitate and come in terms with it's good. If god didn't allow evil to exist by either condemning it right away then he would loose the attribute of being mercifull and compassionate.

At the end though all scores will make perfect sense and everyone will get what they deserve and they are not going to cry, we didn't get a second chance.

Originally posted by one_raven
Sorry, man.
But the "getting wildly screwed" part leaves you out of my plans.
You can come by for weed and The Simpsons afterwards, though.
I have the first season on DVD and I just picked up a quarter ounce of some really prime Hydro a few days ago.

Sorry, no pool table.
Left it at my old house.
I do have a grill and some Italian sauages (both hot and sweet) to bat down those munchies.

I was thinking the "wildly screwed" part was about how fucked up we'd get from all the pot and alchohol...

I got little punkins, so what will be my pool table / bar room is now filled with toys. Okay, well I've got an X-box I can bring, but I got no games worth mentioning cuz as far as I can tell Halo is the only reason I bought the damn thing. :)

I'm putting the party plans on hold until my youngest is 5 at least. :)

Originally posted by SnakeLord
The only problem i can drag from this scenario are Gods rules on certain things.

Im pretty sure if we all sat down getting wildly screwed, smoking pot and watching old episodes of the simpsons we'd be sent to hell pretty swiftly.

As such our only real alternative in our eternal life is to make musical atrocities with our harps, fly about and play frisbee with our halos.

As such i concur that i'd rather just be dead.

First, if you accept the possibiltiy of an afterlife, why does it automatically have to been a lame version. How do you know what's evil here isn't just to contrast good. Once you've demonstrated you can resist sex, drugs, gluttonous foods, fighting, and stealing, you get absolute freedom to do as you please without the consequences. If there is not such thing as pain, then alot of things that were wrong here wouldn't mean squatt there (go ahead and play russian rollete with your brother...best of three wins!) Even if your christian, heavan does not have to be "harps and crappy music." I figure if God is to reward someone for there time here on earth it would be just that, a reward. And with his infinite wisdom and power i figure he can think of an infinite ways to entertain, boredom would not be an option. Which also means hell wouldn't have to become an exercise infutilety if he didn't want it to. If there is a heavan i'd definetely want to go.

Resist sex?? Are you mad or just young? Sex is wonderful and something pretty much every living thing on this planet engages in. If im not allowed access to heaven cause i have sex or if im not allowed to have sex once im in heaven then i concur i'd rather just stay dead when i am dead.

Ok, ok there's some wonderful moral teachings- dont steal, fight, do drugs yada yada but how could anyone include sex on that list? Explain to me the harm in having sex? Jesus works through me so it's actually him getting laid, not me :D

[i]Originally posted by heflores
Jan, there is not contradiction in the coexistance of evil and all powerfull. It's a good questions though.
Hi heflores,

Correct me if I misunderstand Moose, he says the existence of evil in this world, does not exclude the existence of God, but because there is evil, then it is extremely improbable that God exists. Maybe I don’t quite understand the “does not logically exclude the existence of God bit.
Then he concludes that it is quite unreasonable to believe in God as we know Him, based on the above evidence, ok thus far?
Is he not saying that God could not possibly exist, because there is evil in the world?
I may be wrong, but that is how it sounds to me. :D

You see, evil existance is not a permanent state. The god of respite and patience allows for some time for evil to exist to give it a chance to rehabilitate and come in terms with it's good. If god didn't allow evil to exist by either condemning it right away then he would loose the attribute of being mercifull and compassionate.
That is understandable.

At the end though all scores will make perfect sense and everyone will get what they deserve and they are not going to cry, we didn't get a second chance.
That is understandable, every religion says the same thing, in different degrees. This is what I mean about seriously discussing God, there must be a bona-fide source, such as Qur’an, Bible, Gita, otherwise it is just willy-nilly talk. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Oh.... we must use bone-fide sources? In which case i wonder why you never refer to Sumerian texts- (the original works of so many younger translated texts like the bible etc).

If you haven't studied Sumerian texts who are you to call the bible bone-fide?

Originally posted by SnakeLord
Resist sex?? Are you mad or just young? Sex is wonderful and something pretty much every living thing on this planet engages in. If im not allowed access to heaven cause i have sex or if im not allowed to have sex once im in heaven then i concur i'd rather just stay dead when i am dead.

Ok, ok there's some wonderful moral teachings- dont steal, fight, do drugs yada yada but how could anyone include sex on that list? Explain to me the harm in having sex? Jesus works through me so it's actually him getting laid, not me :D

I'm not saying the act of having sex is wrong or right. I'm saying that their are times when it is better to not have sex than to have to have sex.

Ex. 1 You know you have HIV and a fetish for 14-year old girls. I can't see any reason why it would be right to have sex with the young girls in this scencario.

Ex. 2. You've made a commitment to have sex with one woman for the rest of your life (wife) but your hot secartary keeps giving you the "i want to have a 3 hour sex-a-thon on your boss's desk" look. The fact that your wife would be devastated by your actions should be enough of an reason to turn down the sex-a-thon. Now if she doesn't mind....that's another scenario.

The ability to control your actions (not in the context of religious values, or societal values) may be the key to a heavanly reward...if their is a GOD.

Originally posted by SnakeLord
Oh.... we must use bone-fide sources? In which case i wonder why you never refer to Sumerian texts- (the original works of so many younger translated texts like the bible etc).

If you haven't studied Sumerian texts who are you to call the bible bone-fide?

Oh, so you're talking to me now? :rolleyes: :D

I am not fully aware of those texts, however, if they are from God, then add them to the list.

Love

Jan Ardena.

When was i not talking to you? If you refer to the discussion of 'love' etc i'd be more than willing to continue. I actually have my response in a notepad file on my desktop but had to rush out so left it half done. Now i dont even know what post it belonged in so i'ts sat on my desktop gathering dust :D

And yes the Sumerian writing is of the same nature of all holy texts.... i wasn't sure if it counted cause Visitor told me it was garbage although he admitted he had never even heard of it. go figure... :D

Originally posted by SnakeLord
When was i not talking to you? If you refer to the discussion of 'love' etc i'd be more than willing to continue. I actually have my response in a notepad file on my desktop but had to rush out so left it half done. Now i dont even know what post it belonged in so i'ts sat on my desktop gathering dust :D

And yes the Sumerian writing is of the same nature of all holy texts.... i wasn't sure if it counted cause Visitor told me it was garbage although he admitted he had never even heard of it. go figure... :D

I get the feeling there is some hostility toward me, from you, why?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Jan

"Is he not saying that God could not possibly exist, because there is evil in the world?"

just before you made this statement you said.........

Correct me if I misunderstand Moose, he says the existence of evil in this world, does not exclude the existence of God, but because there is evil, then it is extremely improbable that God exists."

I guess you did misunderstand, cause I never said he could not possibly exist because there is evil but his existance is improbable. Next time please try not to misconstrue my words to fit your liking.

I like this arguement because I feel that it should make theists think about their beliefs and if they do have a proper response then go ahead and list it, understand that it was not I who came up with this arguement, I am just restating it, so I am not to blame for the fact that you dont like it. I think everyone can agree that it is a very thought provoking arguement that deserves to be answered.

Please do not try to disgress from this topic and try to focus the attention on another irrelevant topic, running will not make the problem dissapear

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
Jan,

"Is he not saying that God could not possibly exist, because there is evil in the world?"

just before you made this statement you said.........

Correct me if I misunderstand Moose, he says the existence of evil in this world, does not exclude the existence of God, but because there is evil, then it is extremely improbable that God exists."

I guess you did misunderstand, cause I never said he could not possibly exist because there is evil but his existance is improbable. Next time please try not to misconstrue my words to fit your liking.

Don’t forget the word “extremely” which preceded the word “improbable,” and your addition of “should be thought of as strong evidence against statement,” a little further on. I fail to see how, from that position, there could be any possibility in your mind that God could exist, and even if I did exaggerate, I don’t think I was that far off.

[quote]I like this arguement because I feel that it should make theists think about their beliefs

Firstly, there is no argument, as you fail to answer my questions, and secondly, what makes you think theists don’t think about their beliefs, have you spoken to them?


understand that it was not I who came up with this arguement, I am just restating it,

Then what does this mean?

But if anyone thinks that they can give a good objection to this argument…

You have clearly come up with this argument, my objection is the source or lack thereof, of your analyses and conclusion.


so I am not to blame for the fact that you dont like it.

Nice try, but I have not expressed any emotion, I’m merley interested in how far you have gone to come to your conclusion.


I think everyone can agree that it is a very thought provoking arguement that deserves to be answered.[/quoteI]

If you want in depth answers, then elaborate on your first post, or answer the questions I put foreward, otherwise it will be the usual “God cannot be omniscient, if we have freewill argument”, which has been covered countless times on this forum, only to come to no avail. If you want thought provoking, then lets open this up. :)

[quote]Please do not try to disgress from this topic and try to focus the attention on another irrelevant topic, running will not make the problem dissapear

Look, you’ve come to a conclusion, the conclusion is basically that God does not exist. I’m asking why? Where is that irrelevant? At least try and answer my questions, if I have misunderstood you, it shall become clear, and I will hold up my hand. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by wesmorris
I must say gentlemen, Moose and Snake, that it is wiser to realize that there is no knowledge of an afterlife, rather than "there is no afterlife". I do not believe there IS, I don't believe there isn't either. I believe that while more sensible, it is just as presumptuous to state that you "know there is no afterlife" as it is to say "you get 72 virgins and an infinite supply of cuban cigars". There is no convincing evidence either way since the nature of consciousness is not understood. Now, if you're just theorizing, that's different and more power to you.. but to say "I know this" about that which you cannot know is not a reasonable position.

Excellent. I would have alot more posts if you did make them before I even read the thread(and some of these are loooooong threads).

I agree with you, but...some don't. What say to a certain Susan Blackmore? She claims to have proven there is no afterlife, or at least she feels her data convict the concept enough to rule out afterlives in her mind. And I do find very few...well, no proofs for the afterlife that don't come with their own set of blind-faith dogmas. There's an afterlife because Jesus died for us/God is benevolent/karma is a cycle, etc.

Originally posted by SnakeLord
You've been living it up with eternal life for the past 10 millennium. Everything that can be said has been said, everything that can be learnt has been learnt. All you can do now is..... well.... nothing. I guess you could rebel in which case you'd be sent to hell to burn for eternity, but eventually you end up in exactly the same position.

OK, fair enough, but only given the most childish, unsophisticated of Christian cosmologies. If we are having fun conjecturing about random, unknowable afterlives, let's, well, "live it up," shall we?

Suppose personal physical limits i.e. body, thought capacity, ect. By the time you're learned half of eternity, the other half is long gone. Learn it again! Do all the shit you forgot you did! If you live long enough on earth, that's how life here will be. Except your back eventually goes out. We'll not suppose this personal limit in the afterlife.

Next. Suppose no personal or physical limitation at all. Cosmic Consciousness and all such. Can't understand it now, but who knows. I assume boredom ceases to exist in Nirvana. (P.S. I dislike this afterlife. Too boring.)

Third and final. Suppose infinite mental capacity and some personal/corporal limits but throw in some "unlimited willpower." Once you've learned a certain quota, will your self to forget it but retain the desire to go learn it again. Seems ridiculous, but who said the afterlife had to be reasonable. Life here sure isn't.

Oh, the Heart of God is but Glorious Madness! Ahahaha! Hey, that's a good cult idea. I bet I could make hella dough.

Originally posted by wesmorris
I mostly agree with you regarding your assessment of a potential afterlife, but I believe it pertinent to note that "time" in the sense that we know it as living people... wouldn't likely be the same in some kind of "afterlife".. which again I find no compelling evidence of, only warm and fuzzy theories of no real merit. The theory of "you're dead and gone...... buh-bye" certainly has merit, but is no fun if you're into the 7394 recyclable and perpetual virgins and all the cool drugs in the afterlife and whatnot...... :)

*giggle*

Ever notice how no one who goes to Sylvia Browne or John Edwards gets this answer, "Well, I'm getting sulfur and screams, was Uncle Slappy a pedophile or a murderer by chance, oh yes, now I see him. Engulfed in living, black flame. Hi Uncle Slappy."

I'm surprized no Christian radio minister has picked up on this as evidence of hell-denying blasphemy. Or maybe one has.

Why are all afterlife concepts ultimately deemed "good." Christians have their hell and all, but which of them beliesv THEY are personally bound for it? NOne of them unless they're severely depressed or being manipulated by others. Religion has all the smackings of a brand name clothing rack: "For us, by us."

Jan-

I simply restated the arguement from Philosophical Problems and Arguements I wanted responses to this arguement, and with responses I would then throw my two cents in. But understand that it was not my original arguement, I was merely posting it to illicit debate, Not to be blamed for the author's position and to how he arrived at it.

I wanted some replys and with those replys people can start taking sides on the arguement and decide to write down intelligent ideas, i did not want a stalmate to occur regarding the intial question's semantic appeal.

Please dont be so much on "attack mode" and instead take a deep breath and relax, after lowering your blood pressure decide to allow the newly freed blood to flow through your brain and with this energy let it be focused on the issue at hand. Sorry if this was in a codescending context, but the message still stands.........relax

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
[quote]Please dont be so much on "attack mode" and instead take a deep breath and relax, after lowering your blood pressure decide to allow the newly freed blood to flow through your brain and with this energy let it be focused on the issue at hand

Thanks for your concern Moose, I’m sure it was meant with the best of intentions, for my well-being, my blood pressure is fine thank you, and the blood is flowing very nicely thank you very much. As I was not in attack mode, I am now beginning to understand that this line of questioning must be quite difficult for you to fully comprehend, as it has not been covered on any of the “how to answer religionists/christians” sections, on forums such as atheism.org, or the like.


. Sorry if this was in a codescending context, but the message still stands.........relax

Yes, it was a bit condescending, but most of us who believe in God, have become accustomed to such childish prittle- prattle, from non-believers, be it direct or indirect. I believe your number was got, when you said; “whos this truthseeker character?? a preacher????? cause they tend to make my ears bleed.”
However for the sake of any further delays, I have received your message loud and clear, and would now apreciate it, very much, if you would at least try and answer some of the questions I posed. ;)

Thank you very much, a now, much more relaxed and centered.
Jan Ardena. :cool:
:m:

First of all, I'm sure you have some conception of what "god" is. I believe the most pertinent question regarding this type of debate is as follows (paraphrased from ConsequentAthiest): By what methodology do you choose YOUR conception of "god" over others?

By the way...
I meant to mention before.. to all those who are listening:

Religion is a stupid thing based on faith IMO. I really don't care if you have to believe it, but I will continue to scoff at you and riducule you if you continue to attempt to debate your point.

Do you understand your fopa? (how do you spell that?). Faith? You have faith it some seemingly random thing and then try to debate why other people don't believe the same stupid shit you do. YOU CANNOT REASONABLY ASSERT FAITH REGARDING A RELIGION. It is literally impossible by definition. If you were a smart religious person (like many I know) you'd know better than to even discuss it outside of those who feel similarly.. because there's really no way to validly defend your stupid shit. You can be into whatever stupid shit you want, but if you had half a freakin clue, you'd learn not to argue about it... especially with someone who is versed in logic and reason. You don't understand how stupid it is. It's like me betting up on the pulpit and trying to explain religion to you and not understanding it at all. You'd look at me like I was a crackhead. That is why you get ridiculed here, I'm simply better at this than you are, like you are better at me at quoting scripture. Stay with your churchies, quote your scripture. I'll stay here and continue using my brain.

Originally posted by wesmorris
By what methodology do you choose YOUR conception of "god" over others?

Others? What are you talking about?
And by what methodology does anyone choose anything?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Others? What are you talking about?
And by what methodology does anyone choose anything?

Love

Jan Ardena.

By others I belive he meant "other religious/mythological systems." If his record holds, he'll be by to clarify pretty soon.

By what methods do we choose anything? This is an excessively open, rhetorical question. It's a diversion. I see where you might go...we choose things not only for reason but from passion or aesthetic. Still, I could see it argued that what we choose is always based on our senses. God, if extant, is beyond this perameter.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Others?

Ganesha, Thor, Allah, Zues... etc.

Further, everyone on the planet has their own conception of god. Not all of them can be right, right? I mean, Zues and you conception of "god" couldn't really exist at the same time could they? I don't mean in your head... I mean in reality... the objective world.

There are a lot of people who claim to have an accurate depiction of "god" right? You seem to be one. Thusly I reiterate: How do you choose your god? Why is YOUR god a more feasible solution to the problem "is there are god?" than "Zues" or whatever? Does there exist some methodology by which you can lead me to the same decision in a manner that I cannot refute? No, there isn't. Thusly, all succesive arguments fail.

Jan Ardena and me share the same god and I'm muslim and she's christian. The jews also share the same god. We say, god is the creator of human beings and everything in the universe. The three religions of Christianity, Islam, and judiasm are iteration of the same message by the same god. Zues is not a god under our religion. Those were pagan beliefs that attributed seen things to god, like god for sea, god for land, god for sex, ect. Since then, we evolved.

Jan-

Let me try to answer some of your questions

Firstly, there is no argument, as you fail to answer my questions, and secondly, what makes you think theists don’t think about their beliefs, have you spoken to them?

Yes I have spoken to many theists in my time, I was raised a catholic- went to church, went to CCD and completed all the required ceremonies. I think one of the biggest contributors to my being able to come up with my own beliefs is the fact that my parents did not push Catholicism on me, any more so than simply being exposed to it, I never had to hear propanganda being issued by my parents, which I believe would have a bigger influence on my beliefs than just the church individually. I started to ask questions simply because I wanted to know some answers regarding the beliefs I was being taught. I would ask my CCD teachers and sometimes priests hard to answer questions and It always turned out to be some incomplete answer or "God works in mysterious ways"

Theists need to take into account that it is very hard for ex-theists to break away from beliefs that have been drilled into their heads by constant sermons, teachings and years of upbringing. It takes a lot of courage to reach inside of your capacities to question something that sounds so promising. I was looking for the truth in an honest attempt, I did not just accept something so blindly, there were so many unanswered questions, maybe other ideas had better answers than just "it is because I say so"

Presently I make a conscious effort not to discuss religious ideas with either my peers or friends. I only result to arguementation when someone has said they have found the truth, insulted me, or have not looked into other alternatives.

I do not look at this issue as a you vs me type of thing. I expect theists to answer some essential questions instead of referring one to the bible for the answer, the bible is only good for people that believe, otherwise it needs proof as to why it is the truth. What you need to understand is that theists claim to have all the answers, so a proper response is the least we can ask, Atheists on the other hand dont believe, and why should they believe? I dont remember any undeniably evidence for the belief in god, they are still on the quest for the answer.........Does anyone have a problem with that??????

To sum this issue up- Act with some respect when you argue with an atheist or agnostic, because they have taken the road less traveled and this road happens to not lead into the infinite sunset. This should at least show to many that the quest for truth may lead people into some harsh realizations, but if one is to say they are searching for the truth then you cannot say "well I dont like that idea.....it makes me sad:( ," therefore i will ignore it and stick to what I like best"

I still am open minded, I do not cut off my mind to different beliefs, but so far I am sticking with the trend that gives me the best answers for the truth( best being described as what works, not as what makes me feel better) So why should one yell at the atheist for believing for what they believe, it is only logical that they are skeptical when religious beliefs are not backed up with any conclusive or quality explanation.

Originally posted by wesmorris
Ganesha, Thor, Allah, Zues... etc.

Further, everyone on the planet has their own conception of god. Not all of them can be right, right? I mean, Zues and you conception of "god" couldn't really exist at the same time could they? I don't mean in your head... I mean in reality... the objective world.

There are a lot of people who claim to have an accurate depiction of "god" right? You seem to be one. Thusly I reiterate: How do you choose your god? Why is YOUR god a more feasible solution to the problem "is there are god?" than "Zues" or whatever? Does there exist some methodology by which you can lead me to the same decision in a manner that I cannot refute? No, there isn't. Thusly, all succesive arguments fail.

Well wes, this appears to be a somewhat reasonable line of questioning, so i am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and try an answer your questions.

A concept is simply an idea, every human being has the ability to construct ideas. You are right when you say, everyone can't be right, because ultimately there can only be one right.
God has many names, i believe heflores pointed you to a website where there were 99 different names, just for the one God, Allah. Each name depicts a certain attribute of God, eg.

The name “God” is of germanic origin, it translates, “The Good one.”
Elohim is hebrew, and sometimes it is broken further down to El, I’m sure you know, this means, mighty, strong or prominent when translated.
In the language of aramaic, Jesus reffered to a more loving side of God, “Awoon”, which means Universal Father.
The name Allah, is as you know, an arabic term for God, many islamic sholars have translated it to mean, One Who Gives Life.
Vishnu, is sanskrit term for God, is translated as, All-pervading.
Krishna, also sanskrit, is translated as, All Attractive.
Those are just a few.
Zues, according to Greek mythology, was the son of God, named Adonai, Ganesha, is the son of Lord Shiva, whom a large portion of people believe to be God.
All these different names are different aspects of His character and personality, the difference with God is that every single aspect of Him is personified, and the personifications are both different and the same, this is the Omnipotent, Absoluteness of God, this is how He is described.
God is described perfectly, in every scripture, to some degree or other, so unless the descriptions match what is in the scripture, how can they be right?
The confusion comes when, lets say, the muslims say that there is one God, Allah, it says so in the Qur'an, so all other gods are nonsense, then the christians say, Jesus says, i am the light, the truth and the way, you only get to God through me. But if you read and try and understand each scripture, you can easily recognise the one God, who is dealing with different sets of people at different times.


How do I choose my god?
The answer is, attraction, I am attracted to God.

There is no methodology, other than personal experience, that would lead you to the point where you cannot refute, this applies in all aspects of life. We are all different in our personalities, desires, ambitions and so on, if you do not want to accept that God exists, then God will give you the opportunity to live that life.

My question to you is, why do you torment yourself so much, why don’t you just accept that you don’t believe in God, and leave it at that?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Jan-

Why dont you try to stick with answering questions, for I do not confess to having all the answers.

Why do you think I am the one to have to defend the notion of God, you know im sorry if people have high standards for a supreme being, but it comes with the territory of being a supreme being.

My question to you is, why do you torment yourself so much, why don’t you just accept that you don’t believe in God, and leave it at that?

How sorry a question, I must say.
No truth will ever be reached by accepting an answer one currently holds and never questioning it. Philosophy would be dead by now if we had that mentality.

Jan Ardena and me share the same god and I'm muslim and she's christian. The jews also share the same god. We say, god is the creator of human beings and everything in the universe.

\Respectfully, that's a crock. First of all, all humans have their OWN conception of god even if based upon what you claim above.

The three religions of Christianity, Islam, and judiasm are iteration of the same message by the same god.

\THAT, is another crock. How can you say that? Ack. Okay, whatever.. let's just say it's true (though it sounds like another complete crock to me given that I would imagine the 99 blah blah's of god that you quoted would piss off a lot of christians or jews.. as a matter of fact, aren't you as a muslim, supposed to shun jews?) Islam is based on the teaching of Mohammed or whatever, and then jews and christians argue about which part of the bible is right, correct? The quran and bible are significantly different documents right? I'm not particularly familiar with either of them.. just know the basics. Regardless, you choose the quran and she chooses the bible. WHY? They say completely different things, but both talk of some "all powerfull guy who told me to write this shit down". Based on that premise, you say "we share the same god."? If so, you aren't much of a thinker regarding this topic IMO.

Zues is not a god under our religion. Those were pagan beliefs that attributed seen things to god, like god for sea, god for land, god for sex, ect. Since then, we evolved.

\Exactly my point. But yet you think YOUR god is better because you've "evolved"? STOP RIGHT THERE. Do you understand what you just said? Oh man, you need to think about that long and hard and realize how stupid that is, how presumptuous and how really, you just invalidated your entire perspective on religion. You basically said that "if it were a thousand years ago, I would have done the zues thing because that's as 'evolved' as

Since then, we evolved.


Not hardly, mankind has - devolved - not evolved.

We were created perfect, and like a copy made of a copy have gotten dumber and weaker every generation since.

Why have were been allowed to accumulate this much knowledge this time around, is stead of destoying ourselves and our enemies. because the Holy Spirit has been anointing mankind for the last two milliniea, and protected us from ourselves.

The just and un-just receive the same rain.
But guess what ....the rains about to stop.
Remember Noah? preaching "the rains coming , the rains coming, it's going to destroy the world.
Nobody believed Him though he peached for 120 years while building the ark.

The messages the opposite this time.......the rains(Holy Spirit) about to stop. And when god removes His protective hand from mankind................you'll see just how "Evolved" they've become.

Since then, we evolved.


Not hardly, mankind has - devolved - not evolved.

We were created perfect, and like a copy made of a copy have gotten dumber and weaker every generation since.

Why have were been allowed to accumulate this much knowledge this time around, instead of destoying ourselves and our enemies, as soon as we invented the bow or gunpowder....?. Because the Holy Spirit has been anointing mankind for the last two milliniea, and protected us from ourselves.

The just and un-just receive the same rain.
But guess what ....the rains about to stop.
Remember Noah? preaching "the rains coming , the rains coming, it's going to destroy the world. See.... there had never been rain fall on the earth it, was watered from a dew that came up from within....Like the way Man was watered from the inside...before the fall.
Nobody believed Him though he peached for 120 years while building the ark.

The messages the opposite this time.......the rains(Holy Spirit) about to stop. And when God removes His protective hand from mankind................all hell's going to break lose.

Power without character is Satanic, and all the knowledge man has accumulated during two thousand years of Holy Spirit anointing, when that Spirit is removed that knowledge and power (the lethality of the tree of Good and Evil) is going to be left in the hands of those without the charcter to use it.

You're about to see just how "Evolved" they've become.

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Since then, we evolved.


Not hardly, mankind has - devolved - not evolved.

We were created perfect, and like a copy made of a copy have gotten dumber and weaker every generation since.

Why have were been allowed to accumulate this much knowledge this time around, is stead of destoying ourselves and our enemies. because the Holy Spirit has been anointing mankind for the last two milliniea, and protected us from ourselves.



So instead of accepting that knowledge is the truth, the light and the way, you think it's a dead guy and invisible sadist in the sky. Typical of a theist (IMO) to blame his feable mind... and thus the minds of his human brethren on his own inept belief system.

It still kills me that you people ask for proof not to believe. OMFG, that is just typical of a lesser brain.

Originally posted by TheVisitor

The messages the opposite this time.......the rains(Holy Spirit) about to stop. And when god removes His protective hand from mankind................you'll see just how "Evolved" they've become.

Blah blah blah. You're stupid and you want everyone else to seem that way to you can have a leg up. You are insecure and your ego commands that you compensate.

As a brief and informative post i will apply this:

Jan Ardena is not stupid. he/she/it is fully aware and understanding of what you ask. It's a case of answering questions with a question in order to avoid the original question. that's all very well and good but it's actually easier just to type: "i dont know".

It is fully possible Jan is from a foreign 'disposition' and doesn't understand or pick up on the subtleties of the English language. Perhaps it would be better by us to speak in a simpleton tongue.

Jan.... the pretentiousness and apparent lack of understanding you promote is rare and bizarre. I concur that you are in fact smart enough to understand what is being said and asked but choose to avoid it as if it were the plague. In my opinion it's better to just answer the questions than to avoid them as if you are incapable.

I notice this attitude from you on many post throughout this forum, stooping to not answer a question 'cause wesmorris made a typo and so on. If you can't answer a question, don't- there's no need to act like you're incompetent.

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Since then, we evolved.


Not hardly, mankind has - devolved - not evolved.

We were created perfect, and like a copy made of a copy have gotten dumber and weaker every generation since.

Why have were been allowed to accumulate this much knowledge this time around, is stead of destoying ourselves and our enemies. because the Holy Spirit has been anointing mankind for the last two milliniea, and protected us from ourselves.

The just and un-just receive the same rain.
But guess what ....the rains about to stop.
Remember Noah? preaching "the rains coming , the rains coming, it's going to destroy the world.
Nobody believed Him though he peached for 120 years while building the ark.

The messages the opposite this time.......the rains(Holy Spirit) about to stop. And when god removes His protective hand from mankind................you'll see just how "Evolved" they've become.

And this is all substantiated by...? Gospels? I refute this. The Pali Text of the Northern Buddhist Schools are inspired by The True God, literally and infallably. So are the Shinto Text. I believe in these with a heart of blind faith because they are true. Therefore, the Bible is wrong. The end.

Are you beginning to understand the futility of circular reasoning yet?

God? Let me tell you about God: The God you are all arguing about is a myth. The God of classical theism doesn't exist, has never existed and will never exist. The God so many of you adore is nothing but a careless Creator. Like the scientist who grew the bacterium in his pathetic petri dish, he hatched us and then left us to rot. He is not good, or all loving. He's not even that clever! Given a few centuries, we could create an inhabited planet as 'good' as he has!
Evil is not his problem - it is ours. We do what we can to survive, and inevitably it has caused us to become ruthless and unforgiving in nature.

One thing that always bothered me about this argument:

No one seems willing or able to define "evil." The abstract is so vague, like God, that it could mean nearly anything to anyone. Do we mean suffering? Suffering is impersonal, a result of some phenomenal interactions. It could be used to refute the existence of a benevolent deity.

Not necessarily human action. Do we mean cruelty on the part of man? This is at best a weak argument against a deity. It's also more easily controled. Or maybe it's not. It persists.

Do we mean mere limitation and separation? Kabbalists figured this out centuries ago. Refer to them if you already believe in all that religious stuff.

Aside from the more elegant of these Judaeo-Mystical speculations, I find all religious attempts at removing the problem of evil ridiculous and full of gaping, weeping holes.

Hellenistic Gnosticism: God made/accidentally allowed the Demiurge, a devil-like creator who causes suffering. OK, why'd he do that?

Primitive Judaism: God is good and bad. He allows suffering. The world is meaningless aside from harsh, impersonal lives within a community context. Why is this omnipotent being swayed by either "good" or "evil?"

Later, cultic Judaism: Some angels rebelled and created evil. Why did God make rebellious angels? Or for that matter, why did God make angels? Why did he place such arbitrary limits on them and, as he apparently did according to the myths, give them desires for rebellion?

Christianity: If we only believed in Jesus... Well, yes, if everyone followed Christ's mandates, or some of the basic ones, we'd be fine in terms of human cruelty. Bored, hungry, soon to be dead, but we'd lack human evil. We'd increase our suffering, unless we became so Christlike that we abandoned ALL our worldly cares that we ceased to be concerned with our own pain. This is suicide.

A side note on the above - No amount of Golden Ruling will cure childhood cancer. Formal Morality doesn't touch some of the worst, most horrific accounts of human suffering.

Hinduism: Karma, hell, I don't even want to go into the philisophical/logistical problems inherint to the Karma idea.

Classical Buddhism: We suffer. That's it. No further explanation. Very unsatisfying and it gets us nowhere in terms of understanding. As for the method for the removal of suffering, see Christianity.

Classical Manichaean Gnosticism/Zoroastrianism: Two Gods, one bad, one good. Why? Where'd they come from? How can either be The Real God? Neither is obviously omnipotent, since neither can kill the other. Taking these two as abstracts, as the Tao and Kabbalah do, I can see the vague beginnings of a decent philosophy, but we could dispense with the theistic aesthetics.

Almost all religious philosophies ignore the intrinsic and exponential complexities of the universe, earthly world, and human society. Certainly ALL dogmatic systems do. They fail at everything they attempt to undertake at a below-surface level. I'm beginning to honestly belive they only survive because the majority of humans are basically simple minded and merely survival-oriented.

wesmorris,


oh boy here it comes. my bet is that truthseeker goes nutz!
I have just found this thread, and I'm not "going nuts"... :D
A reply soon...

MooseKnuckle,


The problem of evil is one of the most troublesome problems that faces anyone that believes that there exists an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful God who created the world we inhabit.
Indeed. I do have some problems with that (only personal, though)... but...


The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)
...that's not really a problem because the key here is free will. We can do evil if we want, and that's why there is so much evil in the world.

The only real problem I have with that is that I have to deal with evil in my everyday life, and that kinda sucks. But as I grow and mature spiritually, evil will have less and less influence in the way I feel. The same for everybody.

Posted by TheVisitor: The messages the opposite this time.......the rains(Holy Spirit) about to stop. And when god removes His protective hand from mankind................you'll see just how "Evolved" they've become.
Hehe... "evolved"...:D:D

Truthseeker-

What about natural evil?

The immense suffering resulting from natural disasters such as earthquakes, floods, droughts, hurricanes, and the like, which are not the causal result of any moral agent in the world.

Well wes, this appears to be a somewhat reasonable line of questioning, so i am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and try an answer your questions.

\thanks.

A concept is simply an idea, every human being has the ability to construct ideas. You are right when you say, everyone can't be right, because ultimately there can only be one right.

\Of course.

God has many names, i believe heflores pointed you to a website where there were 99 different names, just for the one God, Allah. Each name depicts a certain attribute of God, eg.

\Yeah, but that's kind of BS. You're talking about completely different religions and saying "oh, well.. since they all talk about one god, it must be the same one". That's like saying "since I took a road to get to work, it must be the same road I took to get to st. louis." Just because you've all adapted the word and say "must have created the universe" or whatever, doesn't mean that you're talking about the same thing.

The name “God” is of germanic origin, it translates, “The Good one.”
Elohim is hebrew, and sometimes it is broken further down to El, I’m sure you know, this means, mighty, strong or prominent when translated.
In the language of aramaic, Jesus reffered to a more loving side of God, “Awoon”, which means Universal Father.
The name Allah, is as you know, an arabic term for God, many islamic sholars have translated it to mean, One Who Gives Life.
Vishnu, is sanskrit term for God, is translated as, All-pervading.
Krishna, also sanskrit, is translated as, All Attractive.
Those are just a few.

\While somewhat interesting, I fail to see how it supports your assertion that your religion is reasonable choice of perspective on the creation of the universe. You're talking about a bunch of independent incarnations of properties that different people think that the creator of the universe must have had. Silly.

Zues, according to Greek mythology, was the son of God, named Adonai, Ganesha, is the son of Lord Shiva, whom a large portion of people believe to be God.

\I didn't know that. Take me to school baby, that's what I'm talkin bout.

All these different names are different aspects of His character and personality, the difference with God is that every single aspect of Him is personified, and the personifications are both different and the same, this is the Omnipotent, Absoluteness of God, this is how He is described.

\That is a ridiculous theory created to support your poor assumptions. It's as if all I have to do is come up with a word you might interpret as good.. and you'll say "yes, that is an attribute of god".. in that manner you shall always reach the same conclusion.

God is described perfectly, in every scripture, to some degree or other, so unless the descriptions match what is in the scripture, how can they be right?

\Who are you to qualify what is "perfect" regarding god? GOD IS NOT YOUR CONCEPTION. IF GOD EXISTS, THEN GOD IS GOD, NOT SOME RIDICULOUS ABSTRACT. Don't you see? You are in the grips of a cult mind set. You say "described perfectly". That is not possible... we are human right? We cannot perfectly describe our asses let alone the "ultimate being". Your argument is moot due to that invalid assumption, as is the tendency of all of your arguments on this topic.

The confusion comes when, lets say, the muslims say that there is one God, Allah, it says so in the Qur'an, so all other gods are nonsense, then the christians say, Jesus says, i am the light, the truth and the way, you only get to God through me. But if you read and try and understand each scripture, you can easily recognise the one God, who is dealing with different sets of people at different times.

\Blah blah dogma dogma. What bearing does your scripture have on reality? It has an undetermined amount of historical value based on a anthropological interpretation and analysis of motives behind the authors. You have to think about it, just "accepting it as the word of god because it moves you" would be the same as you accepting ME as god because you were moved by my earnest plea of reason...


How do I choose my god?
The answer is, attraction, I am attracted to God.

\Hehe, I'll reserve comment because you seem nice. :)

There is no methodology, other than personal experience, that would lead you to the point where you cannot refute, this applies in all aspects of life.

\Then I find your method of discerning the correct flavor of religion somewhat stark if a tad bit of critical thinking is applied. For instance, not all religions are correct right? According to most of them you'll go to hell if you're not a member of it right? I mean, you may just go to pergatory or whatever depending on the level of "touchy feely" interpretation you've been exposed to, or done your self... but you're definately wrong if you're not a member.. unless you are going to come up with some bullshit about how that's wrong.. which would have an inkling of truth but would have to be mostly founded on pure conjecture... I digress. Well, what if you're going to hell because you chose the wrong one? Spectacular spiritual bummer and waste of time for you. Okay, tell me how it's "no, you're not bad if you're not in my religion, you're just ignorant" or the line of denial "we are tolerant of all other religions" (which I'm sure some of the members are, but the nature of bueracracy betrays religion by insisting that this attitude is instilled somewhere throughout the structure of the religion.. but that just me reasoning on the fly.. pardon). Okay I'll drop it.

We are all different in our personalities, desires, ambitions and so on, if you do not want to accept that God exists, then God will give you the opportunity to live that life.

\Certainly, but you just agreed that only one can ACTUALLY EXIST, okay, IF that's true.. WHY THE HELL does the bible have any bearing on it? What's the correlation between god and the bible? Not, is he in it... but what if people just LIED and said he wrote it.. or were INSANE and THOUGHT he said it and wrote it down and it is really just people making up crazy stories based on their interpretations of what happened to them or people they knew in their time of limited understanding of their context in nature/the universe/all that. *sigh*

My question to you is, why do you torment yourself so much, why don’t you just accept that you don’t believe in God, and leave it at that?

\You don't understand... I'm not tormented, I'm enthralled with the quest, I'm into it man. I love the nogginflexin. I think I'm very very good at it (hey, gimme a break, I wouldn't do it if NOBODY cheered for me, I might as well!). I need this stimulation, oh man.. I wish I could explain it to you as you likely wish you could explain your religious experience junk to me. I'll just leave it with this: I'm not tormented by this, you can believe it. I'm just gifted in that I can see through the bullshit and I feel I have to open the eyes of whoever I can... which is likely nobody.. but I'll try anyway just for the excercise of the brain and love of the quest for understanding.

tired now, hope I wasn't toooo offensive or stupid. not sure if my head is on exactly straight at the moment... kind of spaced out and tired.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
...that's not really a problem because the key here is free will. We can do evil if we want, and that's why there is so much evil in the world.

The only real problem I have with that is that I have to deal with evil in my everyday life, and that kinda sucks. But as I grow and mature spiritually, evil will have less and less influence in the way I feel. The same for everybody.


OK, as MK pointed out, you still must contend with what he terms "natural evil." On the same, you failed to respond to my earlier, identical criticism. For argument, a paraphrasal readdressment; All the believing and moralizing in the world won't keep childhood cancers at bay.

How exactly would you explain miscarriages and spontaneous natural abortion? What, God decided he didn't like that one? Don't tell "I don't know. I have faith." That's a glaring escape route. I suspect it doesn't impress anyone and only makes your case weaker and weaker still.

I have yet to hear a reasonable Christian answer to this question. Ever. I'm sure you'll be no different. If your and other believers' track records hold up, you'll either ignore this post or you'll respond to it as if it were a wholley different question, with some ridiculous but forgettable non sequitur.

Originally posted by wesmorris
[quote]Yeah, but that's kind of BS.
Yeah, but that's kind of your opinion.

While somewhat interesting, I fail to see how it supports your assertion that your religion is reasonable choice
I don't recall telling you what my religion is.

Who are you to qualify what is "perfect" regarding god?
It is not that I am qualifying any perfection regarding God, but i am qualifying that the description of God is in all scriptures, that is a fact.

GOD IS NOT YOUR CONCEPTION. IF GOD EXISTS, THEN GOD IS GOD, NOT SOME RIDICULOUS ABSTRACT. Don't you see?
I see that this is your opinion.

You are in the grips of a cult mind set.
This assumption is your opinion.

Your argument is moot due to that invalid assumption, as is the tendency of all of your arguments on this topic.
This is an assumption based on your opinion. :rolleyes:

What bearing does your scripture have on reality?
Read them for yourself and see.

It has an undetermined amount of historical value based on a anthropological interpretation and analysis of motives behind the authors. You have to think about it, just "accepting it as the word of god because it moves you" would be the same as you accepting ME as god because you were moved by my earnest plea of reason...
This is your opinion, therefore it doesn't really matter what i say.

Hehe, I'll reserve comment because you seem nice.
Somehow or other, your hidden sentiments come shinging through, but that is only my opinion. :rolleyes:

Then I find your method of discerning the correct flavor of religion somewhat stark if a tad bit of critical thinking is applied.
That's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.

According to most of them you'll go to hell if you're not a member of it right?
An example?

but you're definately wrong if you're not a member..
An example?

ell me how it's "no, you're not bad if you're not in my religion, you're just ignorant" or the line of denial "we are tolerant of all other religions"
I have not come across anything in any scripture that resembles this or anything (for that manner), that you said. You seem to be arguing from the point of veiw "he said and she said".

ly, but you just agreed that only one can ACTUALLY EXIST, okay, IF that's true.. WHY THE HELL does the bible have any bearing on it? What's the correlation between god and the bible? Not, is he in it... but what if people just LIED and said he wrote it.. or were INSANE and THOUGHT he said it and wrote it down and it is really just people making up crazy stories based on their interpretations of what happened to them or people they knew in their time of limited understanding of their context in nature/the universe/all that.
But what if you're wrong and it is all true?

I wish I could explain it to you as you likely wish you could explain your religious experience junk to me.
Why do you feel the need to debase religion so much, it is not good conduct, I hope Cris will do something about this kind of behaviour, because it is totally unnecessary.

I'm just gifted in that I can see through the bullshit and I feel I have to open the eyes of whoever I can...
You mean you are proseletyzing.

tired now, hope I wasn't toooo offensive or stupid. not sure if my head is on exactly straight at the moment... kind of spaced out and tired.
Probably not too offensive, but definitely unnecessarily offensive.

Love

Jan Ardena.

It is not that I am qualifying any perfection regarding God, but i am qualifying that the description of God is in all scriptures, that is a fact.

But the description varies geatly. So who's right, if anyone?

Also....


According to most of them you'll go to hell if you're not a member of it right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


An example?


See what i meant about answering a question with a question? I'm sure you understand the meaning of wes' question.... can't you just answer it? A simple yes, no or maybe would probably have sufficed :)

Don't blind yourself with your problems with religion Snakelord. It has been a convenient scapegoat until now, but sometime you will have to come out from under that convenient shelter.

You have to either admit there is a God or there isn't - could be is not good enough - since it means you want God to come down to you and "prove himself", and that you don't believe He might already have done that. God would not let people have to believe in Him based on myths, or even truths - He gives us knowledge, experience and wisdom, so that we can talk about Him.

How exactly do the descriptions of God vary, any more than the descriptions of any one person would vary?

If a religion says you are going to hell if you don't belong to them, stay away. If a religion says God will know if you don't belong to Him, well... it's up to God then isn't it? No person or group can send you to hell - nobody has that authority.

I think God stays rationally "elusive" to you because you refuse to anything that has any bearing on Him. If an angel came down to you and told you God exists, you would believe in angels but still doubt God's existence. Do you really expect God to personally come down and convince everyone on earth that they have no choice but to believe in Him? If you weren't given a choice, would believe? Would you even want to, since who wants to serve a God who gives you no choice?

If I understand things at all, this is exactly the kind of split which will happen when Jesus returns. OK, this is theology, so I don't expect you to relate at all. Some people will feel compelled to oppose him (based on their knowledge or lack of knowledge of "God"), and others will follow him naturally.

Originally posted by Jenyar

You have to either admit there is a God or there isn't - could be is not good enough - since it means you want God to come down to you and "prove himself", and that you don't believe He might already have done that. God would not let people have to believe in Him based on myths, or even truths - He gives us knowledge, experience and wisdom, so that we can talk about Him.


Jenyar is right. Wanting to see god to really believe is the same as Atheism, It's like asking for death right away. It's not possible. If god wanted to show himself to us in bright light, then all respite would end, and judgement time would be here. God hides behind a veil when dealing with humans....Some of us have lighter veils than others. Jesus and all the prophets had a very light veil, still couldn't see god's face. For some it's more comfortable to stay in darkness, because that justifies the type of life that they love so much.

Don't blind yourself with your problems with religion Snakelord. It has been a convenient scapegoat until now, but sometime you will have to come out from under that convenient shelter.

I'm far from blind. My only problem with religion is the faithful acceptance without proof. There's thousands upon thousands of religions.... Everyone is in the happy position of being right- their truth is the truth. Everyone has a scapegoat... It's called 'faith', 'belief'. I am in a bizarrely annoying position where blind faith isn't good enough. I require facts and proof.. sue me.

Convenient shelter? Think about your own position.


You have to either admit there is a God or there isn't

No i don't. If i stole a bread loaf from the shop i could admit that or not because i know the truth of the matter. I am not as presumptuous to say 'i know the truth' when i don't, and as such do not have the position to admit to anything.


could be is not good enough

Well i prefer 'might or might not'. That good enough?


since it means you want God to come down to you and "prove himself"

No no, God can do whatever he wants to do... it really doesn't affect me in the slightest. But it is paramount to truth.


God would not let people have to believe in Him based on myths, or even truths - He gives us knowledge, experience and wisdom, so that we can talk about Him.

And thus some just accept on faith, but some of us require more. I do require more..... I guess it aint my fault though, i'm just human.


How exactly do the descriptions of God vary, any more than the descriptions of any one person would vary?

Seek and ye shall find. But the descriptions of God vary to such extreme degree it leaves questions that we must ask. One description states god as an invisible entity, another description states god as non existant. How much more diverse than that can it get?


If a religion says you are going to hell if you don't belong to them, stay away. If a religion says God will know if you don't belong to Him, well... it's up to God then isn't it? No person or group can send you to hell - nobody has that authority.

And if there is no god? Thus begins the problem....


I think God stays rationally "elusive" to you because you refuse to anything that has any bearing on Him.

I dont refuse, i debate. My human mind considers that important. It considers the need for truth as paramount. You think god stays... I don't want to accept a life of 'think', i want to be able to answer the questions. It's an impossibly high aim i understand that, but i can't just accept, i can't do it any other way than to find the facts.


If an angel came down to you and told you God exists, you would believe in angels but still doubt God's existence. Do you really expect God to personally come down and convince everyone on earth that they have no choice but to believe in Him?

Guess so.. But.... saying 'have no choice but to believe in him' is faulty in its approach. You see... if i knew for fact he was there i wouldn't 'believe' anything i'd know. Thus i wouldn't have a problem with the whole thing cause i'd know the facts. I'd then wanna sit down with him over lunch and ask how he came to be, why he made us, if he made anyone else and so on. Until that time it's all 'mights or might nots'.


If I understand things at all, this is exactly the kind of split which will happen when Jesus returns.

You sound positive he will. Is that absolute undeniable fact? oops... there's my exact problem.


OK, this is theology, so I don't expect you to relate at all.

ya got me there... :bugeye:


Some people will feel compelled to oppose him

Oppose? Or maybe some people dont see the need to just throw blind faith into something that might not be true. It's always an open possibility, same as everything else, but it is nothing more than that.


(based on their knowledge or lack of knowledge of "God")

......... It's supposition, not knowledge.

As an extra.....

Why do people fall from faith? I know a girl who has been an extremely devoted Christian her entire life. There was absolutely no doubt to anything and she would have claimed to have known the truth as much as any devout believer.

Now she says otherwise.....

Why would someone do that?

Don't try plam it off as 'false christian' or some other highly obnoxious statement to protect your faith.

Like i said..... she was as religious as they come.

If i was to find a fact.... For instance: I have 2 feet. There is absolutely no chance i'd sit down one day and think otherwise.

Thus i concur: none of this is fact- as such you just accept. I for the millionth time- cannot just 'accept'.

Originally posted by SnakeLord
I'm far from blind. My only problem with religion is the faithful acceptance without proof. There's thousands upon thousands of religions.... Everyone is in the happy position of being right- their truth is the truth. Everyone has a scapegoat... It's called 'faith', 'belief'. I am in a bizarrely annoying position where blind faith isn't good enough. I require facts and proof.. sue me.

Convenient shelter? Think about your own position.



SnakeLord, just for the sake of discussion, can you mention to me some proofs that will be viewed as satisfactory to you in believing that you and the universe were created by one creator that we call god. Now imagine yourself as a 0.000001mm bacteria that is deaf blind cell....What do you exactly wanna the bacteria to see to convince it that humans exist, and on the same notion, what do you want to see to convince you that god exist.

well..... He could sit down with me and have lunch, (i hear he likes roast lamb).

Aside from that i guess i can just find out the truth when i die and god greets me with open arms and love in his heart. I would cry, knowing i had finally found my long lost daddy and as we walked off into the eternal sunset together the Home and Away tune would play in the background, (Harp version- rev 1.2). Satan could play a mighty fine rendition of Robert Johnsons 'Hell hounds on my trail', Jesus could perform tricks to please the audience and we'd all be eternally happy.

I was hoping you stay serious in the discussion, but I guess, you already have a preconceived idea of religion that you think is right and is too lazy to really think about religion in any serious educated manner.

By the way, god is not a human and he doesn't sit with people to sip coffee and have lunch. Seeing him, would make you piss in your pants and disintegrate into nothingness. Not every soul is fit to see god.

I was hoping you stay serious in the discussion, but I guess, you already have a preconceived idea of religion that you think is right and is too lazy to really think about religion in any serious educated manner.

I was being serious. What would you like me to have said? Ok, i said it in humorous manner but i don't know what else you could want from me... I need proof. A feeling in my heart or a voice in my head is not proof to anything.

Michael Chrichton, The guy who wrote Jurassic Park, once had a tree speak to him. He wanted to hear the tree and it spoke. Want is irrelevant dont you think? It's all people say around here day in, day out. You must want..... That's very flimsy in my opinion. Did Michael Crichton hear a tree? hear the christian god? Hear his own mind? Is he delusional? Insane? Well?


By the way, god is not a human and he doesn't sit with people to sip coffee and have lunch.

How do you know? What about Jesus? Surely then the 'new age' Jesus could come and have coffee with me at the very least?


Seeing him, would make you piss in your pants and disintegrate into nothingness.

How do you know?


Not every soul is fit to see god

How do you know?

In summary:

There are several questions for you to now ponder--- 3 'How do you know's and is Michael Chrichton mad?

But it sounds very much to me like you have a 'preconceived idea of religion that you think is right'. A belief in something that nobody else can debate because you say it's true.

Originally posted by SnakeLord
But it sounds very much to me like you have a 'preconceived idea of religion that you think is right'. A belief in something that nobody else can debate because you say it's true.

Not at all, I may be wrong about many of things in life and my understanding of religion, that does not make my creator wrong though in any way. I also understand your itch of wanting to see proof to believe.....A proof other than if the egg exist, then a chicken must have existed kindda sublte proof. But.....

You must first understand the meaning of life and purpose of creation to understand your relationship with your creator. If you don't understand your purpose in life SnakeLord, then you're prematurely investigating god, because you'll never understand god clearly.

I always question over and over again when I look at life,
why is it of such finest beauty, What is the secret of its undividedness, and the bond of its unity; and the source of its perfections; and in regard to art and nature, look at the miraculous reality which makes the tiniest creature like a universe;

I think that life is a transformation-machine in the vast workshop of the universe, which continuously cleanses everywhere, purifies, allows progress, and illuminates. And living bodies, the dwellings of life, are guest-houses, schools, for instructing and illuminating the caravans of particles, enabling them to perform their duties. Quite simply the Ever-Living Self-Subsistent One (God) makes subtle this dark, transient, lowly world, illuminates it and gives it a sort of permanence, preparing it to go to another, everlasting world;

Originally posted by SnakeLord
[quote]Perhaps it would be better by us to speak in a simpleton tongue.
That is so condescending. :D

But the description varies greatly. So who's right, if anyone?
Before I begin, I would just like to point that you have answered a question with a question, so hopefully, you will understand why I sometimes do it, and refrain from your lead weight put-downs.
The descriptions vary according to the particular scripture, because people are different, as I mentioned earlier. A good example is state education, lets take a subject like math. There are different standards of math for different people who are of differing levels, but the subject is one thing, math. Similarly, God is one, but people see Him according to their particular levels of consciousness.


According to most of them you'll go to hell if you're not a member of it right?

An example?

See what i meant about answering a question with a question? I'm sure you understand the meaning of wes' question.... can't you just answer it? A simple yes, no or maybe would probably have sufficed
That is a fair question, I have never come across a scripture where it says that you go to hell if you’re not a member. But to be fair, I have not read all scriptures, and may have missed this deal in the ones that I have read, so I want wes to give me an example, a scriptoral reference, so I can see for myself.
If that is alright with you, that is. :rolleyes:
Remember, this man boasts that he is a gifted brainy guy, and operates on a level of logic and reason, so I expect he must have shed-loads of proof to back up his statement.

A member! :D

Love

Jan Ardena.

Truth Seeker:

Good point about "Free Will"

Wes

"fopa" is correctly spelled "faux pas" which means false step.

Olaus:

I am having difficulty understanding "natural evil". Is the fact that living orgnisms can be injured and destroyed evil? How about non living things?

Certainly from an athiestic percpective the concept of "evil" must be just as illogical as the concept of "God".

Originally posted by MShark
Certainly from an athiestic percpective the concept of "evil" must be just as illogical as the concept of "God".

Why? To an extent you're correct, but it's a good word to describe "the dark side" of human behavior. The word still works it just doesn't have the "satanic" or "fallen angel" component... it IS a little hoaky, but not any more than "good" really. Both somewhat ignore the variety of agendas and values set forth by every person. (good, is not neccesarily the same thing to me as it is to you)

Thanks for the spelling, now that you put it out there it looks familiar.

Jan,

You are being evasive and ignoring my questions and observations. I would argue that most of what I said is a reasonable argument which you ignore and say "it's your opinion". That's lame. If you don't want to debate that's fine, but you're acting somewhat childish with your "well that's your opinion" shit. I won't bother refuting you, it's not worth my time. You are apparently commited to wallowing in your cultish crap, so as far as I'm concerned.. have fun. I'll be willing to talk when you actually contemplate what I'm saying and realize I say it with good will, rather than scoffing at me because my exceptional reasoning skills and logical approach don't please your religious palette.

Bye.

Wes:

The way I would define good, bad, and evil:
Somthing is good if it is benificial to organisim, or group,
it is bad if it is detrimental to the organisim or group, and
evil is when a separate group or entity deliberatly goes against the desires of the first group or entity.

GOD IS NOT YOUR CONCEPTION.

You are absolutely correct.

Who are you to qualify what is "perfect" regarding god?

I used perfect in the sense of... God is described in all scriptures and this is perfectly known, do you see?

GOD IS NOT YOUR CONCEPTION. IF GOD EXISTS, THEN GOD IS GOD, NOT SOME RIDICULOUS ABSTRACT. Don't you see?

Hopefully you will see that this is irrelevant in light of my meaning.

You are in the grips of a cult mind set.

You have to understand that this is your opinion, I know me, and you are attempting to describe my mindset, to me, based on our discussion.

You say "described perfectly". That is not possible..

A simple misunderstanding, right? ;)

We cannot perfectly describe our asses let alone the "ultimate being".

He is described in all scriptures, if you do not agree, there is nothing I can do or say.

Your argument is moot due to that invalid assumption,

My so-called assumption, was, again, for the record, a misunderstanding.

as is the tendency of all of your arguments on this topic.

This is an unreasonable statement, because everything I have said can be backed up. You, on the other hand have only made wild, disrespectful assumptions, based on negative emotion.

You are in the grips of a cult mind set.

Why do you assume this?

It has an undetermined amount of historical value based on a anthropological interpretation and analysis of motives behind the authors.

What do you want me to say to this, it is not a question, you are not arguing, you are telling me, so it is your opinion, and I for one wish you the best matey.

You have to think about it, just "accepting it as the word of god because it moves you"

Well, I have thought about it, can’t you tell. But I do prefer when it moves me, because then, I know its real. Maybe that is what you need, your views are dull, predictable and uniformed, I can predict 9 times out of 10 how you are going to respond, because that is how you are trained. It is sad, but it is fact, just read your own posts and see how miserable you are. :D

Yeah baby, I liked to be moved. :p

Then I find your method of discerning the correct flavor of religion somewhat stark

Of course you do, I don’t believe you can think any other way, because of the way your mind has been trained.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Not at all, I may be wrong about many of things in life and my understanding of religion, that does not make my creator wrong though in any way.

It does not instantly make your creator right either. Thus my point.


I also understand your itch of wanting to see proof to believe.....A proof other than if the egg exist, then a chicken must have existed kindda sublte proof.

Glad you see my 'itch'.


You must first understand the meaning of life and purpose of creation to understand your relationship with your creator.

Meaning of life differs from person to person- nobody is inherently wrong, nobody is ultimately right. As for purpose of creation..... There's nothing to prove we were 'created' so all talk of needing to understand relationships with 'my'? creator are pure speculation and supposition. They hold no more weight than a lonely drifting feather.


If you don't understand your purpose in life SnakeLord

My personal purpose in life is to find answers and never to just accept something on faith. I understand that perfectly.


I always question over and over again when I look at life

Why question if you already have your answer? Or... more to the point why think you are asking questions? If you already have the answer those questions are mere time fillers.


Quite simply the Ever-Living Self-Subsistent One (God) makes subtle this dark, transient, lowly world, illuminates it and gives it a sort of permanence, preparing it to go to another, everlasting world;

Speculation, supposition, guess work.

Life might be amazing, might be wonderful and incredible to us. That still doesn't have to point a finger at an 'ever living self subsistent being'.


That is so condescending.

True true, but im only human.


Before I begin, I would just like to point that you have answered a question with a question

Well....... I actually put my answer to the question then asked a question as 'return fire' :D That's what keeps debates alive!! What i mean by this is, in response to wes question you could have said: "Not to my knowledge, no. However have you got any examples to show me?" ;)


so hopefully, you will understand why I sometimes do it, and refrain from your lead weight put-downs.

Lead weight put downs? Ah dont take it that way. I was 'speculating' that you did in fact know exactly what he was talking about... The meaning might have been subtle but im sure you got the point. Let me ask for one answer as solid as can be given: If i 'deny' God my whole life and continue along a path to find my own truths will God hold that against me once i die? If i am a serving christian with love of god and jesus i take it i'd gain access to 'heaven', eternal life, whatever. What if i am not? What happens to me?


The descriptions vary according to the particular scripture, because people are different, as I mentioned earlier.

Of course they vary- time, influence, personal belief, translation errors, stories mixed with 'chinese whispers' and so on. Doesn't mean any of them are right or even close to accurate. You and i could sit and discuss months of the year.... Most are named after supposedly mythical gods..... and realise that history has a diverse effect on belief, religion and society. What you believe now is so different to what people believed 5000 years ago, what people in other cultures believe etc..... Who's to say who is right? Because you feel god, hear god are concious of what you assume to be god doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Billions of people feel, hear and are concious of things that are in direct contradiction to your own truths. All of them remain 'might or might not'.


That is a fair question, I have never come across a scripture where it says that you go to hell if you’re not a member.

I think you're sidestepping the question personally. Ok maybe he worded it wrong.. Not neccesarily being a 'member' of anything but there are specific rules and regulations in place in most religions, if not all. Do the people who do not follow these rules and regulations, (thou shalt not commit adultery etc- [Which would put two thirds of England in hell]), for whatever reason, get doomed? I think that's what he meant.


If that is alright with you, that is.

Ask God....it's nothing to do with me.


Remember, this man boasts that he is a gifted brainy guy, and operates on a level of logic and reason, so I expect he must have shed-loads of proof to back up his statement.

Nobody has shed-loads of proof. Let's agree hopefully that this is nothing more than 'swapping notes'. It's like a giant universal college, of which we are all students, and sometimes it's best to have a look at what your colleagues have written. Doesn't mean they're right, but at the very least might provide us with more questions and some answers.

Originally posted by MShark
evil is when a separate group or entity deliberatly goes against the desires of the first group or entity.

Close enough for me, and it happens all the time. Evil in the context you've established doesn't have any religious connotations whatsoever.

[B]It does not instantly make your creator right either. Thus my point.
Glad you see my 'itch'. [B]

But every creation there must be a creator. a single greator that is responsbile for combining all the forces together into one so it may perform it's function. I have discussed this before under a separate thread, and energy equations, inertia equations, momentum equations, can't be attributed to the creation of man. What combines all the forces of physics, biology, chemistry. What does SnakeLord. We humans can't create anything or even raise from the dead an already created human. You must believe in your creator, or you don't even believe in yourself as a creation.

Wes:

If you agree with my definition of evil then I would submit that there is no relation between premises one and two(Just because from my perspective somthing is evil does not mean it is evil from someone elses perspective, i.e. God's ). Thus the conclusion while not necessarily wrong is not logical.

premise 1. An all good, all knowing, and all powerful God exists
2. There exists evil in the world

The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)

This is the most ridiculous post I've seen from you Jenyar, I'm shocked.

You have to either admit there is a God or there isn't - could be is not good enough -

\Utter bullshit. As a reasonable human you should frickin know better and I'm quite sure you do. Jenyar, some questions have not answer. You say "admit" as if there were some sort of reasonable compelling evidence one way or the other. The entire argument is that there is no evidence one way or the other, so it is silly to profess you have some sort of inside scoop.

since it means you want God to come down to you and "prove himself", and that you don't believe He might already have done that.

\*sigh* that is just sad. what? okay, because someone doesn't believe a WORK OF FICTIONISH/HALFASSED HISTORICAL ACCOUNT, one of severa different ones mind you.. you say all THAT. That's simply ridiculous. You are placing your own distorted perspective on the scenario and expecting reality to conform.. as does almost every freakin theist I've heard from.

God would not let people have to believe in Him based on myths, or even truths - He gives us knowledge, experience and wisdom, so that we can talk about Him.

\You spew dogma from your ridiculous assumptions that other people haven't made, and expect that you are communicating some kind of higher truth. I'm somewhat shocked that you'd follow this line of argument, seeing as how you're one of the few theists I actually respect.

How exactly do the descriptions of God vary, any more than the descriptions of any one person would vary?

\Did you read what I said to Jan? I think I covered it perfectly.

If a religion says you are going to hell if you don't belong to them, stay away. If a religion says God will know if you don't belong to Him, well... it's up to God then isn't it? No person or group can send you to hell - nobody has that authority.

\Now ou're being reasonable again. It's refreshing. You were freaking me out.

I think God stays rationally "elusive" to you because you refuse to anything that has any bearing on Him. If an angel came down to you and told you God exists, you would believe in angels but still doubt God's existence.

\It's a question of the nature of knowledge don't you think? I personally would take a shitload of convincing, but I'd prolly eventually come over. It's a matter of plausibility if you have half a brain in my opinion. God and angels are ridiculous sounding to me and seem bourne of the human need to have answers to fundamental questions regarding existence. Further, I'm aware that any race/whatever could easily fool me with sufficiently advanced technology. Given that, isn't it WISE to be a tough sell? No, I see.. just blindly believing a bunch of folk tales about invisible deities is better, right. Pardon. :rolleyes:

Do you really expect God to personally come down and convince everyone on earth that they have no choice but to believe in Him? If you weren't given a choice, would believe? Would you even want to, since who wants to serve a God who gives you no choice?

\I want the truth, I don't care what it is, but if you have crazy sounding claims, it'll take more evidence to convince me. Are you too abandoning reason for the cult mentality Jenyar?

If I understand things at all, this is exactly the kind of split which will happen when Jesus returns.

\Go ahead and hold your breath for that one there buddy. Hehe, you know what will happen, somebody will figure out how to say something like "I've proven this is the DNA of Jesus" and most of the sci community will be all "whatever" but some of the hardcore jesus head in that community will be all "yeah, it's true!" which will bring most of the christians around to their perspective (and of course they'll try to say "see, your own scientists say so" even though credible scientists don't). Then a year or few someone will clone from that DNA and say "Christ has returned" and all the christians will freak, but they'll be all "isn't something supposed to happen now?" and nothing will. Maybe if it's thought through beforehand people will realize it would only really harm christianity, not help. For now, just keep holding your breath.. and please, get the rest of your cult to do so as well.

OK, this is theology, so I don't expect you to relate at all.

\I will NEVER relate to it because I am not a cultist. I can face the truth, which NO RELIGION CAN TELL YOU. There is no answer to the question "is there a god?". Face it.

Some people will feel compelled to oppose him (based on their knowledge or lack of knowledge of "God"), and others will follow him naturally.

\Oppose him? What? Man, Okay, you're having a bad morning, I have those sometimes... but hey.. that's ridiculous. You mean, some people are sheep and some people can think for themselves and don't buy into cult mentalities in general, I'll buy that.. but don't come off all self-righteous that your bullshit assumptions are somehow more valid than someone who throws up their arms and says "I got nuthin.". Honestly, the person who does that has something.. something that I value almost more than anything: A REASONABLE MIND.

Have a super day! :D

Originally posted by MShark
Wes:

If you agree with my definition of evil then I would submit that there is no relation between premises one and two(Just because from my perspective somthing is evil does not mean it is evil from someone elses perspective, i.e. God's ). Thus the conclusion while not necessarily wrong is not logical.

premise 1. An all good, all knowing, and all powerful God exists
2. There exists evil in the world

The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)

It can be in a selective argument, yes. However, as Jan and others have pointed out (and not given the argument ANY credit by the way... which is just straight denial) you can wiggle your definition of god in a manner that precludes the validity of this stance.

Why can you religious people not admit that your beliefs are not logical? Your beliefs are unreasonble. They are understandable and forgivable and the exemplify the frailty of the human experience, but... YOUR BELIEFS ARE NOT BASED IN REASON.

Mine are.

Then you try to convince me that you make sense.

You don't.

You don't HAVE to, but you should be honest with us and yourself that you don't make sense.

You are satiating an element of emotional need within your mind and will bullshit yourself to do it. Hence your problem.

And then you claim that god is truth.

Your circular dishonesty disgusts me.

Wes:
Are you saying that your beliefs are based on reason?

That seems a little circular to me.

Originally posted by MShark
Wes:
Are you saying that your beliefs are based on reason?

That seems a little circular to me.

Indeed, now you're onto something.

It's a matter of where you place your faith.

Some people obviously place their faith in god....

but the people here are saying their faith is reasonable. I say no, your faith is circular like all faith. Meaning your belief in god is unreasonable.

My faith is in reason, which of course IMO... is by definition... perfectly reasonable. :)

natural "evil"- argue if you must on the meaning of evil its just a word to decribe this type of suffering.

What constitutes natural evil- The suffering caused by such natural disasters as earthquakes,floods,droughts,hurricanes, and the like, which are not the causal result of any moral agent in the world.

They are natural evils, evils for which no human being is responsible.

How do you respond to suffering that is not caused by humans?

The white rabbit told me to eat the blue and white mushrooms but I ate the pink ones and now I am totaly lost, and not very big either.

The white rabbit was ment for Wes:

Suffering is neither good nor bad IMHO. The worst suffering I have ever personally witnessed resulted in a beatuiful baby girl who has given me and her mother immense joy. Of course that was caused by humans.

For those people who have suffered beyond what they can endure I can not speak for or about. It is beyond my understanding.

For the rest of us suffering and death are a part of life I do not understand how they can be clasified as evil.

MooseKnuckle,


What about natural evil?

The immense suffering resulting from natural disasters such as earthquakes, floods, droughts, hurricanes, and the like, which are not the causal result of any moral agent in the world.
Tgis is not evil. This is the system regulating itself. When the system goes off-balance, those things occur to return it into balance.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Remember, this man boasts that he is a gifted brainy guy, and operates on a level of logic and reason, so I expect he must have shed-loads of proof to back up his statement.
[/B]

Yes, I think it's obvious. Oh, and I don't own a searchable bible, so I'm not looking it up. I would say however.. since I'm so gifted and brainy, that it is OBVIOUS, since if you don't love jesus, you go to hell right? Oh.. no, sorry. I meant if you don't love Muhammed you're going to hell. Was it Ganesha? Shit, I can't remember. :rolleyes:

Isn't it valid to assert that if I don't subscribe to the tenets of your scripture, I do not live by your scripture... and thusly am doomed by it right? I don't give a shit the bible, so I'm going to hell from your perspective. Simple.

EDIT: Oh, and also note that I never claimed PROOF. I have no PROOF (though I'm thinking it might be in there somewhere, seems like I should be able to condense all my ramblings into one small proof, I'm almost sure of it. I think I can do it, but haven't "prooved" anything yet). All I claim to offer is a buttload of creative, sensible, logical and reasonable thinking with comedic and sardonic undertones. I'm quite sure that I've served up my fair share eh?

I used perfect in the sense of... God is described in all scriptures and this is perfectly known, do you see?

\No, you're mincing words in a vain attempt to support your invalid assumptions.

Hopefully you will see that this is irrelevant in light of my meaning.

\No, you're ignoring my meaning and clinging to something you've made up. You completely ignored my point regarding the "one god" concept because you can't see that it's correct. I will not be blinded due to YOUR poor eyesight.

You have to understand that this is your opinion, I know me, and you are attempting to describe my mindset, to me, based on our discussion.

\Indeed I am. Consider it an intervention, whereby I show you you're behaving like an idiot. Just because it is my opinion, that doesn't mean it isn't true. You ARE in the grips of a cult mindset, but you in the cult so it doesn't look that way to you. I, NOT being in your cult, can easily see it.

A simple misunderstanding, right? ;)

\Whatever.

He is described in all scriptures, if you do not agree, there is nothing I can do or say.

\I say you are wrong and that it's assenine for you to assert this, considering you've already admitted you haven't read "all scriptures". Further, your assertion is completely invalid based upon what I've already told you about "god" being a different "god" to all religions. Your attempts at saying "oh, well, they're all just variations on the same thing" in essence, is a half-truth. It is true in the sense that they are all halfassed attempts to anwer questions that human beings are not as of yet, qualified to answer.. but not true in the sense that "they all speak of the same god". That is stupid, and I've already given you a parallel assertion that illustrates my point. You chose to ignore it.

My so-called assumption, was, again, for the record, a misunderstanding.

\You are NOT referring the the assumption I was referring to. I was referring to your assumption "my conception of god is pertinent". I would further say that your assumption "my holy scripture has some bearing on the origins of everything" or however you would word it, is also invalid.

This is an unreasonable statement, because everything I have said can be backed up.

\Then when are you going to back up even one point. Choose one and back it up and I'll apoligize. Otherwise, my statement stands as perfectly valid. Mind you, I'll attempt to refute your "backing it up" thing.. but I will admit it and apoligize if your evidence is irrifutable.

You, on the other hand have only made wild, disrespectful assumptions, based on negative emotion.

\You see my emotion as negative because you cannot relate and thus become xenophobic. You don't understand where I'm coming from and assume it's negative. You're wrong. Further, I've made no assumptions other than the following: I have faith in reason. I assume reason and logic are the tools by which arguments are disputed and sorted out into bullshit and not bullshit. You obviously do not subscribe to this assumption. Apparently dogma and religious brainwashing is all you know, and therefore all you have. It's sad. YOU cling to your religion for the "warm fuzzy" it gives you. I don't have a problem with that, I only have a problem with you attempting to use my precious logic and reason to assert that your position is valid. FIRST, you should have more respect for logic and reason and secondly.. employing the first leads one to the perspective that your position is NOT VALID... which is again, fine as long as you can admit it.

You are in the grips of a cult mind set.

Why do you assume this?

\Hehe, I've made and properly supported my case. You are simply unwilling to listen.

It has an undetermined amount of historical value based on a anthropological interpretation and analysis of motives behind the authors.

What do you want me to say to this, it is not a question, you are not arguing, you are telling me, so it is your opinion, and I for one wish you the best matey.

\I suppose it can be "just an opinion" but did you really look at it? Do you understand what it means? I don't think you do. It makes perfect sense. I was telling you that as part of a larger point. Actually, the more I think about.. I don't really think it's opinion. Look at it. It's truth. Don't be afraid. It's the method by which one might reasonably assess the validity of the bible. I had one of the best professors for history 20. I learned SO much in that class. It was just american history.. but it taught me the value of the anthropological approach in general. You cannot discern what really happened throughout history unless you can put yourself in the context that existed a the time and analyze the historical data based within that context. It's powerful stuff. Oh, but I guess that's just "my opinion". :rolleyes:

Well, I have thought about it, can’t you tell.

\No. I can't. If you have, I haven't seen evidence that you've done a particularly thorough or reasonable job of it.

But I do prefer when it moves me, because then, I know its real.

\There is your fundamental error. I can fill your cup full of mescaline, watch you drink it and laugh at the result.. do you think what you would experience under its influence would 'move you'? Would that make it truth. You may have thought about it a LOT, but you apparently aren't that great at thinking. You should work on that.

Maybe that is what you need, your views are dull, predictable and uniformed,

\I'll forgive you for slandering me. I understand that it is not easy when someone attacks the core of your beliefs. You should however, take it back. I am very well informed, very bright and my perspective is anything but dull. I would expect you would say such things though, as your "thinking skills" are lacking resources for a more sophisticated response.

I can predict 9 times out of 10 how you are going to respond.

\You're know you're just making that up. How insulting.

because that is how you are trained.

\At least I take responsibility for my own perspective. You use some poor ancient book as the scapegoat for your pathetic ignorance.

It is sad, but it is fact, just read your own posts and see how miserable you are.

\Uh.. *whistles a tune*. Okay... but I've already read it. I thought it was pretty good. You don't like it eh? *shrug* I have to be honest and true to reason. Sorry if you can't relate.

Yeah baby, I liked to be moved.

Of course you do, I don’t believe you can think any other way, because of the way your mind has been trained.

\Lucky for me. I can't live in a world of circular reasoning. I have far too much self-respect.

Love

\Do you know what that even means? Your post seemed awful hateful to end it with "love". You're just a machine going through the motions aren't you? That's pathetic.

Truthseeker-

Tgis is not evil. This is the system regulating itself. When the system goes off-balance, those things occur to return it into balance.

So if there is too much happiness and good, God will have to regulate by causing suffering? Man thats pretty harsh.

.....i have not forgotten your posts, i will respond to them shortly.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Moose:
You have to realize about TruthSeeker's God is that he is a being that IS LOVE! Everything he does is for our own good. Then he'll say that those people that were killed were probably of the 'other seed'.

In short, there are some obvious problems with his worldview.

MooseKnuckle,


So if there is too much happiness and good, God will have to regulate by causing suffering? Man thats pretty harsh.
No! It has nothing to do with people. The regulation is in the natural system. For example, if the air is too dry, it rains. Not a very good example, but whatever... The nature has to be in nalance. Natural disasters have absolutly nothing to do with people, it has to do with nature, with the eco-system.

TruthSeeker-

Oh I agree in a sense that natural disasters have nothing to do with people......except that they do affect people greatly.

I guess im a little confused...... I thought God created the earth, so wouldnt he be responsible for the suffering caused by natural disasters? If not, then who is responsible for nature? Satan?

MooseKnuckle,

God made up the system so that it regulates itself naturally. The system is independent from God. It just maintains itself and regulates itself. For example, God doesn't control an eagle when it eats a snake. The eagle do that naturally, by itself. It has a life of itself. Nature is like that. It is just a system that is there and sustains itself naturally.

TruthSeeker-

What about humans? Are we too independant of God? In that we sustain ourselves without his intervention, as is the case with nature. So far it sounds like your implying that God is not responsible for the type of system that we encounter(nature), that somehow its affects are independant of him.

God made up the system so that it regulates itself naturally

Part of its regulation is to destroy, to cause human suffering. This would have to be of his consideration when making such a grand design. One of such power should know the capabilities of its creations, and one such capability is for much human suffering as a result.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
MooseKnuckle,

God made up the system so that it regulates itself naturally. The system is independent from God. It just maintains itself and regulates itself. For example, God doesn't control an eagle when it eats a snake. The eagle do that naturally, by itself. It has a life of itself. Nature is like that. It is just a system that is there and sustains itself naturally.

I'm never seen anyone say less in more words.

Originally posted by wesmorris
I'm never seen anyone say less in more words. You haven't read Genesis 1, have ya? :D

MooseKnuckle,


What about humans? Are we too independant of God? In that we sustain ourselves without his intervention, as is the case with nature. So far it sounds like your implying that God is not responsible for the type of system that we encounter(nature), that somehow its affects are independant of him.
Somewhat like that. All animals have their own free will. They just do what they were made to do, that's all. We to sustain ourselves. But if there is a poor Christian, and this Christian has faith in the Word of God, this Christian can ask help for God, and God will help him. And he won't starve nor have no clothes to wear. So God can intervene when we believe in Him and want Him to help.


Part of its regulation is to destroy, to cause human suffering. This would have to be of his consideration when making such a grand design. One of such power should know the capabilities of its creations, and one such capability is for much human suffering as a result.
I don't know why God made the oceans and the sky as He did. What I know is that it works pretty well. Our suffering is not a result of His creation, but a result of our own lack of belief. God said that we can drink poison and not hurt us. He said: "no weapon shall prosper against you". All those natural disasters could have 0% of casualities and human suffering if we believed in Him. We are just too weak without Him.

Besides, the animals eat each other. Life and death is natural. This just has to be accepted. Nothing that is physical can exist forever.

"God said that we can drink poison and not hurt us."
You find ONE person who can do this, I'll supply the poison. We'll tour the country converting people. We'd make no profit at all, and be doing God's will.

However, I doubt that you will find someone who can drink any manner of poisons and not be hurt.

Maybe try Todd Bentley...:eek:
He is an evangelist, and he can probably do it.
http://www.thearc.bc.ca/
You can go to one of his conferences and see him doing miracles:
http://www.freshfire.ca/conferences/default.asp

If you are really searching God, you will find Him...:eek:

More conferences:
http://www.crossstyle.org/page3.html
http://www.fishthe.net/pages/Evangelist_Listing/

In those conferences, many miracles are performed. If you doubt, go in one of them. Tell them you are not a Christian and that you don't believe in miracles. They will show you. They will prophesy about you. You will see that God exists.

I recommend Todd Bentley. He is good enough...:eek:

PS: If you tell me where you live, I might try to find a conference near you...

Yet he can't heal himself of obesity.
Have this guy show up at a TV station, have the Tv station supply poison, and have him drink it. You'd have something that can convince many other people. After they fully belive, they should be able to drink poison too. You can see how fast this would spread.

The problem is he will probably die (or switch liquids). The knowledge of somebody being able to do this would spread like wildfire (assuming it's a variety of poisons, and not just 1 they are immune too).

To me Todd Bentley sounds like another soothsayer who claims to have the true prophecies.

He doesn't need to drink poison. It is also written: "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test". So the drinking poison thing, forget about it.

If you don't believe me, go ahead. Go to a conference if you are so sure about yourself.

19020... I'll go, but him hitting some people in the head and 'healing' them isn't quite enough.

Ok. :)
You can also adventure yourself and speak out, saying that you don't believe.... ;)

TruthSeeker-


But if there is a poor Christian, and this Christian has faith in the Word of God, this Christian can ask help for God, and God will help him. And he won't starve nor have no clothes to wear. So God can intervene when we believe in Him and want Him to help.

Do you honestly believe this?Come on everyone knows Believing is not enough to feed someone or give them the nessisities of life. And the people that dont believe? Does he say screw you buddy you dont get my compassion because you dont worship me. This sounds like a evil tyrant, not a loving supreme being.

And to respond on the whole poison/weapon concept. There is no human being, no matter how devote in christianity or any other religion that is impervious to danger, irregardless of how much they will pray or believe. This (i thought, but now im not so sure) was common sense. So are you saying that all the casualities throughout time happened to occur to only non-believers?? There has not been any extrememly devote people that died as a result of a natural force of nature?? I can guarantee that there have been many that have died in the past.

He doesn't need to drink poison. It is also written: "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test".

LOL! Man the punchline was awesome, i'm honestly rolling on the floor laughing! :D :D :D

Best joke i've heard this year.

MooseKnuckle,


Do you honestly believe this?Come on everyone knows Believing is not enough to feed someone or give them the nessisities of life. And the people that dont believe? Does he say screw you buddy you dont get my compassion because you dont worship me. This sounds like a evil tyrant, not a loving supreme being.
Those that don't believe don't receive because they don't believe. Simply like that. If I would say to you: "I left a check of 1 billion dollars for you in that box; just get it and it is yours". You can choose to believe and say: "I'm not losing my time with you". Then you don't have it. Simple like that. It is not God's fault that people don't believe Him. About believing and feeding...

Luke 9:12-17
"12 Now the day was ending, and the twelve came and said to Him, "Send the crowd away, that they may go into the surrounding villages and countryside and find lodging and get something to eat; for here we are in a desolate place."
13 But He said to them, "You give them something to eat!" And they said, "We have no more than five loaves and two fish, unless perhaps we go and buy food for all these people."
14 (For there were about five thousand men.) And He said to His disciples, "Have them sit down to eat in groups of about fifty each."
15 They did so, and had them all sit down.
16 Then He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed them, and broke them, and kept giving them to the disciples to set before the people.
17 And they all ate and were satisfied; and the broken pieces which they had left over were picked up, twelve baskets full. "

And Paul did it too... for less people though...

Acts 27:33-38
"33 Until the day was about to dawn, Paul was encouraging them all to take some food, saying, "Today is the fourteenth day that you have been constantly watching and going without eating, having taken nothing.
34 "Therefore I encourage you to take some food, for this is for your preservation, for not a hair from the head of any of you will perish."
35 Having said this, he took bread and gave thanks to God in the presence of all, and he broke it and began to eat.
36 All of them were encouraged and they themselves also took food.
37 All of us in the ship were two hundred and seventy-six persons.
38 When they had eaten enough, they began to lighten the ship by throwing out the wheat into the sea. "


And to respond on the whole poison/weapon concept. There is no human being, no matter how devote in christianity or any other religion that is impervious to danger, irregardless of how much they will pray or believe. This (i thought, but now im not so sure) was common sense. So are you saying that all the casualities throughout time happened to occur to only non-believers?? There has not been any extrememly devote people that died as a result of a natural force of nature?? I can guarantee that there have been many that have died in the past.
Unless they choose to die... no. Of course, that's not the easiest thing to believe. But if you really do believe in God you can do things that almost surpass your own imagination. For example, it is written "NO weapon shall prosper aginst you". Which weapon comes to your mind? Maybe a sword? Well, for me it comes... a nuclear bomb! :eek: Isn't a nuclear bomb a weapon? So that shouldn't hurt you if you believe it won't hurt you. Of course you can't just go and try it out. It has to really happen with you, not by your own choice. Because God doesn't want us to test Him. But that's just one demonstration of what can be done. There is much more.

TruthSeeker-

If I would say to you: "I left a check of 1 billion dollars for you in that box; just get it and it is yours". You can choose to believe and say: "I'm not losing my time with you". Then you don't have it. Simple like that. It is not God's fault that people don't believe Him.

How can you blame someone for saying "no way I believe that ridiculous claim" its an issue of reason and common sense, no one would believe that you left someone a check for a billion dollars. If someone did believe you then they are deficient in intelligence.

it is written "NO weapon shall prosper aginst you". Which weapon comes to your mind? Maybe a sword? Well, for me it comes... a nuclear bomb! Isn't a nuclear bomb a weapon? So that shouldn't hurt you if you believe it won't hurt you. Of course you can't just go and try it out. It has to really happen with you, not by your own choice. Because God doesn't want us to test Him. But that's just one demonstration of what can be done. There is much more.

come on man, im starting to question your grip on reality. Sorry, i mean no disrespect, but that claim is the biggest piece of garbage i think ive ever heard. No one can survive an atomic bomb no matter how much they love God. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had a lot of casualities, did all of them not believe?? A bomb will kill ANYONE in the vacinity, no one can escape, no matter what. It called life, shit happens.

If you can't put your lord to the test, how do you know it's the lord? You, that's right, don't think about it with your mind.

:rolleyes:

MooseKnuckle,


How can you blame someone for saying "no way I believe that ridiculous claim" its an issue of reason and common sense, no one would believe that you left someone a check for a billion dollars. If someone did believe you then they are deficient in intelligence.
There's no blame. They just chose not to believe. It is not hard to open a box, ya know? It don't take anything at all.


come on man, im starting to question your grip on reality. Sorry, i mean no disrespect, but that claim is the biggest piece of garbage i think ive ever heard. No one can survive an atomic bomb no matter how much they love God. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had a lot of casualities, did all of them not believe?? A bomb will kill ANYONE in the vacinity, no one can escape, no matter what. It called life, shit happens.
It only depends on belief.

wesmorris,


If you can't put your lord to the test, how do you know it's the lord? You, that's right, don't think about it with your mind.
This clearly show your complete lack of fellowship with Him...:bugeye:

Originally posted by MShark
Olaus:

I am having difficulty understanding "natural evil". Is the fact that living orgnisms can be injured and destroyed evil? How about non living things?

Certainly from an athiestic percpective the concept of "evil" must be just as illogical as the concept of "God".

Yes, it is. That's why it lives between quotation marks.

I have to caveat that I'm not sold into any worldview, atheism included.

By "natural evil" I simply mean suffering. Especially unavoidable and long-lasting suffering. In a world which answers to an invisible, all-beneficient deity, suffering, or material existence for that matter, would not be conscienable.

Why would a conscious, ubiquitous unity make physical worlds?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
This clearly show your complete lack of fellowship with Him...:bugeye: Wow... that convinced me that you aren't an idiot seeker.:rolleyes:

Does anyone recall my prediction from the second post in this thread?

TruthSeeker-

It only depends on belief.

No it does not depend on belief. Its a fact that an atomic bomb will kill anyone, it doesnt matter how much you believe, you will die, you cannot deny this.

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
[quote]Let me try to answer some of your questions
Yes I have spoken to many theists in my time.
First of all, the description of the word “theist,” is someone who believes in God, or gods. It does not state to what effect, in the same way “mechanic” describes people who apply the laws of motion in the art of constructing or repairing things. It is by and large a general and somewhat vague term.
There are different levels of theists.


I think one of the biggest contributors to my being able to come up with my own beliefs
What are those, if you don’t mind me asking?

I would ask my CCD teachers and sometimes priests hard to answer questions and It always turned out to be some incomplete answer or "God works in mysterious ways"
Could you give and example?

Theists need to take into account that it is very hard for ex-theists to break away from beliefs that have been drilled into their heads by constant sermons, teachings and years of upbringing.
That goes for everything, politics, education etc... we are, each and every one of us, brainwashed to some degree or other. Because at every stage, the powers that be, have a vision of how they want society to serve them, so they use everything at their disposal, religion is one of those things, because it is at the heart of every human. They also use sex, money, fear, patriotism, trust and many more deep-centered emotions. And in the same way, when any of these things are utalised for the benefit of self-development, we find ourselves not wanting to break away from it, but wanting to embrace it. It is a case of supply and demand.

It takes a lot of courage to reach inside of your capacities to question something that sounds so promising.
That is the thing with religious institutions, the idea is to get you in, and get your mind and your money, so they make everything sound promising, do this, do that, and you will go to heaven, don’t do it and go to hell, for eternity. Unfortunately, there are these unscrupulous people. But this is not the religion as put forward by God. There is a big difference.

there were so many unanswered questions, maybe other ideas had better answers than just "it is because I say so"
I bet if you ask me those questions now, you will get a different response.

I expect theists to answer some essential questions
Then, you must ask some.
instead of referring one to the bible for the answer,
There is nothing wrong with turning to any religious scripture for the answer, after all, that is what they are for. The problem occurs when they cannot explain what the scripture means, in terms of how it is relevant today.

the bible is only good for people that believe, otherwise it needs proof as to why it is the truth.
Evidence, proof, these are subordinate to truth, we need these things to establish theories, and facts, but the truth just hits you……. BLAM!!! :p
Try proving something, that is truth to you, to me, and I bet you will find the only way it can be done, is for me to accept what you are saying is true.
Go on...... try it!! ;)

What you need to understand is that theists claim to have all the answers,
Maybe the theists you’ve met, how many would that be, 100, 500, 1000 maybe, I’m quite sure whatever the amount, it is not enough to seriously give credit to a statement like that.

Atheists on the other hand dont believe, and why should they believe? I dont remember any undeniably evidence for the belief in god, they are still on the quest for the answer.........Does anyone have a problem with that??????
I think this lack of evidence for the existence of God, atheists keep talking about, is an excuse, because when asked what kind of evidence they want, it is usually nothing short of God materialising before their eyes, they are not interested in understanding who and what God is. But I for one do not have a problem with this, as I have been in that state of mind, and understand it.

Act with some respect when you argue with an atheist or agnostic, because they have taken the road less travelled
Give me a break, for cyin out loud.

and this road happens to not lead into the infinite sunset.
Where does it lead then?

This should at least show to many that the quest for truth may lead people into some harsh realizations, but if one is to say they are searching for the truth then you cannot say "well I dont like that idea.....it makes me sad:( ," therefore i will ignore it and stick to what I like best"
No, you ignore my questions, because you have no answers, because you don’t really know what you’re talking about. You’ve almost paraphrased some little argument about God not being able to exist if evil exists, I ask you some questions, in the hope of proving to you your point is futile, and you decline to answer. Why? Because it’s not in the script. This is why you decided to answer this particular question about talking to theists, because you thought you could handle it, but your answer is almost non-existent in relation to the question, you’ve been found out my friend.

should one yell at the atheist for believing for what they believe, it is only logical that they are skeptical when religious beliefs are not backed up with any conclusive or quality explanation.
Whose yelling at atheists, you made a point, I questioned it, and you now your lost, end of story.
What makes you think only atheists are logical and skeptical when religious beliefs aren’t backed up with a quality explanation?
Your full of silly generalisations.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by wesmorris
[quote]very bright and my perspective is anything but dull. I would expect you would say such things though, as your "thinking skills" are lacking resources for a more sophisticated response.

You have thinking skills?

Wow! :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

The way I see it, everyone here seems to be confusing themselves about the very reason for this post: Evil is not as open to interpretation as all this! Some people should stop babbling about 'natural evil' - there is no such thing. Nature is completely indiscriminate. Ok, so natural progression weeds out the week and useless, but this is besides the point: Nature does not sit back and think "Oh I don't like the look of that baby over there, I'd better give it cancer". All the organisms on this planet do what they need to do to survive. To the cancer itself, it is not evil.
Evil is what happens when an entity conscientiously decides to go against the grain. People killing people out of malice and for pleasure - this is not helpful to the progression of the human race, or the planet as a whole, therefore it is evil.
This is the only 'evil' that can be used if one wants to endulge in the argument against God's existence.
Oh, and as for Free Will? Yeah, we all know how this one goes too: If God was all powerful he'd find a way to give us free will, whilst still keeping us from committing evil acts. An impossible situation for us, maybe, but I'm sure God could figure it out somehow! LOL! :rolleyes:

MooseKnuckle,


No it does not depend on belief. Its a fact that an atomic bomb will kill anyone, it doesnt matter how much you believe, you will die, you cannot deny this.
If I say that depends on belief, you will say that it doesn't, so I guess this is a pretty pointless discussion and we should stop right here...

You said:
The problem of evil is one of the most troublesome problems that faces anyone that believes that there exists an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful God who created the world we inhabit.

premise
1. An all good, all knowing, and all powerful God exists
2. There exists evil in the world

The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)

From this arguement many(I included) believe that it is quite unreasonable and illogical to believe in God as we know him.

..............................
I say:
You list as premises 1.) That GOD exists, and that 2.) Evil exist in the world
Your next paragraph is and I quote: "The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)"

You seem to say that you believe that Evil does exist??? If so then # 2 premise would not be a premise at all. A premise is something assumed or taken for granted.
What is confusing is that you call them Premises and in the next paragraph call them statements, which is it?? statements or premises??
Am I to assume that you don't accept premise 1 but do accept premise 2??? And in fact your non-acceptance of premise 1 is based upon your acceptance of premise 2.
So, YOU see Evil in the world but not the opposite, right? How can see evil without it's opposite??? You can't have COLD without HOT, can you? Evil can't exist without something GOOD to compare it too???....joerecc

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
But if you really do believe in God you can do things that almost surpass your own imagination. For example, it is written "NO weapon shall prosper aginst you". Which weapon comes to your mind? Maybe a sword? Well, for me it comes... a nuclear bomb! :eek: Isn't a nuclear bomb a weapon? So that shouldn't hurt you if you believe it won't hurt you. Of course you can't just go and try it out. It has to really happen with you, not by your own choice. Because God doesn't want us to test Him. But that's just one demonstration of what can be done. There is much more.I hope you realize you've built yourself a fragile little bubble of belief based upon circular reasoning here. A little self-contained world of twisted logic which (if you truly believe and are not simply using as an argumentative device) you will find yourself trapped in. Be careful TS, I used to find your gospel of love to be a bit naive but otherwise healthy and positive. But the self-confirming rationalizations that you seem to have built for yourself are extraordinarily fragile and I fear you are setting yourself up for a catastrophic awakening when real events collapse that bubble.

I hope you also realize that what you are saying is that God confers absolute protection from any physical or (I'm assuming) moral danger based solely upon the strength of belief of the individual yet is willing to utterly abandon that individual if they dare to test their faith or suffer a dilemma that shakes their belief.

That is not love. Love holds true despite the failings of the individual, it doesn't abandon them when they need support the most. If this is a depiction of your God of love then your God is a sociopath.

~Raithere

What are those, if you don’t mind me asking?

I feel the best way to sum up my beliefs to to quote Richard Dawkins

"Some people believe in God because of what appears to them to be an inner revelation. Such revelations are not always edifying but they undoubtedly feel real to the individual concerned. Many inhabitants of lunatic asylums have an unshakable inner faith that they are Napoleon or, indeed, God himself. There is no doubting the power of such convictions for those that have them, but this is no reason for the rest of us to believe them. Indeed, since such beliefs are mutually contradictory, we can't believe them all."


"The details of the early phase of the universe belong to the realm of physics, whereas I am a biologist, more concerned with the later phases of the evolution of complexity. For me, the important point is that, even if the physicist needs to postulate an irreducible minimum that had to be present in the beginning, in order for the universe to get started, that irreducible minimum is certainly extremely simple. By definition, explanations that build on simple premises are more plausible and more satisfying than explanations that have to postulate complex and statistically improbable beginnings. And you can't get much more complex than an Almighty God!"

"Science offers us an explanation of how complexity (the difficult) arose out of simplicity (the easy). The hypothesis of God offers no worthwhile explanation for anything, for it simply postulates what we are trying to explain. It postulates the difficult to explain, and leaves it at that. We cannot prove that there is no God, but we can safely conclude the He is very, very improbable indeed."

Maybe the theists you’ve met, how many would that be, 100, 500, 1000 maybe, I’m quite sure whatever the amount, it is not enough to seriously give credit to a statement like that.

And the trend of giving weak answers continues.....

I think this lack of evidence for the existence of God, atheists keep talking about, is an excuse, because when asked what kind of evidence they want, it is usually nothing short of God materialising before their eyes, they are not interested in understanding who and what God is. But I for one do not have a problem with this, as I have been in that state of mind, and understand it

The state of mind to accept something without any good reason other than because it makes you feel secure? I dont need some extradordinary evidence, but i have yet to come across some good evidence to believe in a supreme being. You need to see that the idea of God does not hold so much weight in our current society where answers are being brought out by other means.

Where does it lead then?

To the lack of consciousness. We as individuals will lack to exist.

No, you ignore my questions, because you have no answers, because you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

Come on get mad, im sure your god would be proud of your hypocrisy. And somehow you know what your talking about?? You aint got nothing on me, you know why? cause you are a diluted person, believe what you will, but dont get mad when others take the more intelligent position, im soooorrrrrryyy if im actually searching for the truth and have not settled on some wishful thinking.

"Whose yelling at atheists, you made a point, I questioned it, and you now your lost, end of story.
What makes you think only atheists are logical and skeptical when religious beliefs aren’t backed up with a quality explanation?
Your full of silly generalisations"

Far from lost. I think that atheists are only logical and skeptical when religious beliefs arent backed up with a quality explanation because theists do not have a quality explanation for any of the questions that they believe to be truth. They have nothing but a lack of understanding.

Raithere,


That is not love. Love holds true despite the failings of the individual, it doesn't abandon them when they need support the most. If this is a depiction of your God of love then your God is a sociopath.
Who said God loves like that? He doesn't abandoned me when i need most, who said that?

My son died.... I needed god more than anyone else on this planet. Where was he then?

There's the fucking answer. You're special.... wooohoo. What about us ignorant people that aint christian?

Where was your god then heh? When i begged, i cried, i pleaded..... I needed so much......... nobody gave a fuck- least of all your god.

Let me guess.... vacation?

Originally posted by SnakeLord
My son died.... I needed god more than anyone else on this planet. Where was he then?

There's the fucking answer. You're special.... wooohoo. What about us ignorant people that aint christian?

Where was your god then heh? When i begged, i cried, i pleaded..... I needed so much......... nobody gave a fuck- least of all your god.

Let me guess.... vacation?

Hey man, god works in mysterious ways... you should have repented... if you would have just had faith... it's part of god's plan.

Sorry to hear it if that's true bro. I have kids and I... oh man. That's horrible. :(

Snakelord-

Im really sorry to hear that.

No no, dont get it wrong..... It's been 5 years now- i'm not in need of sympathy. Thanks all the same but it isn't needed.

However i do think what i said deserves an answer from the religious aspect. Truthseeker: If you have those ultimate words of wisdom to share there's no better time than now.

I was very one sided..... I neglected to mention my wife and how she felt. Have you really ever seen someone fall down and cry with true want for god? What is a person to think when there is no response? Let me guess..... it's a problem on our side right? Lack of focus? Ears/heart/soul/brain not tuned in the right direction? What?

It's amazing.... The majority of religious folk, (those who weren't born into it), found their faith through tragedy. The time when we are most subsceptible, at our most mentally frail. It's not like a guy is walking along on some sunny day and hears god- the faith always arrives with car crashes, drug overdoses and the like.

I made a thread asking people when they found their faith but out of 70+ views there were only 4 unique replies. I wonder why people seem afraid or unwilling to state where that faith came from.

You and i are no different, and no matter what you might think you are not above me. So, having said that, why does god answer you but ignores my wife and i when we truly need him?

You know what i learnt through it all? I shall tell you....

I learnt that the human mind is amazing. I learnt that HUMANS are amazing. While you needed that external comfort and now spend more of your life thinking about whats above instead of focusing on whats in front of you, i realise what we have is right in front of our eyes: Each other0- mankind, humans, homo sapien. I can rely and put trust and 'faith' in my wife. She can do the same with me. Neither of us 'NEED' something external- we have found all the power in the universe; it is within us. When we were fragile we did need God. When we are in control of our own being we do not. I don't need to believe im going to live for eternity. I do not need to believe i will meet my son some day in heaven. He's dead. End of story.

I might not be all seeing, all knowing, all powerful but i am human. I am proud to be, i dont give a fuck who says that's a sin. I am damn proud to be alive, damn proud to be human. I don't need to thank anyone or anything for that- i just need to appreciate it.

And He wants you to appreciate being human. Honestly, it is not easy for me to answer your question. I've been speaking with God since I was a little kid, it is a natural thing for me. I believe children speak with God, but when they tell their parents about their "imaginary friend" the parents usually put it down. With me, that didn't happen. It was my secret all along. My parents are sweet anyways, so if I would tell them, maybe they would understand me and not put me down.

But anyways... I always wanted to have a kid. It is my life dream to be father. I don't think it is easy for you. Of course I can't even imagine what you feel. What you are saying is definetly not sinful. You are showing what's inside you and that's nice to do. But I can't give you an answer because this is above what I can comprehend right now.

If you really seek God, I would advise you to go to a church, but if anyone in a church condemn you, just go away and shake the dust out of your feet. Where you feel accepted and Loved, that's where you will find God. If a "Christian" condemns you, that person is not really a Christian. In John 8:3-11 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=JOHN+8%3A3-11&version=NASB) Jesus didn't condemn an adulterous woman. He used to eat and drink with sinners. They always felt accepted by Him. If you find a Christian, you should also feel Loved and accepted, because Christ lives in all Christians: Galatians 2:20 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=GAL+2:20&language=english&version=NASB&showfn=on&showxref=on).

I see that you seek Him, and I hope you will find Him. God doesn't ignore you. He Loves you, He Loves everybody. He is our Father and He cares about us. I will keep you in my prayers.

Love,
Nelson

And He wants you to appreciate being human.

Oh i see.... so he killed my child? Good reasoning.


I've been speaking with God since I was a little kid, it is a natural thing for me. I believe children speak with God, but when they tell their parents about their "imaginary friend" the parents usually put it down. With me, that didn't happen. It was my secret all along. My parents are sweet anyways, so if I would tell them, maybe they would understand me and not put me down.

Yesterday my three year old daughter said, (and i quote exact words): "I love Father Christmas because he got me my barbie dolls." If i never tell her he doesn't exist why would she doubt him?


But I can't give you an answer because this is above what I can comprehend right now.

Fair enough.


If you really seek God, I would advise you to go to a church

Or a Mosque, Synnagogue, Himalayan Temple........... Does he solely hang around in churches?


If you find a Christian, you should also feel Loved and accepted, because Christ lives in all Christians

In general i find christians self righteous, arrogant, ignorant, closed minded, devaluers of human ability and the human 'being'. Not my type of people. Also..... What in the world is 'accepted'? What a word to use.. Am i applying for university?

Furthermore until someone can adquately prove otherwise Christ is nothing more than a dead hippy.


I see that you seek Him, and I hope you will find Him.

No i dont. Oops... Wonder what else you see that isn't actually 'real'.


God doesn't ignore you. He Loves you, He Loves everybody.

.......... lol k.


He is our Father and He cares about us.

No, my father is some dude from Scotland. That's a fact.

You are not a father yet.... shall i tell you what a father is? Ok, here goes:

A father is someone who will talk to, love and comfort his children all the time. They do NOT need to find him, search for him, want him. He will always be there and undertake his responsibility as a father. He wont write coded messages in books, he wont drown his children- even when they're naughty and go against him, and he wont talk to his children only if they're christian.


I will keep you in my prayers.

No offence but i'd rather you didn't.

I believe that Snake's last post has officially put the athiest camp over the top! Yes ladies and gentlemen, while the debate has raged on before us for millenia.. we are the lucky few to bear witness to the actual ending of the debate due to reason's excrutiatingly slow victory over dogmatic mind control. Yes, YOU will be able to tell your grandchildren "I was there when it happend... it was really cool.". Thanks again every one for attending, don't forget to tip the athiests... for having done you a valuable service!!!!!!!!!!!

Goodnight!!!!!!!!!!!

*sigh*

Dare to dream brother.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Who said God loves like that? He doesn't abandoned me when i need most, who said that?Quite frankly, you did. At least if I understand what it is you have said. Let's see if I got it right:

What you said is that God grants people physical immunity from harm based upon the strength of their belief. Ergo he does not grant this immunity to those whose belief is less strong or foundering for some reason, essentially abandoning them for this failure.

You also stated that one cannot test God, that is, one cannot purposefully put one's self in harms way simply to prove that God will indeed protect them and that he will, in fact, withdraw his protection in such instances. I would point out that someone who would do so is either be trying to test their own convictions or impress the opinion of others. In either case, once again it seems that God withdraws the very proof of his existence from those who are in the most need.

In my opinion, this is not loving behavior. The parent does not leave their child to harm simply because the child put itself in harms way or is insecure about their protection. No. Instead this sounds like the behavior of a sociopath, valuing all others only in terms of self.

~Raithere

Originally posted by SnakeLord
He's dead. End of story.I know you were not trying to elicit sympathy but I felt like saying this none-the-less: Religion's hope rings hollow to one who has lost someone truly loved (I too know). The best they have to offer is the promise that we will meet again (unless of course one of you disbelieves). Such promises mean little in the face of grief yet many will cling to them; a drowning man will grasp any line thrown to him.

Rather than that, however, I would instead offer this: The story is never over, or at least not until humanity ends and maybe not even then. Every thing we do and say moves beyond us. The reach of a single life, no matter how brief, is infinite. Your son's life is in you and now in us, though you. There is a powerful meaning therein; life goes on and he is a part of it. I don't say this to try to minimize your loss; I cannot and would not devalue his life in that way. Instead, simply know that others share in your joy and your grief and take some solace in the fact that the measure of his life is unending.

~Raithere

TruthSeeker-

If I say that depends on belief, you will say that it doesn't, so I guess this is a pretty pointless discussion and we should stop right here...

This discussion shouldnt end on, I say, you say, give me your reasons for believing such a claim and i will respond, just dont be shocked when someone takes an opposing opinion of such a grandiose view of things. You know it is a little "different" to say the things you have said, I think it takes at least an explanation and not just you reaffirming that you believe and thats that.

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
TruthSeeker-

I think it takes at least an explanation and not just you reaffirming that you believe and thats that.

True - you explain your belief in God, Truthseeker. I bet it's more ridiculous than why all the atheists DON'T believe in God!!

(Snake - you don't have my sympathies, but I do give you my understanding. That shit sucks. )

SankeLord,


Oh i see.... so he killed my child? Good reasoning.
No He didn't.

James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "

He would never do such thing.


Yesterday my three year old daughter said, (and i quote exact words): "I love Father Christmas because he got me my barbie dolls." If i never tell her he doesn't exist why would she doubt him?
Who told her about Santa Claus? Anyone told me about God when I was 2, 3 years old. But many told me about Sanat Claus.


Or a Mosque, Synnagogue, Himalayan Temple........... Does he solely hang around in churches?
The others will give you a set of rules and tell you a bunch of things that are not necessarily true.


In general i find christians self righteous, arrogant, ignorant, closed minded, devaluers of human ability and the human 'being'. Not my type of people. Also..... What in the world is 'accepted'? What a word to use.. Am i applying for university?
Christ wasn't like that. If they are followers of Christ, they should follow Christ's steps.

"Accepted" is feel that others have interest in you and support you and so on. Is to feel Loved. It is the opposite of "condemned".


No i dont. Oops... Wonder what else you see that isn't actually 'real'.
You wrote that you were seeking Him very clearly...!


A father is someone who will talk to, love and comfort his children all the time. They do NOT need to find him, search for him, want him. He will always be there and undertake his responsibility as a father. He wont write coded messages in books, he wont drown his children- even when they're naughty and go against him, and he wont talk to his children only if they're christian.
You never had your children running away from you, have you? Well, God always had.


No offence but i'd rather you didn't.
Ok then. Again, it is your choice...

Raithere,


What you said is that God grants people physical immunity from harm based upon the strength of their belief. Ergo he does not grant this immunity to those whose belief is less strong or foundering for some reason, essentially abandoning them for this failure.
No I never said such thing. God protects you when your faith is not strong. But when you become strong in faith, He send you to work in His kingdom. Then their belief is strong and they don't fail. God never abandons anyone. Even if your faith is weak, He will help you and never abandon you.

Matthew 14:24-32
"24 But the boat was already a long distance from the land, battered by the waves; for the wind was contrary.
25 And in the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea.
26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out in fear.
27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid."
28 Peter said to Him, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water."
29 And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
32 When they got into the boat, the wind stopped."


You also stated that one cannot test God, that is, one cannot purposefully put one's self in harms way simply to prove that God will indeed protect them and that he will, in fact, withdraw his protection in such instances. I would point out that someone who would do so is either be trying to test their own convictions or impress the opinion of others. In either case, once again it seems that God withdraws the very proof of his existence from those who are in the most need.
No. People that tests Him are people that don't believe in Him. Without the belief, it just doesn't work. You have first to believe, then it will happen. If you put Him to test, is because you don't believe, so it won't work. If you do for real and an unbeliever see this, then you will be able to impress the opinion to others. The motives here are very important.

Luke 8:49-56
"49 While He was still speaking, someone came from the house of the synagogue official, saying, "Your daughter has died; do not trouble the Teacher anymore."
50 But when Jesus heard this, He answered him, "Do not be afraid any longer; only believe, and she will be made well."
51 When He came to the house, He did not allow anyone to enter with Him, except Peter and John and James, and the girl's father and mother.
52 Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep."
53 And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.
54 He, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, "Child, arise!"
55 And her spirit returned, and she got up immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat.
56 Her parents were amazed; but He instructed them to tell no one what had happened. "

And also, this is what happens when you try to test God without believing...

Acts 19:11-16
"11 God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.
13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches."
14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"
16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. "

Their motives were wrong and they didn't really believe, so that's why that happened with them.

Gizz-

True - you explain your belief in God, Truthseeker. I bet it's more ridiculous than why all the atheists DON'T believe in God!!

No, he was making a extradiordnary claim about faith being able to protect one from physical dangers. I was surprised to hear someone say such a thing. I have never heard a theist proclaim such a belief, so i was curious to how he came up with this idea. Next time Gizz learn to read and follow the arguements. Dont try to be fucking funny when you dont have a point cause you end up sounding like a desperate child.

The others will give you a set of rules and tell you a bunch of things that are not necessarily true.

This means you truthseeker! No, what am i thinking, Im talking about the infallible truthseeker,He cant be wrong, this is the person whos belief makes him beyond death!!!

You never had your children running away from you, have you? Well, God always had.

Snakelord was a real father, he was there, making his prescence known. He was not playing a game of hide and seek. That would be an example of a father that abandoned his children and moved somewhere distant without ever leaving any indication that hes still around.

No. People that tests Him are people that don't believe in Him. Without the belief, it just doesn't work. You have first to believe, then it will happen. If you put Him to test, is because you don't believe, so it won't work. If you do for real and an unbeliever see this, then you will be able to impress the opinion to others. The motives here are very important.

So he would decide to say nope ill let you suffer because im too lazy to prove to you that i exist??? Is it too hard to supply some proof when somebody is desperatly asking for help? I guess that doesnt apply to God because he seems to be a sadistic asshole. Why is it up to humans to first believe in something that provides no evidence of its existance when it is a lot easier to say "hey here i am, Im here to help you" You really are making it appear as though God loves his little egotistical mind games.

The problem with the belief in a God who is all good, all knowing, and all powerful is that one cannot exist with the conditions as they are: namely the existence of suffering. I know Im repeating a little here of what has already been said in prior arguments, but I think I can show something that most "Bible-believing" theists usually dont think of when attempting to rebut this argument (i say attempting because there has never once been a complete rebuttal offered to this claim.)

So why not? What is the holdup here? And if this argument cannot be defeated, does this mean the elimination of all belief in the Christian god is the only logical act? Well, i think not. Although im not a christian and kinda actually detest the crutch-like (or drug-like) normal use of it, I figured i would offer this rare insight on the subject.

The problem is the criteria of these three things::: being all powerful, all knowing, and all good. We know that providing the currently existing conditions actually exist, a god of this nature cannot exist. But see, the thing is that a god meeting each one of these criteria isnt even biblical. There's not one mention in the Bible as god as an "all good" being. In fact, in the Old Testament God seems almost wholey responsible for some evil things occuring: for example, it says that God was the the one who hardened Pharoah's heart, leading to in turn the destruction of every first born male in the Egyptian empire. Now, of course people will argue that's not what that meant, but when a view contrary to that of God's being responsible for the hardening of the heart is sheer interperetation. Furthermore, God calls himself "a jealous God" in another passage.

So is God an evil God? Well, I think that's a question that can only be answered through personal experience. However, that's still assuming that the god of the Bible is the one God, or atleast one of them. My mother would say that God isnt an evil god, and that he still is a God of good, but not as we (humans) woud think of good. I think that's just an easy way out. My personal belief is that God is a woman, a fan of loud guitars, and that I'm her favorite. But that's just me.

Truthseeker::: I figure you may want some verses and chapters and such things on some of the stuff i said. I can give you all of them and more, but Im pretty stoned right now, and i figured I wouldnt ruin my buzz from reading scanning about that book.


Mooseknuckle::: nice stuff, kid.

Peace:m: :bugeye:

SocialistProphet-

Thanks for the compliment, good response, very impressive stuff:m:

Oh i see.... so he killed my child? Good reasoning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No He didn't.

Fair enough. He did, he didn't, who gives a fuck?


James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

This is meant to be evidence or proof of what? From my life long studies i will be within all reason to state this explains the sun. Tha father of lights that doesn't cause darkness- that makes things live, grow and shine..... He's talking about the sun in the sky during the day. As i said earlier worship of the sun is hardly a new thing- just about every religion of old holds the sun in extreme regard. That's all James is talking about. Whether it's the sun or god it still is an answer to exactly this: Fuck all.


He would never do such thing.

How quick we are to forget the story of Noah, Lots wife, and so on and so forth. Ezekiel expresses gods hatred of man to such extent but....... As you said.... The old testament is nothing to do with you christians.... Must be a different god they were talking about. I don't care if god is malicious- it's just your blind love of someone who could be such a way. You'll never understand- you preach as you like to answer your own questions- never will you realise your own interpretations mean fuck all to anyone else.


Who told her about Santa Claus? Anyone told me about God when I was 2, 3 years old. But many told me about Sanat Claus.

The church did. They said how it was to do with christ yada yada yada. It would seem even the religious faction believe in lying when it suits their purpose and gets those of young or fragile mind to believe everything they say.


The others will give you a set of rules and tell you a bunch of things that are not necessarily true.

How convenient. Same old, same old..... They're wrong, you're right. I really hate having to stoop to such level to point out someones ignorance but boy- you just take the cake. You have ABOSLUTELY ZERO right to class other religions as mistaken, or wrong and yourself as right. To do so is simply to prove your own pathetic self righteous ignorance.


Christ wasn't like that. If they are followers of Christ, they should follow Christ's steps.

Where did i mention the dead hippy? I said: I find christians to be........ I didn't say some 2000 year old jew was, i said you were, the people who have the same ignorance you do. Them, not the dead jew.


"Accepted" is feel that others have interest in you and support you and so on. Is to feel Loved. It is the opposite of "condemned".

To feel loved? Why not say: Loved.... Accepted is a job interview, not love. But away from the petty issue why in the world would i care if you sad bunch of assholes were interested in me? You have NOTHING to offer. Shallow, self righteous, closed minded individuals with nothing to substantiate your human worth. Maybe you'll all do good in the after life- but here you're pointless.


You wrote that you were seeking Him very clearly...!

What i seek is truth. Big fucking difference.



You never had your children running away from you, have you? Well, God always had.

I take it you've never been a part of the human race? When i was a kid i got pissed off one day and ran away from home. My father came and found me....... He searched all day and all night... He never gave up- he never expected me to just 'want' to go home. he found me and instead of condemning me or having a go he gave me a hug. He worked the problems out. He did NOT shy away from his responsibility as a father. Do NOT even try to compare the pathetic nature of your god to a real father. God doesn't even come close.


Ok then. Again, it is your choice...


Absolutely.


Even if your faith is weak, He will help you and never abandon you.

I think my above last few posts clearly demonstrate you're talking utter garbage. You had no answers then- and much that i give you my respect for being the only one with the balls to try- you still couldn't manage. All of a sudden we're back to square one?? And you continue spouting absolute cobblers.


31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"

He calls himself god? Or the son of? If so why is he so ignorant to have to ask why a human would doubt? It's human nature. he'd know that if he weren't so plainly stupid. The geezer didn't even know what religion he was... think he's worth the attention? Lol, not likely.


No. People that tests Him are people that don't believe in Him. Without the belief, it just doesn't work. You have first to believe, then it will happen. If you put Him to test, is because you don't believe, so it won't work. If you do for real and an unbeliever see this, then you will be able to impress the opinion to others. The motives here are very important.

The fact remains..... all you have is talk.. One big mouth, no action. No substance other than a book, badly translated, that you then interpret to please yourself. You help no-one but pretend you do a worldwide service. How noble of you.


53 And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

I wouldn't be laughing if my child had died, regardless of what anyone said. I have proof of this.... i had to watch my child die. If someone said: "he's still alive" I wouldn't laugh about it.


56 Her parents were amazed; but He instructed them to tell no one what had happened.

And thus the author completely went against Jesus command. Tell no-one! If nobody was told how comes it's in the bible for everyone on the planet to read? Seems to me like Jesus needs to learn who to trust and who not to. I wonder if Luke is in hell for sharing this bit of info Jesus commanded not to share.


And also, this is what happens when you try to test God without believing...

Acts 19:11-16
"11 God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.
13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches."
14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"
16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. "

You call that an answer to anything? Fair enough.

All you have is an old, piss poor translated book. Nothing else. Trust it, love it, belieeeeeeeeeve it. Throw your life into a book, enjoy.

Olaus:

To me the answer lies in perspective.

"If" there is a loving all powerful God "Then" certainly she can make the small amount of suffering that I have faced in my life into somthing good.

"If" there is an eterinty of living after we die "then" 10,20 or 80 years is but a blink of the eye and is not long lasting suffering.

The above may not be true but I think it is logical.

SanakeLord,


The church did. They said how it was to do with christ yada yada yada. It would seem even the religious faction believe in lying when it suits their purpose and gets those of young or fragile mind to believe everything they say.
No. My belief is totally based in my converstations with God when I was a little kid. He taugh me a lot at that time. The first time I got a Bible I already knew what was written in it, although I had never even opened it before.


MooseKnuckle,


Snakelord was a real father, he was there, making his prescence known. He was not playing a game of hide and seek. That would be an example of a father that abandoned his children and moved somewhere distant without ever leaving any indication that hes still around.
The issue here is who abandons who. It's not God that abandons SnakeLord, it is SnakeLord that abandons God.


No, he was making a extradiordnary claim about faith being able to protect one from physical dangers. I was surprised to hear someone say such a thing. I have never heard a theist proclaim such a belief, so i was curious to how he came up with this idea. Next time Gizz learn to read and follow the arguements. Dont try to be fucking funny when you dont have a point cause you end up sounding like a desperate child.
People don't talk about that probably because they don't believe it at all. But it IS written in the Bible and I do believe it. The church of this world seems weak at this age. But it will get better...


For everything else, please read the Bible and don't twist it.

MShark,


"If" there is an eterinty of living after we die "then" 10,20 or 80 years is but a blink of the eye and is not long lasting suffering.
We always remind ourselves about that at church, both with good and bad things... :p

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
No. My belief is totally based in my converstations with God when I was a little kid. He taugh me a lot at that time. The first time I got a Bible I already knew what was written in it, although I had never even opened it before.[/B]

I'm sorry Truthseeker, but somebody has to say it:
Your arguments sound a little, um...well, crazy.
b/c they continuously refer back to when you were a little kid talking with your imaginary friend, which you totally base your belief upon.

Somebody had to say it...
And that obnoxious somebody was...

ZERO MASS

Zero Mass,

God is not my "imaginary friend". It is pretty different. Mainly when He shows Himself to be pretty alive...:eek:

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
My belief is totally based in my converstations with God when I was a little kid.
I was under the impression that God only speaks to his prophets. Are you one of them?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Zero Mass,

God is not my "imaginary friend". It is pretty different. Mainly when He shows Himself to be pretty alive...:eek:

Ok, I'll bite I guess.
Two questions and an opinion:
How did he show himself to be "pretty alive" to you?
And how do we know you are not a nut?
And the opinion: You are a nut.

ZERO MASS

TruthSeeker-


.The issue here is who abandons who. It's not God that abandons SnakeLord, it is SnakeLord that abandons God.

I see what your saying, and in your belief system its does seem like somehow Snakelord did abadon God, but you also have to admit that in that situation, God abandoned Snakelord as well. 2 wrongs do not make a right, there is no possible justification for God abandoning someone for not believing, that is quite childish. What better way to prove your existance than to reach out and help, thus eliminating doubt and at the same time creating happiness in one of his "children's" life. Basically God did abandon Snakelord, even if you think God's reasons are valid, the fact still stands that he turned his back.

For everything else, please read the Bible and don't twist it.

I dont twist the bible. I dont even quote anything from it, nor do i proclaim that I am a source of knowledge in its writings.

TRUTHSEEKER:::

in the bible, it says that god made humans to praise him. how can you see this in any other way than as narssicism?

And maybe you could tell me exactly what part of homosexuality is considered a sin? Is it the feeling and sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, or is it the act of sticking one's penis into another man's anus?

Peace. :m: :bugeye:

TruthSeeker-

No. My belief is totally based in my converstations with God when I was a little kid.

Did he actually talk to you in the conventional sense? Did you just talk and assumed that there was an entity on the receiving end, or did a voice respond to you? Because ive heard of people that hear voices............ They are called SCHIZOS!!:bugeye:

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
No I never said such thing. God protects you when your faith is not strong. But when you become strong in faith, He send you to work in His kingdom. Then their belief is strong and they don't fail. God never abandons anyone. Even if your faith is weak, He will help you and never abandon you.Did you or did you not say that if your belief is strong enough God will protect you from any harm... even a nuclear explosion?
If so my question is simply, why doesn't he protect all of us this way?

~Raithere

God does not equal God x Faith.

We suffer because we are not alone on earth. The same reason we love. Nobody ever asks: if there was a God, why is there so much love in the world?

A nuclear explosion will not show you whose faith was the strongest (it will probably look like it was the person who fired it). It will show you how far from God we really are.

God does protect us, yes. But you are so comfortable being protected by Him that you don't even thank Him for doing it. An invisible shield over everybody would be simply just this: a bubble. And most people already live in one.

What we need and are offered was salvation. And that goes far beyond circumstancial threats.

Originally posted by JenyarYou should probably have aimed that at TS rather than me. (Perhaps you meant it to be but it looks as if you are responding to me.) He has, quite literally, stated that no physical harm may come to one whose faith is strong enough. Regardless, I am confused by some of what you have said:


We suffer because we are not alone on earth. The same reason we love.Are you saying that the only reason we suffer is because of other people? That a single person, alone, would not?


Nobody ever asks: if there was a God, why is there so much love in the world?This is because relatively few people are going around stating that there is an omnipotent God who hates us and seeks to cause us unending pain. To such a person I would indeed pose that question.


A nuclear explosion will not show you whose faith was the strongest (it will probably look like it was the person who fired it). It will show you how far from God we really are.Given your beliefs, I would agree.


God does protect us, yes. But you are so comfortable being protected by Him that you don't even thank Him for doing it.What is it that he protects us from that he is not responsible for and could not eliminate entirely at whim?


An invisible shield over everybody would be simply just this: a bubble. And most people already live in one.
...
What we need and are offered was salvation. And that goes far beyond circumstancial threats.Then God's "greatest good" is not that we obey his rules or even that we believe in him but instead is our own free-will; nor will he punish us for using it.

~Raithere

And we're right back in the garden of Eden. Where we were] alone and without suffering, but being tempted to do wrong, we brought suffering on ourselves, and ultimately to each other. We suffered consequences for the first time.



Then God's "greatest good" is not that we obey his rules or even that we believe in him but instead is our own free-will; nor will he punish us for using it.

That's what I think. We are neigh-untouchable in the free-will department, but as I said elsewhere:

With the freedom of choice comes the burden of decision - and of consequence.

As a cause-and-effect scientist you can appreciate that.

The issue here is who abandons who. It's not God that abandons SnakeLord, it is SnakeLord that abandons God.


Do you know your mother and father? Let's imagine all of a sudden your mother sits down and tells you your father isn't your real father, and that guy lives on the other side of the country.

Are you guilty of 'abandoning' him if you didn't even know he was there?

If i knew there was a god i'd be christian, just like you... I don't know there is so how can i be guilty of 'abandoning'? In this instance it is your father who has abandoned you.

No matter how many futile arguments you come up with, god has no excuses.

He dumped me on this planet, abandoned me but somehow with all the limited ability us humans apparently have - he Expects, and frankly demands that we go find him.

He then kills my child to test me, yet i cant test him. You with all your worldly proof from talking to imaginary friends as a child know 100% you will survive a nuclear bomb, have eternal love from god and will live for eternity in heaven- all because a shepherd said so. Even though that shepherd was only writing down older stories based on completely different beliefs. He changed them to suit his own beliefs and now you do the same. This shows utter lack of validity.

You don't even need athiests, agnostics etc.... I've noticed the contradictions in all religious folks posts. This shows beyond reasonable doubt that we are unique. As such we interpret things to our own needs, not the needs of mankind. If every other christian disagrees with you on some things, agrees with you on others who's to say who's right, if anyone? Not to mention the thousands of other beliefs that you, without actual concious thought, are more than happy to just piss on. They are wrong- you know that. You are right- You know that too. Don't you see the problem with that?

And here you come preaching to us who are wrong. Telling us if we believe we can drink poison, telling us it's ok if our children die because jesus loves us. All because you heard a voice when you were 3.

You then sidestep 90% of the bible because it contradicts everything else you say. You claim how loving god is because the bible says so but then hide from the malicious nature of flooding, turning into salt and other destructions caused solely by the one you claim to be all loving. How can you just pick and choose like that? It's preposterous. You then accuse people of abandoning something we dont even know. Ok you heard voices as a kid but can't even you see how unsubstantial that actually is?

You claim god didn't kill my son by pasting a bible passage that is most likely talking of the sun. Even if it's not in reference to the sun it isn't an answer to my question, and nowhere in that bit of text does it show god didn't kill my son. You tell people not to twist the bible then do exactly the same thing yourself.

All we're left with is a question you couldn't, and still can't answer. Again i give you my respect for being the only religious person to try- but the fact remains you failed. You then as a last resort turn round and attempt to lay blame on me. Frankly i think that's fucking sick.

SnakeLord,

Do you remember anything when you were 2 or 3 years old?

Raithere,


If so my question is simply, why doesn't he protect all of us this way?
If you don't believe He even exist, how can He protect you at all?

Read the Bible. You and everyone else. It's a waste of time to discuss what is written if you yourselves don't now what is written.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
It's a waste of time to discuss what is written...

I totally agree.

ZERO MASS

"Evil is the primal instinct of man and women to enable procreation amoung there fellow contestants.....a fact of life as is "good"is also essential in the balance of stopping us killing each other to extinction!!"
uncle tone x x x x x

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
If you don't believe He even exist, how can He protect you at all?So his power is contingent upon my belief in him?


Read the Bible. You and everyone else. It's a waste of time to discuss what is written if you yourselves don't now what is written.I have read the Bible more than most Christians and quite likely more than you have. I have read it cover to cover 3 times; studied specific books, chapters, and passages more times than I can count and done so in pretty much all of the English translations. I have sought out independent Hebrew, Greek, and Latin lexical references. I have read the non-canonical gospels numerous times, secular and religious articles regarding the Bible, Biblical Archaeology, and History including both of Asimov's Biblical histories. I have read numerous books and article regarding religions and societies that were contemporary and preceeded those in the Bible. Not to mention being raised amongst both the Catholic and Protestant traditions.

So if you cannot tell, I am quite well versed in the Biblical texts, and rather offended by your presumption.

The questions I am asking have no more to do with specific Biblical references than does your personal theology. You're quite obviously dodging the question and have been for some time now. Your argument is logically flawed and doesn't even make sense within the context of the Bible. You have selected a few passages that appeal to you and built a personal theology around them that really has nothing to do with either the Bible or reality.

~Raithere

SnakeLord,

Do you remember anything when you were 2 or 3 years old?


Yes i do. Lots in fact. Is this relevant to anything?

Originally posted by TONE
"Evil is the primal instinct of man and women to enable procreation amoung there fellow contestants.....a fact of life as is "good"is also essential in the balance of stopping us killing each other to extinction!!"
uncle tone x x x x x
uncle Tone pentax,

welcome to sciforums..!

with amusing view..!

TruthSeeker-

f you don't believe He even exist, how can He protect you at all?

The only way he can exercise his power is if you believe? wow this God of yours is sounding more and more like a weakling. So he just cant possibly say "look here i am, let your doubts dissapear for I am here for you" nope thats way too hard for a supreme being, what am i thinking??? jeez. Am I more powerful than God?? cause i can help people that didnt know I existed untill the moment when I helped them out( instance of helping strangers out) Even if they heard of this really sexy and cool kid named Tim, and denied that I exist, I could go to them and say "hey man, need help?" and then their doubts go out the window.

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
Gizz-

No, he was making a extradiordnary claim about faith being able to protect one from physical dangers. I was surprised to hear someone say such a thing. I have never heard a theist proclaim such a belief, so i was curious to how he came up with this idea. Next time Gizz learn to read and follow the arguements. Dont try to be fucking funny when you dont have a point cause you end up sounding like a desperate child.

Oh well I'm so sorry I bust in on your little parade!! I can read perfectly well, thank you - can you? I have been quietly following this thread, and have found Truthseekers posts to be very intriguing although rather extreme, which I was trying to tell him! I don't think he's wrong or right, and I certainly wasn't trying to slag him off for what he was saying!! I think you have a lot of pent up anger going on, mate - you should go and learn some manners! Thiest, or atheist, your intollerence is quite obtusive! Ha, I think I'd get a more intelligent reply from God! :D

Gizz-

My apologies for hurting your feelings.

True - you explain your belief in God, Truthseeker. I bet it's more ridiculous than why all the atheists DON'T believe in God!!

I responded to his claim about belief being able to protect one from physical harm and then you respond with this. Many others responded in the same fashion as myself, I simply wanted him to explain why he believed in this claim, I dont think that was out of hand by any means. Gizzum, dont tell me you dont think immunity from physical harm by means of belief does not need to be explained. Just remember you started this, by being a sarcastic jerk for no reason. Dont get defensive, simply read this and understand where im coming from. No need for a rebuttal.

Zero Mass,

This was my post:

It's a waste of time to discuss what is written if you yourselves don't now what is written.
Stop twisting my words and the words of the Bible. Really... I'm wasting my time here. You and everyone else is just interested in twisting my words and the Word of God. It is totally pointless to discuss with you, people...:bugeye: I'm not wasting my time anymore.

TruthSeeker-

Dont give up, even though I might not agree with your views, I can appreciate that they are very interesting and informative.

God: that which is the process of its own creation.

Being able to understand certain processes that are completely invariable requires one to make a few shifts in mental orientation. Obverse/reverse understandings are necessary to understand certain processes. Considering a vanishing inertia-free craft is done from the point of view of a passenger and of one left behind watching the departure. The change in voice in describing the event defines the quality of a third perspective which includes *the observer and the observed*. This third perspective can be said to be that of consciousness. This third perspective is that within which one must be able to resolve and is tantamount to the mirror itself or to that which affords duality. One must be comfortable as that which one images. One cannot be self conscious. God Almighty is not self conscious. Absolute vacuum, the eleventh dimension is not an assemblage of dichotomies; rather, He, it, is the divisor.
Such orientation serves the student and the person who must live through these times without falling victim to the many pitfalls presently being installed for our own individual distraction and undoing.


H-[||]

So is God an evil God? Well, I think that's a question that can only be answered through personal experience.

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God..."

"Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children..... Defile the temple and fill the courts with slain. Go!...."

What else...

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the apple or they would instantly die. The serpent said they wouldn't.... The serpent was right. God was a liar.

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain..." (God has a heart? Doesn't that possibly suggest mortality?) "...I will wipe makind, whom i have created, from the face of the earth.."

"Then the Lord rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah.... but Lots wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt"

The ten plagues.... (you know what he did there)

Feast of Tabernacles .... (why does god need cows, sheep and virgin women as offerings?)

"The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the book of the Law until you are destroyed... Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.."

"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."

Those are His words, (according to religious folk).

So many acts of unspeakable evil- so many sinful attitudes and emotions God should not promote- and that's not even a tenth of the book.

Any responses?

... behavior that hurts others..and this behavior can stem from disease, genetics, childhood abuse resulting in one heck of a messed up nueronal system.. ..

evil is a word..pegged by religions..i think the best word that is like evil is..deceit.

a human being is made from his genetics to his senses..the all of him to be a truth seeker and deceit believed as truth can screw up a healthy brain and nervous system. take for example, those comet followers..or other cults... taliban believers, terrorists followers... deceit can mess up the potential of a beautiful mind.

so while i don't believe in 'evil' per se.. i do believe in deceit. Unless you are some satan worshiper ..or sadist.. then i guess you have believed deceit so bad..i suppose you are then evil.

One day, God and Satan were having a session and discussing the most suitable destiny for mankind.

Suddenly, Satan looked up at the Lord and said
"I've got it! - let's make man decide *his own future!*"

And so it was.

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle

My apologies for hurting your feelings.

Just remember you started this, by being a sarcastic jerk for no reason. Dont get defensive, simply read this and understand where im coming from. No need for a rebuttal. [/B]

Ok, I'll quit the sarcasm. :rolleyes: Well at least I didn't get sworn at I suppose...

Alright, so maybe my original post was a little glib, I'll admit. And I understand where you're coming from, but I wasn't really aiming my thoughts at you though - I was trying to make a point to Truthseeker about his extreme views (and although it did come across a little harsh, it wasn't intended to offend, or 'start' anything!) But yes, you're right it did sound like a bit of an annoyed poke at anyone who would pay attention...
So is my initiation over? My arse hurts from all the paddling!
;)

Gizz-

Thanks for the response, and thanks for clarifying things. I am gulity as well because I dont think I understood the sarcasm to the extend to illicit such a response as I posted. Sorry for my uncivilized behavior, and once again I thank you for acting in such a dignified manner.

Moose -

Cool, appreciated - I think maybe we were both just having a bad day or something? (I know I was!!)

Now, what were we all talking about again? Oh yes: God is.............
.................... Oh sod it - I'm going for a beer!!