http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4416254.stm

Last Updated: Tuesday, 8 November 2005, 06:29 GMT


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Australia foils 'terror attack'



About 500 police took part in the raids in Sydney and Melbourne

Australian police say they have foiled a terrorist attack in the final stages of its preparation, after 16 people were arrested in Sydney and Melbourne.

New South Wales police chief Ken Moroney said a "potentially catastrophic attack" had been averted.

One suspect was shot and wounded during a raid in Sydney. Chemicals, weapons, and computers were seized, police said.

The operation came nearly a week after Australia's anti-terror laws were changed to give police greater powers.

Police raided 23 houses in Sydney and Melbourne early on Tuesday, as part of the country's largest ever counter-terrorism operation.

The raids involved about 500 police officers and followed a 16-month investigation, officials said.

"I'm satisfied that we have disrupted what I would regard as the final stages of a large-scale terrorist attack, or the launch of a terrorist attack," Mr Moroney told Australia's ABC radio.

Court appearances

Those arrested in Melbourne include Abu Bakr, an outspoken Algerian-Australian cleric who has in the past praised Osama Bin Laden as "a great man".

He was among nine men who appeared in court in the city on Tuesday, and were charged with membership of a "terrorist organisation".


Each of the members of the group are committed to the cause of violent jihad



Richard Maidment
Prosecutor


Prosecutor Richard Maidment told the court the men had formed a terrorist group to kill "innocent men and women in Australia".

He claims they received military-style training in rural Australia and had discussions about bomb-making.

Those arrested in Sydney are also due to appear in court.

"The members of the Sydney group have been gathering chemicals of a kind that were used in the London Underground bombings," Mr Maidment said, adding that Abu Bakr was the ringleader of both the Melbourne and Sydney groups.

Police said one of the suspects in Sydney was shot and seriously wounded after they came under fire. They said the suspect had refused orders to surrender.

There was no immediate comment from those arrested.

US ally

Police declined to give details of the likely target of the attack, but Victoria state police chief Christine Nixon said next year's Commonwealth Games, to be held in the city, were not a target.



Prime Minister John Howard said the arrests vindicated the government's decision to rush through amendments to the anti-terror laws.

"This country has never been immune from a possible terrorist attack," he said in a televised news conference.

"It's important that we continue to mobilise all of the resources of the commonwealth and the states to fight terrorism."

The changes were enacted on Thursday, to make it easier for police to prosecute suspects believed to be planning attacks.

Mr Howard at the time said he had received credible intelligence of a "terrorist threat".

Australia is a key ally of the US in its "war on terror", and has sent troops to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There has never been a major terrorist attack on Australian soil, although 88 Australians died in the 2002 Bali bombings, and Australia's embassy in Indonesia was bombed in 2004.
***********

The new war on terror hits oz shores, but dont worry all religons are doing these things.

The occupied lands of australia the war has begun, for them to claim there lands back like israel palestine, it is another just cause.

The earth is theres we are all occupying there lands we must give them back, im all for it.

A chemical weapons attack in OZ, now theres a 1st are some posters here horrified, and now getting patriotic about how dare they attack us.

You guys were so close to being a victim, maybe now you can see why brits and yanks already a victim of this madness, are so pissed of about it all.


**
And full credit to OZ police, what a amazing job something the brits could learn from, probably too busy doing the times crossword & playing polo at MI5, as there intelligence network failed.

Why are the media so eager to forget the bombing of the sydney hilton hotel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilton_bombing

But yes, kudos to our police for doing something preventative.

if these people don't respect our culture, our country, why the fuck are they living here?

And full credit to OZ police, what a amazing job something the brits could learn from, probably too busy doing the times crossword & playing polo at MI5, as there intelligence network failed.
It is all that morris dancing you English do Vincent , do you feel embarrasse at being English Vincent ?
http://www.digiserve.com/peter/morrisd.jpg

if these people don't respect our culture, our country, why the fuck are they living here?
Ask the Aborigines the same question , I have .

But the Aborigines were here first, so they have a right to be here, even if their culture is different.
The aborigines didn't come here after the white settlers, looking for a better life.

And for those who say Austraila was attacked because of there support for the iraq war, simple answer why was bali attacked, indonesia never supported the war in iraq, why was there a terroist attack foiled in singapore 2 years ago, they never sent troops to iraq.

To find justification for terroist acts is easy, but the hard truth is, there can never be justification for killing innocent people, the ira mostly attacked political figures or army figures in there attacks, these new breed of terroists seem only interested in attacking the public, what have we done to them, there fight is with our governments.

But the Aborigines were here first, so they have a right to be here, even if their culture is different.
The aborigines didn't come here after the white settlers, looking for a better life.

Perhaps he is referring to the fact that the White Settlers arrived in Australia and completely disrespected and damaged the Aborigines culture and territory, and chose to stay and apply their own instead.

It is all that morris dancing you English do Vincent , do you feel embarrasse at being English Vincent ?

Brian i am not a brit fanatic, i know there are massive things that are wrong with britain, mainly the upper class pricks that run the country and sit in courtrooms with womens wigs on there heads.

As for morris dancing hey im all for any form of relaxation be it tai chi, hypnosis, anything to calm the animal instinct in all of us.

I see you ignored the point of this thread totally, and instead attacked me, does that say something about you brian, why do you ignore terroism, unless that terroism is by bush as you say, you side with *ran a country that condones the massacre of israel, killing millions there that is there wish, there presidents the current one, and the one before have both said it, are you a *uslim brian, who has adopted a uk sounding name to play boths sides.

""And for those who say Austraila was attacked because of there support for the iraq war, simple answer why was bali attacked, """

To kill westerners, for invading afghanistan and iraq.

"""there can never be justification for killing innocent people, the ira mostly attacked political figures or army figures in there attacks, these new breed of terroists seem only interested in attacking the public, what have we done to them, there fight is with our governments."""

And our fight was with Saddams government, but our public has complicitly supported its government in these wars, which in case you havent realised, have cost the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people.
Reliable estimates of innocent civilians killed in Iraq range from 30,000 - 100,000.

""And for those who say Austraila was attacked because of there support for the iraq war, simple answer why was bali attacked, """

To kill westerners, for invading afghanistan and iraq.

"""there can never be justification for killing innocent people, the ira mostly attacked political figures or army figures in there attacks, these new breed of terroists seem only interested in attacking the public, what have we done to them, there fight is with our governments."""

And our fight was with Saddams government, but our public has complicitly supported its government in these wars, which in case you havent realised, have cost the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people.
Reliable estimates of innocent civilians killed in Iraq range from 30,000 - 100,000.

So you are justifying the attack on oz invovement in iraq & afghan

What about the attacks in bali, the attempted attack in singapore a very peaceful country, whats the justification there, answers please

Along as you & others find justification for there acts the longer there attacks will continue....

1000 posts, when do i get my left wing badge, or space cadet hat.
Or my 2week all expenses paid vacation in Iran, as promised by the management of this forum, for pretending to be right wing, so as to keep the forum balanced, i am packing my bullet proof vest, and i have bought a false beard to fit in with the locals, i await my air tickets, and free accomadation in a loving *uslim home.
I am forwarding my address for you to send it to me.

What about the attacks in bali

"Imam Samudra listed 13 reasons for the attack, including revenge for what he called "the barbarity of the US army of the cross and its allies England, Australia and so on," and their role in the war in Afghanistan, Four Corners said"

I think he also said Australia was targeted for their association with America, and its involvement in East Timor’s change to independence from Indonesia in 1999.


Along as you & others find justification for there acts the longer there attacks will continue....

It isn't justification, it's a reason.
It can't be justified, but it can be given a reason, no matter how unmerited it may seem.

Huwy no we certainly didnt, little johnny was more interested in what bush wanted than what we did and thats the truth, pitty australians are to dumb to rember that when election time comes around

Huwy no we certainly didnt, little johnny was more interested in what bush wanted than what we did and thats the truth, pitty australians are to dumb to rember that when election time comes around
So your saying the entire voting population forgot about the iraq war when they voted for howard, it just slipped there minds, as these things do, or could it be they all have a bit more intelligence than you give them credit fore, and that they either felt the war was just at the time, or siding with america was in there interest in terms of america being the most inportant allie to them.

Could it be you are in the minority, and your fellow ozzies are in the majority in there support for howard and the iraq war, before the war the percentage in oz were in favour of it.

So being in the minority on this issue, and on howard do we have some common situation here, that you are a person in the minority, being in the minority does that mean you are right, and the majority is wrong here, because history has shown minorities are loose cannons, thats why we have the united nations to unite the majority of the people in the world.

How about a new organization the minority nations, that way all the people of the world with a minority opinion can have there say too.

And maybe we can have new world leaders too, the popular leaders voted by the majority, and a special minority leader voted in by the people with esp of the minority world.

Actually, Asguard, there was no clear majority either for or against our involvement in Iraq at the time we became so. What "we" wanted is NOT what you think it is, you misguided, uninformed twit.

You know... I'm almost at the point where I hope you and your kind prevail in the end. I really do. Because when it all comes crashing down around your ears, when everything you know disappears and your world changes forever, when your ilk finally succeed in pulling down whatever passes for strong leaders in this world and replace them with weak willed copies of yourselves, when your protests that you were sympathetic to their cause fall on deaf ears and you discover you have no place in their world either... that's when I'm going to have the most honest, heartfelt laugh I've had in a long, long time.

It would be the final proof that none of this made sense, nor was it ever meant to. It would be beautiful.

before the war the percentage in oz were in favour of it.

How many percent are in favour of it now, then?

And I don't know of one person who was in favour of it...
It seems to me that most people did oppose the war, and little johnny too, so I can't understand why they keep voting him in, either.

would you like to point out exactly WHERE howard is thinking about the people who voted for him?

ill take any law you like, which laws actually help anyone. NONE thats the whole point but for some reason people seem to think that no unfair dismissal is good, detention of political persons is good (wonder how long till the oposition leader gets arested because that is exactly how those laws read), making us a target is good, screwing small business (i know at least 2 small business owners who hate his guts for the amount of paperwork they now have to do because of him) come on where? Problem is we just dont care

(wonder how long till the oposition leader gets arested because that is exactly how those laws read)
Do you see how extreme you are, opposition leaders being arrested in OZ, you are so anti-world governments you make a ridiculous comment like that, yes this happens in zimbabwe or burma, but australia are you for real, do you live in a nuclear bunker too.

There very reason you exist today apart from your parents, is the fact you are living in a wealthy country that takes care of its citizens, you should think yourself damn lucky you were not born in burma, or zimbabwe.

boy you do have a hard life in OZ, what has the government done to you apart from, not giving power of the country to you, that has so upset you have they broke your colouring pencils.

Latham says US alliance makes Australia more of a terrorist target (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2005/s1463058.htm)
MARK LATHAM: Well, I think we should have a look at how New Zealand has made itself the safest country in the world. There's no terrorist threat to New Zealand that's been identified, but one here, because if you go supporting bad American policy you make yourself a bigger target and you stir dissent in your own country.

Its time we cut America and its war on terror loose , Australia take note this war on terror is turning our citizens against each other .

Poor little Brian - he's realising the same problems that Britain has experienced for years - get over it Bri !

and full credit to OZ police, what a amazing job something the brits could learn from, probably too busy doing the times crossword & playing polo at MI5, as there intelligence network failed.

Not to mention shooting innocent Brazilians in the head.

That brazilian was guilty of overstaying, his vis ran out, he ran because he new he was a illegal immigrant, he did everthing a criminal does when they evade the police.

If he had left when his time was up, he would not have been shot 2 years later would he, its that simple, i never stay a day over my 3 month limit in thailand, if i do overstay and i got shot for it, thats my hard luck, obey the lawwwwwwwwwwwww .

i know the vast majority of the left wingers here have had run ins with the police, me i have had none, respect the law.

As I understood it, he wasn't on an expired visa. Do you have any articles that he was an illegal?

Hahahaha You Don't You Filthy British Liar! Stupid Queen Worshipping Queer!! Ahahaha You Are So Wrong And Racist!!! No Wonder You Fools Lost All Your Colonies And The Us Ownz J00!!

That brazilian was guilty of overstaying, his vis ran out, he ran because he new he was a illegal immigrant, he did everthing a criminal does when they evade the police.

You wouldn't be justifying his death by any chance, would you?
If you are, why is his death justifiable, and those who died in the Bali attacks not? They all died from the problems terrorism cause, did they not?

That brazilian was guilty of overstaying, his vis ran out, he ran because he new he was a illegal immigrant, he did everthing a criminal does when they evade the police.
.

FUCKING BIRTISH terrorist, who the fuck give you right to shoot people in the head EVEN if he was on a exipred visa. You fuckers just are triger happy, see a brown man and start shooting. Please show any article where it says he was on a expired visa, fucking liars.

Radical Muslims' CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY bloody Jihad, are the only ones to be blamed for that Brazilian, it's terrorism stupid!

Today, the only ones that kill in the name of religion are Muslims.

They SHOUT so "proudly' <sic>:



ALLAH U AKHBAR!
A disabled woman is set ablaze in Paris.

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
Arab Muslim shout at their "holy" Rape in Australia (2002).

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
Christian girls' throats cut in Indonesia.

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
Decapitating tourists in the Philippines

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
Korean, American etc. civilians throats cut in Iraq.

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
Kids in Beslan school murdered in cold blood.

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
Babies blown off to pieces in Israel (with pre 'Allah-Akbar' videos self recordings to leave as a "present" for mommy vicious palestine that pushed genocide bomber to massacre (http://www.geocities.com/guiltypalestinianteachersparents)).

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
Youth in Bali murdered in cold blood.

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
Airline attendants throats' cut, bloody boom into 3,000 innocent people - 9/11.

ALLAH U AKHBAR!
and on...

http://wnd.com

vincent:


The occupied lands of australia the war has begun, for them to claim there lands back like israel palestine, it is another just cause.

I don't think you understand this brand of extremism. Maybe you should research their goals more thoroughly.


And full credit to OZ police, what a amazing job something the brits could learn from, probably too busy doing the times crossword & playing polo at MI5, as there intelligence network failed.

In fact, the Australian police are taking cues from the British, learning from how Britain dealt with the latest terrorist bombings in London etc.

Really, vincent, do some research.


And for those who say Austraila was attacked because of there support for the iraq war, simple answer why was bali attacked, indonesia never supported the war in iraq, why was there a terroist attack foiled in singapore 2 years ago, they never sent troops to iraq.

What was attacked in Bali? A club which was a known gathering place for tourists from countries such as Australia.


So your saying the entire voting population forgot about the iraq war when they voted for howard, it just slipped there minds, as these things do, or could it be they all have a bit more intelligence than you give them credit fore, and that they either felt the war was just at the time, or siding with america was in there interest in terms of america being the most inportant allie to them.

It was rather more complex than that. Australians didn't vote Howard in on one issue only. Many people you were against Australia's involvement in Iraq still voted for the Howard government.

Educate yourself, vincent.

James R!

In your mentioning of "research", Are you refering to the "occupation" as an excuse (terrorism started before that you know), or to the forced conversion dream by Jihadists Muslims? (backed by many 'moderates' or at least have their understanding green light to it).

As to your "excuse" or "explanation" of targeting Bali beacuse of frequent Australians, are you really convinced that for a Jihadi it really matters if you are a Christian from Australia, a Jew from Israel, a Christian from (let's pick latest example) anti-iraqi-war: France or to a Christian from (let's pick latest example) anti-iraqi-war: Belgium?

If you do, it's either:

1) You have little contact with Arabs in Europe (I do have much contacts).

2) Limited real info on Jihadists org.

The point is they'll continue their war on the west anyhow, but they'll strategically pick the spots that you COULD say "oh it was for that", and now by (us in the west) giving in to their strategy it only helps their bloody crimes.

Another example, Why were 10 Arabs among the blood thirsty Chechens at the Beslan Kids masscre?
Did those Arabs seek to fight for their "homeland" in Non-Arab Cherchnya (just as mass-nurderer: Arafat that was born in Egypt and appeared as a "palestinian" f...g liberator) ?

PS
Wonder why Spanish police keep finding Islamists' plots, since they've retreated already from Iraq after Islamic massacre in madrid.
Hmm.

BTW
How is enslaving non Arabs in Sudan (yes no Iraqi-War excuse here either) & butchering 2,000,000 of them any different than other Arab/Muslim radical crimes global wide?

James R!

In your mentioning of "research", Are you refering to the "occupation" as an excuse (terrorism started before that you know), or to the forced conversion dream by Jihadists Muslims? (backed by many "moderates' or at least have their understanding green light to it).

As to your "excuse" or "explanation" of targeting Bali beacuse of frequent Australians, are you really convinced that for a Jihadi it really matters if you are a Christian from Australia, a Jew from Israel, a Christian from (let's pick latest example) anti-iraqi-war: France or to a Christian from (let's pick latest example) anti-iraqi-war: Belgium?

If you do, it's either:

1) You have little contact with Arabs in Europe (I do have much contacts).

2) Limited real info on Jihadists org.

The point is they'll continue their war on the west anyhow, but they'll strategically pick the spots that you COULD say "oh it was for that", and now by (us in the west) giving in to their startegy it only helps their bloody crimes.

PS
Wonder why Spanish police keep finding Islamists' plots, since they've retreated already from Iraq after Islamic massacre in madrid.
Hmm.

BTW
How is enslaving non Arabs in Sudan (yes no Iraqi-War excuse here either) & bucthering 2,000,000 of them any different than other Arab/Muslim radical crimes global wide?

What is going on in France Keewee? I wonder if you can shed some light? :o

Kiwi:


In your mentioning of "research", Are you refering to the "occupation" as an excuse (terrorism started before that you know), or to the forced conversion dream by Jihadists Muslims?

I don't think you've been following the thread. Maybe you should ask vincent what he was referring to. Try reading his post to see what I was responding to.


As to your "excuse" or "explanation" of targeting Bali beacuse of frequent Australians, are you really convinced that for a Jihadi it really matters if you are a Christian from Australia, a Jew from Israel, a Christian from (let's pick latest example) anti-iraqi-war: France or to a Christian from (let's pick latest example) anti-iraqi-war: Belgium?

I don't know. I imagine that they are particularly upset about the US-led wars in Afganistan and Iraq, and the countries which supported those wars.

I don't think radical terrorists are particularly rational people, but they do prioritise their targets, I am sure.

skywalker.

What is going on all over the world (at radical Jihadists hands)? I wonder if you can shed some light? :cool:

skywalker.

What is going on all over the world (at radical Jihadists hands)? I wonder if you can shed some light? :cool:

i wouldnt know, how about you tell me what is going on in france?

Middleeastern Skywalker -- What is going on in Jordan not-knower? Hadith genious? Some light-shedding please?

Well since you are so insisting.
Let me give you a hint (prepare you answer to say "you don't understand"),

the very same Radical Islamists' CRIMES that is upon:


American Victims (9/11 and before)

Russian Victims (Beslan - just an example)

Indian Victims (too long of a list)

Israeli Victims (oh, too long to list here the massacres, here plays radical arab racism a role too)

Kurdish Victims (in Iraq, Syria etc., here plays radical arab racism a role too)

Berber Victims (in Morocco, Algeria etc., here plays radical arab racism a role too)

Christian Lebanese Victims (Damour etc.)

Nigerian Victims (Christian Nigerian in their hands)

Sudanese Victims (biggest calamty since WW2, slavery and massacring of 2,000,000 people))

E. Timor Victims

Chinese Victims (Indonesia)

Malucco Victims (by Islamists, in Ambon)

PhilippineVictims (Decapitations)

French Victims (1985 underground trains)

Spanish Victims (Madrid Bombing)

Egyptian Christians ( www.copts.com )

Native black Egytians (racism!!!)

Australian Victims (Bali)

German Victims (Caffe LaBelle)

Thai Victims (Bombing)

Italian Victims (in Iraq)

Swiss Victims (in Luxor Egypt terror bombing)

Ugandan Victims (by Islamic brutal tyrant Idi Amin)

Japanese Victims (in Iraq)

Korean Victims (in Iraq)

UN Victims (in Iraq)

Upon their own people

Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, palestinians on palestinians, now in Jordan, etc.



============================

[repeated material deleted]

Actually the "Occupation" of American forces, and the occupation of Israel in Palestine has been going on since the end of WW2.
Not giving an excuse, just a possible explaination.

The term terrorism actually originally refered to a method of control by fear, used by a goverment against its own people.

Huwy, (I am not even going into this "occupation" myth, palestinians were never independent in a self ruled country!, Jews were there ages ago before them, but for the sake of the argument, let's say that it's as you put it...) Even as an "explanation" it's totally invalid, they started killing native Jews already in 1929 (Hebron massacre) before any "occupation" was invented., so it's not even an "explanation", much less an excuse.
Plus
What about Sudan, Nigeria, Indonesia, Egypt, India,Philippines, East Timor, Lebanon (on Christian Lebanese) , Arab racism on Kurds & on Berbers for so many generations etc.?

Again, it's imperative to bust the "palestinian" myths as well as other so called "explanations", because they attempt to use it as a cosmetic cover in their war on the entire world.

PS
Did you notice I didn't use the term "terrorism"? (that is relative to your last comment)

How many know of the 15,000,000 (by Hindus' account) Indians killed by Islamic Jihad in recent history?

Middleeastern Skywalker -- What is going on in Jordan not-knower? Hadith genious? Some light-shedding please?

Well since you are so insisting.
Let me give you a hint (prepare you answer to say "you don't understand"),

the very same Radical Islamists' CRIMES that is upon:


American Victims (9/11 and before)

Russian Victims (Beslan - just an example)

Indian Victims (too long of a list)

Israeli Victims (oh, too long to list here the massacres, here plays radical arab racism a role too)

Kurdish Victims (in Iraq, Syria etc., here plays radical arab racism a role too)

Berber Victims (in Morocco, Algeria etc., here plays radical arab racism a role too)

Christian Lebanese Victims (Damour etc.)

Nigerian Victims (Christian Nigerian in their hands)

Sudanese Victims (biggest calamty since WW2, slavery and massacring of 2,000,000 people))

E. Timor Victims

Chinese Victims (Indonesia)

Malucco Victims (by Islamists, in Ambon)

PhilippineVictims (Decapitations)

French Victims (1985 underground trains)

Spanish Victims (Madrid Bombing)

Egyptian Christians ( www.copts.com )

Native black Egytians (racism!!!)

Australian Victims (Bali)

German Victims (Caffe LaBelle)

Thai Victims (Bombing)

Italian Victims (in Iraq)

Swiss Victims (in Luxor Egypt terror bombing)

Ugandan Victims (by Islamic brutal tyrant Idi Amin)

Japanese Victims (in Iraq)

Korean Victims (in Iraq)

UN Victims (in Iraq)

Upon their own people

Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, palestinians on palestinians, now in Jordan, etc.



============================

[repeated material deleted]


So agian, what is going on in france? You never asnwere my question? and since when did I become middle eastern vinie.

Skywalker, as I said, prepare the answer that you [i]don't[/] understand, it's ok, you don't have to admit, unless you are obliged to lie to the infidels as we know.

Hey I'm not saying Islam isn't a violent religion with Jihad at its core.
Islam hasn't contributed a single thing to science, while Israel has.

I'm not saying muslims aren't violent either.
But the west isn't setting a much better example - giving them tens of thousands of reasons to retaliate....

Islam hasn't contributed a single thing to science, while Israel has.

Huh? What about those pesky arabic numerals we all use, for starters?

Well, actually, the Hindus were the ones who developed that number system. The Arabs merely lent it to the Brits.

They did do a whole lot in the field of mathematics and navigations (astrolabe, for instance). Simply put, Arabs (Muslims, if you like) passed the academic torch to Europe. No doubt.

They never did quite get a handle on politics and government though.

Simply put, Arabs (Muslims, if you like) passed the academic torch to Europe. No doubt.

Well, yeah, they passed it alright ....literally. They passed it and never continued the studies ...just dropped it like a hot potato in the sand.

Baron Max

BM, lol.

Are you people seriously saying that christians like george w bush don't ALSO kill in the name of god?

Are you people seriously saying that christians like george w bush don't ALSO kill in the name of god?

Ahhh, no, he doesn't! Nor did the US congress use that to vote to go to war, either.

If you think so, do you have any evidence of it?

Baron Max

"Chemicals, weapons, and computers"

chemicals? yes, they were confiscated, but they were legal chemcials with practical uses
weapons? not as such, i mean, the chemicals could have been used as weapons, but so can pretty much anything.

computers? yes, im sure they were taken. but people are still allowed to own computers

do you have a single piece of evidence to suggest that these men were terrorists?

"Ahhh, no, he doesn't! Nor did the US congress use that to vote to go to war, either."
i did a google search for
"george bush" god

first result
www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/ stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml "God told me to invade Iraq, Bush tells Palestinian ministers"

second result
www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html
"George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'"
"George Bush has claimed
he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq"

third result
news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article317805.ece
"President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack
Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan"

Hmm, I was just thinking (which is something that I don't do a lot of!) .....What's the range of penalties in Aussie Land for "attempted terrorism"? I'd also be curious about how the prosecution can prove that they were actually planning to do it ...instead of just "joking around"?

Baron Max

Alain,
Some of the chemicals found were peroxide and acetone.
Are you aware of any common legal uses of kilograms of peroxide and acetone?

People are allowed to own computers, however if they were using those computers to plan an attack?

Alain, Are you aware that instructions for the construction of a bomb were found on those computers?

Of course George Bush is crazy. I am more frightened of his thousands of nukes and his ability to damage the reputation of the Western nations than of any terrorists.
However these individuals who were arrested also appear to be crazy.

i did a google search for "george bush" god ...

Did god also tell the US congress to approve the nation going to war???

Baron Max

Baron Max, I would suspect some of them would face deportation, and others if found guilty would face a maximum of 10-25 years.

They also have phone taps talking about "wanting to become martyrs" btw.

Read here.
Suspect 'discussed martyrdom'
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/suspect-discussed-martyrdom/2005/11/08/1131407613325.html

Of course god didnt tell congress that, Bush and his admin knowingly lied about WMDs and links to al qaeda to convince them.

Now we are all waiting to be bombed. Gee I'm so grateful. (NOT)

..., Bush and his admin knowingly lied about WMDs and links to al qaeda to convince them.

Not according to the info that I've been reading about! They had the same intelligence as the administration did. But then, we both will believe whichever way we want, won't we?

Baron Max

Don't tell me that.
I had "intelligence" which proved saddam had no WMDs, BEFORE THEY EVEN INVADED IRAQ.

Powell and Rice both stating he had no WMDs in 2001, before sept 11.
How can you argue with that? Huh?

Michael Moore and John Pilger both use that same footage in their documentaries.
They have only recently taken it off the state.gov website.
Fancy that, all these years having proof of the lie on their own website state.gov.

I could give you 50 links, all showing they both admitted he had no WMDs, and could "project no convential threat against his neighbours" (let alone USA). But you'd just blow it off, wouldn't you? Gonna call my bluff?

I could give you 50 links, ...

Ya' believe everything you read on the Internet? Or in the news? Or on the news shows?

Baron Max

You obviously believe every piece of shit you want to belive, don't you?

It was on the state.gov website. Thats the secretary of state, US gov, website.

Powell, Feb 2001: from
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_27-9-2003_pg4_2

“He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbours of Iraq, and these are policies that we are going to keep in place,”

And from http://pilger.carlton.com/print/133099 :

In Cairo, on February 24 2001, Powell said: "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours."

This is the very opposite of what Bush and Blair said in public.

Powell even boasted that it was the US policy of "containment" that had effectively disarmed the Iraqi dictator - again the very opposite of what Blair said time and again. On May 15 2001, Powell went further and said that Saddam Hussein had not been able to "build his military back up or to develop weapons of mass destruction" for "the last 10 years". America, he said, had been successful in keeping him "in a box".

Two months later, Condoleezza Rice also described a weak, divided and militarily defenceless Iraq. "Saddam does not control the northern part of the country," she said. "We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."


You want more? I suggest you fold - throw in your cards while your still ahead.

Or,
http://100777.com/node/589
download the video. How can you argue with that?

My problem is not just the tens of thousands of dead iraqi civilians (think i'm exaggerating?).
My problem is A: being lied to B: now my city is at risk of being bombed.

If you think you can just dismiss that, that just shows how careless and arrogant you really are. Didn't you give a shit when madrid or london was bombed?

Wait until the next 9/11 (nukes anyone?), then we can resume the conversation.

You obviously believe every piece of shit you want to belive, don't you?

My nation voted to elect those representatives in our government. Our very national principles of democracy dictate that we allow them to do the jobs that we elected them to do. To do otherwise is bordering on revolution!

I don't believe that gambling on our nation and international policies is a very smart thing to do .....so I won't "throw in my cards".

Baron Max

Nice try at totally changing the topic.

I told you there was proof he had no WMDs, before the invasion of iraq, even before september 11, in feb. and july 2001.
STATED BY CONDI RICE AND COLIN POWELL.
Go on, download the video, i dare you.

What the fuck has that got to do with them doing their job? They lied.

THEY were the ones that gambled on invading Iraq based on lies.

No WMDs, No link to al-qaeda, nothing.

Our national security of USA, UK, Australia, etc, is threatened now.
What do you say to defend your stance now?

Go on, download the video, i dare you.

Don't know how to do that kind o' thing.

Baron Max

bullshit
http://100777.com/media/03102003colincondoleeza.wmv

again, changing the topic - is that the best you can do? what a coward.

Gee Baron Max I thought you were better at arguing than this.

"What's the range of penalties in Aussie Land for "attempted terrorism"? I'd also be curious about how the prosecution can prove that they were actually planning to do it ...instead of just "joking around"?"
penalties? i wouldn't have a clue
proof? simply owning chemicals and blueprints of buildings is considered enough

"Are you aware of any common legal uses of kilograms of peroxide and acetone?"
peroxide - bleach
acetone - glue remover, can be added to fuel to increase efficiency
do your own research next time

"People are allowed to own computers, however if they were using those computers to plan an attack?"
that's a big if. has the government even made this claim? and if so, do you believe them without a confession or proof?

"Are you aware that instructions for the construction of a bomb were found on those computers?"
are you aware that bombs are legal, and have many practical, peaceful applications such as; removing tree stumps from the ground, helping with mining, fishing, etc

"Did god also tell the US congress to approve the nation going to war???"
nothing i have read has said this. i would guess that each congressman had a different reason for supporting bush

are you aware that bombs are legal, and have many practical, peaceful applications such as; removing tree stumps from the ground, helping with mining, fishing, etc

You generally need a licence and/or permits to use explosives.

James, what's the range of penalties in Aussie Land for "attempted terrorism"?

And if they "attempted" to blow up one person, is the penalty still the same as if they "attempted" to blow up all of Melbourne?

I'd also be curious about how the prosecution can prove that they were actually planning to do it ...instead of just "joking around"? In the US, something like "attempted" murder or more accurately in this case, "intended" murder, carries a far, far less penalty than murder.

Baron Max

James, what's the range of penalties in Aussie Land for "attempted terrorism"?

New anti-terrorism laws are in the process of review in Parliament right now. I don't know the details of proposed penalties. I also don't know the details of our current laws dealing with terrorism specifically.


And if they "attempted" to blow up one person, is the penalty still the same as if they "attempted" to blow up all of Melbourne?

Sorry, can't help you with that, either.


I'd also be curious about how the prosecution can prove that they were actually planning to do it ...instead of just "joking around"?

I don't know where the burden of proof will lie in these kinds of cases. Maybe the terrorists will have to show that they weren't just joking around. There may be a presumption that if you possess explosives without a licence, and you have building or infrastructure plans, and a few copies of the "Beginners' Guide to being a terrorist" lying around the house, you're probably planning to commit a terrorist act. But I don't know.


In the US, something like "attempted" murder or more accurately in this case, "intended" murder, carries a far, far less penalty than murder.

Same in Australia.

peroxide - bleach
acetone - glue remover, can be added to fuel to increase efficiency
do your own research next time


For some reason I'm not convinced they were storing bucketloads of peroxide and acetone to bleach their dark hair, clean their toilet, or put in their petrol tank.


"Are you aware that instructions for the construction of a bomb were found on those computers?"
are you aware that bombs are legal, and have many practical, peaceful applications such as; removing tree stumps from the ground, helping with mining, fishing, etc

Oooh! Yes of course, now it makes sense, those extremist beardie muslims had a legitimate purpose for making bombs now did they? Oh they intended to make "practical peaceful" bombs. I see.... I guess we should give them benefit of the doubt? Even though they talked about dying as a martyr?

Bombs aren't fucking legal you twat. If it was used in an industry it would be stored at their place of work and they would have licenses.

Do you even live in Australia? Have you even been reading the news?
Why are you defending these people? Some of them aren't even legally allowed to be here!


"Did god also tell the US congress to approve the nation going to war???" nothing i have read has said this. i would guess that each congressman had a different reason for supporting bush

OOOh well nothing YOU'VE read has said this, haven't you just read the posts people have made? They've pasted it in there for you.
Their "different" reasons, were the lies they were told, that has been proven.

baron the penelty for murder is life in prison with 15-20 before parol, i would assume that the penelty for blowing up melbourne would be without parole

"For some reason I'm not convinced they were storing bucketloads of peroxide and acetone to bleach their dark hair, clean their toilet, or put in their petrol tank."
and im not convinced that they were planning to kill people

"Oooh! Yes of course, now it makes sense, those extremist beardie muslims had a legitimate purpose for making bombs now did they?"
so you think that because they have beards, and are muslim they must be extremists and violent?

"I guess we should give them benefit of the doubt?"
bingo. innocent until proven guilty - the conerstone of any fair justice system

"Bombs aren't legal"
"If it was used in an industry it would be stored at their place of work and they would have licenses."
so if an illegal thing was used in industry, they would have a licence for it?
regardless, they didnt have bombs. they had plans... second of all, if they were trying to blow up a tree stump that they couldnt dig out, i wouldnt blame them for being too lazy to get a permit. would you?

"Do you even live in Australia?"
alas

"Have you even been reading the news?"
have you learnt from observation, and not merely from the news?

"Why are you defending these people?"
why are you attacking them?
sorry, ill try not to answer all of your questions with questions.
i am defending a fair justice system, including racial and cultural equality, a fair trial and innocent till proven guilty

"Some of them aren't even legally allowed to be here!"
"For those who've come across the seas
We've boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To advance Australia fair."

"OOOh well nothing YOU'VE read has said this, haven't you just read the posts people have made?"
why do you believe what's in their posts but not what is in mine? is it because i disagree with you?

Its not your job, or my job to decide whether or not we are convinced they were planning to kill people.

So we should give people benefit of the doubt, thats fair, but its illegal to own most guns in Australia, and especially illegal to own explosives without a proper permit etc.'

Just because our national anthem says that doesn't mean our country should support ILLEGAL immigration. Just because the media and the government is guilty of scare-mongering the public, for ratings and political support, doesn't mean people don't have the right to be afraid, or dislike those who are allegedly threatening them with violence.

I have learnt from observation, and I'm not a bias or ignorant right wing nut like some.
I don't attack many muslims, just these guys. They are destroying the reputation of their people, and their religion! Besides I have a muslim penpal who lives in lebanon.

I will certainly defend ANYONES right to be upset and angry with our government, and its involvment with the illegal invasion of iraq which has cost the lives of tens of thousands of innocent civilians.
Do I have to pick sides on this issue? Can't I just be anti-violence, anti-war, anti-terrorism, anti weapons, anti bombs?

Huwy:


For some reason I'm not convinced they were storing bucketloads of peroxide and acetone to bleach their dark hair, clean their toilet, or put in their petrol tank.

Why not? Petrol is so expensive these days, it is prudent to try and increase its efficiency. In fact, increasing petrols efficiency could haul in quite a profit.

Quite simply, I'd wait for the hubbub to die down before running about screaming "OMG TERRORISTS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT11!!!ONEONE. They are innocent until proven guilty, and have a right to explain their actions. For all we know, they could have had peroxide so that they could go into hairdressing.

BTW, hydrogen peroxide is one of the best germ killing chemicals around.

"Just because our national anthem says that doesn't mean our country should support ILLEGAL immigration."
but our government could make immigraqtion legal. and then we would be supporting legal immigration, wouldnt we???

"people don't have the right to be afraid, or dislike those who are allegedly threatening them with violence."
the only real violence i can see involving australians is in Iraq

"Can't I just be anti-violence, anti-war, anti-terrorism, anti weapons, anti bombs?"
of course you can, but you have to actually prove that someone was planning on being violent, terrorising people, commiting war or using weapons and bombs (or are you aganst even their existance?)

"For those who've come across the seas
We've boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To advance Australia fair."

That verse of our national anthem always makes me LOL, because it's such a load of BS. Although I guess we have 'boundless plains' in the middle of Australia, if you can survive in the desert.

but our government could make immigraqtion legal. and then we would be supporting legal immigration, wouldnt we???

WTF, Immigration is legal. We do support legal immigration.
I was talking about illegal immigration, its illegal, we don't support it.

I think the Iraqis have a right to defend themselves against the occupying
"coalition of the willing".

I'm not against their existance, as I said.
Violent people are a disgrace to their own. Violent war-mongering westerners are a disgrace to the west, violent islamic extremists are a disgrace to muslims.

And I guess we will all have to wait and see what the court decides, looking at the evidence, (a lot of which we aren't aware of), and then we will see whether they are convicted or not.

"I was talking about illegal immigration, its illegal, we don't support it."
has anyone ever given you a reason why we dont support it? and why it is illegal?
(and if you say it is illegal because we dont support it, and we dont support it because it's illegal, i will brain you)

Huwy:


Violent people are a disgrace to their own. Violent war-mongering westerners are a disgrace to the west, violent islamic extremists are a disgrace to muslims.

Well said. It's amazing how Westerners are furious when radical Muslims move to their countries and refuse to assimilate, forcing their views on others. Then these Westerners turn around and say 'RIGHT, time to go kick some Arab ass in Iraq, and give those barbarians some Western culture! Move out, alpha squadron!'

The coalition of the "killing" have contributed to tens of thousands of innocent civilian deaths in Iraq, (reliable estimates range between 50,000 and 100,000) yet we never hear about this. Remember "Operation Shock and Awe"?? Disgusting.
All we hear about is september 11, september 11 (which was fuckin suspicious of a coverup anyway).

The majority of Australian's don't support illegal immigration - it is deemed illegal, because of Australia's low population, low birthrate - compared to other parts of the world. Unfortunately a preventative measure has to be taken to try and lessen the level of illegal immigration, otherwise it would get out of control - see Europe and the UK for example.

Just because I don't agree with people immigrating illegally, doesn't mean I support the mandatory detention of people for more than a few months.
Its ridiculous that some people have been detained for more than 6 months - in many cases more than 3 years even 7 years for the longest detainee!
Fuck I hate the howard government.
As if it takes that long to determine someones status. It shouldn't take longer than 3 months in my opinion.