http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/audio/2009/jun/08/bnp


A spokesperson for the BNP said: “We are not anti-gay. It isn’t a big deal for us but we don’t go championing lesbian and gay issues. We don’t discriminate, we have gay people in our party, we accept that being gay is part of life."

After his win in North West last night, Griffin said: "The water of truth, justice and freedom are once again flowing over this country." The worry is what exactly is Mr Griffin's perception of truth, justice and freedom?

Despite their votes being down on 2004, it is worrying that this unthinkable result has become a reality, despite the BNP's savvy marketing under leader Nick Griffin, the BNP remain a racist and homophobic party.http://www.lgf.org.uk/news/1149/590/BNP-win-two-seats-in-the-North-of-England/


The success of the BNP, which campaigns for the repatriation of all immigrants and for immediate withdrawal from the EU, is likely to lead to a major re-evaluation of anti-fascist strategy by all the main parties.http://www.newstatesman.com/2009/06/bnp-european-party-griffin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin

Scary and sad.

There is no greater measure of moral enfeeblement of a nation than that it allows aliens to populate swathes of the lands which it inherited from its ancestors.

Under the influence of a Jewish-controlled media, Britain has long been on a downward path. Concern on the part of indigenous whites for their own sort is attacked as "racism"; citizens are corrupted by welfarism that promotes a culture of dependence; drug-taking is rife and promoted as "cool" by the media; divorce and family breakdown are at record levels; popular culture exalts the squalid and depressing, and makes ikons of worthless celebrities; excess debt has been promoted by the banks; sodomy is made fashionable . . .

Are we really to believe that amidst all the rottenness there is one shining triumph: that we have achieved a multiracial-multicultural society? No . . . I rather think that it the chiefest part of the rottenness.

England Awake!
I voted BNP.

It's so fucked up, the Greens only won as many seats as those BNP cunts!!
Well at least I can say I didn't vote for them, shame on those that did.

There is no greater measure of moral enfeeblement of a nation than that it allows aliens to populate swathes of the lands which it inherited from its ancestors.

Under the influence of a Jewish-controlled media, Britain has long been on a downward path. Concern on the part of indigenous whites for their own sort is attacked as "racism"; citizens are corrupted by welfarism that promotes a culture of dependence; drug-taking is rife and promoted as "cool" by the media; divorce and family breakdown are at record levels; popular culture exalts the squalid and depressing, and makes ikons of worthless celebrities; excess debt has been promoted by the banks; sodomy is made fashionable . . .

Are we really to believe that amidst all the rottenness there is one shining triumph: that we have achieved a multiracial-multicultural society? No . . . I rather think that it the chiefest part of the rottenness.

England Awake!
I voted BNP.

I don't think a pure white nation will be any freer of drug-taking, divorce, family breakdowns or sodomy. I think Britain certainly had those problems before those "bloody immigrants, coming over here, working hard for a crap wage, facing racism, supporting the economy and paying their taxes" came to "our" country. The problems our country face is corruption in the government, youth crime, unemployment and widespread depression due to a lack of any real problems like having to depend on charitable handouts of food and medicine. Ethnically cleansing a country is not, and never was, the answer. It didn't work for Hitler, it won't work for Griffin. What's next, eugenics?

There has been an upsurge in rightwing parties in the EU as of late. I wonder why that is...

Is it because of anti Muslim immigrant sentiment because of many of them burning and rioting over cartoons and other nonsense, generally anti-incumbency sentiment, or because of the EU government being so meddlesome in the member states' personal business?

I used to think parties like BNP may be good for Britain, but after reading River_Ape's above post I see that this is who BNP represents... no thank you.

Maybe the spending and big government

I think people have been moved to vote BNP because for some reason the bombings of London transport on the 7th of July 2005 and Glasgow airport bombings on 30th June 2007 have made people think it's more likely to be people of non white culture attacking innocent people. And the media have helped to generate a racist culture of fear. What people seem to forget is that since 1919 Britain has illegally terrorised Ireland, and Ireland in return have bombed the UK. We're seeing non white people on the television spouting extreme Muslim views in a country people believe they have a right to force Christianity upon people. We're voting for a party to keep out and kick out the non white people who have been living here as British citizens for generations. If our troubles would all be solved by making the UK a place where only white people of British decent were allowed to live, not only would a lot of us be surprised to be going back to Germany, Ireland or elsewhere, but we would lose a great deal of the riches that come from the diversity of this country.

I used to think parties like BNP may be good for Britain,...

that is hilarious
history/doomed comes to mind

There is no greater measure of moral enfeeblement of a nation than that it allows aliens to populate swathes of the lands which it inherited from its ancestors.

Under the influence of a Jewish-controlled media, Britain has long been on a downward path. Concern on the part of indigenous whites for their own sort is attacked as "racism"; citizens are corrupted by welfarism that promotes a culture of dependence; drug-taking is rife and promoted as "cool" by the media; divorce and family breakdown are at record levels; popular culture exalts the squalid and depressing, and makes ikons of worthless celebrities; excess debt has been promoted by the banks; sodomy is made fashionable . . .

Are we really to believe that amidst all the rottenness there is one shining triumph: that we have achieved a multiracial-multicultural society? No . . . I rather think that it the chiefest part of the rottenness.

England Awake!
I voted BNP.

If ever you should need to go to hospital, you will find that many of the people treating you are these "rotten" immigrants.
Will you turn away the Philippine nurse when she comes to take your bedpan?

The real problem in this country is not racial but economic inequality.
Some people are too rich and many people are too poor.

The poorest people in Britain are people from the Pakistani/Bangladeshi communities. British Muslims.

Up until recent economic crisis Britons were able to travel other countries and enjoy the power of Sterling. During those times, Britain was a freedom and civilization model for the rest of the world. When the values of their homes were increasing, people totally forgot all principles and protests about unjustified interference to other countries: Majority voted for the New Labour recently, as they made us richer. Now they are resticted to stay at home, got frustrated, and started to blame everything; Europe, political correctness, immigrants, loosing the values of white people, etc.

I think British voters should bring BNP into Westminister. Then, everyone should register as non-British and collect the government support (money) for relocation. Because we turned into such creatures who care nothing other than money. Britain should make cooperations with different nations other than America which is governed by a black person or Europe which has establish certain principles over bitter experiences of its past. Possible new candidates for an International cooperation are North Korea and Antarctic penguens.
If we had money, we would buy goods and services without the burden of dealing with the rest of the world. But we don't have enough of it and we are so angry...

I'm not sure what your point is baftan. That I as a white person have different values from other people with a different colour skin to mine? That I should blame other races for not being able to afford to go on holiday? When has Britain ever faced unjustified interference? Where will this reunification of neo non Britons go? Britain should make cooperations with countries governed by non white people? What principals could Britain gain from Europe and what bitter experience are you talking about? Cooperation with North Korea? But they're not white, we have different values. We could have all the money in the world but where do you think those goods we buy come from?

Yours confused,

EmmZ.

Here is the point: Stupidity and hypocracy of the situation with BNP interpretation. Because they cannot obviously isolate themselves from the rest of the world. Britain will still need certain goods and services, trade, interaction. Forget about how BNP government will arrange new measurements with Europe or with Obama administration, Britains' current associates would not continue same type of relations with Britain after a fantasy BNP government. So the same BNP ironically would end up similar type of regimes, just as Hitler cooperated with Mussolini.
You see, BNP suggest the relocation limit for the generations who arrived after the second world war. Just to keep Royal family in. Otherwise they had to go as well since they are German origin.

England Awake!
. . . .
:confused:

I'm just a dumb American, we've pretty much been multi-cultural since, well, the 1600's. lol We've had to deal with this non-sense for hundred's of years, even fought a war and killed over a million of each other fighting over something so STUPID as this.

So. . . like, does this mean, England is now going to separate from Scottland and Wales? Do the English now think they are genetically superior to the Welsh? How does that work? Or, do you have to have certain genes??

Like, do you have to have a certain parentage? Color of skin? Country of origin?

Just today, at dinner, my son, he's in first grade, he was telling me about how he was introduced to the subject of "social studies." He told me how they learned about this speech. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk

So, I told him about the irony of race relations in America. How now that his dream has been realized, people of different ethnicities self segregate themselves in society. It's a shame really. When I was in college, I would go into the cafeteria, and most of the African-Americans would all sit to themselves in a corner. Not sure how that all comes about. But in the Student Union, there would even be a special study lounge that was exclusively for them. Seemed odd to me. 60 years ago they didn't want to be segregated, and then, here it was in the 90's, and in my school, they had their own private clubs and study lounges?

After I got done telling him all this? You know what he still didn't understand? He asked me, "What's a racist?" :shrug:

Well, to answer honestly, having studied physical anthropology, I told him, it's a lie, there IS NO SUCH THING AS RACE. Every person on the planet can have children with everyone else, so therefor it is impossible to define what a "race" is.

I said to him, "What race is our President?" Now, I guess that all depends on who you ask, doesn't it? If you ask anyone from his mother's family, I'm willing to bet they might not take kindly to you saying he's just a black man. Though most might say so. On the other hand, if you ask HIM, it certainly is politically expedient to say so these days, isn't it?

I guess the point is, how will you guys know WHO is to stay and who is to go? Is it just by the length a person or a persons ancestors have been in particular land where the voting has been taking place that have a legitimate right to be there? And everyone else needs to be shipped out or . . . are you suggesting, exterminated? Or is this just something that the new fascists propose to do genetic tests to find out who has the right genes to stay in a certain area of the world?

Scary and sad.

Indeed. So much for the continent that was marked as the most progressive.

Indeed. So much for the continent that was marked as the most progressive.

Perhaps next time there's an election, we should just ban the parties that the current government doesn't agree with. That would solve all of our worries. Democracy is weak.

You see, BNP suggest the relocation limit for the generations who arrived after the second world war. Just to keep Royal family in. Otherwise they had to go as well since they are German origin.

The BNP wouldn't have a problem with the Germanic origin of the Royal family.
au contraire.

Perhaps next time there's an election, we should just ban the parties that the current government doesn't agree with. That would solve all of our worries. Democracy is weak.

Humans, collectively are weak, and I have not met an individual who is strong enough to not be corrupted by power.

Reading between the lines of the BNP European manifesto it sounds like the rambling of a guy you might hear mouthing off in the pub. All this crap about protecting the interests of British people makes no sense when placed under the microscope:
What do we do when there aren’t enough British workers to cover all the jobs (which is why I work with two Polish guys)?
If my friend is convicted of a crime does he get deported to Kenya since that is his place of birth (even though his parents were born in the UK and he’s lived here most of his life)?
I could go on but it’s largely pointless because I’m sure the recent support (by a very small minority) is just a blip for the BNP. I can’t talk for other European nations of course.

. . . .
:confused:

I'm just a dumb American, we've pretty much been multi-cultural since, well, the 1600's. lol We've had to deal with this non-sense for hundred's of years, even fought a war and killed over a million of each other fighting over something so STUPID as this.

So. . . like, does this mean, England is now going to separate from Scottland and Wales? Do the English now think they are genetically superior to the Welsh? How does that work? Or, do you have to have certain genes??

Like, do you have to have a certain parentage? Color of skin? Country of origin?


At present Welsh and Scottish people are British, I don't think the BNP have any particular desire to change that.

What do we do when there aren’t enough British workers to cover all the jobs (which is why I work with two Polish guys)?
If my friend is convicted of a crime does he get deported to Kenya since that is his place of birth (even though his parents were born in the UK and he’s lived here most of his life)?

The answer to the example of your friend being deported back to Kenya should he commit a crime is yes. They have been doing this in the States for a while now, non-citizens who are permanent residences are sent back to their country of origin regardless of whether they have ever been there. So for example if you were sent to the States as a refugee as an infant (like many cambodians) and lived in the States all your life you would be sent back after you have served time in prison.

Wsionynw: At present Welsh and Scottish people are British, I don't think the BNP have any particular desire to change that.

I agree this is not about the Scott's, Welsh or Irish. Its about Polish and Italian workers from the EU. Its about a growing population of Muslim immigrants.

I'm not sure what your point is baftan. That I as a white person have different values from other people with a different colour skin to mine?

Someone born and raised in England would most likely have different values than someone born and raised in Saudi Arabia or Japan. It's not a racial issue per se, but of culture and national origin (and race is somewhat connected to these factors).

Lets be clear. The BNP are the only party who will openly discuss racial issues. You may not agree with them but they will happily discuss them with you. All the other parties run a mile when the difficult questions of overcrowding, ghettos, islamification of the UK and so on come up. The term racist is used to shut us up and it works very well except for members of the BNP who accept their title and still discuss it. Unfortuantley it's these other parities who have tried out and failed with experiments on us on integration and multicultuism but refuse to discuss the apparent benefits of it. No wonder the BNP have gained ground. Their motto is " If you're concerned about racial issues come and talk to us, we're listening"

I know a few people who have voted for them and none of them I assure you are racist but they are fed up and there is an immigration problem in England which is saturated. I agree with Curious that if there was a willingness to discuss race and immigration the BNP would not have won.

I agree with Lucy but the Conservative party got burned on two occasions when they made objections to multiculturism a key plank of their manifesto so they dropped the topic. It seems the Lefties have made the subject so taboo that if you don't agree with it you lose the moral high ground and become unelectable.

What do we do when there aren’t enough British workers to cover all the jobs (which is why I work with two Polish guys)?

If current figures are accurate, 1 in 30 British people are unemployed.

The workforce in the restaurant where I work is mostly Eastern European. These are often people supporting sizeable families on minimum wage, and living in cramped council houses on the worst estates. They are exploited because employers know they have no alternative.

Natives aren't so eager to stoop to these lows, and can you blame them? We know our rights and what constitutes acceptable treatment. For that, we are criticised.

So great swathes of immigrants aren't helping our economy. They are crowding an already crowded little island; worsening the housing crisis; and undercutting the existing labour force. Moreover, their own countries are losing millions of young, work-ready citizens, throwing them further into recession.

I agree with Lucy but the Conservative party got burned on two occasions when they made objections to multiculturism a key plank of their manifesto so they dropped the topic. It seems the Lefties have made the subject so taboo that if you don't agree with it you lose the moral high ground and become unelectable.

I call it leftist fascism not a habit of all on the left mind you but a tactic ti silence debate, political correctness.

They are crowding an already crowded little island; worsening the housing crisis; and undercutting the existing labour force. Moreover, their own countries are losing millions of young, work-ready citizens, throwing them further into recession.

This is something Americans like Esoteric forget, just how small the country really is. Its not a great big continent where people can spread out and have there own space.

This is something Americans like Esoteric forget, just how small the country really is. Its not a great big continent where people can spread out and have there own space.

The United Kingdom is the 19th most populated country in the world [1 (http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/world_population.htm#Top20)]
and just look at the size of it.

As far as density goes, with the top being the most densely populated, we are ranked 39th. Whilst the USA is sitting pretty at position #152 [2 (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/geo_pop_den_peo_per_sq_km-density-people-per-sq-km)].

'Sorry, We're Full'.

The United Kingdom is the 19th most populated country in the world [1 (http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/world_population.htm#Top20)]
and just look at the size of it.

As far as density goes, with the top being the most densely populated, we are ranked 39th. Whilst the USA is sitting pretty at position #152 [2 (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/geo_pop_den_peo_per_sq_km-density-people-per-sq-km)].

'Sorry, We're Full'.

I don't get your meaning here. Are you agreeing that England has an immigration problem its unable to handle due to size or are you disagreeing? Because my posts are saying that the UK has an immigration problem and it too small to deal with a growing immigration whilst allowing further immigration.

I don't think that it's true the BNP are the only party willing to discuss race issues, we have laws in this country to prevent racial discrimination so how were they passed if we don't discuss such things?
Anyways they are clearly concerned in promoting and maintaining 'white culture', not sure what that means these days but it certainly seems to appeal to the paranoid few that imagine a UK with a mosque on every street and cricket greens dug up and turned into refugee camps.

Immigration has been an issue for years not just in the UK but all over the developed world. Kicking people out of the country because they are not white is hardly the way forward. Have the BNP have considered all the Brits that currently work and live abroad? Doubtful.

Well yes if the discussion is about protection of immigration and immigrants then its ok but not if its against immigration or immigrants in general. Laws prohibiting immigration do not have to be discriminatory unless you think all borders should be open to all people regardless of the needs and limitations of a particular nation. I don't believe England will allow direct discrimination but we shall see. The BNP is not going to get rid of racial descrimination laws you may be a little paranoid about all this. Or is it that you do not trust the judgement of people of England? Personally I do.

When you say they are concerned with promoting and maintaining 'white culture' you really mean English culture because there are complaints about Eastern European immigrants and they are also white, the whole backlash against the EU is a backlash against being lumped with other white nations from a legal and economic perspective. Every nation or group white, black, asian, christian, muslim, jewish has a right to maintain their traditions and heritage. What we do not have the right to do is inflict ours on another. A better argument would have been to point out that since England has a history of spreading a kingdom around the world, using the resources of said places etc that they cannot now withdraw and claim England to itself since it has colonialist responsibilities. Like I said they are just as pissed about the Italians and Polish as they are about the muslims. When I think about Denmark and how small they are and the immigrants they invited turning from a few thousand to a 100 thousand and so on, they as a nation of only 5 million has a right to put a stop to immigration. They are now all pissed off because they did not foresee the problems that would come from inviting a group of people who cannot or will not easily assimilate. They have a right to preserve themselves. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. To label anyone who complains about immigration as being 'racist' is simply a way of silencing debate.

The BNP's immigration policies:


Racial and immigration policies

At its founding, the BNP was explicitly racist. In October 1990, the BNP was described by the European Parliament's committee on racism and xenophobia as an "openly Nazi party … whose leadership have serious criminal convictions [sic]".[99] When asked in 1993 if the BNP was racist, its deputy leader Richard Edmonds said, "We are 100 per cent racist, yes".[99] Founder John Tyndall proclaimed that "Mein Kampf is my bible".[100] When Nick Griffin became chairman in 1999, the party began to change its stance with regard to racial issues. Griffin claims to have repudiated racism, instead espousing what he calls "ethno-nationalism". He claims that his core ideology is "concern for the well-being of the English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish ethnic nations that compose the United Kingdom".

The BNP publicly disavows any interest in white supremacy, which it defines as the "wish to rule over foreign peoples".[cite this quote] The BNP requires that all members must be members of the "Indigenous Caucasian" racial group.[15] The party does not regard non-white people as being ethnically British, even if they have been born in the UK and are naturalised British citizens. Instead, Griffin has stated that "non-Europeans who stay", while protected by British law, "will be regarded as permanent guests".[101]

The BNP is opposed to mixed-race relationships on the stated ground that racial differences must be preserved; it claims that when a white person produces a mixed-race child, "a white family line that stretches back into deep pre-history is destroyed." Nick Griffin stated: "… while the BNP is not racist, it must not become multi-racist either. Our fundamental determination to secure a future for white children is restated, and an area of uncertainty is addressed and a position which is both principled and politically realistic is firmly established. We don't hate anyone, especially the mixed race children who are the most tragic victims of enforced multi-racism, but that does not mean that we accept miscegenation as moral or normal. We do not and we never will".

The party does however have a half-Turkish Cypriot, half-English councillor in Lawrence Rustem.[102][103] In 2006, Sharif Abdel Gawad, a grandson of an Armenian refugee (also of partial Greek ancestry), was chosen as a council candidate in Bradford. Sharon Ebanks, the BNP's first councillor in Birmingham, has denied claims made by her stepmother, Glenys, that Sharon is mixed race; her black father, Radwell Ebanks, having been born in Jamaica.[104] BNP member Simone Clarke has a mixed-race daughter by a Cuban-Chinese dancer. [105]

The BNP supported Leeds University lecturer Dr. Frank Ellis, who was suspended from his post after stating that the Bell Curve theory "has demonstrated to me beyond any reasonable doubt there is a persistent gap in average black and white average intelligence".[106][107] Ellis called the BNP "a bit too socialist" for his liking and described himself as "an unrepentant Powellite" who would support "humane" repatriation.[108] In April 2006, Sky News confronted the party's national press officer, Phil Edwards (it has been claimed that this is a pseudonym for Stuart Russell[109]) with a tape of a telephone conversation the previous year. On the tape, Russell could be heard to say that "the black kids are going to grow up dysfunctional, low IQ, low achievers that drain our welfare benefits and the prison system and probably go and mug you."[110] He responded: "If I thought I was going to be recorded ... I would not have used such intemperate language, but let’s be honest about it, the facts are there".

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/former-BNP-members-speak-out.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbZ8Hamr0_c&eurl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCt5Ce0i-m4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83hXQB85Lb8

At present Welsh and Scottish people are British, I don't think the BNP have any particular desire to change that.

lol. I know, I know, it was just a joke. The guy I quoted was being very anachronistic. River Ape wrote, "England Awake!" :D

So I was thinking he just wanted the rest of the British, (N. Irish, Scots, Welsh) to stay sleeping. Like somehow he was REALLY bigoted to the extreme. lol I was making a point at how absurd bigotry is. How far and where does it stop?

Nationalism is SO regressive, SO idiotic, & SO. . . eh? 19th century? lol

We need this party in Canada. Seriously multiculturalism is a total failure. It is being taken advantage of as a platform to attack anyone who speaks against it, or points out problems with it. Like losing the current culture of a country.

Eventually the backlash will get much worse if it's not addressed. You give anybody an inch they seem to take a mile.

Eventually the backlash will get much worse if it's not addressed. You give anybody an inch they seem to take a mile.

I completely agree. There are problems and these problems have been ignored for way too long. Think of it like this, in such a multi cultural environment where all have the right to voice their opinion the BNP managed to win two seats. Its a reality check to address what has always been there. Do you know how many feel this way but do not speak out in public about it? Enough.

There is such a knee-jerk reaction that no one wants to listen to what they are really saying, what the fear is coming from. They're dismissed but they do not disappear they grow.

The Nick Griffin in his interview doesn't say anything different than what Malcolm X said in his own time. But to have a Black segregationist, which is what he was, is deemed different than a white one because we see Black segregationists as reacting to white racism. The reverse is also true, white segregationists are reacting to what some refer to as the 'rising sea of color' and a dramatic change in culture washing them away. But no one wants to hear that because white people are not allowed to have grievances concerning race and multi culturalism. An African american can say they have lost their culture and are going to reclaim it by living in their own neighborhoods, excluding whites from venues which has happened in Harlem, NY and looking down on inter-racial marriages but let a white person claim the same and they are called racist, not proud.

There has never been a referendum in Britain on whether we want a multicultutral society or not. The most life changing decision that has ever happened to this country just happened through decisions made by sucessive governments without a single mandate in favour of it. The next step was to ensure that any discussion about it was instantly supressed by branding the discussion racist and those who want to discuss it as knuckle dragging sub human BNP supporters. This is just manipulation and social engineering on a grand scale and soon people will wake up but will it be too late.

There has never been a referendum in Britain on whether we want a multicultutral society or not. The most life changing decision that has ever happened to this country just happened through decisions made by sucessive governments without a single mandate in favour of it. The next step was to ensure that any discussion about it was instantly supressed by branding the discussion racist and those who want to discuss it as knuckle dragging sub human BNP supporters. This is just manipulation and social engineering on a grand scale and soon people will wake up but will it be too late.

No-one ever made a choice to have a multicultural society.
That includes successive Governments.
It has happened because of faster and cheaper travel.

When one of my uncles left for America from Ireland, he never saw his home or his parents again. These days he would have been hopping back and forth and hardly seen anything remarkable in it.

Work and travel between countries is going to become more common, not less.
Stop trying to turn the clock back to some golden age that never existed.

Captain, I'm not talking about work and travel I'm talking about massive influxes of people with a whole new culture who are here to stay and change the face of the country for ever. You seem to accept the changes or maybe welcome them. I don't.

England Awake!
I voted BNP.

I always suspected you were an asshole.

Bnp ftw.

BNP FTW

We need this party in Canada. Seriously multiculturalism is a total failure. It is being taken advantage of as a platform to attack anyone who speaks against it, or points out problems with it. Like losing the current culture of a country.

Eventually the backlash will get much worse if it's not addressed. You give anybody an inch they seem to take a mile.

Join the movement for the homeland brother! :rolleyes: (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/044.html)

I don't get your meaning here. Are you agreeing that England has an immigration problem its unable to handle due to size or are you disagreeing? Because my posts are saying that the UK has an immigration problem and it too small to deal with a growing immigration whilst allowing further immigration.

I'm agreeing. :D

I always suspected you were an asshole.

Hmm.

So, do you actually have a point to make?

Alan Moore perhaps commented well on what would happen if a party like the BNP come into power:


The Norsefire regime shares every facet of fascist ideology: it is highly xenophobic, rules the nation through both fear and force, and worships strong leadership (e.g. the Führerprinzip). As in most fascist regimes, there are several different types of state organisations which engage in power struggles with each other yet obey the same leader.

The fascist regime embraces total corporatism. An important aspect of corporatism is the total identification of society with state, and to think of society as a body where the different institutions are organs. This is reflected by institutions named after parts of the body: the detective branch of the police is The Nose; the surveillance organizations are The Ear and The Eye; the uniform branch of the police is The Finger (and those who work for them are called Fingermen); and the state-controlled media is known as The Mouth.

In creating this system of control, Moore provocatively evokes classical English political thought, namely Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan, which imagined the state as one vast corporate gestalt, with its legitimacy founded on the need to maintain order and prevent indiscriminate violence (as was hinted at in the Norsefire backstory). The sovereign formed the natural 'head' of the society, which perhaps explains the anatomical nomenclature of the various arms of state government.

To keep this body healthy, fascist ideology prescribes cleansing it of unhealthy elements (i.e. the motto Strength Through Purity), thus, the totalitarianism and concentration camps. In issue #5, Delia Surridge recapitulates the Milgram experiment as explanation of why ordinary people, such as she, engage in such obedience. The connection to Anglican Christianity and Purity Through Faith is a typical feature of clerical fascism in Roman Catholic countries (i.e. southern France of the Vichy regime 1940-44, Spain under Francisco Franco 1939-75, the Independent State of Croatia under Ante Pavelić 1941-45, and Austria under Dollfuss and Schuschnigg 1933-38); such a form has taken hold specifically in England where, in reality, the Church of England (The Anglican Church) is 'established' with the Queen at its head and the state. This explains why, in story continuity, violent anti-Norsefire rebellion engulfs the non-Anglican parts of the United Kingdom (e.g. Scotland). Src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta


Moore's dystopian early-1980s narrative about a future fascist Britain under siege by a notorious terrorist who was subjected to unbearable torture, echoes much of our current dilemma in the so-called war on terrorism, all the way down to the criminalization of homosexuality, the panoptic PATRIOT Act-like surveillance state and a homogeneous media that glosses over real news in favor of sensationalism. src: http://dir.salon.com/story/books/int/2004/07/22/moore/print.html?MAN_THESE_REG_SYSTEMS_ARE_A_PAIN

Was World War II for nothing if we now agree with the fascist regime Hilter tried to enforce? What kind of a world are we proposing if hatred and xenophobia win over compassion and democracy? Griffin's ideals aren't just about immigration control, and if you think that's his only agenda you're being duped, hoodwinked, lied to. Open your eyes and take at look at this man's background and his friends, his propositions in all matters. Walls of segregation for whites and non white? White only transport systems. White only voting. Black people who have lived in this country being made "permanent guests". Abolition of gay marriages. Not to mention his policies on the economy. Now this man has his good friend Silvio Berlusconi to collude with.

England prevails!

The real problem in this country is not racial but economic inequality.
Some people are too rich and many people are too poor.

There is almost no poverty in Britain. I don't count "has running water, low crime, cheap food, central heating, satalite television (but only the basic package, not sky sports)" as 'poverty'.

There are some people who are truely starving - but hardly any. Also... there is no such thing as 'too' rich. If someone is loaded, it's their money - they can do with it as they please. Theft isn't the answer - taxes are already stupidly high anyway.

I think the problem with the UK is education, and if people was to address issues such as 'social mobility', 'equality of opportunity'
and 'social justice' then the solution is to improve education and disciplin in the lowest orders so that they are more employable. Not hack university admissions with pleb quotas.

EmmZ

What is so scary about controlling immigration? Here is how Switzerland deals with it:

Birth

A person is a Swiss citizen at birth (whether born in Switzerland or not) if he or she is:
born to a Swiss father or mother, if parents are married
born to a Swiss mother, if parents are not married

Where parents marry after birth and only the father is Swiss, the child acquires Swiss citizenship at that point.

There are exceptions if only the mother is Swiss and she acquired Swiss citizenship on the basis of a previous marriage to a Swiss citizen.

*Jus soli does not exist in Switzerland, hence birth in Switzerland in itself does not confer
Swiss citizenship on the child.


Marriage (facilitated naturalisation)


A person married to a Swiss citizen may apply for Swiss citizenship by facilitated naturalisation after living in Switzerland for five years and having been married for at least three years. No language test is required, however one must show:

*integration into the Swiss way of life;

compliance with the Swiss rule of law;

no danger to Switzerland's internal or external security.

Children from the person's previous relationships are given citizenship along with the partner. This clause is not valid for same-sex couples.

It is also possible for the spouse of a Swiss citizen to apply for facilitated naturalisation while resident overseas after:

*six years of marriage to a Swiss citizen; and close ties to Switzerland.

Spouses acquiring Swiss citizenship by facilitated naturalisation will acquire the citizenship of the community and canton of their Swiss spouse.


Naturalization


*Citizenship in Switzerland can be obtained by a permanent resident who has lived in Switzerland for at least twelve years (any years spent in Switzerland between the 10th and the 20th years of age count double), and has lived in the country for the last three out of five years before applying for citizenship. One should be able to speak fluently in either German (preferably Swiss German), French, Italian or Romansch (depending on the community) and show:

*integration into the Swiss way of life;

*familiarity with Swiss habits, customs and traditions;

*compliance with the Swiss rule of law;

*no danger to Switzerland's internal or external security.

*Cantons and communities impose their own residence and other requirements, which may be additional to those imposed by the Confederation.


They have sanely dealt with the situation and are not inundated with immigrants that can umwittingly have negative affects on their very small population. Its simply ridiculous to pretend that immigration reaps only positive rewards. One should prove worthy of their new status of 'citizen'. I see nothing wrong in this.

Will they destroy Camden Street Market then?

I think it would be good for the BNP to win in England. The English need a dose of fascism. Nothing like homegrown white supremacists to bring the country down.

The BNP are nationalist not fascist.

You of all people who disagree with aliyah based on the destruction of the host society and culture. Its the same bloody thing SAM. And no I do see a huge difference between Israel/Palestine and this situation in England. But you of all people should respond to the main population feeling disenfranchised by millions from outside who can immigrate without any controlling features.

A white supremacist by any other name:



The BNP is opposed to mixed-race relationships on the stated ground that racial differences must be preserved; it claims that when a white person produces a mixed-race child, "a white family line that stretches back into deep pre-history is destroyed." Nick Griffin stated: "… while the BNP is not racist, it must not become multi-racist either. Our fundamental determination to secure a future for white children is restated, and an area of uncertainty is addressed and a position which is both principled and politically realistic is firmly established. We don't hate anyone, especially the mixed race children who are the most tragic victims of enforced multi-racism, but that does not mean that we accept miscegenation as moral or normal. We do not and we never will".

theyre british, just like in india they protect their culture.

By speaking English? :rolleyes:


But you of all people should respond to the main population feeling disenfranchised by millions from outside who can immigrate without any controlling features

What I see in London is that all the laborious jobs are done by immigrants. Besides, the English, like other wealthy nations have been promoting "free trade" on the Third World for generations, forcing nations to open up their markets even if it devastates their economy. And the immigration is mostly from countries they go around screwing up. And now they want protectionism?

I say, put your money where your mouth is. Suck it up.

I have already addressed that in a previous post. READ

everyone does it. if you look at it from a cultural perspective. china, india, korea, peru etc. when does this become racist exactly?

A white supremacist by any other name:

So what SAM? Members disagree with inter racial relationships is a far cry from making is a law. Malcolm X also disagreed with inter-racial marriages. There is a reason why this is happening in England right now. There is a reason why there is a backlash and it mostly comes from ignoring the problem of immigration and loss of cultural identity. I suggest you go back and read post #48

Britain is not a nation that lacks checks and balances in the political process. The most important outcome of this vote is a 'shock' to the population to discuss what it hasn't been willing to discuss for a long time. Trying to marginalize the BNP and its concerns will only make things worse.

I read your edit and edited my response to John to include a response to you. I spent the last week in London and it felt just like old Bombay. Same English style architecture, English style walk ups, English style subways, English style pavements, English style paved roads. Felt just like home, people from around the world, additionally it had Lebanese falafel stands, Chinese crispy duck in the windows, German bakeries, Italian coffee shops, French patisseries . I see no problem if Bombay were to become like that. Anyone who wants to live in monocultural societies should just shoot themselves, they were born too late. The world belongs to the future and the future will be beyond borders.

I read your edit and edited my response to John to include a response to you. I spent the last week in London and it felt just like old Bombay. Same English style architecture, English style walk ups, English style subways, English style pavements, English style paved roads. Felt just like home, people from around the world, additionally it had Lebanese falafel stands, Chinese crispy duck in the windows, German bakeries, Italian coffee shops, French patisseries . I see no problem if Bombay were to become like that. Anyone who wants to live in monocultural societies should just shoot themselves, they were born too late.

You're point?

Controlling immigration is not about 'monoculture'. Switzerland has been doing this without fanfare for a long time and I seen nothing wrong with it. If the issues had been dealt with there would be no 2 seat win for the BNP.

Anyway I really don't care what you think of this issue it doesn't affect you.

My point is that beware of what you want, for you will get it. We already went through that shit here. The BJP, VHP, Shiv Sena triad. Knocked down some irreplaceable historical bricks, led a few riots around the country, had some massacres of those "not like us". That was the last decade or so. Surprisingly [even for me], the public voted overwhelmingly for a stable mandate this year, they abandoned all notions of nationalism. They realised they care more about a stable society than a divisive one. So I say, let the BNP have its day in the open. Let them run the government as they see fit. Nothing like getting what you want to make you understand what it means.



Anyway I really don't care what you think of this issue it doesn't affect you.

Maybe it does. Maybe I have mixed race relatives who work in England. And whose job security is affected by assholes like Griffin coming to power. Regardless, do carry on.

My point is that beware of what you want, for you will get it. We already went through that shit here. The BJP, VHP, Shiv Sena triad. Knocked down some irreplaceable historical bricks, led a few riots around the country, had some massacres of those "not like us". That was the last decade or so. Surprisingly [even for me], the public voted overwhelmingly for a stable mandate this year, they abandoned all notions of nationalism. They realised they care more about a stable society than a divisive one. So I say, let the BNP have its day in the open. Let them run the government as they see fit. Nothing like getting what you want to make you understand what it means.



Maybe it does. Maybe I have mixed race relatives who work in England. And whose job security is affected by assholes like Griffin coming to power. Regardless, do carry on.

Well its up to the people of the nation to decide how this turns out not to those who are not of the nation. If you worry about them you can always make a place for them back in India. What would be wrong with that?

The BNP has two seats they are not 'running the government' their 2 seats allows for the issue of immigration control to be put on the table. You understand very well how ignoring an issue makes people more extreme in their tactics and views. Like disenfranchising a group and pretend it isn't happening, something we have been on the same page about in previous threads

The BNP has two seats they are not 'running the government' their 2 seats allows for the issue of immigration control to be put on the table. You understand very well how ignoring an issue makes people more extreme in their tactics and views. Like disenfranchising a group and pretend it isn't happening, something we have been on the same page about in previous threads

Thats similar to how the VHP started out. Also a "nationalist party". They had to shoot Gandhi because his views were so detrimental to their nationalistic viewpoint. The problem with divisive viewpoints is that they are, well, divisive.

Thats similar to how the VHP started out. Also a "nationalist party". They had to shoot Gandhi because his views were so detrimental to their nationalistic viewpoint. The problem with divisive viewpoints is that they are, well, divisive.

You're example of Hindu vs. Muslim politics in India isn't a proper comparison. The BNP is addressing IMMIGRATION, an unregulated immigration policy. It need not have been a divisive issue if it were allowed to be discussed openly without the knee jerk reaction cry of 'racism'.

Like I said Switzerland has done it and I see no problem with it.

Lucy, I realise completely ignoring immigration issues would be short sighted. I'm willing to discuss immigration issues as long as other issues are talked about too. If the BNP are the best party to tackle immigration pressures on the British economy then we also have to talk about his party members shoving dog shit through Muslim business' letterboxes and calling for riots against the police. We must also talk about him proposing only white British people can vote. We have to talk about how he proposes to improve education by more than just getting white people to teach white children. How he sees how reunifying Asian doctors will help, not hinder the already collapsing NHS.

I'm in no way saying I do not love this country. I think we have a rich and deep and interesting history filled with a wonderful culture in most respects. It's not only the party's quite extreme views on immigration, it's their policies on other matters and their affiliations with some unscrupulous characters, their unwillingness to move forward in an age where not only are people coming into the country but leaving in droves for better employment opportunities.

I completely agree with you in terms of attempting to maintain an overall preservation of British culture at large, but this is not the party to do that. Not one bit. British culture is not about apartheid, we abolished that a long time ago. And let's not pretend this issue is solely about maintaining or even reclaiming British identity. This man and his pals are about hatred, plain and simple. Let's not cut off our noses to spite our face. Let's find a different solution to address the issues some people have.

I personally don't have any issues with new emerging cultures I think we benefit from sharing our differences. Otherwise we'd be left without the nation's favourite dish. We don't need walls to keep out people with a different coloured skin to preserve a culture some people feel is in danger of being diluted or changed, or even in the worst case scenario, wiped out. We perhaps need to drop our nationalist pride and be willing to move on now not stagnate in the past. The world's a different place. So please let's talk about the issues we as a nation face, but let's not become a country of oppression and hate.

You're example of Hindu vs. Muslim politics in India isn't a proper comparison. The BNP is addressing IMMIGRATION, an unregulated immigration policy. It need not have been a divisive issue if it were allowed to be discussed openly without the knee jerk reaction cry of 'racism'.



Depends on your POV. I see very little difference between a BNP that claims non-whites are not "native British" and a VHP that says Muslims are foreigners.

Depends on your POV. I see very little difference between a BNP that claims non-whites are not "native British" and a VHP that says Muslims are foreigners.

Well we'll just have to disagree.

I'm curious. What do you think of this?


The party does not regard non-white people as being ethnically British, even if they have been born in the UK and are naturalised British citizens

But they are not ethnically British. I can live in Cambodia for another 50 years acquire a passport (you only have to buy one) and STILL not be ethnically khmer. I would continue to live in my expat haven eating and drinking mostly in expat environs, I wouldn't have to learn the language or participate in the same cultural expectations as khmers. The only reason why this would be accepted is because there are so few permanent expats.

If immigration was based on the criteria that the swiss demands as posted above there would be fewer immigrants but the immigrants who do become swiss would have assimilated enough for the host society not to feel threatened. I am not anti-immigration I am for a controlled immigration policy that takes culture and local needs into account

I'm curious. What do you think of this?

Do you consider yourself American, or Indian? I'm curious.

But they are not ethnically British. I can live in Cambodia for another 50 years acquire a passport (you only have to buy one) and STILL not be ethnically khmer. I would continue to live in my expat haven eating and drinking mostly in expat environs, I wouldn't have to learn the language or participate in the same cultural expectations as khmers. The only reason why this would be accepted is because there are so few permanent expats.

If immigration was based on the criteria that the swiss demands as posted above there would be fewer immigrants but the immigrants who do become swiss would have assimilated enough for the host society not to feel threatened. I am not anti-immigration I am for a controlled immigration policy that takes culture and local needs into account

Were you born in Cambodia? What do you consider yourself as?

How many years before they become "ethnically" British? After all the current "ethnic" population of Britain is not the original one, so what is British ethnicity?


Do you consider yourself American, or Indian? I'm curious.

I'm born in India. I consider myself Indian. My cousin is born in the US, she considers herself American.

There is no greater measure of moral enfeeblement of a nation than that it allows aliens to populate swathes of the lands which it inherited from its ancestors.

Under the influence of a Jewish-controlled media, Britain has long been on a downward path. Concern on the part of indigenous whites for their own sort is attacked as "racism"; citizens are corrupted by welfarism that promotes a culture of dependence; drug-taking is rife and promoted as "cool" by the media; divorce and family breakdown are at record levels; popular culture exalts the squalid and depressing, and makes ikons of worthless celebrities; excess debt has been promoted by the banks; sodomy is made fashionable . . .

Are we really to believe that amidst all the rottenness there is one shining triumph: that we have achieved a multiracial-multicultural society? No . . . I rather think that it the chiefest part of the rottenness.

England Awake!
I voted BNP.

So what if those lands were inherited from ancestors. It's not the ancestral times any more. What ancestors did is now irrelevant. It's life now that matters.

My niece is one of those aliens. She's half black and half Caucasian. She's also far above average intelligence, does extremely well at school and want to be a scientist. She obviously has much to contribute to society when she is an adult and has reached her potential.

You would kick her out of the country for being an 'alien'??


Concern on the part of indigenous whites for their own sort is attacked as "racism";

This is the ONE thing you said that I agree with.


citizens are corrupted by welfarism that promotes a culture of dependence;

And this welfarism is caused by melanin in your skin/being born somewhere else? Yeah, yeah, yeah.


drug-taking is rife and promoted as "cool" by the media; divorce and family breakdown are at record levels;

And this is caused by foreign people how?


popular culture exalts the squalid and depressing, and makes ikons of worthless celebrities;

And this is caused by foreign people how?


excess debt has been promoted by the banks;

And this is caused by people of other nationalities, HOW?


sodomy is made fashionable . . .


And this is relevant to anyone except the people doing the sodomy, how?

There is no greater measure of moral enfeeblement of a nation than that it allows aliens to populate swathes of the lands which it inherited from its ancestors.


There are reasons for 'aliens' coming into the UK.... The UK needs them!


Under the influence of a Jewish-controlled media, Britain has long been on a downward path.


I can already see you like to blame others...


Concern on the part of indigenous whites for their own sort is attacked as "racism"; citizens are corrupted by welfarism that promotes a culture of dependence; drug-taking is rife and promoted as "cool" by the media; divorce and family breakdown are at record levels; popular culture exalts the squalid and depressing, and makes ikons of worthless celebrities; excess debt has been promoted by the banks; sodomy is made fashionable . . .


What the hell has this got to do with immigrants, coloured folk and voting for the BNP? Your type really make me laugh. You think if every 'alien' was shipped out things would get better? You are a dangerous individual. :runaway:

The UK faces many social problems. Just go to the UK's town centres on Friday and Saturday nights (anytime of the year) to see for yourself. You don't like White corporations selling alcohol cheaper than mineral water? what are you doing about it? Divorce and family breakdown at record levels? Whose fault is that? are the BNP going to fix all broken marriages?


Are we really to believe that amidst all the rottenness there is one shining triumph: that we have achieved a multiracial-multicultural society? No . . . I rather think that it the chiefest part of the rottenness.

England Awake!
I voted BNP.


Will the UK stop stealing doctors and nurses from other countries around the World? Will the UK stop foreign students and lecturers from coming over? The NHS and education system would collapse if any of this were to happen. As I was saying, anyone that knows their facts would know that the UK needs its 'aliens'.

But yeh, I think extremists should be given power (the World over), just so ordinary people can see how incompetent and crazy they really are. :rolleyes:

Were you born in Cambodia? What do you consider yourself as?

How many years before they become "ethnically" British? After all the current "ethnic" population of Britain is not the original one, so what is British ethnicity?

I'm born in India. I consider myself Indian. My cousin is born in the US, she considers herself American.

No, no I have only been living in Cambodia for the last five years I was just giving an example, I was born in England and raised in the UK and US.

As I was saying one must assimilate in order to be considered british or american etc. Your cousin is probably american she has probably assimilated but assimilating into the U.S is not the same as there is no base culture to begin with, its a nation of immigrants. This is not the case in England where there is a definite culture.

I think people have been moved to vote BNP because for some reason the bombings of London transport on the 7th of July 2005 and Glasgow airport bombings on 30th June 2007 have made people think it's more likely to be people of non white culture attacking innocent people. And the media have helped to generate a racist culture of fear. What people seem to forget is that since 1919 Britain has illegally terrorised Ireland, and Ireland in return have bombed the UK. We're seeing non white people on the television spouting extreme Muslim views in a country people believe they have a right to force Christianity upon people. We're voting for a party to keep out and kick out the non white people who have been living here as British citizens for generations. If our troubles would all be solved by making the UK a place where only white people of British decent were allowed to live, not only would a lot of us be surprised to be going back to Germany, Ireland or elsewhere, but we would lose a great deal of the riches that come from the diversity of this country.


In all honesty I think most people do not care about that. The BNP have not pushed the threat of terrorism as the biggest issue. The major issue facing the UK at the moment is the recession as well as MP's expenses - something that has infuriated most people. While people are losing their jobs, MPs (who already get paid well over £60k) have been using tax-payers money for new cars, homes etc. This story has dominated the news/papers for weeks, and people have been sacked/forced to resign etc. The big political parties have all been rocked by this and people are quite clearly very angry. The Euro elections were the opportunity for taxpayers to give the middle-finger to all the corrupt politicians.

Turnout for the European elections:


1979 - 62%
1984 - 59%
1989 - 58%
1994 - 57%
1999 - 50%
2004 - 45%
2009 - 43%

I read your edit and edited my response to John to include a response to you. I spent the last week in London and it felt just like old Bombay. Same English style architecture, English style walk ups, English style subways, English style pavements, English style paved roads. Felt just like home, people from around the world, additionally it had Lebanese falafel stands, Chinese crispy duck in the windows, German bakeries, Italian coffee shops, French patisseries . I see no problem if Bombay were to become like that. Anyone who wants to live in monocultural societies should just shoot themselves, they were born too late. The world belongs to the future and the future will be beyond borders.

London isn't usually like that.
We knew you were coming and put on a bit of a show for you.

In all honesty I think most people do not care about that. The BNP have not pushed the threat of terrorism as the biggest issue. The major issue facing the UK at the moment is the recession as well as MP's expenses - something that has infuriated most people. While people are losing their jobs, MPs (who already get paid well over £60k) have been using tax-payers money for new cars, homes etc. This story has dominated the news/papers for weeks, and people have been sacked/forced to resign etc. The big political parties have all been rocked by this and people are quite clearly very angry. The Euro elections were the opportunity for taxpayers to give the middle-finger to all the corrupt politicians.

Turnout for the European elections:

Agreed Ghost. People have voted for a party they haven't seen to be misusing tax payers money. Let's see how they feel when the BNP's European funding goes on Nick Griffin's £1500 HD television. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/european+funding+to+benefit+bnp/3202362

If those people think they've voted for more integrity they're sorely mistaken.

No, no I have only been living in Cambodia for the last five years I was just giving an example, I was born in England and raised in the UK and US.

So what do you consider your native ethnicity?


As I was saying one must assimilate in order to be considered british or american etc. Your cousin is probably american she has probably assimilated but assimilating into the U.S is not the same as there is no base culture to begin with, its a nation of immigrants. This is not the case in England where there is a definite culture.

Are you the kind of immigrant you consider should be rejected?


London isn't usually like that.
We knew you were coming and put on a bit of a show for you.

I did think the vegetarian bangers and mash were a bit suspicious. ;)

As I was saying one must assimilate in order to be considered british or american etc. Your cousin is probably american she has probably assimilated but assimilating into the U.S is not the same as there is no base culture to begin with, its a nation of immigrants. This is not the case in England where there is a definite culture.

:rolleyes: I had this heated argument at University with a girl in one of my soc. classes. Me being a cultural anthropologist, and keenly aware of what "culture" is, and her, being an elitist German major who had studied German her entire life, fought heatedly about whether or not America had a "base" culture.

The real irony of it all, which most people from most nations on the planet are so blind to, and, I would say, it is where some of the world's anti-Americanism stems from, is, indeed, that American culture is now the dominant culture that has grown like a virus across the globe.

It is SO insidious and all pervasive, you just don't think there IS a base culture, because since your birth, you have believed that YOUR MODERN culture has been yours silly, but it isn't. After WWII, the Americans gave the world American culture, and I can see it in the questions asked of the members in the thread titled, "About The Members Round #XX"
example: What's your favorite t.v show, what's your favorite band/singer, what's your favorite movie, etc. etc. Let's not forget. . . . the internet? :rolleyes:

You have no clue, but innovation, modernism, education, SCIENCE, freedom, (among the "good" things) consumerism, materialism, fast food, celebrity, fashion obsession, all the things you have taken for granted that you think are quintessentially western are AMERICAN CULTURE. (I don't want to have an argument, I'm not saying these things aren't abundant in other cultures, mmmkay? Just saying, this is the EMPHASIS, as in INVENTION, INNOVATION.)

To sit there and insult America and say that this vapid disease we have invested the planet with, and destroyed so many other beautiful cultures with is not a "base culture," is to gravely underestimate the power and seduction of "American Exceptionalism," which has sucked the soul out of many of an otherwise dignified foreign enterprise.

If you still don't get it, try reading some Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, or Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged. I'm not necessarily saying American culture is something to be wowed by, but it's there.

Culture exists among all groups of people, families, neighborhoods, workplaces, cities, states, indeed, even groups of apes have culture, didn't you know?:shrug:

What you refer to as american culture I do not see as a culture at all but consumerism, or to appease you a consumer culture. What is spread around the globe is coca cola and McDonalds, what most Americans consume and acquire is what binds them to one another. So no I disagree with you I don't think the U.S has a 'base' culture that binds the people of the nation together as one unless of course you want to count t.v and a day at the mall.

All you are suggesting is that american culture is organized and maintained by large corporations. Pretty sad if you ask me.

There is a distinct difference between desis born in the US and desis who migrate there. I call that difference American culture.

Care to elaborate?

Desis born in the US e.g. my cousins are more like Americans than Indians. Even the ones who "search for their roots" as many Americans are wont to, live in the past rather than the present.

Desis born in the US e.g. my cousins are more like Americans than Indians. Even the ones who "search for their roots" as many Americans are wont to, live in the past rather than the present.

So what do you think? Is there an american culture or is it simply consumerism? You already know what i think:p

Hmm.

So, do you actually have a point to make?

Is it not obvious? I suspected River Ape was an asshole, and then he crows about voting for a party that are racist, homophobic, and sexist.

I don't mind that BNP got elected. That shows democracy works, and to be honest, I'd rather these petty minded hate mongers come forward and show themselves, than hide, and become subversive.

River Ape was right about one thing though; It's time for England to wake up, but to actually silence hatemongers using logic and reason.

I don't mind that BNP got elected. That shows democracy works, and to be honest, I'd rather these petty minded hate mongers come forward and show themselves, than hide, and become subversive..

I agree with this too though I wouldn't dismiss all of their claims as simple 'hate mongering', they didn't gain two seats from hate mongering.

So what do you think? Is there an american culture or is it simply consumerism? You already know what i think:p

There is definitely an "American mindset". You can see the differences in values, thought processes, priorities, choices and goals. The American desi is more likely to move out of the parents home, have live in relationships, not conceal from their family the fact that they drink alcohol or eat beef/pork. They usually oppose welfare economics, think living on their own is no big deal, would not be happy if the parents came home and took over the household. They'd be less likely to live through their children or consider them extensions of themselves. They are more idealistic about India and more embarrassed by its shortcomings and inequalities. They have misplaced ideas about nationalism as Indians [and end up funding nationalists and separatists] and feel that Indian achievements and failures reflect on them much more than native Indians do.

Stuff like that.

I agree with this too though I wouldn't dismiss all of their claims as simple 'hate mongering', they didn't gain two seats from hate mongering.

Extreme Nationalists tend to be nostalgic idealists. Hitler was. Pol Pot Was.
They appeal to people who want to cling to the past, especially an imaginary past where everything was purer and better.

In that case then all politicians are in line with Pol Pot and Hitler as they all appeal to the ideal, conservatives also tend towards nostalgia and what is purer and better. There are real discussions which need to be discussed like immigration and that is a present problem and it needs addressing. Like I said before, Switzerland has a very controlled immigration policy so why is any discussion of this immediately give license to accusations of racism unless of course you don't think any discussion about race, culture, differences, loss of cultural identity, multiculturalism should be discussed or perhaps only discussed in a way that doesn't offend anyone. Its this notion that helped give them the two seats. There is always a backlash against thought policing.

All I hear from so called 'non extremists' is a call to silence the BNP and any of their issues, how wonderfully democratic. Nothing extreme about that. They won two seats, there is a reason why they won two seats maybe we should be discussing why someone would vote for the BNP. I know a few who have voted for them and not one of them by any means would I consider racist in any way shape or form, one of them is even in an inter-racial relationship and still backed them.
They are responding to something.

I always find it amusing when people throw Pol Pot and Hitler in the same barrel and exaggerate a fear, as if all things are equal. Its too bad that there wasn't one person to tag for the Rwanda tragedy to add extra flare you know, PP, Hitler and....oh yeah Stalin, you forgot Stalin. And what about Idi Amin he was bad too. Oh yeah and don't forget the BNP, cause we all know in the future they will take over the whole country and start drowning all the colored folk force everyone to wear a banner around their arse.

I agree with this too though I wouldn't dismiss all of their claims as simple 'hate mongering', they didn't gain two seats from hate mongering.

They actually got fewer votes than in the previous election, just because turn out was low, those fewer votes counted more.

But anyway, they are reactionary, and full of hate. They actually don't understand what it is to be English, they only know what it is to be white.

Take this story;

"The British National Party is drawing up plans to allow people from ethnic minorites to become members."

And what caused this change of heart?

"... an attempt to stave off the prospect of financially crippling racial discrimination lawsuits,.."

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/aug/01/uk.race)

The BNP are racists. But we can't walk out of meetings, or boycott, or demonstrate, just because the democratic process works, and they managed to get seats. No, what we can do, is let them have their voice, and cut it down with reason.

All I hear from so called 'non extremists' is a call to silence the BNP and any of their issues, how wonderfully democratic.

I distinctly remember saying they should win and give the people what they think they want. :bugeye:

Phlogistician

But there is no reason, there's only people reminding them of Pol Pot and Hitler, there is no discussion of what motivates this kind of point of view, a point of view that has valid complaints.

Dismissals of them, their ideas and their grievances will make them not only seem stronger but silenced. When the list of BNP members was made public and there was discussion on whether the people on that list should be fired, fired from their jobs for joining a legal party, a threat based on their political affiliation then their point is proven. What I find hysterical is that much of what they have to say is so similar to what Malcolm X had to say yet he gets a stamp for being a minority saying it. We never called it hate speech, we called it revolutionary. it seems that only people in the world who cannot complain on behalf of their group are white people, the only people in the world who cannot show open pride are white people because they are not carrying the guilt you see, its alright as long as it comes with the burden. When SAM says this:

'Besides, the English, like other wealthy nations have been promoting "free trade" on the Third World for generations, forcing nations to open up their markets even if it devastates their economy. And the immigration is mostly from countries they go around screwing up. And now they want protectionism?'

She's saying England deserves to reap whatever negative consequences because of their colonialist history. The implication is how dare they try and protect themselves from it.

When she says this with sarcasm:

I think it would be good for the BNP to win in England. The English need a dose of fascism. Nothing like homegrown white supremacists to bring the country down.

The implication is that England deserves to be brought down.
When people support the BNP its in the hope that it will improve the country also when people argue against the BNP its in the hope that it will improve the country. But a quote like that is supposed to be taken ready handed because again England doesn't deserve to be stronger and better just drown in a lousy economy and immigration. So this is just a reminder to you that what it means to be English would seem to many like what it means to be a colonialist deserving what it gets, you know similar to what it means to be white.

What you refer to as american culture I do not see as a culture at all but consumerism, or to appease you a consumer culture. What is spread around the globe is coca cola and McDonalds, what most Americans consume and acquire is what binds them to one another.

Quite the little elitist, eh?

Aside from essentially single-handidly shaping the now pervasive mediums of film, television, internet and pop/rock music, America has also been responsible for a thousand libraries worth of science and philosophy, more than 50% responsible for the space age and all it's implications, and essentially become the focus of the entire globe. As was said before, there are some wonderful and some disgusting parts to American culture, but if America doesn't have a culture than no where on earth does.

Art, philosophy, science, worldview, language and system of community living. These things are all massive parts of what make up a culture. If you can't recognize how remarkably these areas have been influenced by America you're living in a cave or willfully staying ignorant.

I'm not America's biggest fan, nor am I American. But I'm also not an idiot.

The BNP succeeded because there will always be cultural warriors. It is a natural and predictable reaction. If they were to gain some sort of large minority, that would be a cause for concern.

Most of the British citizens I've talked about this issue with seem to have some sympathy for the BNP, if not actually supporting them. Of all the people I chatted with, none said that they agree with the idea of deporting 'non-ethnic Britons'. The common thread between each was that they all said they'd experienced a large number of immigrants who, instead of adapting to British culture and adding to it, had instead attempted to change as many aspects of British life as they could to be more in tune with the culture they came from. Being an ex-pat I can fully understand this concern. A great many of the foreigners who come to China never adapt in any meaningful sense of the word. The only reason this never becomes a problem is because we're always so massively outnumbered by the Han! Also, the Chinese simply wouldn't expect us to adapt. Their mindset is still not much changed from that of Marco Polo's day and they view foreigners as bringing their own culture over, sharing it, and then going back home.

A Brit friend of mine gave the examples of two former co-workers who were both Muslims. He said the first one adapted to British language, manner of business, cultural norms and manners. In exchange, my friend was happy to learn more about his culture, join him for dinners, keep a respectful distance from his wife and not break his rules of etiquette, and let him leave early on Friday for religious reasons. The second coworker, on the other hand, spent the majority of his time complaining about Britain and would lash out at people who broke his own cultural norms in the work place. I think it's fair to say my friend was justifiably unhappy about this. If you come to a country you have to accept that it's your job to fit in and find a role, not the country's job to bend to your foreign norms. Or, if you want, you can just not fit in and live a segregated life. The Chinese seem to do that well enough in Canada, as well the foreigners in my city.

The issue of the de-Britishization of Britain is a legitimate one. Defending British culture should not be equated with racism. The problem is that the BNP really are racist.

I distinctly remember saying they should win and give the people what they think they want. :bugeye:

But I wasn't responding to you Sam. I responded to Captain.

:yawn:Whatever Tyler

Any argument against the de-britishization would be considered racist as it touches on the untouchable which is the question of race and culture, assimilation, diversity etc.

blues, rock and roll, jazz, country, roots music, hemmingway, fitzgerald, twain, stowe, steinbeck, thoreau, poe, salinger, godel, kuhn, nozick, chomsky, arendt, quine, rawls, searle, pretty much most of the important philosophy for 50 years in the 20th century, the majority of significant science, the development of modern mega-christianity, godfather, apocalypse now, magnificent seven, john wayne, the western film (heavy thanks from Seven Samurai for it's help on this one!), citizen kane, raging bull, star wars, the space age, the modern questions that arise from the space age, 2001 a space odyssey, king kong, modern journalism, television, radio shows, modern advertisement, individualism, exceptionalism, modern republicanism....

I could go on if you'd like.

What, exactly, is it that you think 'culture' means that America doesn't have? A strong artistic, philosophical, scientific community? No, they have that. A rather strong and unique worldview? Nope, America has that. A unique and easily identifiable manner of social cohesion and governance? Nope, America has that.

So aside from the fact that you - being as special as you are, I understand that your opinion is awfully important - don't like it, what is it that America doesn't have? Four o'clock tea or bad teeth?

Tyler be a dear and go and stroke your bruised ego in a thread that pertains to americans and their easily bruised egos.

I'm not American, I'm Canadian. America being bashed has absolutely no effect on my ego. That is reserved for Canada being insulted.

That said, talking to you is obviously not worth the few minutes it takes. You feel you have free range to insult Americans but someone makes a bad teeth joke and you can't even respond to a simple question.

Maybe that's why your culture is dying.

"If you come to a country you have to accept that it's your job to fit in and find a role, not the country's job to bend to your foreign norms." Tyler

This seems to sum it up for me. Britain has many foreign communities and has seemed to absorbed the lot either because they have not made any demands on the host nation or they have adapted to our ways. The exception is the Muslims. Not a day goes by without some whinging Muslim claiming their rights to have special food served, special prayer areas set aside, special dispensation for wearing Muslim clothes, time off work to prey and so on......This is what we feel is totally unaccepatble and what is called Multiculturism. The British are supposed to be tolerant to this. Multiculturism is the opposite to Integration. When the latter failed the political elite decided to try and let the Muslims live in commmunities with their own culture. A huge mistake. They shoud be forced to adapt or leave.

"If you come to a country you have to accept that it's your job to fit in and find a role, not the country's job to bend to your foreign norms." Tyler

This seems to sum it up for me. Britain has many foreign communities and has seemed to absorbed the lot either because they have not made any demands on the host nation or they have adapted to our ways. The exception is the Muslims. Not a day goes by without some whinging Muslim claiming their rights to have special food served, special prayer areas set aside, special dispensation for wearing Muslim clothes, time off work to prey and so on......This is what we feel is totally unaccepatble and what is called Multiculturism. The British are supposed to be tolerant to this. Multiculturism is the opposite to Integration. When the latter failed the political elite decided to try and let the Muslims live in commmunities with their own culture. A huge mistake. They shoud be forced to adapt or leave.

This is hilarious in view of the fact that British troops are using military force to create refugees in Muslim countries by exporting/imposing their social norms, thus forcing these "Muslims" to move to the UK. For Britishers to complain about Muslims "whining" when they are bombing is incredulous in the extreme. If you interfere in the politics of other countries, eventually it will come back to bite you in the ass. At least be glad that the "whining" Muslims are not using good ole English methods of "scorched earth" military force to change how the British live.

Ahh. SAM thinks Muslims only came to Britain following the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. And they came to the very country which is bombing them out of existance. I think I can remember all those Germans coming to Britain when we bombed Dresden and Berlin, or maybe I can't

Of course they came to the country that is bombing them. Its the only place they won't get bombed.

Duh.

As for the ones who came before, most of them came from British colonies.

You're off topic SAM. I don't care where they've come from or why, it's the fact they wont attemp to integrate that annoys me. There are thousands of Japanese here, we bombed them as well but I don't have a problem with them. Why should that be?

Probably because they were demilitarised and did not have west-friendly autocratic dictators installed to protect the western interests. It really puzzles me that the British are willing to send their children to war, kill millions, spend billions because they believe their system will work for everyone when they are unable to convince the few immigrants who choose to move to their country that it can work for them.

Dismissals of them, their ideas and their grievances will make them not only seem stronger but silenced.

I'm not dismissing them. I recognise their potential to do evil. I want them to make hate speeches, and for people to realise what an insidious bunch they are.

Oh, btw, I don't give a fuck what SAM has to say, I have her on ignore, so please don't paste her arguments into conversations we are having. I;m not interested in her hate, either.

"If you come to a country you have to accept that it's your job to fit in and find a role, not the country's job to bend to your foreign norms." Tyler

This seems to sum it up for me. Britain has many foreign communities and has seemed to absorbed the lot either because they have not made any demands on the host nation or they have adapted to our ways. The exception is the Muslims. Not a day goes by without some whinging Muslim claiming their rights to have special food served, special prayer areas set aside, special dispensation for wearing Muslim clothes, time off work to prey and so on......This is what we feel is totally unaccepatble and what is called Multiculturism. The British are supposed to be tolerant to this. Multiculturism is the opposite to Integration. When the latter failed the political elite decided to try and let the Muslims live in commmunities with their own culture. A huge mistake. They shoud be forced to adapt or leave.


That's horseshit.

All you are doing is parroting the sensationalist headlines of trashy tabloids.


Not a day goes by without some whinging Muslim claiming their rights to have special food served, special prayer areas set aside, special dispensation for wearing Muslim clothes, time off work to prey and so on......


You know that (Not a day goes by...) is not true. People of different religions and nationalities will bring their culture/religion with them, wherever they settle in the World, it would be naive to think otherwise. Muslims eat halal meat, Hindus don't touch beef etc. these factors have been incorporated into areas where Muslims and Hindus reside.

This idea that Muslims or anyone else demands special rights is complete nonsense. The facts are Britain is a very tolerant and open society, Britain has room for people of every possible religious or political point-of-view, and I think that is a wonderful thing. There are places where you’ll find Mosques, Churches, Temples, Gurdwaras right next to each other, and no tension whatsoever. That is an achievement.

Anyway, if I want to take a 10 minute break to pray (and make up the 10 mins afterwards) and the manager agrees, what is the problem? I used to leave school on Fridays to pray at Mosque, my teachers were cool with it, is there anything wrong with that? Was I demanding special rights? And what is it that you want? Are their any special rights you feel you are missing out on?


This is what we feel is totally unaccepatble and what is called Multiculturism.


Who the hell is we?


Another thing, how have Muslims affected your life, have Muslims forced you to change any part of your life in any way?... Have you had to change the way you dress, what you eat etc.


Multiculturism is the opposite to Integration.


No it isn’t.


When the latter failed the political elite decided to try and let the Muslims live in commmunities with their own culture. A huge mistake. They shoud be forced to adapt or leave.


Bullshit. When Muslims and other minorities came to the UK, they settled together in mainly poor run down areas (all they could afford) where work was available, they have been there since the 60s and 70s, they haven’t been there long. The political elite didn’t decide jack shit, they didn’t tell Muslims or anyone where to live. Areas where immigrants settled, attract more fresh immigrants as they are always going to feel more comfortable living there. Not exactly rocket science.


They shoud be forced to adapt or leave.


That is a vague and meaningless point. Something only the gullible and prejudiced eat up. How does one ‘adapt’? Do you have a checklist of some sort? How can you tell if a Muslim or anyone else has 'adapted'?

Oh, btw, I don't give a fuck what SAM has to say, I have her on ignore, so please don't paste her arguments into conversations we are having. I;m not interested in her hate, either.

Oh sorry. I didn't know:D

What you refer to as american culture I do not see as a culture at all but consumerism, or to appease you a consumer culture. What is spread around the globe is coca cola and McDonalds, what most Americans consume and acquire is what binds them to one another. So no I disagree with you I don't think the U.S has a 'base' culture that binds the people of the nation together as one unless of course you want to count t.v and a day at the mall.

All you are suggesting is that american culture is organized and maintained by large corporations. Pretty sad if you ask me.


I honor and respect your opinion miss, it seems to me defeated by the very nature of your post however. You even USE the words, "consumer culture" to describe that very culture. lol

I am NOT however trying to defend the richness or texture of American culture compared to other world cultures, that would be an exercise in futility. All I am saying, is that it is there.

Let me give you an example. I can go to anywhere in my country, and say to someone, in way of saying that they are denied something in a A BIG WAY . . . "You shall not pass go, you shall not collect $200" EVERYONE born after 1936 (post depression) in this country knows where this phrase comes from and has experience with the origins of this game. Tonight at dinner my seven year old son, when I said this to him in reference to something that he was going to go directly to bed, he was not going to pass go, he was not going to collect $200, looked at me like I was crazy. He wanted to know WHAT I was talking about. I told him to call his GRANDMOTHER and ask her. lol

So he did. She told us to come on over and she would show him. So we went over there tonight and at the tender age of seven he learned how to play, and played his very first game of Monopoly. I thought this rather fitting since it was invented right here in the mid-west and made popular during the great depression, and here we are, again in the midst of another terrible economic time, with nothing better to do, than to come together as American families do and spend time together doing what we do best, spend quality time together.

I was reading the insert on the directions though, and was once again, interested to learn, that another of a great American Cultural Icon has spread throughout the world with great familiarity. Perhaps someone from some other country is also familiar with this game? Anyway, again, part of culture is shared experience. I can go anywhere in my country, and I wouldn't have to go far to find someone that knows how to play this game. Is there any American reading this that hasn't played this game? That hasn't at least HEARD of this game? lol What I will find really interesting though? Just what the local variations are of whose house rules are different. :p Everyone has their own. lol