<B>Note:</B> The following books are dynamically selected from the Amazon.com <b>SciFi & Fantasy</B> category.

Every sale made through the following links helps to support sciforums.com :)

<center>
<script src="http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?t=exoscience&amp;p=16&amp;o=1&amp;l=bn1&amp;browse=25&amp;mode=book s" type="text/JavaScript"></script><noscript>
<map name=boxmap><area shape=RECT coords="10, 322, 100, 329" href="http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm/privacy-policy.html?o=1"><area coords="0,0,10000,10000" href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/exoscience"></map><img usemap="#boxmap" width=468 height=336 border=0 src="http://rcm-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/rcm/468x336.gif">
</noscript>
</center>

Dune was by Frank, not Brian; Brian is his son and he wrote the seventh in the series. However, while the first is astonishing and the second is readable (but short) the rest are terrible.
But by all means, everyone, read the first.

Terry Goodkind/Terry Brooks: terrible. Stick to Tolkien.

Laurell K. Hamilton: only read her Anita Blake books. If this is another one, it's well worth a read.
Peter David: snigger.

YOu left out Kurt Vonnegut my favorite writer! He wrote such great books as slaughterhouse 5 and timequake, which was sadly his last book (or at least thats what he says)

For what I have seen, a lot of people haven“t even heard about Iain Bank“s Culture series (Consider Flebast, Player of the Game, Use of Weapons and The State of Art) which (I think) were great. The culture was perhaps the most optimistic society I have ever seen (altough unfortuanlly humanity wasn“t part of that society :( )

Culture was quite opposite from the society in George Orwell“s 1984

I'm not sure about the author Iain Bank, Although 1984 that the prophecy that Mankind is to have it's face ground by the heel of a boot.

(I think that's correct ,but if it isn't well... it's one of those memory glitches)

The author that I keep mentioning... is William Gibson for the Cyberpunk genre,Of course I'm not going to Leave out Bruce Sterling as another author to the genre.

John Wyndham novels are pretty good too... Like day of the Triffads, The Kraken Awakes, The trouble lichen.

On a different note: Welcome to Sciforums Yang's_Matrix :D I hope you have the chance to take in the scenery and post to what ever board you choose. As I know from previous experience your comments were well founded :D

*Originally posted by rde
Dune was by Frank, not Brian; Brian is his son and he wrote the seventh in the series. However, while the first is astonishing and the second is readable (but short) the rest are terrible.
But by all means, everyone, read the first.

Are you referring to Children of Dune through Chapterhouse Dune? If so I am astonished at your given language. Terrible is an odd word to chose for something whose brilliance parallels the original. I am assuming that either did not read the forementioned titles or did not read the forementioned titles. I recognize that you are entitled to an opinion, but I would suggest that without support your opinion is weightless. I enjoyed the 5th and 6th book especially. The grand sweeping scale and general twist of events placin an underdog against a vastly superior force, was a brilliant return to the original formula. It is telling of Herbert's genious that the end moral message of converting one's enemy as an ally pervades the final book.

Originally posted by Teg
*Originally posted by rde
Dune was by Frank, not Brian; Brian is his son and he wrote the seventh in the series. However, while the first is astonishing and the second is readable (but short) the rest are terrible.
But by all means, everyone, read the first.

Are you referring to Children of Dune through Chapterhouse Dune? If so I am astonished at your given language. Terrible is an odd word to chose for something whose brilliance parallels the original.
The original Dune is my most-read book; I've lost count of the number of times. I've tried to re-read the subsequent volume, but I just can't. They are, IMO, terrible. I liked the ideas in God Emperor, but in general I stand by my original assessment.

It's over a decade since I read them, so I can't give any concrete criticism at the moment, but dredging the memories, I found them tedious and repetitive.

Thank you wery much Stryderunknown :D

Heretics, tedious and repetitive? What pace would you prefer, Die Hard, the book? In no way can this book be characterized as either boring or redundant. You have obviously not read the last two books.

I am personally a real die hard Alpha Centauri fan (AC is a PC game by Sid Meier) and I can“t wait till the third AC book is released... altough in the first two books did have few sacrileges in them... mostly concerning about the charracters and factions. :p

I think that first book (Centauri Dawn) gave a good picture from Comissioner Pravin Lal (aka Brother Lal), but in the second book (Dragon Sun) I think that Michael Ely (author) didn“t give a full picture about Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang and his ideology (and ofcourse Yang“s downfall was ALMOST unacceptable :) ).
Also I have pictured the Spartans to be a bit different... personally I don“t think that Spartans are so much in emotions and honor... but I thought they would be more logical... and war and physical strenght would not be theyr whole ideology, but all kinds of means wihch would assure theyr survival (after all, theyr ideology was that the survival of mankind must be assured, atleast I got that picture) and make humanity stronger.

Altough I cannot blaim Michael Ely for not seeing them as I do after all the game itself gives only minor hints about the charracters and theyr nature. One can easily see them in different light.

Originally posted by Teg
Heretics, tedious and repetitive? What pace would you prefer, Die Hard, the book? In no way can this book be characterized as either boring or redundant. You have obviously not read the last two books. I don't agree with you therefore I obviously didn't read the books. Well, I can't argue with logic like that.

David Eddings ranks "almost" alongside Tolkien. His Belgariad, Mallorian, Tamuli and Eleni series are brilliant, can't put the book down, stories in fantasy. One gripe I have - is that he tends to repeat on a variation in one or two books. But overall, I'd give him 95%.:rolleyes:

I personally liked Calculating God by Robert J. Sawyer and
Vacuum Diagrams by Stephen Baxter. Both are excellent reads.

Calculating God deals with an interesting way of looking at God. It is a sort of compromise between creationists and evolutionists, and brings up many interesting points throughout.

Vacuum Diagrams is a novel about the human race as a whole. It looks at humanities future, right up until the last star in the universe has long burned out (you will see why if you read the book ;) ). Not only does it deal with many interesting technologies (such as a huge ring of superstrings attached to eachother, which opens a doorway to a seperate universe a highly advanced alien race has constructed to save themselves and humanity from the force that has destroyed all the stars) but once you finish the book, you will realize how much it relates to God and the predictions in the Bible.

Both are amazing books, and I'd highly recommend them. But if you're only going to buy one, get Vacuum Diagrams.

Neal Stephenson is my favorite current author and the only SF I've read recently.

I unfortunately have too much work (ok school, but that's my job) related reading to read as much SF as I'd like.


I mainly wanted to say, if we are making a list of great authors Orson Scott Card, Robert Heinlein, and Robert Anton Wilson should all be mentioned. Niven too if you like effects between man, technology, and environment. Arthur C Clarke and Asimove deserve props too.

Fantasy wise - I like Eddings, Robert Jordan, and Raymond E. Feist.

ok I'm leaving people out, but I don't want to just start spouting names meaninglessly.

Originally posted by Xelios
I personally liked Calculating God by Robert J. Sawyer and
Vacuum Diagrams by Stephen Baxter. How about that! Yesterday I had posted -
---------
Robert J Sawyer. any of his books.

Flash Foward,
Calculating god,
Factoring humanity,

philosophy and science. Great mix.

Old stuff? Michael Crichton - Andromeda Strain, Sphere.
----------

Will definitely give Vacuum a try.

After reading a lot of RJ sawyer, I decided that his ideas are untouchable, but he always resorts to quickly wrapping up his stories, so we get a lot of "coincidences" in the end to tie up the loose ends.

Originally posted by Yang“s_Matrix
For what I have seen, a lot of people haven“t even heard about Iain Bank“s Culture series (Consider Flebast, Player of the Game, Use of Weapons and The State of Art) which (I think) were great. The culture was perhaps the most optimistic society I have ever seen (altough unfortuanlly humanity wasn“t part of that society :( )

Culture was quite opposite from the society in George Orwell“s 1984

I, too, love all of Bank's Sci-Fi and straight fiction novels.

Some I would recommend are the 'Culture' based sci-fi "Excession" and "Look to Windward". "Against A Dark Background" is also superb. His writing can be dark, witty and gritty, and the worlds / ships / aliens and 'Culture' society within which he has immersed himself is extremely rich and detailed.

Non-scifi that I have enjoyed by the same author have been "The Wasp Factory", "Complicity" and "The Crow Road".

Since reading his first novel "The Wasp Factory" I have become a total Banks addict and eagerly await his every publication.

I haven't read Goodking the books from Brooks are some of the best i have ever read after Fiest and then Tolkin

I just finnished reading The Andromeda Strain by Michael Crichton. He's the greatest! wished only AS was longer thn it is:(

one can't leave out Stephen R. Donaldson's the Gap series. I am a big SciFi fan and have red Heinlen, Asimov, Tolkien, Stephenson a trillion others, but This Gap series is absolutely the best SciFi I hve ever read.

No books by Heinlein on that list!?!?:mad:

Heinlein is the best Sci-Fi author ever. Stranger in a Stange Land is the best book ever written. Starship Troopers is almost as good.

By the way has anyone here heard of Mike Resnik? He's one of the best authors I've ever read but all his books are out of print and he isnt that old.

wow! this is a great discussion about sf writers and books. I'm a writer myself. And i found a really coool place to get book reviews and reviews of short Sf.

you might want to check it ourt ; sfreader.com.

I think they had some arguments going on their boards, too, but not nearly as active as this.

great site by the way, i look forward to visiting often.

my favorite Sf writer is Robert E. Howard and my favorite magazine is realms of Fantasy.

If one is too state the best sci-fi authors one must include Philip K. Dick. A genius like his comes along only every 100 yrs. Also Bradbury, Clarke and Asimov have not been mentiones. tsk tsk!

Robeson,
I mentioned Asimov and Clarke.

I must have missed them, no hard feelings. I saw David Eddings come up once too many. ;)

G'day all....

Iceonfire I too am a newbie to this community and would have posted earlier but was too busy picking up my jaw after seeing the breadth of this site.Slashdotters dont know what they're missing out on.:D

As to the subject at hand, two names.....
Jack Vance
George R.R. Martin

Do yourself a favour..
And as for David Eddings, the first fifty times you read his books they're excellent...after that they get a bit samey.;)

enders game by orson scott card
and
maske thaery by jack vance are good...

Haven't read to many Sci-Fi books outside of ST, SW & B5 but I have read some of Banks work and I highly recomend "State of the Art".

DUNE
Just Dune. Only Dune. Worship Dune. :D

And has anyone other than me heard of the Ghormenghast novels? BBC made a movie out of them that had what's-his-name (the guy who played Dooku and Saruman) in it. The books are really great.

What really makes a good scifi book?

I just read 'The Forever War' I forget who authored it though. It was really nice and the science in it was accurate for when it was written.

What makes a good SF novel?

-> Internally consistent rules.
-> A setting that allows the exploration and elaboration of social evolution given the forces of technology and scientific understanding on society.
-> The use of scientific ideas to explore the meaning of life and a sentient being's place in the universe.
-> Sometimes cool technology and gizmos.
-> What makes every novel good: character development, style, and good plot progression and completion.

Fantasy is much the same with science and technology replaced by a consistent set of rules based on other powers/forces. Personally I like SF better because inherently it is aimed to be more relevant to the real world.

In my opinion hard SF with realistic science needs to play a greater role in general societal thought. We are racing towards the future and thinking through the scenarios of what forces will be brought to bear on society and how they need to be dealt with are very important. Not that many SF writers attempt to take on such a philosophical role (or at least those I've read, though I must admit I have not thoroughly surveyed or kept up with the genre).

Hey Ender!

Forever War, by JOE HALDEMAN

I remember that, cause its on my "to-buy" list (along with about 70 other titles :D )

My favorite sci fi authors/books:
Kim Stanley Robinson- red mars, green mars, blue mars.
Frank Herbert-dune series.
Ken MacLeod-the star fraction, cosmonaut keep, dark light.

What about the Stone Canal? That's the only one I've read by Macleod, and I really enjoyed it.

Originally posted by Pollux V
What about the Stone Canal? That's the only one I've read by Macleod, and I really enjoyed it.
I haven't read Stone Canal yet, but I plan to do so. I read three of Macleod's books straight through, and I'm afraid to start another as I'll be up all night.:) Macleod does a great job of combining political intrigue, a little economics, and sci fi.

Yes, Ender's Game is definitely one of the best! In fact, just about anything by Orson Scott Card is a wonderful read. My recommendations are for Songmaster and Ender's Shadow. The first one, Songmaster, is a beautifully woven tale of a boy who is blessed with a voice so stunning he can kill people just by singing a song of intense joy or sorrow. I won't tell you the rest, but it's so heart-wrenching reading about his trials and hardships. The latter, Ender's Shadow, is a parallel story to Ender's Game, with the exception that it is recounted from one of Ender's friend's point of view. His name is Bean (not his real name, just a nickname), and he is a genius with a troubled past and an uncertain future. He is taken up to Battle School with other gifted children, and is taught the arts of war in order to combat an alien menace. It's really amazing, because you can sort of identify with him, even though he's in a totally different environment. But you should read Ender's Game first, to get familiar with the entire story, then expand into this other character's point of view. Don't worry, it won't be the same story over again, it's more like how Tolkien expands Middle-Earth by providing all sorts of details and background information. You'll really get sucked in. Trust me. ;)

Gee whiz, in my O.S.C. fan craze, I forgot to mention my fave authors:

ISAAC ASIMOV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORSON SCOTT CARD!! (of course)
TERRY PRATCHETT!!
BEN BOVA!!
ROBERT SILVERBERG!!
CHARLES SCHEFFIELD!!
CARL SAGAN!!
J.R.R. TOLKIEN!!
aaand a whole bunch more that I couldn't name because I can't remember.

I've always wanted to read Gormenghast!! but I keep forgetting. I've seen the BBC production, it was pretty cool by the looks of it.

p.s. I thought Asimov was the "Master of Science Fiction"?? I'm suprised not many have mentioned him. Kudos for those who have, and shaaame for those who haven't. Just kidding. :) You guys are still young, you have plenty of time to read Asimov. :)

Somewhere on this website I made a list of authors. I'll have to see if I can find it.

I found it! Here:

*Terry Brooks(Shannara books)
*Robert Asprin(the Myth Series)
*Christopher Rowley(Bazil Broketail)
*David Weber(Honor harrington, the paladin books that I can't remember the series name for)
*David Eddings
*Margeret Wies and Tracy Hickman(Dragonlance, The Death Gate Cycle, Darksword Trilogy)
*Orson Scott Card(Ender's Game, etc.)
*Elizibeth Moon(Paksinarion)
*Dougalas Adams
*Anne McCaffrey(Pern, the ship books)
*Brian Jacques(Redwall)
*Alan Dean Foster(the Flinx and Commonwealth books)
*Anything else Dragonlance
*The Hole in the Ozone Scare(some of doesn't work, but they bring up some good points)
*Dune wasn't that bad, I've been told that the sequels were, and I enjoyed the the prequels.
The only classic I read were miscelaneous stuff from school, the only Shaekespeare I read was "Romeo and Juliet" and the only Dickens I read is "Great Expectations." I wouldn't heve read any of it if my teachers hadn't had it in the curriculum.

Enjoy!

Just read - great read. I posted on a new thread for those who have read it. We may post spoilers, so dont go there if you have not read it.

Saucer: A Relic from the Past: A Bridge to the Future

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1590860780.01._PE30_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

To buy, I think you go to the first post and use the dynamic link...

Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
A flight of fancy and a departure from Coonts's bestselling techno-thrillers (Flight of the Intruder, etc.) pits an eager young grad student against seasoned military, government and corporate raider types for control of an ancient flying saucer dug out of a sandstone outcrop in the Sahara. Rip Cantrell is acting as gofer for a seismic survey when a glint of metal in the sand catches his eye. Aided by archeologists from a nearby dig, he unearths the ship, but the U.S. Air Force UFO team shows up followed shortly by armed thugs sent by Australian mogul Roger Hedrick. When the Libyan army appears on the scene as well, Rip and test pilot Capt. Charlotte (Charley) Pine manage to hijack the controls of the saucer, evading all their pursuers and flying to the Missouri farm of Rip's Uncle Egg, "inventor, wizard, mechanic extraordinaire." Egg cues Charley and Rip to the saucer's advanced flight capabilities, and they make decoy runs to mask their real location. But Hedrick tracks them down, and Charley is forced by a Hedrick operative to fly the saucer to the mogul's Australian ranch. Rip heads Down Under with rescue in mind when the UFO team (previously in Libyan captivity) are set free and tell all on TV, forcing Hedrick to change plans. He puts the saucer up for sale to one lucky nation, but has a sinister plan that Charley vows to disrupt. The moves get more deadly as the bidding begins, and Rip comes on the scene for a predictably spectacular ending. More Cussler than Clancy, this cartoonish slice of escapism is also more hokey than suspenseful ("But saucers do exist. There one is!"); still, it's tough to put down.

Rip? Charley (tomboy name to emphasize her toughness)? Roger Hedrick (sounds Australian)? Of course, good old Uncle Egg, an inventor oddball who's got the insight. This sounds highly flushable. Don't take it personally, kmguru. I've read plenty of crap in my time. I'm good at it. I guess I've got other priorities now (again, no value judgment on you, kind sir). Last SF I finished were the two Hyperion books. In agreement with Haldeman's Forever War - excellent social commentary as well. May I suggest Dick, Rucker, or even Ballard? Anyone else here sick of hearing how great Heinlein is?

John Le Coq

Well...if you put it that way...the story is designed for TV movies. I liked the bits and pieces like the headband communication with the computer and mainly how it takes a "village" (American humor) to maintain the society at a high technological level. It is better than a lot of crap we see on TV....

Heinlein's good, but as I said, there are plenty of other good ones out there. Perhaps I can turn the discussion to the Honor Harrinton novels by David Weber?

Teg, I agree with you about Heretics of Dune. I thought that was the highlight of the series after the first one. Overall, the series did bog down from time to time, but overall I found it rewarding. I've particularly enjoyed the prequels released the last few years (House Atriedes, House Harkonnen, etc) which I felt were in the same spirit as the original series and not just a cheap attempt to capitalize on a popular novelist.

I love the epics, particularly David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series (even if he does use the word 'shuddered' like some people use 'the'), Asimov's Foundation series, and Heinlein's "Lazarus Long" stories. Outside those, I love the twisted mind of Thomas Disch, particularly "Camp Concentration"; Philip K. Dick, of which "VALIS" is my favorite, and the essays of Harlan Ellison. I also have a weakness for Cyberpunk...Gibson, Sterling, Stephenson, et al. I love it that "Neuromancer" has as of yet remained untranslatable to film. Some works of art should remain unsullied.

Have you ever read sci fi from the '30s and such? It's really fun seeing what they thought we would be using and stuff.

I've read a lot more fantasy that I DIDN'T like than DID. What I consider the "good stuff":

Tolkien: The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings

Roger Zelazny: the "Amber" series (10 books)

Christopher Stasheff: "The Warlock in Spite of Himself" -- he wrote other books in the series but this is the only good one.

Robert Jordan: The Wheel of Time series -- the 10th book has just been announced and will be released in November

--

Speaking of scifi, which I no longer read much. I have to agree with some other posters. I just couldn't get through the "Dune" series. The first 2 were okay, but I got bogged down after that.

I've been reading Brian Joques' Redwall books. Anyone else read them?

Benford anyone?:
In the Ocean of Night, Across the Sea of Suns, Great Sky River, etc. etc. etc.

Niven and Pournelle. But only together. I don't dig the solo stuff.

Ursula K. Le Guin. But...I read most of that a long time ago...it may be dumb.


I agree with rde on the Dune issue. Only I liked the third one too. But I couldn't get through the first 20 pages of God Emperor or whatever (there was a lot of running). I'm willing to believe it's my fault but I think it's just slow.

Originally posted by Gifted
I've been reading Brian Joques' Redwall books. Anyone else read them?
I read (assuming you mean Brian Jacques :p) his Ramesses series, but then got bored and moved on to other stuff.

atm, I'm reading Warlock, by Wilbur Smith.

Yes, that's who I mean. Didn't have it in front of me and on names like that it's hard to spell from memory.

Boo!!

No support for Benford?!?

Who?

Gregory Benford

He's done some collaboration with Bear too. And I think he was part of the new foundation books, the ones made after Asimov's death.

Originally posted by 5th Replicant
Teg, I agree with you about Heretics of Dune. I thought that was the highlight of the series after the first one. Overall, the series did bog down from time to time, but overall I found it rewarding. I've particularly enjoyed the prequels released the last few years (House Atriedes, House Harkonnen, etc) which I felt were in the same spirit as the original series and not just a cheap attempt to capitalize on a popular novelist.

i must agree with what you say about the first six books which are among some of my favorites and i was wondering about getting around to reading the next ones are they that good, do you think that i would be dissapointed by them, or do you think that i could really enjoy them, being a dune book fanatic.

What????? Keith Laumer is not on the list!!!!!!!!!!! I love his Retief and BOLO stories. The Retief stories (which are very funny), in case you don't know, is about a character, Jame Retief, who works as a diplomat/spy for the Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne, and has to protect Earth interests from the Soviet-like Groaci. He is a futuristic version of James Bond. BOLO is a series about military tanks that have sentience.

JAME RETIEF IS THE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobodys mentioned Theodore Sturgeon, he's brilliant
and Howard Phillip Lovecraft is probably my favorite fantasy authors

Originally posted by iceonfire
my favorite Sf writer is Robert E. Howard and my favorite magazine is realms of Fantasy.

I'm glad someone mentioned him he's good, I remember his Conan books. He created Conan. He also killed himself.....

Originally posted by Stryderunknown
I'm not sure about the author Iain Bank, Although 1984 that the prophecy that Mankind is to have it's face ground by the heel of a boot.

(I think that's correct ,but if it isn't well... it's one of those memory glitches)

The author that I keep mentioning... is William Gibson for the Cyberpunk genre,Of course I'm not going to Leave out Bruce Sterling as another author to the genre.



I keep trying to read Neuromancer but never have time, I cannever get past the 2nd chapter.

Hm are you crazy?

You have forgotten one of the best fantasy writers there is .. Katherine Kerr and her Deverry serie =)

I agree though Robert Jordan is a great author (i love WoT) and also Orson Scott Card with his Shadow Thriology

What about Steven Brust? His <i>Jhereg</i> series is just damn good fun and <i>To Reign In Hell</i> is a truly entertaining version of the fall of the angels. Everything the man writes is superb. Heck, any sci/fi writer that also is in a rock band has to be a touch demented.

Personally I think you can beat the ABC of science fiction: Asimov, Brin and Clarke. Series like Foundation, Uplift and the 2001 set contain books with everything you want from good (space-based) science fiction novels.

When are they going to make a film version of Foundation?

(Plus: big respect to HG Wells and Jules Verne - the grandfathers of sci-fi)

I read Chapterhouse: Dune recently. :D Loved it, although the ending has me puzzled, I think that Frank was going to write a 7th but appearantly didn't. I have read some of Brian's sequals at the bookstore, simply put, his dad's genius didn't come out in his DNA.
Frank Herbert is, in my opinion, the best SF writer whooever lived. His talent is great, although I can point out obvious flaws in his books, it just shows his editor wasn't too good at his job.

I like Bradbury and Clarke.

It was one of them who wrote War of The Worlds, right? I don't remember. I thought that was a good books for something written in 1907 (I remeber that but not the guy's name.) Wait, HG Wells wrote it. I liked the invisible man too. All great works.

Hiya, welcome to sciforums:)

If you're interested in reading some cool scifi, I'd recommend Asimov's Foundation Series and Enders Game. Some cool books there, and there are many more.

Herbert is a scifi~writing god. It was taking me awhile to finish Heretics of Dune, I didn't have much time, and my friend got pissed off at me for not being quick enough about it so he took it back:(

I'll finish it someday.

I will check those out Polllux!

Piper had to have been on par with Herbert. I love the Fuzzy books! Problem is, nobody can find his notes, so we'll never know the rest of his "Future history." The company that published his books has offered a reward for the notes though, so if you know where they are...

Don't forget 'the time machine' - Wells wrote that as well! (a good yarn, even if the recent film was pants).

Has anyone out there read Clarke's RAMA series?
I've just finished 'Garden of Rama' and thought it was pretty damn good. Does the final book live up to expectations?

Plus: Why is everyone here so obsessed with Herbert?
There are other worlds out there...

Rama was pretty cool. I started on the second book, I've never read the first, but did read the rest.

Herbert is a healthy author to be obsessed with methinks:bugeye:

I am astonished that no one else has mentioned Stephen R. Donaldson's Gap series. These are absolutely, without question, the best science fiction I've ever read. If you have not read them, do yourself a favor, and read them now.

Caution: these books are not for the faint of heart, or for those easily offended by language, violence and sex.

Caution: these books are not for the faint of heart, or for those easily offended by language, violence and sex.

Hey, count me in!

What's "Gap" about?

link to first book at Amazon;

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553295098/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/002-1322424-5336813?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link

if you read those GAP books, let everyone know what you think, cause SciFi fans should read them.

Sure thing, paul.

F. Herbert - Dune!Dune!Dune!Dune!Dune!Dune!Dune!Dune!

(You get the point. His kids prequels are a nice visit back to my favorite universe.)

Any Heinlen - especially The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Azimov's - Foundation/Robot series

Orson Scott Card - Ender series (except, what's with books 2&3?)

Neil Stephenson is the hottest new author. Diamond Age and Snow Crash are a trip! Has he come out with anything since Cryptonomicon?

Julian May - The Galactic Mielieu series

Frederick Pohl - The Gateway series

Harry Turtledove - Worldwar series (just fun)

Alan Dean Foster - The Damned series (good - not great, but fun)

i'm still astonished that no one has yet mentioned the Gap series.

has no one read it, or do people just don't like it (i can't imagine the latter is true)?

Gap?

see my posts of 02/03/03

please enjoy these books

It's a false screen name! There is no paulsamuel! Only the writer of an unknown scifi series!:p

very funny!

but seriously, i can't fathom how scifi fans have not heard of it.

but, you'll thank me when you read them

Doh! Thanks.

Yo paul,
I read the 1st gap book. The gap into conflict I believe...I enjoyed it and meant to pick up the others but I guess I never got around to it.

I really enjoyed his thomas covenant fantasy series also.

Has anyone read any new sci-fi out there that leans to the more realistic/near term side of things? I want to read something new and not so 'out there'.

I am glad you started reading Gap series, however I guess I am surprised you were able to put it down. IMHO, these books were so compelling I couldn't stop reading.

:)

For anyone interested in older SF, I would recommend Before the Golden age, Three volumes edited by Isaac Asimov. Which contains some of the best SF stories form the years 1929-1938
and the 20 volume series, The Best SF Stories, also by Asimov, which covers the years 1939-58.

One author I haven't seen mentioned yet is Hal Clement, (Mission of Gravity & The Nitrogen Fix )

And what about "Doc" E.E. Smith, The 'Lensman' series?

If you've never read any Samuel Delany, you don't know what you're missing. William Gibson and Neal Gaiman are my favorite writers - but DHALGREN by Samuel Delany is the best book I've ever read.

William Gibson writes:

"Samuel Delany's DHALGREN is a prose-city, a labyrinth, a vast construct the reader learns to enter by any one of a multiplicity of doors. Once established in memory, it comes to have the feel of a climate, a season. It turns there, on the mind's horizon, exerting its own peculiar gravity, a tidal force urging the reader's re-entry. It is a literary singularity. It is a work of sustained conceptual daring, executed by the most remarkable prose stylist to have emerged from the culture of American science fiction."

Delany has even been called by some to be the father of cyberpunk, although he doesn't at all claim that title for himself, not even really knowing (at least at the time that he was asked about it) what cyberpunk IS.

Gibson's statement above is not hyperbolic - it is completely accurate. A part of my brain has been altered from reading this book - and it does stick with you like a memory of something you experienced. It could be months later, and you'll see something that makes you think of this book . . . but it doesn't feel like remembering something you read, it feels like remembering a place where you were. I am not exaggerating.

What's more - Delany has an incredible series of essays called Silent Interviews that will blow your mind. He's even done some work with comic books/graphic novels - that combined with his deep theoretical understanding and his radical politics makes him my hero.

By the way - nobody's even bothered to mention Philip K. Dick?
Someone did mention Iain Banks, and he is by far one of my favorites. The Wasp Factory is a gorgeous book; completely unpredictable. He's especially brilliant because he writes these masterpiece novels, and then he also writes the "trashy" sort of sci-fi under the name Iain M. Banks (like "Look To Windward").

Anyway, you must read Dhalgren before you die.

From Deena in August:


Benford anyone?:
In the Ocean of Night, Across the Sea of Suns, Great Sky River, etc. etc. etc.


and September:


Gregory Benford

He's done some collaboration with Bear too. And I think he was part of the new foundation books, the ones made after Asimov's death.

I wish I'd been on the forum then to back her up.

The best novel Gregory Benford ever wrote, and probably the best time travel (sort of) novel ever written was Timescape. If you have not read it, quit whatever you are doing now, find a copy and read it.

Another candidate for the best time travel (sort of) novel was Thrice Upon a Time by James Hogan.

The worst time travel novel is, of course, Timeline, by Michael Crichton.

Some fantastic books (in no particular order)



Guy Gavriel Kay - Tigana
China Mieville - 'Perdido Street Station' and 'The Scar'
Robert Mccammon - Swan Song
Mathew Woodring Stover - Hero's Die
Neil Gaiman - American Gods
Clive Barker - Imajica and Weaveworld
Philip Pullman - His dark materials triolgy
Robert Zelazny - Great book of amber (read the first 5 at least!)
Michael Marshall Smith - only forward and Spares

I saw on scifi.com that they're in the early early stages of making a "The Golden Compass" Movie. Should be pretty sweet...

Well, then I guess that I am helping sciforums.com by buying every single one of those books;)

Originally posted by Pollux V
I saw on scifi.com that they're in the early early stages of making a "The Golden Compass" Movie. Should be pretty sweet...

Fantastic! going to go and check it out!

Authors whom I've enjoyed:
Robert Heinlein
Robert Jordan
Frank Herbert
JRR Tolkien
JK Rowlings
John Christopher
James Clavell
Margret Weiss and Tracy Hickman(Dragonlance Chronicles)
Brain Herbert
Richard Adams
Douglas Adams
Glen Cook

And probably some more that've slipped my mind

paulsamuel - Just finished Gap into Conflict. It was enjoyable. The characters were pretty twisted, though.

Oh, speaking of a little off... I forgot to mention the Gateway series by Frederick Pohl. That's an interesting story.

fadingCaptain - for "new" sf try Neil Stephenson - he pretty much rocks! Diamond Age, Snow Crash, and Cryptonomicon (last is not really sf, but excellent).

Originally posted by Klaatu
The worst time travel novel is, of course, Timeline, by Michael Crichton.

I was disappointed having bought the book. Wish I could have waited till it showed up at the library. Oh...well...win some lose some...

Originally posted by Janus58
And what about "Doc" E.E. Smith, The 'Lensman' series?

I love them! I don't even mind the three non-Smith follow ups, although I find them too cerebral for the all-out enjoyment of the original series.


Originally posted by Klaatu

The worst time travel novel is, of course, Timeline, by Michael Crichton.

I'm glad I'm not alone. I've harboured this guilty secret for so long... I must confess... I didn't even finish "Timeline". I found it too boring (and I finish almost everything... on principal if for no other reason).

I read "Five Patients" when it first came out and "Andromeda Strain" was a worthy first novel. Then I loved "The Terminal Man". I thought I'd found a writer that would never disappoint me. Then came "Sphere" and eventually "Timeline". Oh well... you always seem to find some bad ones.

Hey here comes a new thread...

barsoom

Wow, First time here and already Im posting like crazy. Lets see.......


S R Delaney is good, but sometimes difficult. Anyone, for example, read and enjoyed 'Triton"? One of my friends who is a Delaney fan couldnt finish it because the central character is a moaning minny.
Ive recently read "Stars in my pocket like grains of sand" and enjoyed it immensly, except I understand he hasnt written the second in the series!!!!!!!!!! ARghhhh.

As for Banks, Im getting a bit tired of him, since his culture novels are rather samey, you know, they have too much
( And this word has to the best of my knowledge been invented by me, I leave it here for peopel to use, but remember who made it up.)
Omnipotech, which makes life rather dull and boring, because they can do anything. All the interesting stuff happens at the edge of the culture, the interface between it and lower tech more desperate cultures, and hes virtually mined that out in my opinion. When look to windward has things liek the lava rafting, banks is being clever but not ultimately anything more. (except entertaining, in a rather familiar fashion)

Benfords good, I have the first two in that series, which is ocean of night and sea of suns, but there is a third isnt there? I find it an extremely depressing series.

Then E E Smith, his writing is well, entertaining. His books other than lensmen ones are sort of OK, such as teh Skylark series and "Spacehounds of ICP and so on, but they shorter. But in essence they are all the same, mindless entertainment.

As for teh gap series, lets see, maybe I was having an off day, but I found the first one a little boring. Donaldson seems slow in building up to things, but I dont find myself enjoying the tension and character building very much.

Talking of characters, Alastari reynolds "Revelation space" has rubbish ones. One of my friends threw teh book across the room half way into it because he didnt like any of them and htought Mr Reynolds did them really badly. Which I agree with, I didnt start atually getting on with any of them until the last few pages, then when it was all over I thought oh well, that was barely worth it. And now hes done a wheen more?? Hey, I can write just as well as him, but I dont see anyone approaching me to publish anything. (thatll be because I havnt had anything published then....) Wake up people, and see beyond the nice gadgetry and knowledgable use of physics.


Then what about Greg Egan? I loved "Distress", got kind of bored with Terranesia, and thought Quarantine was ok, but was fed up with him using quantum wibble as the explanation. Its like reversing the whatsernames on star trek.

I sympathise with FAdingCaptain, in my opinion theres too much far out wibbly Omnipotech (see above) getting in the way of realistic exploration of hte next 30 years. Rememebr the golden age! Remember Heinlein and Clarke and others stuff, all set 10, 20 years ago, with rockets and space stations and stuff. It seems that getting across how a cell works is a bit more complex and more boring than how a rocket works, and seeing as biotech is beggining to show promise, someone will have to write mroe on that.


"Herbert is a scifi~writing god. It was taking me awhile to finish Heretics of Dune, I didn't have much time, and my friend got pissed off at me for not being quick enough about it so he took it back"

Quick, Pollux V, get it back off him now. Did you enjoy God Emperor?
(*SPOILER ALERT*)
I like the way that killing off half the main characters by the end is actually the whole point of the book, I mean where else does that happen?
Finish Heretics first, it finishes great. then get onto Chapterhous Dune, in one way its more of the same, yet is gripping and flavoursome in a distinct fashion, like all the previous novels.

Dean Koontz

I like the fact that his books (by that I mean books originally published under his name), fool you by postulating a supernatural cause for the events in the book and by the end of the book, he has given you a rational, science based answer for the weird stuff.

A couple of good one to try first are;

Midnight - It's not a werewolf story... really!

Lightning - A SF fan will pick up quickly on the kind of story this is, however there's still a surprise you probably won't see coming.

Watchers - A love story with a twist. Genetic enhancement anyone?

Anyone who has stayed away from Koontz because of the "Horror" image should gave him a try.

barsoom

I'm actually re-reading Dune right now. It is thoroughly enjoyable, however if I hadn't seen the miniseries I bet I'd be more confused than a Tlielaxu at a midget's convention.

What do you mean confused? Dune itself is fairly self explanatory, I understood it well enough first time ruiond, but it took a second and third reading to make full sense and get the hang of the nuances in it.

My favourite continuing series are

Fantasy: The Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay edges out LOTR

Sci-Fi: The Deathstalker series by Simon R. Green is a real fast paced, breezy, fun read, like Star Wars meets the X-Men.

For sheer world building you have to doff your hat to the Dune series.(Although I do think the last two books are somewhat hard to read)

Originally posted by rde I don't agree with you therefore I obviously didn't read the books. Well, I can't argue with logic like that.
There are an number of factors that could have inhibited your judgment in these matters. I can imagine that perhaps you were probably turned off by the completely distinct story arc, only one character from the previous books, and certain events concerning the titular planet. But all of these are great twists.

Concur, barsoom, Lightning was very good. I'll have to try the other two.

Is that the same "Watchers" as the movie Keanu was in a year or so ago?

I'm reading what there is of the Otherworld series. It's not really doing it for me. I'm just slogging through.

Originally posted by Dana D


Is that the same "Watchers" as the movie Keanu was in a year or so ago?



No it isn't. Koontz's "Watchers" was made into a terrible movie starring Corey Haim and Michael Ironside. It was then remade into a slightly less bad, "Watchers II" (a remake NOT a sequel) starring Marc Singer and Tracy Scoggins. There has also been a "Watchers III" movie but I haven't worked up the courage to rent it yet.

Orson Scott Card is my fav sci/fi author, especially the Ender books

Tolkien is the best fantasy there is :D


much luv to dune as well

I found Midnight by Koontz to be a dull ride. The central story was an OK premise, but in that book Koontz hammered in his literary themes like railroad spikes... you know,

(CLANG)

Fear of death/fear of living dichotomy

(CLANG)

Animal's unthinking emotion/Machine's unfeeling intelligence dichotomy

(CLANG)

New technology causes people's inner desires to manifest themselves physically

(CLANG)
(CLANG)
(CLANG)

It got boring after a while. Sometimes a theme should be a subtle, pervading atmosphere rather than a huge, neon sign stating exactly what you are supposed to think.

That said I never read any of his other books... perhaps they were more finely crafted.

As for Dune...

Anyone who thinks that God Emperor of Dune is dull should go back and have another look just for fun.
My favourite scene is where the Imperial Retinue is on a trip, and ten thousand Face Dancers all jump out looking like Duncan Idaho and all Face Dance around.
However, in making this plan they underestimated the God Emperor's vast ability to, well, kill Duncan Idaho. He runs them all over with his giant Worm jeep.

In the midst of all of the intricate politicking and intrigue, this scene made me laugh out loud.
Maybe it wasn't supposed to be funny...

Im absolutely SHOCKED no one mentioned George RR Martins A-Song-Of-Ice-And-Fire Series. Fourth book is coming out soon, and as far as alot of people who read the books are concerned, this surpasses even tolkins work.

Im absolutely SHOCKED no one mentioned George RR Martins A-Song-Of-Ice-And-Fire Series.

I agree. Rabid fools. They know not what brilliance it.

Understand, GRR Martin is an actual writer, unlike the those empty-headed printing press money-grubbing clone machines- Goodkind, Jordan, and the rest. His stories are utterly breath taking.

DUNE- can someone please explain the point of this book? I swear I read everything up to Emperor (so there must be something about it), but it seems as if the author made no definitive point whatsoever. Since there is a lot of lecturing going on in the books, I suppose there should be a point. What is it?

Originally posted by Inquisitor


DUNE- can someone please explain the point of this book? I swear I read everything up to Emperor (so there must be something about it), but it seems as if the author made no definitive point whatsoever. Since there is a lot of lecturing going on in the books, I suppose there should be a point. What is it? Besides the genius of the plot? Besides the political intrigue (and what it teaches us about politics today)? Besides the demonstration of the role of religion in population motivation and politics? Besides the insights of history and its influence on contemporary society? Besides combining all this into a coherent whole?

Perhaps you should stick to the Star Trek and Star Wars novels (and I use the word 'novel' extremely loosely).

Inquisitor:

Since Dune is a pretty complex series (and I haven't finished it yet) I can only briefly and inaccurately explain. Also, bear in mind that others will almost definitely NOT agree with my assessment; this may be because they know more about the series than I or may be because they interpreted it differently.

One major point, which comes up in God Emperor of Dune, is the idea of the Golden Path. Paul Atreides talked about the Golden Path earlier in the series, but it turned out that he was too much of a nerd to actually do it. What's the Golden Path? It goes something like this.

Leto (who becomes a Sandworm) believes that all of human society descended from the Greco-Roman society of Earth which only he can remember (with his fantastic genetic memory powers). The Greco-Romans (or whatever) inherited an idea which I believe he referred to as the Pharaonic model of leadership/government. Leto believed that the inherent decay of society was not actually inherent, but arose from the adherence to this pharaonic model of investing a divine mandate in a leader. War and social decay in its present form could be prevented if a way could be found to stop society from following this idea of a divinely correct (or at least inherently correct) leader.

So what does he do? He sets himself up as the de facto leader of the entire universe. How does this work? Well, it's like this.

He's the only remaining sandworm because he got rid of all the others by irrigating the planet.
Only sandworms make the spice, which is necessary for space travel, prolonging of life, and other important things. Without spice, the whole of galactic civilization grinds to a halt.

So no one can kill him.

Then he sets about being the hugest nastiest bastard that he can possibly be. He develops all of his divine mandates to their utmost power and then abuses them so badly that everyone in the known universe is totally sick of him and they all wish he would die. Not only that, but they don't want anyone to replace him and they all just want to be left alone.

The theory is that when he does die, or leave the stage, or whatever, everyone will abandon the idea of another divine replacement, and fall into some other less stagnating system of government.

*** This is as much as I actually know. Now I start predicting.

This is all great except for the part about Duncan. I have been told in the past that Duncan Idaho is actually the main character of the Dune series, even though it doesn't look like that at the beginning.

(One of the reasons I was given for this was that Dune is a diminutive form of Duncan; Duncan may actually be a microcosmic representation of the planet and vice versa.)

When the rest of the system collapses there will be no more Atreides - however gigantic and bloated and hideous Leto may be, he's still an Atreides and Duncan seems to think of him that way.

But, when Leto finally dies and Duncan is left behind as an unattached ghola, it's unlikely that he'll ever be revived again if he dies; consequently, the life that was rather obtusely put on hold when he was killed so long ago can finally restart...

I've not finished God Emperor yet, so my own conjectures are probably a little off. But that's what I think.

Paulsamuel,


Besides the genius of the plot? Besides the political intrigue…

Yeah, that’s nice, but what’s the point?


Besides the demonstration of the role of religion in population motivation and politics?

“As you near the ass, the legs get thicker,” is an old Russian proverb meant to characterize the practice of stating absolutely obvious things. Everyone knows that religion motivates politics- I get as much from the The Three Musketeers, but few authors make it the central message of their novel.


Besides combining all this into a coherent whole?

Still, what’s the theme of the story? Religion is bad? Government X is the best form of government? People are A, B, C, and D? Politicians are E, F, G, and H?


Perhaps you should stick to the Star Trek and Star Wars novels (and I use the word 'novel' extremely loosely).

I can’t stick those novels because I don’t read them. They have little or no meaning. I read Herbert primarily because I was fascinated by his imagination- and because he seemed to be trying to make a point- one I hoped to identify in the long run. I never did.

There are books and movies (the Matrix 2, for example) that hope to achieve a level of refinement by throwing around intelligent phrases and doublespeak. People buy into it, but can never make a definitive claim as to what the artwork’s meaning is (aside from some uninteresting and worthless generalizations).

I have reason to suppose that I may be mistaken about the Dune series. But it’s extensive monologues, especially the ones by Leto in Emperor of Dune, seemed to be vague and equivocal- with no clear message to them. I may be wrong, that’s why I asked that someone explain what I missed or didn’t understand.

Very good Bigwhitehead.

A couple of points;

Leto remembers much further back than Greco-Roman times, and, a 'Pharaonic model of leadership/government' preceeds Roman ascendancy by about 2000 years (in Egypt).

And, just to please you, many believe (myself included) that the last 2 books in the series are the best. Look forward to a great ride.

Big Blue,

That’s interesting, however, wasn’t the last Emperor “Shada-something” regarded as pretty much human? In that case, why is the deification of leaders (which doesn’t often occur anymore in actuality, by the way) considered by Leto to be a problem? How does this come about as being a philosophical or political message, of sorts- if it is meant to be one. Does it resound throughout the entire series? You gave me a good plot summary, but aside from that, I’m still perplexed as to the point.

Paul:

Leto remembers much further back than Greco-Roman times
et cetera. I know, the pharaonic model refers to pharaohs. These, and the length of Leto's memory, are minor details; the importance is the pervasiveness of the model of government.

Inquisitor:
Leto was saying that is was the wholesale passing on of responsibility to the leader, not their deification; the leader is expected to tell people not only how to help with the grand social vision, but also how to behave, how to feel... Leto's complaint about the system was that each person looked up to him (or some other leader, in other times) to tell them how to be, instead of deciding for themselves as some kind of collective, or some other system like that...

The idea was that the citizen turned over their civil responsibility to intelligence by giving all such responsibilities to the leader instead.

If the President of the US decided to take an action that blew up in his face in a predictable way, what would the citizens of the US do? Would they say, "We were wrong to support the President in such an obviously foolish action?" Nah, they'd say, "We need a new President. This one sucks."

All civil responsibility is therefore invested in the leader, because when the country's actions go wrong, its citizens claim that it's the fault of the leader that they appointed. "Beyond the choice of a representative," they say, "we don't want to understand anything about what our country does." That way, when things go wrong, they can protect themselves with claims of ignorance and helplessness.

What's wrong with this model? Leto demonstrates.

Imagine if the giant worm is the President of the US.

He gets up today on the TV, and says,

"Inquisitor (that's you) has been investigated and found to be corrupt and utterly lacking in moral fibre. He (or she) is an example of the most hideous failure of our inability to foster human goodness in the pathetic and wasted shells of people like him (or her). As such, his house will be bombed into ashes at 9:48 this morning, Eastern Standard Time. Bless you all, except for Inquisitor. Good morning."

You check your watch, and it's 9:48. So, what're you gonna do, vote? You gave up your civil responsibilities in the last election (assuming you ever had a chance to exercise them at all) to a giant worm who's about to kill you. And the best part is, you gave away that civil responsibility to him whether you voted for him or not. All you can really do now is have them carve "This President sucks. We need a new one," on your tombstone.

That's the point. Leto is trying to break people's dependence on this kind of leader, by pissing them off so bad that they don't want him, and ensuring that there's no one else who could even come close to replacing him.

Big Blue

Hmm, thanks. Perhaps I'll read it again to see what I didn't catch.

BigBluehead has it right. As someone whose read the entire series possibly three times, I can confirm he has summed it up pretty damn well.

Your look at Duncan is also important. you could say he is the consistently "noraml" human view in the series. Or the lively human view. Its kind of hard to explain, but as you can see he becomes more important as the series goes on, I think as a comparison of human development, as a demonstration of that development, and of a symbol of potential in a changing universe.

Oh yes, and I want to know what you all think once youve finished the series.

I wasn't sure because I haven't read the whole series yet, but I had the feeling that Duncan would ultimately represent Leto's failure to break the pharaonic mode of government of social responsibility.

My assumption in that regard would be that when Leto finally kicked the bucket or transcended reality or what not, everyone would turn to Duncan and ask him what to do, thus destroying the whole Golden Path thing in a flood of human stupidity.

But I've only read up to God Emperor... so I'm not sure about that.

Well, hurry up and read the others, surely you have a bookshop or a library nearby? If you were in the UK I'd lend you mine, but you can usually find them in any good bookshop.
With regards to Duncan, I would say your only partly, a wee bit, correct. Adn wait till you finish god emperor! It has one of the oddest yet most appropriate endings ive ever read. hehehehheeh.

Originally posted by Gifted
I've been reading Brian Joques' Redwall books. Anyone else read them?


i havnt read those books but there was a show on pbs that i watched about redwall

I'd warn you about Redwall... everyone loved it for a long time but there's about 1 million Redwall books now, and even Brian Jacques' fans are telling him to stop writing them.

Who? Are they any good?

The Redwall series are a sort of fantasy series that have animal characters but still use basically use medieval Europe as their background.

The use of animal characters is in a style that I don't particularly like, which is where animal species represent characterization; being a stoat, for instance, makes you a bad person (especially if you have a name like Cragtooth). This is sort of strange because being a badger makes you a good person... but anyway.

Of course I have a beef with popular fantasy for its prejudicial theories of identity, so I may be a little sensitive about this issue...

"Of course I have a beef with popular fantasy for its prejudicial theories of identity, so I may be a little sensitive about this issue..."

Quick, write up a mini essay, so we can have a debate about it or spot examples of it or something, this place is lacking in quality discussion about books.

Have you read the wind in the willows?

Stunties and Longears: Themes of Identity in Fantasy Literature

Part 1: The Use of Archetypes to Support Identity

The use of intelligent non-human characters has been a long tradition in fantasy literature. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Orcs, and Hobbits all represented different cultural and racial populations. C.S. Lewis, in the Chronicles of Narnia, wrote about human beings, but also a large cast of talking animals and mythic creatures such as fauns and dryads. The cultural variety that this provides in a fantasy story can be helpful in painting a more varied world that comes with its own premade division points to make cultural differentiation simpler for the reader. Rather than try to describe superficially similar characters in such a way as to accentuate their cultural differences, the author can explain a series of cultures in connection with superficial characteristics, and thereafter conjure a strong correlation with what people in the story look like (in the imagination of the reader) and how they behave.

Once the division is made properly in the narrative, a single word is enough to communicate the innate characteristics of one person - "The elf shook his head in disagreement." This is a powerful tool in storytelling, permitting a more compact text to deliver more meaning to the reader. Even in the case of a character who does not conform to the standards of their society, it is immediately a surprise to the reader - they do not need to relearn the entire social structure to be able to appreciate the importance of the "elf who doesn't speak to trees".

(John Cleese once spoke of the internal logic of a humourous sketch, saying that if a sketch begins with four people dressed as carrots sitting in dumpsters, and a person in a tuxedo walks onto the stage, the viewer will immediately ask why he is not dressed as a carrot and not sitting in a dumpster. This applies, in a certain way, to all storytelling; the beginning of the story is accepted as being its framework.)

However, the strong sense of culture in fantasy stories lends itself to a minor literary difficulty, which is what I shall call Appearance as Identity. This, in short, is where a person's characterization identifies so closely with their culture that different individuals of that culture are only really distinguishable by name. This is a form of laziness on the part of the author because it relies on the cultural background - itself sometimes only implied - to do the work of characterization.

An example of this problem is the animal-people story, an outgrowth of the talking animal stories like those of Thornton Burgess and Richard Adams.

The Talking Animal story generally refers to a story in which animals talk, and usually all share some common animal language, but otherwise generally go about being like the animals that they are supposed to be - birds fly and make nests, weasels and foxes hunt, toads eat flies and bury themselves in the mud. The only supposed difference between the real lives of animals and those depicted in the Talking Animal story is that we are permitted to understand communications that might go on between them.

I should briefly distinguish between the Animal-People story and the Anthropomorphized Animal / Furry story. The AA/Furry story generally assumes the burden of explanation as to where the anthropomorphized animals came from - seperate evolution, genetic engineering or mutation, or some explicable source. In science fiction, the AA's tend to be mutants or designer animals, or creatures from another planet; in fantasy AA stories they tend to take place in a different world where such creatures have existed as long as humans have on Earth.
This distinguishes these stories from the Animal-People stories, where if a person is a mouse, then even if they walk upright, speak English, wear clothes and shoes and live in a castle, they are still a mouse and identify directly with those characteristics that are traditionally associated with mice, usually even as far as relative physical size. Mice are shy and furtive, dogs are loyal and tenacious, weasels are malicious and violent. Although individual characters will have individual strengths and weaknesses, the assumed characterization of their species still predominates in their description. (Again, even if they are a "surprise", the nice weasel, the tough rabbit.)

This in itself is not a major literary problem; at worst it is a bit of laziness that will have a deleterious effect on an author's work, by weakening the individual presence of supporting characters. However, it has given rise to a larger problem, a kind of internal cultural stagnation that has become a characteristic of some fantasy writing.

Part 2: The Assumption of Archetypes as a Representation of Identity

The use of archetype in characterization of some conventional fantasy characters, such as the Elf and the Dwarf, is quite common and has been supported by the fact that this represents a codified convention - that of Dungeons and Dragons, and the long series of novels that have descended from that roleplaying game. Dungeons and Dragons contains a description of "The Elf" and "The Dwarf" and their identifying characteristics as part of the core rules of the game; all of the Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms novels and other similar works that are set in this environment will be expected to conform fairly closely to the original reading of the game rules, and general cultural differences will only lead to a further subdivision within this context - the difference between "Dragonlance Elves" and "Forgotten Realms Elves".

This is a specific example of a more general theory of unified cultural identity of those races - Elves and Dwarves - and more generally any group of genetically differentiated people that show up in a fantasy story. In Redwall the groups are represented by animals instead, but the result is the same. Even if one person should rise above the limitations of their cultural background, the other members of that culture will still remain mired within it.

In Dragons of Autumn Twilight by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, there are two themes of identity that come out in the narrative, apparently contrasted against one another. Flint, a Dwarf, takes several moments to affirm his own cultural ideology for the reader, mainly that he likes to make things. This is contrasted against Tannis - half elf and half human, which in Dungeons and Dragons is referred to as "half-elf" - who laments his lack of a cultural identity because his parents were not what he would have wanted.

Given two aspects of Tannis' life, first, that his mixed parentage resulted in his being edged out of his society, and second, that he has since become a soldier of fortune relying on people from other societies who were more willing to accept him than his own, it seems strange in the context of the story that he would lament his lost place in a tribe of slightly xenophobic elves who never treated him very well.

More generally there has appeared a certain sort of jocular racist attitude that has become almost a fantasy convention, and is at times even supported by some unfortunate decisions in the codification of the racial standards. (I note, for instance, that the "Dwarven Women Have Beards" jibe even made it into The Two Towers movie. Since no Dwarven women were ever adequately described in Lord of the Rings, I must assume that this idea came from Dungeons and Dragons. Dwarves are also very often depicted as either Norwegian, which sort of makes sense, or as Scottish, which does not.) Wars between The Elves and The Dwarves also make up the background of many fantasy stories and story cycles, such as the back story from the Palladium Fantasy roleplaying system.

This sort of conventionalization of an insular and unchanging culture has affected fantasy literature; even though elves in one story may be very different from elves in another, they still share the same level of insularity in most cases. (Certainly I have never seen a character in any book who had both elven and dwarven ancestry.) This attitude of cultural insularity being an inborn and unchangeable trait has become quite recognizable and is represented as strongly in similar literary genres such as the Animal-People stories; often, in fantasy, a rich and complex system of social division and conflict is considered a good basis for a story.

Should this idea be considered a legitimate convention in fantasy stories? I believe that the literature should be more speculative, and not adopt such a restrictive convention, especially not one with such massive cultural ramifications; fantasy is supposed to be the imagination of a different and more interesting world, and to bring this idea of identity to fantasy stories with such regularity undermines the validity of these stories in my opinion.

Interesting. I dont think youll find anyone wanting to argue against that. I am having trouble thinking of such authors, mainly because I try and avoid them. It seems to me that since tolkein, most fantasy has been stuck in its own universe, althogh some author have managed to break out in various ways, except much of said brekaing out was done 20 yers ago or longer. I shall have to check my local bookstores and see what they have got.
When i saw LOTR, I immediately thought it was odd how the modern, evolved and stereotypical fantasy had been fed back into the original story that had started the modern obsession off.
Of cours,e not getting too adverturous helps ensure success in the mass market world, yet still leaves people crying out for something half way origginal, which if produced will sweep the bookshops.

I haven't read a lot of recent fantasy, since I have trouble differentiating one book from another; last fantasy book I got was Marsha Wells' Wheel of the Infinite...

"He's a rugged frontiersman with long, blond hair and a lust for life...
She's a lonely middle-aged lady who looks a lot like the author...
Someone else better get a plan for saving the world 'cause damn but they sound busy in there."

I like romance novels as well as... okay, I don't like them. The setting doesn't change the content.

Maybe someone could advise me of a good fantasy novel/series?(I generally prefer stand-alone books, but they don't write those much recently.)

BTW, I'll be very surprised if no one posts in favour of cultural identity as a literary device...

Hey, yoru beggining to sound like me! Im getting a little bored iwth all the usual stereotypes myself.

Recent fantasy, you coudl try K J Parker, and his (i think its a he, biographical info is hard ot find, even though theyve written 2 trilogies) fencer trilogy. It almost works, though theres a bit of the cultural identity as plot device in the third book, but the rest of them work ok, since although theres people clashing, that are from different cultures, (think barbarians versus civilisation etc.) it works as a story. And theres not much romance in them. Although there is a flaw with regards to the civilisation and countrys bit, ie that they arent linked enough.

I think someone might post in favour of cultural identity as a literary device, if it hadnt been overused already, as you point out.

I take it your after really different, fantastic fantasy? Sorry, dont know any. I assume youve read stuff like the new wave from 30 years ago, Michael Moorcock et al? And Lord Dunsany from 80 years ago?

I'm writing a few fantasy stype stories myself, but most of them are sufficiently "normal" except with the inclusion of magic etc etc, that they arent what your looking for. Theyre just entertainment i want to write myself. hhmm, that reminds me of a dream i had recently, i wonder if I could parley that into fantasy......

Dont read any Kirsten Brittan (or britain? cant remember.) its stereotypical as hell, even as its an entertaining read.

i think J V Jones is rather good, although ive only read two of her books. She is quite new, been around for 6 or 8 years.

Micahel Swanwick - "The iron Dragons daughter"
is very good. read it. its a stand alone single book.
In fact read anything by Swanwick, he doesnt write much but what he does is good.
And try Alan Garner, he writes childrens books, but I still find them entertaining now, over a decade later.

OK, fantasy. I have forgotten much of what i was thinking about at work, since that was a few hours ago, but essentially, my troble is that there are only so many story types you can get. boy meets girl, fall in love, save one from danger, etc. Or Good versus evil, usually in the most obvious way possible. Now, how much do we read so many stoires like that because of their archetypal nature, and how much simply because thats all you can write. I sometimes think you could write something completely new and original and different, but only you and 2 other people would actually read it, and only you would enjoy it. You see, in order ot be a published book, it has to have some sort of commonality with other people, such that they will understand most of it. This is where archetypes come in, these commonplace ideals of storys that have been seen in most stories going back thousands of years. For example, i have just read a prose translation of Beowulf, and it is little different from something you would see on our tv screens today, and I can see where TOlkein got so much of LOTR from. However, what makes tolkein special in my opinion, is not only the depth of world he creates, but the essence of it that he distills onto the pages. There is akind of purity about it, and about hte bets writing out there, it fits into and utilises the familiar archetypes, yet does so in a new, interesting manner, without changing the underlying story structure. Like a house has four walls and a roof almsot everywhere, a kind of essence like the old philsosophers woudl go on about. But that still emans we are trapped within these essences, unable to get outside them, forever repeating the old ways with the occaisional twist ( lovers get killed, the boy turns out to be an alien etc) and new wallpaper on them. So that brings me back to writing something completely outside these boxes, and I am not sure it is possible, or even desirable. Push the boundaries by all means, but something so far outside the boundaries its on a different continent isnt much use as a story, given what stories are for. One way you can push the boundaries is to wirte new stuff juxtaposed on top of old stuff, ie humans plus new technology and changes tehreof, or aliens whoa re yet similar enough to be nearly comprehendable to us.

I read the Iron Dragon's Daughter, or most of it, but I didn't like it very much. I think some books may be more fun to write than they are to read.

The appearance of universal conventions in fantasy is kind of illusory... there have just been so many poser authors that the genre has become pretty stagnant.

There is also a small problem with publishing/distribution, because the publishers (like Avon, I think) have slowly been merging fantasy and romance into a synthesized genre, with books like Silversword and that time traveler series. These are, in a sense, legitimate fantasy stories (or at least historical fantasy in the case of Silversword) but tend to adhere to romance novel conventions that make characterization grating for me.

Anyway...

Many popular fantasy novels have an aspect relating to strength of character, which is nice as a literary premise but is not perfect from the standpoint of good writing; an example of the total failure of this concept is The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper.

(In The Dark is Rising, the main character very quickly learns that the villain is totally powerless and that he is in no danger as long as he believes in himself. This removes any sense of dramatic tension that the story might have had. Similarly, in David Eddings' Malloreon, we learn over the course of the story that one of the characters is a newborn god, and that all things in the world basically bend to his will.)

Relying on tangible willpower as a mechanism for resolving plot complications removes one of the main sources of tension that a story can have, that of an insoluble problem; having read so many of them now, it is difficult to appreciate a story where our heroes can save the world by concentrating hard enough.

Much as I dislike using Terry Brooks as an example, the Sword of Shannara included a villain who couldn't be defeated by normal means because he was a kind of Cartesian paradox, a dead person who tricked himself into believing that he still existed. This was philosophically annoying but at least supplied a sort of different mechanic for that villain, slightly better than in the Elfstones where some demons just kind of come out of a hole. (I still consider the Elfstones to be a better read though...)

The fantasy genre itself has simply become mired in unfortunate conventions... there isn't any reason why a more original story couldn't be written, but as you say they don't often get published. Ask yourself, for instance, why the Dungeons and Dragons movie that came out a while ago started with the characters being Sucked into the Magic Dungeon Master's Guide? I would have thought that was a plot point we all wanted to avoid...

There's more originality and speculation in present-day science fiction, which is one of the reasons why I haven't read any fantasy stories for a while.

In the main, I don't like reading stories where
- In the past, Man destroyed the world and his own civilization with vast energies
- evil 'is an illusion' and can be dispelled by clapping your hands or some other such trivial action
- one person inherits some blood factor that makes them "the hero of prophecy"
- hell, prophecies in general, can't stand 'em

If you look at stories like Twilight Kingdoms or Wizenbeak, they don't encompass the world in their scope, they don't involve a Good vs. Evil conflict, and they don't really conclude with "they lived happily ever after". This doesn't necessarily make them good books, Twilight Kingdoms was like a barroom brawl that lasted for three hundred pages, but at least it can suck on its own merits instead of sucking along with everyone else.

DAmn, ive been agreeing with you on just about everything youve posted on the entire damn forum, and you disnt like the iron dragons daughter? Heathen.
In some ways i agree, it wasnt so nice to read, but then thats what you get when you stray away from the mainstream, stuff that is harder to read and understand because its different, not so normal. Or thats how I see it, but htis is a subjective part of life.

youve read susan cooper? I read all that when I was 15, thought it was great then, dont remember it being as simplistic as you just said it was. you are american, arent you? If you are, i kind of got ther impression ages ago that nobody outside the UK knew about susan cooper. But then if you were Uk based surely you would know about alan garner.

"having read so many of them now, it is difficult to appreciate a story where our heroes can save the world by concentrating hard enough."

I have a story in progress that goes way beyond that.


"The appearance of universal conventions in fantasy is kind of illusory... there have just been so many poser authors that the genre has become pretty stagnant."

Aorry to get logical on you, but isnt a genre full of stuff that is similar and stagnant effectively the same as one with universal conventions?

I read the sword of shannara and htought what sort of rip off crap is this? At least "magician" starts sort of bad, but kind of transcends it, whereas Brooks never really did, its like he took a cop out ending.

YOu know, it seems to me youar emainly picking on the kind of dungeons and dragons kind of fantasy, whereas there is a kind of fantasy different to it, I just cant think what its called just now, and where ive seen it.

There is more speculaiton in modern scifi, but theres also a great deal of non- science, as I have bemoaned over various previous threads, you can find them if you dig back a few months. Too much "wibble wibble nanotech blah blah wormholes rhubarb rhubarb" kind of stuff.

I agree that Sword of Shannara was a painfully obvious rip of LOTR, enough that it offended me when I was twelve...

As for The Dark is Rising, I thought it was okay when I was a kid, but I went back and read it a couple of years ago and realized that the villain was a total paper tiger, and never did anything but threaten because that was all he was capable of.

It was sort of like if, in the Wheel of Time, all that the Lord of Lies could do was that wine cup dream, over and over again.

"Drink. C'mon, drink!"

When the struggle in a story is internal like this, the main character trying not to give in to the endless looming harassment of the villain, it removes some of the sense of danger... it reduces the terms of the conflict to Our Hero, locked in a room with a big red button that says "Give Up" on it, trying not to press it. Sitting on their hands, biting their nails, averting their eyes. Will he press the button?

Big Bad Lord: Go on, press the button.
Hero: Noooo!
BBL: It'll go "click"! It'll be so satisfying.
H: Noooo!
BBL: It's easy, just extend your finger like this...
H: NOOO!

Ad nauseum. In the Wheel of Time there was also a sense of immediate physical danger that gave the characters' tests of willpower some added urgency.

As for your comment about stagnation, uh... yes and no. If a genre is defined by a convention, then it could be considered universal. On the other hand, if you wrote a story about unicorns and magic crystals and spells and swordplay and monsters, and it didn't have the G vs. E theme, would that make it "not fantasy"? Probably not... it would still score high enough on the fantasy scale to be considered a part of the genre.

In any case, even if a genre is characterized by poor quality, that doesn't make poor quality an entrance requirement.

With respect to the unscience fiction, yeah, I'm forced to agree. Some stories use nanotech to virtually replace magic as a plot mover/resolver. (One story that didn't was Bloom...)

Usually when a plot mover is introduced into a story, we have some idea of how much we need to know about it; the One Ring, for instance, is described as having great arbitrary power which we generally understand is not to fall into the hands of anyone who would use it for anything... the Force (in the first SW trilogy anyway) was a vastly increased intuition/telepathy/telekinesis, whose uses and capacities were illustrated within the story by the way it was used.

To contrast the Force to the nanotech excuse - I am of the belief that an explanation of the Force (midichlorians &c) actually weakened its narrative effect. In some stories things are better left to the imagination.

If we look at a story like the Magic of Recluce, we see that the author tried to make a magical system that was coherent and understandable to the reader; the explanation weakened somewhat as the story went along, but the attempt was still an honest one. (I can't speak for the sequels, The Order War &c.)

On the other hand, in Harry Potter, despite the fact that the narrative follows a person who is supposed to be in magic school, the workings of magic remain almost entirely a mystery. Given the way it seems to function, I thus far have assumed that some part of the Harry Potter universe is responsible for magic, and is a sentient being that interprets people's words and actions as being the base requirements for a certain magical effect. However, I'm working on incomplete information in this case because the narrative does not focus on magic except as a plot mover.

The degree to which a plot mover like magic or nanotech should be explained mostly relates to its intuitiveness as a concept (which is highly variable from one reader to another) and the degree to which the author wants to or is capable of exploring the concept.

Many authors do not have the science background necessary to explain the operation of nanotech within a story. With magic, the magical mechanics don't need to conform to scientific theory, but should still probably be consistent if they are going to be explained. Usually coherence is key...

Most of the author's being tottered back and forth around here I have read, some I agree are writing / wrote the best the genres has to offer. Others I wouldn't say so (R. Jordan).

Anyway, here's my list of recomendations -

Phillip K. Dick - The Man in the High Castle (Amazing!), Dr. Bloodmoney, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Issac Asimov - Foundation Series, Robot Stories
William Gibson - Neuromancer and its followups
Robert A. Heinlein - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Stranger in a Strange Land
Joe Halderman - The Forever War
Ray Bradbury - Martian Chronicles, Fahrenheit 451
Frank Herbert - Dune, I enjoyed the sequels but I know many did not.
Douglas Adams - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Roger Zelazny - Lord of Light, Amber Chronicles,
John Brunner - Stand on Zanzibar
Dan Simmons - Hyperion and Endymion books
Stephen Donaldson - Gap Series


George R. R Martin - A Song of Ice and Fire, finally something fresh in fantasy!
Bernard Cornwell - Warlord Chronicles, realistic take on Arthur
Robin Hobb - Farseer Trilogy, FitzChivalry is so fascinating
Tad Williams - Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
Guy Gavriel Kay - Lions of Al-Rassan is one of the most beautiful books I've ever had the pleasure of reading.
Terry Pratchett - Discworld! Anything that can make me laugh is considered awseome in my mind.
Phillip Pullman - His Dark Materials
Neil Gaiman - American Gods
Steven Erikson - THe Malazan Book of the Fallen

Maybe you guys can help. I've been looking for a collection of short stories by I believe Olaf Stapleton for a few years. Every story is about the creation of the soul and is written with pure genius. Any one who can help me find this book, I will appreciate it undyingly!

Thankyou

-kupotek
KittySafe Ntwrk.

I think some of the books are available at Amazon or Barnesnoble, paperback and used too...

Last and First Men and Star Maker : Two Science Fiction Novels
by Olaf Stapledon (Author)

Publishers: let customers search inside this book
List Price: $12.95
Price: $10.36
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours


40 used & new from $2.95

Edition: Paperback

Just finished the Foundation book.

Man, that mutton-chopped hag is brilliant.

the disc world is the best interlectual fantasy i have ever read, i only have about 4 books till the im out (PLEASE WRITE MORE:D)

fiona macantosh is really good, she is a newish author and only have 5 books out devided into 3 for the trinity and 2 for the quickening (which isnt finished yet)

eddings ROCKS
the 2 new eddings books are SOO up to standard and alithas (or how ever you spell it) was one of my all time fav

fiest is ok but way down on fav authors

timora piece is really good too, little girly but i like them (unfortunatly they are classifide as childrens books which makes checking if she has any new ones out embarasing)

I like terry pratchet, but for me the best fantasy writer of all time is Piers Anthony, he has written many books all of which are widely available.

The Magic of Xanth series 29 books (more coming soon)
The Split infinity trilogy 7 books (also known as the Aprentice adept series)
The Incarnations of imortality series 7 books
Bio of a space tyrant series 6 books
Mode series 4 books

so far todate Piers has written 126 books so there is plenty to read, not all of them are fantasy though some of them are sci-fi.
Anyway i will now stop beating the drum for him, it's just that nobody seems to mention him on these forums. :D

Weeell, I've read a little of Piers Anthony, and liked it (though didnt htink it world shaking.), but various others i've met/ seen, say that xanth is crap and he's getting boring. Hence the lack of mention.

Fair do's, wouldn't say he was crap tho'. some of xanth is not great but you have to read the incarnations of immortality series, each book is about a different character, death, time, fate, war, earth, good and evil
click here (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Incarnations%20of%20Immortality) to get a brief synopsis of each book.

2nd Pass is a new novel, just published last week. It is the first novel of a 9-book series. Check out the web site at www.2ndPass.com for some technical information, pretty amazing graphics of different vehicles and environments in the book, and lots of background information.

The book series is a future reality series. Space Industries Laboratory (SIL) is an orbital laboratory built by NASA that leases half of its space to corporations for development and manufacturing in zero gravity. A pissed off NASA employee sabotages the lab and sends it into an excentric orbit that passes near enough earth for contact only 4 months every 18 years. Second Pass is 36 years after the explosion. The inhabitants have created a non-Earth-reliant, sustainable environment and have declared themselves an independent nation. Power political forces from Earth are vying for control of this rogue nation.

The book is exciting and innovative. I hope you'll all check it out, buy a copy, look at the web site and jump on board a new sci-fi universe.

Graphic artist Ben Love of Chicago has created incredible graphic representations of the SIL universe, and will be continuously posting them onto the web site.


www.2ndPass.com

Samsung, what's wrong with Robert Jordan? It's one of the more addictive fantasy I've ever read, and I finished Terry Brooks (Shannara) and Eddings.

Tolkien wanted to create a modern myth and succeeded. I don't think anybody has had the resources to create truly new fantasy ever since, although many are arguably "better" stories than LOTR.

Terry brooks has nothing special, its all just a book. I think the same about fiest now unfortantly

Jordan is SOOOO commertial. Its so easy to tell he is in it for the money and not the story, his last book was nothing, and the one before that had barrly 2 chapters in it that developed the sierise. I have read them all and its easy to see that he gets WORSE as he goes along not better

Eddings and prachette (altho totally differents styles) are way above his league. They both show that they dont take there selves seriously, prachette through his whole world, eddings through his caricters especially people like silk and all the sorcers. Hell just look at belgarth, im sure he was baised on eddings himself. There is something very personal about him especially in belgarath the sorcer. Pratchette takes THIS world and makes his books the total oposite. I would love to meet him, what a MIND he must have. There are just so MANY levels to all his books. I belive prachette well outstripes tolken for his depth. The details he puts in, even going as far as to take the names of some of the scientific prinsipules and there meanings and giving them the funniest spin (example the big BANG theory and the uncirtanty princaple), in this they FAR outstrip jordan whos world seems to have nothing under it. Sure its good vs evil but that has been done to death so to speak and i want something more in my stories

I dont know what it is about pierce i liked so much, maybe my like of her books comes from my own "girly" side. Everyone likes to see love and romance a little and altho that may put some people off it is VERY well done and well worth reading even so

Just finished 'Red thunder' by john varley.

it is a rather pleasant book. I read it in one day (400+ pages). The story seems far fetched but John seems to be a master story teller. A group of young people building their own spaceship to go to Mars to beat the Chinese. It doesn't matter. The book is rather good. It is nice to see a change from the standard space opera shit we get nowadays.

It seems like a lot of good authors have just been skimmed over.......And if I just list them out it will happen again, so I will just mention a couple.

Most of Robert Heinlein's books are pretty good, with the exception of the ones published after he had been taken over by a pod person (e.g. Number of the Beast). I hated what they did when they turned Starship Troopers into a movie, though. They got rid of both the politics and the Power Armor, probably two of the best parts of the book.

The other is David Webber's Honor Harrington books. There really isn't much thinking in them, but they are nice for a bit of light stuff. And Treecats are one of the coolest species I have heard of.

I have to agree with Asquard on the Eddings issue, he was probably the first adult fantasy I read...when I was around eight...but I never get sick of him. I can reread his books and some of the newer ones are interesting too. Try the Redemption of Altalus and Regina's Song, although not fantasy is intrigueing.
I'm afraid I don't really like Jordan though. I loved the first couple books of his series, and after what 6 or 7 he was getting really old. Just the same stuff over and over again. I quit reading them somewhere around book 7 or 8 so if anything truly momentous happens let me know and maybe I'll start reading them again.

We seem to have a lot of fantasy listed here, so I'll go with some SciFi -
First off, I haven't seen anyone mention E E 'Doc' Smith, an absolutely brilliant author, though some aspects of his books sound a little dated nowadays.
Asimov is one of the greatest short story writers ever.
Heinlein - need I say more? The Moon is a Harch Mistress is easily his best (IMO), but everything before that is good as well.
Orson Scott Card's 'Unaccompanied Sonata' is an excellent collection of short stories.
Cordwainer Smith - his novellas are bizarre, but compulsively readable.
Oh, and I agree unreservedly with freeflight85's Heinlein comments.

*cough cough*
I've mentioned E E Smith once or twice, probably on this very thread, but that was a while back. I even have just abotu everything he has written, except the family d'alembert stories.

I need to read more Cordwainer smith though. And ive read most of Heinlein, can see some gaping flaws and his last books are a bit annoying, but hes still good.

Anyone read "the Wanderer" by Fritz Leiber? It was written over 30 years ago, but part of it near the end uncannily prefigures much of the modern big brained AI's with faster than light travel omnipotech wibble that is quite common in the bookstores these days.

The Cordwainer Smith I've read was a collection called the Rediscovery of Man, which was about £4 on Amazon, which is part of the SF Masterworks collection. Most of the series I've seen on Amazon were considerably cheaper than in bookshops.
BTW, whereabouts in Edinburgh are you? I started at the university this year.

About 8 miles south west of the city centre. (I am understandably reluctant to give out more details openly, but if youve got a map that narrows it down a bit.) Obviously your a student, which uni and subject?

Ahh yes, the SF masterworks. I'll probably get them sometime.

As for Smith, there were quite a lot going around 2nd hand, since he sold rather well in the UK in the 70's, especially the lensman series.

Edinburgh University, Maths and Physics Joint Honours. I'll have to have a look at some second hand book shops, I guess. I'll also keep an eye out for the Wanderer, thanks for the ideas.

Ideas of more books to read are good, thats what this thread is about.

HHmm, Edinburgh 2nd hand bookshops? I've been trying to buy fewer books this year due to lack of space to put them. I assume you know about down the university way out on Nicholson Street and CLerk street. Theres also "tills Bookshop" on Buccleuch street, as well as a couple of shops at the west port (ie the west end of the grassmarket). For SF these are the 2 main areas of bookshops, I would like to find more but havnt had time to go exploring.

Being a science student I'm mainly down at Kings Buildings during the day, and up until now I've had plenty to read, so I haven't really looked. I'll certainly have at least a quick browse after the exams are over.
Thanks again.

No problem. :)

Been reading Stephen Baxter's latest book 'exultant'. Bloody good. Even better if you have been reading his previous stories on Micheal Poole and the Xeelee's and other stuff. It all comes back.

The previous book Coalescent is also really good with a suprising new look on human evolution.

Anyone read the Neanderthal Parallax trilogy, it was amazing and interdiscplinary, about anthropology, genetics, quantum physics, philosophy, religion (and demonic humans, lol)

ps visit http://www.redsoulja.tk.

Many good books and authors have been mentioned here, to name a few that haven't. . Einstein's Bridge by John Cramer
I haven't read anything else by him, but that was an excellent book. It makes sense of the cancelation of the superconducting supercollider project at a point where it cost almost as much to cancel it as to finish it. Another good one is Conquistador by SM Stirling . Also, I enjoyed The Reality Dysfunction by Peter Hamilton.

Wow. It's too bad this thread hasn't been kept up. Lots of very interesting new material here for me to look up! I may as well list some of the stuff I've read. Many have been mentioned several times but some of the best stuff I've read isn't here... so, on we go.

At the end of 1937 a young sci-fi writer by the name of John W. Campbell took over the editor's chair of a then struggling magazine known as "Astounding Science Fiction." He is considered the father of the "Golden Age" of sci-fi writing, as he went on to develop some of the grandmasters of science fiction. Jack Williamson, Theodore Sturgeon, A.E. van Vogt, Robert Heinlein and Isaac Asimov (Who credits Campbell with inventing the Three Laws of Robotics) were among many of the greats who went through Campbell's editing and refining process. "Astounding" became and remained the leading sci-fi magazine for decades, eventually being renamed "Analog"

As Don A. Stewart (his wife's maiden name was Donna Stewart) he was most famous for writing "Who goes there?" which has been made into a movie twice as "The Thing From Another World."

His most famous work however was "Anthology: Three Novels" which is out of print and the cheapest ones I could find at Amazon were $53 and $55 in only "acceptable" condition. I've read it at least 5 times in my life, the last time being two years ago when I unexpectedly found a copy at a nearby library. Unfortunately I've never actually owned a copy.

If you want to explore the best of early science fiction, this would be a great place to start. It is a jaw-dropping effort which makes you wonder why the man gave up writing to become an editor, though it can be argued that as an editor he had more influence on sci-fi than as a writer.

Also from the Golden Age:

"The Weapons Shops of Isher" by A. E. Van Vogt
"Nightfall" is the best Novella by Isaac Asimov
"The Last Question" is my favorite short story by Isaac Asimov
"Stranger In a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein
"The Legion of Space" series by Jack Williamson
"Of Men and Monsters" by William Tenn
"Childhood's End" by Arthur C Clarke

I hate time travel stories as a rule, but then I read "The Time Ships" by Stephen Baxter. Great story.

Recently I came across the "Night's Dawn Trilogy" by Peter Hamilton. Here in the States it came out as a six part series but I have the original British three-parter, with each book spanning 1000 plus pages. It is an awesome read in every sense of the word. If you have not heard of this writer or this series, do yourself a favor and at least check out the reviews at Amazon or even the jacket blurbs. Give it a shot, you won't be disappointed.

Other favorites:
"Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card. Didn't like the sequels though.
"Homecoming" series by Orson Scott Card
"Riverworld" and the first two sequels by Philip Jose Farmer.

I cannot allow this post to end without mentioning one of the out and out best writers of fantasy and science fiction: Harlan Ellison. This man has terrified me, enlightened me and made me both laugh and cry with his writing. I cannot list his huge output here but I can begin with "I Have No Mouth and I must Scream" as a beginning to his mammoth bibliography. It's a short story that will haunt you forever. Also, if you can get it, he wrote the only screenplay for "I Robot" that was authorized by Isaac Asimov. That screenplay is the reason why I refused to watch the Will Smith movie when it came out. (And still haven't.)

Finally, the following is probably the greatest sci-fi novel I have ever read. I've lost track of the number of times I've read it in my life (I'm old) but everytime I read it it hits me as hard as the first time:

"The Stars My Destination" by the great Alfred Bester, the father of "cyberpunk," who unfortunately wrote only two novels. The first line reads, "He was one hundred and seventy days dying and not yet dead..."

Go read the rest!

Wow. It's too bad this thread hasn't been kept up. Lots of very interesting new material here for me to look up! I may as well list some of the stuff I've read. Many have been mentioned several times but some of the best stuff I've read isn't here... so, on we go.

At the end of 1937 a young sci-fi writer by the name of John W. Campbell took over the editor's chair of a then struggling magazine known as "Astounding Science Fiction." He is considered the father of the "Golden Age" of sci-fi writing, as he went on to develop some of the grandmasters of science fiction. Jack Williamson, Theodore Sturgeon, A.E. van Vogt, Robert Heinlein and Isaac Asimov (Who credits Campbell with inventing the Three Laws of Robotics) were among many of the greats who went through Campbell's editing and refining process. "Astounding" became and remained the leading sci-fi magazine for decades, eventually being renamed "Analog"

As Don A. Stewart (his wife's maiden name was Donna Stewart) he was most famous for writing "Who goes there?" which has been made into a movie twice as "The Thing From Another World."

His most famous work however was "Anthology: Three Novels" which is out of print and the cheapest ones I could find at Amazon were $53 and $55 in only "acceptable" condition. I've read it at least 5 times in my life, the last time being two years ago when I unexpectedly found a copy at a nearby library. Unfortunately I've never actually owned a copy.

If you want to explore the best of early science fiction, this would be a great place to start. It is a jaw-dropping effort which makes you wonder why the man gave up writing to become an editor, though it can be argued that as an editor he had more influence on sci-fi than as a writer.

Hmmm ... never heard of. Whats it about?

Also from the Golden Age:

"The Weapons Shops of Isher" by A. E. Van Vogt Very good story.
"Nightfall" is the best Novella by Isaac Asimov Pretty good.
"The Last Question" is my favorite short story by Isaac Asimov
"Stranger In a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein Excellent, it's a scandelous fun ride.
"The Legion of Space" series by Jack Williamson
"Of Men and Monsters" by William Tenn
"Childhood's End" by Arthur C Clarke Pretty good.

I hate time travel stories as a rule, but then I read "The Time Ships" by Stephen Baxter. Great story.

Recently I came across the "Night's Dawn Trilogy" by Peter Hamilton. Here in the States it came out as a six part series but I have the original British three-parter, with each book spanning 1000 plus pages. It is an awesome read in every sense of the word. If you have not heard of this writer or this series, do yourself a favor and at least check out the reviews at Amazon or even the jacket blurbs. Give it a shot, you won't be disappointed.

Other favorites:
"Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card. Didn't like the sequels though. Excellent! (your right abou the sequels.
"Homecoming" series by Orson Scott Card Interesting
"Riverworld" and the first two sequels by Philip Jose Farmer. Well written for the most part but it gets tedious,

I cannot allow this post to end without mentioning one of the out and out best writers of fantasy and science fiction: Harlan Ellison. This man has terrified me, enlightened me and made me both laugh and cry with his writing. I cannot list his huge output here but I can begin with "I Have No Mouth and I must Scream" as a beginning to his mammoth bibliography. It's a short story that will haunt you forever. Also, if you can get it, he wrote the only screenplay for "I Robot" that was authorized by Isaac Asimov. That screenplay is the reason why I refused to watch the Will Smith movie when it came out. (And still haven't.) If you didn't read the books it would probably be an OK movie.

Finally, the following is probably the greatest sci-fi novel I have ever read. I've lost track of the number of times I've read it in my life (I'm old) but everytime I read it it hits me as hard as the first time:

"The Stars My Destination" by the great Alfred Bester, the father of "cyberpunk," who unfortunately wrote only two novels. The first line reads, "He was one hundred and seventy days dying and not yet dead..."

Go read the rest!

Oh, and earlier, did I mention "Lightning" by Dean Koontz? It's pure sci-fi surprisingly and pretty good at that.

When I was around age 12-15 I liked-

Piers Anthony's first three books of the "Adept" series are very very good.
I was always disappointed with his Xanth stuff and the Inmortality book are boring and cold.

Terry Brooks "Elfstones" was a favorite, later I read the "Sword" and it was ok but gagged on the stupidity of the latter books.

Mary Stewarts- King Authur series (the Crystal Cave, the Hollow Hills, the Last Enchantment, and the Wicked Day) are classic's. I love 'em and still re-read the series every once while.

Read the fantasy books by Robin Hobb. You must read them. I've been getting a high off them like I havnt had for several years. If you dont, your missing out on good writing.

If you want to explore the best of early science fiction, this would be a great place to start. It is a jaw-dropping effort which makes you wonder why the man gave up writing to become an editor, though it can be argued that as an editor he had more influence on sci-fi than as a writer.

Hmmm ... never heard of. Whats it about?

As the title suggests, it's an anthology of three novels which are themselves collections of stories Campbell wrote in the early 1930's. Rather than writing a lenghty review, let me send you to a web site with much information on the matter:

http://www.troynovant.com/Grube/Campbell/Black-Star-Passes.html

I have to only because no one else that I have seen has...Stephen King and the Dark Tower series...loved it! I am not sure if it is Fantasy or SciFi or some hybrid of the two. Thank you everyone for all of the suggestions...

- KitNyx

I read science fiction almost exclusively. My favorite author is by far Isaac Asimov. I own about 10% of his books, and I've read every science fiction novel he's written and published. (Still working on getting every short story.. then onto the grand task of all his other stuff.)

Other authors whom I respect: David Eddings, Roger Zelazny, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Frank Herbert, Ursula K Le Guin, Douglas Adams, Ayn Rand (I'm willing to argue if you don't think <i>Atlas Shrugged</i> isn't Science Fiction).. And there's many others. I take great pride in what I read, and it gives me great pain to see the number of readers every year diminish. I don't respect people who don't read.

The Royal Library of Alexandria was once the largest in the world. It is usually assumed to have been founded at the beginning of the 3rd century BC during the reign of Ptolemy II of Egypt after his father had set up the temple of the Muses, the Musaeum (whence we get "Museum"). The initial organization is attributed to Demetrius Phalereus, and is estimated to have stored at its peak 400,000 to 700,000 parchment scrolls. The library's destruction remains a mystery.

Those who do not read, repeat the same mistake over and over...

I have to only because no one else that I have seen has...Stephen King and the Dark Tower series...loved it! I am not sure if it is Fantasy or SciFi or some hybrid of the two. Thank you everyone for all of the suggestions...

- KitNyx

I don't know ... it most closely resembles a bad acid trip in my opinion. ;)

The Royal Library of Alexandria was once the largest in the world. It is usually assumed to have been founded at the beginning of the 3rd century BC during the reign of Ptolemy II of EgyptI thought it was founded by Alexander at the same time as the rest of the city?

Anyway, Scifi - C.J Cherryh, especially Cyteen, which I've just finished. It's tough to read, but an excellent book.

any body like stephen baxter books?!

Has anyone read Dan Simmons's Iluim and Olympos?

any body like stephen baxter books?!

"Titan" is on my bookshelf and is the next in my list once I'm through with the Hitchhiker "trilogy"

I'm reading a book called Ilium by Dan Simmons, the same guy who wrote Hyperion, Fall of Hyperion, etc. It's a bizarre book that has two different settings. The first is on the top of Olympus Mons on Mars very, very far in the future. A human is watching a fight between some Greek gods and goddesses. Afterwards Aphrodite comes up to the man and gives him an order to spy and eventually assassinate Athena. The other setting is on Europa at the same time period. These five robots are going to Mars to observe some life forms. I feel that these characters are going to somehow meet, but I just started. It's a 700+ page book with small print but I'm up to it

Heinlein is a good one. I like The Puppet Master most though. Stranger in a Strange Land was ok.

I recently finished Well's War of The Worlds, I'm very disappointed with the movies. The first one was closest to the original story, but the aliens looked very wrong. This new one got the Martians right, but only kinda stuck to the story. Meh, Hollywood kills everything.

I have read a trilogy by Clare Dunkle about goblins, elves and dwarfs. Really good. Her description of the nature of each species is a reflection similar to people of different cultures and their viewpoints.

The other is David Webber's Honor Harrington books. There really isn't much thinking in them, but they are nice for a bit of light stuff. And Treecats are one of the coolest species I have heard of.
I've read the entire series. Very entertaining. I loved the one where she escaped from "hell". Also good by Weber is the Mutineer's Moon series and the March to the Sea series.

Anyone read Peter Hamilton? Pandora's Star and the sequel were excellent. Also his previous series the Nights Dawn Trilogy was also quite good.

Ilium is good, with an interesting if rather unbelievable premise, but not as good as Hyperion/Endymion. I'll probably get Olympos after I finish Ash by Mary Gentle - it's excellently researched, and while appearing initially fantasy, has some interesting SciFi twists.

As for Peter Hamilton, I couldn't agree more - the Night's Dawn trilogy was pretty much space opera, but extremely enjoyable to read, but Pandora's Star and Judas Unchained kept a similar style but with more depth.

Heinlins Stranger in a Strange Land is a classic that everyone should read, it's so close to todays ways it's uncanny

Anyone read Cecelia Dart Thornton's The Bitterbynde Trilogy? It's outstanding.
I like Terry Brooks also, as well as JK Rowling, Trudi Canavan, Elizabeth Haydon and Garth Nix (yes, kids books I know)

I detest the Eddings, can't get in those books at all!

I love Starship Troopers! I think I might be a nerd even by nerd standards. I made this funny video though so at least I'm a funny nerd.

If you want to see it go to YouTube and look for The Unicorn Girl profile and a short called Video Match - that's me! You can see what I look like.

Ayn Rand (I'm willing to argue if you don't think <i>Atlas Shrugged</i> isn't Science Fiction)...

Here here! One of my favorite novels, ever... it is quite obviously a scifi novel.

I'd be willing to argue for the fact that Dune (Frank Herbert) was the greatest scifi novel of all time.

~String

enders game(Orson Scott Card), and hyperion(Dan Simmons) are in my top 5 listing of the best scifi books i've ever read. Dune(Frank Herbert) is one of my all timers that i could read for 1million milleniums.

I'd love Brooks if he could write more than three characters; it's the same recycled pap again and again. The only two worth reading are the Elfstones and maybe the Sword and then possibly one of the modernesque ones. Once you're read one you're done, however. I should publish my own bloody books.

My favourites would have to be The Phoenix Legacy by M.K. Wren which consists of three books:

1) Sword of the Lamb
2) Shadow of the Swan
3) House of the Wolf


And of course the famous Enders series. But The Phoenix Legacy would have to be one of my favourite works of fiction. SciFi at its best.

Never tried those but I'll have a look.

I mainley read books from Stephen King and Dean R Koontz;
At the moment i'm reading "Lisey's story" by S king. WHen i've finish it i'm going to start on the tower series.
I read a bundle of short story's from Isaac Asimov too, I liked it.
I've read a book by Pierre Outilette "Deus ex machina" it's excellent. It's about a supercomputer messing with DNA.

It's really a shame fewer and fewer people are reading books.
I'm glad my daughters are sharing my passion for books.
I'm wife reads a lot of books to but more "true stories."

rocky horror picture show

I'm trying to get the New Crucible series of ST. Have read all of the New Frontier books.

I would recommend anyone one to that can read Japanese to read 'Juni Kokuki' fiction novel series. Another that comes to mind is 'Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu' novels. Both very good.

Stephen Baxter's Vacuum Diagram is superb and best book ever!

Can anyone suggest me other similar books please?

Heinlins Stranger in a Strange Land is a classic that everyone should read, it's so close to todays ways it's uncanny

I read it when I was 10 and hated it. Looking back, I think I was just too. young. Thanks for mentioning it. I'll have to read it again.

Has anyone read Charles Pelligrino's book Dust

guardians of the forest by graham macneil (mcneil?). is a good fantasy book. he also writes good warhammer 40k scifi books usualy on space marines. i think he is an excellent writter personaly.


but i know many people who dislike him, but i think his work is great and worth reading.


peace.

Has anyone read ST Exodus ?

My favorites, already mentioned elsewhere but if I can get anybody else to read them I'll make their day :

Orson Scott Card - "Ender's game" and "Ender's Shadow"

Stephen King - "The Sharpshooter" (Tower 1 book)

In all 3 of these books, it's the immersion that got me. It's like watching a movie of the book, and you wrote the screenversion... Great characters.

I just read a book called "Cauldron" by Jack McDevitt. Very interesting and fast reading. I picked up 4 other books he wrote from the library.

I read World War Z by Max Brooks was great ya!

...
Stephen King - "The Sharpshooter" (Tower 1 book)
...


???

Never heard of it.

If you're referring to the "Dark Tower" series, book one is entitled "The Gunslinger".

Seeing as there are other Halo fans on this forum, has anyone read their new book ? It totally screws up the timeline.

I saw on scifi.com that they're in the early early stages of making a "The Golden Compass" Movie. Should be pretty sweet...

the movie sucked

the movie sucked

I can't believe that piece of shit movie won the Oscar over Transformers. That has the most amazing special effects that we've seen yet. Definately ILM's best work.

Blindsight, released by the author to the interwebs.
http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm
Definitely worth reading if you have any interest in psychological science fiction.

I can't believe that piece of shit movie won the Oscar over Transformers. That has the most amazing special effects that we've seen yet. Definately ILM's best work.

Transformers is based on giant, talking GoBots.

No.

Bad.

Re-reading the Fritz Lieber books currently. Mastercraft.

Has anyone read any David Gemmel books? Its some kick-ass fantasy for sure.

I can't wait for Republic Commandos: Order 66. And Legacy of the Force: Invincible.

Isn't Invincible out already?

Yes it is, but not Order 66.

I think it's coming out in June, right?

Dune was by Frank, not Brian; Brian is his son and he wrote the seventh in the series. However, while the first is astonishing and the second is readable (but short) the rest are terrible.
But by all means, everyone, read the first.

Terry Goodkind/Terry Brooks: terrible. Stick to Tolkien.

Laurell K. Hamilton: only read her Anita Blake books. If this is another one, it's well worth a read.
Peter David: snigger.

terry brooks was pretty good

the Kushiel's series is a good one but its not for people uptight and prudish about sex. its has a lot of sex in it and not the lovey dovey kind no we're talking about whips and chains and shit. this more so in the first 3 books.

I think it's coming out in June, right?

Yes, it am waiting for it.

Vurt by Jeff Noon was pretty friggin fantastic.

Vurt by Jeff Noon was pretty friggin fantastic.

Yeah, it was awesome. He's also written other good books, such as nymphomation and automated alice, but of the 3, I think that vurt was my favourite. I think pollen is part of the vurt universe, and atleast one review says its better then vurt, but I haven't read that one yet.

Vurt by Jeff Noon was pretty friggin fantastic.

Yeah if you love crazy drug stories ><

One of my favourite reads lately has been the Dawn's Night Trilogy by Peter F. Hamilton (http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Dysfunction-Nights-Dawn/dp/0316021806/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229690790&sr=1-1). Pretty fair lump of paper (about 1200 pages each), which has been described as a space opera. Despite that, the books kept me hanging on throughout.
I really liked the imagined technology, which I thought was handled believably; the characters were a bit stereotypic but varied, and included sentient habitats; and the style veered towards a Terry Pratchet sex romp at times, with some demonic pocession thrown in for good measure. Very enjoyable, made better by picking it up randomly at a secondhand book shop!:D

If you Google

+torrent +"science fiction and fantasy" +13130

You can find a lot of out of print books in PDF format.

How long will it take you to read 4 GIGABYTES?

psik

The ideal reading medium for PDFs would be a Netbook laptop. Light weight enough to relax on a lazyboy or on the bed....

http://us.acer.com/public/wr-resource/3895358760/upload/E0Entity3/1/aspOneGAMMAcolore.jpg

I convert the PDFs to TXT files and use this to read them.

http://www.lordpercy.com/PMA400-3.JPG
http://www.lordpercy.com/archos_pma400_review.htm

I have installed the program JustReader for the text files. The only problem is that it doesn't have automatic scroll. It is also an MP3 player so I use it for audio books.

What I find incredible these days is little kids going to school with these HUGE back packs. It is like half of the kid could fit in these things. Like, what do they need with so much stuff? And then I have got 200 megabytes of e-books in my pocket, plus a couple of gig of audio books and seven gigabytes of music and 5 gig of Stargate Atlantis videos. What is wrong with these kids?

OK, its not the kids. Its the schools and their parents.

psik

I liked Hyperion and The Fall of Hyperion by Dan Simmons, they were really original and quirky.
I also liked Cordwainer Smith I think everyone who really into science fiction should read he’s short story “Scanners Live In Vain” it’s amazing and he wrote it in 1945!

how about Neal Stephenson's

ANATHEM

any body read this or any of his books ?

how about Neal Stephenson's

ANATHEM

any body read this or any of his books ?

i am working on that very book

how about Neal Stephenson's
ANATHEM
any body read this or any of his books ?
Finished Anathem last week.
Also read Snow Crash, Diamond Age, Cryptonomicon and his System of the World Trilogy. And In The Beginning Was The Command Line.

Finished Anathem last week.
Also read Snow Crash, Diamond Age, Cryptonomicon and his System of the World Trilogy. And In The Beginning Was The Command Line.

and your thoughts on Anathem , I'm third of the way through

Neal's mathematics are interesting

and your thoughts on Anathem , I'm third of the way through
It's atypical Stephenson novel: information dense with a good story.


Neal's mathematics are interesting
It's not his mathematics. He's just using and passing on existing concepts.

“ Neal's mathematics are interesting ”


It's not his mathematics. He's just using and passing on existing concepts.

its what I thought , some how

if thats true , then it puzzles me why nobody seems to be aware of these mathematical concepts

hence cesspool

its what I thought , some how
if thats true , then it puzzles me why nobody seems to be aware of these mathematical concepts
hence cesspol
There's a difference between "not being aware" and "there being something to reply to".
You could have Googled for at least some background and then asked pertinent questions.
You didn't even bother acknowledging Capt. Bork's post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_%28physics%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_action

IIRC Feynman was something of a wizard with action principles, using that method in preference to others at times.

There's a difference between "not being aware" and "there being something to reply to".
You could have Googled for at least some background and then asked pertinent questions.
You didn't even bother acknowledging Capt. Bork's post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_%28physics%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_action

IIRC Feynman was something of a wizard with action principles, using that method in preference to others at times.

I didn't ackowledge anybody's response , I was too busy explaining what Neal was trying to get at

it took awhile

There's a difference between "not being aware" and "there being something to reply to".
You could have Googled for at least some background and then asked pertinent questions.
You didn't even bother acknowledging Capt. Bork's post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_%28physics%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_action


IIRC Feynman was something of a wizard with action principles, using that method in preference to others at times.

yet as brilliant as Feynman was and he was , is he now out dated in his thinking ?

look again in Neal's book

how to get 8 pieces from 4

if you have a square 2 by 2

by adding an extra row , vertically and horizontally you get 9 , 3 by 3

the only way to get 8 is by dividing the square , ( 2 by 2 ) diagionally

yet as brilliant as Feynman was and he was , is he now out dated in his thinking ?
Er, no.
Action principles is another way of looking at things.
Not a different method of thinking.


look again in Neal's book
how to get 8 pieces from 4
if you have a square 2 by 2
by adding an extra row , vertically and horizontally you get 9 , 3 by 3
the only way to get 8 is by dividing the square , ( 2 by 2 ) diagionally
And?
Nothing to to do with action principles.
It's about cutting squares only.

Hey, just found this thread...
Lincoln Childs and Douglas Preston: "Relic" and "Thunderhead", then just Childs's "Terminal Freeze". Also, Dean Koontz's "Watchers" and "Phantoms" are great reads. Of course Asimove, Bradbury, Stephenson, Wells, and many others...

Ender's Game series is pretty decent. We had to read it for novel study and this is one of the few novel study books I enjoyed.

The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. It started semi-slowly but ended up being one of my favorite fantasy reads ever. It was typical fantasy but still great.

Also, the A Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin is obviously wonderful.

a science Fiction writer who probably hasnt quite managed to cross the atlantic yet is a scottish guy called Ken MacLeod.
For those who know their SF but havent heard of him yet, he's one of Iain M Banks' best friends - in fact it was IMB who persuaded him to become a writer because he liked his ideas so much.

High praise indeed.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url?_encoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books-uk&field-author=Ken%20MacLeod

I can definitely recommend the Fall Revolution series, The Execution Channel, and The Night Sessions - I havent read any of the Engines of Light, and Newton's Wake is a bit shit

I also just finished Halting State by Charles Stross and it is by a very long way the best bit of near future speculative fiction I've read in a very long time.


It was called in as a robbery at Hayek Associates, an online game company. So you can imagine Sergeant Sue Smith's mood as she watches the video footage of the heist being carried out by a band of orcs and a dragon, and realises that the robbery from an online game company is actually a robbery from an online game. Just wonderful. Like she has nothing better to do. But online entertainment is big business, and when the bodies of real people start to show up, it's clear that this is anything but a game. For Sue, computer coding expert Jack Reed, and forensic accountant Elaine Barnaby, the walls between the actual and the virtual are about to come crashing down. There is something very dangerous and very real going on at Hayek Associates, and those involved are playing for keeps. No cheats, no back doors, no extra lives - make a wrong call on this one and it's game over.

Nerdgasm or what? lol!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Halting-State-Charles-Stross/dp/1841496650/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262128418&sr=1-1

a science Fiction writer who probably hasnt quite managed to cross the atlantic yet is a scottish guy called Ken MacLeod.


Nice recommendation.
I actually found him via Charles Stross' blog...



For those who know their SF but havent heard of him yet, he's one of Iain M Banks' best friends - in fact it was IMB who persuaded him to become a writer because he liked his ideas so much.


Banks is a genius.





I also just finished Halting State by Charles Stross and it is by a very long way the best bit of near future speculative fiction I've read in a very long time.



If you like that, you've barely scratched the surface of Stross.
Halting State is easily one of his 'softest' SF books.

Start with Iron Sunrise. Besides Banks, Stross is my favourite contemporary SF writer.

Nice recommendation.
I actually found him via Charles Stross' blog...[quote]

Yeah - I think him and Stross are good buddies too - a little scottish cabal of great SF writers :D

have you read any Macleod yet?

The Fall Revolution series is very good - and can be read in more or less any order if you want - or pretty much as standalones which is a very nice touch and shows how nicely written they are - I started with the second book The Stone Canal, which is probably the best in the series, and in many ways does a better job or introducing the important recurring characters and themes in the series, so its interchangeable with the first book in some respects.


[QUOTE]
If you like that, you've barely scratched the surface of Stross.
Halting State is easily one of his 'softest' SF books.

Start with Iron Sunrise. Besides Banks, Stross is my favourite contemporary SF writer.

thanks - I'll give it a look - but I'm not really a huge fan of Hard Sci Fi just for the sake of it - I'm interested in ideas.
Halting state came from Stross reading about a divorce case where the two parties divided up their virtual possessions gained from online gaming together ( I think that was how they originally met) as part of the settlement.
He just made a very neat extrapolation of the idea that "virtual" assets are fast becoming interchangeable with their real-world contemporaries and ran like hell with it.

McLeod's recent books The Execution Channel and The Night Sessions do similar things albeit with different things that are going on right now - namely, the war on terror, the emergent power of blogging, and the culture wars

Yeah - I think him and Stross are good buddies too - a little scottish cabal of great SF writers :D


Seems to be.



have you read any Macleod yet?

Not yet, though planning on it.
I'm currently finishing of the Stross collection "Toast", as well as Banks' "Matter".



The Fall Revolution series is very good - and can be read in more or less any order if you want - or pretty much as standalones which is a very nice touch and shows how nicely written they are - I started with the second book The Stone Canal, which is probably the best in the series, and in many ways does a better job or introducing the important recurring characters and themes in the series, so its interchangeable with the first book in some respects.

Nice.
ta




thanks - I'll give it a look - but I'm not really a huge fan of Hard Sci Fi just for the sake of it - I'm interested in ideas.


I'm definitely a fan of 'idea' writing myself, though, happily, Stross does tend to go towards the 'hard' SF as opposed to fluffy space opera.
Nonetheless, he's a heavy 'idea' guy... so it's always a good read. He doesn't get bogged down in the 'hard' details [like Reynolds... IMO], so the concepts flow nicely.

...

Vacuum Diagrams is a novel about the human race as a whole. It looks at humanities future, right up until the last star in the universe has long burned out (you will see why if you read the book ;) ). Not only does it deal with many interesting technologies




If you like this book, you will more than likely enjoy Terraforming Earth by Jack Williamson. It is a little disturbing, and has more to do with the human condition than terraforming.....:D

Also, the A Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin is obviously wonderful.

I agree.
Ever since Donaldson's Covenant Chronicles series, given how brilliant it was, I had pretty much given up on fantasy.
I was happily surprised at how good Martin's stories are.
Sadly, we've been waiting for the next book, A Dance with Dragons for 5 years now. I know it's difficult work but come on....

No one has brought up the Horus Heresy series, shame on you bad people!

No one has brought up the Horus Heresy series, shame on you bad people!

??

Never heard of it..

Ever since Donaldson's Covenant Chronicles series, given how brilliant it was, I had pretty much given up on fantasy.
I'm still waiting for the final volume of that. Not due out in hardback (and I generally buy paperbacks - less shelf space taken up, not to mention cover price) until October this year.
Edit: oh hell! It's apparently the last two volumes - The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is a quadrilogy... October 2010 and sometime in 2013. I hope I live long enough. :D


No one has brought up the Horus Heresy series, shame on you bad people!
Aaargh!!
Not Evil Empire Warty Thou potboilers... :eek:

Well, it's a good read.

I'm still waiting for the final volume of that. Not due out in hardback (and I generally buy paperbacks - less shelf space taken up, not to mention cover price) until October this year.
Edit: oh hell! It's apparently the last two volumes - The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is a quadrilogy... October 2010 and sometime in 2013. I hope I live long enough. :D




Yeah, it's a shame how slow he's been going as of late.
I was tentative at best, when I heard of the Last Chronicles, and his style has changed [for the worse, IMO], but I found that if I stuck with it, it was good.

Of course, I'd be quite happy with his now slow writing if I found out he was writing more Gap Series books....

That stuff was primo SF.

Don't know if anyone's mentioned them yet, but Dr. David Brin's Uplift Saga is a great series to pick up if you get the chance. Lots of fun ideas, and Dr. Brin's a great author (who also happens to be a real scientist, with a BS in astronomy, a MS in astrophysics, and a PhD. in philosophy).

Starship Troopers by Robert A Heinlein.

Starship Troopers by Robert A Heinlein.

What an unorthodox choice :rolleyes:

What an unorthodox choice :rolleyes:

It is a great book and it is highly influential, what more can I say. :D

Tom Clancy is my favorite author however, too bad he doesn't write Sci Fi.

Tom Clancy is my favorite author however, too bad he doesn't write Sci Fi.

The Horus Heresy novel Mechanicum has been stated to be like a Tom Clancy novel, in space, but I've never read it.

I haven't read much of any Science Fiction. Most of what I read is Fantasy.

I have never read Dune, but I have wanted to. What are some good Science Fiction books to start out with?

Ian Watson - A freakishly inventive and often overlooked sci-fi author. I found out about him through a story that Kubrick had bought everything Watson had written. Kubrick later hired him to collaborate on (the eventual Speilberg film) A.I.

Another vote for Arthur C. Clarke - you can't go wrong here!

Hello there :)

My current favs are:

Peter F. Hamilton, John Scalzi and Terry Pratchett.

And now onto reading the entire thread, for new inspiration :wave:

The Horus heresy, at least most of it. Snow crash and the Diamond age by neil stephenson. The Hyperion series by Dan Simmons. Starship troopers by Heinline. Enders game and the books to come after by Orson Scott Card.