Both Muslim AND Christian?

SkinWalker

06-19-07, 10:08 AM

I still can't possibly conceive of the idea how anyone could be both.
Most of our beliefs are completely opposite of each other's.

My God is NOT the god of Islam.

And you can delude yourself into thinking it is. It's not. My God is NOT the god of Muhammed. You just don't get it.:rolleyes:

Allah is the name of the only God in Islam.

To a Muslim, the God of the Bible who is described as triune is offensive and pagan, reminding them of what Mohammed destroyed. Allah is not called Yahweh once in the Koran but neither is Yahweh called Allah in the Bible. So they can't be the same God. The God in the Bible is called the God of the Jews, an impossibility with Allah. Allah has no son. God does. His name is Jesus Christ.:worship:

Such ignorance almost makes me embarrassed to be of the same primate species. However, I can concede that a lifetime of indoctrination into a cult doctrine can have the effect of creating a bias so great as to remove the capacity for reason and critical thought.

The reason the "gods" have different names in the two books is primarily because the languages are different. The gods of Christianity have various names as well: Yahweh, Elohim, Jesus, Moses, Satan, etc. -with the primary god sharing the names Yahweh and Elohim. The latter two names are Jewish and used within the Torah by the "J" and "E" authors, respectively. The difference was probably due to geographic variance in antiquity (highlands versus lowlands; northern vs. southern; etc.)

The name "Allah" is Arabic rather than Jewish, but is a cognate to one of the Jewish names, Elohim. "Al" and "El" are both the. The word "al" and the Arabic word for god are joined al + ilah to form allah. The word "el" is joined to the Hebrew word for god: el + loah to form eloah. Both words are ultimately transformed from the feminine to the masculine (eloah becomes elohim) plural forms. The etymology of both words have origin in earlier polytheistic cultures.

The myths of both cults acknowledge the same origins of the same mythical gods and the same mythical characters such as Abraham, Adam, Eve, Noah, etc.

Clearly, both mythologies are referring to the same god.

one_raven

06-19-07, 10:12 AM

Such ignorance almost makes me embarrassed to be of the same primate species. However, I can concede that a lifetime of indoctrination into a cult doctrine can have the effect of creating a bias so great as to remove the capacity for reason and critical thought.

No such excuse.
She's a convert.

SkinWalker

06-19-07, 10:20 AM

I read where she said that, too, but that isn't believable. Most who claim this are already believers but when they go through the cult practice of renewal called "being saved" or "born again," evangelicals will often claim that they were previously doubters, unbelievers, or even atheists when they were no such thing. This is a self-delusion of piety that they feel they must rise to in order to be accepted into their new cult group.

Now, this would be considered off-topic to this point, but it really isn't since this is a symptom of the evangelical cult as is denial that the "god" of another cult isn't the same as the god of their own. Islamic evangelicals do much the same as there needs to be a delineation between the evangelical and those religious cults with whom they disagree. There are also delineations present between evangelical cults and the other cults within their religion (i.e. b/w evangelical baptists and catholics) where the evangelicals reject them as "true christians."

All very fascinating stuff. I'm thinking of writing a paper solely on evangelical cults and common characteristics across religions.

sandy

06-19-07, 10:27 AM

Such ignorance almost makes me embarrassed to be of the same primate species....

I thought mods and members were not allowed to personally attack other members.:confused:

Just because you don't believe in God doesn't give you any right to cr@p all over me and mine.:(

I don't personally attack you or your unbelief.:(

pjdude1219

06-19-07, 10:29 AM

I thought mods and members were not allowed to personally attack other members.:confused:

Just because you don't believe in God doesn't give you any right to cr@p all over me and mine.:(

I don't personally attack you or your unbelief.:(

yeah yeah you do get clue in fact get a whole box i heard they come in 20 packs at wallmart for three fifty

one_raven

06-19-07, 10:33 AM

I thought mods and members were not allowed to personally attack other members.:confused:

Just because you don't believe in God doesn't give you any right to cr@p all over me and mine.:(

I don't personally attack you or your unbelief.:(

That's was not a personal attack of you, it was directed at what you have to say - there is a HUGE difference.

Besides, it doesn't even apply to you - you don't believe you ARE a primate.

SkinWalker

06-19-07, 11:16 AM

I thought mods and members were not allowed to personally attack other members.:confused:

Just because you don't believe in God doesn't give you any right to cr@p all over me and mine.:(

I don't personally attack you or your unbelief.:(

I didn't "personally attack" you. I attacked your ignorance. Then I provided you with an education, to which you apparently have nothing to say or add.

And, actually, your willingness to publicly discuss your delusions and superstitions gives me every right to criticize them and even ridicule them.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 11:24 AM

To be a Muslim all you need is a belief in one God and an acceptance that Mohammed was his messenger. If you accept Mohammed as a prophet but are a Christian or a Jew, essentially that makes you a Muslim. The Injeel (gospels) and the Torah are considered holy by Muslims. Jesus is another prophet for us. But Islam recognises that Christians ascribe divinity to Jesus. However they are still People of the Book, i.e. followers of the same God.

So according to Islam, it is not impossible to be a Christian and a Muslim at the same time.

How does that then jive with not making "partners to God" in the shahada? Having trouble believing this would be accepted anywhere but in the US.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 11:30 AM

Can you please explain to us what separates the 'Christian' God from the Islamic God?

Christian one says "turn the other cheek".

Islamic one says "slay the unbelievers wherever you find them".

Anyway, it's fine that there's an acceptance of this minister by local muslims. In fact, it's encouraging. But let her try to tell them that Jesus is God. That's where the acceptance would break down. One could say she was a Christian in the way that an Arian or somesuch would be, but - not to say that these can't be right - it's not the general impression. Let her tell the President of al-Ahzar the same, and see what happens.

one_raven

06-19-07, 11:36 AM

Christian one says "turn the other cheek".

Islamic one says "slay the unbelievers wherever you find them".

Come on...
You know better than that.

Deuteronomy 13:12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

As I said, if you think Jesus' dad was the God of the Old Testament, it is the same God.

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 11:36 AM

How does that then jive with not making "partners to God" in the shahada? Having trouble believing this would be accepted anywhere but in the US.

It must be your world travel that gives you this impression I'm sure.

Otherwise you might have heard of dargas and people like Sai Baba and Kabir, among others.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 12:55 PM

Come on...
You know better than that.

Deuteronomy 13:12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

As I said, if you think Jesus' dad was the God of the Old Testament, it is the same God.

I think if I were any kind of Christian theist, I'd reject all that out of hand. Or in other words: fuck that noise. If you're into the whole Jesus-message, it's forgive the sinner, turn the other cheek, love your neighbour, not slaughter him. (And don't cite Luke 18; so tacky.) If I were a Christian, I'd just say that it wasn't from God and whatnot.

Sammiekins!

It must be your world travel that gives you this impression I'm sure.

Otherwise you might have heard of dargas and people like Sai Baba and Kabir, among others.

Maybe so! Been lots of places. Did they accept the divinity of Christ? Did they say "You know, that J.C.: he's definitely God." Gotta link? ;)

GeoffP

06-19-07, 12:56 PM

Let me clarify too on the above: if Jesus comes back and he's all into the peace and loving thing, then it tanks the OT where there's disagreement. Call it abrogation if you like. ;)

one_raven

06-19-07, 01:22 PM

I think if I were any kind of Christian theist, I'd reject all that out of hand. Or in other words: fuck that noise. If you're into the whole Jesus-message, it's forgive the sinner, turn the other cheek, love your neighbour, not slaughter him. (And don't cite Luke 18; so tacky.) If I were a Christian, I'd just say that it wasn't from God and whatnot.

Which is why I said:

if you think Jesus' dad was the God of the Old Testament, it is the same God.

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 01:27 PM

Apparently even all the Christians don't think Jesus is God. Does that mean they are not Christians?

Also do Christians reject the OT? Did Jesus?

Wisdom_Seeker

06-19-07, 01:31 PM

Apparently even all the Christians don't think Jesus is God. Does that mean they are not Christians?

Also do Christians reject the OT? Did Jesus?

No, Jesus didn´t reject the OT. He only improved it.
A truth has to be broken in order for a higher truth to emerge.

one_raven

06-19-07, 01:33 PM

Also do Christians reject the OT? Did Jesus?

That, in my opinion, is one of the biggest, most important, unanswered questions of Jesus' philosophy.

Here's one widely disputed clue...

NIV Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 01:35 PM

Which is why I said:

I dunno. Maybe he was. Doesn't mean everything in there is exactly as it happened. I think I could believe that generally it was the same God, but not that everything within is true.

Apparently even all the Christians don't think Jesus is God. Does that mean they are not Christians?

Also do Christians reject the OT? Did Jesus?

Not "the law" as I understand - but Deuterotomy ain't th' law. As for whether or not they're Christians: they are. But the implication is that all Christianity and Islam is close, and it isn't. The shahada cuts a pretty clear demarcation that way, notwithstanding that the trinity isn't really polytheism. How is it that this God fellow is capable of so much, including the creation of the universe, but can't be three representative facets? It's amusing that islam seems to feel that God is bound by nothing - the Platonian model? - yet must be bound only in this instance. Why is that?

one_raven

06-19-07, 01:41 PM

Not "the law" as I understand - but Deuterotomy ain't th' law.

Sure it is.
Deuteronomy (Devarim) is the fifth book of the Torah.

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 01:42 PM

Hmm can you show me where in the NT Jesus describes the trinity?

one_raven

06-19-07, 01:44 PM

Hmm can you show me where in the NT Jesus describes the trinity?

Nope.

No one can.

He doesn't.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 01:45 PM

Maybe representing the Christian-Islamic system as a polyvariable ordinal set with directionality would be most appropriate.

But she'd still get the ol' chop in Riyadh, is what I'm saying.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 01:45 PM

Sure it is.
Deuteronomy (Devarim) is the fifth book of the Torah.

I always understood the Law as being Moses' Law - the Commandments. Not so?

GeoffP

06-19-07, 01:48 PM

Nope.

No one can.

He doesn't.

I'd go with more a biadic model for that. Father, son. Seems right from Romans and Corinthians and Matthew etc. Spirit? Dunno.

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 01:49 PM

Nope.

No one can.

He doesn't.

What exactly is the origin of Jesus' divinity in Christianity? How did the trinity concept come about?

Wisdom_Seeker

06-19-07, 01:49 PM

That, in my opinion, is one of the biggest, most important, unanswered questions of Jesus' philosophy.

Here's one widely disputed clue...

NIV Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I don�t think is unanswered man!
Althought is a little confusing.

Moses tought people to wear masks in order to be good. But inside, they were still ugly. Moses tought people they can wear masks in order to set the foundations of a higher truth. Jesus came here saying you could become beautiful from the inside, with no need for masks.

Pharisees were the ones following Moses law the most, but they were so full of it, their egos were the biggest ones. They judged everybody by those standards on which they judge themselves.

Jesus came converting water into wine, he was talking about inner-transformation, not just superficial.

Like when he said:
"You have heard that it was said, �Do not commit adultery.� But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5:27)."

He was talking about being good from the inside, not just pretend to be good. Because those who pretend to be good, and are not good in their hearts, are the ones fooling themselves.

Like the example I always put: Priests that say sex is evil, and at the same time look at woman with lusty eyes more than anyone.
The bramacharya is an ideal, that it happens when you are conscient, fully aware, but it just doesn�t happen if you just pretend to be one. That is fooling yourself.

one_raven

06-19-07, 01:50 PM

Wisdom_Seeker

06-19-07, 01:52 PM

What exactly is the origin of Jesus' divinity in Christianity? How did the trinity concept come about?

Council of Nicaea

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 01:52 PM

Council of Nicaea

I mean why did they decide on a trinity? What was the reason for that?

Wisdom_Seeker

06-19-07, 01:54 PM

I mean why did they decide on a trinity? What was the reason for that?

Unification of Religion and Government to manipulate people.

one_raven

06-19-07, 01:57 PM

I mean why did they decide on a trinity? What was the reason for that?

That's a very long, convoluted, story.

Blame the Catholics (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm)

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 01:57 PM

Unification of Religion and Government to manipulate people.

How would a trinity unify religion and government?

one_raven

06-19-07, 01:58 PM

Unification of Religion and Government to manipulate people.

How does creating the Trinity do that?
Formation of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, sure, but the Trinity specifically? I don't see how.

one_raven

06-19-07, 02:01 PM

Sam,

Are you looking for specific chapter and verse quotes that some people interpret to support the idea of the Trinity?

GeoffP

06-19-07, 02:01 PM

The Law IS Mosaic law, you got that right.
Mosaic Law, however, is considered the whole of the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament that are attributed to Moses).
The "main part" of The Law (where Kosher rules and such are set forth) is Leviticus, but Genesis through Deuteronomy is The Law.

Maybe but how can it be? OT - stoning. NT - JC he say "no stone no more". So how can it be the same? Stoning's in what? Deut or Leviticus?

GeoffP

06-19-07, 02:03 PM

How does creating the Trinity do that?
Formation of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, sure, but the Trinity specifically? I don't see how.

It's just something they decided on. It was inferred from the text. The belief was pretty widespread: it's hard to say if it's right or wrong, or right or wrong on that basis. That's why I think a more minimalist binitarian model is more appropriate. Ultimately, though, I don't think it matters all that much.

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 02:04 PM

That's a very long, convoluted, story.

Blame the Catholics (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm)

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:

There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P. G., X, 986).

Wow, I cannot even comprehend it.:eek:

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 02:05 PM

Sam,

Are you looking for specific chapter and verse quotes that some people interpret to support the idea of the Trinity?

No I've read the Bible, I'm trying to figure out how they arrived at the trinity.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 02:06 PM

Wow, I cannot even comprehend it.:eek:

Just means they're the same being.

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 02:09 PM

Just means they're the same being.

So when Jesus says, Father forgive them, he's talking to himself in the third person?:confused:

Oli

06-19-07, 02:12 PM

All the way through.
Even when he says he will intercede on someone's behalf with his father.

S.A.M.

06-19-07, 02:13 PM

All the way through.
Even when he says he will intercede on someone's behalf with his father.

Ah I see. :confused: :confused: :confused:

I was under the impression that Christians thought of the Father Son and Holy Spirit as 3 separate personas.

one_raven

06-19-07, 02:15 PM

Maybe but how can it be? OT - stoning. NT - JC he say "no stone no more". So how can it be the same? Stoning's in what? Deut or Leviticus?

Well, exactly.

That's where the questions regarding this...

NIV Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

...come in.

In Leviticus, it is said that you can beat your wife with a rod, provided that it is no thicker than your thumb.
It says you should be stoned for saying the name of Jehovah.
It says you need to be Kosher.
It says a lot of things that are outright rejected by "Christianity".
Some of these things Jesus specifically mentioned and overturned, such as...

NIV Matthew 15:10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Many of the other parts of The Law he did not directly address.

He spent a lot of time rebuking the Pharises and thier hypocrisy (even pointing out some hypocrisy within the law itself) but he claimed to not be overturning the law.

one_raven

06-19-07, 02:17 PM

Sam,

Trinitarians claim that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three different aspects or manifestations of the same being.

TruthSeeker

06-19-07, 02:23 PM

Rev. Ann Holmes Redding says she's Christian and Muslim.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

I don't buy it. That's like saying you're a liberal and a conservative.
You obviously know nothing or very little about your own religion and absolutely nothing about the other. :rolleyes:

Both religions talk about the very same thing. In fact, muslims share your entire scriptures. They only add a little bit more at the end. :rolleyes:

Let's quiz you. When and who wrote the King James Version? :rolleyes:

GeoffP

06-19-07, 02:27 PM

Well, exactly.

That's where the questions regarding this...

NIV Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

...come in.

In Leviticus, it is said that you can beat your wife with a rod, provided that it is no thicker than your thumb.
It says you should be stoned for saying the name of Jehovah.
It says you need to be Kosher.
It says a lot of things that are outright rejected by "Christianity".
Some of these things Jesus specifically mentioned and overturned, such as...

NIV Matthew 15:10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Many of the other parts of The Law he did not directly address.

He spent a lot of time rebuking the Pharises and thier hypocrisy (even pointing out some hypocrisy within the law itself) but he claimed to not be overturning the law.

Yeah I imagine that's where the whole rejection of Judaism thing hits pretty hard. I wouldn't be doing any pogroms over it, obviously, but I guess I'd take the Christian version. Most parsimonious to just generally apply "turn the other cheek"?

GeoffP

06-19-07, 02:31 PM

Ah I see. :confused: :confused: :confused:

I was under the impression that Christians thought of the Father Son and Holy Spirit as 3 separate personas.

I think you could argue that they do. And maybe they are. But is Jesus talking "to himself"? I dunno. I mean, it would be kind of hard for Matthew and so forth to record that "and then Jesus thought in his head "You know, these guys are idiots but I'm going to forgive them anyway" ". But then it would be less parsimonious for a God not to simply do what he wanted, eh? Chalk it up to making a sign? Why would there be any signs? Yet, it's said there are.

This is why if I go with anything I go with a semi-Gnosticism.

one_raven

06-19-07, 02:36 PM

But, why woudl he ask himself why God had forsaken him?

The more I look into it, the more I see that the Trinity has no foundation in the teachings of Jesus.
He never even called himself divine - in fact, he went out of his way to state that he was no different than anyone else, and we are all the children of God.
This is pretty much what the Muslims believe about Jesus, as far as I understand it - Sam, is that right?

GeoffP

06-19-07, 02:46 PM

But he also said that no one came to the Father except through him. "My Father" sayeth he. God came unto Mary, etc etc. If part of Jesus is divine, he can't be some other god. "Before Abraham was, I am" and so on.

one_raven

06-19-07, 02:59 PM

But he also said that no one came to the Father except through him.
I honestly interpret that as him saying that the only way to get to heaven is to follow me - to follow my teachings - to accept what I am saying as truth.

"My Father" sayeth he.
Huh? :bugeye:

God came unto Mary, etc etc. If part of Jesus is divine, he can't be some other god.
The whole "virgin birth" thing does seem to put a kink into it, I'll admit that, but there is the fact that the word that was translated to virgin was "young woman" in Hebrew, and the fact that "vigin" meaning "never had sex" is a puritanical extrapolation. "Virgin" meant simply "pure" and the idea was that a woman who had sex before marriage was impure.

In fact, I searched for a long time for a word that denoted "never having had sex" and couldn't find one (as opposed to the connotation of the word). Do you know of one?

"Before Abraham was, I am" and so on.
There is something I could never quite grasp about that one.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and I have never gotten around to researching the Hebrew text and trying to understand exactly what was meant by "I am".

johnahmed

06-19-07, 03:42 PM

One thing that bafles me about people who say Allah is different to the christian and jewish god because muslims do not believe in the trinity,jesus as son of god and so on, the thing is, Jews do not believe in the trinity nor accept jesus (atleast the muslims accept jesus as a prophet) yet they supposedly believe in the same god ? is'nt there a contradiction here ?

The other point is,even arab christians in palestine/isreal refer to god as Allah so for example in places like bethlehem and even nazerath the word used for god is ALLAH even by christians so how dare these so called christians from the west tell us Allah is a different god !!

VitalOne

06-19-07, 04:08 PM

one_raven

06-19-07, 04:09 PM

I have to agree with sandy,

Allah is not the same as the NT God Jesus called the "Father"....it's pretty obvious...rather Allah is the same as the Deutronomic God of the OT...the God of Moses...Jesus came to fulfill the and bring back the law...the law which is the truth...

Then you are not agreeing with her.

She claims the God of the OT is not the same as Allah.

Oli

06-19-07, 04:10 PM

I have to agree with sandy,

Allah is not the same as the NT God Jesus called the "Father"....it's pretty obvious...rather Allah is the same as the Deutronomic God of the OT...the God of Moses...Jesus came to fulfill the and bring back the law...the law which is the truth...

Umm, so how many gods are there?
The god of the NT, the OT and Allah, or just NT and OT?
Where do (and how do) the NT and OT gods differ?
One of them lied?

VitalOne

06-19-07, 04:17 PM

Then you are not agreeing with her.

She claims the God of the OT is not the same as Allah.
You're right...I'm only agreeing with her to a certain extent...

The OT God is definitely Allah...the same evil God of Yave...the vengeful, jealous, war-like one....

Umm, so how many gods are there?
The god of the NT, the OT and Allah, or just NT and OT?
Where do (and how do) the NT and OT gods differ?
One of them lied?
There's only one God...

Allah and OT God are not really God....it is God who is within you, who is formless, etc...that is who Allah and OT God is...as Moses says "No man has seen God, nor can see"...the Divine Qu'ran also describes Allah as being formless and causeless, etc...

The Father Jesus spoke of is the one in heaven...a physical being.....he is the king of kings, the lord of lords, the best of all Buddhas (or supremely enlightened ones), the immeasurable light, etc...

John99

06-19-07, 04:39 PM

NOTE: I may have posted this in the wrong thread, i just picked one, i thought it was common knowledge that it is the same God.

MODS: dont delete this post.

This is EVERYTHING John99 knows. Culled from centuries of knowledge. Use this information wisely/

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=68172&page=4

You are either His child or not. You choose to worship Him or satan. There is no in between. You're either a child of God or a child of the devil. God's children go to be with Him in Heaven. Satan's children go to be with him in hell.

God is a He. He always was. He always will be.

-------------------------------

love\hate, good\bad, sickness\health, success\failure, male\female

seems more in tune with the scheme of things, more logical. what about this is so hard to understand? yet they worship imposters and their theories so readily.

I am wary of anything that relies so heavily on perception, and why should Jesus' earthly form be that important? There is a great chance you are right though/

Have you seen these song lyrics?

She broke down and let me in
Made me see where I've been

(finally when all hope seemed lost)

Been down one time
Been down two times
I'm never going back again

You don't know what it means to win

Come down and see me again

(for some this is the only way)

Superluminal:

No. There is no god. Didn't anyone tell you?

No santa or easter bunny either.

its not a personal attack to point out the flaws in someone reasoning or logic quit being so toucky

John:

Yes it is possible to insult someone for that reason, how much more proof do you need?

There is no reason anyone should be ridiculed for their beliefs. PERIOD>>>>

Here is my perspective and experience, tell me where i am wrong and feel free to add corrections.....

1. Shroud of Turin-

I could accept it being fake but if you look at it subjectively, you may be seeing the closest artifact which is a miracle that in our technologically advanced:rolleyes: society cannot even be shown as to how it was produced, let alone replicated.

As far as i know it has never been reproduced as other masterpieces have been and sold as forgeries too. Hard to believe some midievil artist did this given the tools available at the time and do you believe if it could have been done that long ago it would be able to be done today? seems easy to understand unless all you want to do is not believe it then go ahead. I know aLL the arguments made against organised religion but push aside your bias and look at the facts.

2. Manifestation(s)

What i saw with my own two eyes and what i felt change, i never read OT, NT, this scroll that scroll, i believed in myself at one time, and that is all but what i saw that morning will stay with me forever....i know what i saw, there was nothing left to the imagination at all 'It' saved my life and healed the damage that was done. I did stay behind for a reason, it gave me the option to leave that is what would have happened. This is not where you want to be, it is much better to wait, you will see, i know this option is not made availible in all circumstances, i think because i did not go and try to kill myself or was at the hand of another (fate???) but i made a mistake....thats all. Forgiveness...what else is there to say?

That is where it ended, this was no luck, and i know i am not special or anything- just gave me another chance - told me what i had to do to not die right there on that floor (i did not want to die, i did put myself there though..in a way) i know that was a big part of it....so now. A hallucination, they will say, never had one before or after though.

Yes it communicated to me, told me it's over and i will live if i wanted to and it told me with no doubt who it was or who's will it was acting on...that was very clear. The only thing i can say is i am here, and so many of my friends are not:shrug: It did more but what it did i just dont know...how do you take someone dying and reverse everything that brought it on? like being in the palm of someones hand, like a new born baby lying on its mothers chest- women i have no doubt are closer to God, this i am sure- life has the potential to be created inside them...they sustain life, literally and figuratively, things happen for a reason...we should just accept this and know that we have limitations, thats just the way it is.

I really like the lyrics to this song, you know inspiration comes from many places and sometime we go on and never even know where it came from, the hand of fate is on me now.

She broke down and let me in
Made me see where I've been

Been down one time
Been down two times
I'm never going back again

You don't know what it means to win

Come down and see me again

I know it sounds crazy but it was as clear as this monitor in front of my face. thats all. well that happened ten years ago and it wont go away but it is not that big of a deal.

Tom2

06-19-07, 04:43 PM

I don't buy it. That's like saying you're a liberal and a conservative.

"The whole country's got a fucked up mentality. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are fucking idiots. Democrats are fucking idiots. Conservatives are idiots and liberals are idiots.

Anyone who makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a fucking fool. Everybody, nah, nah, nah, everybody is so busy wanting to be down with a gang! I'm a conservative! I'm a liberal! I'm a conservative! It's bullshit!

Be a fucking person. Listen. Let it swirl around your head. Then form your opinion.

No normal decent person is one thing. OK!?! I got some shit I'm conservative about, I got some shit I'm liberal about. Crime - I'm conservative. Prostitution - I'm liberal."

--Chris Rock

TruthSeeker

06-19-07, 05:21 PM

"The whole country's got a fucked up mentality. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are fucking idiots. Democrats are fucking idiots. Conservatives are idiots and liberals are idiots.

Anyone who makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a fucking fool. Everybody, nah, nah, nah, everybody is so busy wanting to be down with a gang! I'm a conservative! I'm a liberal! I'm a conservative! It's bullshit!

Be a fucking person. Listen. Let it swirl around your head. Then form your opinion.

No normal decent person is one thing. OK!?! I got some shit I'm conservative about, I got some shit I'm liberal about. Crime - I'm conservative. Prostitution - I'm liberal."

--Chris Rock
We live in the age of convenience. Politics is a commodity. You have to change that mentality if you want people to think for themselves.

DiamondHearts

06-19-07, 06:09 PM

the Divine Qu'ran also describes Allah as being formless and causeless, etc...

Not true. Muslims believe Allah swt has a form which is beyond perfection but we are not made aware of it until the day of Judgement. God revealed one piece of Himself the size of a fingernail to Moses (peace be to him) on the Sinai, and the mountain broke into pieces causing Moses to fall unconscious. God cannot resemble human beings as we have many imperfections. He is the creator, therefore He is perfect in every single way. Also, everything in the universe happens with His will.

VitalOne

06-19-07, 06:39 PM

Not true. Muslims believe Allah swt has a form which is beyond perfection but we are not made aware of it until the day of Judgement. God revealed one piece of Himself the size of a fingernail to Moses (peace be to him) on the Sinai, and the mountain broke into pieces causing Moses to fall unconscious. God cannot resemble human beings as we have many imperfections. He is the creator, therefore He is perfect in every single way. Also, everything in the universe happens with His will.

Are you sure about this? Have any quotes from the Qu'ran? The Qu'ran makes it clear that images are strictly forbidden...very similar to the OT God who also despised images....Moses is more like Mohummad...but Jesus he is like God himself, the truth, the way, etc...

GeoffP

06-19-07, 06:55 PM

I honestly interpret that as him saying that the only way to get to heaven is to follow me - to follow my teachings - to accept what I am saying as truth.

Why wouldn't he have said "follow", though?

Huh? :bugeye:

As in "My Father who art in Heaven". He didn't say that? I thought he did.

The whole "virgin birth" thing does seem to put a kink into it, I'll admit that, but there is the fact that the word that was translated to virgin was "young woman" in Hebrew, and the fact that "vigin" meaning "never had sex" is a puritanical extrapolation. "Virgin" meant simply "pure" and the idea was that a woman who had sex before marriage was impure.

I've seen that point raised up elsewhere, but they never cited any references. The other thing is that even if she wasn't a virgin, the point is that God "came unto her" or somesuch and knocked her up.

In fact, I searched for a long time for a word that denoted "never having had sex" and couldn't find one (as opposed to the connotation of the word). Do you know of one?

There's a word in Hebrew for it but I can't remember what it is.

There is something I could never quite grasp about that one.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and I have never gotten around to researching the Hebrew text and trying to understand exactly what was meant by "I am".

Well, it kinda fits with the revelation to Moses and all that. "Who are you?" "I AM." And so forth.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 06:58 PM

Then you are not agreeing with her.

She claims the God of the OT is not the same as Allah.

It's probably more a general irateness that islam is claiming it's the same faith or same being that has apparently gone back on its position about the turning the other cheek and not stoning, etc. Which, I have to admit, might piss me off too. It would be like people taking my political beliefs and trying to make them something they have nothing to do with...which, actually, people do.

GeoffP

06-19-07, 07:00 PM

Also, everything in the universe happens with His will.

So why can't he be God, Jesus and a holy Spirit? Isn't He God?

Michael

06-19-07, 07:15 PM

I find it rather amusing that Muslims do not find it so offensive to be called Christian, as they love and adore Jesus (peace be to him). Yet the many of the Christians think being called a Muslim is a horrible thing. Not all Christians however feel this way, but many conservatives definately do.

What might be the cause of such a drift of opinion, perhaps Muslims' knowledge of Christianity as compared to Christians' knowledge of Islam?That's kind of funny because I sometimes tell my Muslim friends that because the Qur'an is 70% the Torah the logical answer is Mohammad was a Jew and therefor Muslims are Jews and they are a Jew - you should see the look on their face! Then I tell them I'm just kidding. :)

Michael

06-19-07, 07:28 PM

I think the Trinity concept pre-dates Xianity

As for it not making an sense, so what? The more stupefying the better to keep the sheep concentrating on more important things - like grazing.

"Allah swt has a form which is beyond perfection but we are not made aware of it until the day of Judgment"

Making any sense yet?
:p
Michael

Michael

06-19-07, 07:31 PM

Also, everything in the universe happens with His will.Including the online rape of hundreds of children - some as young as 3 months. What a sick creature this god is.

Baaahhh Baahhhh no no no Michael dat's different. bla blabby bla bla ...

one_raven

06-20-07, 07:52 AM

As in "My Father who art in Heaven". He didn't say that? I thought he did.

The Lord's prayer starts, "Our father, who art in Heaven".
And he refers to everyone as his brothers and sisters.

GeoffP

06-20-07, 12:29 PM

I thought he talked about "My Father" in the Bible. I'm almost sure of it.

one_raven

06-20-07, 12:35 PM

I thought he talked about "My Father" in the Bible. I'm almost sure of it.

He did.
He also talked about everyone being brothers and sisters, and he said that when you pray, you shoudl pray thus: "Our father, who art in heaven..."

I'm not saying that Jesus didn't claim to be the son of God, he just said YOU were too, and through practicing what he taught, you could be the same as him. He wasn't special by right, just by virtue in actions - very similar to what The Buddha taught.

GeoffP

06-20-07, 12:58 PM

Interesting. I take it you feel that he did those Eastern journeys etc, assuming that he was real? I can see your point about "sons of God", but I do think he also made the case that he was. Are you a Mormon then? I have a couple of cousins who are Seventh Day Adventists. Not the same team obviously, but near I suppose.

one_raven

06-20-07, 02:15 PM

Interesting.
I think so.

I take it you feel that he did those Eastern journeys etc, assuming that he was real?
Possibly, but I don't think it was necessary.
They say there was a statue in Alexandria of a monk from the far east who burned himself alive in protest of something (can't remember what) in Jesus' time.
The Silk Road WAS open at that time, and the exchange of goods implies the possibility of the exchange of ideas.
There are some real uncanny similarities in their teachings.
Wehther that's direct (or indirect) influence, a matter of simple common sense in their philosophies or something more "spiritual", I can't say - neither can anyone else, really.

I can see your point about "sons of God", but I do think he also made the case that he was.
That he was what?
Any MORE a son of God or any more special than anyone else?

Are you a Mormon then? I have a couple of cousins who are Seventh Day Adventists. Not the same team obviously, but near I suppose.
No.
I am nothing.
Once your belief becomes codified into a system, it no longer allows for individual thought, exploration and further development.

By the way, tehre are some quite significant differences between Mormons and 7th Day Adventists.
About all they have in common is their "clean" lifestyle.

GeoffP

06-20-07, 02:33 PM

That he was what?
Any MORE a son of God or any more special than anyone else?

No an actual, literal (as far as can be said) "son of God". I don't know if I believe in Jesus, but I think the evidence points to that.

No.
I am nothing.
Once your belief becomes codified into a system, it no longer allows for individual thought, exploration and further development.

*gong sounds*

By the way, tehre are some quite significant differences between Mormons and 7th Day Adventists.
About all they have in common is their "clean" lifestyle.

And their desire to rule the world. No. Ask them.

Anyway, I agree that dogma confuses the external, dynamic dialectic.

WildBlueYonder

06-20-07, 09:22 PM

As a person of the book, she is welcome to pray with Muslims even if she is a Christian, if she so wants. .
rrrriiiiight & I want to be Miss Universe & "I support World Peace"*

my dear S.A.M., I regret to inform you that Miss Ann Holmes Redding is no longer a person of the Book, she is now a muslim, that makes her a person of the book of islam
wishing & hoping don't make you Christian, no matter how hard you try, she left God, when her heart strayed toward islam, prayers, chants are OK as far as that goes, but for me to give up Christianity would be major world view change, as in no longer believing that the world/universe was created

lets turn this question around, could Miss Ann Holmes Redding be an "official" muslim, if she both believed the Christian Bible with its Triune God & be accepted as a true muslim? what would your local imam say? would he give an A-OK?
my guess is, she is on a journey that leads to full islamic belief, she will be ousted from her position in the church, & many may reject her as a teacher of New Testament Christianity, just on religious grounds, but she will be accepted in her role as a professor otherwise. I just won't be following her course of action any time soon

* its a joke, its a take on "Miss Congeniality" :p

S.A.M.

06-20-07, 10:14 PM

rrrriiiiight & I want to be Miss Universe & "I support World Peace"*

my dear S.A.M., I regret to inform you that Miss Ann Holmes Redding is no longer a person of the Book, she is now a muslim, that makes her a person of the book of islam
wishing & hoping don't make you Christian, no matter how hard you try, she left God, when her heart strayed toward islam, prayers, chants are OK as far as that goes, but for me to give up Christianity would be major world view change, as in no longer believing that the world/universe was created

lets turn this question around, could Miss Ann Holmes Redding be an "official" muslim, if she both believed the Christian Bible with its Triune God & be accepted as a true muslim? what would your local imam say? would he give an A-OK?
my guess is, she is on a journey that leads to full islamic belief, she will be ousted from her position in the church, & many may reject her as a teacher of New Testament Christianity, just on religious grounds, but she will be accepted in her role as a professor otherwise. I just won't be following her course of action any time soon

* its a joke, its a take on "Miss Congeniality" :p

This is so silly, she's a Christian and she wants to follow some Islamic prayer, no one is going to cross examine her as to her detailed beliefs. Prayer is prayer.:shrug:

ashura

06-20-07, 10:34 PM

S.A.M.

06-20-07, 10:47 PM

The "true muslim"/"true Christian" point is the most important. Being able to pray with eachother is one thing. Fully accepting the religion is another.

Jesus' death and resurrection is a fundamental part of Christianity. If she believes in that, she can't be a Muslim. If she doesn't believe in it, then she can't be a Christian.

I think she is entitled to her faith, no matter how unconventional, it hurts no one.:shrug:

one_raven

06-21-07, 02:35 AM

The "true muslim"/"true Christian" point is the most important. Being able to pray with eachother is one thing. Fully accepting the religion is another.

Jesus' death and resurrection is a fundamental part of Christianity. If she believes in that, she can't be a Muslim. If she doesn't believe in it, then she can't be a Christian.

If someone did not believe that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead, but DID follow all of Christ's teachings, would you consider that person a Chirstian?

ashura

06-21-07, 02:41 AM

If someone did not believe that Jesus was crucifoed and rose from the dead, but DID follow all of Christ's teachings, would you consider that person a Chirstian?

No. Like I said, it's a fundamental part of Christianity. That person can go ahead and claim that they follow Christ's teachings, but they're simply not a Christian.

I think she is entitled to her faith, no matter how unconventional, it hurts no one.

Of course she's entitled to claim it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong. Going back to my example, say she believed in Christ's resurrection. By doing that, she believes in something contradictory to the Quran. How can you call that person a Muslim?

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I don't think it's wrong for her to pick and choose what to believe per se. Rather, I find it wrong that she picks and chooses, and then claims to be a part of the whole.

one_raven

06-21-07, 02:45 AM

test

one_raven

06-21-07, 07:11 AM

No. Like I said, it's a fundamental part of Christianity. That person can go ahead and claim that they follow Christ's teachings, but they're simply not a Christian.

We most certainly disagree here.
It is following Christ and his teachings that makes you Chirstian - not following the men who codified the religion.

ashura

06-21-07, 12:08 PM

We most certainly disagree here.
It is following Christ and his teachings that makes you Chirstian - not following the men who codified the religion.

Then I guess there's nothing left for us but to agree to disagree. :shrug:

one_raven

06-21-07, 12:14 PM

Then I guess there's nothing left for us but to agree to disagree. :shrug:

It would seem so.
I think somone who follows Jesus' teachings can very well call themselves Christian.

Those who disagree, in my opinon, might be better off referring to themselves as Pauline or Nicene.

Wisdom_Seeker

06-21-07, 12:16 PM

We most certainly disagree here.
It is following Christ and his teachings that makes you Chirstian - not following the men who codified the religion.

I think that just calling yourself a Christian is against what Jesus thought, so following Christ and his teachings does not necessarily make you a Christian. By calling yourself a Christian you are making a division among us.

"I�m not a divider, am I?" - Jesus

ashura

06-21-07, 12:18 PM

I think that just calling yourself a Christian is against what Jesus thought, so following Christ and his teachings does not necessarily make you a Christian. By calling yourself a Christian you are making a division among us.

"I�m not a divider, am I?" - Jesus

Heh, by calling yourself someone who follows Jesus, you make a division between those who follow Jesus and those who don't. Divisions are impossible to avoid.

What was Jesus referring to specifically in that quote?

Baron Max

06-21-07, 12:22 PM

I think somone who follows Jesus' teachings can very well call themselves Christian.

People who follow Jesus' teachings could call themselves anything they want, but that doesn't make it true or valid. Muslims could easily follow Jesus' teachings, but they're still Muslims.

Baron Max

one_raven

06-21-07, 12:24 PM

I think that just calling yourself a Christian is against what Jesus thought
Really?
Please quote him (chapter and verse) to show where you got this.

so following Christ and his teachings does not necessarily make you a Christian. By calling yourself a Christian you are making a division among us.

"I�m not a divider, am I?" - Jesus
Really?

NIV Matthew 10:32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw�
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

GeoffP

06-21-07, 12:41 PM

Maybe it would be best to say - and back to the original issue - that one could be a member of Christian sects that deny Christ's divinity and also be muslim, but that being a member of a Christian sect that accepts Christ's divinity (which it must be admitted is the majority) would not be tolerated by islam. Fair enough? The argument is pointless, really.

Christenstein

06-21-07, 01:04 PM

No, sandy, it is YOU who doesn't get it. As I stated, you can look it up for yourself. Look, it even has reference to it in Wiki.

"The term God most commonly refers to the deity worshipped by monotheistic and monolatrist religions, usually claimed to be the creator of the universe. As of 2007, a majority of human beings are classified as adherents of monotheistic religions. While the largest of these, Christianity and Islam, vary in their description of this deity, they usually hold it to be the same as the God of Judaism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

Again, sorry to burst your bubble. :D

Perhaps, some theology courses would help sift through the differences and come to that realization.

They were talking about DIFFERENT Abrahams.
The Muslims worship Abraham Ahmed's God.
The Jews/Christians worship Abraham Goldstein's God.

That must be it, right, sandy?

If you think Jesus was referring to Abraham's God from the Old Testament (Tanakh) when he referred to his father, then you are talking about the same God.

How interpretations and impressions of that God may have changed after the fact, based on the different prophets (as they did with each Patriarch) does not change the fact that all three Abrahamic religions (ever wonder where they got that term?) all worship Abraham's God.
Muslims, sandy, are your brothers and sisters, regardless of how deep your fingers are in your ears, and how loudly you scream.

Muslims do not have the indwell of the Holy Spirit or the Gift of Salvation which comes through the blood of Christ alone and one's faith in Him.

Such ignorance almost makes me embarrassed to be of the same primate species. However, I can concede that a lifetime of indoctrination into a cult doctrine can have the effect of creating a bias so great as to remove the capacity for reason and critical thought.

The reason the "gods" have different names in the two books is primarily because the languages are different. The gods of Christianity have various names as well: Yahweh, Elohim, Jesus, Moses, Satan, etc. -with the primary god sharing the names Yahweh and Elohim. The latter two names are Jewish and used within the Torah by the "J" and "E" authors, respectively. The difference was probably due to geographic variance in antiquity (highlands versus lowlands; northern vs. southern; etc.)

The name "Allah" is Arabic rather than Jewish, but is a cognate to one of the Jewish names, Elohim. "Al" and "El" are both the. The word "al" and the Arabic word for god are joined al + ilah to form allah. The word "el" is joined to the Hebrew word for god: el + loah to form eloah. Both words are ultimately transformed from the feminine to the masculine (eloah becomes elohim) plural forms. The etymology of both words have origin in earlier polytheistic cultures.

The myths of both cults acknowledge the same origins of the same mythical gods and the same mythical characters such as Abraham, Adam, Eve, Noah, etc.

Clearly, both mythologies are referring to the same god.

The argument of common origin smacks that of an evolutionist. Apparently, the laws of both the United States of America (minus LA) and England are different though both came from the same tradition.

Wisdom_Seeker

06-21-07, 01:15 PM

Really?
Please quote him (chapter and verse) to show where you got this.

This is my truth, one truth that tells me that calling myself a Christian would have a predefined concept in others that is not truth. I cannot call myself anything since no concept defines me except just being human.

As per request, I quoted the "Gospel of Thomas":
"[Someone says] to him: Tell my brothers to divide the possessions of my father with me. || He says to him: Oh man, who made me a divider? || He turned to his Disciples, he says to them: I'm not a divider, am I?"

Really?

NIV Matthew 10:32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw�
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

That says nothing against what I said, here�s my interpretation of that passage:

If you follow the teachings of your father, or your mother, you are doomed.
If you follow anyone of your own family or anyone else for that matter, you are doomed.
You should only follow yourself, and that will put you against the whole world, starting with your family.

Example: The majority of the members of my family are Catholic, I am not since I was 12 years of age. That put me against my family, against their beliefs. My grandmother did not speak to me for a time.
I started living with my girl 1 year ago, and nobody in my family approved it, do you think I care what others think?

Do you seriously think Jesus was referring to an actual sword? If you do, then you are just as the rest of people that takes everything literally and not give space for the true teachings...
Jesus was talking about being yourself, not fighting each other. You need to carry the sword of your will to be yourself and not follow others.

Wisdom_Seeker

06-21-07, 01:17 PM

He was also talking about getting rid of attachments, like a true Buddha

(Q)

06-21-07, 06:49 PM

Perhaps, some theology courses would help sift through the differences and come to that realization.

What's a 'theology course?' Is that where people sit around making stuff up from other made up stuff?

S.A.M.

06-21-07, 07:30 PM

What's a 'theology course?' Is that where people sit around making stuff up from other made up stuff?

You mean assumptions and inferences?:p

(Q)

06-21-07, 07:43 PM

Could be?

Assumption: A statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn.

Inference: The reasoning involved in drawing a conclusion or making a logical judgment on the basis of circumstantial evidence and prior conclusions rather than on the basis of direct observation.

Hmmm... neither seem to fit the bill, though. There's no mention of the 'absolute' or creation of ideals well beyond logic, reasoning and observation.

S.A.M.

06-21-07, 07:45 PM

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 09:36 PM

Wrong.why? explain

Not ALL Christians believe in the Trinity then, by definetion, I would say that they are not really Christians. UU's don't qualify, mormons don't qualify, JW's don't qualify, they be cults
anyway, in the West you can say anything, you can pretend you are an expert, etc... need to prove it,

- the Bible says NOTHING about the Trinity.not by specific name, but by concept (see below*)

You don't own Jesus or his words.does that mean, you do? explain please

1.) Have you ever read the Quran?yes, its so informative on early islams developement

2.) Do you want me to start quoting the Old Testament?yes, please

You also seem to find it impossible to be anything BUT what you are and not be evil and damned.arggg, what a powerful condemnation

What you think, therefore, is irrelevant in any topic of discssion about any religion.& why pray tell, why should we listen to you?

Exd 3:13 � And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?

Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."]

Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.

from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd003.html#13

here Jesus claims to be God, the people pick up stones to kill him for that

Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn008.html#56

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[B]Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev001.html#top

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev001.html#top

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
I find it rather amusing that Muslims do not find it so offensive to be called Christian, as they love and adore Jesus (peace be to him). Yet the many of the Christians think being called a Muslim is a horrible thing.You're right, its something strange, yeah? :-pfunny, never heard a muslim refer themselves as a Christian? me thinkest thou be fibbing a tad, could you post link, or samples with links?

sounds like Arab Christians would say they are "Christians", not someone who recites the shahada. check your sources

S.A.M.

06-21-07, 10:04 PM

funny, never heard a muslim refer themselves as a Christian? me thinkest thou be fibbing a tad, could you post link, or samples with links?

sounds like Arab Christians would say they are "Christians", not someone who recites the shahada. check your sources

I go to church all the time. When was the last time you visited a mosque?:rolleyes:

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 10:09 PM

Not true. Muslims believe Allah swt has a form which is beyond perfection but we are not made aware of it until the day of Judgement. not true, allah is a black stone idol left in the Kaaba, its shirk

God revealed one piece of Himself the size of a fingernail to Moses (peace be to him) on the Sinai, and the mountain broke into pieces causing Moses to fall unconscious. God cannot resemble human beings as we have many imperfections. He is the creator, therefore He is perfect in every single way. Also, everything in the universe happens with His will.this is an example of Mohammad putting Jewish fairy tales into the quran, Mohammad did not know the diff, that is why the "Satanic Verses" are so condemning, they prove beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Mohammad did not know the difference between God's, Gabriel's or satan's voice or words.

look up the comments yourself, its not in the Bible, they were Jewish teaching stories, the moral of this story, the illiterate storyteller, heard one too many stories by the campfire & thought they were true beliefs or Bible verses, so show me diff from non-muslim sources

S.A.M.

06-21-07, 10:12 PM

So you believe in the Satanic verses because they are in the Bible?

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 10:30 PM

Possibly, but I don't think it was necessary.
They say there was a statue in Alexandria of a monk from the far east who burned himself alive in protest of something (can't remember what) in Jesus' time.
The Silk Road WAS open at that time, and the exchange of goods implies the possibility of the exchange of ideas.
the Silk Road was open, but if Jesus was God as He claimed He was, then He already had a wealth of knowledge within Himself, see the trip to the Temple at age 12 among the rabbis

There are some real uncanny similarities in their teachings.
Wehther that's direct (or indirect) influence, a matter of simple common sense in their philosophies or something more "spiritual", I can't say - neither can anyone else, really.Don Richardson wrote a book called "Eternity in their Hearts", whose basic premise is that God put part of His story into all of us, so that we recognized the Gospel when we hear it, see Korean, Chinese, & other SE Asian ethnic examples, that converted because of that, Paul basically says the same thing in Romans, where he says that nature reveals God

No.
I am nothing.
Once your belief becomes codified into a system, it no longer allows for individual thought, exploration and further development.interesting, then you are still searching, on the journey toward or ???

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 10:41 PM

So you believe in the Satanic verses because they are in the Bible?oh my little taqiyya, you are so funny, so clever, I think that is called a "run-around" or a "re-direct"

the only "Satanic Verses" were in the quran, whilst Mohammad was in Mecca, several hadiths mention it, especially Meccans bowing down with Mohammad, prior to their islamic conquest, so after Mohammad was in safe hands, he excised them, voila no more "cranes"

at worst they were the words of satan, at best the sign of a coward, who succumbed in time of weakness, to the pagans round about

BTW, if any satanic verses were in the Bible, why did Mohammad claim that muslims should look toward the Book? my he was a 2 minded man, 1st one way, then the other

S.A.M.

06-21-07, 10:43 PM

oh my little taqiyya, you are so funny, so clever, I think that is called a "run-around" or a "re-direct"

the only "Satanic Verses" were in the quran, whilst Mohammad was in Mecca, several hadiths mention it, especially Meccans bowing down with Mohammad, prior to their islamic conquest, so after Mohammad was in safe hands, he excised them, voila no more "cranes"

at worst they were the words of satan, at best the sign of a coward, who succumbed in time of weakness, to the pagans round about

BTW, if any satanic verses were in the Bible, why did Mohammad claim that muslims should look toward the Book? my he was a 2 minded man, 1st one way, then the other

So you believe in some stories from the Hadith but not others? Any non Muslim sources from the time?

(Q)

06-21-07, 10:46 PM

You haven't gone back far enough. The "laws" of science for example.

What laws?

The absolute, beyond logic reasoning and observation.

It always ceases to amaze me when the argument claiming that the absolute truth is beyond our measly attempts to comprehend it, but rest assured it's glaringly obvious to be the truth absolute, that none shall deny.

S.A.M.

06-21-07, 10:48 PM

What laws?

It always ceases to amaze me when the argument claiming that the absolute truth is beyond our measly attempts to comprehend it, but rest assured it's glaringly obvious to be the truth absolute, that none shall deny.

Any mathematical derivation, for instance. One could say that your comprehension of another man's assumption is an inference in itself.

Plus there are the basic assumptions of the method itself:

True physical universe exists
The universe follows a natural order
The principles that define the functioning of the universe can be discovered
All ideas are tentative, potentially changed by new information

All absolute truths. Yes? (always ceases to amaze or never ceases to amaze? ;) )

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 11:03 PM

People who follow Jesus' teachings could call themselves anything they want, but that doesn't make it true or valid. true, see mormon example & as they like to point out, its even in their name, "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

Muslims could easily follow Jesus' teachings, but they're still Muslims.

Baron MaxI think thats semantics, if a person follows Jesus, he can no longer be a muslim, he is a christian

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 11:12 PM

So you believe in some stories from the Hadith but not others? Any non Muslim sources from the time?

now you're parroting me, how disingenuous, my little propaganda mill

are you going to stand there & tell the world, that the hadiths are not to be trusted? that early muslim followers of Mohammad, couldn't get their stories straight, when out of religious piety, they wrote down the sayings & doings & comings of Mohammad as an example for all you young muslims thereafter, are you saying they were wrong? can you issue a fatwah on that, my dear little imam?

are you sunnni or shia, how do you officially verify hadiths? what formula do you use?

S.A.M.

06-21-07, 11:14 PM

I am interested in what parts of the Hadith you believe.

SkinWalker

06-21-07, 11:26 PM

then, by definetion, I would say that they are not really Christians. UU's don't qualify, mormons don't qualify, JW's don't qualify, they be cults

Now isn't that the cult calling the kettle black?

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 11:43 PM

I am interested in what parts of the Hadith you believe.taqiyya, I'm not muslim, so it don't matter to me, its your record, honor it

or are you saying its all lies?

your formula please

WildBlueYonder

06-21-07, 11:44 PM

Now isn't that the cult calling the kettle black?hey Skin, whats up? jump right in, will you

S.A.M.

06-22-07, 05:34 AM

taqiyya, I'm not muslim, so it don't matter to me, its your record, honor it

or are you saying its all lies?

your formula please

You use it so freely to support your arguments though, I would really like to know what parts you believe in.

It would help to know your criteria for determining whats true and whats not.:)

DiamondHearts

06-22-07, 05:51 AM

not true, allah is a black stone idol left in the Kaaba, its shirk

The black stone is an unanimate object. We don't worship the black stone, we worship the Lord of the Kaaba.

I suggest you do a little more research on Islam.

this is an example of Mohammad putting Jewish fairy tales into the quran, Mohammad did not know the diff, that is why the "Satanic Verses" are so condemning, they prove beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Mohammad did not know the difference between God's, Gabriel's or satan's voice or words.

I believe this is a hadith, saying.

Do you have any proof to backup your claims beside the word of one lunatic author? Whenever you are asked for proof, you seem to just change the subject, why is this?

look up the comments yourself, its not in the Bible, they were Jewish teaching stories, the moral of this story, the illiterate storyteller, heard one too many stories by the campfire & thought they were true beliefs or Bible verses, so show me diff from non-muslim sources

Islam is the religion of Jesus and Moses and all the prophets (peace be upon them), this is Muslim belief. Pure speculation on your behalf will not convince anyone.

taqiyya, I'm not muslim, so it don't matter to me, its your record, honor it

or are you saying its all lies?

your formula please

Lying is abhorrent to Muslims. I don't know where exactly you picked this up that it is permissible. Please provide full citations.

SAM is an honest person, please refrain from personal attacks on others.

pjdude1219

06-22-07, 06:02 AM

while i don't think one can belong to both faiths at the same time one can certainly follow all they ethical tenats of both faiths at the same time considering most are the same.

sandy

06-22-07, 07:24 AM

I disagree that "Islam is the religion of Jesus and Moses and all the prophets."

Judaism was. At least for most of the prophets that followed Jesus and believed in God.

(Q)

06-22-07, 07:43 AM

Any mathematical derivation, for instance. One could say that your comprehension of another man's assumption is an inference in itself.

Plus there are the basic assumptions of the method itself:

True physical universe exists
The universe follows a natural order
The principles that define the functioning of the universe can be discovered
All ideas are tentative, potentially changed by new information

All absolute truths. Yes? (always ceases to amaze or never ceases to amaze? ;) )

A mathematical derivation isn't a law, nor is anything else you've made up. Why not compare Faraday Law or Gauss Law?

You could even try denying gravity. :rolleyes:

S.A.M.

06-22-07, 07:45 AM

A mathematical derivation isn't a law, nor is anything else you've made up. Why not compare Faraday Law or Gauss Law?

You could even try denying gravity. :rolleyes:

Thats why I put it in quotes, dear.:)

Are you saying those assumptions are not absolute truths in science?

(Q)

06-22-07, 07:47 AM

I disagree that "Islam is the religion of Jesus and Moses and all the prophets."

Judaism was. At least for most of the prophets that followed Jesus and believed in God.

Being in denial doesn't change the facts.

(Q)

06-22-07, 07:49 AM

Thats why I put it in quotes, dear.:)

Are you saying those assumptions are not absolute truths in science?

No, I'm not.

S.A.M.

06-22-07, 07:53 AM

No, I'm not.

Ah, back to pulling teeth.

I didn't make it up by the way

In Understanding Physics, Asimov spoke of theories as "arguments" where one deduces a "scheme" or model. Arguments or theories always begin with some premises - "arbitrary elements" as Hawking calls them (see above), which are here described as "assumptions". An assumption according to Asimov is "something accepted without proof, and it is incorrect to speak of an assumption as either true or false, since there is no way of proving it to be either (If there were, it would no longer be an assumption). It is better to consider assumptions as either useful or useless, depending on whether deductions made from them corresponded to reality.... On the other hand, it seems obvious that assumptions are the weak points in any argument, as they have to be accepted on faith in a philosophy of science that prides itself on its rationalism. Since we must start somewhere, we must have assumptions, but at least let us have as few assumptions as possible." (See Ockham's razor)

Do you live in a bivalent universe?:p

(Q)

06-22-07, 07:59 AM

S.A.M.

06-22-07, 08:48 AM

I guess you missed reading and understanding these parts of your quote:

"It is better to consider assumptions as either useful or useless, depending on whether deductions made from them corresponded to reality...."

"Since we must start somewhere, we must have assumptions, but at least let us have as few assumptions as possible." (See Ockham's razor)"

No I didn't I was just responding to your earliest post in this discussion.

What's a 'theology course?' Is that where people sit around making stuff up from other made up stuff?

:p

All science is based on assumptions at its very basis, if you care to really examine it, as you do with religion.
Unless of course, if you live in a bivalent universe. ;)

one_raven

06-22-07, 09:19 AM

the Silk Road was open, but if Jesus was God as He claimed He was, then He already had a wealth of knowledge within Himself, see the trip to the Temple at age 12 among the rabbis
He didn't claim to be God, and his trip to teh temple when he was 12 was just the beginning.

Don Richardson wrote a book called "Eternity in their Hearts", whose basic premise is that God put part of His story into all of us, so that we recognized the Gospel when we hear it, see Korean, Chinese, & other SE Asian ethnic examples, that converted because of that, Paul basically says the same thing in Romans, where he says that nature reveals God
Any apologist can say anything they wish to support their veiwpoint.
I have also heard people say that the coincidences between Jesus' life and the lives of the religious icons who preceeded him were put there by Satan with foreknowledge of what would happen to confuse men.
That's just as absurd a statement.

interesting, then you are still searching, on the journey toward or ???
I'll always be on the journey.
Once your belief becomes codified into a system, it no longer allows for individual thought, exploration and further development.
Religion kills spirituality and truth.

why? explain
No.
I'm not going to repeat myself over and over again.

then, by definetion, I would say that they are not really Christians.
Isn't that what this discussion is all about - what the definition of Christianity is?
Who are you to be the authority on this, and simply dictate what the definition is?

does that mean, you do? explain please
Of course not.
No one does - that's teh point - see above.

arggg, what a powerful condemnation
And, quite unfortuantely, it is true.

& why pray tell, why should we listen to you?
In my opinion, because I am unaffiliated, therefore can be objective.
sandy has proven otherwise about herself.

Whether or not you do listen to, doesn't mean a damned thing to me.
Take or leave my words as you will.

here Jesus claims to be God, the people pick up stones to kill him for that
No he does not.
People make presumptions about him - he never claims it.
He claims nothing more than he had seen Abraham.
Furthermore, anything outside the Synoptic Gospels (with the possible exception of the Gnostic Gospels) can be not be truly accepted as the teaching of Jesus - as they were written by early church apologists.
We are talking about Christ's words - not Nicene declarations.

As far as your Revalation quotes - the above applies, but even more, how could you possibly quote the supposed dream of John after Jesus' death as the teachings of Jesus?
That's absurd.
Believe it as truth all you wish, but don't try and pass it off as Jesus' words.

Wisdom_Seeker

06-22-07, 09:22 AM

I disagree that "Islam is the religion of Jesus and Moses and all the prophets."

Judaism was. At least for most of the prophets that followed Jesus and believed in God.

He is a muslim Sandy, he is telling what muslims believe, and you disagree that he thinks that way? wft?

Christenstein

06-22-07, 09:34 AM

He is a muslim Sandy, he is telling what muslims believe, and you disagree that he thinks that way? wft?

She is Christian, Wisdom Seeker, she is telling what Christians believe, and you disagree with that she thinks that way? ^%?

Christenstein

nova900

06-22-07, 09:58 AM

I'll always be on the journey.
Once your belief becomes codified into a system, it no longer allows for individual thought, exploration and further development.
Religion kills spirituality and truth.

How true.
The rigid mindset of the religous fundamentalist is a scary place indeed!:bawl:

Wisdom_Seeker

06-22-07, 10:27 AM

How true.
The rigid mindset of the religous fundamentalist is a scary place indeed!:bawl:

points to Raven and nova900, true stuff

Wisdom_Seeker

06-22-07, 10:34 AM

She is Christian, Wisdom Seeker, she is telling what Christians believe, and you disagree with that she thinks that way? ^%?

Christenstein

I don�t disagree that she believes in Christianity, I totally agree with her being a Christian. I�m nobody to tell people that Sandy is not a Christian, if she say she is a Christian, I believe her, if she say she believes in a god, I believe her.

If a muslim tells you that muslims believe in Jesus, Mohammed and all the prophets, how can you disagree with that?

Christenstein

06-22-07, 11:27 AM

I don�t disagree that she believes in Christianity, I totally agree with her being a Christian. I�m nobody to tell people that Sandy is not a Christian, if she say she is a Christian, I believe her, if she say she believes in a god, I believe her.

If a muslim tells you that muslims believe in Jesus, Mohammed and all the prophets, how can you disagree with that?

Apparently, you can if you were a Christian. - Christenstein

Wisdom_Seeker

06-22-07, 11:31 AM

Apparently, you can if you were a Christian. - Christenstein

You are missing my point at all dude, but I�m giving up on this discussion. I personally couldn�t care less, and here I am, posting stuff I don�t really care about. Just a thought for you to think about.

TruthSeeker

06-22-07, 12:34 PM

I think that just calling yourself a Christian is against what Jesus thought, so following Christ and his teachings does not necessarily make you a Christian. By calling yourself a Christian you are making a division among us.
Christ said that a Christian must carry the cross with Him. He NEVER said that you must "accept Jesus in your heart" or "believe He rose from the dead", NEVER. It was JOHN who said that, and he alone. Not Jesus. And anyone who studied the history of Chirstianity would know that John not even MET Jesus. John was born long after Jesus was dead, and he does not represent the original views of Christians. The original Christians were fairly enlightened people who follow the way of peace and never condemned anyone for their sins. Very different from modern Christianity.

That is not to say that all that John said was bullshit. A lot of what John says is bang on, but not necessarily because he was inspired by God. John's books are some of my favorites, even though they are not 100% correct (specially the gospel- 1 John is just plain amazing).

"I�m not a divider, am I?" - Jesus
He most certainly is, unfortunately. Christian vs. Non-Christian. Sounds like division to me. Odly enough, I instincitvely try to resolve that problem.....:confused:

TruthSeeker

06-22-07, 12:35 PM

So you believe in the Satanic verses because they are in the Bible?
And do you believe the satanic verses in the Qu'ran? Because, unfortunately, all religions have them mixed with the real verses...

TruthSeeker

06-22-07, 12:39 PM

I disagree that "Islam is the religion of Jesus and Moses and all the prophets."

Judaism was. At least for most of the prophets that followed Jesus and believed in God.
Islam is based on Christianity and Judaism. It only adds a little bit. So, yes, Islam is the same religion of Jesus and all the other Abrahamic profets.

I suggest you study a little bit of theology. Then, maybe, who knows, you might actually understand what true Christianity is.

Wisdom_Seeker

06-22-07, 12:47 PM

nova900

06-22-07, 12:52 PM

Christenstein

06-22-07, 12:58 PM

Christ said that a Christian must carry the cross with Him. He NEVER said that you must "accept Jesus in your heart" or "believe He rose from the dead", NEVER. It was JOHN who said that, and he alone. Not Jesus. And anyone who studied the history of Chirstianity would know that John not even MET Jesus. John was born long after Jesus was dead, and he does not represent the original views of Christians. The original Christians were fairly enlightened people who follow the way of peace and never condemned anyone for their sins. Very different from modern Christianity.

That is not to say that all that John said was bullshit. A lot of what John says is bang on, but not necessarily because he was inspired by God. John's books are some of my favorites, even though they are not 100% correct (specially the gospel- 1 John is just plain amazing).

On the contrary, when Jesus told His disciples about the what would happen to Him in Jerusalem, Peter denied it saying, "Never, Lord." Jesus rebuked Him by saying, "Get behind me, Satan. You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." Jesus further said, "You must deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it."

Apparently, when Peter denied the death and resurrection, Jesus rebuked him. In context to His death and resurrection, He tells His disciples to lose their lives to follow Him, taking up the cross to the death like He would do. This passage in Matthew says that one needs to repent and accept the death and resurrection of Jesus or else one is Satan. The scripture is quoted underneath for reference. - Christenstein

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

TruthSeeker

06-22-07, 01:08 PM

You�re going too deep into scriptures for my taste. I read a lot about Jesus and about what he said, and I�m aware of my limited perspective on things, so I keep reading the same until it makes sense for me, I get what I learned from it.
It is necessary to go deep into the scriptures. We must investigate it in order to find the true meanings behind them. Altough I can see you have a good heart and will likely interpret it correctly.

I personally don�t think we should make divisions ammong us, not religion, beliefs, countries, no divisions, that is what I think. Divisions only generate bad feelings, I think Jesus would agree with me on that one.
I absolutely agree. However, the divisions are there and we must reconcile them. And, as far as I know, the only way to reconcile them is to value our differences as opposed to fighting over them. It's diversity vs division. Going through division to diversity may be one of our greatest challenges, as a species.

TruthSeeker

06-22-07, 01:09 PM

I hear what you are saying but it's hard to get thru to many fundamentalists who so rigidly stick to all the man created dogmatic B/S.
Yes, absolutely.

Rather than focus on the finer spiritual teachings of Jesus, far too many religous minded folk dwell on the "salvation and sin,punishment factor", which makes me suspect as perhaps Wisdom Seeker does, that they are more concerned with saving their own butts rather than embracing the concepts of unconditional love and selfless service.
Yes, yes! :)

TruthSeeker

06-22-07, 01:20 PM

On the contrary, when Jesus told His disciples about the what would happen to Him in Jerusalem, Peter denied it saying, "Never, Lord." Jesus rebuked Him by saying, "Get behind me, Satan. You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
Absolutely. Though Peter was not Satan, but what he said was a "stumbling block" to Jesus. Remember the Garden of Gestmain (I hate spelling that, LOL! :p )? What do you learn in the Garden?

Jesus further said, "You must deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it."
Yes, absolutely. Nobody is a Christian if he does not carry the cross with Jesus. In other words, you must give your life for the good of the whole species and the world. That's what he mean in the last sentence.

Truly, I say to you ( :D ), for the ones who do not fear to lose their lives for the goodness of all are the truky free ones, and those who seek to protect their lives to the point of hurting others are, truly, in deep turmoil and in fear of losing their lives. Where is the freedom in such fear? Therefore, do not fear death, for God is eternal, and so is the spirit that follows Him. Whoever has God within, his spirit is eternal with His spirit. Whoever follows the Love of God will never truly perish, but die in peace, for their lives will be a blessing to all, and the memories of their blessings will live forever in the hearts of men.

This passage in Matthew says that one needs to repent and accept the death and resurrection of Jesus or else one is Satan. The scripture is quoted underneath for reference. - Christenstein
That's an immature interpretation of the scripture. The scripture essentially talks about fear. Jesus was afraid of the crucifixion. That's why he cried in the garden. That's why he asked "Father, do I really need to do this?". That's why he rebuked Peter, because he was afraid of the crucifixion and Peter, rather then motivating him, stirred up his fear. Oh, and nowhere in the scripture does it say "repent". That's totally out of your own mind.

TruthSeeker

06-22-07, 01:22 PM

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
Why do you think he said that? Maybe he loves Jesus? Wouldn't you say the same? But...

Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
Fear.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
That's what a Christian would do, right?

Wisdom_Seeker

06-22-07, 01:30 PM

I absolutely agree. However, the divisions are there and we must reconcile them. And, as far as I know, the only way to reconcile them is to value our differences as opposed to fighting over them. It's diversity vs division. Going through division to diversity may be one of our greatest challenges, as a species.

I think you are right about that, we must reconcile our inevitable divisions, like were you were born and what race you are. Those are inevitable divisions that must be reconciled, because are just superficial, and we must be bigger than that. Jealousy and envy you know�

But I�m talking about man-made divisions; they make no sense to me man. If you are a Christian, it is more likely you won�t accept someone else being a Muslim, and vice versa.
When I was a kid, like 7 year old, my family was going for a political party, so I was all about their colors and stuff, because my family told me to go for them, that is the �good side�. I was so happy, because I was in the �good side�. Then it happened, one of my best friends was going for another political party, it was different than mine. He was no longer my friend for that period of time, we became like adversaries. I think is human nature and we learn it from infancy.
It is like the �dark side� and the �good side� in Star Wars, I keep thinking, they are all in the �dark side�. The "good side" is that of those who are not fighting at all.
In all the movies, the TV, everything, you see a �good side� and a �bad side�. You have to be in one of those, you can�t have both. But in my perspective, you are in the bad side just by choosing a side.

You learn this from infancy from a lot of sources, and if a kid is born in a Christian family, he will believe he is in the �good side�, and can�t mix with people in the �bad side�.

Christenstein

06-22-07, 01:38 PM

That's an immature interpretation of the scripture. The scripture essentially talks about fear. Jesus was afraid of the crucifixion. That's why he cried in the garden. That's why he asked "Father, do I really need to do this?". That's why he rebuked Peter, because he was afraid of the crucifixion and Peter, rather then motivating him, stirred up his fear. Oh, and nowhere in the scripture does it say "repent". That's totally out of your own mind.

I don't believe it was about fear. If it were about fear, why would Jesus bother to even tell His disciples what will happen? It seems to me Jesus is owning up to what the Father asked Him to do and not running away from it. In fact, He tells Peter that Satan was a "stumbling block" to Him. Notice that it is merely a "stumbling block," nothing more. The description for fear would be something more than a "stumbling block."

Why do you think he said that? Maybe he loves Jesus? Wouldn't you say the same? But...

Fear.

That's what a Christian would do, right?

If Peter truly loved Him, then Peter would have trusted in Him and what He said about the things to pass. Instead, Peter was being selfish, thinking about himself in much the same way selfishness causes sin today. In fact, Jesus rebukes His disciples by telling them not to be selfish.

Christenstein

Nutter

06-22-07, 02:20 PM

If a muslim tells you that muslims believe in Jesus, Mohammed and all the prophets, how can you disagree with that?

Of course the critical distinction is exactly what one believes about "Jesus, Mohammed and all the prophets."

DiamondHearts

06-22-07, 03:11 PM

This is a chapter of the Holy Quran about the life of Maryam and Jesus (peace be to them).

Surat Maryam

19:27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/19.htm

How does this compare with Christian belief? Any comments?

GeoffP

06-22-07, 03:28 PM

The Quranic verse says Jesus was not God. The NT ones say he was.

one_raven

06-22-07, 03:30 PM

The NT ones say he was.

No they don't.
Some Christians do.

Christenstein

06-22-07, 03:44 PM

The NT ones say he was.

No they don't.
Some Christians do.

You speak with such false authority. Why don't you look at this verse in the Bible?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

anonymous2

06-22-07, 03:51 PM

You speak with such false authority. Why don't you look at this verse in the Bible?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

While I do in fact believe that there are verses in the NT which refer to Jesus as God or at least divine in some way, I personally wouldn't use this verse as authoritative.

For one, it's a disputed passage and some early manuscripts do not contain it.

Secondly, being "one" doesn't necessarily mean "equal in essence". In John, for instance, Jesus is portrayed as praying for his disciples to be one, and one in "us" (Jesus and "his Father"). This John passage seems to be about some kind of unity of purpose and not necessarily essence, unless someone wishes to say that Christians can be equal with God, in my opinion.

GeoffP

06-22-07, 04:02 PM

No they don't.
Some Christians do.

You again! Don't make me smite you.

GeoffP

06-22-07, 04:03 PM

Wisdom_Seeker

06-22-07, 04:10 PM

I will go me from here and don my hair shirt, and put ashes on my head. Which verse is this?

he never puts the verse, hes got it "memorized"!

one_raven

06-22-07, 04:44 PM

While I do in fact believe that there are verses in the NT which refer to Jesus as God or at least divine in some way, I personally wouldn't use this verse.

Allow me to clarify.
Jesus never says he is God.
His disciples DO seem to imply that he is divine in some way.
No one says he is God.

This is all as far as I am aware.
I have been searching for quite some time now.

one_raven

06-22-07, 04:45 PM

It's 1 John 5:7, by the way.
And it certainly does not apply.

Christenstein

06-22-07, 04:57 PM

It's 1 John 5:7, by the way.
And it certainly does not apply.

The verse is still debatable among scholars. The whole point of this exercise is to expose your arrogance in matters of Biblical interpretation. There are certainly other verses, less under debate, that I could have use, but I used this one to expose you. I rest my case. - Christenstein

one_raven

06-22-07, 05:03 PM

The verse is still debatable among scholars...

I rest my case. - Christenstein
:roflmao:

WildBlueYonder

06-22-07, 11:58 PM

You use it so freely to support your arguments though, I would really like to know what parts you believe in.
what? are you saying I'm a better muslim than you?

It would help to know your criteria for determining whats true and whats not.:-)would like yours first

The black stone is an unanimate object. We don't worship the black stone, we worship the Lord of the Kaaba.& that lord would be the stone moon god allah

I suggest you do a little more research on Islam.why? you & S.A.M. are providing it for me, thanks BTW

Do you have any proof to backup your claims beside the word of one lunatic author? would you be referring to SIR Salman Rushdie? bad taste, calling him a lunatic, I would tend to call R. Khomeini the lunatic,for issuing a fatwah to a novelist

Whenever you are asked for proof, you seem to just change the subject, why is this?& I thought that was your strategy

Islam is the religion of Jesus and Moses and all the prophets (peace be upon them), this is Muslim belief. Pure speculation on your behalf will not convince anyone.by Mohammad trying to incorparate Jesus & the Jewish prophets,
1) he was attempting to prove he was a prophet &
2) PREEMPTING chrisitians & jews by insisting that Jesus, Moses were muslims

if that were true, why didn't the Bible ever include the name "allah", as a form of worship, as a name for children, why wasn't Jesus named differently? as in "allashua", which would be translated as "allah saves", instead He was called "Y'shua", for "YHWH saves",

Issa is an arabic transliteration of "Jesus", which is the Greek form of what in english is "Joshua"
but of course allah & Mohammad didn't know hebrew or Aramaic to know that, since allah is an arabic god, he only understands arabic
lets face it, Mohammad was a poor historian

Lying is abhorrent to Muslims. I don't know where exactly you picked this up that it is permissible.hmmm, why don't I believe that?

Please provide full citations.as an islamic scholar you should already be familiar with this, tiqayya was used to wrest the califate from Ali (of the Shia)

SAM is an honest person, please refrain from personal attacks on others.thank you for vouch-safeing for her, so, are you an honest person?

WildBlueYonder

06-23-07, 02:04 AM

This is a chapter of the Holy Quran about the life of Maryam and Jesus (peace be to them).

[I]Surat Maryam

...
28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"this is such a laughable mistake, poor Mohammad mixed up Mariam, the sister of Moses & Aaron (of the tribe of Levi) from about 1,000 years before Jesus was born, with Mary of the tribe of Judah, the kings of Israel were supposed to come from the tribe of Judah, God had promised the that the scepter would never leave the House of David, which was from the tribe of Judah, but of course, Mohammad could not know that, since he did not the Bible, but made it up as he went along to put in the quran, remembering bits & pieces of what he had heard along caravan routes & campfires

see this:

Miriam

Miriam was Aaron and Moses' older sister. According to some sources, she was seven years older than Moses, but other sources seem to indicate that she was older than that. Some sources indicate that Miriam was Puah, one of the midwives who rescued Hebrew babies from Pharaoh's edict against them (Ex. 1:15-19).
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm

29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
1st of all, Jesus was not a muslim, it wasn't invented until Mohammad did, Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a prophet & died for all. his first miracle was turning water into wine at the wedding at Cana, read the Bible if you want original sources
...

33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
here is the kicker, the preemption clause, trying to make every body believe that this version is correct, not what the Bible says, why, how could anyone believe those early chrisitians, they would never allow "true islam" to be written in the Bible, while those true historians, those virtuous men of islam would never, no never allow corruption to creep into the words of Jesus or Mohammad

35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.again its obvious Mohammad didn't understand Christianity then, nor do you now, otherwise you would really exclaim, "I'm a christian!!!" & mean it
if there is any muslim that is so blinded by the quran, that things that Jesus is the physical son of God, why then they are mormon, that is the only cult that believes that, so muslin=ms are in good company among believers of falsehood

36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.allah is the way of the broad road that leads to destruction of which Jesus spoke about

How does this compare with Christian belief? Any comments?exact opposite, islam may be the true anti-Christ

DiamondHearts

06-23-07, 03:35 AM

WildBlueYonder, I thought that we can talk to each other with respect and courtesy but now I see perhaps I was asking for too much from you.

& that lord would be the stone moon god allah

How many times do I have to quote the same verses for you to understand? Allah swt is the Lord of the Universe, the sun, the moon and everything which exists are subservient to Him. He is not visible to us and His form is nothing like His creation. If you wish to continue, please provide Quranic verses to support this claim.

by Mohammad trying to incorparate Jesus & the Jewish prophets,
1) he was attempting to prove he was a prophet &
2) PREEMPTING chrisitians & jews by insisting that Jesus, Moses were muslims

I guess you have a right to speculate on this, though it is still merely speculation. Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be to him) is the last prophet and that he came to correct the errant ways of the Christians and Jews who had fallen from the true religion of Abraham.

Islam is the most monotheistic religion on the planet. Allah swt (God) has unlimited power and control over the universe, He is far above man without any child from His creation as this would taint His honor, and not similar to any creation with a perfect form which is hidden and beyond comprehension of man until the Day of Judgement.

if that were true, why didn't the Bible ever include the name "allah", as a form of worship, as a name for children, why wasn't Jesus named differently? as in "allashua", which would be translated as "allah saves", instead He was called "Y'shua", for "YHWH saves",

Issa is an arabic transliteration of "Jesus", which is the Greek form of what in english is "Joshua"
but of course allah & Mohammad didn't know hebrew or Aramaic to know that, since allah is an arabic god, he only understands arabic
lets face it, Mohammad was a poor historian

Lingual differences do not equal different God and prophets. Arabic is related to Hebrew and Aramaic as a semitic language. Because we call Jesus Isa (peace be to him) and Elohim, Allah swt, this does not mean we mean different things.

.as an islamic scholar you should already be familiar with this, tiqayya was used to wrest the califate from Ali (of the Shia)

This is complete fabrication, you obviously have no knowledge of Islamic history. Also, Hazrat Ali was a Muslim sahabi, revered by the four madhabs and the Jafari madhab.

Note, I nor any of the Muslims on this forum practice any form of this. This is just another poorly researched argument.

this is such a laughable mistake, poor Mohammad mixed up Mariam, the sister of Moses & Aaron (of the tribe of Levi) from about 1,000 years before Jesus was born, with Mary of the tribe of Judah, the kings of Israel were supposed to come from the tribe of Judah, God had promised the that the scepter would never leave the House of David, which was from the tribe of Judah, but of course, Mohammad could not know that, since he did not the Bible, but made it up as he went along to put in the quran, remembering bits & pieces of what he had heard along caravan routes & campfires

The virgin mother of Prophet Jesus Hazrat Maryam had a brother who was named Haroon, but was obviously not the same Haroon from the time of Hazrat Musa (peace be to them all).

From my entire argument, is this the only thing you wish to comment on?

1st of all, Jesus was not a muslim, it wasn't invented until Mohammad did, Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a prophet & died for all. his first miracle was turning water into wine at the wedding at Cana, read the Bible if you want original sources
...

Jesus was descended from the tribe of Judah, son of Yaqub (Israel) however his religion was pure monotheism as practiced by our father Abraham (peace to them all).

Islam in its simplest form means untainted monotheism, submission only to God and not to any man or any creature. It is in essence, the pure religion of Abraham without the basis of ethnicity by Judaism and without a trinity like Christianity.

To Muslims, all the prophets from the first man Adam to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be to them) followed the religion of Abraham.

here is the kicker, the preemption clause, trying to make every body believe that this version is correct, not what the Bible says, why, how could anyone believe those early chrisitians, they would never allow "true islam" to be written in the Bible, while those true historians, those virtuous men of islam would never, no never allow corruption to creep into the words of Jesus or Mohammad

The disciples and early christians were following Jesus' true teachings, and hence we not tainted by the trinity which emerged later. The trinity, in essence, is what separates Islam from Christianity.

Surat As-Saff 61:14. O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples, "We are Allah.s helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.

Surat Ali Imran 3:47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

51. "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims [Submitters to God in Monotheism].

53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness."

54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

again its obvious Mohammad didn't understand Christianity then, nor do you now, otherwise you would really exclaim, "I'm a christian!!!" & mean it
if there is any muslim that is so blinded by the quran, that things that Jesus is the physical son of God, why then they are mormon, that is the only cult that believes that, so muslin=ms are in good company among believers of falsehood

I, along with all Muslims, believe ourselves to be the rightful followers of Prophet Jesus (peace be to him).

allah is the way of the broad road that leads to destruction of which Jesus spoke about

Allah swt is the God of Abraham, denying him is denying monotheism and the religion of Abraham (peace be to him).

exact opposite, islam may be the true anti-Christ

I am interested in this statement, please explain more.

TruthSeeker

06-23-07, 01:38 PM

I don't believe it was about fear. If it were about fear, why would Jesus bother to even tell His disciples what will happen?
That makes no sense. That's a total non-sequitur.

He was CLEARLY afraid. Read the scriptures when he's at the garden...

It seems to me Jesus is owning up to what the Father asked Him to do and not running away from it.
Of course! That doesn't mean he's afraid, though.

In fact, He tells Peter that Satan was a "stumbling block" to Him.
Of course. Because Satan was increasing his fear. The fear is an obstacle to his work.

Notice that it is merely a "stumbling block," nothing more. The description for fear would be something more than a "stumbling block."
Certainly not. That's precisely what fear is to him- a stumbling block.

If Peter truly loved Him, then Peter would have trusted in Him and what He said about the things to pass.
Peter was one of the disciples that most loved Him. It wasn't a matter of trust- it was a matter of love. He didn't want Jesus to go.

Instead, Peter was being selfish, thinking about himself in much the same way selfishness causes sin today.
Not necessarily selfish. I would say it was more self-centered then selfish. Fear is not a sin. A sin is when you willingly do something harmful to yourself or others. You can't totally control fear. It just happens. Of course, once you identify it, you can manage it, but fear is just a natural feeling.

In fact, Jesus rebukes His disciples by telling them not to be selfish.
He never said Peter was selfish. Where did he say that?

TruthSeeker

06-23-07, 01:40 PM

I think you are right about that, we must reconcile our inevitable divisions, like were you were born and what race you are. Those are inevitable divisions that must be reconciled, because are just superficial, and we must be bigger than that. Jealousy and envy you know�
Yes...

But I�m talking about man-made divisions; they make no sense to me man. If you are a Christian, it is more likely you won�t accept someone else being a Muslim, and vice versa.
Not all people are like that. I consider myself sort of Christian and I'm not divisive in any way.

When I was a kid, like 7 year old, my family was going for a political party, so I was all about their colors and stuff, because my family told me to go for them, that is the �good side�. I was so happy, because I was in the �good side�. Then it happened, one of my best friends was going for another political party, it was different than mine. He was no longer my friend for that period of time, we became like adversaries. I think is human nature and we learn it from infancy.

It is like the �dark side� and the �good side� in Star Wars, I keep thinking, they are all in the �dark side�. The "good side" is that of those who are not fighting at all.
In all the movies, the TV, everything, you see a �good side� and a �bad side�. You have to be in one of those, you can�t have both. But in my perspective, you are in the bad side just by choosing a side.

You learn this from infancy from a lot of sources, and if a kid is born in a Christian family, he will believe he is in the �good side�, and can�t mix with people in the �bad side�.
Yes, very sad...

TruthSeeker

06-23-07, 02:11 PM

The Quranic verse says Jesus was not God. The NT ones say he was.
Jesus himself said he was not God.

Jesus was called "teacher" by Mary...

TruthSeeker

06-23-07, 02:13 PM

While I do in fact believe that there are verses in the NT which refer to Jesus as God or at least divine in some way, I personally wouldn't use this verse as authoritative.

For one, it's a disputed passage and some early manuscripts do not contain it.
Yes. But most Christians don't know that because they don't study the history of their own religion.

Secondly, being "one" doesn't necessarily mean "equal in essence". In John, for instance, Jesus is portrayed as praying for his disciples to be one, and one in "us" (Jesus and "his Father"). This John passage seems to be about some kind of unity of purpose and not necessarily essence, unless someone wishes to say that Christians can be equal with God, in my opinion.
Precisely

TruthSeeker

06-23-07, 02:15 PM

The verse is still debatable among scholars. The whole point of this exercise is to expose your arrogance in matters of Biblical interpretation. There are certainly other verses, less under debate, that I could have use, but I used this one to expose you. I rest my case. - Christenstein
Do you ever use any logic?

Tylonius

06-23-07, 03:54 PM

Why does it seem that the most fervent believers of any religion also tend to be the least informed about that religion?

First of all, what everyone is talking about is the religion –*and god – of Abraham. Islam is the progression of Christianity, which is the progression of Judaism. As Louis Farrakahn eloquently puts it, to be a Muslim is to also be a Christian and a Jew. The Qu'ran is essentially the "third testament" of a larger story, one that all centers around the same god.

The relationship is not unlike the one various sects of Christianity share. Catholics and Baptists are both considered to be Christians, despite the fact that in many ways, they are mutually exclusive of one another.

Secondly, I wish all of these so-called Christians would read their bibles. Not just the cherry-picked parts spoon-fed to them by others, but the whole thing, cover to cover (it's shorter than the new Harry Potter book). Jesus does not claim to be God, and the notion that they, along with the Holy Ghost, are one in the Trinity is not the same thing as being "one in the same."

In addition to reading the bible, most Christians could stand to read the history of their bible,so that they may understand the differences between their version and others (and yes, there are many). Perhaps then, they would understand concepts like the fact that Mary Magdalene was also called Mariam.

Finally, open your minds just a bit. You don't really think your god gave you an amazing brain just so you could think small with it, do you? Embrace the idea that maybe evolution is how creation happened.

Consider that the books were written (and edited repeatedly) by men, so maybe the whole thing in Leviticus about homosexuality being an abomination is no more valid than the parts about shaving, shrimp, working on Saturday or women leaving the house when they have their periods being equally abominable.

Instead of constantly looking for ways to divide us from one another (which thoroughly misses the point of both Christianity and Islam), embrace the similarities, of which there are clearly more than you think. Primarily: I and my father are one, as are we all, and the kingdom of heaven is inside of us.

So yes, Sandy, to get back to your question from twelve pages ago, you can be both and without contradiction; or at least no more than you'll find within your own religion.

TruthSeeker

06-24-07, 12:54 PM

:bravo:

Welcome :)

sandy

06-24-07, 12:57 PM

Why does it seem that the most fervent believers of any religion also tend to be the least informed about that religion?

First of all, what everyone is talking about is the religion �*and god � of Abraham. Islam is the progression of Christianity, which is the progression of Judaism. As Louis Farrakahn eloquently puts it, to be a Muslim is to also be a Christian and a Jew. The Qu'ran is essentially the "third testament" of a larger story, one that all centers around the same god.

The relationship is not unlike the one various sects of Christianity share. Catholics and Baptists are both considered to be Christians, despite the fact that in many ways, they are mutually exclusive of one another.

Secondly, I wish all of these so-called Christians would read their bibles. Not just the cherry-picked parts spoon-fed to them by others, but the whole thing, cover to cover (it's shorter than the new Harry Potter book). Jesus does not claim to be God, and the notion that they, along with the Holy Ghost, are one in the Trinity is not the same thing as being "one in the same."

In addition to reading the bible, most Christians could stand to read the history of their bible,so that they may understand the differences between their version and others (and yes, there are many). Perhaps then, they would understand concepts like the fact that Mary Magdalene was also called Mariam.

Finally, open your minds just a bit. You don't really think your god gave you an amazing brain just so you could think small with it, do you? Embrace the idea that maybe evolution is how creation happened.

Consider that the books were written (and edited repeatedly) by men, so maybe the whole thing in Leviticus about homosexuality being an abomination is no more valid than the parts about shaving, shrimp, working on Saturday or women leaving the house when they have their periods being equally abominable.

Instead of constantly looking for ways to divide us from one another (which thoroughly misses the point of both Christianity and Islam), embrace the similarities, of which there are clearly more than you think. Primarily: I and my father are one, as are we all, and the kingdom of heaven is inside of us.

So yes, Sandy, to get back to your question from twelve pages ago, you can be both and without contradiction; or at least no more than you'll find within your own religion.

No, sock puppet. Most of what you said is not true. :rolleyes:

Kadark

06-24-07, 12:59 PM

sandy: Where is he wrong?

sandy

06-24-07, 01:03 PM

Paragraph three was the only correct one. I don't feel like dissecting the sock puppet's post. Not worth my time.:rolleyes:

Kadark

06-24-07, 01:05 PM

Well, if you aren't going to take the time to say why he or she is wrong, then you might as well keep perfectly silent.

And why do you call him or her 'sock puppet'?

(Q)

06-24-07, 01:14 PM

Paragraph three was the only correct one. I don't feel like dissecting the sock puppet's post. Not worth my time.:rolleyes:

Then, you are only here to preach your version of the gospel. That is certainly not worth anyones time.

Orleander

06-24-07, 01:15 PM

oooo, sandy got served!
EXCELLENT post Tylonius!

TruthSeeker

06-24-07, 01:55 PM

Will she ever listen to anyone?

Oh God! Why do You create people like sandy!?

Tylonius

06-24-07, 02:53 PM

As usual, when members of the radical right �*and I believe it is safe to call Sandy's perspectives radical �*find their unsupported views challenged, they respond by attacking the challenger.

It's also ironic that she chooses to call me a "sock puppet." I believe that mindlessly mouthing the views of others, with no thought of one's own, better describes her postings than mine.

However, if she would like to refute any part of my post, I welcome the discussion. I am certainly not above the notion that I may be wrong about something. She'll have to do better than just calling me names, though �*she'll have to actually prove it.

S.A.M.

06-24-07, 02:55 PM

Tylonius

06-24-07, 03:34 PM

Nice to meet you too.

Thanks!

Nice to meet everyone.

TruthSeeker

06-24-07, 03:35 PM

It's also ironic that she chooses to call me a "sock puppet." I believe that mindlessly mouthing the views of others, with no thought of one's own, better describes her postings than mine.
A "sock puppet" is, basically, someone that registers with two names and talks with himself to prove his point.

Just friendly letting you know the rules of this madhouse... :D

ashura

06-24-07, 03:36 PM

Thanks!

Nice to meet everyone.

I liked your post Tylonius, but I have some questions about it. For one, the idea of invalidating a part of the Bible, or the Quran. If you can invalidate one part on a whim, simply because it was written by men, what stops you from invalidating the entire thing?

Tylonius

06-24-07, 04:32 PM

If you can invalidate one part on a whim, simply because it was written by men, what stops you from invalidating the entire thing?

We aren't invalidating anything.

The point I was trying to make was that it was written by men, and even devout and conscientious men are fallible and make mistakes in copying and translating. Others are susceptible to temptations of power �*and what's more powerful than having some control over what a bible says?

So maybe we shouldn't try to be so literal, and instead try to glean the meaning.

Take Leviticus, for example. It is the foundation of Mosaic and Davidic law. It not only concerns ritual laws, but also establishes guidelines of health, hygiene and public welfare. At the time, these were very important rules. An outbreak of mildew or dysentery in a desert community would be devastating. Rabbis were trained to address such problems, and the people were directed to take specific steps to avoid them.

However, much of Mosaic and Davidic law has been since disregarded as "obsolete," and rightly so. Improvements in civilization, agriculture, architecture, sanitation and the like have made calling a rabbi when you have mildew in your bathtub no longer necessary. But the spirit of the law remains: It is your responsibility to show your god your appreciation by taking care of your health, home and community.

That's why reading the whole thing, not just the bumper stickers, is so important.

The people that truly invalidate the christian bible are the "cafeteria christians," of which there are many. They want to be free of 90% of the canon of Mosaic law �*from which antinomianism frees them entirely, anyway �*yet cling to the remaining 10% that they believe validates their bigotry.

ashura

06-24-07, 04:57 PM

We aren't invalidating anything.

The point I was trying to make was that it was written by men, and even devout and conscientious men are fallible and make mistakes in copying and translating. Others are susceptible to temptations of power �*and what's more powerful than having some control over what a bible says?

So maybe we shouldn't try to be so literal, and instead try to glean the meaning.

Take Leviticus, for example. It is the foundation of Mosaic and Davidic law. It not only concerns ritual laws, but also establishes guidelines of health, hygiene and public welfare. At the time, these were very important rules. An outbreak of mildew or dysentery in a desert community would be devastating. Rabbis were trained to address such problems, and the people were directed to take specific steps to avoid them.

However, much of Mosaic and Davidic law has been since disregarded as "obsolete," and rightly so. Improvements in civilization, agriculture, architecture, sanitation and the like have made calling a rabbi when you have mildew in your bathtub no longer necessary. But the spirit of the law remains: It is your responsibility to show your god your appreciation by taking care of your health, home and community.

That's why reading the whole thing, not just the bumper stickers, is so important.

The people that truly invalidate the christian bible are the "cafeteria christians," of which there are many. They want to be free of 90% of the canon of Mosaic law �*from which antinomianism frees them entirely, anyway �*yet cling to the remaining 10% that they believe validates their bigotry.

So then isn't what you're doing simply invalidating the literal while trying to keep the spirit?

I understand the reasons, you don't have to repeat them. But I don't understand why you wouldn't call it invalidating.

TruthSeeker

06-24-07, 04:59 PM

Tylonius,

What do you think about rituals? Do you find them obcessive? Are they completely useless?

Tylonius

06-24-07, 09:26 PM

So then isn't what you're doing simply invalidating the literal while trying to keep the spirit?

Think of it this way: In 1543, Nicolaus Copernicus published De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres), which sparked a revolution of science and the birth of modern astronomy. It also set the church on its ear, because religious dogma at the time maintained that the earth was the center of the universe. It even said so in the bible (Old Testament - Joshua and Ecclisiastes). To say that the earth revolved around the sun was blasphemy.

The fact that they were wrong didn't invalidate their belief, it just meant that they were wrong.

Moreover, it cleared the way for immanence, which is now a major tenet of both the Christian and Muslim faith (among others). It represented a major shift in Christianity from keeping their god at arms length to embracing him in all things.

Again, that change didn't invalidate their beliefs at all. It merely represented their evolution.

Finally, and most ironically, it later turned out that practically all of the details of Copernicus' observations were wrong. But you know, the earth still revolves around the sun, regardless.

Tylonius

06-24-07, 09:38 PM

What do you think about rituals? Do you find them obcessive? Are they completely useless?

That depends on your faith, I suppose.

Personally, I don't go in for them, but I can see why others do.

Wisdom_Seeker

06-25-07, 09:42 AM

I liked your post Tylonius, but I have some questions about it. For one, the idea of invalidating a part of the Bible, or the Quran. If you can invalidate one part on a whim, simply because it was written by men, what stops you from invalidating the entire thing?

This seems to be a very popular question, I even found myself wondering about the same question many years ago� I think you should look at the Bible the same way you look at nature, or how you look at a woman in a relationship�
If you look at other people with a preconceived judgment, then you are focusing on the bad aspects of their personality from your perspective. And if you think about it, most people do this, focus on the �bad things� of others according to your standards. This is hypocrisy.
If you keep this mentality of focusing on what you think is evil or wrong, then you will definitely miss the most important part of the person�s personality. You fail to see yourself in the position of others.
If you keep focusing on what you think is �wrong or bad� on your partner, then you are trapped in the cage of your own judgments.

We need to learn to see the beauty in everything, in every living creature, see the good side of everyone�s personality; then you learn to have true love and compassion without discrimination. This is important for reading any book, and then it doesn�t matter if you read the Bible, the Koran or a normal novel, you can learn from everything if you look at it with compassionate eyes.

S.A.M.

06-25-07, 09:47 AM

If you look at other people with a preconceived judgment, then you are focusing on the bad aspects of their personality from your perspective. And if you think about it, most people do this, focus on the “bad things” of others according to your standards. This is hypocrisy.
If you keep this mentality of focusing on what you think is evil or wrong, then you will definitely miss the most important part of the person’s personality. You fail to see yourself in the position of others.
If you keep focusing on what you think is “wrong or bad” on your partner, then you are trapped in the cage of your own judgments.

We need to learn to see the beauty in everything, in every living creature, see the good side of everyone’s personality; then you learn to have true love and compassion without discrimination. This is important for reading any book, and then it doesn’t matter if you read the Bible, the Koran or a normal novel, you can learn from everything if you look at it with compassionate eyes.

I agree with your sentiments. Now if only more people could see it this way. :shrug:

Tylonius

06-25-07, 11:37 AM

Hear, hear, Wisdom_Seeker!

ashura

06-25-07, 08:05 PM

Think of it this way: In 1543, Nicolaus Copernicus published De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres), which sparked a revolution of science and the birth of modern astronomy. It also set the church on its ear, because religious dogma at the time maintained that the earth was the center of the universe. It even said so in the bible (Old Testament - Joshua and Ecclisiastes). To say that the earth revolved around the sun was blasphemy.

The fact that they were wrong didn't invalidate their belief, it just meant that they were wrong.

Moreover, it cleared the way for immanence, which is now a major tenet of both the Christian and Muslim faith (among others). It represented a major shift in Christianity from keeping their god at arms length to embracing him in all things.

Again, that change didn't invalidate their beliefs at all. It merely represented their evolution.

Finally, and most ironically, it later turned out that practically all of the details of Copernicus' observations were wrong. But you know, the earth still revolves around the sun, regardless.

I didn't mention invalidating their belief which I'm sure remained strong as ever. I mentioned invalidating a part of the Bible. If you can so easily render obsolete one part, you can do the same for any part of it, or even the whole, no?

This seems to be a very popular question, I even found myself wondering about the same question many years ago� I think you should look at the Bible the same way you look at nature, or how you look at a woman in a relationship�
If you look at other people with a preconceived judgment, then you are focusing on the bad aspects of their personality from your perspective. And if you think about it, most people do this, focus on the �bad things� of others according to your standards. This is hypocrisy.
If you keep this mentality of focusing on what you think is evil or wrong, then you will definitely miss the most important part of the person�s personality. You fail to see yourself in the position of others.
If you keep focusing on what you think is �wrong or bad� on your partner, then you are trapped in the cage of your own judgments.

We need to learn to see the beauty in everything, in every living creature, see the good side of everyone�s personality; then you learn to have true love and compassion without discrimination. This is important for reading any book, and then it doesn�t matter if you read the Bible, the Koran or a normal novel, you can learn from everything if you look at it with compassionate eyes.

You start off with preconceived judgment. What is it that makes you think I have this when I look at the Bible? I read, and then I create an opinion. Not the other way around.

And I'm a little confused here. Are you telling me to ignore the bad for the good then, when it comes to the Bible or the Quran?

WildBlueYonder

06-25-07, 10:34 PM

Lingual differences do not equal different God and prophets. Arabic is related to Hebrew and Aramaic as a semitic language. Because we call Jesus Isa (peace be to him) and Elohim, Allah swt, this does not mean we mean different things.
ahhh, my little friend, you are so wrong, your assumption is that cognates = each other. but they sometimes drift apart, you see if you understood the mormon concept of god, Jesus, heaven, etc...., they would be different in many ways, same word, different meanings, its like a jargon

http://spanish.about.com/cs/vocabulary/g/cognategloss.htm

Definition: In a technical sense, two words that have a common origin are cognates. Most often, cognates are words in two languages that have a common etymology and thus are similar or identical. For example, the English "kiosk" and the Spanish quiosco are cognates because they both come from the Turkish kosk.
�

Examples: Cognate pairs with similar meanings number in the thousands and include "azure"/azul, "committee"/comit� and "morphine"/morfina. Spanish cognates that are false friends include asistir (which usually means "to attend," not "to assist"), contestar (which usually means "to answer," not "to contest") and sano (which usually means "healthy" rather than "sane").

which brings us to islam; question, does allah have daughters? in mormon belief, Jesus & satan are spirit brothers, conceived by Elohim, having sex with the mother goddess, isn't that how allah got his daughters?

http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/vale.htm

However the deep association with astral worship is still represented by the star and crescent of Islam, the astral symbols prefigured in the perennial ubiquitous symbolic relationship between the crescent moon of Nannar or Sin the moon god and Venus the evening star of Inanna, Ishtar and al-Uzza, who is also a moon goddess, spanning much of Mesopotamian and Arabic culture and history. The source of these traditions originates in two �high� cultures, one in Southern Arabia, and the other in what is now Jordan.
�

In Mecca, Allah was originally paired with his �daughters� - the banat al-Lah. Briffault notes: �This Arabian goddess was triune, being also known as the three Holy Virgins�. The Manat consisted of al-Lat �the goddess�, Q're (possibly Kore) the Virgin, and al-Uzza the �powerful one�. Al-Uzza was the moon. Manat was bringer of good and bad luck, just as the fates, and the Arabic term mana. He claims al Uzza was also worshipped at Mecca:

�Al-Kindy says that Al-Uzza was the moon, her chief shrine being the Ka�aba at Mecca, where she was worshipped in the form of a sacred stone, ... the very stone which the pilgrims to this day visit Mecca to kiss. In doing so the pilgrims recite Caliph Omar's warning declaration: �I know well that you are a stone that can neither do good nor evil, and unless I had seen the prophet, on whom be prayer and the blessings of god kiss you, I would not kiss you�.�( R76v3)

what does all this prove?
that allah was a pagan god, that was sanitized by Mohammad into a more monotheistic model for islam, but it kept many of the pre-islamic rituals, I mean, why change them? you already have a changed, cleaned up god