some believe in it some are masters of it some believe it dosent exist some believe it is almost magic. i teach tai chi i know of its existance, yet western people are ignorant to even learn of its nature question 1 is what is your opinion about chi (Qi) question 2 is if your a sceptic why dont you open your mind, if you only trust what science hands you (bearing in mind every century we find out science was wrong about yet another thing) chi can be detected using heat sensors and no it isnt just random heat blotches coincidentaly moving where the tai chi master tells you he will move the focus of chi to.

if you say well why cant we see or hear it, ok then.

you cant see the wind but yet its powerfull.
you cant hear a rock.
you can feel still air.

you can feel chi (Qi) you just cant see it dont ask me why i cant tell you that. we cant see wind either but its there. what is the thing that makes up 99.9% of the universe and can travel through any solid object like its not there ?

thats right

There is no thing that makes up 99.9% of the Universe.
We have matter and dark matter. Dark matter being stuff that does not emit any light or other radiation. And dark matter (an estimated 85% of the mass in the observable universe) itself can be many kinds of matter combined.
Then there is also anti-matter, but it's roughly identical to matter, just with a negative charge.

On chi I have no oppinion and no need for it.

what is the thing that makes up 99.9% of the universe and can travel through any solid object like its not there ?

Thought, it actually makes up 100 percent of the universe because without it, the universe wouldn't be known at all. By the way rocks talk for if you really pay attention to them they can tell you their age, types and classifications.

Avatar, there is no such thing as "Dark matter", it's just invented by stupid physicists who couldn't completely understand magnetism (the only force). Neither is there any "antimatter"

~ The 40,000 year old semi-intelligent biased pseudo-Christian New age Atheist from Lemuria

If there is no anti-matter then why are we able to manufacture it? :bugeye:
Dark matter is just uncounted for matter in the universe, and because we don't see it (we know where it is), it does not emit radiation. Dark matter is detected only because of the gravitational pull it has on visable matter.
As for physicists, I rather trust world class cosmologists with lot of work behind them than some net entity by the alias of c7ityi_ who might as well be a 12 year old kid.

Physics were obliged to invent "anti-matter" to maintain the coherence of their theories, in order to ensure the balance of the whole mass of the universe. Dark matter was invented the same way.

When we know that all particles are magnetic, there is no need to invent anything hypothetical to make theories consistent. "Matter" contains its own counterpart, since it constitutes, within itself, the opposition of two principles. "Anti-matter" is within "matter" itself.

Atoms behave exactly like stars and planets, but they cannot be observed without interception.


Dark matter is just uncounted for matter in the universe, and because we don't see it (we know where it is), it does not emit radiation.

"Dark matter" isn't matter, it is a force!


As for physicists, I rather trust world class cosmologists with lot of work behind them than some net entity by the alias of c7ityi_ who might as well be a 12 year old kid.

Sad for you. As for me, I only trust what is true. It is stupid to believe in false things. How stupid to think that world class cosmologists know more about the nature of reality than a 12 year old kid.

~ The Indigo Colored Cat

Qi is actually gaining ground in the western world but it is hard for it to find a root here until it is really well understood. It has been reasoned out to be, in essence, bioelectricity and that has allowed a combination of both eastern and western medicine to study from a scientific standpoint. The problem it originally had was that a lot of it seemed sort of unrealistic in the terms eastern practitioners had formed it, even though the correlations they made did prove true.

A good example of this is the concept of Original Jing. Traditionally this is your pre-birth essence given to you by your parents; it is located in your kidneys and must be guarded and harnessed. Through modern medicine we can look at this and realize that Original Jing is actually your hormones, many of which are created in the glands that sit atop your kidneys after they are triggered by your pituitary gland. Having good control over these glands allows you to step up your metabolism on command and thus harness your Qi (bioelectricity) production.

Realizations like this will over time not only bring eastern medicine the respect it deserves but will also hopefully allow it to continue it’s 4000 year history of continual refinement. Until the first few crucial steps are taken however it’s not going to be fully accepted. It takes years of Qigong to reach a point where you know for a fact that there is more to Qi then meets the eye, and in general proof that takes each person years to find isn’t going to be accepted.

Chi can be experienced in a moment. Preparation for that moment is what takes time. Time not to learn, but to un-learn.

However, focusing on Chi is focusing on a side-effect of awakening, like ghost-hunting, and clairvoiance, it is a way of getting lost...

Someone who finds Chi is on a longer path, and not there yet... whatever can be named is not IT. Don't settle for less than IT. Chi ain't IT. Just a sign-post along the road....

Hey, there is a guy called Wilhelm Reich, who "discovered" something called Orgone energy which is very similar to what people call chi, most Scientists DO NOT accept his theories, here is what he said about Orgone (chi):
- It is mass free & pre-atomic
- It is present everywhere
- It is the medium for electromagnetic and gravitational phenomena
- It is in constant motion
- It "contradicts" the law of entropy.

Wilhelm Reich was a student of Sigmund Freud and presented his Theories to Einstein but Einstein disagreed with him. He said there's two different type of Orgone Energies, a life giving one (good), and deadly one (bad)

He also made something called a "Orgone Accumulator" which is a device that accumulates Qi (Orgone) to an area. Though scientists disagree with him, they cannot explain why plants grow faster in orgone accumulators

http://www.orgonics.com/graphics/sprouts.jpg

Unfortunately the FDA burned his works for some reason ( :confused: )

thats interesting i have a natural Orgone accumilator (myself) maybe i should practise taiji neer my weed plants and see if i get some good fast shit.

avatar you have no need for Qi (chi)? you do realise that you depend on it right? like you depend on oxygen.

you do realise that you depend on it right? like you depend on oxygen.


No. But I do depend on myself, like I depend on oxygen.

- Shifty Russian
www.WhoMakesYouSick.com

No. But I do depend on myself, like I depend on oxygen.

- Shifty Russian
www.WhoMakesYouSick.com


Like all the other mystical philosophies, it contains afew useful grains of truth.

However, just how useful is it in the long run? Show me something important that it has produced compared to the traditional scientific approach. Anything. (Not directed at you, Shifty Russian, but rather the "Chi Master" and anyone else who has bought into it.)

Hello all.

Isn't accupuncture supposed to be all about the 'flow' of 'qi' along certain meridians along the body? Thorough testing has shown that all 'effects' of accupuncture are placebo. All placebo. 'Placebo' is not a 'dirty word' when your pain is diminishing or gone. Mind!

If 'believing' in 'qi', 'god', 'spirit guides', 'orgone', 'goddesses, 'aluminum-foil hats', 'Atlantean warrior chanelling', or any of a vast panoply of personally meaningful mytho-logical 'exteriorizations', can assist in accessing the deeper 'places within', granting us the 'value' thereof (pain reduction, enhanced healing, energy, focus and health...) then I ask, why not?
Physics must and will expand to include Consciousness, or suffocate in paradox.

People seem to have the need to 'externalize' that which is within. Perhaps not 'need', perhaps one just 'believes' in an 'out there'. 'Access' (coding) to the 'inner depths' can take many 'non-rational' (NOT 'irrational') forms. I guess that the 'proof is in the pudding'! If whatever you use, mantra, prayer, candles, equations, logic, poetry, entheogens, ritual, 'faith-in-whatever'... works, then wheres the problem? All is well.

'Master' one thing, and one Masters everything.
Master 'qi', (or 'ritual', or 'flower arranging'...) whether this access key is valid for anyone else or not is irrelevent, it is 'real' enough for the 'practitioner' to be able to Master, thus Mastering 'self'.


It IS Magic when one deliberately, 'volitionally', accesses/programs the 'depths' (of Mind, within which are all things) and 'emerges' into the 'desired' moment.. Seemingly 'creating' it, but not so. Just emerging Willfully as Consciousness into the already, simultaneously existing Moment.

Hello all.

Isn't accupuncture supposed to be all about the 'flow' of 'qi' along certain meridians along the body? Thorough testing has shown that all 'effects' of accupuncture are placebo. All placebo. 'Placebo' is not a 'dirty word' when your pain is diminishing or gone. Mind!

If 'believing' in 'qi', 'god', 'spirit guides', 'orgone', 'goddesses, 'aluminum-foil hats', 'Atlantean warrior chanelling', or any of a vast panoply of personally meaningful mytho-logical 'exteriorizations', can assist in accessing the deeper 'places within', granting us the 'value' thereof (pain reduction, enhanced healing, energy, focus and health...) then I ask, why not?
Physics must and will expand to include Consciousness, or suffocate in paradox.

People seem to have the need to 'externalize' that which is within. Perhaps not 'need', perhaps one just 'believes' in an 'out there'. 'Access' (coding) to the 'inner depths' can take many 'non-rational' (NOT 'irrational') forms. I guess that the 'proof is in the pudding'! If whatever you use, mantra, prayer, candles, equations, logic, poetry, entheogens, ritual, 'faith-in-whatever'... works, then wheres the problem? All is well.

'Master' one thing, and one Masters everything.
Master 'qi', (or 'ritual', or 'flower arranging'...) whether this access key is valid for anyone else or not is irrelevent, it is 'real' enough for the 'practitioner' to be able to Master, thus Mastering 'self'.


It IS Magic when one deliberately, 'volitionally', accesses/programs the 'depths' (of Mind, within which are all things) and 'emerges' into the 'desired' moment.. Seemingly 'creating' it, but not so. Just emerging Willfully as Consciousness into the already, simultaneously existing Moment.

Your statements are only partially true. For instance, a Study done shows that accupunture is more than placebo (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4493011.stm)

Also, have you looked into Wilhelm Reich's experiments, can a placebo really explain why bean sprouts grow 3x faster in orgone accumulators? Unless you are to assume that bean sprouts believe in chi (orgone) energy which causes them to grow faster.

Also much of this is what people consider a placebo. Why? Because Qi is controlled by Yi (intent). Chi moves by intent.

Your statements are only partially true. For instance, a Study done shows that accupunture is more than placebo (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4493011.stm)
Hello Vital.
Sorry, my statements are as 'true' as I know for me, perhaps only partially true 'to you'? One can find support of ANYTHING somewhere on the net. Ultimately, one does believe what one will.


Also, have you looked into Wilhelm Reich's experiments, can a placebo really explain why bean sprouts grow 3x faster in orgone accumulators? Unless you are to assume that bean sprouts believe in chi (orgone) energy which causes them to grow faster.
Have you 'looked into' the QM understanding that the 'consciousness' of the experimenter affects the results? I think that Occam's razor trims away 'magical', 'unverifiable' so called 'causes' when the 'known' simple causes suffice (for the moment). Plants grow happier when they are sung to, prayed over, thought lovingly of, etc.. It is not necessarily the particular 'behavior' of the 'experimenter' in this instance, but that the 'experimenter' himself, his consciousness, is 'interacting' with the plant. Not the particular 'song', but the 'attitude' of the singer... One might as well say that when the experimenter sings to the plant, god comes from heaven and personally rubs up against the plant.. Occam would stop at the singing experimenter. A 'believer' will stop at god.


Also much of this is what people consider a placebo. Why? Because Qi is controlled by Yi (intent). Chi moves by intent.
Ahhh, like the 'ether' of the alchemists... Perhaps 'this' 'ether' will someday be 'evidenced'.

Bye the bye, personally, as far as I'm concerned, I do understand the concept of 'qi', but the jury is still out concerning the 'actuality' of the 'stuff'. I am well aware of the 'results' atributed to qi, but I am not convinced that the 'results' could not have another 'explanation'. Mind, for instance. Are you proposing that 'qi' is analogous with 'mind'?

Hello Vital.
Sorry, my statements are as 'true' as I know for me, perhaps only partially true 'to you'? One can find support of ANYTHING somewhere on the net. Ultimately, one does believe what one will.

It's not like I found it at some Quack site, it's a real study done. It's done from researchers from the University of London, Southampton University, and even Oxford. I think you saying one can find support of anything is just a sign that you can't accept that accupuncture is more than a placebo.



Have you 'looked into' the QM understanding that the 'consciousness' of the experimenter affects the results? I think that Occam's razor trims away 'magical', 'unverifiable' so called 'causes' when the 'known' simple causes suffice (for the moment). Plants grow happier when they are sung to, prayed over, thought lovingly of, etc.. It is not necessarily the particular 'behavior' of the 'experimenter' in this instance, but that the 'experimenter' himself, his consciousness, is 'interacting' with the plant. Not the particular 'song', but the 'attitude' of the singer... One might as well say that when the experimenter sings to the plant, god comes from heaven and personally rubs up against the plant.. Occam would stop at the singing experimenter. A 'believer' will stop at god.

It's a double-blind experiment. The experimenter's consciousness has little to do with the results. Also, Wilhelm Reich who was an actual scientist, student of Freud, and who spoke to Einstein saw Orgone (Qi) as an actual existant energy, that was pre-atomic. It isn't like God coming from heaven and rubbing against the plant. That's like saying the law of entropy is akin to the Gods shouting or some rubbish like that.



Ahhh, like the 'ether' of the alchemists... Perhaps 'this' 'ether' will someday be 'evidenced'.

Bye the bye, personally, as far as I'm concerned, I do understand the concept of 'qi', but the jury is still out concerning the 'actuality' of the 'stuff'. I am well aware of the 'results' atributed to qi, but I am not convinced that the 'results' could not have another 'explanation'. Mind, for instance. Are you proposing that 'qi' is analogous with 'mind'?
The Yi directs the Qi flowing throughout the body.

I wonder why much of the things said about Qi are true about the Orgone energy that Wilhelm Reich speaks about (like water having the strongest chi),

I wonder why Qigong practioners that tried healing cells increased their reproduction rate by over 30%. But then again, this all a "placebo" effect to you. That's like saying gravity existing is simply a placebo effect :rolleyes: Remember Wilhelm Reich was a psychology student of Freud well versed in the knowledge of the "placebo effect".

ok all i have to say is this, if you dont wanna know about Qi and live your life excluding its existance fair enough, but i havent met anyone in person who has said i dont believe in Qi after practising qi cultivation techniques with me or my master or anyone else. after you actually learn how to cultivate, direct, and strenthern qi from a real taiji or Qi gong master or practitioner, then you will realise there is alot more to everything in this world than what your eyes can see.


and about buying into things, this is a foolish thing to say, why do you assume everyone is western minded and hasnt been taught these things since an early age and grew up with it in there lives everyday.

It's not like I found it at some Quack site, it's a real study done. It's done from researchers from the University of London, Southampton University, and even Oxford. I think you saying one can find support of anything is just a sign that you can't accept that accupuncture is more than a placebo.
I have seen enough 'evidence' from all sides that I can say that I am withholding opinion. I feel that it might just be a case of the blind men and the elephant. Different 'perspectives' talking of the 'same effect'. I don't wish to be confrontational. What difference what I 'accept' or not? Is this a 'religion'? A 'cult'?
I learned all my life of the mythology of the Japanese katana (sword) doing all sorts of wondrous 'magical' feats. I heard the stories so much that I began to give them more credence than I aught. Experience, after 35 years as a bladesmith and a martial artist has shown me the 'metaphoric nature' of these 'claims'. Makes a nice story, though...
Like I said, there are all sorts of sites on the net, serious sites by serious people with serious thoughts and opinions. Read what you like and form your opinions. But I don't discard all opposing evidence should I choose to favor one side or the other.


It's a double-blind experiment. The experimenter's consciousness has little to do with the results. Also, Wilhelm Reich who was an actual scientist, student of Freud, and who spoke to Einstein saw Orgone (Qi) as an actual existant energy, that was pre-atomic.
WOW! An 'actual, for real, scientist?!?! The experimenter has a lot to do with the experiment. Look it up. This is basic stuff.
Bye the bye, what did Freud and Einstein have to say about his 'orgone'?? Do you know, since YOU brought them up for some reason?


I wonder why Qigong practioners that tried healing cells increased their reproduction rate by over 30%. But then again, this all a "placebo" effect to you.
That is well within placebo range. Dude, I didn't invent 'placebo'. 'I' have nothing to do with it. These are the studies that I have uncovered. I, on the other hand, have nothing that I am emotionally invested in that I feel the need to 'prove', or 'believe in'. I guess that the Samurai would have fought to the death to defend the precious reputation of their 'soul', their katana. And a 'practitioner' of Qi, or 'orgone' might tend to discount placebo effect in favor of validation of their 'beliefs'.


Remember Wilhelm Reich was a psychology student of Freud well versed in the knowledge of the "placebo effect".
I don't know what the 'student' was well versed in. I'm sure that you are much more knowledgeable regarding Reich's knowledge and understanding. Again, what did Freud have to say about his student's 'orgone theory'??

You know, you are responding to a bit of respectful healthy questioning and comment like a Xtian when someone says that they don't believe that Jezus actually existed in the flesh. I didn't 'attack' anything. All I said was that I didn't find enough evidence to become a 'believer'. Does that threaten your 'beliefs'? Is 'orgone' a 'belief'? Chi? I think that it is. Another metaphor from the mysterious inscrutable East that is so delicious to the palette, that critical thought is eventually discarded in favor of attempts to 'justify' one's beliefs.

ok all i have to say is this, if you dont wanna know about Qi and live your life excluding its existance fair enough, but i havent met anyone in person who has said i dont believe in Qi after practising qi cultivation techniques with me or my master or anyone else. after you actually learn how to cultivate, direct, and strenthern qi from a real taiji or Qi gong master or practitioner, then you will realise there is alot more to everything in this world than what your eyes can see.
I am very aware that there is so much 'more' than the senses are capable of perceiving. That is where I live! You make incorrect assumptions...
I have heard of Qi all my life. I have been a martial artist for many decades. I am 'denying' nothing. Until you offer 'evidence' that Chi is anything 'other' than .. Mind, for instance, you are simply noting a phenomenon and attributing it to this invisible 'stuff'. Like the deists. That seems, to me, rather arbitrary. On the other hand, Chi and Mind might simply be two perspectives of the same thing.

Whats with all the emotional responce here????
Methinks thou protesteth overmuch!


and about buying into things, this is a foolish thing to say, why do you assume everyone is western minded and hasnt been taught these things since an early age and grew up with it in there lives everyday.
I have been known to say foolish things before, and, no doubt, will again. Foolishness, like wisdom, is in the ear of the hearer.
Again you make spurious assumptions about me (where did 'I' personally come into this? Sheesh.. Does it always have to become 'personal'?) I have been a student and practitioner of the 'wisdom of the east' all my life.
I have managed to escape the cognitive fallacy traps, not simply 'believing' due to the repetitious nature of the 'stories' and the 'elements'. Much of the beautiful stories, after critical thought, seemed to be better viewed as 'beautiful metaphor' with many levels of understanding possible.

Thanx for the time.

yeah man i agree with what you said about taking certain things as beautiful metaphores i do the same myself, i dont take everything to litterally, again im not trying to make it personal sorry if i came off that way atall, but seriously Qi and the other energies ie jing, shen, yi, i can see where your going with it just bieng a notion of the mind and the effects are caused by ones intent and mind state etc, but theres just more to Qi than in the mind, the shaolin monks and Qi gong practitioners are a perfect example of this, i have studied shaolin gung fu and other martial arts since i was about 4 years old, and i dunno how to explain this but errm, Qi dosent seem so mystical and "out there" to me its just Qi like oxygen is oxygen or a tree is a tree, Qi is just another energy form that exists within us all, and western modern proof of Qi has been shown with freud;s apprentis or whatever he was, with the orgone accumilator ok before anyone talks further on Qi lets all discuss the works of freuds student and why his works got scraped? and why no1 can explain it but everyone is quick to dismiss this actual "evidence" of another energy effecting a living thing. i would like to hear people dismiss his works with the orgone energy, does anyone remember people dismissing other forces back in time? and thent hey are later proven, hey nearly every ancient civilisation recconised Qi and they had no communication with each other, the native americans, the indians, the japanese, the chinese, the mongolians, the tibetans, the thai people, the korean, and im sure many other cultures spoke of this "energy" form aswell, come on western people should look further into chi, but your western thinking tells you to dismiss anything that seems like magic or witchcraft, western science is quick to dismiss eastern thinking, but the day something has scientific proof for everyone to see, then its all back pedal back pedal back pedal, im not knocking science atall im just saying there is evidence of sorts in peoples faces wich tot his day goes unexplained, dosent it deserve a closer look?


peace

I have seen enough 'evidence' from all sides that I can say that I am withholding opinion. I feel that it might just be a case of the blind men and the elephant. Different 'perspectives' talking of the 'same effect'. I don't wish to be confrontational. What difference what I 'accept' or not? Is this a 'religion'? A 'cult'?
I learned all my life of the mythology of the Japanese katana (sword) doing all sorts of wondrous 'magical' feats. I heard the stories so much that I began to give them more credence than I aught. Experience, after 35 years as a bladesmith and a martial artist has shown me the 'metaphoric nature' of these 'claims'. Makes a nice story, though...
Like I said, there are all sorts of sites on the net, serious sites by serious people with serious thoughts and opinions. Read what you like and form your opinions. But I don't discard all opposing evidence should I choose to favor one side or the other.

Well I agree, it is all just one thing happening here.



WOW! An 'actual, for real, scientist?!?! The experimenter has a lot to do with the experiment. Look it up. This is basic stuff.
Bye the bye, what did Freud and Einstein have to say about his 'orgone'?? Do you know, since YOU brought them up for some reason?

Yeah a real western scientist, who ironically came up with the same notions Chinese and Indian philosophers did thousands of years ago. Don't you kind of find it ironic that Reich found a pre-atomic life energy which he called Orgone and that almost all of his observations of Orgone are also true about the Chinese Qi and Indian Prana? Could they be talking about the same energy?

I don't know what Freud said, but Einstein disagreed with him. He said the rise in temperature was due to heat convection, though he provided NO experimental data to back his claim up. Like I said in the beginning, almost NO modern physicists agrees with him. This due mainly to all of Reich's information and books being held until the year 2007 (in his will). Still in the books that are available ALL of Reich's experiments give similar results to what Reich describes.



That is well within placebo range. Dude, I didn't invent 'placebo'. 'I' have nothing to do with it. These are the studies that I have uncovered. I, on the other hand, have nothing that I am emotionally invested in that I feel the need to 'prove', or 'believe in'. I guess that the Samurai would have fought to the death to defend the precious reputation of their 'soul', their katana. And a 'practitioner' of Qi, or 'orgone' might tend to discount placebo effect in favor of validation of their 'beliefs'.

Japanese concepts differ greatly from Chinese concepts. For instance "Ki" and "Qi" are not the same. Ki has more to do with the spirit, where as Qi is just life energy.



I don't know what the 'student' was well versed in. I'm sure that you are much more knowledgeable regarding Reich's knowledge and understanding. Again, what did Freud have to say about his student's 'orgone theory'??

I don't know what Freud said, please tell me.



You know, you are responding to a bit of respectful healthy questioning and comment like a Xtian when someone says that they don't believe that Jezus actually existed in the flesh. I didn't 'attack' anything. All I said was that I didn't find enough evidence to become a 'believer'. Does that threaten your 'beliefs'? Is 'orgone' a 'belief'? Chi? I think that it is. Another metaphor from the mysterious inscrutable East that is so delicious to the palette, that critical thought is eventually discarded in favor of attempts to 'justify' one's beliefs.
No it doesn't threaten my belief at all. People already know that Qi exist, there is no question about this. I agree that criticial thought is indeed driven to justify one's belief.

But you know what? In QM Classical energy like kinetic, magnetism, electricity, etc...technically DON'T EXIST, they are just descriptions given by physicists (that's what Classical Physics is). One might say there is a force of magnetism when it is just the subatomic particles interacting - no new force, no separate energy. In the same way, Qi does and does not exist.

i can see where your going with it just bieng a notion of the mind and the effects are caused by ones intent and mind state etc, but theres just more to Qi than in the mind,
Perhaps my hang up here is that in my understanding/experience, all that we perceive, all that we can conceive, every notion, everything about self and other and community and matter and energy and universe exist solely in 'Mind'. We can never actually know if there is ever really anything actually in front of one's nose. All we can know is what is within Mind. All the awesome power of the universe, of every sun, every manifestation of energy, everything... is within Mind. A 'holo-dream'. So, when I 'equate' Qi with mind, I am NOT dismissing it, nor am I belittling it. Mastering Chi could well be mastering Mind and thusly is Everything Mastered.


..does anyone remember people dismissing...
'Things', 'assertions', 'hypotheses', 'notions'... are generally dismissed in the scientific community if there can be found no evidence in support of 'something's existence' in the first place. If evidence is found to support 'something', then hypotheses are formed, and the fine dance of (attempted) destruction of said hypotheses is performed. If one cannot reasonably demolish either part or all of the hypothesis, then it is temporarily tenuously accepted. Science is limited to the 'natural' world. Perhaps chi and orgone are 'supernatural'?? But the 'dismissal' is almost certainly due to lack of 'evidence' or phenomena not already 'explained' more simply or efficiently. Though I try to never 'dismiss' anything just out of hand due to the multitudinous times that I have been incorrect in doing so. I am 100% sure of nothing. (Well, perhaps 99.98332..% sure that I'm 100% sure of nothing..) Nothing! So, there is always a statistical probability of the 'existence' of 'anything', including flying pink elephants.


...hey nearly every ancient civilisation recconised Qi and they had no communication with each other,..
Well, if all is truly within Mind, and there is ultimately only 'One', then it is reasonable that similar 'constructs' and 'notions', 'mythologies', are found in (apparently) diverse places and times, as there is really no one that has absolutely no 'communication' with EVERYONE else who ever lived or will live or is living anywhere! (We all just have slightly varying 'perspectives', some 'slighter' some less 'slight'! *__-)

I don't know what Freud said, please tell me.
To his 'special' student Wilhelm Reich, upon being informed of Reich's hypothesis of 'orgone', Freud was overheard to say,
"Villie, you zound like ze schmuck, now zhut up und get me another cup of coffee und a zeegar! Vait 'till Albert hears ziz von! Hahahahaha..."



..that critical thought is eventually discarded in favor of attempts to 'justify' one's beliefs. ”


I agree that criticial thought is indeed driven to justify one's belief.
No, I don't think that communication shall be achieved this time around...


People already know that Qi exist, there is no question about this.
Which people? You imply all? Is it the "people" who 'already know that Qi exists' that have 'no question'? Or, perhaps, there is 'no question' that 'people already know that Qi exists'? I think you are speaking for yourself, so...

Since you admit to having "no question" about Qi, you brand yourself a 'zealot', a 'fanatic', a 'true believer'... with whom, experience has demonstrated to me, it is almost impossible to maintain an intelligent, civil, respectful conversation. So, with respect, I'm afraid that I must 'duck' this one, here, with you. Perhaps under different circumstances... My apologies.

nameless,

I'm not a fanatic, it's just obvious that Qi exists. I mean, it exist just as much as magnetism or kinetic energy (which are just different descriptions of the one energy). That's like saying that if you think there is a such thing as magnetism are you a fanatic.

People with new radical theories are always laughed at throughout history for their new ideas. It's no surprise Freud did the same.

Can you explain why Wilhelm Reich's observations about Orgone almost always match what the Chinese say about Qi? For instance, both Reich and the Chinese say that this energy is life energy and present in all living things, an imbalance in the energy causes sickness, and the most remarkable is that Reich observed that water has the strongest orgone, ironically the Chinese say that water has very strong Qi. Is this just a coincidence? Perhaps they were observing the same energy.

Also, why do all of the experiments Reich mentions in his book work? Why did the FDA and the court silence Reich without providing any evidence that orgone didn't exist, and without allowing Reich to prove that orgone does exist?

qi energy is finally starting to get good recognition in the west, this is a very good thing i really do hope that western science acknowledges its benifits and powers, because i believe if you combine the science and tech of the west, with the ancient healing and energy strenthening of the east, we could form a really good balence and maybe cure some of the things that niether can cure on its own, does anybody think a fusion of eastern and western healing could benifit our society?


and about qi existing could everyone who hasnt practised any qi gong or taiji/bagua, please actually try it, im not trying to preach but it really does help in nearly every aspect of your life, give it a try please and just judge it after you give it a good shot?.

qi energy is finally starting to get good recognition in the west, this is a very good thing i really do hope that western science acknowledges its benifits and powers, because i believe if you combine the science and tech of the west, with the ancient healing and energy strenthening of the east, we could form a really good balence and maybe cure some of the things that niether can cure on its own, does anybody think a fusion of eastern and western healing could benifit our society?


and about qi existing could everyone who hasnt practised any qi gong or taiji/bagua, please actually try it, im not trying to preach but it really does help in nearly every aspect of your life, give it a try please and just judge it after you give it a good shot?.
The Western Technology (like orgone generators, and things like that) combined with Eastern practice, exercise, and wisdom would probably allow every known disease to be cured. But why would the FDA want this? Their corporation would crumble, they would lose billions. And if the FDA loses billions, the American economy would fall. It seems like something neither the government nor the FDA would want to happen.

And I agree, even if you don't believe in Qi at all (no belief is required), Qigong/Taiji/Bagua or any other internal art truly does help you.

My friends, I am denying nothing.
All I am saying is, basically, what the fuk do I know?
Nothing! I find what 'works' and I use it. When it no longer works, I replace it with what does. The 'how' and 'what' is all speculation and hypothesis and arguement. All I 'know' is what works. Evidence. I can make things 'happen', more or less. The 'how' is again, hypothesis. I am a magician in a universe of Magic. My universe. My rules, my 'game'. I 'play'. YOU go figure out how it works!
What difference does it make what I 'believe'? I 'believe' nothing. I have no 'beliefs'. I don't know why, but when I share this truth about me there are many who want to argue with me, who call me a liar. Why?
I am not saying that Chi does not exist. I am simply saying that I may know 'it' by a different name, perhaps a different 'face'.
I have learned the 'internal arts'. They are all 'internal'. Arts of the Mind. They are all tools in my belt for accomplishing my 'Will'. There is no 'how' as far as I am concerned. 'That' they work is sufficient. The 'how' is all mental masturbation.
What else? What else?

And VitalOne, all I can say is 'time will tell'. I can tell you the articles that you will be reading in twenty years in the science magazines, but you will have to see for yourself. It is absolute surety that makes one a 'fanatic'.
I bid you good fortune and Truth.
Peace...

agreed about the FDA and government losing out, shame that greed stands in the way of progress but this wont stop small organisations trying this type of healing, we will get there in the end without government help,

and about qi, it dosent have to be called qi prana or anything else its just there no matter the name or face you associate with it, you dont have to believe its there but to truely master its abilitys then you would have to believe it to control it and direct it properly, but i agree with what you said,


peace

http://www.wofs.com/fsw.php?load=ar...&c=feng_shui_uk




http://www.matzkefamily.net/doug/papers/tucson2b.html



http://www.miqel.com/adepti/study-s...tal-energy.html



http://www.meaningoflife.i12.com/qi.htm

One dead link.
One 'down' link.
One copy of a 'Feng shui' magazine. Hang a plastic Buddha in the north window stuff...
And an interesting paper that says;

"The understanding that thoughts can direct and effect the flow of Chi, suggests that Chi, the mind, and consciousness are all intimately related. The understanding of this author is[2], if the mind is a non-local information field (rather than an energy field) then understanding more about Chi will lead us to better understanding about mind/consciousness, improved awareness, and improved health."

Have you read the whole paper that you linked to, EmptyForceOfChi? Do you agree with what it says? If the above excerpt is to your understanding as well as the author's, I'll comment.

My understanding of 'Reality' includes "'Mind'/'Chaos'/'Bindu'/the 'Void'/the 'quonton soup' *__-/..." and if you are saying that your Qi is 'that', than I can reconcile your 'qi' into my (understanding of) 'Reality'. In that case, mastering qi is the same as mastering Mind; and mastering Mind is the mastery of chi. Are we on the same page here?

The above excerpt is all I shall refer to at the moment as I saw much of the paper descend into the world of... feng shui... and 'homeopathetic nonsense'. For instance, he talks of the one and only russian dr to develop a Qi generator (without the use of crystals I assume). Well, if Qi = Mind (consisting of the 'quonton soup') then his little 'toy' must be quite remarkable indeed!!! Perhaps I have missed the issues of Scientific American, Discover, Science, OH! Wait <he added sarcastically> Feng Shui Today Magazine had something?? I would think that Nobel Prizes would be in order...

So, that is why I'll just speak to the above quoted excerpt, because it made sense to me. The first description that does.
One can possibly heal or kill with Mind, etc.. OK, so..
What do you think?

One dead link.
One 'down' link.
One copy of a 'Feng shui' magazine. Hang a plastic Buddha in the north window stuff...
And an interesting paper that says;

"The understanding that thoughts can direct and effect the flow of Chi, suggests that Chi, the mind, and consciousness are all intimately related. The understanding of this author is[2], if the mind is a non-local information field (rather than an energy field) then understanding more about Chi will lead us to better understanding about mind/consciousness, improved awareness, and improved health."

Have you read the whole paper that you linked to, EmptyForceOfChi? Do you agree with what it says? If the above excerpt is to your understanding as well as the author's, I'll comment.

My understanding of 'Reality' includes "'Mind'/'Chaos'/'Bindu'/the 'Void'/the 'quonton soup' *__-/..." and if you are saying that your Qi is 'that', than I can reconcile your 'qi' into my (understanding of) 'Reality'. In that case, mastering qi is the same as mastering Mind; and mastering Mind is the mastery of chi. Are we on the same page here?

The above excerpt is all I shall refer to at the moment as I saw much of the paper descend into the world of... feng shui... and 'homeopathetic nonsense'. For instance, he talks of the one and only russian dr to develop a Qi generator (without the use of crystals I assume). Well, if Qi = Mind (consisting of the 'quonton soup') then his little 'toy' must be quite remarkable indeed!!! Perhaps I have missed the issues of Scientific American, Discover, Science, OH! Wait <he added sarcastically> Feng Shui Today Magazine had something?? I would think that Nobel Prizes would be in order...

So, that is why I'll just speak to the above quoted excerpt, because it made sense to me. The first description that does.
One can possibly heal or kill with Mind, etc.. OK, so..
What do you think?

Qi != mind. The Indian scriptures state that Prana and Citta (consciousness) are like twins, good citta causes good prana, and good prana causes good citta. Also, you are thinking about the physical mind. Also, what is so shocking about a device like that?

From personal experience, I know Qi exists as something separate from the brain/mind, it behaves wave-like, yet it is greatly influenced by our thoughts,I'm still puzzled as to what it actually is. It obviously affects the physical world, but is mass-free and pre-atomic, the observer influences it greatly, it seems as if Qi is actually the energy of Yi, the energy of the observer, the energy of consciousness pervading the entire universe.

Qi != mind. The Indian scriptures state that Prana and Citta (consciousness) are like twins, good citta causes good prana, and good prana causes good citta.
I am tentatively equating Mind with QM's 'field of possibility/probability waves', the 'undifferentiated potential', the field of Chaos from which we pluck the 'stuff' of omniverse. If one can deliberately manipulate those 'waves', the results are similar enough to account for (most of) the claims of the Chi practitioner regarding arriving at the 'moment of desired results'.. Your 'scriptures' seem to support this hypothesis of mine.


Also, you are thinking about the physical mind.
No I am not. I have no experience of a 'physical mind'. Nor is one possible, I'd posit, according to my definition of Mind.


Also, what is so shocking about a device like that?
Nothing is 'shocking' to me anymore. But a 'physical gizmo' that pumps out those 'quantum information waves' would be rather WORLD SHAKING NEWS to the scientific community,
headline material in major papers and magazines. Perhaps this all happened while my family and I were busy 'raising' each other? If there is real research out there please point me toward it? Otherwise, the conversation will not suffer, IMHO, from deleting the 'Chi generator' from the table. Left bleeding on the floor, slashed by the 'famous razor'!


From personal experience, I know Qi exists as something separate from the brain/mind,
With all due respect, one can NEVER know if anything 'exists' seperate from 'mind'.


..it behaves wave-like,
Sure, if Mind = quantum posibility wave field then it stands to reason that it might have some 'wave-like' characteristics.


yet it is greatly influenced by our thoughts.
I guess that Mind can be influenced, but I'm not sure that simple 'thoughts' have enough 'energy' to really influence anything at that level. This is the level of Consciousness, of Intent, of Volition. 'Thoughts' are like 'wishes', shallow, weak and ineffective at effecting change in and of themselves. Put a body behind one, though, and there is a certain 'context' of effectiveness.


I'm still puzzled as to what it actually is
So is everyone else. No one knows. Perhaps it is what I have suggested. Perhaps not. If it does exist, my hypothesis can reasonably, and satisfying Occam's famous razor, accommodate Chi as 'Mind'.


It obviously affects the physical world, but is mass-free and pre-atomic, the observer influences it greatly,
Mind.


it seems as if Qi is actually the energy of Yi, the energy of the observer, the energy of consciousness pervading the entire universe.
I think you might have hit a 'home-run' here. Mind, being the 'energy' (I'm not sure that I like the term 'energy' as used here, but for the moment, I'll let it be..) of Consciousness, WITHIN WHICH resides the 'omniversal hologram' of which Consciousness is... Conscious!

Manipulating chi might be merely a 'directing of Conscious Awareness' to the 'moment of the desired result', 'existing' simultaneously with every other 'moment'. A 'moment' being the particular 'reality' of the collapsed 'info. wave', propagating in a fractal manner into all possible 'realities'. By manipulating the chi, you are not manipulating the 'moments', all 'moments' already exist, you are manipulating Conscious Awareness toward the 'moment of the desired results' (of the chi manipulation). When that happens, it is reasonable to 'feel' that you have actually 'done' something, as that is the perception...
and Ego begat 'life'...

On chi I have no oppinion and no need for it.

People are so funny. "I have no need for it". You got it whether you need it or not. If you say "I have no need for an appendix", you still have an appendix. It doesn't care what your brain has decided to believe in.

i beleave chi has alot to do with 9 either sence its detectable by heat sensors
and as u know us blacks was made from every gas there possably is in the universe and chinise ppl have 7 either so i think there using there iner soul to create phisical energy...there for there basicly using the same thing that helps ppl levitate ect...un like magic theres no smoke and mirrors white ppl cant understand the consept because there the newest and basicly have little to work with other then there brain...and no im not rascist its a fact that there the closest humans get to animals and us being the first on earth where-where it started at the people of the sun...

either is the only gas that can become fire,liquid,solid,and back to a gas so that may be the reason you body can become hard as steel when u master chi

i beleave chi has alot to do with 9 either sence its detectable by heat sensors WTF is 9 either sence?

and as u know us blacks was made from every gas there possably is in the universe
Please do elaborate on this rubbish.

and chinise ppl have 7 either
and this

so i think there using there iner soul to create phisical energy
Yeah? Define souls and describe how they create energy

...there for there basicly using the same thing that helps ppl levitate ect...
Gullibility is the only thing that helps people levitate

un like magic theres no smoke and mirrors white ppl cant understand the consept because there the newest and basicly have little to work with other then there brain
As opposed to those that have no brain to work with?

either is the only gas that can become fire,liquid,solid,and back to a gas so that may be the reason you body can become hard as steel when u master chi
Wrong. Either? Ether? Aether?

what is the thing that makes up 99.9% of the universe and can travel through any solid object like its not there ?
Lots of neutrinos? :D

but i know about either and i connected the dot from either to chi so maby im wrong...all i know is u got ya chi either is a million times stronger then any of that foolishness...lol white ppl have 0-6 either they gain 6 when they mate with a black person or any other race of the sun sept indians *NOT AMERICAN INDIANS* the ones across seas they have 0 either 2 spet they carry the trate of the jin that might come with powers or something too idk...
and 6 either is weak it dont go by numbers it goes by where you originated from and every one came about diffrent...thats y theres soo many diffrent gods and races.....so back to the chi its a fact that it exsists science cant explain every thing for example who is talking to you in your mind and how can you hear your self think with out using your ears...so every thing revolves around every thing science and spiritual goes hand and hand...

ok either is physical and spiritual either is what your soul is made of when u die it is all the gasses there possably is in the universe and it is able to turn solid,liquid, and back to gas it is the life esscence it is the most powerfull thing in exsistance here and in the after life im a student so i dont have all the answers...but i do know it higher in some rasces then others basiclly the only race that lacks either lacks melinin the other is where they came from and it gets too deeper to discuss but chi is a gass that every one has in them chi is what keeps the lesser light burning in every man you cant have a lesser light with out a soul but u can live with out one hint: ANIMALS....you can live with out either like every animal on earth accept the dolphin it has a soul...the reason white ppl lack chi is because they live on blood in some cases less there albinos then they will have 6 either that is y ppl say white is the generic race because in there natural form with out breeding they live on blood and spirit no either...and im not rascest i love white ppl there cool its just facts that no one will discuss.

chi-either- breath of life...

by living on blood i mean spirit that is why alcohol is called *gin* *jin*

i beleave chi has alot to do with 9 either sence its detectable by heat sensors
and as u know us blacks was made from every gas there possably is in the universe and chinise ppl have 7 either so i think there using there iner soul to create phisical energy...there for there basicly using the same thing that helps ppl levitate ect...un like magic theres no smoke and mirrors white ppl cant understand the consept because there the newest and basicly have little to work with other then there brain...and no im not rascist its a fact that there the closest humans get to animals and us being the first on earth where-where it started at the people of the sun...

i beleave chi has alot to do with 9 either sence its detectable by heat sensors
and as u know us blacks was made from every gas there possably is in the universe and chinise ppl have 7 either so i think there using there iner soul to create phisical energy...there for there basicly using the same thing that helps ppl levitate ect...un like magic theres no smoke and mirrors white ppl cant understand the consept because there the newest and basicly have little to work with other then there brain...and no im not rascist its a fact that there the closest humans get to animals and us being the first on earth where-where it started at the people of the sun...

No, you're not a racist, but you probably are very young. That on itself is not a problem, but please learn to write better, so that others can understand you better.
And please learn to think better, so that others have something to understand.

I suggest you look up critical thinking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

lol ill try but its facts u simply dont understand...;)

If you say so. But I doubt you have the capacity and the necessary information to judge my understanding.

lol y do you have the eye of horus? ur not egyption we are and thats where i got my info sumerian or egyptian culture ur not black......so just stop trying to comprehend something u dont under stand go try to fugure out your 4 thousand yeah old culture that leaches off every one else lol your dumb lil bible cam from egypt thats us bout time you figured out the world was not flat with monsters below lol it didnt say nuthing like that in egypt which has been here talkin bout being born yesterday...;)

Is is possible for you to spell properly? That's not english.

with all and all being said white ppl are leaches with no connection...fact.
your music stimed from devil worship lol and that shows your inside. music is an expression and thats what you express...junk

yeah my bad spellin is from being forced to speak a language i care nuthing of...lol but its all good.

No, your bad spelling stems from your lack on knowledge. Please go away from this discussion, because you are seriously derailing its quality for what it was.

and thats y u have hair like an animal cause ur the cursed seed you really have no reason descusing chi because u have none and it exsist and one more thing....u want a fact...your hair is the closest human hair gets to animal fur so who has ours? god and dont look around at chinise and spanish
chinise ppl hair is hollow urs is the only one that is close in comparison to animal fur thats y ur eyes is blue cause u are striped of every thing chi ect. no pigment your transparent....so stop leaching that goes for all yu monsters bush all of you...

yin and yang eather way black wins lol! we start it and we end it:D

the black space was here befor god i guess thats y we black...

the mind it self is one giant pool you just rent a space lol its all gods thats y every ones mind do the same thing look out ur eyes and keeps your body functioning. when a person is brain dead where u think hes living if hes still alive?

basiclly your mind is a giant stream and thats what runs everything its kind of gods computer for his creations with out your mind you will not exsist and you cant have a mind with out a soul because yur mind cant travle with out a host thats y its mind-body-and soul you think when your dead just like god thought of every thing he made this is y evil cant possably win because god can simply take your mind away when ever he chooses.

the reason theres evil is because its all a game ANU is just like a human with his own feelings and emotions on a greater scale so every one ill get theres in the end its just that he is taking for ever because ur kinda bitchin when things go wrong in your life because life is only 1 sec compaired to eternity.
there for the greatest scale of pain and suffering on earth is simply a boo boo.

so basicly kids do the darnest things and hes laffin at this foolishness cause its all good.

Rabbit wielding +3 Qi Pancake

http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~cojofl/pictures/Rabbit%20with%20a%20pancake%20on%20its%20head.jpg

by living on blood i mean spirit that is why alcohol is called *gin* *jin*

No, it's called "gin" because it derives from the Dutch word for juniper, which is what it was made from.

with all and all being said white ppl are leaches with no connection...fact.
your music stimed from devil worship lol and that shows your inside. music is an expression and thats what you express...junk

He's got you there. Heavy metal is devil worship music.

He also got you here

"thats y ur eyes is blue cause u are striped of every thing chi ect. no pigment your transparent."

Go look around. Lots of people around the world have very dark eyes. What is really funny is white people call them "dark beady eyes", as if it is a bad thing to be shunned, when in fact it is a sign of high level development. ;)

some believe in it some are masters of it some believe it dosent exist some believe it is almost magic. i teach tai chi i know of its existance, yet western people are ignorant to even learn of its nature question 1 is what is your opinion about chi (Qi) question 2 is if your a sceptic why dont you open your mind, if you only trust what science hands you (bearing in mind every century we find out science was wrong about yet another thing) chi can be detected using heat sensors and no it isnt just random heat blotches coincidentaly moving where the tai chi master tells you he will move the focus of chi to.

Another self-appreciation thread EmptyHeadOfChi?

Another self-appreciation thread EmptyHeadOfChi?

this thread is 2 years old. yes i appreciate myself theres nothing wrong with that.


peace.