Throughout my life I have had christian friends. Some closer than others. In my dealings I have found two things to be in common with all these "friendships".

1) They have all tried to witness..sharing what they believe is true in hopes I would
jump on the train with them

2) When they were told..no, sorry..ect...
they have pulled out and launched attacks..no matter what the cost...just as long as their project, which was mistaken as friendship on my part, would admit they are wrong and then accept Jesus into to my heart..that then shuts them up.

Now that I think about it...were they REALLY
friendships????? I mean they all seem to get off on sharing dirty laundry about someones life...not just about me..I have witnessed them doing it to others as well.

I find it rather funny how they can state that the anti-christ spirit that is among the non-believers is deceiving... Is there really much difference between them and this
anti-christ deception?

I don't know..I just don't know.

Have any others out here had similar happenings? If so..I would like to read any
responses that you would like to share.

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited January 14, 2000).]

Flash;
No, they were not your friends. The love of Christ goes beyond trying to change ones free will, Christ came to break the law not to make a new one.. Christ says that the greatest thing is love, you can do all these great and mighty things all in his name, but if you do not have love, it is all worthless, useless. The power of His spirit is much more powerful than my intellectual persuasions.. Christ will draw one of their own accord to him. If one truly loves Christ, his love for you is not measured on what you believe or dont believe, it just is... You are created in Gods image, you are a child that he desires to know just as a mother or a father loves a child w/ all of their heart so does Christ.. As humans we all battle with the same obstacles, lust, lying, pride, selfish ambition, etc.. Christian is a good name for many to use to hide behind their own prideful glory. Christ sees whats in all of our hearts, and that why he said put no trust in any man, man will always let you down.. Measure a man by his heart.. LOL.....

Micah,
Yeah, well...it's a let down ... and they wonder why we don't trust them... it's all
a pile of BS....
later..

I am sorry Flash.. LOL

Flash--

I believe the simplest answer is "No, Christians are incapable of being friends to non-believers on the simple grounds that they refuse."

It's actually to the point where I account for Christian faith when I meet someone--no initial conclusions, just a little psychological check-box. Because there is a nearly bigoted assumption that I've chosen to stop dealing with.

It seems that, eventually, an issue comes up that pertains to that other person's faith ... whether it be marriage, sex in general, sexual orientation, free speech, ad infinitum ... that draws a line in the sand. They cannot convert the sinner who sins by believing otherwise, thus they cannot, with any clear conscience, go on being your friend: compassion evaporates when you disagree. They seem to think they have no obligation to see any other perspectives, and suddenly the terms of friendship are in peril. They can't be around you because you insist on actively sinning by not agreeing with their assessment of God's will. So you say, "To hell with it."

And I might address the notion of bigotries in my summary, and it's a question I ask about a few things in life:

"What more than 100% do I need to see?"

In other words ... I'm still waiting for this principle to NOT spring up and bite me in the ass. Childhood, high school, college, and even a couple of years after I quit school--eventually, I chose to stop trying in order to save myself the concussions of beating my head against a spiritual brick.

But that's the best I can offer, Flash.

* * * * *

Lori--

Umm ... wow. May Christ's peace someday find YOU. After all, if that's your version of it, who the hell wants it?

Or does God let you just say that the expressed sentiment of your chosen words isn't hostile toward Flash? I mean, that is the convenient thing, eh? God's will is whatever you decide it is? You just say it isn't?

See, that's the whole joke about modern faith. It would be easy to fix, but it doesn't seem to be that you want to. :D

--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Flash -

Hey baby, hang in there!

Yes, I have had the same durn thing happen to me. I was pretty unpopular in elementary school after 4th grade - I moved into a new area that was "rich" and my family was "poor", so I didn't have Guess Jeans and jelly shoes like the rest of the kids. I did finally find a buddy in 5th grade - she was new to the area and therefore an outcast like me. We were best friends that whole year. During the summer, her Mom became a Christian and basically brainwashed my friend into thinking that if I didn't believe in Jesus, I would drag both of us into Hell.

Next year, 6th grade, she talked nonstop about "the love of Jesus". I still tried to be friends, I even went to church with her a few times (even though I was very uncomfortable there, all the other parishoners kept pestering me about joining) but eventually I told her that I wouldn't go anymore, and that if she didn't stop telling me I was a "sinner" and "going to Hell" constantly I wouldn't be friends with her anymore. So that ended the friendship, and we both finished off 6th grade without any friends at all. I could have been friends with her, but all she wanted to do was convert me, she wouldn't let it drop. Day after day after day, to the exclusion of anything else. I don't care what the topic is, that kind of mindless droning gets to be just too much, after a few weeks.

On the other hand, the very next year, 7th Grade, I met a very nice girl who was a Christian. We were pretty good friends, we lived close to eachother so that made it easy. She did talk to me about it a few times, and invited me to come to church with her a few times. I did go once or twice, but again felt uncomfortable with the rest of the parishoners and stopped going. But she was able to see past our religious differences and be my friend despite my "sinful" ways. We lost contact after high school, but we weren't really that close anyway, we just lived close to eachother and went to school together.

So, Flash, in a nutshell, I would say don't expect someone NOT to be your friend just because they are Christian. I think it varies highly from person to person. And it probably also varies with their age and how long they've held their faith. I imagine a "new Christian" might be more over-zealous about sharing their newfound faith than someone who has had those beliefs longer. Just like my friend - that was 5th/6th grade, perhaps once she had been Christian a little longer she would have calmed down.

I give a damn.......... It would be an honor to be your friend Flash...

I have plenty of friends who are Christians, some harder-core than others. Only once did one try to convert me. I told her I'd much rather be her friend than her follower. Of course she began expounding all the "friendship in Christ" stuff, to which I responded "If your God wants to speak to me, he will do it himself. Don't try to force his hand." She got what I meant, that none of her coersion and coaxing was going to work, that if I was interested I would come knock on the door. She stopped trying to "save" me and our friendship continued. None of my friends from other faiths have tried to convert me, although we could always openly discuss religion without condemning each other to hell.

I guess I've just been lucky, although my father's cousin still thinks we're a bunch of devil-worshippers because I own a crystal ball.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited January 14, 2000).]

Flash,

You've told me, "No!", about Christ all along (for the most part). I still love you anyway. I think of you as a friend. I wish we were closer. Still, could I be your friend and not tell you that your pants are split down the back? If you choose to do nothing, what can I do about it? A friend is there anyway. A Christian, one in truth and not self-proclamation, is understanding anyway. This grows as that person becomes more mature in Christ. Those you spoke of, bore a lack of maturity or were false.

A friend is born for adversity,
ISDAMan

Flash,

I apologize to you for the disgusting words of one of the Body. You have my deepest regrets on the matter. You know that her ill words do not speak for the whole of the Body of Christ. They do, however, stain the whole. I'm sorry. We will be praying for God to work in Lori's heart.

Your Friend,
ISDAMan


truestory,

Please, Please, Please, I need you to e-mail me!!!! It's a very important matter of Christ.

Thanks Sis,
ISDAMan

tiassa,

Here's an example of stereotypical judgement... a Christian cannot be friends with a sinner...


They can't be around you because you insist on actively sinning by not agreeing with their assessment of God's will. So you say, "To hell with it."

Was it really a matter that they couldn't be with you? Or, was it a matter that you chose not to be with them? I really mean no offense here. I am wondering, though, what the sin was? The reason I ask is because it seems that you are the one who is saying "To hell with the relationship." I take it that this has been your personal experience with certain individuals.

If you would allow me to share with you from my personal experience... If it was a matter that I couldn't be with people because they insist on actively sinning, then, I couldn't be around most of my family and friends. One who is with Jesus Christ does not turn their back on the sinners of this world.

Now, if it's a matter that the person is say, doing illegal drugs (and I am not insinuating that was the situation)... and they insist on bringing the illegal drugs into my home, for example... then, yes, I would have to draw a line and tell them that although they were loved and welcome in my home, the illegal drugs were not.

Such a decision, by the way, would not stem from my Christianity.

Lori,

Promises don't mean much to you, do they? In fact, I'm guessing they're pretty much as disposable as friendships in your book.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

There is a verse that Christians wrongfully quote and say we are not to be friends with non christians.

There is no problem with a christian being very close friends with a non christian as long as the christians faith in Jesus is stronger than the non christians lack of faith in Jesus. If the non christians belief is stronger than the christians then the christian will be pulled away and stumble in his relationship with Jesus.

Sometimes when you hang out with a friend or are very close to someone you do lots of things together. If something the non christian does on a normal basis for recreation is sinful then you can't really do this with them. Being around non christians all day will cause a christian to assimilate that life style. What if they listen to music whose lyrics you find sinful and repulsive? What if you find swearing or cigarrette smoke repulsive? Its kind of hard to get a relationship going sometimes. But I have a lot of non christian friends. I'll witness if I get the chance but I'm not going to shove the Bible down their throat. That would just drive them away.

Some people view our preference towards certain types of people over others as being no more wrong than our preference towards certain types of food over others is wrong. It is bad to treat a person with prejudice just because they are a little different but it is not wrong if you'd rather be in the company of non smokers than smokers.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

[This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited January 14, 2000).]

Flash - Think about this and you'll understand.

Non-christians always trust christians for some reason, but it's not the other way around now is it? ;)

Atleast, that's my personal experience.

------------------
.Religion is for those who fear hell, Spirituality is for those who have been there.

I think, when you have a very deep faith in an ideology, whether it's religious or political, you begin to operate from an altered state of conciousness-your whole state of mind is focused within a very defined sphere of intellectual process.
So, it is no wonder that a person who is in this state of being will actually have a hard time associating with people who do not share their zealous euphoria unless they can convince them to 'join the party', so to speak.

The only time ever, that I allowed myself to be sucked into an ideology it happened to be Pentecostal/Charismatic Christianity.
I was zealous and I witnessed at every opportunity and I especially wanted my non Christian friends to join me.
The change in me was subtle but quite dramatic to those that knew me and they weren't convinced by my patronising attitude as I pompously warned them that unless they could let Jesus into their hearts, I wouldn't be able to be their close friend anymore!!
One of them I even accused of having an evil spirit, because he was ridiculing the bible and Christianity.
I'd brainwashed myself so much through faith and zealousness that I began to see non Christians as vessels of sinful spirits, rather than old buddies or ordinary people.

This, I'm afraid is what's happening to your Christian friends Flash.
Forgive them, for they know not, what they are doing.
http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

H-kon
Your personal experience fails to take into account billion Christians that you do not know.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

The problem is Vinnie, that i do not have time to look up that person that doesn't behave that way. I almost became a christian myself, and i know several hundres of them since the time i played lead guitar in a christian band.

I know enough Vinnie to say that this is the case pretty much all over, allthough i know there are some that doesn't behave that way.

That was my experience among the protestants in Norway.

I can't say my experiences are any different among the mormons that i know in Utah either.

Instead of Vinnie telling me that not all are like that, i think someone christian better start cleaning up within your own organizations, the trust just isn't there from me.


------------------
.Religion is for those who fear hell, Spirituality is for those who have been there.

Most of my friends are non-believers. I have lots of friends. They come to me when things really get bad and ask me to pray for them and to give them advice. The advice that I give them comes from my best friend, Jesus Christ.

Truestory ....

I will ask you again:

"What more than 100% do I need to see?"

And, well, I have yet to get my cousin's husband to go to a T&A bar with me. His loss.

Furthermore, what kind of "friend" threatens in the name of love ("You're gonna burn, man!")?

So, yes, you say, "To hell with it," and wait for them to come to their senses. It doesn't mean they're not welcome when they stop acting like jackasses. But if they choose not to join me, fine. I should try it sometime: being as openly worried about a poor Christian who doesn't want to go to a T&A bar as he is when I don't go to church.

I mean, the whole situation seems to put a strain on any potential for a genuine friendship.

Part of it is that I just don't foresee evangelical intervention going out of style among modern American Christians.

"Actively sinning by not agreeing with their assessment of God's will." So ... you still hold your whole family in active sin by that standard? It's called "Dysfunctional." Seek help.

--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Like I said, tiassa, those are your experiences. You "think" you know me because I am a Christian and you identify me with people like your cousin's husband. That is your prejudice speaking.

In reality, my experiences with family members go more like this... When my sister-in-law asked me to go with her and her friends from work to a "ladies night out" to see male strippers, I said "No thank you." When this same sister-in-law later came to me, broken and feeling hateful and alone in the world because she found out that her mother, who she trusted most in the world, had lied to her her entire life, telling her that her father had died when she was an infant when, in fact, he was really alive, I was able to draw on the love of Jesus Christ to help us all work out and understand the forces which guided her mother to participate in the great lie and to help mend the fences between mother, daughter and father. Later, when this same sister-in-law asked me to attend "church" with her, I did. Later, when this same sister-in-law divorced my brother and the majority of my family (most of whom are not Christian) divorced themselves from her because of it, my brother understands that it is the Spirit of Jesus Christ which allows me to continue to love her just the same and to remain friends with her to this day, regardless of the fact that I consider her divorce from him to be a sin in the eyes of God.

Through the Spirit of Jesus Christ, tiassa, I have knowledge of the fact that we are all sinners. Through the same Spirit, I have the ability to love people, including myself, with full knowledge that we are all sinners and that we are all worthy of the love of Jesus Christ. Now, if that makes me a dysfunctional jackass in your eyes or in the eyes of any other human being, then, so be it. Your acceptance or rejectance of me as an individual cannot either help or harm my spirit and neither will cause me to love you any more or less as a child of God.

My prayer for you is that the peace, joy and love of Jesus Christ be with you soon and that it remain with you thereafter.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 16, 2000).]

Flash and others,

When we look to other people as examples of what something should or shouldn't be or what someone is or isn't then we will always be sorely disappointed. When we judge who Christ is by the words and actions of others rather than His words and actions we insult ourselves. When we think that what people do sums up who He is we only rob ourselves of the real truth.

It is saddening for me who calls himself a disciple of Christ to read about the hurt and confusion inflicted by my brothers and sisters. It would be wrong of me however to say I've never done the same.

For those who have been hurt I would ask for your forgiveness and for you to forgive.

I think that the words of Jesus would best sum up the attitude that Christians should have. Jesus was accused of eating and drinking with people of lesser reputation, His reply "Those who are well have no need of a medical man, but those who are ill". Jesus never removed Himself from people, he removed Himself from sin. Jesus never insulted a persons belief but when asked He pointed out the truth.

Jesus spoke about His followers being the light of the world and the salt of the earth. No man lights a lamp and hides it under cover. And what of salt? If it looses its taste how do you restore it? The light goes into the darkness and the darkness can not overcome it.

Jesus spoke many things about what His followers position should be in the world, and they were never words of separation from people. They were words of dedication to God and having a living relationship with Him and others. The biggest problem us Christians have today is that we are so scared of being contaminated that we separate ourselves and label it as holiness. We then get stuck in the rut of talking the talk but sadly forget to walk the walk. To do the things that Jesus did, to be to others what He has been to us.

The town that I live in on the outskirts of one of Australia's most beautiful cities is notorious for its crime and being a lower class area. However this does not stop me from going out late at night and just walking the streets to befriend the lonely and the lost, to try and show the true meaning of Gods love to them if they want it. If they don't want to talk about God well that's OK to, actions often speak louder than words.

People will always move in and out of our lives with varying depths of friendship and relationships being built and broken.

There are friends that pretend to be friends, but there is a friend who is closer than a brother.

Please don't let broken friendships with believers and non believers ever stop you from searching for God.

Please don't search for God in friendships with believers or non believers, you will be let down.

Please DO search for God, but seek His friendship above all others.

Take care.

Lori and Flash,

It seems as though you have a unique relationship on this board. It seems that you are the only two who know each other personally.

It is very sad to see you both hurting so badly right now for many reasons. Continuing to divulge matters about each other which were said in the confidence of your personal relationship, outside this board, is only serving to hurt each other more. You have both broken each other's trust and my love and prayers go out to both of you. What is done is done. It need not continue.

At this point, please try to draw on the love that I know you can find for yourself and each other as fellow human beings. Try to separate the wrong-doing from the individual and look upon each other as fellow human beings with the same weaknesses and the same need for love, trust, compassion and forgiveness.

Peace be with you.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 16, 2000).]

TS,
I read this last night after I made my last post to Lori. I have thought about it alllll
night...and was drawn to read it again today.

I want to point out my emotion is not one of hurt..but, rather anger. I feel soooo betrayed. Not to mention Lori has put me in the position if I talk..I must be prepared to
talk about ALL...to me that is a threat..meaning if you don't..I'll come out and make sure ALL is known.

You pointed out that I have also broken trust because I too have revealed things here on this forum concerning Lori. As much as I try to justify it by saying I didn't until she had repeatedly done so concerning me....I know when it boils down to it..I sunk to the level which pissed me off to begin with.

I do not know.... I don't think Lori can stop from spreading my personal stuff around...she has had a very hard time controlling it..and I can't just sit here and say things with which she agrees with all to keep her quiet.

She may be doing this out of...concern ..or
whatever she says she is doing it out of..I do not think she realizes how important trust means to me..and as long as she defies that.. what the heck am I suppose to do??
Be subjected to it again and again??

I am MORE than willing to stop divulging info
concerning Lori... What say ye, Lori.. CAN you???????? (not holding my breath)

I’ve sold my Condo and I’m in the process of packing so I’ll be ready to move when the time comes. My place of work is also in the process of moving and I haven’t had much time to keep up with all of the posting in this forum. I say this simply to apologize in case I repeat what has already been said.
Friendship to me is very complex and not unique to Christians. Christians may think so, but some of the most vile people around have loved and had friends. Friendship comes from the heart and is another form of love that
should not to be confused with the love two people may have and also share a physical love between them, be they
different sexes or the same. What I’m trying to say here is friendship between two men or women is a form of love
but does not mean they are sexually attracted to each other.
Friendship involves trust and if it is broken more than likely the person was not a friend in the true since. Be we Christians or whatever we are more likely to betray the people we say we love when they are of a different mode. This does not mean you must be the same mode to be friends, but to many people this is an absolute must.
In general I don’t think Christians as a group are any more loyal and trustworthy than any other group. At least
this is what I have found in my life. Simply saying ( love Jesus, and I’m born again) shouldn’t be taken to mean this person(s) are any more trustworthy than the next guy. Remember it was a Christian Nation that put thousands of Jews in the gas chambers. It was Christians who betrayed and burnt people at the cross who were accuses of being witches. Christians have committed the same hideous acts in the name of God that any non Christian group has.

[This message has been edited by Zappers (edited January 17, 2000).]

Zappers,

I agree that man has perpetrated much in the way of hideous acts. As for Hitler's regime which you allude to above, however, please read the following:

"Once Hitler had gained power, he began to see Christianity as a threat to the National Socialists' domination of Germany. After 1935 his speeches and writings became more and more virulently anti-Christian; he argued that Christian worship was a sign of weakness, and that it should be replaced by reverence for the nation and the state, and of course for the National Socialist Party. However, he retained his belief in reincarnation, and his conviction that there was some supreme creative force whose will he was enacting.

'The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity ... The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.

I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.' "


[Quoted from Hitler's "Table Talks" with Bormann,
in "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny" by Allan Bullock.]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These were not the acts of a Christian Nation, these were the acts of a nation which was being lead by a madman.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 17, 2000).]

Truestory--

Strip clubs? Whoa, baby ... better slow down before the excitement kills you.

You know ... Mountlake Terrace, Washington, recently passed a law governing conduct in strip clubs inside their city. The law was passed by an overwhelming majority, though the community's own newspaper cited the notion that private prejudices motivated the "Yes" votes, since so few of those voters would admit to ever having been inside a strip club. So excuse me if I'm not breathless over that.

The problem with testimonies of calling on Jesus while counseling a tragedy is that an equal number of anecdotes exist for those who look elsewhere for their methods of advice.

You, however, are assuming the offense at the notion of Christians and infidels not being able to share a true friendship. It doesn't bother me because one day I might be proven wrong. That you choose to view this as negative is your own choice. Sure, it's sad, but there's a lot of people I don't get along with in the world, it's just that among this brand of philosophy, the issues that cause those discords are much closer to the surface and therefore more active in daily intercourse.

So before you think you're more subtle than the rest, you might want to give more than: "Look, here's a person that I forgave!" I mean ... for someone who argues against generalizations, you certainly seem to reinforce them.

Like I said ... What more than 100% do I need? Why does it have to be offensive that I'd rather skip the banging of heads against the wall and go straight to "moving on with life"?

One of these days someone will probably prove me wrong ... however I'm quite sure that you and I would have plenty of disagreements over whether that person's conduct reflected his faith.

Try this: I meet someone, we decide to go out on a date. She likes romances, I like obscure horror films. She likes fine French food, I like good, common Italian. She doesn't drink. I like beer, wine, and whiskey. She doesn't do drugs, I smoke pot, and occasionally take trips to the outer limits of the solar system. She likes country, I like experimental rock and roll ....

I can find these things out about someone in FIVE minutes. I guess it's wrong to decide I probably don't want to date this person?

Oh, or better yet: I should get a "Friends' Form":

* I (circle one) would/would not allow my child to buy this album because it offends my religious sensibilities.

* I (circle one) approve/disapprove/don't care about homosexuality.

* I (circle one) approve/disapprove of one's right to die.

* I approve/disapprove of marijuana.

* I approve/disapprove of alcohol.


Get the picture? Then I could save myself the trouble of actually engaging people in conversation, all so I could save myself the trouble of putting up with a few dented IQ's.

Of course, to be fair, the Friends Form would be a full-on personality inventory, some thousand questions long, to make sure we're not leaving any wormhole gaps.

The point is that people come together for common ideas. The common ideas that modern American Christians use to identify themselves are just absurd .... I have no obligation to have the same argument with Mike that I had with Tom last week, that Carol and I tangled over last month .... Oh, but wait ... that's the other thing ... nobody's had enough of it yet, if they haven't accepted Jesus, right?

Yes, it is possible to accommodate a friendship with someone whose beliefs are, apparently, so inherently demanding. That amount of effort on behalf of a human being is one thing, but that effort to the cause of establishing the word "friendship" .... Well, it seems simpler to sit and wait to be proven wrong ... but do you ever carry an umbrella when it simply LOOKS like it's going to rain?

I think part of it we're disagreeing on is simple: I think that, in theory, it's possible for an infidel to be friends with a Christian. It's a little harder for me to establish the theoretic reversal ... that a Christian can be friends with an infidel. However, as a practical application, it would essentially require that "because God says so" never comes up as a reason to or not to do anything. And that just doesn't happen.

I could make a form, but why subject something like friendship to something so unnatural? I mean, if you insist ... I could quantify my friends and then be a friendship capitalist.

There are segments of society I can't be friends with, for various reasons. But Christianity is the most perplexing: given the success most Christians have in demonstrating the philosophy they are advocating for your life ... I'd rather live among unrepentant thieves--at least I know hat to expect from them. Or is that presuming too much about the thieves?

Oh ... wait a minute ... unrepentant thieves ... I'm an American. Well, that one's demonstrable now, eh?

--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Tiassa,

As usual, you're stereotyping and generalizing, and taking the sin of Christians as the Word of God. I don't need a form do you? Someone would have to give me a form back...it would probably read something like this....

1 - Are you a Christian? Yes or No

Fact is that Flash and I are friends, and I'm friends with mostly non-believers. Not conditionally, and not with some "saviour complex" intention, but just to share and appreciate someone for exactly who they are. Jesus didn't hang out in the temple THAT much, unless the pharisees needed a lecture or two. Jesus hung with the sinners. I'm a sinner, you're a sinner, wouldn't cha like to be a sinner too? For example....Flash and I don't agree about much (duh, like that's not obvious). Like religion, sexuality, partying, you name it. But we are friends, even though this string was directed totally at me. Friends scrap sometimes, but they also make up too. Just because someone is not saved doesn't mean that they sin any more or any less than someone who is. I don't like the sin, but I love the sinner. I'm a sinner, remember. I'm not special, and I'm not above anyone else. Why don't you get that? Hey Flash, can you testify?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

tiassa,

From what you are explaining, it still seems that you are transferring your own intolerance of Christians into an erroneous, generalized stereotype that Christians cannot be friends with non-believers because "they" refuse. It still seems to be more of a matter that "you" refuse.

In the long-run, though, (and I mean the longest run possible) it doesn't really matter who your friends are as long as your best friend is Jesus Christ.

Truestory--

I've seen carnage before. I know what happens when one puts the pistol to their head and pulls the trigger.

Why drag two people through that when the outcome is predisposed? I mean, it's all in how you look at it. Should I start citing a mind-numbing list of examples, or do you understand the idea of one-hundred percent? Sorry, but I'm waiting for a new kind of Christian before I try beating myself senseless on their behalf. It is kind of capitalist, I admit, but hey ... that's the country I live in and the way we do things. When the relationship between Christian principle and friendship with infidels changes fundamentally, so that I can share life with that Christian on the same level I do with atheists, witches, or otherwise, then I can start rebuilding that process. But it's incumbent to the people who claim the supremacy of their philosophy to demonstrate it even a little.

I mean, who wants to be friends with someone who threatens you all the time? That's a question you don't seem to want to answer. Who wants to be friends with someone who doesn't take you as you are ... who insists that you owe it to some force other than yourself to improve yourself in a way that they cannot demonstrate? Translate that process to anything outside of religion, and the mechanism doens't hold up. Fix that failure, and suddenly the difficulties don't seem so commonplace in the relationship of two disparately philosophical people.

You know, one of the reasons I don't run into this problem with Jewish people, or with Muslims, Sikhs, or otherwise, is that these people know when it's time to preach; in other words, when I ask them for godly advice as a friend. It seems so much more constructive this way. And it beats your rally moan:

"Sure you don't like the way we treat you, but don't we deserve more respect than you're giving us?"

Keep moaning, True .... The simple fact is that "prejudice" is negative when it involves unfounded ideas. What more than 100% is needed to constitute an idea's validity for argument? And we'll speak nothing of practice. If you can't figure that out, then try this: Nothing you believe is valid without a certain degree of assumption. If you do manage to put that 2 and 2 together, try this: 100% consistent experience forces a degree of assumption.

You see, that's what infidels like about the scientific method: we can apply it without fear of contradicting God. We can apply it to people. And yes, sometimes, then, we are looking specifically for that behavior we find unpleasant, but that's part of human nature that transcends even Christianity.

But people who can do that learn when they don't need to enter a situation.

A fundamental difference to consider here is that your Gospel is fact to you ... would I ask a friend to utterly defy what they believe is fact? And a "fact" that carries such a grand stake? But that suspension of alleged fact is what's necessary for two people to communicate--the ability to seek common terms. Judging solely by the ideas you've expressed throughout these posts, that common term is when everyone gets Christ and accepts the Gospel you call Truth.

Gotta admit, though ... that method cuts down on workplace diversity issues. :cool:

--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

tiassa,


Why drag two people through that when the outcome is predisposed?

Intolerance and exclusion based on the assumption of "predisposition" only serves to maintain a 100% stagnant position.

It further serves to exemplify one's generalized prejudice towards certain individuals based on perceived stereotypes.

Generalizations are not always bad things, though. For example... We "all" have something in common in that we are "all" God's children. God has offered the gift of salvation to us "all."

Generally speaking, this is a good thing.

Truestory--

Why don't you outline some of the basic tenets of the faith you hold. I'm quite sure that I've heard them all before (excepting that wonderful, individual spin), and I'm quite sure I've known an association to be strained over it.

And you might try being a little more definite than "I believe in Jesus, praise God!"

And then we can talk about that. But your position seems to assume as much as anyone else's. Your choice to be Christian often necessitates certain suspensions of future choice--that is, you give those choices up when you become Christian. Sorry, but those basic tenets of Christianity suspends too many choices, and that suspension bleeds over.

It could also be that our definitions of friendship are different. But definitions don't seem to matter to you when they differ from yours.

So what is it? Are you willing to examine how points of Christian faith can interrupt two people's relationships? Are you willing to examine definitions of friendship? Or are you just blowing smoke and jangling your bag of nails?

--Tiassa

PS--If God's salvation is a good thing, then you know what it is, eh? That would make you the first person since Christ to have a better idea of what God's will is. Generally speaking, that salvation is a crock. If it's a good crock, it'll make fondue.

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Tiassa,

Are you giving me the brush-off or what? Didn't anything I just said make any sense? I'd like a response, cause I know that it did, and if it did, then this debate would cease. Let's review...

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES

EVERYONE is a sinner, no greater no less, believers and non-believers alike.

As far as sin is concerned among everyone, the ONLY difference between believers and non-believers is that believers admit it and ask for forgiveness and non-believers do not admit that the concept of sin even exists.

It is entirely probable that in this world you will find believers who sin more than non-believers and vice versa. In God's eyes, it is all the same. We may have different circumstances, different sins, different outcomes, but what we must not have are EXCUSES AND RATIONALIZATIONS. In this world, everyone has the same divine responsibilities, and everyone will fall miserably short of what those really are. We don't even know what they are. We are so far away from the Ideal, that it's impossible to even picture. But that's no excuse not to try.

For those of us who are aware, it is written that for a sinner to look down upon another sinner, to suggest that his own sin is lesser than the other, is just committing another sin to add to the pile that EVERYONE has.

Game over.

Let me ask you this, lazy-butt, instead of waiting around to find the perfect Christian who doesn't exist, why don't you set out to be the first ever perfect Christian yourself? You are shopping for the truth and will believe the savviest salesman? Now that's an approach all right. Bravo.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Truestory

I've had a lot going on these last few months with Y2K at work and selling my place and I'm still pressed for time now but I do want to respond to your post in the near furture.
Take care.

Flash / Lori

Sorry about the falling out between you two people. I just became aware of the problems today when I had time to go over some of the past posting.

I just want to say that what I said earlier was not in response to your falling out with each other. In fact had I known jI would have stayed away from this posting rather than fan the flames by saying something for or against you all. When I attack, I try and do it face to face and not in a round about way.

My only interest in this forum is to try and point out we are all pretty much the same regardless of what we do or don't believe and is not to go after anybody in particular. I normally try and keep quiet unless I feel people are beating up the underdog, and this I have no tolerance for.

Anyway, hope your wounds heal and you can both move on without real real bad feeling about each other.

tiassa,

Sorry but, based on what I have seen thus far in this thread and others, I don't think that the exercises which you suggest would be very fruitful.

A simple review of the question and answers in this thread should suffice:

THE QUESTION:

"Christians... can they really be friends to non-believers?"

THE ANSWERS:

Micah - Yes.

Skye - Yes. (Moreso as they mature, it seems)

Oxygen - Yes.

ISDAMan - Yes

H-kon - Non-responsive at first. Later... Yes, but only a few.

Tab - Non-commital. (Relayed personal experience as a so-called Christian. Did say that he had non-Christian friends at the time).

Vinnie - Yes.

Christian - Yes.

Tony - Yes.

Zapper - Yes, but no more so than others.

Lori - Yes.

truestory - Yes.

tiassa - No. (Because Christians refuse).

*** AS YOU CAN SEE TIASSA, AFTER FIVE DAYS, YOU ARE STILL THE ONLY ONE THUS FAR WHO HAS EMPHATICALLY RESPONDED "NO" TO THE QUESTION... 100%, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN... ADDITIONALLY, YOU BLAME IT ON "CHRISTIAN REFUSAL" ***

What more do we need to see???

From your continued expansion of your original answer, it is clear to see that the real answer is... tiassa can't get along with a lot of people in this world and tiassa definitely cannot be friends with Christians because tiassa refuses.

Please, do yourself a favor and seek the love, peace and joy of Jesus Christ. It's quite refreshing. It helps you to learn to love other people.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 19, 2000).]

Zappers,

Thanks. Yes... I saw your previous posts about how busy you are... best of luck with EVERYTHING... look forward to hearing from you when you are settled.

Well.... as Lori pointed out..this was directed at her as a result of our falling out. However, it has been my past experience that the christian "friends" I had met.... well..it was if I became more of a project all so they could shout glory...look at what we accomplished. I really do not want to get into that part of it... Let's just say I have had bad experiences with the christians throughout my life... they only accepted me as a normal person when I finally caved and started going to church... but, I in turn was living a lie just to shut them up. It wasn't real..and it was wrong. I guess you could say I became just as fake as they were. So..I was no better than they in that respect.
Lori and I have shared with one another how odd it is that we ever became friends...it STILL has me puzzled today...
I apologize for the things that all of you had to witness between Lori and I. I can say though... our blood bath is over. We have found a middle ground...and I'm even taking a whole new approach in how I answer things...be it here or e-mail. It's very hard..and that is mainly why I am not posting as much. She doesn't like how I have slammed Jesus the way I do and post evasive answers....I do not like how she has shared things about me without my go ahead... we both are working on this. I had to quit looking at this as christian vs. non-christian
frienship...Instead I look at this friendship as one I want to salvage. Hopefully Lori and I can one day learn from one another.....whoaaaaaaaaa..wouldn't that be something :D

Zappers,
There is no need to apologize...I am the one that owes that apology... soooo I am sorry that this happened the way it did.

Thanks, Flash...

Nice to see you back... I think we are all "learning" here. :)

TS,
Thanks for the welcome back...
You think? Learning is not a bad thing, huh?.. ;)

Are you kidding me?

If I truly had the means, I would be a "professional" student! :)

Thanks to all who are honest and speak sincerely from your hearts. I have learned alot since I have visited this forum.. I have seen the enemy at work also here trying to bring dissension and divide further the truth of Christ. The christians mission should not be to knock a non believer over the head and push them into believing.. rather by being a true friend, by standing by those even if they hurt or offend - By just being there... Yet none of us are perfect - but thats where you separate the spirit from the flesh...

...Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless, and their teaching will spread like gangrene. 2Tim16,17

Truestory, tiassa-

I think you're both right, but only to a point. My feeling is that the truth is somewhere between your two thoughts.

Truestory - I have also had people decide not to be my friend in the first place because I was not Christian. The lost friend I listed sticks out because she WAS my friend, then she was NOT.

I once met a girl in a college class, and ended up as her lab partner. We seemed to get along really well in class, so I invited her to go to coffee with me after class. She asked me "Do you go to church?" I said no, she said "there's your answer." Now, I don't care how strong your beliefs are, that was just plain rude. Next monday I got a new lab partner.

I don't think it's 100%, like Tiassa does - but there is definitely a huge percentage that IS like that. I don't know if catagorizing my answer as "yes" is really what I meant - I think it's more like a "depends on the individual". A lot of Christians seem to identify SO strongly with the Christian faith that they lose sight of the rest of the world. A zealot doesn't neccessarily have to be immature, though they do seem to go hand in hand quite often.

This IS the "Religious Debate" forum, but I wonder - if I were to meet Lori or Truestory face to face, could we keep the topic away from Jesus and God? I don't know, it's difficult to say. (Hope this isn't offending anyone, I don't mean for it to) I know I could hold my mug about the God and Goddess, but my faith isn't really built around discussing it with others. There is no such thing as a witch witness. LOL! What an idea!

Anyway, there's a thought or two...

Lori--

I'll quote Bill Maher: "Get over yourself."

And of course I'm not Christian. Period. I'm not dumb enough to fall for that mess of lies again. I try to be patient with it ... heck, I even try to understand it. But, strangely, what gets in the way of my understanding that odd religion is the people who take part in it.

I mean, if the anger you show is what constitutes the peace of the Lord, then I've got a few things left to figure out about the definitions of words. I don't deny that anybody is capable of feeling a religious passion. I don't deny them that right. But it's hard to make any progress in any system when the words used to describe it don't reflect what I see. It's a simple idea, really. There are times when my principles don't work. I'll stand there, and the situation utterly defies the balance of my regard. And so my regard ... my principles ... adapt and evolve. There are certain aspects of that adaption that are inherently wrong in Christianity. These aspects pertain to moral assessments and the resulting decisions. It is not merely theory when I say that there comes a time when one NEEDS their friends to come through for them, and frankly, ideas of God and sin are the consistent reason for my feelings regarding Christians as friends. Consistently, God wins, and it's plain when it happens, because it shouldn't. And you can dismiss each individual who has ever behaved inappropriately in any way because "we all sin". C'mon ... did, "None of us are perfect" work on your mother when you were a kid?

You seem to think that this is a bare standard, with no process behind it. Of course we all go forward, trying to get along. But, observationally, this is how things seem to have gone. I can accommodate people philosophically because my philosophy allows for it. But there are certain parts of Christianity that are unbending in that aspect ... these issues are more commonplace than you seem to want to admit. Sure, you can love the sinner and hate the sin ... but that's a paradox of Christianity. You want to respect the sinner's right to sin, but you're leaving your "friend" to hang out in danger's way. That idea, I can grasp. But it leaves the friendship hanging on a Damocles-sword of faith that is not perfect, as principle would insist God to be, but subject to human whim, interpretation, and reconsideration. It seems to me that any friendship under such duress equates to calling people my friends because I've smoked pot with them. These people aren't my friends ... that word is reserved for something a little more special than a guy on the next barstool, or a friendly face seen at the bus stop every morning. It goes beyond social engagements with coworkers.

Does it make sense to you that there are certain behaviors which are unbecoming of friends? Does it make sense to you that the confines of various ideas of faith can create those circumstances?

Quite simply, the issues that interfere with friendships between Christians and infidels will, eventually, run into a wall where it is the infidel's will versus God's will. Let that stake simmer and it will only undermine the bonds of that friendship. This, essentially, is the process that I choose not to need, and hope not to inflict on others. One need not proactively seek it ... it happens.

And, yes, it is a shame. It doesn't preclude friendship between infidels and Christians. As I've admitted, someday someone will demonstrate that this perspective no longer applies. But I'm still wondering what social issues will bring about the change in the processes of human conscience that will alleviate the stress of "friendship" versus a mandate from the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. After all, if my friends don't want to go to the ends of the universe, that's fine. If they can't because Dad won't let them come out to play ... that's their choice to interpret the Word that way. And someday, someone will choose around that and I will be demonstrated wrong within my own little corner of the universe. But until then, I'd rather not waste my time or theirs. It's a state of friendship that does not equal friendship to me ... it's dependent on too many artificial conventions.

The only way around it that I can see is if religion and spirituality never enter the friendship ... that, too, I find artificial.

And I refuse to desecrate the notion of friendship in that manner.


--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Listen Tiassa,

I'm sorry. The only reason that I give you so much crap is because you sure can dish it out. All I'm trying desparately to explain to you is this....if Christians aren't good friends to non-believers, then they are going directly AGAINST the word of God that is in the Bible. Doesn't that make any difference to you, cause I would swear that you're trying to say that a big reason that you reject the faith is because of these actions of Christians, which I whole-heartedly admit to being true in SOME cases. Ok, maybe in many cases, but that still doesn't make it right, and you won't find justification for it in the Bible. In fact you will find that the exact kind of behavior that you are referring to is denounced as sin. Now are you telling me that you are going to let other people's mistakes and egos get in the way of your understanding? That's what I meant by lazy-butt. It just does NOT make logical sense. And doesn't it count for ANYTHING that I'm a Christian, and remain friends with all of my family (who are not) and all of my friends (who are not)? Doesn't that say ANYTHING?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Lori--

Of course I get that difference. That's part of my whole problem with Christianity. I think that most Christians are actually "going against" the Bible. That's why the Word is so vague now. Certes we have the words in the book, but they're subject to so much interpretation.

And I'm happy that your sense of family can work within your faith; that is not always so. But the difference to me between friends and family is who grew up where. It has nothing to do with our regard for those other people; I feel closer to a certain one or two of my friends--thus, they become my family, in that ideal sense.

So, yes, it does mean something that you can get along with your familial relations. But the fact that they are that sense of family adds another factor to the equation, which changes my basic regard for the nature of that interpersonal exchange.

But as to your assertion that I reject faith because of the actions of some certain Christians ... that's a serious issue, yes. And though I'm not sure we can bring it back to relevance for this specific topic, I offer you this: On the one hand, I can simply say that those "imperfect" Christians need to shout down their politically-motivated brethren, else they let those ill words and deeds represent Christ's house; in that sense, it isn't the acts, but the rush of the Christian community to deflect those words and deeds ... true, we all know that person isn't a Christian, but the Christian community seems to think he is--something like that. And when we cut that whole issue away, we still come to a certain snag.

What is the "real" message of God ... specifically, how are the cheap answers to be interpreted? I understand the rhetorical campaigns. But what does that rhetoric mean? If billions of Christians in the past were imperfect, so, too is that idea they're preaching. Nobody knows what God's will is, and in that sense, I think exhortations to obey that will are therefore bogus. It's a credibility issue that does affect friendships ... it's tantamount to certain "forms" of lying, which most people seem to hold acceptable. It's arrogance in another sense. I don't want that to be me ... and I try to avoid those quagmires in general. As for avoidance ... if it happens to be that the majority of those persons are Christian, it's just a tragedy of the circumstances of human relationships. I mean ... I've never held Muslim or Jewish extremists in my immediate company, either. It isn't that they're Muslim or Jewish ... it's that I find their logical structures extreme, rigid, and possibly dangerous ... that's why we call them extremists. To link that to the topic at hand, as relates Christians, would probably require an Encyclopaedia's worth of argument 'twixt us.

--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

MoonCat,

Actually, you and I seem to be in 100% agreement here... "it depends on the individual"...

Truestory--

Since you have it all so wrapped up, I'm almost not sure what there is to say.

So I might ask you to define friendship.

Actually, I will.

What's your definition of friendship? Or is the idea of considering that subjectivity just too extreme?

And then I think I need you to explain what priorities you hold in your friendships.

But you've failed to answer yet another question. That, in and of itself, is of no real importance, except that Christians are supposed to be more forthright than that.

So, again ... "What more than 100% do I need?"

It's mathematically impossible for me to exceed this ratio in my experiences. However, if you so insist, I can go out of my way, sell my priorities out, and find a Christian to be friends with. But for now, I think if such issues are going to affect the potential of friendships, it's up to the Christians I meet to overcome their hangups on sin and dominion. Period. You seem to have a problem with the fact that people sometimes want to stop banging their head against the wall. In the end, Christianity is nothing more than a belief. If I believe differently from someone, it is possible to reconcile those differences. However, at what point does God's law become flexible? Friendship is not: "I disapprove of what you do, and find your moral character to be in disrepute, but I'm not going to mention it because it's polite." That's not friendship, and that's part of the conditions I refuse to subject friendships to.

Don't cry foul just because you've got a label to name your philosophy by. Bad ideas are bad ideas. Do you accommodate bad ideas in your home merely on the pretense that you MIGHT be wrong? (In that case, what bad ideas will you tolerate?)

In another post, ISDAMan wrote:

"If I have an employee that is a homosexual and he keeps his business his, I have no cause against him. Everyone, be they Christian or not will be made aware that there are Christian standards of the house. I will go out of my way for any in my charge! There is no exception."

Now ... yes, we know that this is one person. Yes, we know that this is not you.

Is this statement fair, as regards an employer/employee relationship?

If so, how does it apply to friendship?

This "love the sinner/hate the sin" psychology is just a cheap excuse to exercise dominion over people. It's a hard construct that barely holds up in the first place, yet its device is common in relations of faith.

So, in the end, True ... if I were you I would stop dodging questions like a two-bit crook from a bad gangster movie. Furthermore, I would not try rhetorical spins... after all, when you ignore the question and try to be cute with your YELLING and such ... well, it shows the True Story of your faith.

Of course, it is entirely possible that I have the wrong impression of Christians. After all, your narrow rhetorical style is one well familiar to me ... sorry about the fact that it's one of the earliest generalizations of mine you ever objected to, but you're fitting the mold better than if I set you up deliberately. So it could be that there are Christians out there who are actually more intelligent than the depths you're willing to expose through your arguments. But so far, your relentlessly accusatory and paranoid notions, combined with Lori's bouts of invective, need no stereotype ... they may reflect the generalization, but they speak for themselves.

Besides, what better alternatives have you provided, other than that stupid "find the peace of Jesus"? O wise one, what would you recommend?

My choices seem threefold, in the immediate context ... A) Keep going through the same motions, even though I think the personal anguish suffered by both participants in such a dispute is unnecessary and therefore cruel; B) Hold my own and wait for the opportunity to let myself be proven wrong (that's my favorite); or C) proactively seek a Christian who is (IMHO) "capable" of sharing a friendship.


Well ... as I said, A is cruel. B is my current mode of operation. But if I engage C, I'm suddenly discriminating against every religion except Christianity, since I'm out on the limb for Christians.

But then again, relating to individuals of those other faiths has not been so problematic.

But what's your suggestion? After all, you seem to know ALL the answers.

By the way ... my first post in this topic was my opinion. Would you prefer that I should have stood only on that and ignored your recycling of what I've heard in every other topic we've argued in? I can be that disrespectful if you want ... after all, I should ask you how hard it is to dodge every question that isn't stated to your perfect satisfaction?

What you fail to grasp is that people who hold opinions like mine don't just sit back with the quiet confidence of a Christian and know that all of their assumptions are right and justified by God. Were we to carry on that way, such thinkers would not have abandoned the church in the first place; we would have been content with clomping around and abusing people with our philosophy. I have only met perhaps one person in my life who was taught to hate Christians for being Christians. For me, and for many non-Christians I know, it's simply a matter of having heard enough BS from Christians.

We couldn't have made these opinions up without the kind help of wonderful Christian thinkers like yourself. Of course, we wouldn't have felt compelled to by the reeking hypocrisy we perceived, and the inability of our elders, teachers, or otherwise, to reconcile those perceptions without stupid fluff answers like "trust in Jesus."

So are you going to answer the questions asked of you? Or will we get another deflection?

For the time being, I will be happy with a short list:

* What is your definition of friendship?
* What more than 100% is required before I'm allowed to hold my opinion?
* Can a friendship be equitable if one of the friends "loves the sinner and hates the sin"?

I can't imagine you need any more context, but if you still haven't grasped the questions well enough, serve up some more of that classic S.O.S. and maybe we'll all choke in the excess.

Answers, True .... I'd appreciate them before you start throwing my one-liners back at me ... it gives you at least some credibility as a thinker.

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")