Disclosure Conclusions

Disclosure about alien sentient intelligent life forms here on earth will not come from our governments. No, and it will not come from the scientists, nor the religious leaders. It most certainly will not come from any ET's here on earth at this time. Why not?

They are the ones that have the most to lose when disclosure is finally made.

Based on the precept that there are two "kinds" of aliens, good ones that you would want for a neighbor, and the bad ones. The ones you can't trust with your kids or your cows. Pretty much the same as with us humans.

Disclosure is inevitable, and I give the highest probability that it will come from "above". The chaos will be enormous to say the least

Just maybe, it is better that people don't learn about the aliens amongst us.

Norval

What do scientists have to loose from disclosure of aliens?

Or... the alternative hypothesis is: there simply are no aliens to disclose. Thus, disclosure won't be coming.

"Disclosure coming" always sounded like some religious prophecy to me.... Greer always seemed like the self-styled profit. -misspelling intended.

"Disclosure coming" always sounded like some religious prophecy to me.... Greer always seemed like the self-styled profit. -misspelling intended.No wonder you get so confused about the topic. :: rolleyes ::

Disclosure Conclusions

Disclosure about alien sentient intelligent life forms here on earth will not come from our governments. No, and it will not come from the scientists, nor the religious leaders. It most certainly will not come from any ET's here on earth at this time. Why not?

They are the ones that have the most to lose when disclosure is finally made.

Based on the precept that there are two "kinds" of aliens, good ones that you would want for a neighbor, and the bad ones. The ones you can't trust with your kids or your cows. Pretty much the same as with us humans.

Disclosure is inevitable, and I give the highest probability that it will come from "above". The chaos will be enormous to say the least

Just maybe, it is better that people don't learn about the aliens amongst us.

Norval

Aliens here on Earth, eh?

Ho-hum.

Or... the alternative hypothesis is: there simply are no aliens to disclose. Thus, disclosure won't be coming.

"Disclosure coming" always sounded like some religious prophecy to me.... Greer always seemed like the self-styled profit. -misspelling intended.
you know of course that so-called high rankin people got togethe and admitted tat terer was knowledge of advanced technology?
wheter right or wrong. give us your view why thy would com to gether to say all tis? whats teir agenda in yor opinion?

Wow advanced technology!!!!one

You know, there's not any chance that we could have invented all this "advanced technology" ourselves? We are pretty smart you know.

Wow advanced technology!!!!one

You know, there's not any chance that we could have invented all this "advanced technology" ourselves? We are pretty smart you know.
if you hve been following the discussions you'd know that i suggested man-made origins for advanced technology....?

Gosh, Craterchains, that's a lot to swallow all in one post. Please allow me to ask a few questions:

What are you waiting to be disclosed, and why is it inevitable?
Why do you think ETs are on Earth?
Do you really think that humans fall into such distinct and easily definable 'good and bad' groups?
Why do you assume that aliens do?

Gosh, Craterchains, that's a lot to swallow all in one post.

Well, Norval likes us to swallow lots of stuff. Bullshit mostly. Let me answer on his behalf.


Please allow me to ask a few questions:

What are you waiting to be disclosed, and why is it inevitable?

That there are good and bad ETs on earth, and the revelation is all wrapped up with some Judeo Christian mythos he's spun.


Why do you think ETs are on Earth?

Because he thinks there was an intergalactic war, and there are visible bomb craters on otherplanets to show this. They are actually strikes from tidally disrupted comets and meteors, like SL9, but Norv ignores the facts and jumps straight to conclusions without any facts.


Do you really think that humans fall into such distinct and easily definable 'good and bad' groups?

He does, because he's basically a warped christian. So Christian = good, non christian = bad.


Why do you assume that aliens do?

Because of the war, silly! One side was good, you know, like the good christian allies in WWII, and the other side are evil, like Darth Vader and his cronies. Sorry, I meant Nazis. No, Viet Cong. No the Koreans. Whoever it was that Norv was fighting when he lost his marbles.

The guy is a loon, plain and simple.

That there are good and bad ETs on earth, and the revelation is all wrapped up with some Judeo Christian mythos he's spun.

The whole of the western world's infrastructure, including morality and the family unit, could be educed from the Christian model, with the President of the United States being its pontiff.

The whole of the western world's infrastructure, including morality and the family unit, could be educed from the Christian model, with the President of the United States being its pontiff.

Or you could say that Judeo Christian morality was accepted so easily by the west because it's values were close to those already present in pre-christian times.

Indeed, I think that religions are just formalised justifications for moral behaviour which evolution has selected for, individual humans being so dependent on the cooperation of the larger social group. But then I'm no anthropologist and certainly no theologian.

What exact difference would the "disclosure" of the existence of extraterrestrials actually make - I mean, really?

Not this presumptive "everthing we know will be thrown on its head" crap - I mean, really. Who actually gives a cahoot if they do?

Once these aliens have come into the open there are two questions
1) will they prove to be less gullible than humans?
2) will any of them buy me a pint?
How do you you get that it's "inevitable"? Data please.

At some point in time all will discover for themselves the evidence we have.

Why not accept the preponderance of evidence that "we are not alone"?

Why are there ones that deny, deceive, and lie about this evidence?
(As if the Holocaust never happened.) :rolleyes:

These are only a few questions about the obvious cover up going on and on and on, even in the face of the amount of evidence there is today. Why?

As I stated in the beginning, and add this;
"Just maybe, it is better that people don't learn about the aliens amongst us."
What will happen when mankind finds out what these bad Et's have been doing to mankind, the Holocaust may just give a hint. :D

Norval

At some point in time all will discover for themselves the evidence we have.

Or: the available evidence is already shown and it is nothing. The evidence that remains is that which is imagined to exist but held secret by the believers in alien visitation. That this 'evidence' isn't shown is consistent with the hypothesis that it doesn't exist. Humanity has demonstrated itself to be willing to accept wild beliefs and completely fabricated 'conspiracy theories' in the past. This so-called disclosure is no different. There simply is nothing to disclose and the disclosure is yet another prophecy of the religious. Fundamental xians go on an on about end times and second comings... ufo cultists go on an on about disclosure.


Why not accept the preponderance of evidence that "we are not alone"?

That 'preponderance' simply hasn't preponderated. There simply is no evidence that "we are not alone" in the sense that aliens are among us from other worlds. However, it is completely fascinating on an anthropological and sociological level to observe those that believe it.


Why are there ones that deny, deceive, and lie about this evidence?
(As if the Holocaust never happened.)

I thought you were referring to the alleged coverup of aliens... now you're referring to coverup of the Holocaust, too? Or are you attempting to draw a comparisson to the Holocaust and the cover up of "ETs?" You really don't expect anyone to take that comparisson serious do you? The mounds of physical evidence alone for the Holocaust far outweighs the mere anecdotes from a few mystery-mongers and significance-junkies who describe some blurry lights in the sky.


These are only a few questions about the obvious cover up going on and on and on, even in the face of the amount of evidence there is today. Why?


Perhaps because that which is obvious to the deluded isn't obvious to those that rely on critical thought. Norval, you let your beliefs and perhaps your hopes and desires create a bias on what you observe. This has been demonstrated in this very forum time and again. There simply is no credible, testable evidence to suggest that our planet is visited by extraterrestrials. There are some things that invoke question and speculation... but that is where it ends. Speculation is fun... but you can't call it fact or evidence.



As I stated in the beginning, and add this;
"Just maybe, it is better that people don't learn about the aliens amongst us."
What will happen when mankind finds out what these bad Et's have been doing to mankind, the Holocaust may just give a hint.


See, this is what I mean about delusion and speculation. You act as though you are giving hints to information you have, but this information is simply delusion. I don't mean delusion on the scale of mental instability, but the delusions that we are all guilty of from time to time when we convince ourselves of a "truth" we want to exist. But when examined with a critical eye, this "truth" holds no weight.


There is no evidence that "ETs" are among us and certainly none that exists that these "ETs" are doing anything to us.


But if all you allow yourself to believe and understand are the mystery-mongers and significance-junkies like Stephen Greer, Linda Howe, et al, then you are going to be limited in your ability to critically evaluate.

By the way, I realize that this is the type of response in which you typically counter-respond with some inane and sneering or scornful joke... but fire away. Others have no problem seeing those for what they truly are.

Craterchains, I'm still interested in the answers to my questions, if you don't mind...

What are you waiting to be disclosed, and why is it inevitable?
Why do you think ETs are on Earth?
Do you really think that humans fall into such distinct and easily definable 'good and bad' groups?
Why do you assume that aliens do?

Thanks

Or you could say that Judeo Christian morality was accepted so easily by the west because it's values were close to those already present in pre-christian times.

Or you could say that all values in human nature were once ripe and on the table but that certain maladjusted and inferior values multiplied and took advantage of a milieu and circumstance, grew asymmetrically, and, like a surfeited pig, made a handsome profit out of spirituality -- somewhat like capitalism and the marketing department, I think.

Interesting thread, even more interesting the responses, consistent lack of curiousity and spontaneity.

Skinwalker, fixated with book writing, profit and his lack there of.
Phlogger, doing the same old, same old, STDD.
Plus, the lackeys.

Same old same old that's me. Calling bullshit bullshit, and debunking Norvs drivel.

At some point in time all will discover for themselves the evidence we have.

Why not accept the preponderance of evidence that "we are not alone"?

Why are there ones that deny, deceive, and lie about this evidence?
(As if the Holocaust never happened.) :rolleyes:

These are only a few questions about the obvious cover up going on and on and on, even in the face of the amount of evidence there is today. Why?

As I stated in the beginning, and add this;
"Just maybe, it is better that people don't learn about the aliens amongst us."
What will happen when mankind finds out what these bad Et's have been doing to mankind, the Holocaust may just give a hint. :D

Norval

Don't forget the traitors, also

Norval, you have the only cult with one follower... as an anthropology major, I'm thinking of writing my dissertation on it. Fascinating stuff.

Norval, you have the only cult with one follower... as an anthropology major, I'm thinking of writing my dissertation on it. Fascinating stuff.

I've always found this interesting, how people with far out viewpoints recruit. More extreme cases such as Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, and Fred and Rose West have me wondering how one partner proposes the idea to the other, and thinks it will be received well. How daring is that?

In case you aren't familiar with these British serial killers btw, here's some links;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/fredwest1.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2481911.stm

Stay on topic kiddies; don’t set yourself up as slanderers, defamation of character perpetrators.

It might not go well for you to have your dissertation as evidence along with all that you have typed.

craterchains -

what would a bad alien's motive be?

thanks

c20

It's interesting to note that abductees generally describe two basic types of abductions; the negative and positive abduction -- and what's really weird is that the majority of abductees who've had the negative experience can't seem to understand or even acknowledge that the positive type is apparent -- to them, all aliens are "bad". Also noted is that those who've had the "positive" experience describe procedures that are rather futuristic and sophisticated -- while the others describe crudeness and heedlessness. Some abductees claim having both good and bad experiences. Makes one wonder about the good and bad alien, huh?

Stay on topic kiddies; don’t set yourself up as slanderers, defamation of character perpetrators.

It might not go well for you to have your dissertation as evidence along with all that you have typed.

Just what are you blabbering on about now?

You and Norv do hold some far out views. That much is true, and not defamation.

The rest was not aimed at you.

Seems you're hypersensitive. Is that part of your condition?

Also noted are non-"abducted" abductions. Ultra-futuristic tech.

i.e., ...the physical body is no longer required.

i.e., ...the physical body is no longer required
Hallucinations?

Hallucinations?

Absolutely. I had an 'alien abduction' type dream about 18 months ago, even started a thread to discuss it here.

Thing is, I know my experience was nothing more than a dream, because I woke my girflriend up while I was having it.

Now, sad lonely people, who sleep alone and who are prone to bouts of fantasy to alleviate the crushing mundane nature of their existence will have no-one to give a perspective on their bad dreams. So far, I have found little to dispel this picture of people who report abductions as real.

Now, sad lonely people, who sleep alone and who are prone to bouts of fantasy to alleviate the crushing mundane nature of their existence
Hey, you just described me! Damn', abduction fantasy coming up....

{{{how phlo's ';ogical' mind works part 1}}
stage i--he has an experience he calls an abduction

stage 2--he decides it is really a dream cause he woke his girlfriend up

stage 3--because of this dream he decides that ALL other abduction reported cases MUST be te same HIS experience. I.e., that they are 'dreams'

stage 4--ANYone who mentions about abduction experiences--EVEN if they have exprienced them NOT in bed with their girlfriend or boyfriend or pet snake, are now classed as 'dreaming'. like our phlo was/is

such is phlo logic

{{{how phlo's ';ogical' mind works part 1}}
stage i--he has an experience he calls an abduction

Yep, it was a classic abduction dream. Fear, paralysis, face at the end of the bed, ...


stage 2--he decides it is really a dream cause he woke his girlfriend up

What, are you saying that it perhaps wasn't a dream? That it might have been real? So is my girlfriend one of the MIB, and she span a cover story? Or did the abductors implant a memory of my nightmare in her mind? ;-)


stage 3--because of this dream he decides that ALL other abduction reported cases MUST be te same HIS experience. I.e., that they are 'dreams'

I think the phenomenon is sleep paralysis, temporal lobe epilepsy, or other types of mental disorder, not just dreams. But hey, you keep telling lies and stuffing that straw man,


stage 4--ANYone who mentions about abduction experiences--EVEN if they have exprienced them NOT in bed with their girlfriend or boyfriend or pet snake, are now classed as 'dreaming'. like our phlo was/is

such is phlo logic

I think people who have waking experiences fall into one of the other classes I mentioned. Sleep deprivation can cause very vivid hallucinatory experiences, there have been some interesting clinical studies.

But duendy, let's not let any facts or rational debate get in the way, let's keep this personal. You keep making ad hominem attacks, because your ego got bruised in the other thread, eh? Keep going, you really are an ambassador for planet woowoo!

Logic may be infallible, but grabbing it is entirely a different issue. People may claim to possess the necessary tools needed to formulate logical bases, but such tools also require secondary tools, such as wit, risk, duplicity, patience, spunk, autonomy. And alongside rationality there coexists other faculties, other transports of the mind that are just as potent as logic, just as pervasive, just as demanding -- ignoring these is to be heedless of the human manifest, and to be shamelessly censored.

Dreaming is one such faculty, a manifest of the mind, a language that interfaces with one's entire being. To characterise dreaming as a pointless divergence, as a receptacle for useless daytime paraphernalia, as an automat for unwinding, as drama to feed a psychoanalyst, is to belittle one's mind -- to belittle the mind's access to that which the conscious mind blocks. Now, what if you had the tech to access the faculty of the subconscious? How would it be used, and why? To access an otherwise conscious mind that is riddled with prejudices and socio-dilemmas and shopping lists? Or as a means to enter the fortress?

Logic may be infallible, but grabbing it is entirely a different issue. People may claim to possess the necessary tools needed to formulate logical bases, but such tools also require secondary tools, such as wit, risk, duplicity, patience, spunk, autonomy. And alongside rationality there coexists other faculties, other transports of the mind that are just as potent as logic, just as pervasive, just as demanding -- ignoring these is to be heedless of the human manifest, and to be shamelessly censored.

Dreaming is one such faculty, a manifest of the mind, a language that interfaces with one's entire being. To characterise dreaming as a pointless divergence, as a receptacle for useless daytime paraphernalia, as an automat for unwinding, as drama to feed a psychoanalyst, is to belittle one's mind -- to belittle the mind's access to that which the conscious mind blocks. Now, what if you had the tech to access the faculty of the subconscious? How would it be used, and why? To access an otherwise conscious mind that is riddled with prejudices and socio-dilemmas and shopping lists? Or as a means to enter the fortress?

While I consider all that to be some rather intresting psyco-babble, you are completely ignoring some long-standing accepted theories.

The main one being that dreaming is nothing more than the mind's way of clearing out no longer needed bits of information. In today's computer-speak world it could be expressed as nothing more than "clearing the cache."

All that aside, though, exactly what does this have to do with disclosure/ suppression of information concerning aliens?

...you are completely ignoring some long-standing accepted theories.

precisely!

precisely!

And?

Also, once again, what has this to do with the topic of discussion??????

Yep, it was a classic abduction dream. Fear, paralysis, face at the end of the bed, ...
me:::errr excuse m. that is not te classic abduction 'DREAM'. it's you that's termed it o. usually it is known as abduction 'experience' and it has been reported NOT in bed wit a face at the end of the bed. i am very aware of your experience-type. some call it sleep paralysis, not abduction dreams.....are you a fan of Susan Blackmore per chnce?


What, are you saying that it perhaps wasn't a dream? That it might have been real?

me::nope, i am not saying that at all at all

So is my girlfriend one of the MIB, and she span a cover story? Or did the abductors implant a memory of my nightmare in her mind? ;-)

me:::no. now you are being silly.

I think the phenomenon is sleep paralysis, temporal lobe epilepsy, or other types of mental disorder, not just dreams. But hey, you keep telling lies and stuffing that straw man,

me::i keep telling lies? where didtatcome from? i am trying to explore tis, but you keep comin on like some fundamentalist preacher demanding any experience conform to YOUR experince and interpretation of it

I think people who have waking experiences fall into one of the other classes I mentioned. Sleep deprivation can cause very vivid hallucinatory experiences, there have been some interesting clinical studies.

me::who by?....

But duendy, let's not let any facts or rational debate get in the way, let's keep this personal. You keep making ad hominem attacks, because your ego got bruised in the other thread, eh? Keep going, you really are an ambassador for planet woowoo!
i think your the one with the 'bruised ego' dear boy. i am merely challenging your audacity. SOMEone has to. otherwise YOUR ego will grow even MORE

Hey duendy, post some facts, or discuss the topic for a change eh? All you post is ego driven drivel and ad homs.

Hey duendy, post some facts, or discuss the topic for a change eh? All you post is ego driven drivel and ad homs.
everyone here wit any wit. see how tis ever-so-educated-scientist operates. when he is put in a spot he just name calls and accues the other of same

checkout te previous post to him focus on one quewstion i asked him. sources of info to back up what he was 'infomring' us about. now bear in mind, tis is 'mr_facts' mann himself. you would imagine he would JUMP at the chance to present lots and lots of facts. bit no. he avoids that, and other questions, atacks the asker, and ten has te nerve to call the other as doing ad hominem. so a hypocrite as well

this man is a joke

Duendy, in this thread, you pounced on a post made by me to in reply to Oli, and used it as launchpad for an ad-hom.

As usual, you didn't discuss the original topic, nor it's tangents. You didn't offer any fact, insight, or value.

What 'spot' do you think you have put me in? was it this insightful phrase?


nope, i am not saying that at all at all

or was it your question;


who by?....

referring to sleep deprivation studies?

here's some info;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p980301b.html

http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/S/shattered/news/features/Sunday_what_happens_no_sleep.html

http://menshealth.about.com/od/lifestyle/a/sleep_depriv.htm?once=true&

You are being obtuse duendy. It's well known that sleep deprivation causes hallucinations, this much is established fact, but you question it, merely because I repeat it. That is pretty sad, and shows how out of touch with reality you are.

Duendy, in this thread, you pounced on a post made by me to in reply to Oli, and used it as launchpad for an ad-hom.

As usual, you didn't discuss the original topic, nor it's tangents. You didn't offer any fact, insight, or value.

What 'spot' do you think you have put me in? was it this insightful phrase?



or was it your question;

me::i know'at all at all'....you are too sensitive. i realy dont know wht you meaning. all i know is i asked youu fome info, and asked you if you repoced the work of Susan Blackmore. i imagned she'd be right up your street regarding your 'it is just tis' explanation/...ie., she claims that NDEs are nuthin-but oxygen deprivation of te brain. you think abduction experiences--ALL-of-em--are nuthin-but sleep deprivation. sooo. do you know of her? i am asking you a question. this aint no ad hom is it?

referring to sleep deprivation studies?

here's some info;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p980301b.html

http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/S/shattered/news/features/Sunday_what_happens_no_sleep.html

http://menshealth.about.com/od/lifestyle/a/sleep_depriv.htm?once=true&

You are being obtuse duendy. It's well known that sleep deprivation causes hallucinations, this much is established fact, but you question it, merely because I repeat it. That is pretty sad, and shows how out of touch with reality you are.
psyahiatrictimes hey?....suprise surprise....
i am NOT in any way shape or form claiminnnnng tat sleep deprivation doesn't
encourage hallucincations. i speak from exprience....what i AM saying is that tat xplnation in no way covers all reported abdution experience. no sir......you phlo have the unfortunate tendency to generalize, rathe thn keep an open mind

Am I aware of Dr Susan Blackmore, well, yes, and I have posted about her before, and have even met her, as she lectured an ex gf of mine.

Yes, NDEs are nothing more than oxygen deprivation. They can be recreated.

Abduction experiences can be reproduced by inducing temporal lobe epilepsy too. She even subjected herself to that one.

I wasn't say that sleep deprivation accounts for all forms of hallucination either, it was one amongst three reasons I gave iirc. What I am saying, is that my money is there being a prosaic explanation for all of these abduction experiences, and they are all some kind of hallucination or dream.

Am I aware of Dr Susan Blackmore, well, yes, and I have posted about her before, and have even met her, as she lectured an ex gf of mine.

me::i find her incredibly annoyin. a real smart arse with fidgity jerky bodylanguage.

Yes, NDEs are nothing more than oxygen deprivation. They can be recreated.

me::here we go agin. 'nuthin-but'. can you really not see how fundamentally religious you are...?! no, not christian, but te religion of scientism?
reead this:
Greg Stone - a critique of Susan Blackmore and the dying brain...http://near-death.com/experiences/articles001.html
"We see further evidence of bias in her statement that belief in life after death conflicts with science, as though "science" were a monolithic authority that decrees "what is", rather than being a mode of inquiry."....ring any bells??...nyway, please read the article and let me know your reponse

Abduction experiences can be reproduced by inducing temporal lobe epilepsy too. She even subjected herself to that one.

I wasn't say that sleep deprivation accounts for all forms of hallucination either, it was one amongst three reasons I gave iirc. What I am saying, is that my money is there being a prosaic explanation for all of these abduction experiences, and they are all some kind of hallucination or dream.
what are the other two reasons?

You're not getting my point.

Epilepsy may be a neurological condition characterised by seizures and visions but, what causes it? Evidently there isn't agreement on that ("scientists believe that seizures can result from a number of unrelated conditions, including...").

The point is, just as dreaming is a subconscious activity triggered by, wait -- there isn't agreement on that either... ("There are two competing stories as to the neurological cause of the dreaming experience.")

In other words, under atypical conditions--or perhaps, under exclusive conditions?--the brain will react "abnormally". But what's so abnormal about the brain reacting to atypical conditions? And how can you prove that such atypical conditions might not also be externally derived, generating very similar "symptoms"? If alien scientists with a superior grasp of scientific methods tamper, if an individual (an abductee) must be accessed via ulterior channels, if the self must be approached from an inanimate consciousness, all of which are atypical scenarios, will the mind not... react?

Or are you all waiting for special neurological "symptoms" expressly earmarked to determine the "alien" experience, proving that for here, the brain will react thus, but react like that for everything else?

And?

Also, once again, what has this to do with the topic of discussion??????


Right. You sort of turned me off after describing me doing "psycho-babble" -- wasn't that what Water was complaining about you?

Anyway, the honchos of this thread have long left the scene after doing their bob and dance with each other -- the thread was essentially dead until I answered something c20H25N3o asked three days prior, something about good and bad aliens? I just made an observation. The rest just developed. Happy?

Right. You sort of turned me off after describing me doing "psycho-babble" -- wasn't that what Water was complaining about you?

Anyway, the honchos of this thread have long left the scene after doing their bob and dance with each other -- the thread was essentially dead until I answered something c20H25N3o asked three days prior, something about good and bad aliens? I just made an observation. The rest just developed. Happy?

No, that wasn't the problem with Water at all. She just became extremely defensive (which is to be expected, I guess) and became offensive - which is also a common defensive tactic.

The reason I called your presentation "psycho-babble" is that it appeared your purpose in using big, technical terms was an attempt to dazzle while at the same time most of what you were were saying was pure speculation with no foundation in fact whatsoever.

Disclosure Conclusions

Disclosure about alien sentient intelligent life forms here on earth will not come from our governments. No, and it will not come from the scientists, nor the religious leaders. It most certainly will not come from any ET's here on earth at this time. Why not?

They are the ones that have the most to lose when disclosure is finally made.

Based on the precept that there are two "kinds" of aliens, good ones that you would want for a neighbor, and the bad ones. The ones you can't trust with your kids or your cows. Pretty much the same as with us humans.

Disclosure is inevitable, and I give the highest probability that it will come from "above". The chaos will be enormous to say the least

Just maybe, it is better that people don't learn about the aliens amongst us.

Norval

There are so many variables to this issue it can give you a headache. Do aliens exist? Where are their crafts/bodies? Have they been hidden? Can you prove they have been hidden, IF they have been hidden?? Are they dangerous? Are they friendly? Can you hide their crashes when and if they happen? Nonetheless this is a very fun topic, filled with opinions and guesses.

I suppose if one was to leap to the conclusion that alien technology has been covered up I would think the following would be the easiest to conclude; That most militaries cover-up (or classify) alien technology as advanced technology and therefore a great asset for them and something you don't want other nations to have. I would also think for this to make sense, that "Alien crashes" are rare making it a bit easier to keep under wraps at least somewhat.

I am sure some people here will reject any assumption of such a cover-up, I on the other hand do not. Because there have been (and are) cover-up's before that were covered up that dont even begin to touch ETI-technology.

The tricky part is proving it! :) I suppose I'd like to know how one would prove something is classified. If you can find that evidence of ETI is classified top secret (Or above) then you'd be on the way to finding your smoking gun. Anyways, I am rambling, so I will shut it. :D

There are so many variables to this issue it can give you a headache. Do aliens exist? Where are their crafts/bodies? Have they been hidden? Can you prove they have been hidden, IF they have been hidden?? Are they dangerous? Are they friendly? Can you hide their crashes when and if they happen? Nonetheless this is a very fun topic, filled with opinions and guesses.

I suppose if one was to leap to the conclusion that alien technology has been covered up I would think the following would be the easiest to conclude; That most militaries cover-up (or classify) alien technology as advanced technology and therefore a great asset for them and something you don't want other nations to have. I would also think for this to make sense, that "Alien crashes" are rare making it a bit easier to keep under wraps at least somewhat.

I am sure some people here will reject any assumption of such a cover-up, I on the other hand do not. Because there have been (and are) cover-up's before that were covered up that dont even begin to touch ETI-technology.

The tricky part is proving it! :) I suppose I'd like to know how one would prove something is classified. If you can find that evidence of ETI is classified top secret (Or above) then you'd be on the way to finding your smoking gun. Anyways, I am rambling, so I will shut it. :D

Yes, I agree that the tricky part would be proving it.

There's a serious, major problem that I think most "believers" tend to forget or dismiss far too easily (or actually just ignore). The fact that any coverup by the government or military would involve hundreds if not thousands of people.

Never once in the history of humans have THAT many people cooperated well enough to pull that off. Just look at all the other coverups that someone has leaked - with credible evidence - concerning political issues, private deals and the like.Someone , actually several, by now, would have blown the whistle on something that big. And they would have brought some tangible proof with them.

So, in order to maintain their favorite myth, the believers are forced by default - with absolutely no other recourse left to them - to claim that the real information is being withheld. :) The whole thing is really no more complicated than just that.

Yes, I agree that the tricky part would be proving it.


There's a serious, major problem that I think most "believers" tend to forget or dismiss far too easily (or actually just ignore). The fact that any coverup by the government or military would involve hundreds if not thousands of people.

www.disclosureproject.org features many witnesses that could be just what you are talking about. Might take a look at it. I suppose my response to you is that there are hundreds of witnesses and when even one says it's covered up nobody believes them, so I don't really think this is much of an issue. Once you get the thousand witnesses of the coverup, you'd then merely have debunkers claiming that those thousands are lying or mistaken because hundreds of thousands do not support their claims.. lol. Right??


Never once in the history of humans have THAT many people cooperated well enough to pull that off. Just look at all the other coverups that someone has leaked - with credible evidence - concerning political issues, private deals and the like.Someone , actually several, by now, would have blown the whistle on something that big. And they would have brought some tangible proof with them.

We'd have to know how many UFO crashes/ETI events there were to accurately ascertain the number of people that would (hypothetically) be involved. Also, some have blown the whistle (www.disclosureproject.org) only to be ignored. :mad:


So, in order to maintain their favorite myth, the believers are forced by default - with absolutely no other recourse left to them - to claim that the real information is being withheld. :) The whole thing is really no more complicated than just that.

I've read and studied a lot of eye-witness testimony and cases regarding the UFO/ETI connection with the military. Some (Government workers) insist that evidence of UFO/ETI is being withheld - These are people with the security clasification and working position to know such a thing.

I don't think we can just ignore them, as I don't think you do either.

www.disclosureproject.org features many witnesses that could be just what you are talking about. Might take a look at it. I suppose my response to you is that there are hundreds of witnesses and when even one says it's covered up nobody believes them, so I don't really think this is much of an issue. Once you get the thousand witnesses of the coverup, you'd then merely have debunkers claiming that those thousands are lying or mistaken because hundreds of thousands do not support their claims.. lol. Right??



We'd have to know how many UFO crashes/ETI events there were to accurately ascertain the number of people that would (hypothetically) be involved. Also, some have blown the whistle (www.disclosureproject.org) only to be ignored. :mad:



I've read and studied a lot of eye-witness testimony and cases regarding the UFO/ETI connection with the military. Some (Government workers) insist that evidence of UFO/ETI is being withheld - These are people with the security clasification and working position to know such a thing.

I don't think we can just ignore them, as I don't think you do either.

I believe you missed one key statement in my post, namely "And they would have brought some tangible proof with them. "

The only "thing" they've presented is talk. :D And anybody can do that - it proves nothing.

The only "thing" they've presented is talk. And anybody can do that - it proves nothing.

Come to think of it, what purpose would proof or disclosure serve? The very nature of this scenario -- whether true or false -- involving extraterrestrials and UFOs is a curious one, isn't it? Under climate of this scenario, the human being is "victimised", the human being is "disadvantaged", "vulnerable", "insecure", "alone", "frightened". The human community is "unsympathetic", "indifferent", "distrustful", "contentious", "contemptuous", "conventional", "provincial", "haughty". Why should ETs desire contact with that?

But as long as abductions continue in this trend (as they continue to be "reported" -- whether true or false), I doubt any proof or disclosure will ever happen. However, should abduction reports and UFO claims suddenly stop. Then, like the calm before the storm...

BTW, I read somewhere that governments are in fact dropping hints and bits of information here and there amid disinformation.

Come to think of it, what purpose would proof or disclosure serve? The very nature of this scenario -- whether true or false -- involving extraterrestrials and UFOs is a curious one, isn't it? Under climate of this scenario, the human being is "victimised", the human being is "disadvantaged", "vulnerable", "insecure", "alone", "frightened". The human community is "unsympathetic", "indifferent", "distrustful", "contentious", "contemptuous", "conventional", "provincial", "haughty". Why should ETs desire contact with that?

But as long as abductions continue in this trend (as they continue to be "reported" -- whether true or false), I doubt any proof or disclosure will ever happen. However, should abduction reports and UFO claims suddenly stop. Then, like the calm before the storm...

BTW, I read somewhere that governments are in fact dropping hints and bits of information here and there amid disinformation.

Interesting thoughts.

My main point about proof from the whistleblowers, as opposed to all those people that just crave attention, is that some of them would have brought along tangible proof. Photos, small artifacts, material samples - something besides just their mouths. They would know their word alone would be doubted. If it were me, I woudn't say anything without something to back me up.

So I don't believe a single one of them. They just enjoy (as many people always have) the attention their wild claims get them.

Now understand that I'm not at all berating those who really think they've seen something. There have been many mysterious sightings that haven't been fully explained. But that still doesn't mean they are craft being flown by ETs. I'm talking about all the wild claims of abductions, having seen alien craft secluded away in some remote location - all that sensationalism junk. I don't think there's an ounce of truth to any of it.

“
i find her incredibly annoyin. a real smart arse with fidgity jerky bodylanguage.

So you judge her on a superficial level? Very fair and even minded of you.


here we go agin. 'nuthin-but'. can you really not see how fundamentally religious you are...?! no, not christian, but te religion of scientism?

It's simple duendy. Weird shit happens. Science investigates weird shit, and learns what causes it. An experiment is devised that can recreate the symptoms, based on the data gathered from monitoring real live situations. That is pretty conclusive. You are just throwing doubt, saying 'well you can't prove there isn't more to it, so science is flawed.' Well woowoos can't prove there is a spirit to live on post death, there have been no measurements, or readings. Science has data, and woowoos have assertion. I an the antithesis of religion, duendy, but oddly, you call me religious as a slur, when believing in the afterlife is a religion. Again, you speak out of both sides of your mouth at the same time!




Greg Stone - a critique of Susan Blackmore and the dying brain...http://near-death.com/experiences/articles001.html

Started reading it, and he uses some really below the belt moves to try and prove his point. Of course, having studied at a theological seminary, he's hardly objective on the matter, and in fact, is guilty of one of the things you supposedly dislike; he's attempting to maintain the power of the church by propogating their lies so they can keep controlling the masses. I'm surprised you can't see through the article and see that!

To quote that article;

"The common link between NDE and these other experiences is the release of the spirit, to a greater or lesser extent, from the body. This is the relation that should be investigated".

Now, that is an interesting, and obviously flawed statement. Surely, if such a thing as a spirit existed, it would leave the body once it is dead. Why does a spirit leave, and then presumably re-enter a body during a _near_ death experience? How does it get back in? Stone's critique of Blackmore supposes the existence of the spirit. But he has not proven that. So anything built on his initial premise is not proven, until the spirit is proven. Good luck to him making his words good.


what are the other two reasons?

Listed in the thread previously. Perhaps time for a recap?

Interesting thoughts.

My main point about proof from the whistleblowers, as opposed to all those people that just crave attention, is that some of them would have brought along tangible proof. Photos, small artifacts, material samples - something besides just their mouths. They would know their word alone would be doubted. If it were me, I woudn't say anything without something to back me up.

So I don't believe a single one of them. They just enjoy (as many people always have) the attention their wild claims get them.

Now understand that I'm not at all berating those who really think they've seen something. There have been many mysterious sightings that haven't been fully explained. But that still doesn't mean they are craft being flown by ETs. I'm talking about all the wild claims of abductions, having seen alien craft secluded away in some remote location - all that sensationalism junk. I don't think there's an ounce of truth to any of it.

You know, this obsession for proof proof proof -- what is it really? As I've mentioned in passing somewhere here, either here or in philosophy, one must also learn to scratch the surface where least expected. But what is this obsession for proof? Couldn't it also be a "symptom" of a "deranged" mind, such as an allegory for capture, possession... imprisonment? Sure, we want to know the truth. But I suspect that desire is disingenuous -- knowing much about ambitious, competitive, territorial modern man. And if sentient aliens have any similar psychological perceptions -- being well travelled and savvy and all -- wouldn't they also conclude, in reference to disclosure, "ah, thanks but no thanks."

You know, this obsession for proof proof proof -- what is it really? As I've mentioned in passing somewhere here, either here or in philosophy, one must also learn to scratch the surface where least expected. But what is this obsession for proof? Couldn't it also be a "symptom" of a "deranged" mind, such as an allegory for capture, possession... imprisonment? Sure, we want to know the truth. But I suspect that desire is disingenuous -- knowing much about ambitious, competitive, territorial modern man. And if sentient aliens have any similar psychological perceptions -- being well travelled and savvy and all -- wouldn't they also conclude, in reference to disclosure, "ah, thanks but no thanks."

I'll simply say this. There is no obsession with proof. Rather, without proof there is nothing at all.

Science is a never-ending search for proof, always scratching, always digging. Specualtion, wishful thinking, imagining and all the rest generally leads to nothing at all. Now THAT'S where mental derangement comes into the picture. Just look at Duendy and Rabon for prime examples of that sort of thing. <sad>

But how can there be proof if the proposition is constantly cheapened, if the proposition is barely permitted to be heard? This pseudoscience forum can attest to that! No -- you haven't convinced me: the naysayers abound in this society, and their tactics and imperial impatience is enough to support my theory that humankind is sadly not an attractive prospect for any galactic civilisation to meet in toto.

And if humankind is sadly not an attractive prospect -- there will never be proof!

I'll simply say this. There is no obsession with proof. Rather, without proof there is nothing at all.

Science is a never-ending search for proof, always scratching, always digging. Specualtion, wishful thinking, imagining and all the rest generally leads to nothing at all. Now THAT'S where mental derangement comes into the picture. Just look at Duendy and Rabon for prime examples of that sort of thing. <sad>
keeep myt name and others out of your gossiping little world you nazsty piece of shit. if you said that to me face i'd give you a good slap

“

So you judge her on a superficial level? Very fair and even minded of you.

me::actually body language is vry much NOT a superficial level. oneperson can say someting superficial and body language is showng other MUCH deeper stuff. i gained this insight incredibly powerfully when at tended 15 i had my very first acid Trip.
Having said that, in tis instance, i am not judging what she says soley on that. i just mentioned it.

It's simple duendy. Weird shit happens. Science investigates weird shit, and learns what causes it.

me::i so wish you wouldn't snip pieces of what i ay out of context. your reponse was after me saying how you calimed that NDEs are 'nuthin but' oxygen deprivation. so it was DIRECTLY challenging tat point of view of yours which is why i linked you to your hero Bladkmore

An experiment is devised that can recreate the symptoms, based on the data gathered from monitoring real live situations. That is pretty conclusive. You are just throwing doubt, saying 'well you can't prove there isn't more to it, so science is flawed.'

me::did you READ the article....?!

Well woowoos can't prove there is a spirit to live on post death, there have been no measurements, or readings. Science has data, and woowoos have assertion. I an the antithesis of religion, duendy, but oddly, you call me religious as a slur, when believing in the afterlife is a religion.

me::god you ar a pain wit your deorogatory term 'woowoos'. just that lone showsyour uter arrogance. woo woo off!....now howte f is science gonnatest for 'spirit'. are you completely ignorant?

Again, you speak out of both sides of your mouth at the same time!

me::hven't a clue what tat same old same old response is referring to, as i cant snip te quotes i had previously made.

Started reading it, and he uses some really below the belt moves to try and prove his point.

me:::not like you..? ohhhh noooo

Of course, having studied at a theological seminary, he's hardly objective on the matter, and in fact, is guilty of one of the things you supposedly dislike; he's attempting to maintain the power of the church by propogating their lies so they can keep controlling the masses.

me::right right. so you are NOT bias? i seeeeee

I'm surprised you can't see through the article and see that!

me::andi am surprised you dont even seem to have read the article.

To quote that article;

"The common link between NDE and these other experiences is the release of the spirit, to a greater or lesser extent, from the body. This is the relation that should be investigated".

Now, that is an interesting, and obviously flawed statement. Surely, if such a thing as a spirit existed, it would leave the body once it is dead. Why does a spirit leave, and then presumably re-enter a body during a _near_ death experience? How does it get back in?

me::god everytingis nuts and bolts to your old rusty mind init. how does the spirit get back IN? what kind of a questin is THAT?

Stone's critique of Blackmore supposes the existence of the spirit. But he has not proven that. So anything built on his initial premise is not proven, until the spirit is proven. Good luck to him making his words good.

me::listen totis dude. till te spirit isproven. ti is where we have come to in tis sad sad age wit tese ignoramouses at te helm.
have you ever gotten the spirit? do you ven know what i mean?

Listed in the thread previously. Perhaps time for a recap?

perhaps you should READ the article, and the MIAN relevant bit, that puts paid to all your strutting know it all bravado, when you know nowt........where it is writen:
"Ms Blackmore responded well and confirmed my observation that the work was primarily that of conjectre and speculation."

do you understand that phlo?

keeep myt name and others out of your gossiping little world you nazsty piece of shit. if you said that to me face i'd give you a good slap

Hey, we can mention names like Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Chessman and other neurotics. Why should you be any different?

Duendy, your source has supposedly received a letter from Sue Blackmore saying her theories are conjecture, but he didn't publish that letter. On her own web site, concerning NDEs;

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si91nde.html

She doesn't add a caveat about oxygen deprivation, indeed, she repeats the statement.

In this paper;

http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/Cyclohexamines/Ketamine/Ketamine_near-death.html

Oxygen deprivation, and the biochemical side of NDEs are discussed.

Oxygen deprivation is covered here;

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

These are papers by scientists, with no agenda other than discovering the truth, completely different to the guy you cite, who has a christian agenda.

Also, you gloss over the obvious flaws in that paper you referenced. And yes, questions such as 'why does the 'spirit' leave the body before death, and not at death' and 'how does the spirit get back in' are relevant! If this happens as reported, it happens for reasons. What are they, and how?

Of course, I'm happy to conclude it's a product of the brain shutting down. You on the other hand are left with the burden of proving that spirits exist. Yo uask how to do that, well, the first article deals with a few ways people have tried, and failed, to detect the spirit. I think that's fairly conclusive.

Anyway, the weight of evidence is against you. Now, how are you going to catch that spirit? Ever see the film 'The Asphyx'? Might give you some ideas!

Hey, we can mention names like Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Chessman and other neurotics. Why should you be any different?
now how do you know i am NOT a serial killer who is also good at hackin peoples info.....by theway, you never did tell me where i can find your resume at these forums?

'cos to be a good hacker you'd have to be able to use a keyboard?

Hacking is tedious anyway.

Duendy, your source has supposedly received a letter from Sue Blackmore saying her theories are conjecture, but he didn't publish that letter. On her own web site, concerning lNDEs;

me:: so you disbeliev him. why not? ie., i mean...fair enough

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si91nde.html

She doesn't add a caveat about oxygen deprivation, indeed, she repeats the statement.

me::i see.

In this paper;

http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/Cyclohexamines/Ketamine/Ketamine_near-death.html

Oxygen deprivation, and the biochemical side of NDEs are discussed.

Oxygen deprivation is covered here;

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

These are papers by scientists, with no agenda other than discovering the truth, completely different to the guy you cite, who has a christian agenda.

me::oh gawwwd, why cant they have a siencism agenda then. are you claiming they are not touched by subjectivity?!....and also to be fiar Grego Stone does say he has an interest in religion AND sciencem and allows people to read Blackmore's paper to make teir own minds up.....also, phlo do you havfe a problem with his insight:
We see further evidence of bias in her statement that belief in life after death conflicts wit science, as though "science" were a monplithic authority that decrees what is", rather than being a mode of inquiry."....do you see what he means
you see i can tell you are assuming what i believe. you have said so several times. yet you do NOT know. i am rather inquiring is all

Also, you gloss over the obvious flaws in that paper you referenced. And yes, questions such as 'why does the 'spirit' leave the body before death, and not at death' and 'how does the spirit get back in' are relevant! If this happens as reported, it happens for reasons. What are they, and how?

me::so you assume 'spirit' is a thing do you?

Of course, I'm happy to conclude it's a product of the brain shutting down. You on the other hand are left with the burden of proving that spirits exist. Yo uask how to do that, well, the first article deals with a few ways people have tried, and failed, to detect the spirit. I think that's fairly conclusive.

me::but what does what you said mean? detect a spirit? in what sense?

Anyway, the weight of evidence is against you. Now, how are you going to catch that spirit? Ever see the film 'The Asphyx'? Might give you some ideas!

WHAt weight of evidence? i am not feeling any weight at all. just hot air

The records of hauntings which seem to occur in a location that has had deaths associated with it is a good start on the spirit thing. It won't be too long before great evidence is achieved regarding this phenomon. It's important to understand that science has no place for "spirits" or an "afterlife". Probably never will.

TAPS has caught several doors openning completely by themselves when there was no draft or wind to do it (too heavy!) and a human could not possibly open it because there was an object behind the door that would have made it impossible to do so. The TAPS TEAM (who are VERY skeptical) decided this was not normal, therefore para-normal. ;)

Even more interesting would be proving that hautings actually do have something to do with either residual sprit energy or an active spirit still refusing to leave this world. Im not sure we could really prove such a thing, even if it were true. :(

I believe you missed one key statement in my post, namely "And they would have brought some tangible proof with them. "

The only "thing" they've presented is talk. :D And anybody can do that - it proves nothing.

Proof? And you prove my point. Almost all of the government witnesses claim that ETI evidence is of the highest security, thus the proof is concealed.

However, some of them do have evidence. For instance FAA investigator John Callahan has some materials that you can view to this day, that he says the Reagan scientific staff thought was a UFO (ETI). He also says that they were not going to tell the public because it would panic the public and that they were going to go back and study this. What he has is not the object itself, but proof that what he is saying has some merrit. If it's swamp gas, why would that panick the public? :p It's also interesting to note President Reagan's continual references to; "What if one day we were to find out that we were not alone in the universe? I think that would surely unite us all". (something to that effect) which further pushes his story to the concievable.

It seems you want tangible proof. Which, given that this hundreds of witnesses who consistantly say this is above top secret - makes your request rather foolish.

My main point being that it's not the believers who maintain there is a myth of a coverup. It's those who have worked in our military and government who do, and in some cases have some corraberated materials to back that up.

But how can there be proof if the proposition is constantly cheapened, if the proposition is barely permitted to be heard? This pseudoscience forum can attest to that! No -- you haven't convinced me: the naysayers abound in this society, and their tactics and imperial impatience is enough to support my theory that humankind is sadly not an attractive prospect for any galactic civilisation to meet in toto.


Your assuming all bad deeds in this world are done by humans and are we to assume your even human?

The records of hauntings which seem to occur in a location that has had deaths associated with it is a good start on the spirit thing. It won't be too long before great evidence is achieved regarding this phenomon. It's important to understand that science has no place for "spirits" or an "afterlife". Probably never will.

me::: hmmmm yes. this ghost thing is strange. it also opens up a lot of questions....for example. if it is believed that spirits of dead people hang around houses for decades....why would tis be. if Nature is always change, and tis implies death rebirt and regeneration. why would it be so that so-called 'spirits of the dead' just kinda stay the same...doing similar stuff for seemingly a long long time..thisis all speculation of course, but i mean if we are hearing what so-called psychics say. some will say in answer to why ghosts still linger in places, eg 'oh...they dont want to go on'...well what does that mean? go on to where? the kigdom of heaven?.....so whats that mean and are there different types of ghosts/spirits. for you hear of ghosts who just do te same old stuff alsmost mechancical like...ad for example walk abover te actual ground,or below it, maning that it could be some kind of 'recording'. ten--if believed--we hear of more individualistic ghosts who can close doors, make contact etc. really odd all this. our ancient ancestors had no problem with the idea of contacting ghosts....!but as i say--hat does it mean? d you like the idea that your future may consist of hanging round a house for the next 600 years havin to listen to bores saying 'is there anybodddy thereeeeee?????"...and then freakin out if you knock etc. saw this programme about these psychic investigators going to these haunted houses. they never hit up fukin talkin. no silence...chitterchatter and ten freakout, ad nauseum

TAPS has caught several doors openning completely by themselves when there was no draft or wind to do it (too heavy!) and a human could not possibly open it because there was an object behind the door that would have made it impossible to do so. The TAPS TEAM (who are VERY skeptical) decided this was not normal, therefore para-normal. ;)
me::well when i atched that prog i thought Cui Bono...wose ti benefiting? is it likely wewould see tese inevstigators in these houses and NOTHIN happens? what about viewers? ratings?

Even more interesting would be proving that hautings actually do have something to do with either residual sprit energy or an active spirit still refusing to leave this world. Im not sure we could really prove such a thing, even if it were true. :(
but what does 'refusing to leave tis world mean?...why is it tis world has to be left? that to me smakcs of the Abrahamic myths..especially christianity. tough astern beliefs havethese ideas too.......so many quetions

Your assuming all bad deeds in this world are done by humans and are we to assume your even human?

As consoling as it might seem that there's a concealed back hand involved in human affairs, and that humans are mere scapegoats, the fact remains that they are either corrupt to begin with, or that because they are corruptible they are easily manipulated -- one way or the other, it couldn't possibly bear much sympathy. Or, if they've been "altered", then they are "spoiled". However, I concede that not everyone is of the herd, and many attractive individuals across history have arduously weaned themselves from the social apparatus, apart but "liberated". Perhaps these would be the candidates being processed for a first contact of another type -- if they haven't already been approached in some way? But hardly the mob.

Not a mob, but an innumerable crowd with 144,000 plus 2., only one specific contact.
Spoiled? But not forgotten.

OK, duendy, let's cut this problem into parts. Let's start with the first part. The spirit.


so you assume 'spirit' is a thing do you?

I think 'thing' is a good word, it implying something that has been descibed vaguely. I make no assumptions about a 'spirit', other than if it is supposedly associated with our bodies and minds, and somehow is part of our personality, it must be able to interact with our brain somehow. Our brain being physical, somehow the 'spirit' must be able to affect the physical to express itself. Kinda like a driver can hold onto a steering wheel to steer the car, if you will.


but what does what you said mean? detect a spirit? in what sense?

If a spirit an interact with a physical brain, some facet of it must be similar to a brain, and as brains use electrical currents, I'd expect to be able to detect that facet, or whichever way it interacts with the physical world.

If this isn't what you understand by spirit, please give your definition, so we have a common term to discuss.

OK, duendy, let's cut this problem into parts. Let's start with the first part. The spirit.

me:ok

I think 'thing' is a good word, it implying something that has been descibed vaguely. I make no assumptions about a 'spirit', other than if it is supposedly associated with our bodies and minds, and somehow is part of our personality, it must be able to interact with our brain somehow.

me::that sounds to me like Cartesian dualism. Ie., te idea that 'mind' or 'spiri' has to 'make contact' with 'physical' brain. Descartes presumed 'it' did so via the pineal gland. He sa typically trying to understand all tis though his current mechanical understanding of te times, hence the words he used like 'pulleys' etc

Our brain being physical, somehow the 'spirit' must be able to affect the physical to express itself.

me::again, you are lookingat this throug a dualistic presuppposition which demnds that 'spirit' and Nature are seprate and 'ned' to interact through some means. why cant you accept that they were nve separated in the first place? Iti only indoctrination from patriarchal mythology, religiousbliefs, philosophy, and sciencism that this has ben diseminated!

and Kinda like a driver can hold onto a steering wheel to steer the car, if you will.

me::that is likemte idea that tere is a little-man in the brian running thing. i dont go wit that. it is much more complex than tat.
A professor of philosophy is a good source to look at. he's Christian de Quincey http://www.deepspirit.com where he argues that the 'problem' of scinces 'mind/body' problem comes from a series of false avenues taken over te centuries regarding this conundrum......Asi just said, Rene Decartes attempted to try and explain it, but wa unknowingly caught up in his unconscious preconceptions, which were/are mechancial and extremely limited.........But ewven today te problem continiues hence te current 'hard problem' (David Chalmers)considering the 'problem' of qualia, subjective consciousness
so what is 'spirit'?


If a spirit can interact with a physical brain, some facet of it must be similar to a brain, and as brains use electrical currents, I'd expect to be able to detect that facet, or whichever way it interacts with the physical world.

me::de Quincey explains it thus: yo cannot use 'energy talk' when you are talking about consciousness. because consciousness cnnot BE measured. so to call it waves, or electrical charge, or any'ting' isenergy talk....checkout hisessay about this

Yet he is not being Idealistic. he is not saying that 'conciousness o spirit came first and 'matter' is less-than, or vicw versa which materialist scince states. rathe that matter-eenergy and consciousness are ALWAYS togther yt distinct, like the substance and shape of a tennis ball

If this isn't what you understand by spirit, please give your definition, so we have a common term to discuss.
i have briefly above. remember i also mntioned 'getting the spirit' before. th actual feelng of intensified spirit. ...so you cannot examine this objectively. that is out of te window that we can be purely objective. do you agree? especially about spirit

Duendy, the spirit must make contact somehow, if it is somehow part of our personality. Drugs affect eth brain, and our behaviour, and we understand how they do this, through biochemistry. The 'spirit', if it affects our personality, or is our essence, or whatever, must do the same. So what is the 'spirit'?

Why can't you use 'energy talk' when discussing the spirit? To assert that, you'd have to know something about the object. Sounds like he's building on sand there again, defining the spirit, but without anything to back up that definition.

BTW, consciousness can definitely be measured, there have been experiments that detect the brain patterns occurring when a subject recognises a face, for example. Show them a picture of a stranger, different pattern. Show them someone they know, and the very cognitive act of recognition has a signature. I'll dig out a source for this one, as it's fascinating. Of course, general brain activity, sleep, REM etc can also be detected too.

But here is a facet I'd like you to cover when you explain what you think a 'spirit' is. What does it have to do with our consciousness and personality?

Duendy, the spirit must make contact somehow, if it is somehow part of our personality.

mee::when dicussin such deep matters. its important to keep aware te origins of the terms we are usin....for example 'spirit' comes from 'spiritus'-'to breathe', and personality from 'persona'--'a mask' one wears. 'spirit' is fiarly archaic, so i suggest using 'consciouness'?

Drugs affect eth brain, and our behaviour, and we understand how they do this, through biochemistry.

me::no you dont. yu may understand the physiological chemical nd eleterical changes, but not te content of subjectiveconsciouness, that is the 'hard problem'!

The 'spirit', if it affects our personality, or is our essence, or whatever, must do the same. So what is the 'spirit'?

me::rephrasing it. what is 'consciousness'? i am claiming -wit de Quincey (and even Descartes had tis insight)-it cannot be measured for it has no extension in space, a does matter-energy

Why can't you use 'energy talk' when discussing the spirit? To assert that, you'd have to know something about the object. Sounds like he's building on sand there again, defining the spirit, but without anything to back up that definition.

me::if tere was one question you'd like to ak de Quincey about tis wht would it be?
i feel i can understand that you cant use energy-talk to discuss consciousness. many newagers usenenergy talk. i was accused of bein one of them recently.....hah

BTW, consciousness can definitely be measured, there have been experiments that detect the brain patterns occurring when a subject recognises a face, for example. Show them a picture of a stranger, different pattern. Show them someone they know, and the very cognitive act of recognition has a signature. I'll dig out a source for this one, as it's fascinating. Of course, general brain activity, sleep, REM etc can also be detected too.

me::but like i said above. you aren't actually measuring 'consciousness' but matter energy, as you can measure matter energy but not consciousness. you cannot measure the subjective content of consciousness.......try at quincey's site, or google this and let me know your response "Why Consciousness is Not Energy".
for example. let me ask you: how big is consciousnss? ...how big is feeling?....where IS cnsciousness?....if you can measure it yu shouod be able to answer these

But here is a facet I'd like you to cover when you explain what you think a 'spirit' is. What does it have to do with our consciousness and personality?
well. as i began. wecan tie ourself in knoys if we dont understand the terms we are using. please see above. tho i dont presume you start reading from below. tho some do do so. i sometimes read artcles from the end to te beginning

Not a mob, but an innumerable crowd with 144,000 plus 2., only one specific contact.
Spoiled? But not forgotten.

Well, I was just admiring the canvas for as much as I can assume, from my vantage point… there seems to be another layer beneath the paint whose masterly brush work dates to a different era, exposing bits and parts of another scenario, another drama, that is not necessarily clashing with the contemporary one on its surface, but bleeding into it, blending into it, but at variance with its more modern veneer—it is well hidden. I suspect though that it must remain securely hidden, lest it be smuggled away into the black market, as one of those piece de resistance—old paintings are so coveted now-a-days.

So duendy, instead of asking me questions, how about you just define what you think spirit or consciousness is. We'll start from there.

So duendy, instead of asking me questions, how about you just define what you think spirit or consciousness is. We'll start from there.

ok. first let'sagree we are calling 'spirit' consciousness, soas not o get confused. 'spirit' altho a powerful term is in tis instance fairls, andits ooriginal etymological root is 'spiritus'/breath......we breather, we are conscious

what do i think 'it' is?

well, as i say --presently i am understanding that consciousness cannot be measured. so if you cant measure some'thing' you cannot really pin it down, like you could a chemical interaction, where you can measure te ineraction, chemicals involved, where you are doing the experiemcne t etc

consciousnessis how matter energy FEELS. and i agee with de Quincey. and anceint poples ho hd insight into primal animism thatALL matterpenergy is sentient

when i was 15, i was given LSD. and te first thing i noticed was how i felt, and how matter looked. it looked extraordinarily alive. it is hard to explain to someone who hasn't exprienced ti wat it is like, because it is not te feeling of an observer looking 'out' objectively AT such phenomena. te subject is just as involved. to put it moe succintll, observer and observed are one

such experiences completely fascinted me, and were to inspire me to really start exploring about whatit meant. which i still do

so consciouness is very very strange in that it cannot be measured yet is te interconnctor between all matter energy. te deeper you go. the more you are open To consciousness, te more you are deeper involved wit perception, hearing, touch, feeling etc.sensuality

i would be interested to know of your siritual experience. how it came about etc. but you dont HAV to tell me if you dont want. seriously

OK, so it's consciousness. That ends when you die. It's a product of the brain working, like the music that comes out of a piano when it's being played. Stop playing the piano, and the music stops too.

OK, so it's consciousness. That ends when you die.

me::doe 'it' en for ME when 'you' die?

It's a product of the brain working, like the music that comes out of a piano when it's being played. Stop playing the piano, and the music stops too.
so, you are saying consciousness is a 'product' OF the brain?

Yes, because if the brain is damaged, so are our cognitive abilities. If we expose the brain to chemicals, we experience different things, so I think consciousness is merely the noise that the machinery makes while it is running.

"consciousness is a 'product' OF the brain"

Hell yeah! I agree with that.

Interesting words you have typed Meanwhile. Many artists have covered their great works with inferior work, not being true critics themselves.

Yes, because if the brain is damaged, so are our cognitive abilities. If we expose the brain to chemicals, we experience different things, so I think consciousness is merely the noise that the machinery makes while it is running.
whatsoever we experence we are STILL conscious. also there have been NDE cases of 'braindeath' when the person has been conscious 'out of the body'! before 'returning'.

... so I think consciousness is merely the noise that the machinery makes while it is running.

If consciousness is merely a noise generated through normal operation of the machine then what is the operation that is causing this noise?

Thanks

c20

whatsoever we experence we are STILL conscious. also there have been NDE cases of 'braindeath' when the person has been conscious 'out of the body'! before 'returning'.
I assume you are talking about cases where there is no electrical activity in the brain and they still have a nde. How do we know that they didn't have the nde as the electrical activity was ceasing? ... and/or beginning again?

How are they able to confirm that the experience happened at the time that the brain was 'dead'?

I assume you are talking about cases where there is no electrical activity in the brain and they still have a nde. How do we know that they didn't have the nde as the electrical activity was ceasing? ... and/or beginning again?

me::maybe because NDEr actually is conscious 'outside' at the TIME of 'braindeath' ie., no electrical activity. the essential point being that consciousness is now not seming to look out of the physical eye-brain of experiencer, but seemsto be ...expanded?

How are they able to confirm that the experience happened at the time that the brain was 'dead'?
i am presuming that experincer would be able to judge this, if they WERE conscious. also check this:
http://members.lycos.nl/Kritisch/noactivebrain.html

i am presuming that experincer would be able to judge this, if they WERE conscious.
But they are not conscious.

But they are not conscious.
but they obviouly are if they say they were conscious when body seems brain dead....?,,,othewise how could they see themselves lying there etc etc, IF they were not conscious?

but they obviouly are if they say they were conscious when body seems brain dead....?,,,othewise how could they see themselves lying there etc etc, IF they were not conscious?
I think I was using 'conscious' differently to you duendy.

Anyway my question is, how are they able to tell that the experience happened at the time that they were 'brain dead' ? It could have happened before or after..

Also there is a the question of how you can see anything without light hitting your retina. hmm

I think I was using 'conscious' differently to you duendy.

me::i know. we have to definethe term better

Anyway my question is, how are they able to tell that the experience happened at the time that they were 'brain dead' ? It could have happened before or after..

me:: i have heard that similar can happen when not 'dead', and when haven taken psychelics, which includs Ketamine, which is more a dissociative rather than a psychedelic

so what does that mean?.......also before i foget, Stan Grof' s wife, Christina had an experienceof her consciousness expandng and 'blendng with theothe people and environment who came to her person after a car crash

Also there is a the question of how you can see anything without light hitting your retina. hmm
or, how does consciousness seem to exist apart from brain?
how do you feel about Nature being sentient?

or, how does consciousness seem to exist apart from brain?
how do you feel about Nature being sentient?
What I am saying is that I don't think the stories of NDEs prove that the consciousness exists apart from the brain.

What do you mean by nature being sentient?

What I am saying is that I don't think the stories of NDEs prove that the consciousness exists apart from the brain.

me::to actually know one would have tp come back from te dead...ie., after REALLYbeing dead. and that's not likely. as i have said elsewhere, Indigenous people very much struggled with Christiany's idea of the 'soul' as it was preached by the missionaries case they understand soul to mean as intimately a part of Nature. not as some cut-off ting that can go to 'heafen' or 'hell' for the Indigenous worldview wqs usually animist

What do you mean by nature being sentient?

it means that all matter-energy has feeling. is not wat classcial and even modern science (mainstream) usually tells us. I.e., that matter-energy is blind energy with no inner awareness.
Rather what i am exploring is that that belief is originating in a mindset which is cut off from its OWN intrinsic feeling, tus it projects tat mindset onto Nature. dead bodymind looks at dead Nature!

It sure points out the seemingly brain dead here in this thread,,, FOCLMFAO

And, here I thought this was about Disclosure Conclusions?

It sure points out the seemingly brain dead here in this thread,,, FOCLMFAO

And, here I thought this was about Disclosure Conclusions?
i see....you are callin us braindead are you. charming i must say, but think on this. you are wrong, and yo reveal the signs of braindeadeness in tat you cannot see how tis would enrich a thread. rather than keep it to your strict dead linearlinesubjectmode

Brain dead = there are no aliens.

Brain active = there are aliens.

Duendy, I thought you were of the opinion that there are aliens?

A deluded brain is an active one. Just had to point that out.

Brain dead = there are no aliens.
me::i take it that in tis instance we are not talking abou 'brain dead' as in actual flatline, but metaphorcally referring to someone who is dead to life, understanding, feeling...?

Brain active = there are aliens.

me::thus your 'argument' is tat cause you yourself believe it is all about aliens that you are more alive thn people who dont

Duendy, I thought you were of the opinion that there are aliens?

no, what i am exploring is that tere is propbably a diversion being manipulated by secret services--CIA etc whih WANTS people to assume that behind all strange craft an abductions are 'aliens'. and that is why CIA funds both te debunkers of tis teory and the proliferators of this theory. and that that activity would lso be commensurate with teir backing oter so-called conflicting parties..........in ote words i am trying to see patterns, and not just focus on the 'ufo issue'......

however, i also dont discount te possibility of aliens. i ws for example intrigued by the Carlos Diaz experience

I think I may be on the verge of agreeing with duendy, ... which is odd. I'm sure various govt departments have used some quite way out cover stories before, and one of these backfired attempts is apparently 'Project Mogul' (Roswell.).

I think such exercises could be used as social litmus paper. If enough people can be swayed to believe in alien abduction, convincing even more people of the existence of WMD in Iraq in very doable.

So the simple answer is to always ask 'how does it benefit the giver of this news' when you are told a story. My motive here? To increase scepticism and inquiry, and ask for evidence, and encourage others to require the same.

The short story is, if you worry about aliens, WMD, and terrorists, you perhaps aren't focussed on civil rights, and Kyoto.

,,, and again, STDD.

Hope you love your job as much as I love mine phlogger :D

,,, and again, STDD.

Hope you love your job as much as I love mine phlogger :D

STDD? I am unaware of this acronym.

My job? I work in IT. That 'I' stands for 'information', not 'intelligence'. I'm flattered you think I'm some agent.

I have to be honest with you, I did once apply to work for MI5, but the money was sucky, for an IT job in the City.

Same Tactics, Different Day :D
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, duh?

Same Tactics, Different Day :D
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, duh?

Does that refer to me debunking you, or you repeating the same falshoods without any evidence Norv?

And like I said, I'm flattered you think I'm part of the Intelligence Community, when I'm just some IT geek who fiddles with computers for a living.

Allow me to remind you phloggy ;)

These cast down Bad ET's are deceivers, slanders, liars, and use these same tactics all the time. Same Tactics, Different Day STDD
ET's do not exist. Lie
UFO's do not exist. Lie
They can't get here because faster than light travel isn't possible. Lie
CS types of crater chains are not weapons strikes. Lie
Multi-Impact crater basins are not weapons of deep penetration. Lie
Big CS crater chains on big objects, little CS chains on little objects are not indicators of strategic usage of weapons. Lie
And the list goes on and on and on and on.

No, I doubt you are a part of the "Intelligence Community." :D

Craterchains, a while ago I asked a few questions. The topic quickly moved on - as it sometimes does - before you had addressed any. I was hoping you might do so now. Earlier in this thread I said:

Gosh, Craterchains, that's a lot to swallow all in one post. Please allow me to ask a few questions:

What are you waiting to be disclosed, and why is it inevitable?
Why do you think ETs are on Earth?
Do you really think that humans fall into such distinct and easily definable 'good and bad' groups?
Why do you assume that aliens do?

I'd like to add now:

What evidence do you have that faster-than-light travel is possible?
What evidence do you have that some craters on some bodies in our solar system were caused by weapons?

Thanks

Well, I guess my private chat with Laika answered all those questions.
But for those of you that weren't a part of that chat, here are the high lights.

The Bible.

yawns :rolleyes:

What evidence do we have for the possibility of travelling faster than light?
I dont believe it really falls into that category.
Its kind of like, what evidence do we have that we'll find a cure for Aids or Cancer.
There really isnt any direct "evidence" for it, just a strong plausibility of the advancements we have already made heading in that direction, makes it "reasonable" that it may eventually be achieved.

It amazes me that on a forum such as this with such intelligent people, even if in their own ways, have such limitations on what they think is possible even after all of the progress we have made in the last hundred years and how far we may have yet to discover and advance/grow/progress.

Just amazes me in a confusing kind of way.
And ya, I've seen aprox 30 of these mettalic crafts in broad daylight with a friend over Kelowna B.C. Canada.
Dont know "who" or "what" was controlling them....but I do know one thing,
...somethings up.
What a pain in the ass subject.
Something that has the potential to tremendously effect all of our lives to a very large degree, yet, I cant be bothered with it on a day to day basis.
I got a life to live.
And if and when "disclosure", or what ever you want to call it, does happen, it better not be an inconvenience ;)

What evidence do we have for the possibility of travelling faster than light?
I dont believe it really falls into that category.
Its kind of like, what evidence do we have that we'll find a cure for Aids or Cancer.
There really isnt any direct "evidence" for it, just a strong plausibility of the advancements we have already made heading in that direction, makes it "reasonable" that it may eventually be achieved.

It amazes me that on a forum such as this with such intelligent people, even if in their own ways, have such limitations on what they think is possible even after all of the progress we have made in the last hundred years and how far we may have yet to discover and advance/grow/progress.

me))))))))))))Me too. it is odd. but i feel te impasse is cause this 'progress' cannot realistically carry on in te dualistic/materialistic way it has done--asit is too destructive. for real radical change , consciousness is to having to be explored. is consciousness faster than ligght?....tis is just a question . might not mean anything

Just amazes me in a confusing kind of way.
And ya, I've seen aprox 30 of these mettalic crafts in broad daylight with a friend over Kelowna B.C. Canada.
Dont know "who" or "what" was controlling them....but I do know one thing,
...somethings up.
What a pain in the ass subject.
Something that has the potential to tremendously effect all of our lives to a very large degree, yet, I cant be bothered with it on a day to day basis.
I got a life to live.
And if and when "disclosure", or what ever you want to call it, does happen, it better not be an inconvenience ;)
ok, i want to quiz you on those UFOs you saw. what do you think? man-made?--as in secret technology? or Alien craft?

did they stay very still in formation?

if so, for how long?

In physics it has been stated "Mass can not travel faster than light", that means there will never be a spaceship that can break the light barrier by travelling in a straight line like a sprint course.

There are suggestions that it's possible for information to travel faster than light, because information doesn't have to have "Mass". It might even be possible to generate a "wormhole" that just links two points together where an object can travel between two points in space or time without actually having to break the Lightspeed rule.

However both suggestions are currently very "Fictional" and only have basis in theory until more practical testing as done and more results made public.

Awww shit Duendy, cant believe your makin me explain this....again.
As I said, It was in Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada.
Dam this has to be about 6 or 7 years ago now, summer of 1998.

My friend John and I were coming back from a store around 11am, grabbing a couple boxes of Kraft Dinner for lunch. It was a sunny day very few if any clouds in the sky. We were on the outside of the downtown core. On an elevated suburb looking over the city of Kelowna.
As we were walking up the street approaching our destination, a friends house that we were visiting, we were just talking away about whatever, when about 20ftft away from the walkway leading to the front door of the house house I happened to notice something up and out towwards the corner of my eye to the left. The house we were going to was on the left.
These were the connections my mind made in this order from what I remember.
There were also two kids playing at the base of a streetlight lamp post, both kind of squatting playing with whatever,
As we were walking I noticed the kids, then I noticed what I thought were soap bubbles up and to the left.
I remember automatically just assuming that they were soap bubbles, and that the kids must have been blowing them.
This whole thought process happened within a second.
But then as I looked directly at these bubbles........WHAM!
I dont know how to explain this...just going on about your every day life, everything is kind of just normal, natural,.....
I looked up at these bubbles, and the first thing I noticed was that they were not flowing like bubbles would be up that high in the air.
You know, sporadicaly. We've all seen bubbles, sheesh, so anyways....
Wham!
These were not bubbles.
There was around 30 of these bubbles in the air.
The reason I thought they were bubbles was because they were shiny mettalic discs.
But there was also visibly noticable forces around them.
Like a bubble.
You know how sunlight reflects off the top of bubbles.
Well here were these shiny mettalic crafts filling up the majority of the top half of these force fields.
Someone once asked me how I knew they were force fields, what the fuck else were they.
Anyways,..
As my mind suddenly became completely blank, unable to find ANY associations or references for what I was now witnessing, which is a very wierd state to be in, without taking my eyes off of them, I reached out with my right hand and assertively grasping for my friend, as I stopped he came right up beside me, my right hand came up onto his shoulder and with my left hand I pointed directly at these things and I said with an almost agressive questionability....."What the hell is that!?"
We both just stood there for probly around 6-7 seconds when my friend says,
"I dont know, tiny UFOS smaller than us?"
It was also wierd how he said it so non challantly.
we stood there for another 5 seconds, then he just walked off down into the house.
I kept standing there dumb founded, I looked bak over to the kids in an almost state of shock witnessing such an event while these two children were still in the same reality of innocence as when I first seen them just moments ago, so involved in their play while here were these crafts not even a kilometere away up in the air.
I looked at the kids for only a moment then back to the crafts, now the emotions were begining to over take me.
WTF!
I lost it.
I COULDN'T believe what I was seeing.
I forced my head down and started to walk towards the front door, telling myself...
"no way,... no way..., no...FUCKING...WAY"
As I put my hand on the door handle I stopped, and and said one more time..."NO.. FUCKING.. WAY!" I turned around and ran up back onto the street to engage this phenomenon with a newly resolved sense of confidence to deal with this actively.
But they were gone......and thats what really wierds me out.
What I mean by having a newly resolved sense of confidence to deal with it, I mean that if they were still there I probly would have started screaming for people to come out of their houses and come see these things instead of being overwhelmed and in a state of shock and disbeleif.

Like I said, there was at least 30 to 35 of these crafts, and they were all moving in an eerie unnatural mechanical motion, all in sync with eachother.
They were in the shape of an hour glass on its side.
Almost like they were continually drawing the number 8 sideways.
As for their size, if you held your arm out at length and then put your finger tips about 3/4 of a centimeter apart thats how big they appeared.
I beleive they were the size of cars or vehicles.
My friend thought they were smaller.
Shiny mettalic discs, your typical UFO shape, surrounded by a force field of some kind.


Now heres my subjective thoughts on it.
They way they were all moving in such pefect sync, to have that many of them, be that close toeach other, and maintain such sync while they performed the path of the number 8, blows my mind.
They eather had to all be controlled by a computer machine, or whatever/whoever was in those things had to of had some kind of psychic link or something.
Cant explain it.

Heres what really blows my mind if I think about it, and its really wierding me out right now because I dont usually think about this, is that the angle that they were "performing" and I say that because this 8 they were choreographing was right at me.
And when I ran back up to see them again they were gone.
I admit, that part could all be in my head thinking that they were in some way trying to communicate with me or my friend directly. Very subjective indeed.
Still......

And after all of that......life goes on.
Nothings changed.
Still gotta go to work, still chasing the women, and I still like to have fun.
Just cant be bothered with it on a day to day basis.

Anyways, thanks Duendy.
I still need to get this off my chest once and awhile, not many people I can really be serious about this with.
And to be honest, its the psuedoscience thread that brings me back.
It really is a weird place to be in after you see something like that.
You cant go back to what it was like before you saw it.
And even if it was just govenrment crafts, the fact that they are hiding such crafts, and for what purpose they would use them probly disturbs me even more.
But guessing what was in those crafts is pure assumption.

Personaly, for many reasons, I tend to lean towards the alien thing. ;)
But until I actually see these creatures with my own eyes, *shrug*

THANKs Momentum7 (has your 'name' got anything to do with that event?), a great accountof your and your friends experience.

How do you feel if -accosted by a materialist/'skeptic'--they 'inform you you must have 'false memory syndrome'----how woud you challenge such an accusation....or 'sleep paralysis' or being'whacko' or a 'liar'?

Just a heads up.

Kingdom of YHWH Summary Report for 2005

The chasm that has kept mankind fragmented and turned upon itself is about to go away. The two major reasons mankind is fragmented and divided can be traced to our governments and religions. The False Prophet, and the Beast that are to be shortly cast into the lake of fire brings to an end all of earth's governments and religions.
With that happening there is going to be turmoil and strife, with most not really comprehending what is happening. Not knowing the way out. Unless one understands why all of this is happening, and how it will happen, they will most likely fight against what many have been praying for. Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, and so on. Most will not be able to understand that this Kingdom of the Heavens is an Intergalactic Government. They will not be able to accept that their gods were actually extraterrestrial beings.
To accept these things for myself, and after watching a few learn and comprehend these same things from their own studies and research, was difficult enough, and yet we have managed to keep our sanity. Deception breeds confusion, confusion breeds insanity, but with perseverance the deceptions can be discovered and exposed. With out the confusion that these deceptions caused, reality becomes clear. It is not insane to believe what the evidence shows, although it is pure insanity to keep believing the lies and deceptions.
With the war in the heavens over, and the losers cast down to earth, we know that the end times are upon us for sure. But what will people do with no more politics to discuss, no more religious ideas to discuss. Just maybe they will have time to learn? Imagine a world with no political or religious strife, a world that is united in knowing what really happened to mankind and why. The real historical truth, the real truth in discovery (so called science), and no more squandering of our taxes.
I leave you with this final thought. Do not shoot at the space ships, nor the angels in them. With out questions, there are no answers, nor statements. With the return of King Jesus all will know that we are not alone in this universe. All will know the galaxy has a government and democracy is not it. All will know that ET and UFO's are very real. And, all will know just where our technological help has been coming from. The bad ET's that were cast down. The losers of that heavenly war.

Norval L. Cunningham


CONTACT by email; research@kingdomofyhwh.com
Posted; Nov. 27, 2005
Site opened on; April 23, 2001
© Recognized inalienable rights to intellectual materials. 1971 - 2005

Hey Duendy, My first response would be...Who cares?
I wouldn't expect anyone to believe me just cause I say so.
Thats just healthy.
I remember what I was like when stories of "UFO's" and the possibility of "Aliens" came up. I didn't really believe in them and I didn't really not believe in them....whatever right.

Nothing wrong with a bit of skepticsm.
There are two types of people in my opinion.

There are the "Pragmatists" and the "Believers".
I'm a pragmatist.
A pragmatist would be someone who may have seen or heard of these crafts, beings, or whatever the case may be, and be like, Ok, maybe they are, and maybe they aren't.
But are indeed open to further information on the subject.

Believers on the other hand, just simply believe that they dont exist....period.
That it HAD to be a balloon, or those people HAD to be under mind control, or just HAD to be anything other than possiblity of other life.
Weird.



I cant for sure say that there were "aliens" in those crafts, but I can and WILL say that I saw those crafts.
Its really funny Duendy, how when you hear something enough, you really do begin to believe it.
Some beleivers are really good at disecting a sighting or picture or someones account of an event, and by the time I'm done reading it I'm like, "They probly WERE balloons".
And actually having to remind myself of what I saw.
Thats why I do have to give some credit to those who continually share information on this topic in spite of these beleivers.

As well, I am defintely glad that I was with some one at the time of this sighting.....seriously.
I probly wouldn't have told this to anyone if I wasn't.
I know, a little weak, but I probly wouldn't have.

The beleivers are a wierd bunch, on both sides.
Theres also the believers that have never seen a craft or alien or whatever and "beleive".
Their both wacko, driven more by fear, ego, or emotion or something.
But I'm no psychiatrist so....

At the same time I have to admire those skeptics "as long as their not believers" that do challenge any claims that are a little out of the ordinary.
A lot of people can get sucked into some pretty sappy shit, losing them money, causing distress or in extreme cases costing them their lives like some of those occults.

But I may be getting off topic.
Like I have said, I'm a passive pragmatist.
I know what I saw, and whether they were alien or government craft, either way, I think that it is at the crux of a very large change in the way we live in comparison to the way things are going now.

But what can I do about it,.....nothing.
In my day to day life, what I saw really doesn't change a thing.
Wake up, brush my teeth, put one shoe on at a time...etc.
Still have to deal with work, relationships, and just trying to make the most out of my life.
Thinking about this too much causes me to kind of stall out.
Just because there is nothing I can do about it, besides come on this forum every once and awhile and share my story.

This topic is still a little taboo.
Although less and less.
And to directly awnser your question one more time, it would entirely depend on whether their enquiry came from a pragmatic perspective or a beleivers perspective.
From a pragmatic point of view, I would share my experiences.
But from a believers point of view,....whats the use, I would justt keep on doing what I was doing before they asked me.
You cant change a beleivers mind, no matter what topic or area it is in.
And besides, why would you want to?

Anyways, again, Aliens or Government....somethings up.
Peace


P.S. No, my names just a play on my last name, "Moe" with a slightly egocentric pun thrown in :D

right...i'd assumed something like ...you know when you said tose 8 UFOs wer kind oflike in momentum, thatyou had chosen your name like that but not actually said '8' for some reason.....hehe, i know tat must make sense

what happened for you and your friend ISimportant, vitally so. all Big Experiences are for they are like Trikster ways of seeping into our surieties UNsureities

http://www.alienresistance.org/disclosureproject_ufoharm.htm Disclosure Project, Dr. Greer is unfortunately playing all of us right into the hands of the very Shadow Government he warns of. These other non-essential (to Disclosure) pursuits are built upon a single faulty premise - that UFOs are not ever harmful.

New age poppycock.

http://www.alienresistance.org/disclosureproject_ufoharm.htm Disclosure Project, Dr. Greer is unfortunately playing all of us right into the hands of the very Shadow Government he warns of. These other non-essential (to Disclosure) pursuits are built upon a single faulty premise - that UFOs are not ever harmful.
UFOs destroying African villages wit a single beam...? thousands being killed by UFOs all over the world...? well. its settled then. they are fukin Americanas in
secret advanced spacecraft...! look at the evidence. whoe known for doing this in our OWN species.....? yip the U.S....nd UK. so/......? 2+2 = ..?

also dude rthink about what you wish for. already we are under threat from possible global poisoning by U.S and UK use of Depleted Uranium....we KNOW about Hiroshoma, Nagasaki, etc etc, Agent Prange, and all the utter horror of warfare. Now your suggesting we accumulate arms even more for war in SPACE...!...

Jeeeezuz. whatisyour mindset like? why ddo yu always need 'demons'...ifit aint te devil it gotta be space filled with evil aliens.....Sad

Its okay, duendy. You can say the "P" word :cool: