Anyone following the debate my post comments here.

Debate: Alien Abductions are Happening (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=75081)

[Moderator note: darksidZz and James R are the only people allowed to post in the Debate thread.]

Anyone following the debate my post comments here.

What debate would that be?

What debate would that be?

I've just posted the debate intro :D

could alien abductions REALLY be happening, couldnt at least some of the hundreds of people that claim to be abducted be taking to many drugs?

also where is the proof, why do we have to take they're word and not have the proove it al?

Remember, of all the hundreds of cases...only ONE of them has to be true.

Remember, of all the hundreds of cases...only ONE of them has to be true.

yes i know that, but we have yet no proof that aliens even excist even if millions of people belive, eample i ahve seen things that fly in the sky and for some reason people call them UFO'S only because you dont know what they are, why should they be alien related?

yes i know that, but we have yet no proof that aliens even excist even if millions of people belive, eample i ahve seen things that fly in the sky and for some reason people call them UFO'S only because you dont know what they are, why should they be alien related?
Thats a good question. If there are intelligent beings behind this phenomena why would we assume they are 'alien'.

Maybe they were here before us...maybe they dont travel through space at all but somehow fold in from another dimension.

As to the evidence, assuming there is a huge body of evidence in many forms going back several decades...how would you know if you dont look for it?

Thats a good question. If there are intelligent beings behind this phenomena why would we assume they are 'alien'.

Maybe they were here before us...maybe they dont travel through space at all but somehow fold in from another dimension.

As to the evidence, assuming there is a huge body of evidence in many forms going back several decades...how would you know if you dont look for it?

I'll answer after the debate ends otherwise I'd give him leverage over me.

I'll answer after the debate ends otherwise I'd give him leverage over me.
After reading James's rebuttal I think you already have some good leverage in this particular debate Darkz, namely in that you have obviously spent adequate time with the evidence.

This is a big advantage. Usually the reason people say theres no evidence is because they havent spent enough time looking at it.

Its a bit like a group of marine biologists saying that after months of exploration in a certain region they have discovered several new species...and another group of biologists (who didnt explore the region) saying these new species cant possibly exist because theyve never seen them.

After reading this debate, I just want to say "wow." Just wow.

My opinion of Darksidz has dramatically changed in just a week. Not only was his arguments well thought out and well written, but they were.... well written!

I'm so used to seeing nonsensical polls and off-topic threads that I hadn't realized his potential.


Good show, man!

you kidding right
i thought james thrashed his ass

oh my
i see

who the hell is darksidzz anyway

an alien.

2 questions:

1. Who won the debate?
2. Are alien abductions really happening???

an alien.

:bravo::roflmao::D

I was abducted once by an alien!!,..she was from Poland!

I was abducted once by an alien!!,..she was from Poland!

Must have been one of those illegal aliens, huh?:shrug:

2 questions:

1. Who won the debate?
2. Are alien abductions really happening???

You can make up your own mind about those things.

Since aliens supposedly are so advanced there is no way to prove or disprove the idea that a man has been abducted. Just because I have a highly detailed real feeling dream that I woke up floating in the air with an alien at my doorway, doesn't mean it actually happened. I've had hundreds of dreams that were so close to real that there was no way to know that they weren't real, except for the fact that I wake up in my bed every morning.... :) hahaha

Conclusively, no one CAN win this debate.

You can make up your own mind about those things.

I think there should be a poll after each debate or an objective judge if there is such a thing declaring the verdict...

I like to be told what's going on...

I like to be told what's going on...

But you are being told lies, half truths and embellishments all of the time so how can you believe what anyone "reports" when it's all a fabrication of reality just to get your interest up?

more than a billion stars could fit on a grain of sand if you hold it to the sky. Most certainly the god's being defined as superior beings have studied us. Proof of this matter is the ongoing genetic program they have. Genetic pools only get smaller. How has ours grown?

I would like to say I don't believe in aliens what so ever. I even laugh about it when the topic comes up.

But.......
After watching that movie Fire in the Sky I feel somewhat on edge when we are out in the middle of nowhere in the pitch dark and see something really weird in the sky. :o

I would like to say I don't believe in aliens what so ever. I even laugh about it when the topic comes up.

don't laugh, thousands of people are getting abducted. read these reports, they are scary: http://www.iwasabducted.com/abductionboard/abductionboard.htm

ufo that looks like an alien spacecraft: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H6sEbDLb1o

in this age of materialism and technology, we expect to see "aliens", so that's why we see aliens. it all started in the 1950s, and back then they made lots of UFO movies. before our modern age, we saw fairies. if you study some folklore you can find clear similarities between them and these "aliens" that we see nowadays. they also used to abduct people.

it was probably the nazis (1940s) who started all this. they made UFOs that looked like flying saucers. people thought they were spacecrafts. the nazi-age was a time of great change, maybe like the year 2012 will be.

http://www.naziufos.com/

if you want to understand how fairies can turn into grey aliens, and dragons and flying carpets turn into ufos (spacecrafts), learn about the astral realm and ethereal worlds.

Thats a good question. If there are intelligent beings behind this phenomena why would we assume they are 'alien'.

Maybe they were here before us...maybe they dont travel through space at all but somehow fold in from another dimension.

As to the evidence, assuming there is a huge body of evidence in many forms going back several decades...how would you know if you dont look for it?
Do you know the definition of ''alien?''

I would like to say I don't believe in aliens what so ever. I even laugh about it when the topic comes up.

But.......
After watching that movie Fire in the Sky I feel somewhat on edge when we are out in the middle of nowhere in the pitch dark and see something really weird in the sky. :o
That movie was made by people who either experienced contact or worked closely with people who did. You can feel it.

Check out this OP Ed by Nick Pope, the author of "Open Skies, Closed Minds," was in charge of U.F.O. investigations for the British Ministry of Defense from 1991 to 1994. from yesterday:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/29/opinion/edpope.php
I realize this does not address the abduction theory directly, but it combats the knee jerk dismissal of UFO sightings which run on the same psychology as the dismissals of abductions.

Yorda your sentiment that popular culture is solely responsible for the increasing interest / awareness of UFO's or Abductions is echoed by many people. However it was David Jacobs who first made me aware that the opposite might be true. Popular Culture merely picked up on something already happening for a long time and then it picked more momentum up as it permeated through. Even more scary is his assertion that because abductions are increasing in number the popular culture is becoming more aware of this.... I doubt popular culture is solely the culprit in either event :P

is that not how it usually works? the fringe goes mainstream? a whisper becomes a shout?

"opposite might be true"?

nigger please
this is an instance where conventional wisdom actually holds its own

we expect to see "aliens",


ja
lets demand rsvp's too
who the hell here "expects"?
since when is it a goddamn given that they exist and, hang in the hood?


But you are being told lies, half truths and embellishments all of the time so how can you believe what anyone "reports" when it's all a fabrication of reality just to get your interest up?


ja
people have gone to the moon. saddam had wmd's

/state of disbelief and confusion

Yorda your sentiment that popular culture is solely responsible for the increasing interest / awareness of UFO's or Abductions is echoed by many people. However it was David Jacobs who first made me aware that the opposite might be true. Popular Culture merely picked up on something already happening for a long time and then it picked more momentum up as it permeated through. Even more scary is his assertion that because abductions are increasing in number the popular culture is becoming more aware of this.... I doubt popular culture is solely the culprit in either event :P

I'm truly interested in this topic, but because science (as far as we know) has yet to find any evidence beyond eye-witness accounts, personal experiences etc. then in some ways it does seem silly to contemplate...yet...

Obviously, whether or not aliens are actually abducting people, it is a phenomena that is happening to many people all over the world from different cultures and backgrounds with many of them reporting the same situations, characterstics, experiences etc. without having any previous knowledge of such.

I have to agree when you say that reported abductions by otherworldly beings have been happening long before the term "alien" and "UFO" was ever used. Fairies, Goblins, Elves, Air-ships, God/esses, demons, Angels, succubus/incubus etc. and there has been evidence of these reports documented throughout history.

Whatever is actually happening, I don't think we can just deny that it's happening at all just because of lack of evidence. Obviously something is at play, but what? If it is some kind of not yet understood psychological phenomena or what...who knows...but not everyone who has claimed abduction has done it for noteriety...in fact many people don't want to report such things because they don't want to be seen as crazy. And if it is a combo of sleep paralysis/dreams or night terrors, why do they all share the same characteristics, what causes people to think that Greys are taking them away for experimentation or whatever, what purpose would it serve?

There have been cases where entire groups of people have experienced the phenomena or entire families, even very young children. If they all planned it as a hoax it would take serious and rigorous group cooperation and lots of hard work, all for what...15 minutes of fame in which they will then be doubted, accused, ostracized, called crazy etc? It seems too pointless.

Anyway, I think completely denying something is happening is foolish and damaging to the people it happens too. Lack of evidence sucks, but maybe in the future some will be found. It's safer to think that aliens don't exist and that abductions are not happening because then we don't have to fear it. But what if they are? What would that mean for our world?

I'm truly interested in this topic, but because science has yet to find any evidence beyond eye-witness accounts, personal experiences etc. then in some ways it does seem silly to contemplate.Does that mean we should abandon our legal system...which accepts eye witness accounts as evidence?

Does that mean we should abandon our legal system...which accepts eye witness accounts as evidence?

EXACTLY!! Great point. No, I don't think we should abandon our legal system...I mean think of how many crimes have been solved because of eye-witness testimony. Someone says they saw a rape, science can investigate, gather evidence, collect samples...put the pieces together. Rape happens all the time. People report being raped so often, or we hear about it so often, that it is no longer unintelligible to us.

So why is it, when someone says "hey, last night my family and I were abducted by aliens. We all saw the UFO. It came down and took us. Our neighbors saw it too, but the aliens didn't take them" everyone runs around calling them crazy? It sounds crazy. But then forcing someone to have brutal and sometimes fatal sexual relations against their will sounds crazy to me too.

Obviously enough people have said they've been abducted by aliens that it is a world-wide phenomena, but still considered pseudoscience. Why? What if it is really happening? If it isn't, why do so many people keep saying it is happening to them? Why doesn't their eye-witness testimony count for anything?

And that is one way to look at the issue:
it is a very strange phenomenon.

You can sit at home and assume that the people who claim to have been abducted all fit your mental image of the brain addled person who makes such claims. But actually you will meet a wide range of people, many of whom are very rational about, well, pretty much most issues, people who hold down jobs, many of them professionals, whether blue collar or white collar, have familes and complicated social lives, etc. And when they sit there, one after another soberly and often reluctantly describing their experiences, you will have to reevaluate.

Do I mean you will then believe there are aliens abducting? No. I am sure the effects of this kind of repeated encounter would vary.

But, you would, at least most of you, be convinced that something very odd is going on in most countries around the world, whether physical, mental or whatever. Something is happening that gnaw at you. How could so many otherwise rational people end up claiming to have these experiences?

What does that mean? (this is a rhetorical question. I know all the explanations that explain away the phenomenon and reassure the one who believe their hypotheses - made as little armchair generals with no experience at all of the people they hypothesize about .

It is always amazing how people who think experience is a poor way to develop knowledge somehow allow themselves to use
lack of experience
as the basis of their theories.

And that is one way to look at the issue:
it is a very strange phenomenon.

You can sit at home and assume that the people who claim to have been abducted all fit your mental image of the brain addled person who makes such claims. But actually you will meet a wide range of people, many of whom are very rational about, well, pretty much most issues, people who hold down jobs, many of them professionals, whether blue collar or white collar, have familes and complicated social lives, etc. And when they sit there, one after another soberly and often reluctantly describing their experiences, you will have to reevaluate.

Do I mean you will then believe there are aliens abducting? No. I am sure the effects of this kind of repeated encounter would vary.

But, you would, at least most of you, be convinced that something very odd is going on in most countries around the world, whether physical, mental or whatever. Something is happening that gnaw at you. How could so many otherwise rational people end up claiming to have these experiences?

What does that mean? (this is a rhetorical question. I know all the explanations that explain away the phenomenon and reassure the one who believe their hypotheses - made as little armchair generals with no experience at all of the people they hypothesize about .

It is always amazing how people who think experience is a poor way to develop knowledge somehow allow themselves to use
lack of experience
as the basis of their theories.

I agree. Many people who have had abduction experiences are just average people trying to live their lives who have had something happen to them that they can't explain and when they try to explain it people call them crazy and science shuts the proverbial door in their face. What else are people supposed to think?

Obviously it's wide-spread enough that people can't deny the existence of the phenomena, but no one WANTS to believe. It's much easier to say 'oh, they had a bad acid trip' or 'maybe their insane' or 'they just want fame'...but what about the people who don't even want to report their experiences? We have support groups offered for abductee victims and yet no real scientific back-up to the existence of the phenomena? It seems odd to me.

Obviously enough people have said they've been abducted by aliens that it is a world-wide phenomena, but still considered pseudoscience. Why?

because science doesn't know what it is. science studies the physical world, but the alien abduction and UFO phenomena are beyond the physical world. pseudoscience = beyond science.


Greys

The very earliest reports of entities involved primarily humanlike beings. And while the human types in the form of the blond 'Nordics' were once responsible for about a quarter of the total cases, since the 1960s they have not been quite as common. Similarly, the hairy dwarfs that were reported so frequently in the 1950s are rather infrequent in contemporary accounts.
... [P]rior to 1987, when Whitley Strieber's Communion and Budd Hopkins's Intruders were published in England, less than a quarter of the entities reported in Britain's abduction cases were of the small, bald-headed entities. But after the books appeared there, more than half of the cases involved the 'American standardized alien' ... Because American abduction cases get more publicity than any other such cases, it seems as if the image of the Gray has been more or less imposed on the rest of the world as the standard alien type. [2]

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/ufo3.htm#u7

Alien abductions? What scientific evidence do we have?

because science doesn't know what it is. science studies the physical world, but the alien abduction and UFO phenomena are beyond the physical world. pseudoscience = beyond science.



The very earliest reports of entities involved primarily humanlike beings. And while the human types in the form of the blond 'Nordics' were once responsible for about a quarter of the total cases, since the 1960s they have not been quite as common. Similarly, the hairy dwarfs that were reported so frequently in the 1950s are rather infrequent in contemporary accounts.
... [P]rior to 1987, when Whitley Strieber's Communion and Budd Hopkins's Intruders were published in England, less than a quarter of the entities reported in Britain's abduction cases were of the small, bald-headed entities. But after the books appeared there, more than half of the cases involved the 'American standardized alien' ... Because American abduction cases get more publicity than any other such cases, it seems as if the image of the Gray has been more or less imposed on the rest of the world as the standard alien type. [2]

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/ufo3.htm#u7

It seems not much is beyond science these days unless people want it to stay there. I've read Communion...found it fascinating...still, it doesn't prove anything. I used Greys for lack of a better term. How about Alien Being.

Obviously it's wide-spread enough that people can't deny the existence of the phenomena, but no one WANTS to believe. It's much easier to say 'oh, they had a bad acid trip' or 'maybe their insane' or 'they just want fame'...but what about the people who don't even want to report their experiences? We have support groups offered for abductee victims and yet no real scientific back-up to the existence of the phenomena? It seems odd to me.

Actually its not nearly as widespread as those whose livelihoods depend on ufo book royalties etc would have you beleive.

here's some real numbers and real analysis for you:

(Taken from "The Science of the Discworld" by Terry Pratchwet, Ian Stewart, and Jack Cohen)


Ufologists allege that one american in twenty now claims to have undergone such an experience, (but they would, wouldn't they?). If true this figure would be a remarkable and not very happy comment either on the critical faculties of that great nation, or on the habits of an unknown spacefaring species.
As it happens, the figure is bogus. It originates from a 1994 Roper poll, which revealed that 1 american in 50 had undergone such an experience. But, as Joel Best pointed out in his book "Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics" in 2001, the number of people who actuially claimed to have been abducted by aliens was actually zero. The pollsters, worried that a direct question about aliens would put people off, used 5 'symptoms' of abduction instead. Anyone who scored suffciently highly on those symptons was deemed by the pollsters to have undrgone an abduction experience.
The questions were things like "Have you ever woken up paralysed with the sense of some strange presence in the room?"This sensation is typical of sleep paralysis, the most obvious and rational explanation of abduction experiences. So really the Roper poll was a survey about sleep paralysis. Only the researchers thought it had anything to do with alien abduction. The subjects had more sense.

That movie was made by people who either experienced contact or worked closely with people who did. You can feel it.

Maybe, but they made it all up pretty much. His real story(Travis Walton), was not quite so scary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Walton

Maybe, but they made it all up pretty much. His real story(Travis Walton), was not quite so scary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Walton
the account you linked me to matches the movie very well. There is no metal thing lowered into his eye. Most of the rest of it fits.

and by the way. If even just that first portion of the experience happened to me - either in the role of Travis or one of the guys in the truck - I would probably shit in my pants. Then being in a room with what seem to be intelligent creatures who are not human....? Come on.

One person mentioned the below item, I reply here as well for you all to see.

Oh yes, I am aware of this poll. I'm also aware that the people had to answer just more than 1 of those questions in a positive manner. Now normally you'd expect them to answer yes to a few, but 5? This is why they took it as a significance they may have undergone abductions. I can go on but I will review the debate thread so far and possibly comment there.


Hi - I don't get on here much at the moment but I did spot your debate with JR on alien abduction - here's an exerpt from a book I read recently "The Science of the Discworld" by Terry Pratchet, Ian Stewart, and Jack Cohen.

Ufologists allege that one american in twenty now claims to have undergone such an experience, (but they would, wouldn't they?). If true this figure would be a remarkable and not very happy comment either on the critical faculties of that great nation, or on the habits of an unknown spacefaring species.

As it happens, the figure is bogus. It originates from a 1994 Roper poll, which revealed that 1 american in 50 had undergone such an experience. But, and Joel Best pointed out in his book "Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics" in 2001, the number of people who actuially claimed to have been abducted by aliens was actually zero. The pollsters, worried that a direct question about aliens would put people off, used 5 'symptoms' of abduction instead. Anyone who scored suffciently highly on those symptons was deemed by the pollsters to have undrgone an abduction experience.
The questions were things like "Have you ever woken up paralysed with the sense of some strange presence in the room?". This sensation is typical of sleep paralysis, the most obvious and rational explanation of abduction experiences. So really the Roper poll was a survey about sleep paralysis. Only the researchers thought it had anything to do with alien abduction. The subjects had more sense.

What has to be understood here is simple. Abductions are clandestine attempts to cover-up while initiating contact with our species, therefore one would expect there to be a lack of credible reports. But even so read my debate and if you have some logic you'll see the arguments are reasonable in a sci-fish way.

the account you linked me to matches the movie very well. There is no metal thing lowered into his eye. Most of the rest of it fits.

and by the way. If even just that first portion of the experience happened to me - either in the role of Travis or one of the guys in the truck - I would probably shit in my pants. Then being in a room with what seem to be intelligent creatures who are not human....? Come on.

Ya I think, most people would shit their pants.

Why I would personally doubt Travis' story (me being more of a "Believer", open minded about it at least), is he seems to mix two parts of the modern alien mythology. The Nordic Pleiadians and the Zeta-Reticuli Grey's in his story. From the testimonies and information I have perused on this, these two (separate "Species") do not cooperate and have different philosophy's regarding interacting with humanity. I'm not a ufologist, but a casual interest, so I might be wrong about that.

Has anyone seen a real scientific analysis of a UFO abduction (or even a UFO for that matter) in a reputable scientific journal?
Carl Sagan's book "The demon haunted world, science as a candle in the dark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World)" helps clarify matters on UFO abductions. ;)

Has anyone seen a real scientific analysis of a UFO abduction (or even a UFO for that matter) in a reputable scientific journal?
Carl Sagan's book "The demon haunted world, science as a candle in the dark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World)" helps clarify matters on UFO abductions. ;)Carl Sagan analyzed a phenomenon without even talking directly to the people who had the experiences. Unlike a good scientist he decided that sitting at home playing with syllogisms was a good way to investigate something.

Carl Sagan analyzed a phenomenon without even talking directly to the people who had the experiences. Unlike a good scientist he decided that sitting at home playing with syllogisms was a good way to investigate something.


heh
he aint too bad

"At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under minor sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation. I pick these claims not because I think they are likely to be valid (I don't), but as examples of contentions that might be true. The last three have at least some, although still dubious, experimental support." (Carl Sagan - The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark)
as a reincarnated telepath, i am glad sagan supports me

as a reincarnated telepath, i am glad sagan supports me And since you speak of him in the present tense, you, as a telepath can sense the toddler in his or her new life, continuing to 'broadcast' his support.

But nice to know CS had an open mind if not an open experiencer
about some things.

Has anyone seen a real scientific analysis of a UFO abduction (or even a UFO for that matter) in a reputable scientific journal?


no, but you are welcome to share
thanks


And since you speak of him in the present tense, you, as a telepath can sense the toddler in his or her new life, continuing to 'broadcast' his support.


well, duh!

well, duh! (psst:that was for the gallery. We know, but....

Couldn't you see my astral wink?)

Hey guys, watch this series of videos on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwMObFmOQl0

You'll find them fascinating.

Hey guys, watch this series of videos on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwMObFmOQl0
Good series I havent seen before. Thanks for posting!

Pay particular attention to the 3rd in the series, he mentions he was brought before a being that was so terrifying he felt like dust. He then goes on to say he thought it was something people weren't supposed to see + that is resembled a preying mantis / grasshopper. This is exactly what the real aliens look like, they merely created the Greys through their first attempts at blending our species together.

This one about a mass sighting in Africa is unique because the 62 subjects are all children:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctimRp7VKU4&feature=related

Wow that video with the kids is awesome.

I like the point they make that Africa has limited exposure to media, and thus UFOs. So you cant really blame it on that.

could alien abductions REALLY be happening, couldnt at least some of the hundreds of people that claim to be abducted be taking to many drugs?

also where is the proof, why do we have to take they're word and not have the proove it al?

hahaha this is a fun subject.

What if aliens only visit people who do drugs because they know their credibility has been destroyed by the illegal chemicals? :p

This one about a mass sighting in Africa is unique because the 62 subjects are all children:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctimRp7VKU4&feature=related

ohhh shit, thats sends chills up and down my spine. Do we need to God-Send some military to Zimbabwe to see wtf is going on in Africa? ha... as if we lead-gun carrying monkeys could do anything about it?

However, what the little girl said I found most interesting, she thinks they were warning us not to become too advanced in technology...

Technology often does create problems.

Hey guys, watch this series of videos on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwMObFmOQl0

You'll find them fascinating.

This series has been removed from YouTube. Could you possibly tell me the name of it as i would really like to watch it.

I am presently looking into the Ruwa Incident with the 62 kids in Africa in '94, but I would love to see this series you recommended.

Thanks!