Briefly, it is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Act

I have my own opinion on putting children of illegal immigrants before legal immigrants in the endless line for green cards, and about crowding our already overcrowded schools with illegal kids and potentially denying spots to legal kids (can you guess what my opinion is yet?) but I would still like to see what everyone else has to say.

The DREAM act has been killed twice so far over the past few years, but it may come up again this year and a lot of people believe it may pass.

I think that would open up a BIG loophole, but I can see their line of thinking.

I don't have a problem with it. They are achieving students who will be an asset to the country.

Any time you suppress the rights of the law abiding citizens with ways to abridge their status you are going against the Constitutions way of reasoning and that's just plain WRONG. No one should be able to get ahead of any law biding immigrant anytime, anywhere in America.

Any time you suppress the rights of the law abiding citizens with ways to abridge their status you are going against the Constitutions way of reasoning and that's just plain WRONG. No one should be able to get ahead of any law biding immigrant anytime, anywhere in America.

what about countries in america outside the USA. Would that be ok?

what about countries in america outside the USA. Would that be ok?

I do not understand your question.

consider is non-existent then.

consider is non-existent then.

I'd like to respond to your question if I only understood it better, sorry.

I don't get what's so bad about it. Kids who were forced to move here, complete the American School system, and attend college here. They still have to pay the same penalty adults do, even though they didn't choose to come here. I don't believe in "sins of the father". They're going to stay here anyway and drain on the system, might as well make them a part of it and make them pay their dues as well. They can put their college education to good use or serve in the US military. Most likely their children and spouse will be American citizens anyway. And if they are paying their taxes, then I don't really have anything to complain about.

I don't get what's so bad about it. Kids who were forced to move here, complete the American School system, and attend college here. They still have to pay the same penalty adults do, even though they didn't choose to come here. I don't believe in "sins of the father". They're going to stay here anyway and drain on the system, might as well make them a part of it and make them pay their dues as well. They can put their college education to good use or serve in the US military. Most likely their children and spouse will be American citizens anyway. And if they are paying their taxes, then I don't really have anything to complain about.

Well let's see...

Immigrating to the USA is very hard now and the list is endless. Legal immigrants have to wait many years to immigrate here, if they ever are allowed at all. If the people legally applying can't get legal status... then why should *illegal* children of illegal immigrants? It is true that it is not the kids' fault for coming here at age 5 or whatever, but when these kids turned 18, they knew that they were overstaying and that they faced deportation. That is why illegal immigration becomes a crime for them only after they turn 18, in the eyes of the law. If they don't leave after turning 18, they face a 10 year ban. We would essentially be putting lawbreakers at the head of the line for green cards, before legal applicants. That doesn't seem ridiculous or unfair to you?

You must think about this from the perspective other than the beneficiaries of the act. Legal immigrants and their kids have to defer gratification before doing the things the illegals will be allowed to through such an act. If anybody should be allowed to be schooled here, shouldn't they be? After all, they are the legal ones? Don't their hopes and dreams count too, if not more? Those legal kids want to go to school here too, or maybe join our military... but we'd tell them to wait while we get our illegal children of illegals through first, just because "they were already here illegally?" That makes no sense and if anything that should be counted against you. It's a huge insult to every legal immigrant and their kids... and it would simply make immigrating here illegally more attractive than immigrating here legally!

By the way, state schools are crowded and room is limited. It would be morally wrong to potentially aust a legal citizen whose parents have been paying taxes their whole lives, for an illegal alien student who already got a free ride from K to 12.

You are acting like the kids of illegals don't have a choice and and that being "illegal" is a punishment. But the USA didn't do this to them: their parents did. And they do have a choice: to go to their country of origin, where they are citizens.

what about countries in america outside the USA. Would that be ok?
I do not understand your question.
America is a continent. (Or two continents if you prefer.)
America contains many countries.
Perhaps you meant the United States.
Would that be Los Estados Unidos de Mexico?

In short tuberculatious's question was designed, I believe, to highlight the self centred arrogance that bedevils the USA and helps to create her global unpopularity. The question and your predictable response also gave all us non-USA types a good laugh.

I reject the notion that I designed a question and I prefer the hypothesis that it was spontaneously generated.

Well let's see...

Immigrating to the USA is very hard now and the list is endless. Legal immigrants have to wait many years to immigrate here, if they ever are allowed at all. If the people legally applying can't get legal status... then why should *illegal* children of illegal immigrants? It is true that it is not the kids' fault for coming here at age 5 or whatever, but when these kids turned 18, they knew that they were overstaying and that they faced deportation. That is why illegal immigration becomes a crime for them only after they turn 18, in the eyes of the law. If they don't leave after turning 18, they face a 10 year ban. We would essentially be putting lawbreakers at the head of the line for green cards, before legal applicants. That doesn't seem ridiculous or unfair to you?

You must think about this from the perspective other than the beneficiaries of the act. Legal immigrants and their kids have to defer gratification before doing the things the illegals will be allowed to through such an act. If anybody should be allowed to be schooled here, shouldn't they be? After all, they are the legal ones? Don't their hopes and dreams count too, if not more? Those legal kids want to go to school here too, or maybe join our military... but we'd tell them to wait while we get our illegal children of illegals through first, just because "they were already here illegally?" That makes no sense and if anything that should be counted against you. It's a huge insult to every legal immigrant and their kids... and it would simply make immigrating here illegally more attractive than immigrating here legally!

By the way, state schools are crowded and room is limited. It would be morally wrong to potentially aust a legal citizen whose parents have been paying taxes their whole lives, for an illegal alien student who already got a free ride from K to 12.

You are acting like the kids of illegals don't have a choice and and that being "illegal" is a punishment. But the USA didn't do this to them: their parents did. And they do have a choice: to go to their country of origin, where they are citizens.

I still don't get what that has to do with anything. They are already here, already got a free ride and obviously have no intention to leave, unless they plan to run away from home on the eve of their 18th birthday. So instead of the government doing the excellent job it's already doing, preventing illegal immigrants from living in the country, it saves more tax payer money for these people to become citizens and pay taxes too. It gives them an outlet to do so without the criminal record. Since America obviusly has a high demand for illegal immigrant workers, we might need to meet in the middle some where, stop treating just the symptoms and not the cause.

It's better than than leaving them in limbo being a drain.

I still don't get what that has to do with anything. They are already here, already got a free ride and obviously have no intention to leave, unless they plan to run away from home on the eve of their 18th birthday. So instead of the government doing the excellent job it's already doing, preventing illegal immigrants from living in the country, it saves more tax payer money for these people to become citizens and pay taxes too. It gives them an outlet to do so without the criminal record. Since America obviusly has a high demand for illegal immigrant workers, we might need to meet in the middle some where, stop treating just the symptoms and not the cause.

If you can't get how it's related, then you probably don't "get" much about this debate at all cutsie. Putting actual legal immigrant applicants and their kids in the back of the line for the endless list for green cards, in favor of illegal kids who shouldn't even have come over here is messed up. If you were a legal applicant waiting for five years to get into this country and saw all these illegal immigrants getting free permanent residence just because they want to go to school and "were already an illegal drain anyway" you would probably be outraged -- and rightly so. The illegals are getting rewarded with the reward that the LEGALS rightly deserve, just because they are good-for-nothing drains who refuse to go home. Maybe you don't quite understand how expensive, lengthy, and difficult the process to obtain a green card is these days. It's practically impossible if you don't have a blood relative or a company sponsor. That's why this is such a slap in the face to legal immigrants.

America does not have a high demand for illegal immigrant workers cutsie. Rather, illegal immigrant workers have a high demand for American labor. Don't get the two confused. The state I am living in now has almost ZERO illegal immigrants... and our economy is doing just fine. You need to try and free yourself from the "we need illegals to be our janitors" mentality. All the janitors in my town are white; they aren't mexicans.

There are legal applicants and their kids who can make up for the "drain" that the illegal kids have been their whole lives. There is limited room in this country and we can't house everyone in the world who wants to be here. That is why legals should ALWAYS come first. If you tell people that you can come illegally and still get citizenship, just because "you were already here illegally anyway for a long time" then why even call it illegal?

It's better than than leaving them in limbo being a drain.

There will be more drains here if anything like the DREAM act ever passes, pjdude. It doesn't solve the root problem. The act requires that you be here for 5 years before the DREAM act is enacted, in order to benefit. The kids of illegal immigrants who come afterward, being ineligible for the DREAM act, will be stuck in the same exact situation. This is trying to cure a symptom, not a cause. Unforunately that symptom will return -- in greater magnitude than ever before.

There will be more drains here if anything like the DREAM act ever passes, pjdude. It doesn't solve the root problem. The act requires that you be here for 5 years before the DREAM act is enacted, in order to benefit. The kids of illegal immigrants who come afterward, being ineligible for the DREAM act, will be stuck in the same exact situation. This is trying to cure a symptom, not a cause. Unforunately that symptom will return -- in greater magnitude than ever before.

yeah because its so much better to have them uneducated and not paying taxes.

If you can't get how it's related, then you probably don't "get" much about this debate at all cutsie. Putting actual legal immigrant applicants and their kids in the back of the line for the endless list for green cards, in favor of illegal kids who shouldn't even have come over here is messed up. If you were a legal applicant waiting for five years to get into this country and saw all these illegal immigrants getting free permanent residence just because they want to go to school and "were already an illegal drain anyway" you would probably be outraged -- and rightly so. The illegals are getting rewarded with the reward that the LEGALS rightly deserve, just because they are good-for-nothing drains who refuse to go home. Maybe you don't quite understand how expensive, lengthy, and difficult the process to obtain a green card is these days. It's practically impossible if you don't have a blood relative or a company sponsor. That's why this is such a slap in the face to legal immigrants.

America does not have a high demand for illegal immigrant workers cutsie. Rather, illegal immigrant workers have a high demand for American labor. Don't get the two confused. The state I am living in now has almost ZERO illegal immigrants... and our economy is doing just fine. You need to try and free yourself from the "we need illegals to be our janitors" mentality. All the janitors in my town are white; they aren't mexicans.

There are legal applicants and their kids who can make up for the "drain" that the illegal kids have been their whole lives. There is limited room in this country and we can't house everyone in the world who wants to be here. That is why legals should ALWAYS come first. If you tell people that you can come illegally and still get citizenship, just because "you were already here illegally anyway for a long time" then why even call it illegal?

I guess in your world it would be better for these people to starve or what not than come here illegally.

I guess in your world it would be better for these people to starve or what not than come here illegally.

Did he say he'd rather they starve?

It is possible to be of good moral character and not want illegal immigrants to swamp the USA. People starve all over the earth. Bad stuff happens. You can only do so much good (i.e. as much as you can without causing you to harm yourself), then tune the rest out.

~String

yeah because its so much better to have them uneducated and not paying taxes.

Some of them do pay taxes using an ITIN (look it up).

Yes, they are uneducated. That is their fault for overstaying in a country they know is not theirs. But we have our own citizens who are struggling to pay for college and get into the crowded state schools they want. They > illegal kids.

I guess in your world it would be better for these people to starve or what not than come here illegally.

The USA can't house the minority trash of the whole world, pjdude. There isn't enough for room for anyone who wants to come here, to come here. If we just opened our borders and let illegals with a wage difference of like 800% lower start running rampant in this country, then the economy of the USA would be no better than the foreign shitholes that these people came from. The reason this country is good is because we DON'T open our borders.

If you can't get how it's related, then you probably don't "get" much about this debate at all cutsie. Putting actual legal immigrant applicants and their kids in the back of the line for the endless list for green cards, in favor of illegal kids who shouldn't even have come over here is messed up. If you were a legal applicant waiting for five years to get into this country and saw all these illegal immigrants getting free permanent residence just because they want to go to school and "were already an illegal drain anyway" you would probably be outraged -- and rightly so. The illegals are getting rewarded with the reward that the LEGALS rightly deserve, just because they are good-for-nothing drains who refuse to go home. Maybe you don't quite understand how expensive, lengthy, and difficult the process to obtain a green card is these days. It's practically impossible if you don't have a blood relative or a company sponsor. That's why this is such a slap in the face to legal immigrants.

America does not have a high demand for illegal immigrant workers cutsie. Rather, illegal immigrant workers have a high demand for American labor. Don't get the two confused. The state I am living in now has almost ZERO illegal immigrants... and our economy is doing just fine. You need to try and free yourself from the "we need illegals to be our janitors" mentality. All the janitors in my town are white; they aren't mexicans.

There are legal applicants and their kids who can make up for the "drain" that the illegal kids have been their whole lives. There is limited room in this country and we can't house everyone in the world who wants to be here. That is why legals should ALWAYS come first. If you tell people that you can come illegally and still get citizenship, just because "you were already here illegally anyway for a long time" then why even call it illegal?

If all of your janitors, babysitters, and farm workers are white, then you don't live in an area that is overrun by illegal aliens. Employers don't want to hire citizens to do these jobs because then they have to pay them minimum wage and give them benefits like heath care or disability. Jobs like those go straight to illegal immigrants, I know because I was in the same looking for the same type of work and they beat me out everytime. Was it frustrating and unfair, yes it certainly was, but to say there is no demand is just ignorant. If people actually followed the law and never hired illegal people, there wouldn't be a large influx of illegal immigrants over here. They come for better work opportunities, if there weren't any jobs to be had then I'm sure they would rather have a job to support their families back home, than to be here all alone and homeless with no income whatsoever. The illegal people get deported and the company hires new illegal people to replace them. This is a two way street, if Americans hate having illegal immigrants in the country so much then they need to stop hiring them and boycott all of the places that do. Personally I think the immigrants who fall into this particular category should be given temporary citizenship after they turn 18 and they have so many years to complete all of the paperwork and test required to become an actual citizen or they have that many years to arrange something else if they don't want to stay or don't want to be citizens. Point is government knows who they are so they can't hide for long once their time is up.

I hadn't noticed you before Saven, so my response has been somewhat delayed while I cleaned up the vomit.
The USA can't house the minority trash of the whole world, pjdude. You are making an unwarranted and certainly unsubstantiated judgement that these individuals are trash.

Let's see what it entails to qualify as trash. You have to leave your home, your family, your friends and your familiar environment. You travel thousands of miles, often at great physical peril. You then work long hours, perhaps in dangerous conditions for a pittance of a wage, with the constant threat of discovery and deportation and the virtual assurance of exploitation. And you do this because you hope to improve the lot of yourself and your family.

It rather seems as if being trash involves taking a hard road and is deserving of admiration rather than condemnation.


If we just opened our borders and let illegals with a wage difference of like 800% lower start running rampant in this country, then the economy of the USA would be no better than the foreign shitholes that these people came from. Right. I see. Have you done much travelling? Or do just have poor skills of perception?


The reason this country is good is because we DON'T open our borders.The reason your country was at one time great, economically, scientifically and morally, can be found in these words:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Shame on you.

If all of your janitors, babysitters, and farm workers are white, then you don't live in an area that is overrun by illegal aliens. Employers don't want to hire citizens to do these jobs because then they have to pay them minimum wage and give them benefits like heath care or disability. Jobs like those go straight to illegal immigrants, I know because I was in the same looking for the same type of work and they beat me out everytime. Was it frustrating and unfair, yes it certainly was, but to say there is no demand is just ignorant. If people actually followed the law and never hired illegal people, there wouldn't be a large influx of illegal immigrants over here. They come for better work opportunities, if there weren't any jobs to be had then I'm sure they would rather have a job to support their families back home, than to be here all alone and homeless with no income whatsoever. The illegal people get deported and the company hires new illegal people to replace them. This is a two way street, if Americans hate having illegal immigrants in the country so much then they need to stop hiring them and boycott all of the places that do. Personally I think the immigrants who fall into this particular category should be given temporary citizenship after they turn 18 and they have so many years to complete all of the paperwork and test required to become an actual citizen or they have that many years to arrange something else if they don't want to stay or don't want to be citizens. Point is government knows who they are so they can't hide for long once their time is up.

You aren't making any sense, cutsie.

The DREAM act isn't going to help free up jobs for legal citizens -- at all. They will still be here in droves, taking our jobs. But if the DREAM act were passed, a small percentage of them will be taking our white collar jobs instead of our blue collar ones, and we'd call them "conditional legal" instead of illegal from that point on. Some solution. That is like saying that if we just legalized all the illlegal aliens in the USA at once, then we wouldn't have an illegal alien problem anymore -- because they would be legal. Oh wait... that's retarded.

Don't be dumb by quoting me as saying that there is no demand for illegal work. I said there isn't a *high* demand for illegal work -- which is true. Most companies except the low-down ones that pay under the table won't hire illegal immigrants, or else they will be fined. Illegal immigrants are a liability, not an asset. Illegal immigrants do not find easy work here in the USA cutsie. Most of them get by on temporary odd jobs and lawnmowing. They struggled to find gainful employment in their old country and they struggle to find it here as well. And now that more and more companies are using e-verify (look it up), it is becoming harder than ever before to work here illegally -- and thank God!

In the meantime, why don't you explain exactly why you feel that these illegals deserve to be put ahead of legal applicants in the line for green card? After all, that is what the DREAM act does. It also crowds up our already overburdened state colleges with non-taxpaying leeches. Those are issues you clearly don't want to touch... because you seem more concerned with the benefits this will give to illegal aliens, than the damage it would to actual Americans in the long run. And how do you propose that such an act would do ANYTHING to help stop illegal immigration, when the next generation of kids who come here after the DREAM act passes will be stuck in the same place, the same situation, as the current beneficiaries of the act. Should they just keep being legalized forever? If anything that will just attract even more.

The USA can't house the minority trash of the whole world, pjdude.Take your racism and shove it. they aren't trash they're human beings.
here isn't enough for room for anyone who wants to come here, to come here. Well not with people trying to destroy our econmy.
If we just opened our borders and let illegals with a wage difference of like 800% lower start running rampant in this country, 800% really can you say full of shit.
then the economy of the USA would be no better than the foreign shitholes that these people came from. Um no not really. the reason they woirk the dirt jobs is because people like you don't believe they should have access to good jobs.
The reason this country is good is because we DON'T open our borders. I suppose we(the us) would have been better off if all those inventions that immigrants gave us were developed elsewhere. you know like the modern electrical system(Based on AC)

I hadn't noticed you before Saven, so my response has been somewhat delayed while I cleaned up the vomit.

Get well, soon.



You are making an unwarranted and certainly unsubstantiated judgement that these individuals are trash.

Let's see what it entails to qualify as trash. You have to leave your home, your family, your friends and your familiar environment. You travel thousands of miles, often at great physical peril. You then work long hours, perhaps in dangerous conditions for a pittance of a wage, with the constant threat of discovery and deportation and the virtual assurance of exploitation. And you do this because you hope to improve the lot of yourself and your family.

It rather seems as if being trash involves taking a hard road and is deserving of admiration rather than condemnation.

Were your parents illegal? Thieves often have to work in dangerous conditions at physical great peril too. We don't admire thieves though; we punish them for breaking the law and potentially hurting other people for their own greed. Well, I see no reason for illegal aliens to be an exception to that. They are a burden on the American people, they broke the law by coming here, and they knew full well that what they were doing was wrong. There's nothing honorable about greed, ophiolite.



The reason your country was at one time great, economically, scientifically and morally, can be found in these words:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Shame on you.

That applies to legal immigrants.

Illegal aliens didn't make this country great, you nutcase. Legal immigrants did. Do get with the program.

Take your racism and shove it. they aren't trash they human beings. Well not with people trying to destroy our econmy. 800% really can you say full of shit. Um no not really. the reason they woirk the dirt jobs is because people like you don't believe they should have access to good jobs. I suppose we(the us) would have been better off if all those inventions that immigrants gave us were developed elsewhere. you know like the modern electrical system(Based on AC)

Where is the racism here? Illegal aliens don't just come from Mexico, you unbelievable twit. And yes, the average wage in Mexico is something like two dollars an hour. Here it is like seventeen dollars. So the wage difference is actually a little more than 800%. Obviously just opening our borders to a whole bunch of unbelievably poor people would turn our lower states into living hellholes, just like good old mother Mexico.

Illegal aliens don't invent things in the USA pjdude. They just steal them. Dont' confuse them with legal immigrants, please. It's insulting to every legal applicant who applies from outside the USA like they are supposed to do.

Well, I see no reason for illegal aliens to be an exception to that. They are a burden on the American people, Not everyone agrees. And those who disagree are not all bleeding heart liberals. (You do know who Alan Greenspan is, don't you?)
Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said that illegal immigration makes a “significant” contribution to U.S. economic growth by providing a flexible workforce.

Greenspan, appearing before a Senate subcommittee today, said illegal immigrants provide a “safety valve” as demand for workers rises and falls.

“There is little doubt that unauthorized, that is, illegal, immigration has made a significant contribution to the growth of our economy,” Greenspan said. An overhaul of U.S. immigration laws is “badly needed” to create legal avenues for skilled and unskilled workers to enter the country legally, he said.

I can find plenty more like that one (http://immigrantsinusa.blogspot.com/2009/05/greenspan-says-illegal-immigration-aids.html).


Were your parents illegal?What if they were? My arguments are not based on their status, though they are based to a degree on their values of inclusion and fairness.


There's nothing honorable about greed, ophiolite.There is honour in trying to survive and prosper.

You made his categorical statement "The reason this country is good is because we DON'T open our borders."

You are now furiously backpedalling to say you meant we don't open our borders to illegal aliens. Well, duh! That's kind of how we define an illegal alien - someone who we have closed the door on (though not very successfully).


Illegal aliens didn't make this country great, you nutcase. Legal immigrants did.Back in a time when the doors were pretty well open in contrast with today when they are comparatively closed. Whether you like it or not it was an open door policy that contributed to the rise of America. Full stop. Period.

Where is the racism here? Illegal aliens don't just come from Mexico, you unbelievable twit.and i'm not going to repond to this because quite frankly there is no way I can without insulting your intelligence.
And yes, the average wage in Mexico is something like two dollars an hour. Here it is like seventeen dollars. So the wage difference is actually a little more than 800%. and it has an inherent fallacy of they can get any job an the Us they get paid less than minimum wage so its really at best around 300% and that is pushing it.
Obviously just opening our borders to a whole bunch of unbelievably poor people would turn our lower states into living hellholes, just like good old mother Mexico. not really if we did something that based on your attitude you steadfastly oppose allow them to legally enter, help them, and quit being a racist.


Illegal aliens don't invent things in the USA pjdude. So just because some one's an Illegal means they can't be creative. They just steal them.
Dont' confuse them with legal immigrants, please. i'm not but I guess the only reason your not shitting on them is because than you can't pretend your not a racist.
It's insulting to every legal applicant who applies from outside the USA like they are supposed to do.
No it isn't because they just like anyone else can invent things pretending they don't is an insult to every decent human being.

Not everyone agrees.

Most do. In what way could illegals possibly help to build our economy? By drug trafficking? Identity theft? Welfare fraud? Tax evasion? Criminal activities without consequences? Free ER visits? Free education? Do tell.



What if they were? My arguments are not based on their status, though they are based to a degree on their values of inclusion and fairness.

So are you the child of illegals or what? It's a straight question; why can't you give a straight answer?




There is honour in trying to survive and prosper.


There is honor in trying to survive without hurting other people. Illegals don't do that. Thieves and murderers try to survive too. Greed and theft are not noble concepts, however.


You made his categorical statement "The reason this country is good is because we DON'T open our borders."

You are now furiously backpedalling to say you meant we don't open our borders to illegal aliens. Well, duh! That's kind of how we define an illegal alien - someone who we have closed the door on (though not very successfully).

Backpedalling? Methinks you need to relearn what an "open borders" policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_borders)is, stupid. It means "unrestricted entry and exit." I know, it's hard.



Back in a time when the doors were pretty well open in contrast with today when they are comparatively closed. Whether you like it or not it was an open door policy that contributed to the rise of America. Full stop. Period.

We never had an open door policy. We did have looser restrictions, but it was never open borders or open door or whatever you want to call it. The difference was that back then our population was low, the West Coast was sparsely populated, and we needed laborers. That is no longer the case. We don't need blue collar laborers anymore, which is what most people who immigrate here illegally are. We need skilled workers; that is why we have tight restrictions. Obtaining a green card is a privilege we give to immigrants, not a right that they are inherently owed.

FACT: in Mexico the punishment for illegally immigrating to the country is far worse than what we have here. The little slimes over there will throw you in jail for years for doing it. So much for US being the racists, lol!

I dont see the problem with this at all.

There's nothing honorable about greed, ophiolite. So wanting a half way decent life for you and your family is greedy?

I dont see the problem with this at all.

Because you aren't thinking about the people it hurts: like legal immigrants.

So wanting a half way decent life for you and your family is greedy?

You can have a half-way decent life in Mexico. Most people are not starving in Mexico. They have clothes and an education system. They may not be as good as ours, but they are not living in straw houses and running around nude with nothing to eat. So yes, they come here out of greed.

And not only do they disregard our sovreign right to keep who we want out of own country, but they burden everyone inside of it and crowd it up for people who want to come here legally. Don't the dreams of the legal immigrants count too? They should count MORE.

Because you aren't thinking about the people it hurts: like legal immigrants.

No, because I find the idea helps eliminate cultural and political barriers that seperate us as a global society. At least its a start.

You can have a half-way decent life in Mexico. Most people are not starving in Mexico. They have clothes and an education system. They may not be as good as ours, but they are not living in straw houses and running around nude with nothing to eat. So yes, they come here out of greed.No they don't and the people coming here are the people that can't get a chance in mexico. So rather than spew your hate think and try being human. They come here for a better life and here you are being all high and mighty saying they should live in squalor.


And not only do they disregard our sovreign right to keep who we want out of own country, but they burden everyone inside of it and crowd it up for people who want to come here legally. Well i'd gladly exchange you for any of them.
Don't the dreams of the legal immigrants count too? They should count MORE. Illegal immigrants don't effect legal immigration that much. I'd explain why but quite franly i doubt you'd listen for thine hatred is blind and unyielding.

We would essentially be putting lawbreakers at the head of the line for green cards, before legal applicants. That doesn't seem ridiculous or unfair to you?

No, because these would be people who have proven that they are capable of becoming an asset to the country and they would be partly or wholly assimilated anyway. These are the people who we know add more than they take from the system, so deportation is just our way of sending productive human capital—capital built up in our school systems using funds we provided—away to foreign countries. That capital perhaps to be lost since these kids will mostly need to switch into "survival mode" when transplanted into what to them are largely foreign culture, foreclosing in many cases the possibility of college.

No, because I find the idea helps eliminate cultural and political barriers that seperate us as a global society. At least its a start.

Globalism blows. It destroys cultures, not protect them.

No, because these would be people who have proven that they are capable of becoming an asset to the country and they would be partly or wholly assimilated anyway. These are the people who we know add more than they take from the system, so deportation is just our way of sending productive human capital—capital built up in our school systems using funds we provided—away to foreign countries. That capital perhaps to be lost since these kids will mostly need to switch into "survival mode" when transplanted into what to them are largely foreign culture, foreclosing in many cases the possibility of college.

Sucks for them. But they chose to overstay at 18, pandaemoni. As a kid they didn't have a choice. As an adult, however, they DID.

And there are plenty of qualified, skilled, and college educated legal immigrants who want to come here. They are the ones who deserve priority. After all, they're the ones following the law and so they deserve first dibs on the path to green cards. I can't imagine anyone arguing against that.

Sucks for them. But they chose to overstay at 18, pandaemoni. As a kid they didn't have a choice. As an adult, however, they DID.

And there are plenty of qualified, skilled, and college educated legal immigrants who want to come here. They are the ones who deserve priority. After all, they're the ones following the law and so they deserve first dibs on the path to green cards. I can't imagine anyone arguing against that.

yeah fuck it you in no way or shape or form are benefiting from the crime in a way that takes from other but fuck it on the streets of the slums of latin america you go

AMERICA FUCK YEAH

That applies to legal immigrants.

Illegal aliens didn't make this country great, you nutcase. Legal immigrants did. Do get with the program.

Now you are just being controversial for the heck of it. The New Colossus in no way suggests any limitation based on immigration status. In fact, it speaks of a "world-wide welcome" from the "Mother of Exiles." Neither even hinting that this means "of the non-trash sort." It says the trash is precisely who we want.

I do agree that by and large legal immigrants have had a greater impact on the country than illegals, because there have been so many more of them. I am unaware of any study that suggests that illegals and their children (who are the ones at issue here) would be significantly less likely to add value to the country if we lifted the prohibitions on their being here.

If you believe in free markets then the free flow of labor is just as much a good thing as the free flow of capital. Legal or illegal, it should be market processes that draw people here and closed borders are just the same as a trade restriction on imports (of foreign labor, rather than foreign goods).

The free flow of labor is undesirable in this case. That barrier to "human capital" is there for a reason. Limitations exist to protect our healthcare and education systems, and our wage structure. This is a case where the barrier is a GOOD thing.

There are problems besides the economic ones. It's cultural, and political, and ideological. Americans shouldn't have to be swamped by a foreign culture if they don't want to be.

The free flow of labor is undesirable in this case. That barrier to "human capital" is there for a reason. Limitations exist to protect our healthcare and education systems, and our wage structure. This is a case where the barrier is a GOOD thing.

There are problems besides the economic ones. It's cultural, and political, and ideological. Americans shouldn't have to be swamped by a foreign culture if they don't want to be.

You know every isolationist culture fail miserably right? Or do you want america to stagnate and rot?

You know every isolationist culture fail miserably right? Or do you want america to stagnate and rot?

Lol. Restricting immigration is hardly "isolationist." Have you tried immigrating to the UK, or any other EU nation? It's harder than immigrating to the USA -- which is already very difficult. Funny how these isolationist restrictive immigration type countries (USA, UK, Germany) are also the worlds' most successful, eh? You can't even be a citizen in Germany if you are not German by blood. Part of their goal to preserve "ethnic homogeneity."

I guess trying to maintain your own culture is racist in your eyes? Instead we should all have to hear Mexican circus music when we leave our houses, eh?

In what way could illegals possibly help to build our economy? Excuse me if I place more confidence in the views of Alan Greenspan and the like than I do in your racist/elitist self delusions.


There is honor in trying to survive without hurting other people. Illegals don't do that. So the guys picking apples in California and driving cabs in Houston are hurting people in what way exactly?


We never had an open door policy. We did have looser restrictions, but it was never open borders or open door or whatever you want to call it. Yes, I wish to call the policies in force during the periods of major immigration 'open door', largely because it is my recollection that that is how historians and sociologists referred to them. If they used a different term, or you prefer a different term, that's fine, but trying to erect a strawman to distract us from your weak argument will not work.


We don't need blue collar laborers anymore, which is what most people who immigrate here illegally are. Really. Then why are all those US employers employing so many of these unwanted blue collar labourers? I mean if there is no work for them, how come so many of them are working? That's mighty peculiar!


FACT: in Mexico the punishment for illegally immigrating to the country is far worse than what we have here. The little slimes over there will throw you in jail for years for doing it. So much for US being the racists, lol!Right. A lot of us are nodding our heads here at that highly diagnostic paragraph.


So are you the child of illegals or what? It's a straight question; why can't you give a straight answer?
The question is wholly irrelevant to the discussion. I am arguing from logic and facts, from the twin perspectives of compassionate humanity and enlightened self interest, and from the sound benefits that accrue to a properly managed, more versatile immigration policy.

For some reason the question seems important to you. I will say this. My father worked hard throughout his life. At times he was earning less than he could have received by not working while taking benefits (or governnment hand-outs as your sort likes to call them).
My mother worked as a domestic servant in her teens and early twenties until she married my father. Through their efforts they were able to purchase a home and I became the first family member amongst all the preceding generations and a couple of dozen cousins of my own generation to graduate from university.

Now in what possible way can that history be relevant to your argument? Especially since my father never once set foot in the US, or in Mexico, or indeed in any foreign country apart from a day trip to France. And my mother only entered the US briefly (and completely legally) to be on hand when my daughter - an American citizen - was born.

(Thanks to pjdude, pandaemoni and shichimenshyo for highlighting the divisive nonsense in Saven's posts.)

You can't even be a citizen in Germany if you are not German by blood. This is completely incorrect. Either you are ignorant, or you are lying. Which is it?

For the innocent bystanders Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law)has a reasonable review of the topic, where you will find that permanent residents of foreign extraction can be naturalised after eight years.

The reason your country was at one time great, economically, scientifically and morally, can be found in these words:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Shame on you.That was before the welfare state, when everyone had to stand on their own two feet. Under those circumstances, more people was a good thing. But one of the inherent evils of the left is that it turns people into a liability rather than a benefit. Repeal all welfare laws, stop national healthcare, or at least do so for immigrants; and I say fine; let them in. But if we're going to immediately extend a myriad of welfare and healthcare benefits to anyone who slips over the border; we can't afford to take everyone that wants to come in.

To be truly free, you have to stand on your own two feet. Each additional government benefit ties us down that much more. Limits our freedom, and limits how many people we can extend the blessings of liberty to.

how can you stop national healthcare.

it doesn't exist in the USA.

Lol. Restricting immigration is hardly "isolationist." Have you tried immigrating to the UK, or any other EU nation? It's harder than immigrating to the USA -- which is already very difficult. Funny how these isolationist restrictive immigration type countries (USA, UK, Germany) are also the worlds' most successful, eh? no but restricting immigration because you don't like the people like you want to is.
You can't even be a citizen in Germany if you are not German by blood. Part of their goal to preserve "ethnic homogeneity." untrue. I have seen the list of things needed to become a german citizen and being of the german ethnicity isn't one of them.


I guess trying to maintain your own culture is racist in your eyes? Instead we should all have to hear Mexican circus music when we leave our houses, eh?

nice turn around to bad no one is dumb enough to buy it.

how can you stop national healthcare.

it doesn't exist in the USA.

its fearmongering

That was before the welfare state, when everyone had to stand on their own two feet. Under those circumstances, more people was a good thing. But one of the inherent evils of the left is that it turns people into a liability rather than a benefit. Repeal all welfare laws, stop national healthcare, or at least do so for immigrants; and I say fine; let them in. But if we're going to immediately extend a myriad of welfare and healthcare benefits to anyone who slips over the border; we can't afford to take everyone that wants to come in.

To be truly free, you have to stand on your own two feet. Each additional government benefit ties us down that much more. Limits our freedom, and limits how many people we can extend the blessings of liberty to.

Yeah You want everyone to stand on their own to feet just like you have yet you probably ignore all the things the public did to allow you. The whole stand on your own 2 feet argument is bullshit because its never been true. And mad we could afford to if people like you didn't have a pathological irrational hatred for taxes.

Excuse me if I place more confidence in the views of Alan Greenspan and the like than I do in your racist/elitist self delusions.

And none of the issues are addressed. If your argument had any merit you wouldn't need to pay it forward to Greenspan. Tons disagree with him. In fact, the MAJORITY of Americans disagree with him -- which is why this amnesty bill continues to fail and fail and fail. :cool:





Really. Then why are all those US employers employing so many of these unwanted blue collar labourers? I mean if there is no work for them, how come so many of them are working? That's mighty peculiar!


They aren't. Like I said before, there are almost no illegal aliens in the state that I live in now. Our economy is one of the best in the whole country. We've had the highest per capita personal income for years, and it's thanks to having NO illegal immigrants working for pennies on the dollar and injuring naturalborn American citizens.

Illegals are hired in places where they are paid in cash or where companies don't use e-verify (look it up). It isn't "illegal labor" that is in demand. It's low wage labor, which illegals happen to supply. That's a crucial distinction you need to make. If these illegals were gone, those jobs would fill up with American workers again -- just like they did 50 years ago, when we had very few illegals in the country.



The question is wholly irrelevant to the discussion. I am arguing from logic and facts, from the twin perspectives of compassionate humanity and enlightened self interest, and from the sound benefits that accrue to a properly managed, more versatile immigration policy.


And still the answer doesn't come. Why am I not surprised? It's not irrelevant at all. It would explain exactly why you are taken with a pro illegal immigration stance.

This is completely incorrect. Either you are ignorant, or you are lying. Which is it?

For the innocent bystanders Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law)has a reasonable review of the topic, where you will find that permanent residents of foreign extraction can be naturalised after eight years.

You need to reread the article. If you are born to parents of German descent, you are a citizen -- even if you are born outside of Germany.

But for anyone else, it requires that your *parent* be living in Germany for 8 years AND live there legally. The parents do NOT become citizens when the child does. Their laws are WAY stricter than ours. No anchor babies in Germany to keep the illegal parents around -- which is what I am assuming you are, in the USA?

Yeah, they wouldn't let you in. :cool:

If you are born to parents of German descent, you are a citizen -- even if you are born outside of Germany.

You need to reread the article. It requires that your *parent* be living in Germany for 8 years AND live there legally.

QUOTE: "In general, birth in Germany does not confer German citizenship if neither parent is German." In other words, being merely born in Germany is not a guarantee of citizenship. Moving to Germany and living there for 8 years will most definitely not make you a citizen. That applies to children born in Germany -- only. Their laws are WAY stricter than ours. No anchor babies in Germany -- which is what I am assuming you are, in the USA?


German citizenship may be acquired by naturalisation by those with permanent residence who have lived in Germany for 8 years. Additional requirements include an adequate command of the German language and an ability to be self-supporting without recourse to welfare.
read the whole thing

Yeah You want everyone to stand on their own to feet just like you have yet you probably ignore all the things the public did to allow you. The whole stand on your own 2 feet argument is bullshit because its never been true. And mad we could afford to if people like you didn't have a pathological irrational hatred for taxes.

You aren't making any sense here pjdude. Americans are the ones who pay all those taxes. We don't owe healthcare and education to people decided to break our laws and disrespect our sovereign right as a nation to force legal immigration only. We provide a K-12 education, free ER visits, and calls to the police and fire department and all our other public works to these illegals. We do that to appeal to our common humanity -- but most of them don't pay a DIME in return, with the exception of the few who obtain an ITIN. These greedy slimeballs who crawl over the border in droves just want to take and take and take. They don't respect our ideals, they are completely ignorant of our history and they know next to nothing about the great figures of our revolution. Basically, they're just a bunch of ignorant human garbage, and we have no responsiblity to help them pursue their greedy dreams. Sorry. :cool:

For those entering the thread at this point here is some catch-up. Saven asked me if my parents were illegal aliens. I argued that that was irrelevant to the discussion, since my arguments were based upon facts, not upon any emotional bias related to my family history.
He insisted he wanted to know if I was 'the child of illegals, or what?'

I gave him the answer, but he responded with this.

And still the answer doesn't come. Why am I not surprised? It's not irrelevant at all. It would explain exactly why you are taken with a pro illegal immigration stance.
1. I have not 'taken with' (sic) a pro illegal immigration stance at all. (Don't be any sillier than you have to be.) I am arguing that illegal aliens have made a significant contribution to the US economy. I am further arguing that this contribution and their status needs to be dealt with in an imaginative and productive manner, to enhance that contribution.

2. Excuse me. Are you unable to read. Refer to my last but one post. After explaining why your question was irrelevant I gave a brief history of my parents then explained that "......my father never once set foot in the US, or in Mexico, or indeed in any foreign country apart from a day trip to France. And my mother only entered the US briefly (and completely legally) to be on hand when my daughter - an American citizen - was born."

Which portion of my comprehensive explanation were you having difficulty understanding? Do you believe that your comprehension difficulties are related to funds being diverted from education in your school district, when you were young, to provide support for the children of illegal aliens?

Do you really need a translation of that? OK. My parents were not illegal aliens. I am not an illegal alien. None of my family are illegal aliens. During the period in which I lived and worked in the US I did so in a fully legal manner, entering the country on an L1 visa. I currently hold a B1/B2 visa valid for life, but choose to enter the US, on a regular basis, under the visa waiver program.

Do you now require to know what colour underwear I have on when passing through immigration? Can you at least try reading my responses next time and ask for help when you need it.

And still the answer doesn't come.:shrug::rolleyes:

EDIT: You yourself are a visitor to the USA then? Not even a permanent resident?

You need to reread the article. .No, you need to read and to understand the article. Even if it had the restricted meaning you are trying to place on it, that would still show your original statement to be wholly wrong. However, your interpretation is equally flawed. After eight years anyone with a permament residence can apply for naturalisation.

Of course this does not apply to me. I can go over to Germany tomorrow and start working, since I am citizen of the EU. I presume if I wished to swap my current citizenship for German I would have to meet the residency requirements and certainly improve my language, but all of this is incidental to the point that you have clearly demonstrated a) you don't know what you are talking about b) when you are presented with facts you can't even understand them.

EDIT: You yourself are a visitor to the USA then? Not even a permanent resident?
I do not live in the US at present. At no time in this discussion have I explicitly or implicitly stated I lived in the US at present. You have assumed this from the outset. Assumption seems to be something you are skilled at.

(And let me note that I make one hell of a larger contribution to the US economy than the majority of US citizens, for which certain of your fellow citizens very kindly reward me with large sums of money. Apart from that, the shares I hold in US companies mean I have a very strong personal interest in a strong, bouyant US economy and I don't take kindly to idiots like you trying to fuck it up because you lack the education or intellect to appreciate what you are doing.)

Argue away. You are a turkey and there is nothing to be gained in talking to you further. You are on Ignore.

You aren't making any sense here pjdude. Americans are the ones who pay all those taxes. We don't owe healthcare and education to people decided to break our laws and disrespect our sovereign right as a nation to force legal immigration only. We provide a K-12 education, free ER visits, and calls to the police and fire department and all our other public works to these illegals. We do that to appeal to our common humanity -- but most of them don't pay a DIME in return, with the exception of the few who obtain an ITIN. These greedy slimeballs who crawl over the border in droves just want to take and take and take. They don't respect our ideals, they are completely ignorant of our history and they know next to nothing about the great figures of our revolution. Basically, they're just a bunch of ignorant human garbage, and we have no responsiblity to help them pursue their greedy dreams. Sorry. :cool:
For fucks sake please at least fucking read all the posts in the thread. Once again you put your mind to the task and have yet to manage to actually respond in an intelligent manner with out sounding racist.

I do not live in the US at present. At no time in this discussion have I explicitly or implicitly stated I lived in the US at present. You have assumed this from the outset. Assumption seems to be something you are skilled at.

Nay, but it explains why you are pro illegal immigration. And because you are not even a legally permanent resident of the USA, we can just toss your opinion on the DREAM act out the window. It means nothing to you, and you have no actual stake in the matter.

NEW PATHWAY OF THE THREAD: this discussion is designed for Americans, who have the experience and knowledge of illegal immigrants and their effects on our cities to adequately converse about the topic at hand. For the rest of you: this is not your country. You are free to comment on things, but your opinion shall be subsumed when I conclude the thread and make a decision either way on which side succeeds in the discussion. Henceforth this shall be Saven's Law.

Nay, but it explains why you are pro illegal immigration. And because you are not even a legally permanent resident of the USA, we can just toss your opinion on the DREAM act out the window. It means nothing to you, and you have no actual stake in the matter.

NEW PATHWAY OF THE THREAD: this discussion is designed for Americans, who have the experience and knowledge of illegal immigrants and their effects on our cities to adequately converse about the topic at hand. For the rest of you: this is not your country. You are free to comment on things, but your opinion shall be subsumed when I conclude the thread and make a decision either way on how which side. Henceforth this shall be Saven's Law.

So in other words under Saven's law we can just ignore your opinion? I'm say that because I believe you meant
Americans, who have the experience and knowledge of illegal immigrants and their effects on our cities to adequately converse about the topic at hand. to be Americans who have the experience and knowledge of illegal immigrants and their effects on our cities to adequately converse about the topic at hand. yes i know there isn't much difference punctuation matters.

we can just toss your opinion on the DREAM act out the window. It means nothing to you, and you have no actual stake in the matter. .And let me note that I make one hell of a larger contribution to the US economy than the majority of US citizens, for which certain of your fellow citizens very kindly reward me with large sums of money. Apart from that, the shares I hold in US companies mean I have a very strong personal interest in a strong, bouyant US economy.

Your consistency in being unable to read is remarkable.

Now where the hell did that Ignore button go?

And let me note that I make one hell of a larger contribution to the US economy than the majority of US citizens, for which certain of your fellow citizens very kindly reward me with large sums of money. Apart from that, the shares I hold in US companies mean I have a very strong personal interest in a strong, bouyant US economy.

Your consistency in being unable to read is remarkable.

Now where the hell did that Ignore button go?

Thanks for stopping by. Get some help, soon.

I think that if they are going to have a law like this then it should be done in tandem with the those who have been here legally, meaning that they should get a temporary residency and wait behind those who were here legally as permanent residents waiting for citizenship, it would take a long time but that doesn't matter. The problem with this law is that it encourages illegal immigration. Anyone who has citizenship rights will be able to apply for their families to be citizens as this is the law so basically not only would those students become residents and citizens but so would the rest of their family members. To offer it so readily is like saying if you come with your children and educate them here long enough then you will not be denied eventually. What they have to decide is whether they are serious about setting deterrents on illegal immigration or not, if not then fine but why should those temporary or in line applicants who have been legally working to achieve their goals be set aside for others who have come in through the back door so to speak?

I hadn't noticed you before Saven, so my response has been somewhat delayed while I cleaned up the vomit. You are making an unwarranted and certainly unsubstantiated judgement that these individuals are trash.

Let's see what it entails to qualify as trash. You have to leave your home, your family, your friends and your familiar environment. You travel thousands of miles, often at great physical peril. You then work long hours, perhaps in dangerous conditions for a pittance of a wage, with the constant threat of discovery and deportation and the virtual assurance of exploitation. And you do this because you hope to improve the lot of yourself and your family.

It rather seems as if being trash involves taking a hard road and is deserving of admiration rather than condemnation.

Right. I see. Have you done much travelling? Or do just have poor skills of perception?

The reason your country was at one time great, economically, scientifically and morally, can be found in these words:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Shame on you.


The words that stand on the Statue of Liberty is there precisely to greet the new immigrants who the U.S were willing to take. It's not a romantic nostalgic open invitation. Perhaps if you were not so emotional you would have read Saven's posts and see that he is making some interesting points, that being in regard to legal applicants who have been working hard to become citizens, the majority who happen to be minorities.

The words that stand on the Statue of Liberty is there precisely to greet the new immigrants who the U.S were willing to take. It's not a romantic nostalgic open invitation. Perhaps if you were not so emotional you would have read Saven's posts and see that he is making some interesting points, that being in regard to legal applicants who have been working hard to become citizens, the majority who happen to be minorities.

He's just a racist try to cover his ass with a thin veil pay attention to his posts and you can see it.

Do you mean 'I can see it' or 'I can't see it'?

Anyway there is a tendency here on the forums for people to become emotional and have a knee-jerk reaction to any topic of this nature and immediately assume someone is a racist or anti-semite, fascist or nazi sympathizer and god only knows what. I think it serves our discussions for us to really take a look at what is being said on an issue. If we are too belligerent towards a poster we fail to hear any reason in what they are saying and they in turn get their back up and react simply to the attack. Certainly it must be possible to discuss these issues without branding someone just for holding an opinion.

Do you mean 'I can see it' or 'I can't see it'?

Anyway there is a tendency here on the forums for people to become emotional and have a knee-jerk reaction to any topic of this nature and immediately assume someone is a racist or anti-semite, fascist or nazi sympathizer and god only knows what. I think it serves our discussions for us to really take a look at what is being said on an issue. If we are too belligerent towards a poster we fail to hear any reason in what they are saying and they in turn get their back up and react simply to the attack. Certainly it must be possible to discuss these issues without branding someone just for holding an opinion.

Look in between the lines. look for whats implied and not implied. or not. because calling a group you don't like trash is so not bigoted at all.

But we only unveil matters of intention and motive by methodically going through the process of question and clarification not by jumping the gun and accusing someone of WHAT WE THINK WE ARE HEARING which happens a lot, then interestingly enough you never truly discern what the person is saying and its the end of communication. Its like when you have built an aura around someone and then never really see what's behind it. If he's a racist then he wouldn't be for any immigration including the applicants who are waiting in line who are surely mostly minority. Why call him racist? He could simply be conservative.

But we only unveil matters of intention and motive by methodically going through the process of question and clarification not by jumping the gun and accusing someone of WHAT WE THINK WE ARE HEARING which happens a lot, then interestingly enough you never truly discern what the person is saying and its the end of communication. Its like when you have built an aura around someone and then never really see what's behind it. If he's a racist then he wouldn't be for any immigration including the applicants who are waiting in line who are surely mostly minority. Why call him racist? He could simply be conservative.

What's hilarious about this big palava is that I'm a far left liberal. I think gay marriage should be legalized everywhere and I'm rabidly anti-corporate. :cool:

It is my liberal soul that forces me to support American workers, not a bunch of illegal aliens who got sick of their scratbag neighborhoods back home and decided to bring their kids. Those parents knew that they were ruining their kids' lives when they brought them here illegally. It is their fault, not the USA's.

And calling me a racist for not being pro illegal immigration is wildly retarded on pjboy's part. I am completely FOR legal immigration. My own father, his brother, his sister, and their parents were all born in Germany and flew over here legally and built a home in Anaheim, California. Things were nice back then. There were almost no illegal aliens during that time, and Anaheim was a small town and a nice place to live. There were practically zero Mexicans there.

Today the place is over half Mexican, and it hurts me every time I fly from the East Coast to visit everyone again. The town is trashed, its identity is lost forever, and Spanish is spoken on every street corner. The place is swamped, all for these people who were "only seeking a better life." Yeah, a better life -- at the expense of OUR way of life. The problems with so many cultures entering the USA today, is they bring their culture, language, traditions, and religion, with them. They set up shop just like back home, and if their traditions and culture conflict with our own legal system, then they believe it is our legal system that must defer to their traditions. It has nothing to do with race.

Their loyalties for the old country don't evaporate as they once did, instead they support their old country more than ours. People used to blend.....now they want to remain separate and shove their cultures and beliefs down our throats. If we wanted to live in other cultures, well, we'd go there. We shouldn't have to be foreigners in our own land and we damn well don't have to like it. Nor do we have to accomodate the scum who want us to like it.

To the person who cited the statue of liberty statement: There's a part of me that thinks it was BETTER when people came here out of desperation and never wanted to look back to their old country. Now it seems it's more of a pit stop to take what they want and have no real desire to be here.

Still support the illegals, guys? Yeah, just wait until your car is wrecked or someone you know is killed by an unlicensed illegal alien driver with no liability insurance, no address, and who, by law, shouldn't be here in the first place.

The problems with so many cultures entering the USA today, is they bring their culture, language, traditions, and religion, with them. They set up shop just like back home, and if their traditions and culture conflict with our own legal system, then they believe it is our legal system that must defer to their traditions. It has nothing to do with race. .

Well this is a problem of integration more than immigration as some immigrants really don't intend to 'blend in'. My best friend recently told me about this episode:

"Earlier in the year Salam kindergarten went on an outing to the zoo. At the end of the trip they received Santa hats as a gift. When the parents saw their children coming back with the Santa hats on their heads, there was a commotion. The parents, who are among the most religious Muslims in Denmark, saw it as a Christian religious symbol being forced on their kids. Some of the parents demonstratively threw it into the trash, while others cut it up before doing the same.

Salam was created as a Muslim women's center to help immigrant women. Salam kindergarten has in the past ten years developed into a purely Muslim kindergarten with a long waiting list. Religious Muslims from all over Copenhagen sign up their children to the kindergarten.


Together they started preparing new regulations and a new operating agreement with the municipality. They wanted to protect Salam's values. The two danish teachers wanted everything to be clear, so they could say that children in a Danish kindergarten are allowed to draw and sing, and that koran lessons belong at home. Koran lessons had been given at Salam for a few years.

With these regulations in hand the kindergarten could ask parents to leave if they were not interested in following them. But the municipality had difficulty in finding legal support for such rules. It wasn't possible to write in the rules that children should learn about Danish Christmas, for example, but rather that they should learn about Danish culture.

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/06/copenhagen-hizb-ut-tahrir-kindergarten.html

You can read the whole article its a long drawn out hubbub.

Anyway its really off topic.

I just think there is this atmosphere hypersensitivity and disparage and smear anyone who approaches subjects that are not considered politically correct. Its really unhealthy on a site like this and unproductive since we live in a world of clash whether it be religious or ethnic or cultural and we have to learn how to listen to people who do not share our understanding of things. How can we approach these discussions in our society if we cannot do so on this site? I mean to simply shove the other in the corner to distance ourselves does not lead to anything but more disharmony.

But we only unveil matters of intention and motive by methodically going through the process of question and clarification not by jumping the gun and accusing someone of WHAT WE THINK WE ARE HEARING which happens a lot, then interestingly enough you never truly discern what the person is saying and its the end of communication. Its like when you have built an aura around someone and then never really see what's behind it. If he's a racist then he wouldn't be for any immigration including the applicants who are waiting in line who are surely mostly minority. Why call him racist? He could simply be conservative.

Lucy guess what shitting on people because of who they are is in fact racist and that is exactly what he is doing. What he does say is what makes alot of what he says implied as racist. Tell me if some called you and your entire ethnic group and socioeconomic class trash simply because they came here illegally(probably because the cost of waiting would be too much) you think that person was racist with good reason they are.

What's hilarious about this big palava is that I'm a far left liberal. I think gay marriage should be legalized everywhere and I'm rabidly anti-corporate. :cool:

It is my liberal soul that forces me to support American workers, not a bunch of illegal aliens who got sick of their scratbag neighborhoods back home and decided to bring their kids. Those parents knew that they were ruining their kids' lives when they brought them here illegally. It is their fault, not the USA's.

And calling me a racist for not being pro illegal immigration is wildly retarded on pjboy's part. I am completely FOR legal immigration. My own father, his brother, his sister, and their parents were all born in Germany and flew over here legally and built a home in Anaheim, California. Things were nice back then. There were almost no illegal aliens during that time, and Anaheim was a small town and a nice place to live. There were practically zero Mexicans there.

Today the place is over half Mexican, and it hurts me every time I fly from the East Coast to visit everyone again. The town is trashed, its identity is lost forever, and Spanish is spoken on every street corner. The place is swamped, all for these people who were "only seeking a better life." Yeah, a better life -- at the expense of OUR way of life. The problems with so many cultures entering the USA today, is they bring their culture, language, traditions, and religion, with them. They set up shop just like back home, and if their traditions and culture conflict with our own legal system, then they believe it is our legal system that must defer to their traditions. It has nothing to do with race.

Their loyalties for the old country don't evaporate as they once did, instead they support their old country more than ours. People used to blend.....now they want to remain separate and shove their cultures and beliefs down our throats. If we wanted to live in other cultures, well, we'd go there. We shouldn't have to be foreigners in our own land and we damn well don't have to like it. Nor do we have to accomodate the scum who want us to like it.

To the person who cited the statue of liberty statement: There's a part of me that thinks it was BETTER when people came here out of desperation and never wanted to look back to their old country. Now it seems it's more of a pit stop to take what they want and have no real desire to be here.

Still support the illegals, guys? Yeah, just wait until your car is wrecked or someone you know is killed by an unlicensed illegal alien driver with no liability insurance, no address, and who, by law, shouldn't be here in the first place. I'm not calling you racist because your against illegal immigration I'm calling you a racist because of how you refer to them note lucy here is on the same side of you and I haven't called her a racist could it be because she isn't shitting on them?







You have been reported for altering a users name to disparage them and for general racist remarks.

Lucy guess what shitting on people because of who they are is in fact racist and that is exactly what he is doing. What he does say is what makes alot of what he says implied as racist. Tell me if some called you and your entire ethnic group and socioeconomic class trash simply because they came here illegally(probably because the cost of waiting would be too much) you think that person was racist with good reason they are.

Well then I must have missed something and need to go back and check because immigrants do not come from one ethnic group and he hasn't singled out an entire ethnic group and disparaged them. I hate to tell you this but using the term trash doesn't make one a racist. I dislike being in Korea because I think the people are rude but it doesn't make me racist, I easily and freely say 'I can't stand Koreans', won't even use their airline it might be glib and off the cuff but it still does not make me a racist as I would never under any circumstances advocate taking away their human rights or dignity.

Saven doesn't believe that illegals should be given de facto permanent resident rights under the DREAM act, he seems to think that immigrant applicants who are waiting to become citizens should get first dibs and that immigration should have set limits. There isn't anything extreme about these views, and trying to paint him as racist because he used the word trash in conjunction to illegals is as 'bad' as calling all Bush lovin conservatives a bunch of 'white-trash rednecks'. I have seen that used here on this site and no one was up in arms, its simply an opinion and to call it racist ill-legitimizes real racism which is actively destructive as one uses their power to disenfranchise another group of people, not about thoughts in ones head or words like 'trash'. Its thought policing not legitimately and intelligently dealing with the topic at hand. What you are saying is he doesn't have the right to think this way about immigration and he doesn't have the right to use that word to describe illegals but if that's the way you feel then you should say that but don't dismiss it all and say 'he's a racist' because there is nothing to identify him as a real racist save what you have in your head, anymore than him calling illegals trash actually makes them trash. Most illegals are at risk if anything else from being jailed, attacked, its not a fun thing they live in fear of getting ill and needing to go to the hospital where they may be deported, its complete insecurity, they have difficulties with everything. Its a horrible life I wouldn't wish it on anyone. The law would work if they also made it fair for the ones who were already waiting in application. They will have to do something else to address illegal immigration because this law is not going to solve the problem.

Besides the fact that trade agreements like NAFTA economically disenfranchises Mexican farmers who no longer can sell their corn etc, one way to stop brain drain and also to help bolster these neighboring economies is to have a system where you can allow someone to get an education and work for a period of time but then they must return to their country to contribute to their own society. Running away from problems in their own home country is not the answer but if they had some tools to take back with them and some money saved then maybe they could contribute more. I think this would save the U.S money in the long run and would be better for these people and their communities they have left behind.

You have been reported for altering a users name to disparage them and for general racist remarks.

Not even sure what you are talking about. Sounds like some sour grapes thing. Next.

Oh, and yep. Accusing me of engaging in racism, without any legit grounds to do so, without being able to point out any location where I actually made any racist remarks, and without a single identifiable reason except because you are of Mexican descent and feel an inherent need to defend "your people," is WAY more insulting than any rule I possibly broke in this thread.

Reported as well, lol!

You aren't making any sense, cutsie.

In the meantime, why don't you explain exactly why you feel that these illegals deserve to be put ahead of legal applicants in the line for green card? After all, that is what the DREAM act does. It also crowds up our already overburdened state colleges with non-taxpaying leeches. Those are issues you clearly don't want to touch... because you seem more concerned with the benefits this will give to illegal aliens, than the damage it would to actual Americans in the long run. And how do you propose that such an act would do ANYTHING to help stop illegal immigration, when the next generation of kids who come here after the DREAM act passes will be stuck in the same place, the same situation, as the current beneficiaries of the act. Should they just keep being legalized forever? If anything that will just attract even more.

Sorry if I confused you, I'll try again. I never said I supported this DREAM act, in fact I disagree with the method, but I think the idea itself has merit. So if I were voting on it, I'd vote it down. These individuals are for lack of a birth certificate saying so, are Americans. A kid who was forced to come here at 3 years old can most likely read, write, and speak fluent English. I don't think they should be put ahead of other immigrants, but in the same line. Pay the same fees, take the same tests, meet the same requirements, fill out the same paperwork. The only difference is that it would be easier for them to obtain conditional temporary citizenship. Now that passports are required to get into and out of Mexico, I can't imagine any 17 year old, with no documentation from either country having an easy time smuggling themselves back across the border without getting caught and forcefully deported anyway. Unless there is a Mexican embassy somewhere around here. It does nothing to deter furture immigration, but it's no different (in fact a little more complicated) than throwing a pregnant woman over the line so her child is born here, something that is also done all of the time. It will still be a problem, but I don't see how it would really hurt legal immigrants.

Oh, and yep. Accusing me of engaging in racism, without any legit grounds to do so, without being able to point out any location where I actually made any racist remarks, and without a single identifiable reason except because you are of Mexican descent and feel an inherent need to defend "your people," is WAY more insulting than any rule I possibly broke in this thread.

Reported as well, lol!

I'm not mexican I'm eastern european. Still showing the same tendecy to spout shgit. and yes saven calling people trash because you don't like them( and your mexican comments makes me think you believe all illegals are from latin america) is in fact racist. You have yet to say anything about the asian illegals but have focused on those from latin america.




and I have pointed it out. So lets see your racist, to lazy to read post, and to lazy to get your facts straight tell me why should we take you seriously.