Does God regularly reward rebellion?

God, in the beginning, rebelled against the status quo that he had lived in for millennia.
He rejected what was and created what we have today and gained a reward, pleasure. He was pleased and named it all good. To insure that the trend of rebellion continued, he brought Satan to earth and ordered him to tempt Adam and Eve. The only way Adam and Eve could know that they were autonomous entities was to go against God’s command.

Satan is said to be the first autonomous entity, other than God, to rebel. He was rewarded by being named the King of this world. God’s jewel and greatest achievement till that time. This truth is exemplified by his tempting Jesus by offering him the world. If it was not his world to give, there would not have been a temptation for Jesus to face and master. Mark 1: 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan.

Adam and Eve were next to rebel. Their reward as we know was to be elevated to God like status. Genesis : 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. They were also given dominion of the earth, as is plain to see.

Moses, rebelled against Pharaoh and was also rewarded with a kingdom. Israel. Noah, rebelled against the rest of mankind and was rewarded with a new earth.

Jesus rebelled against the status quo of the written laws and was rewarded by being said to have saved the whole of mankind. Even as believers think only their pitiful little numbers are saved. A hold over from old tribal thinking.

There can only be one conclusion to what is written. God regularly rewards rebellion.

In heaven as on earth.
Mankind does the same. In these times in the middle east, we see much rebellion against authority, while we in the west are applauding their efforts and indeed, helping them to the best of our present capabilities.

We also have our own examples of the benefits of rebellion.
The U S rebellion against England. Canada’s rebellion against our own European masters. Our own rebellious hero’s such as Rosa Parks and Louis Riel. In these cases, not only personal fame was gained but also a betterment for all of us.

There can only be one conclusion here as well. Man regularly rewards rebellion.

Now the ancient Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures of Eden as the elevation of mankind. To know good and evil, the root of our moral sense, and be as knowledgeable as God, was seen as a great benefit. Somehow, Christianity turned that view, which was consistent with the above precedent, to one of a fall for mankind.

This Gnostic Christian disagrees with the Christian view because, first of all, I would not want to live like a dumb animal, without a moral sense or being able to recognize good and evil at a level higher than instincts. Further, we all know that almost any topic or issue you can think of has good and evil implications and conditions and without knowledge of good and evil, we would not even be able to discuss much of anything and society would stagnate.

Rebellion, from the Christian viewpoint, is a sin and evil and Eden was our fall.
If we go with this view, we must see reality somehow going against Gods wishes and must see him as a loser.

If we go with Gnostic Christian, Hebrew and Jewish interpretations, we end with a God who is a winner.

God and mankind thus seem to benefit to a huge extent thanks to rebellion and sin.
Would our secular laws be as good as they are if people had not rebelled against the older religious laws and amended them to the degree we have?

Should Christianity and other non progressive religions, notably Islam, rebel against their more draconian laws and continue the trend of benefiting from rebellion?

Does God and man regularly reward rebellion?

Regards
DL

I don't know , but I understand what you are talking about clearly . Rebellion is similar to evolution if you ask Me . It creates change and change is one thing that seems to be constant in life .
The fall is misinterpreted I think. If you combine it with alien mythology of serpent people crashing or landing on earth you can get a feel for a new interpretation of the fall concept . As I take a looksy at the Sumerian myths I see the versing similar to fall concepts . To me it all boils down to someone saying Hey this is the way and if it is then eventually the rest of the people say hey they were right lets go that way . So consider Eresh-Ki-Gal the Goddess of the underground went there of her own free will in some ancient myths. More fall concepts I believe . Think were we would be if proverbial Eve never stood up. I bet back in the day everyone was thinking " What a friggen fruit cake that Eve is , Can you believe what she has been doing . Standing on her back legs only . She is going to hurt her self . Look at Mikey , He likes it , Oh Mikey likes every thing . Well now we got 2 crazy people standing . Mikey and Eve

Thanks for this and yes, it is evolution at work.
Now if the Christians and Muslims would just recognize their fatal to thought error about Eden, perhaps they too could evolve their stagnating laws.
They are doing way to much harm to society.

Regards
DL

Thanks for this and yes, it is evolution at work.
Now if the Christians and Muslims would just recognize their fatal to thought error about Eden, perhaps they too could evolve their stagnating laws.
They are doing way to much harm to society.

Regards
DL

I don't know . I like to consider displacement and resistance a form of expression by the act of displacing . The old ways pass in slow motion because of displacement if you ask Me . Indoctrination of systems run deep in society . Real people base there lively hoods off of past systems and if you jerk the rug out from underneath there foundation bewilderment and confusion might fill the void and tumble into complete chaos . Hey that sounds like life as we know it as of late .

I don't know . I like to consider displacement and resistance a form of expression by the act of displacing . The old ways pass in slow motion because of displacement if you ask Me . Indoctrination of systems run deep in society . Real people base there lively hoods off of past systems and if you jerk the rug out from underneath there foundation bewilderment and confusion might fill the void and tumble into complete chaos . Hey that sounds like life as we know it as of late .

Yes. A measured approach is best if you can keep some momentum in it.

Of late though, I see more control and less chaos.
There is a lot of turbulence in the midle east that can be seen as chaos but I see the organization of dissent as a stabilizing trend for the populations and chaos for the tyrannical leadership.

Regards
DL

gia,

jesus is the greatest revolutionary of our time, and if people who call themselves christians don't understand that, then they don't understand him.

not only to rebel against sin, but to conquer it once and for all.

what more triumphant rebellion could there be than the annihilation of the sin that rules us?

none, that's what.

No one would have heard about him had the Roman emperor Constantine not make Christianity the official religion of Rome.

No one would have heard about him had the Roman emperor Constantine not make Christianity the official religion of Rome.

so?

That's why you believe in it, not because he was such a great revolutionary.

That's why you believe in it, not because he was such a great revolutionary.

no it's not. jesus spider, don't you listen to anything i say? ever? i don't believe it just because it's written down.

but just to play devil's advocate, what if i did? so?

So these beliefs are an arbitrary cultural form. The essential thing is your ability to have a spiritual experience, not the truth of the details about vicarious redemption for "sin" or the idea of eternal life, etc... I suggest that if our culture valued a god of corn, you would incorporate that into the interpretation of your hallucinations instead of some rebellious Jew.

So these beliefs are an arbitrary cultural form. The essential thing is your ability to have a spiritual experience, not the truth of the details about vicarious redemption for "sin" or the idea of eternal life, etc... I suggest that if our culture valued a god of corn, you would incorporate that into the interpretation of your hallucinations instead of some rebellious Jew.

to my knowledge the only time i've ever hallucinated was about 20 years ago. some disappointing tracer off of a tie-dye table skirt when i was tripping. i haven't since.

What was the thing about the paper?

What was the thing about the paper?

yeah what about it? i fucking watched it. it fucking happened, and i'm cognizant enough to know when i'm tripping and when i'm stone cold sober.

just because you don't believe it and i can't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

it fucking happened.

and that's not all that's happened. as a matter of fact, by that point to me, the event was wondrous, but at the same time blaze. it didn't surprise me that much. a little.

Didn't say you were tripping.

Didn't say you were tripping.

whatever.

back to the point of having heard it and having it match my experience to the point where i believed it. i believe in fate and that everything happens for a good reason.

i believe in fate and that everything happens for a good reason.

if you really believed that, then you wouldn't need to see any faults to be corrected in the world.

if you really believed that, then you wouldn't need to see any faults to be corrected in the world.

no i don't see that. imo, the consequences of evil being what they are, suffering and death, is a good thing. leads me to discern that evil is a bad thing...something that we don't have to choose...something that i personally would like to get rid of.

gia,

jesus is the greatest revolutionary of our time, and if people who call themselves christians don't understand that, then they don't understand him.

not only to rebel against sin, but to conquer it once and for all.

what more triumphant rebellion could there be than the annihilation of the sin that rules us?

none, that's what.

I agree that he was a rebel and showed his reward in the O P.
Pay attention.

And what is the big deal with his conquering sin. Can God not conquer what he himself created?

Let's see, I will create sin, then make a show of conquering it and become the super hero of the whole world. Jesus looks like a glory hog.

Regards
DL

it fucking happened.



Dream on.

no i don't see that. imo, the consequences of evil being what they are, suffering and death, is a good thing. leads me to discern that evil is a bad thing...something that we don't have to choose...something that i personally would like to get rid of.

You would like to get rid of what God created. Why not good at the same time? Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

I agree that he was a rebel and showed his reward in the O P.
Pay attention.

And what is the big deal with his conquering sin. Can God not conquer what he himself created?

Let's see, I will create sin, then make a show of conquering it and become the super hero of the whole world. Jesus looks like a glory hog.

Regards
DL

ffs gia, you are definitely the self-proclaimed glory hog here.

yes, god can conquer it. jesus is the method. now you pay attention. how did you think it would happen, by magic? a better religion? ah yes, that's your answer...a better religion.

good luck with that. :rolleyes:

You would like to get rid of what God created. Why not good at the same time? Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

good and evil are always possibilities. you choose.

i would prefer to live in a world where people choose good.

why do you have such a problem with that?

Dream on.

Good song. Dream until your dreams come true.

Oh wait, are you suggesting that I dreamt it? That I was asleep? No, I was entirely sober and awake. It was the middle of the afternoon, I had just gotten back from a quick trip to walgreens for a cassette tape. I wanted to make a copy of an old tape I had. When I opened the player there was a tape in it already so I pushed play to see what was on it. It was a mix tape one of my friends had accidentally left there a while ago. I was sitting there listening and the paper did its thing.

Afterwards I did go upstairs and take a nap and a few hours later when I woke up the paper had still done its thing. Was I dreaming all that too? Have I woken up yet or am I dreaming I'm typing this right now?

Man does not reward rebellion: governments do not give in to terrorism because the terrorists will learn that their methods are successful; the negotiators will have taught them that by giving in to their demands.

ffs gia, you are definitely the self-proclaimed glory hog here.

yes, god can conquer it. jesus is the method. now you pay attention. how did you think it would happen, by magic?

take the magic out of the Jesus myth and there is nothing left. Invisible flying sperm indeed.


a better religion? ah yes, that's your answer...a better religion.

good luck with that. :rolleyes:

It would sure beat your scapegoat and profiting from the murder of an innocent man theology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQpRZJl18&feature=related

Regards
DL

good and evil are always possibilities. you choose.

i would prefer to live in a world where people choose good.

why do you have such a problem with that?

Show where I said such a thing.
You cannot so stop trying to put your lies in my mouth.

Regards
DL

So these beliefs are an arbitrary cultural form. The essential thing is your ability to have a spiritual experience, not the truth of the details about vicarious redemption for "sin" or the idea of eternal life, etc... I suggest that if our culture valued a god of corn, you would incorporate that into the interpretation of your hallucinations instead of some rebellious Jew.
Your talking about the Lord Of the Harvest now . Jesus talked about Him you know . The God of Corn is real and Jesus knew it . Ah what was his name again ? The beginning and the end dude of agriculture ? There was one in the beginning and there is only one now .

It would sure beat your scapegoat and profiting from the murder of an innocent man theology.

Regards
DL

what scapegoat? a scapegoat for what? god has done work in me that i couldn't do myself, but the work has been done.

and profit as in greed? god has more than enough grace to go around and i dare say that if he didn't want to help he would not.


Show where I said such a thing.
You cannot so stop trying to put your lies in my mouth.

Regards
DL

then what are you squawking about? if you don't have a problem with getting rid of sin, then i guess you're just salty it's him doing it and not you. you seem like a real egomaniac, and you're jealous of god.

what scapegoat? a scapegoat for what? god has done work in me that i couldn't do myself, but the work has been done.

and profit as in greed? god has more than enough grace to go around and i dare say that if he didn't want to help he would not.



then what are you squawking about? if you don't have a problem with getting rid of sin, then i guess you're just salty it's him doing it and not you. you seem like a real egomaniac, and you're jealous of god.
The scape goat would be the German wood god . He was known to live in the Teutoberg Forest in the Westphalia area . Yeah Way ! I think he is an extension of Arminus , yet the God may go back further in history. That was about 9 a.d. He kicked the shit out of Romans . Romans didn't want anything to do with Germans for a long time because of it. It is funny how Charlemagne ended up being who he was in light of the past if you ask Me . A guy from Westphalia . History can be funny that way

The scape goat would be the German wood god . He was known to live in the Teutoberg Forest in the Westphalia area .
:confused:

The word "scapegoat" is a mistranslation of the word Azazel (In Hebrew: עזאזל). The Septuagint, an early Greek translation of the Old Testament, had incorrectly translated Azazel as ez ozel – literally, "the goat that departs" – and translated the word as tragos apopompaios, meaning "goat sent out".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating

:confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating

Thanx crankmyster , Old connect the dots person you are . Love Ya. Azazel has a ring of Melek Taus and the name Israel too . Do you think ? It is said the Germans showed up about 300 B.C. in Germany . I don't know if that is true ? Speculated there was a migration of humans towards the north about that time . I would think there was already tribes in the area already . I don't know for sure but maybe it was a warm period around then . Or maybe they wanted to get away from Alexander type personalities . Yeah trying to get away from persecution. Like the protestants did after the Peace of Westphalia

Does God regularly reward rebellion?

God, in the beginning, rebelled against the status quo that he had lived in for millennia.
He rejected what was and created what we have today and gained a reward, pleasure. He was pleased and named it all good. To insure that the trend of rebellion continued, he brought Satan to earth and ordered him to tempt Adam and Eve. The only way Adam and Eve could know that they were autonomous entities was to go against God’s command.

Are you saying that God "chooses" (note the quotes indicating lack of free will) to defy his own ability to create perfect things? It would seem so.


Satan is said to be the first autonomous entity, other than God, to rebel. He was rewarded by being named the King of this world. God’s jewel and greatest achievement till that time. This truth is exemplified by his tempting Jesus by offering him the world. If it was not his world to give, there would not have been a temptation for Jesus to face and master. Mark 1: 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan.

God sounds like a fucking idiot to be honest with no free will just like every other living thing.


Adam and Eve were next to rebel. Their reward as we know was to be elevated to God like status. Genesis : 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. They were also given dominion of the earth, as is plain to see.

Obladee obladda life goes on.


Moses, rebelled against Pharaoh and was also rewarded with a kingdom. Israel. Noah, rebelled against the rest of mankind and was rewarded with a new earth.

How did Noah rebel? i thought he just listened to God's voice and followed his commands?


Jesus rebelled against the status quo of the written laws and was rewarded by being said to have saved the whole of mankind. Even as believers think only their pitiful little numbers are saved. A hold over from old tribal thinking.

I think Jesus Christ was the shit. He wore long dirty robes and yet still made healing the blind and dancing with the lepers a beautiful thing.


There can only be one conclusion to what is written. God regularly rewards rebellion.

Okay, so does that give us a ticket to go out and deliberate into the province of rebellion?

OP should specify what sense of god he is discussing it's a very broad moot point presently. Christian/organized religion sense of god than yes, god himself does plenty of evil himself. In non organized religion sense god does as well because irritation and change is the only thing that we can ascertain from this physical reality and its corresponding non physical nature.

Afterwards I did go upstairs and take a nap

See, it was dream. Just with the phenomenon known as 'false awakening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening)'.

I've had it several times, the last time I woke up to discover a dark haired woman was strangling me. She was very strong, only using one hand, but had me pinned down. I struggled, screamed, thrashed around, got onto my stomach, and then managed to stand, and turn around. She wasn't in the room, so I ran into the kitchen, got a knife, checked the back door was still locked, and removed the key. Then did the same with the front door, and then checked every fucking room, and she wasn't there. Then I realised it had just been a dream. All windows and doors were locked, there's no way anybody could have got in or out, and I had experienced a false awakening. It seemed so very real at the time, as the others I had did too. But you have to realise these things are merely dreams Lori.

See, it was dream. Just with the phenomenon known as 'false awakening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening)'.

I've had it several times, the last time I woke up to discover a dark haired woman was strangling me. She was very strong, only using one hand, but had me pinned down. I struggled, screamed, thrashed around, got onto my stomach, and then managed to stand, and turn around. She wasn't in the room, so I ran into the kitchen, got a knife, checked the back door was still locked, and removed the key. Then did the same with the front door, and then checked every fucking room, and she wasn't there. Then I realised it had just been a dream. All windows and doors were locked, there's no way anybody could have got in or out, and I had experienced a false awakening. It seemed so very real at the time, as the others I had did too. But you have to realise these things are merely dreams Lori.

So you're saying I'm still asleep then. Interesting. Do all of you members realize you're just a figment of my imagination? We're not really having this discussion right now.

So you're saying I'm still asleep then. Interesting. Do all of you members realize you're just a figment of my imagination? We're not really having this discussion right now.

Stop being obtuse. I am saying that you were, not are. Such petty diversions do nothing to make you seem credible Lori.

Stop being obtuse. I am saying that you were, not are. Such petty diversions do nothing to make you seem credible Lori.

i don't think that you pretending to know when i'm awake and when i'm asleep makes you seem credible phlog.

that day, i had woken at the usual 8:30 am and had already had a productive day. i had already driven to my aunt's house and back to pick up the cassette that i wanted to make a copy of. i was very exuberant; told her i was on a mission from god. i'm sure she remembers that. it's a 45 min cruise to her place one way. i didn't do that in my sleep. i came home, realized i needed a blank tape, went to get one, came back, and then what i told you happened happened. then i went upstairs to bed and took a nap. then i was awakened by a phone call that scared the shit out of me, then god yelled at me, and then i went back downstairs, gathered up all of the stationery, that was still in the same morphed state i had watched it turn into hours ago, a notebook, and a full carton of cigs, and set them all on fire in the fireplace. a year later when i cleaned out the fireplace, i picked up the wire spiral from the ashes and stared at it remembering what a trip that day had been.

now then, at what point did i wake up?

i don't think that you pretending to know when i'm awake and when i'm asleep makes you seem credible phlog.

Let's look at the evidence:

1, You experienced a well documented sleep disorder.
2, The supreme being, creator of the Universe spoke to you by crumpling up some paper.

Get real, get sane, and stop hawking your bullshit.

I know it felt real, I have had real feeling experiences, as documented here. I realised mine for what it was, that's the only difference. Realise this and get sane.

i don't think that you pretending to know when i'm awake and when i'm asleep makes you seem credible phlog.

that day, i had woken at the usual 8:30 am and had already had a productive day. i had already driven to my aunt's house and back to pick up the cassette that i wanted to make a copy of. i was very exuberant; told her i was on a mission from god. i'm sure she remembers that. it's a 45 min cruise to her place one way. i didn't do that in my sleep. i came home, realized i needed a blank tape, went to get one, came back, and then what i told you happened happened. then i went upstairs to bed and took a nap. then i was awakened by a phone call that scared the shit out of me, then god yelled at me, and then i went back downstairs, gathered up all of the stationery, that was still in the same morphed state i had watched it turn into hours ago, a notebook, and a full carton of cigs, and set them all on fire in the fireplace. a year later when i cleaned out the fireplace, i picked up the wire spiral from the ashes and stared at it remembering what a trip that day had been.

now then, at what point did i wake up?

Was this a one time experience or does it happen often. If it happens often, I think you should see a doctor. Just in case it isn't actually God speaking to you but some sort of mental disorder. Not that i want to question that he does, but it's better to be on the safe side in these matters, I think.

Was this a one time experience or does it happen often. If it happens often, I think you should see a doctor. Just in case it isn't actually God speaking to you but some sort of mental disorder. Not that i want to question that he does, but it's better to be on the safe side in these matters, I think.

this event was different from god speaking to me. perhaps a communication; i took it that way, but...we're discussing a particular event during which i sat and watched a piece of paper and some stationery packaging move and morph shape on my coffee table, seemingly all by itself, but we all know that paper doesn't move or change shape by itself. there was apparently some unseen force at work. i don't know what it was exactly. what i do know is that i was not hallucinating nor was i asleep.

what i do know is that i was not hallucinating nor was i asleep.

Which is exactly what you experience during a false awakening, you don't think you are asleep!

Either she has a false awakening or she witnessed some sort of miracle. I guess it's 50/50.

Let's look at the evidence:

1, You experienced a well documented sleep disorder.
2, The supreme being, creator of the Universe spoke to you by crumpling up some paper.

Get real, get sane, and stop hawking your bullshit.

I know it felt real, I have had real feeling experiences, as documented here. I realised mine for what it was, that's the only difference. Realise this and get sane.

so in other words, in order for me to be "sane", i have to have the same experiences you do, or at the very least, interpret my experiences the same way? talk about bullshit!

there is no evidence that i have or have had any sleep disorder. i have never been diagnosed with a sleep disorder. there is no evidence that i have ever hallucinated. as a matter of fact, i couldn't even manage to hallucinate back in college when tried a little lsd and wanted to! and you were not there, nor was anyone else there to witness what happened. if there had been, you know damn well you wouldn't believe them either. if i had filmed it you'd say it was a fake. and if you had been there, you would either convince yourself you were asleep when you saw it, or immediately take yourself to the doctor.

i'm going to call you and spidergoat hypocrits right now because you guys are doing the same thing you rip on religious people for doing. you guys don't have any evidence about what happened to me at all, except my testimony. and you don't even care which explaination it is, hallucination, sleep disorder, an outright lie. as long as it jives with what you don't want to believe. that an unseen force moved some stuff around on my coffee table? and why? is it because there are no unseen forces in the universe? no. because we know all there is to know about the forces in our universe? no. because you know a goddamn thing about me or what i experienced? no! it's because you guy's egos are so closely attached to your beliefs, and you are terrified of the notion of a god or a spiritual realm existing, and that theists are right.

Either she has a false awakening or she witnessed some sort of miracle. I guess it's 50/50.

what's a miracle really? everything's a miracle; nothing's a miracle. it was just unusual perhaps, and unexplained. and that's really nothing new.

Which is exactly what you experience during a false awakening, you don't think you are asleep!

I WASN'T ASLEEP FFS, I HAD BEEN AWAKE FOR HOURS. :mad:

See, it was dream. Just with the phenomenon known as 'false awakening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening)'.

I've had it several times, the last time I woke up to discover a dark haired woman was strangling me. She was very strong, only using one hand, but had me pinned down. I struggled, screamed, thrashed around, got onto my stomach, and then managed to stand, and turn around. She wasn't in the room, so I ran into the kitchen, got a knife, checked the back door was still locked, and removed the key. Then did the same with the front door, and then checked every fucking room, and she wasn't there. Then I realised it had just been a dream. All windows and doors were locked, there's no way anybody could have got in or out, and I had experienced a false awakening. It seemed so very real at the time, as the others I had did too. But you have to realise these things are merely dreams Lori.

heh, you apparently don't have very good perception of reality. when you really do wake from a dream, you tend to know immediately that what you just experienced was a dream no matter how vivid it was. the fact you had to get a knife and check the door means either you are retarded or can't distinguish reality from your dream very well.

another stupid thing you are doing is projecting your own experiences and explanations on other's experiences when these types of experiences are so varied in complexity between one person and another. it's not as general as people assume. it's obvious since these are considered "unsusual" in so many ways. this is what i've noticed these so-called scientific and logical idiots do for all experiences that they cannot relate to or they try to rationalize them all with very little knowledge or understanding themselves. that's an extremely weak argument as well and not even logical.

some people's experiences are easily explained by them providing details and some are just not and the ones that aren't are what bug cowards so much they've got to find some way to shut others up to make them feel safe about the world.

Are you saying that God "chooses" (note the quotes indicating lack of free will) to defy his own ability to create perfect things? It would seem so.



God sounds like a fucking idiot to be honest with no free will just like every other living thing.



Obladee obladda life goes on.



How did Noah rebel? i thought he just listened to God's voice and followed his commands?



I think Jesus Christ was the shit. He wore long dirty robes and yet still made healing the blind and dancing with the lepers a beautiful thing.



Okay, so does that give us a ticket to go out and deliberate into the province of rebellion?

Would you tell Rosa Parks that she did the wrong thing?

As to Noah.
If Noah believed in the sanctity of human life, and lived by Jesus’ command to do to your neighbor as yourself....he would refuse to build the ark. It is a moral issue, Had Noah done that, God would have had to kill everyone, or no one. This sort of moral position is upheld occasionally when a person refuses to back down, even at the cost of his life. We revere a person like this, call them heroes. This is NOT the cloth Noah was cut from.

Fact is, he rebelled agains the teachings of Jesus and became a traitor to humanity for an alien God. Traitors rebel against their own and that is exactly what he did.

Regards
DL

OP should specify what sense of god he is discussing it's a very broad moot point presently. Christian/organized religion sense of god than yes, god himself does plenty of evil himself. In non organized religion sense god does as well because irritation and change is the only thing that we can ascertain from this physical reality and its corresponding non physical nature.

I guess you missed all the Christian dogma.

Regards
DL

There is an O P people and Lori is not it.

The topic is rebellion. Not a stupid poster.

Regards
DL

There is an O P people and Lori is not it.

The topic is rebellion. Not a stupid poster.

Regards
DL

you sound like a child.

"stupid" because i have more faith in jesus than i do in you. hahaha...

yeah.

Either she has a false awakening or she witnessed some sort of miracle. I guess it's 50/50.

Or aliens took over mind, so it's 33.333/33.333/33.333

Or the Flyging Spaghetti monster may have been involved so it's 25/25/25/25

or any number of other ludicrous scenarios,....

No, she had a false awakening, or some other mental aberration, 100%.

I WASN'T ASLEEP FFS, I HAD BEEN AWAKE FOR HOURS. :mad:

And lapsed into sleep for this episode. My false awakening started with me awake, reading, sat up in bed. That is where I nodded off, and had my false awakening, and that is where I actually awoke. It was seemless, perfectly real, until I realised it couldn't have been.

I understand these experiences feel real, but they aren't. You had a funny dream. I mean, god, calling you on the telephone? Come on, that's your psyche telling you a method of communication is necessary! Classic blending of reality in a dream, Lori.

And lapsed into sleep for this episode. My false awakening started with me awake, reading, sat up in bed. That is where I nodded off, and had my false awakening, and that is where I actually awoke. It was seemless, perfectly real, until I realised it couldn't have been.

I understand these experiences feel real, but they aren't. You had a funny dream. I mean, god, calling you on the telephone? Come on, that's your psyche telling you a method of communication is necessary! Classic blending of reality in a dream, Lori.

no, no, it was my ex-husband on the phone! you are uber-projecting here. the experiences aren't even remotely similar.

heh, you apparently don't have very good perception of reality. when you really do wake from a dream, you tend to know immediately that what you just experienced was a dream no matter how vivid it was.

And you clearly aren't very well read or experienced in the matter! If you'd actually bothered to read and comprehend you would have understood how it linked togther, but you're just so keen to criticise because of your frustrations on other threads where you've utterly failed to make a compelling argument. But instead of letting it go, you are now embarrassing yourself here.


the fact you had to get a knife and check the door means either you are retarded or can't distinguish reality from your dream very well.

During a false awakening one is still asleep, which part of that don't you get? DUH! When you do awake, thrashing, that part, the actual thrashing, is real. Which part of this don't you get, DUH! It all ties together. Maybe if you had some more life experience you would be qualified to talk, but you haven't, so don't.


another stupid thing you are doing is projecting your own experiences and explanations on other's experiences when these types of experiences are so varied in complexity between one person and another.

It was an example, related by way of personal experience, of a well documented phenomenon. Show me any documentary evidence that Lori speaks to god!

no, no, it was my ex-husband on the phone! you are uber-projecting here. the experiences aren't even remotely similar.

You said:


then i was awakened by a phone call that scared the shit out of me, then god yelled at me

Excuse me for not knowing it was not god on the aforementioned phone, and it wasn't the ringing of the phone that startled you. I've not an expert in your delusions.

You said:



Excuse me for not knowing it was not god on the aforementioned phone, and it wasn't the ringing of the phone that startled you. I've not an expert in your delusions.

oh, so now you're not an expert. i see. i see that.

oh, so now you're not an expert. i see. i see that.

Your prose was not well constructed. You can't blame me for my interpretation of your delusion.

you sound like a child.

"stupid" because i have more faith in jesus than i do in you. hahaha...

yeah.

Faith without facts is for fools.

Being stupid and foolish is one thing.
Taking an immoral position is quite another.

Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.
Martin Luther

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Martin Luther

Regards
DL

Faith without facts is for fools.

Being stupid and foolish is one thing.
Taking an immoral position is quite another.

Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.
Martin Luther

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Martin Luther

Regards
DL

my position may or may not be immoral. morality is relative. my goal is to wipe evil off the face of the earth, and my faith is my trust in something i know. perhaps one day if you do for me what jesus has, then we can revisit this topic. until then.

morality is relative. my goal is to wipe evil off the face of the earth
Define "evil".
Is that, too, not relative?

Define "evil".
Is that, too, not relative?

immorality and evil are considered synonyms, but imo morality is mankind's relative way of interpreting something that is not relative, but is law. and i would define evil as anything which transgresses the law. god's law is something we haven't determined, so morality is our best guess. i guess.

immorality and evil are considered synonyms, but imo morality is mankind's relative way of interpreting something that is not relative, but is law. and i would define evil as anything which transgresses the law. god's law is something we haven't determined, so morality is our best guess. i guess.

IOW, your definition is meaningless rhetoric because it points at laws that are not defined.

Real deep thinking.

Regards
DL

IOW, your definition is meaningless rhetoric because it points at laws that are not defined.

Real deep thinking.

Regards
DL

so let me guess, the only evil that exists is that which you define as such according to your relative morality? you define what evil is? that law exists whether you've defined it accurately, or at all, or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9qAqwIW704&feature=related

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9qAqwIW704&feature=related

Regards
DL

kevin smith decides what's evil?

if evil is abstract, it certainly has some very tangible consequences.

:rolleyes:

Regards
DL

Ofcourse God rewards rebellion. God rewards every will.

One can go to the extent of evil being apart of god for it defines the values for good without it the term good and god is null and meaningless. All we know for sure is that experience exists. Without evil, experience would become meaningless untill it ceases to be conforming to our constantly-changing will. I suspect we would go back to a total-zero state if we can change the values of conflict to the extent of removing evil, even in an arbituary sense, it would be pointless. God must uphold evil as one of his most brilliant creations if you personify the concept of god or the contigent matter reality is based upon. Because without it we would just be stars :)

Ofcourse God rewards rebellion. God rewards every will.

One can go to the extent of evil being apart of god for it defines the values for good without it the term good and god is null and meaningless. All we know for sure is that experience exists. Without evil, experience would become meaningless untill it ceases to be conforming to our constantly-changing will. I suspect we would go back to a total-zero state if we can change the values of conflict to the extent of removing evil, even in an arbituary sense, it would be pointless. God must uphold evil as one of his most brilliant creations if you personify the concept of god or the contigent matter reality is based upon. Because without it we would just be stars :)

Good insight.

Regards
DL

Or aliens took over mind, so it's 33.333/33.333/33.333

Or the Flyging Spaghetti monster may have been involved so it's 25/25/25/25

or any number of other ludicrous scenarios,....

No, she had a false awakening, or some other mental aberration, 100%.

I was clearly joking. saying it is 50/50 is utter nonsense :)

Ofcourse God rewards rebellion. God rewards every will.

One can go to the extent of evil being apart of god for it defines the values for good without it the term good and god is null and meaningless. All we know for sure is that experience exists. Without evil, experience would become meaningless untill it ceases to be conforming to our constantly-changing will. I suspect we would go back to a total-zero state if we can change the values of conflict to the extent of removing evil, even in an arbituary sense, it would be pointless. God must uphold evil as one of his most brilliant creations if you personify the concept of god or the contigent matter reality is based upon. Because without it we would just be stars :)

evil is just one part of the dichotomy that creation is contingent on. it's the "wrong" part. so, what are the "rewards" of evil? destruction, suffering, and death? some of us think the only reward is knowledge, and we know enough now to make the right choice.

evil is just one part of the dichotomy that creation is contingent on. it's the "wrong" part. so, what are the "rewards" of evil? destruction, suffering, and death? some of us think the only reward is knowledge, and we know enough now to make the right choice.

Lori.

Would you say that this, starting at the 2 min mark, is a goods example of the world you would create, without the knowledge of good and evil?
And why in hell would you want to create such a disgusting world of dumb humans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv7J9LtT95w&feature=related

Think of duality.

Regards
DL

Without evil, experience would become meaningless untill it ceases to be conforming to our constantly-changing will. I suspect we would go back to a total-zero state if we can change the values of conflict to the extent of removing evil, even in an arbituary sense, it would be pointless. God must uphold evil as one of his most brilliant creations if you personify the concept of god or the contigent matter reality is based upon.

this is disgusting. if you really believe that, you should be seeking out negative experiences or don't try to avoid harm in any way which i don't believe you would do. so many theists have this view. also, religionists who wish to go to heaven like the hypocrites they are. as for evil, there are people who do embrace it. it's not a matter of everyone just trying to embrace good but also experiencing the negative. some like the dark more. some like to rape, murder, steal, cheat etc.



One can go to the extent of evil being apart of god for it defines the values for good without it the term good and god is null and meaningless.

you have a slave's conditioned mentality. an orange is still an orange whether there are bananas around or not and vice versa. a pure glass of water is a pure glass of water. to say that some type of poison is necessary to be in it to appreciate that pure water is good, is moot. in short, theists are insane and even degenerately illogical. with this logic, you should try to hurt the people that you love so that they can appreciate the times you don't even more (doesn't work that way). that's not real appreciation, it's just adaptation. sick logic.

Lori.

Would you say that this, starting at the 2 min mark, is a goods example of the world you would create, without the knowledge of good and evil?
And why in hell would you want to create such a disgusting world of dumb humans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv7J9LtT95w&feature=related

Think of duality.

Regards
DL

i'm not suggesting a world without the knowledge of good and evil. i'm suggesting a world in which that knowledge is the basis people use to choose good and reject evil.

this is disgusting. if you really believe that, you should be seeking out negative experiences or don't try to avoid harm in any way which i don't believe you would do. so many theists have this view. also, religionists who wish to go to heaven like the hypocrites they are. as for evil, there are people who do embrace it. it's not a matter of everyone just trying to embrace good but also experiencing the negative. some like the dark more. some like to rape, murder, steal, cheat etc.




you have a slave's conditioned mentality. an orange is still an orange whether there are bananas around or not and vice versa. a pure glass of water is a pure glass of water. to say that some type of poison is necessary to be in it to appreciate that pure water is good, is moot. in short, theists are insane and even degenerately illogical. with this logic, you should try to hurt the people that you love so that they can appreciate the times you don't even more (doesn't work that way). that's not real appreciation, it's just adaptation. sick logic.

i'm a theist and i agree with you here, except for your assertion about us theists.

this is disgusting. if you really believe that, you should be seeking out negative experiences or don't try to avoid harm in any way which i don't believe you would do. so many theists have this view. also, religionists who wish to go to heaven like the hypocrites they are. as for evil, there are people who do embrace it. it's not a matter of everyone just trying to embrace good but also experiencing the negative. some like the dark more. some like to rape, murder, steal, cheat etc.




you have a slave's conditioned mentality. an orange is still an orange whether there are bananas around or not and vice versa. a pure glass of water is a pure glass of water. to say that some type of poison is necessary to be in it to appreciate that pure water is good, is moot. in short, theists are insane and even degenerately illogical. with this logic, you should try to hurt the people that you love so that they can appreciate the times you don't even more (doesn't work that way). that's not real appreciation, it's just adaptation. sick logic.

The term God is meant to be the epitome of all attributes. Those would include both Good and Evil. To give a higher rating, so to speak, to anything, is to break the first commandment.

Regards
DL

i'm not suggesting a world without the knowledge of good and evil. i'm suggesting a world in which that knowledge is the basis people use to choose good and reject evil.

I wrote an O P on how Eve did the right thing in eating of the knowledge of good and evil. Few agreed. I see that you do. Nice. Rather Gnostic. Nicer.

Regards
DL

Good and evil is as arbituary as happy and pain.
Some machistics(?) like to feel pain to an extent in that it gives them pleasure or "degree of hapiness" same can be said about heavy drugs.
Does it make it evil or good.....overpopulation control idealsm is good but reality is evil...I mean even from a thiest view point, who are we to judge what is good and evil outside our own paramaters? God must like the rebel because if everybody were goody too shoes it would render existance to be obselete.

In other words if we were HAPPY all the time and were "ignorant" of "knowledge" like the bible were no different than the handicap who are "happy" by default.... it would eventually make life meaningless and our ever changing will is going to subsitute "pain" with "happy" if that makes sense.

Good and evil is as arbituary as happy and pain.
Some machistics(?) like to feel pain to an extent in that it gives them pleasure or "degree of hapiness" same can be said about heavy drugs.

no, you are seriously mangling context. what someone likes to inflict on themselves is different than inflicting it on another. this is why you respect other people's wishes and don't inflict on others what they don't want, which will be made known from the beginning or eventually. your sick point of view doesn't surprise me for a theist.


In other words if we were HAPPY all the time and were "ignorant" of "knowledge" like the bible were no different than the handicap who are "happy" by default.... it would eventually make life meaningless and our ever changing will is going to subsitute "pain" with "happy" if that makes sense.

you, like many, don't understand cause and effect. all the feelings and sensations we experience is to help our survival. it is not there just to know good and evil or to know happy vs sad as you think. you have it backwards.

I wrote an O P on how Eve did the right thing in eating of the knowledge of good and evil. Few agreed. I see that you do. Nice. Rather Gnostic. Nicer.

Regards
DL
Yeah buddy she was a friggen saint . Eve was the star of the show . She still is and her day is at the brink of time . I got a feeling Man is going to pay big time for his greedy ways of denying Eve her just due . I heard a statistic here lately. Don't know if it is true or not . Here it is " Most murders are women killing men " Husbands I think . Don't know? sounded like it might be right with the way Man has abused women for so long

Good and evil is as arbituary as happy and pain.
Some machistics(?) like to feel pain to an extent in that it gives them pleasure or "degree of hapiness" same can be said about heavy drugs.
Does it make it evil or good.....overpopulation control idealsm is good but reality is evil...I mean even from a thiest view point, who are we to judge what is good and evil outside our own paramaters? God must like the rebel because if everybody were goody too shoes it would render existance to be obselete.

In other words if we were HAPPY all the time and were "ignorant" of "knowledge" like the bible were no different than the handicap who are "happy" by default.... it would eventually make life meaningless and our ever changing will is going to subsitute "pain" with "happy" if that makes sense.

are you trying to say that good and evil are determined by an emotional response or outcome? emotions don't really seem like a reliable indicator to me, and apparently to you as well.

i don't understand why you think that goodwill would render existence obsolete. can you explain please?

Yeah buddy she was a friggen saint . Eve was the star of the show . She still is and her day is at the brink of time . I got a feeling Man is going to pay big time for his greedy ways of denying Eve her just due . I heard a statistic here lately. Don't know if it is true or not . Here it is " Most murders are women killing men " Husbands I think . Don't know? sounded like it might be right with the way Man has abused women for so long

Perhaps we have paid with 3,000 years of unrest and war.
It may have turned around.

Regards
DL

this is disgusting. if you really believe that, you should be seeking out negative experiences or don't try to avoid harm in any way which i don't believe you would do. so many theists have this view. also, religionists who wish to go to heaven like the hypocrites they are. as for evil, there are people who do embrace it. it's not a matter of everyone just trying to embrace good but also experiencing the negative. some like the dark more. some like to rape, murder, steal, cheat etc.

Birch, your definitions of good & evil are not off base.
But they are relative. The constructs of evil and good are negated when its not relative. That was my only point. Not to say I prefer the "evil" construct but that its constructed from good. Your hyperbolizing this fact by stating: "you should be seeking out negative experiences" is bullshit because I'm saying that evil is the frame of reference we use for good. In other words, it is gods best invention.

What I'm saying is this: Can you imagine reality without evil? In a meaningful way? Before you anwser this; think about it. Dont let your reactive nature say yes without thinking. Reality would be meaningless.

I think your disgusting if you think that your life is more valuable than a cows life (thus the relative degree in the evil/good scale) but "Jesus" condones this. Who cares. If it wasnt evil I would suspect meat would just grow out of the fields without a complex consciousness.

What I'm saying is that without evil; on a relative degree as 'evil' as it sounds more evil would be the ultimate result. Lets pretend we found a way to make someone immortal.

Would this not be evil? Or result in evil rammifications? Ah...


you have a slave's conditioned mentality. an orange is still an orange whether there are bananas around or not and vice versa. a pure glass of water is a pure glass of water. to say that some type of poison is necessary to be in it to appreciate that pure water is good, is moot. in short, theists are insane and even degenerately illogical. with this logic, you should try to hurt the people that you love so that they can appreciate the times you don't even more (doesn't work that way). that's not real appreciation, it's just adaptation. sick logic.

Theists are insane, degenerately illogical? Explain what basis you draw this conclusion from? Wouldent you have to have knowledge on the premise before drawing this conclusion? What is logical about the premise of reality?

Hint: Nothing!

are you trying to say that good and evil are determined by an emotional response or outcome? emotions don't really seem like a reliable indicator to me, and apparently to you as well.

i don't understand why you think that goodwill would render existence obsolete. can you explain please?

Without conflict, pain, misery... life would be meaningless. If there was no obstacles to rejoice this feeling of happiness what would there be.

I cant even imagine pure unadultered good will. Im actually sure this is an oxymoron.:rolleyes:

Without conflict, pain, misery... life would be meaningless. If there was no obstacles to rejoice this feeling of happiness what would there be.

I cant even imagine pure unadultered good will. Im actually sure this is an oxymoron.:rolleyes:

so you think the meaning of life is to suffer? that's horrible. it's shocking to me that you can't comprehend achieving anything without misery. why can't love and joy be motivators?