I am often quite amazed at the tenacity and drive that atheists put into bringing to light the things that appear 'mysterious' or 'supernatural' to others that are usually quite happy for the things to remain as mysteries.

The atheist typically states that people who would rather attribute apparent mysterious activity to something outside of the realm of physics, are revelling in delusion and fantasy. The person who enjoys the mysteries of this life naturally rebels against the idea that they are somehow inferior to the atheist in their thinking and so they usually take up a defensive position.

Since the atheist thrives on debunking mysteries, is there not a symbiotic relationship between those who love mystery and those who love cold hard facts?

Would a state of 'no mystery' be utopian to the atheist or would the atheist prefer that there would always be some mystery to solve?

This is a philosophical question aimed at atheists predominantly although as usual all comments are welcome as long as we try keep within the broad realms of philosophy and do not compact it back to religous arguments (please :) ).

Thanks

c20

I am often quite amazed at the tenacity and drive that atheists put into bringing to light the things that appear 'mysterious' or 'supernatural' to others that are usually quite happy for the things to remain as mysteries.

Perhaps atheists don't wish to remain ignorant.

The atheist typically states that people who would rather attribute apparent mysterious activity to something outside of the realm of physics, are revelling in delusion and fantasy.

They attribute to the supernatural or realm outside of physics because they want to. To them, revelling in delusion and fantasy is far more interesting than boring old reality.

And of course, since they already have been told to believe in gods, angels, demons and the lot, they'll believe in anything. That has been made evidently clear here on these boards.

Since the atheist thrives on debunking mysteries, is there not a symbiotic relationship between those who love mystery and those who love cold hard facts?

The atheist thrives on knowledge and understanding, not debunking claims made by dougheads. I see no symbiosis in that.

Would a state of 'no mystery' be utopian to the atheist or would the atheist prefer that there would always be some mystery to solve?

Good question. To know all there is to know is an attractive concept to any scientist, but to continue debunking claims made by psuedo-scientists, crackpots and theists is not something to be desired, now or then.

Would a state of 'no mystery' be utopian to the atheist or would the atheist prefer that there would always be some mystery to solve?

No, because atheists know there's no such thing as a utopian society, for that's a fantasy world created by those who want to believe in fantasies.

No, because atheists know there's no such thing as a utopian society, for that's a fantasy world created by those who want to believe in fantasies.

Try to read between the lines and put the words into the correct context if you will. The word utopian in this context clearly means 'preferred state' given that the alternative was 'or would they prefer...'

Why all the damned pedantry?

c20

No, because atheists know there's no such thing as a utopian society.

Of all the millions of different atheists with the hundreds of different philosophies and ideals they hold, you cant possibly make that statement and be serious??

I would say some atheists seek a utopia where religion does not exists.

Many in the field of science (who may be atheist) seek a utopia where disease and even death dont exist.

There have been political utopian movements as well.

There have been political utopian movements as well.

And they are all just fantisies as well. No such thing as "perfect" when humans are involved for there's always going to someone who wants more than the other person whether in money or power.

Perhaps you are correct. Atheists my tend to debunk mysteries, like Houdini debunked fake psychics, not because they prefer a world without mystery, but because they want to find out the truth. I think Houdini was a superior mystic to those who simply accepted the powers of charlatans. He wanted to know for sure, he wanted to find the real thing.

I think belief in God handicaps people in finding out the deeper mysteries of life, because it's a way of giving up the mysterious in favor of a known ideology.

You can believe in anything you want and still learn allot about many things. Believing in something doesn't prevent you from learning about other things.

I am often quite amazed at the tenacity and drive that atheists put into bringing to light the things that appear 'mysterious' or 'supernatural' to others that are usually quite happy for the things to remain as mysteries.

The atheist typically states that people who would rather attribute apparent mysterious activity to something outside of the realm of physics, are revelling in delusion and fantasy. The person who enjoys the mysteries of this life naturally rebels against the idea that they are somehow inferior to the atheist in their thinking and so they usually take up a defensive position.

Since the atheist thrives on debunking mysteries, is there not a symbiotic relationship between those who love mystery and those who love cold hard facts?

Would a state of 'no mystery' be utopian to the atheist or would the atheist prefer that there would always be some mystery to solve?

This is a philosophical question aimed at atheists predominantly although as usual all comments are welcome as long as we try keep within the broad realms of philosophy and do not compact it back to religous arguments (please :) ).

Thanks

c20


undestanding something weird is very satisfying.and plus you can know things with them still being mysterious.like i know a bit about galaxies and stars but everytime i look up at the night sky it still blows my mind.i dont think there ever can be such a thing as a no mystery state,we would have to be taught absolutely everything about everything and i dont think we have the time.if you meen in a matrixy sense where we just download knowledge of everything then no,i dont think that would be ideal at all.struggling with things makes working out the answer mean something.

Yes, you can never really eliminate the mystery. Scientists delve into the atom and the electron, and only reveal greater mysteries.

It's the typical theist that loves cold, hard facts.
They want every answer, so they are given a little book with supposedly all the answers in it.
Finito, no more thinking, everything is clear! Allahu akbar! Jesus is our lord!

I find your opening post filled with flaws OM.

I am often quite amazed at the tenacity and drive that atheists put into bringing to light the things that appear 'mysterious' or 'supernatural' to others that are usually quite happy for the things to remain as mysteries.You seem to be working on the premise that debunkers are all and only atheists.
Had you replaced atheists with scientists the thread would have made more sense.

Since the atheist thrives on debunking mysteries, is there not a symbiotic relationship between those who love mystery and those who love cold hard facts?What nonsense. The scientist thrives on investigating the mysteries of nature and elucidating them. That is quite a different thing.
Debunking is a part time occupation carried out for a variety of reasons, including, but probably not limited to a) an attempt at education of those with fanciful ideas; b) self education, through research necessary to properly debunk the arguments c) an affronted reaction at the nonsense being purveyed d) practice at writing and debating skills e)nothing on the TV.

Before I would want to proceed further in this debate I would want to see some evidence that there is any truth in your premise, otherwise I'd rather argue how many angels we can get on a pinhead.

Atheism means freedom to think straight and vision to see through all the manipulative bullshit spouted by all religions and 'faiths'.

There is a common understanding between anyone who doesn't follow religion, that human experiences can not be trusted. We only have very primitive senses which when we see something unusual, we develop our own interpretation of it. Even when presented with what is the simplest and most probable explanation, we continue to have the will to believe the extravagant. Which is a shame, because there are some things which probably have an interesting explanation, but is shrouded in doubt due to the reliability of witnesses.

I feel the opposite. There has been much talk about "dehumanizing" cold-hard reason against the fantasy of religion. Yet, I feel the concept of god makes reality a bit simplistic. Instead of searching for the mysteries in life and uncovering their secrets we can simply fall back on God, who simply explains everything and anything and thus makes logical reasoning pointless. Why feel the mystery and power of nature when you can simply explain it away as some simplistic divine creation?

there was an album title by a band i hate which sums up my feelings on this subject

logic will break your heart








ok.you can start mocking

my two sense ;)

debunkers, athiest, agnostic, or theist do it, in part (the other reasons have been pretty well covered by other posters), because they derive satisfraction from doing something right, and being able to say "this is the best description of pheonomenon X I can possibly come up with."

Atheism is lack of belief in a God, not a lack of belief in a religion. What I mean is, it is possible to have a confirming experience of a God or Gods without accepting a set of beiefs about that experience from outside one's self. That having been said, I would imagine it is very difficult to be an Atheist, since we do not know all there is to know.. yet ... and some things in this life will have to remain a "mystery" for the time being whether we like it or not.

An Atheist or a Theologian can make up any explaination they want, but until the reality of the mystery is apprehended.. they are on equal footing as far as I am concerned.

You seem to be working on the premise that debunkers are all and only atheists.
Had you replaced atheists with scientists the thread would have made more sense.
.

Yes true, but not only that. The assumption is also that all atheists are debunkers. Many atheists do not believe in god and have no interest in debunking mysteries either.

There seems to be a projection that if I / we / they are analytical, truth seeking atheists, then all other atheists must be the same . This is simply not the case.

There are atheists and those with religion who seek to analylitically debunk mysteries. And there are atheists and those with religion who concern themselves only with daily life and do not care at all about mysteries or the truths thereof.

In fact I think the two categories of people for this topic are 1. those who like to put everything in neat boxes, put lables on and stereotype. 2. those that are happy with freeform.

This would also (I think) equate to
1. dogmatists. 2. freethinkers.
1. beuarocrat. 2. radical.
1. logical thinker 2. intuative thinker
1. left brain dominant 2. right brain dominant

I could go on.....


But my point is these types of people are found within and outside of religion and indeed all other walks of life. I would say the 2's are the ones generally more ameniable to having unsolved mysteries and the 1's generally like them solved, or like to have a reason why everything happens.

c20,



Since the atheist thrives on debunking mysteries, is there not a symbiotic relationship between those who love mystery and those who love cold hard facts?

I don't think the concept of 'debuking' applies to mysteries. Debunking is contradicting a claim with real evidence (usually overwhelming). Personally, I like mysteries and cold hard facts. I am not necessarily inclined to solve a mystery or use a fact however.



Would a state of 'no mystery' be utopian to the atheist or would the atheist prefer that there would always be some mystery to solve?


I don't think I've considered the utopian concept enough; however, the presence or absence of mystery would not likely be a factor for it.

I can see your point...many atheists do like to "burst the bubble" for others. but being an atheist myself, i find that it's not so much about disproving religion for others, but about my own personal beliefs. atheism is as much as a personal thing as religion is for theists. my own personal belief (and the beliefs of many ppl i know) is that there's no reason to believe in something that doesn't have significant evidence to prove it. not everyone can have the same spiritual epiphany, and in the end it's really no one else's business but the individual's.

"or would the atheist prefer that there would always be some mystery to solve?"

there will always be mysteries to solve, regardless of whether those who love mysteries exist or not

I'm not atheistic in nature and I enjoy mystery but I seek the truth so I'm not bothered by atheists debunking false so called "mysteries".

C20H25N30: What is C₂₀H₂₅N₃₀? Is there such a molecule?

You seem to know some militant atheists. I and most of the athesits I know are low keyed on the subject. In the absence of some debate on abortion, Intelligent Design, or certain other issues, few people are aware that I am an atheist, although I never hestitate to mention it if the subject comes up.

I do not initiate debates on the existence of god and/or relgious beliefs, although I often get roped in and sometimes take part in an existing debate.

BTW: IMO I and most atheists I know seem to behave according to and believe in a better set of ethics than those of many religious people I know. I try to avoid lying, stealing, putting people, injuring people, making unfair deals, et cetera (and am generally successful in avoiding such behavior).

C20H25N30: What is C₂₀H₂₅N₃₀? Is there such a molecule?

C₂₀H₂₅N₃O

not N₃₀ ;)


You seem to know some militant atheists.

Only through this board really. Although everyone seems a little more moderate these days, not in their own opinions, but in the way they express them.

peace

c20

C₂₀H₂₅N₃O: I only remember some principles and basic concepts from my long long ago chemistry courses. Details such as the formuale for various compounds are no longer retrievable.

What is that molecule? Is there such a molecule?

So I do a little research for the dino.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Lsd-structure.png

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/images/archive/lsd_3d.jpg

My understanding is that you're looking at the chemical structure of LSD.

I'm unsure as to the credibility of the information here: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_chemistry.shtml

So I do a little research for the dino.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Lsd-structure.png

My understanding is that you're looking at the chemical structure of LSD.

And more interesting tryptamines (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml#index)

Dont cook these up at home :)

"or would the atheist prefer that there would always be some mystery to solve?"

there will always be mysteries to solve, regardless of whether those who love mysteries exist or not

There's no epitomy of Atheist; every Atheist is different. As far as I know, Atheism isn't an organized religion yet, and everyone has different reasons to be Atheist. Some Atheists like to debunk religious people, others, like myself, like to sleep and go on with life.

So there.

Does mystery make some Atheists hyper? Yeah, some.

I'm unsure as to the credibility of the information here: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_chemistry.shtml

It's spot on.

Everyone is driven by their abstraction of survival. Like gukarma said, there is no singular driving force for athiests. It's whatever they come to percieve or habituate as "how to live".

No, because atheists know there's no such thing as a utopian society, for that's a fantasy world created by those who want to believe in fantasies.


cosmic no a utopia is actually possible and thats a fact, due to humans ability to with training and effort be totally peacefull, if you say peace is impossible could you actually give reasons as to why its actually IMPOSSIBLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE to achieve a peacefull society and give evidence to support this claim please, thinking you can understand everything is stupid there will always be mystery for aslong as there is existance,

I am an atheist and I like that somethings are unknown. Life would be boaring if there was no mystery