Egyptian court bans Jewish pilgrims at tomb of Abu Hatzeira; claims `violations of Islam'

By Reuters


CAIRO - An Egyptian court has banned a controversial Jewish festival, saying pilgrims engage in rituals endangering public morals, court sources said yesterday. The ruling was issued in the north coast city of Alexandria on Wednesday after a lawyer took legal action against the Culture Ministry, which is responsible for the site where the annual gathering takes place in late December and early January.

The state-owned al-Ahram newspaper quoted a court report saying the pilgrims "drink alcohol, dress up, commit sinful acts and behave in a way that contradicts Islamic traditions and public morals."

According to Mustafa Raslan, a lawyer who led a campaign to ban the festival: "This ruling should have been issued a long time ago. It reflected what the people feel."

In past years, thousands of Jews have visited the tomb of Abuhatzeira, a 19th century Moroccan Jewish holy man who died in the village of Demito near Damanhour, some 50 kilometers southeast of Alexandria. Only a few worshippers made the journey to the Nile Delta village last January, however, and did not stay for the traditional eight days. Sources cited security reasons for Egypt's refusal to grant visas to Jews who had planned to come from Israel.

An Israeli Embassy spokeswoman has, meanwhile, criticized the court's decision. "We expect whatever authority has responsibility for the place to guarantee that the yearly festivities take place. There should be freedom of access for Jews for this place," she said.

A Culture Ministry spokesman said no decision had been made about whether to appeal the verdict. Anti- Israel sentiment has risen in Egypt during the last 11 months of fighting between Israel and Palestinians seeking to end Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Raslan questioned the validity of the festival, saying local Muslims considered Abuhatzeira a Muslim and that pilgrimage to the site began only after Egypt and Israel made peace in 1979. "Jews didn't hold a festival at this site when they were in Egypt. It's just after the normalization [between Egypt and Israel]," he said.

Most of Egypt's Jewish community left the country after the State of Israel was founded in 1948 and a 1952 military coup in Egypt ushered in pan-Arab nationalist rule.


<h4> amazing that only in arabic and islamic nations it is against the law to act and behave in manners that are against the religion of the majority in that nation</h4>
{* besides australia i heard they banned saintology there due to some money frauds?!? is it true?}

Israel is racist? what if Israel decided to close the mount to muslems ?
no wonder that even israeli arabs live under better conditions and have more human rights than most arabs in the arabic and islamic nations.
go ask an Israeli arab where would he rather be living if he had the chance in Israel,jordan,egypt,syria,lebanon
i wonder why he will answer Israel.

and the odd thing is that egypt kills by law hundreds of fanatic muslems every year.
and there are some islamic movements that are illegal and banned in egypt

Thanks for posting that article, Radical. Most people in this forum are misinformed, they dont understand the culture because they are secluded from it. Stories like that would probably not be posted in the west for various political and social reasons. Hopefully, though, they may one day see it from a different and more accurate perspective.

And and you only have to look at that saying asking where the arabs would want to live, to understand how the culture and so called 'politics' are run.

Hey guys, I think suppressive would be a better word to use than racist. Its not really a racist ragime per sé. If an arab went and lived in Egypt they wouldn't be treated lower because of their race. But would be suppressed because of the current regime. Whereas, I would think that Israel would be a much freer country to live in.

According to Mustafa Raslan, a lawyer who led a campaign to ban the festival: "This ruling should have been issued a long time ago. It reflected what the people feel."

Some in USA will agree with Mustafa Raslan. They will say that it is their feeling to get rid of Mustafa and the group.

Could they be right under EGYPT law? :confused:

Stories like that would probably not be posted in the west for various political and social reasons

yes they are
USA is making a big fuss about the 52 gays that are gonna face trial in egypt .
always USA and the rest condems it when egypt breaks human rights(not a day passes without egypt moderating a news-paper,arresting reporters that speak what they.


Some in USA will agree with Mustafa Raslan. They will say that it is their feeling to get rid of Mustafa and the group.


Mohamad married a 9 year old girl while he was over 50 .
you forget from what sort of tribal and such enviroment they come from.

only the other week an 11 year old boy in saudi arabia married a 14 year old cause her father had a huge debt to the boy's father
the amazing thing is that it is legal since it does not contradict the laws of islam


I think suppressive would be a better word to use than racist. Its not really a racist ragime per sé. If an arab went and lived in Egypt they wouldn't be treated lower because of their race. But would be suppressed because of the current regime
arabs in egypt do see jews as a race.
arabs even see that they(the arabs) are a race altough arabic nations are consisted out of a zilion races.
in leb they are phoniceians(or something like that) and so on.

"Saudi Arabia is racist and is against any other religion other than islam"

I tried telling that to Tiassa, but he says that I don't know what Im talking about,

because Egypt is an important ally of the US it's not facing much pressure from it.... and receives over 2B in aid

it's still an incredibly messed up country, almost as bad as saudi arabia

Some say:

For thousands of years they kept crying to God to help them. So, God got tired of hearing that and put oil there so that they can live peacefully among the rest of the world. If they continue this S***, they might find the oil disappear and move elsewhere with a few simple God created Earthquakes. One has already happened in IRAN. More coming. Remember God does not work in human time. But it is coming in the next 30 years. Karma is very powerful.

One would allmost forgive Sharon his politics considering how crappy many of the surrounding arab countries are...

Still it could be much worse without Mubarak who has more burning desire for dollarbills than the jihad.

Sometime one wonders if Israelis are not birds of the same feather...otherwise, they could have easily solved their problem...long time ago.

"Saudi Arabia is racist and is against any other religion other than islam"

I tried telling that to Tiassa, but he says that I don't know what Im talking about,

they are against islam too, are they still racist?

yes they are

Mohamad married a 9 year old girl while he was over 50 .
you forget from what sort of tribal and such enviroment they come from.

only the other week an 11 year old boy in saudi arabia married a 14 year old cause her father had a huge debt to the boy's father
the amazing thing is that it is legal since it does not contradict the laws of islam
\.


Oh great!! Another vienna. take it to religious thread and we will talk. You have no knowledge about any religion. So why dont I educate you. Start a thread with your fantasy and we will talk.

WHY THIS HYPOCRISY ?? IF EVEN THE JEWS THEMSELVES BAN JEWISH WOMEN FROM EVEN RAISING THEIR VOICES AT THE WAILLING WALL , WHY YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT EGYPT ???

Jewish women fight holy war

Feminists demand the right to pray aloud at Jerusalem's Wailing Wall, despite the threat of jail and attacks by Orthodox men

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1116048,00.html

It is not important they are not muslim. As long as you have that label (muslim ) you can be guilty of any thing in the world and rest can walk away with the same issue.

I tried telling that to Tiassa, but he says that I don't know what Im talking about,Oh, do expand. This isn't because you're bitter about the fact that you and Osama bin Laden have something in common, is it?

Feminists demand the right to pray aloud at Jerusalem's Wailing Wall, despite the threat of jail and attacks by Orthodox men
are you out of your mind?
..um... a stupid question, i suppose.

1) the guardian has like 10% credibility
2) you've mentioned it already more than once, and were explained more than once about the nonsense of the allegations (or their severity)
3) even if the allegations, as you put them, are true, that does not make the islamist shit ok. it has no relevance what so ever

oh ghassan , where are you ....

oh ghassan , where are you ....
Why???

Whats he gonna do??? LOL! :D




they are against islam too, are they still racist?

What is it with you 567? You are following me around like some lost puppy, ah well.

Your answer is below - dummy.



"Saudi Arabia is racist and is against any other religion other than islam"

I tried telling that to Tiassa, but he says that I don't know what Im talking about,

Oh, do expand. This isn't because you're bitter about the fact that you and Osama bin Laden have something in common, is it?

OK Tiassa Just for you - and that lost puppy 567...............

A Report on Freedom of Religion in Saudi Arabia

Freedom of religion does not exist. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The Government prohibits the practice of other religions. There are isolated reports of harassment and arrest of foreign workers conducting clandestine worship services, particularly around non-Muslim religious holidays. One Christian worship service was broken up by police and Mutawwa'in, and the man who hosted the service was punished by lashing.

Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is considered apostasy. Public apostasy is a crime under Shari'a law and punishable by death.

Islamic practice is generally limited to that of the Wahhabi sect's interpretation of the Hanbali School of the Sunni branch of Islam. Practices contrary to this interpretation, such as visits to the graves of renowned Muslims, are discouraged.

The Ministry of Islamic Affairs directly supervises and is a major source of funds for the construction and maintenance of almost all mosques in the country. The Ministry pays the salaries of all imams and others who work in the mosques. A governmental committee is responsible for defining the qualifications of imams. The religious police, or the Mutawwa'in, receive their funding from the Government and the general president of the Mutawwa'in holds the rank of minister.

The Shi'a Muslim minority (roughly 500,000 of over 13 million citizens) lives mostly in the eastern province. They are the objects of officially sanctioned social and economic discrimination (see Section 5). Prior to 1990, the Government prohibited Shi'ite public processions during the Islamic month of Muharram and restricted other processions and congregations to designated areas in the major Shi'ite cities. Since 1990, the authorities have permitted marches on the Shi'a holiday of Ashura, provided the marchers do not display banners or engage in self-flagellation. In May Ashura commemorations in the eastern province passed without incident.

The Government seldom permits private construction of Shi'ite mosques. The Shi'a have declined government offers to build state-supported mosques because Shi'ite motifs would be prohibited in them.

The Government does not permit public or private non-Muslim religious activities. Persons wearing religious symbols of any kind in public risk confrontation with the Mutawwa'in. The general prohibition against religious symbols applies also to Muslims. A Muslim wearing a Koranic necklace in public would be admonished. Non- Muslim worshippers risk arrest, lashing, and deportation for engaging in any religious activity that attracts official attention.

Excerpted from Human Rights Practices in Saudi Arabia, 1996

.....And muslims have the nerve to complain about France, it is high time they sorted their own backyard first.

A Report on Freedom of Religion in Saudi ArabiaAnd?

Oh ...
.....And muslims have the nerve to complain about France, it is high time they sorted their own backyard first.Is this a condition exclusive to Muslims? That would be news.

In the meantime, oh heaven save us from the gawdawful Muslims. They're so ... human.

A response to the topic post:
The state-owned al-Ahram newspaper quoted a court report saying the pilgrims "drink alcohol, dress up, commit sinful acts and behave in a way that contradicts Islamic traditions and public morals." Well ... that's not so unique. Just ask American Christians: http://www.theroc.org/updates/manson.htm
• Feb 5: Oklahoma City, OK - privately owned State Fairgrounds: "Oklahomans for Families and Children" (AFA front group) asked for cancellation. Gov. Frank Keating announces his support of a cancellation saying that, "these people are peddling garbage. It's further proof that society's moral values continue to crumble."

• April 12: Biloxi, MS - State Senator Ron Farris writes to promoter asking that groups with "counter-cultural and/or radical messages" refrain from bringing their "spectacles" to Mississippi. Protest of this show brought about the local American Family Association (AFA) setting up an entire web site on the internet with information on how to organize protest against Marilyn Manson.

• April 29: Fort Wayne,IN - Religious protesters issue a statement that they have the power to "bind" evil spirits (meaning they can tie them down, restrict them, slow them down). They publish on the internet a prayer which should "bind" the demons at the upcoming Ft. Wayne Marilyn Manson show. The statement says in part: "It is not yet a general attack on Marilyn Manson or his demons. Instead, it is a demonstration surgical strike against this concert."

• May 10: Richmond VA - city owned venue: This concert was canceled by City Manager Robert Bobb. "Satan worship and animalistic type of programming is not consistant with the image we're building for our community." said Bobb. This concert was reinstated after the Virginia ACLU announced their intention to sue the city. City Manager Bobb is now asking the city to institute a "ratings system" for future concerts.

Note: All dates are from 1997 tour; see TheRoc.org (http://www.theroc.org/updates/manson.htm) for source.

A response to the topic post: Well ... that's not so unique. Just ask American Christians: http://www.theroc.org/updates/manson.htm

And not a single Christian suicide bomb in sight, really violent people those American Christians of yours Tiassa.

:D

And not a single Christian suicide bomb in sight, really violent people those American Christians of yours Tiassa.Yes, yes. Clever mixing of issues, Vienna. Keep trying. You'll get a clue someday.

:cool:

Trying to muddle the issue by citing instances where Christians have attempted to stifle obscenity is hardly akin to rationalizing killing those that would kill the infidels that disagree with their POV. I would hope that no man of a rational mind would equate the two.

I think it's relevant, 15ofthe19, insofar as a member of a culture who has benefitted from similar wrongs in history should be complaining about similar traits in others without some reflection on the similarities, differences, and motivations.

Also, I see the specific issue of killing people introduced from other places; it's not part of the topic article. Radical notes, in the topic post:
and the odd thing is that egypt kills by law hundreds of fanatic muslems every year.
and there are some islamic movements that are illegal and banned in egyptNow, I'm not even going to stop and nitpick the use of the word "racist," which I acknowledge through extended context when it is brought up in reference to anti-Islamic sentiments being "racist". But Egypt--an oppressor--seems to be an equal-opportunity oppressor. This notion undermines the topic title as I read it, though that's a highly subjective notion in and of itself.

Tell me, anyone ... are those who would protest a Marilyn Manson concert and those who would, say, shoot abortion doctors or bomb medical clinics or federal buildings one and the same, or are they separate?

I just think that tying in suicide bombers is a lot like invoking David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, Paul Hill, or Eric Rudolph to paint the whole of Christianity or America is tenuous at best. How about Freddie Phelps (http://www.godhatesfags.com/)?

Is his Christianity the same as George W. Bush's? How about Bishop Robinson?

This is why I chose the text I did to respond to. And why I responded as I did. Suicide bombers aren't necessarily the same issue. It only is if we wish to paint with a very broad "they" brush. And at that level, the complaint is moot, because "we" are just as nasty.

So if we're to flee from one "they" to another, we must be sure that "they" are the same folks.

We want to talk about suicide bombers? Let's talk about suicide bombers. Americans support their government; does that mean we all think Bush is great? Should Americans be painted as slobbering, undereducated militiamen rushing to war because its too much of a pain in the ass to kill doctors? Surely not.

To do so would be far too elitist, far too presumptive, and dangerously unsubstantiated.

I mean, fair's fair, right? Or is a new, unequal justice part of the New World Order?

I think it is a question of scale. For every Eric Rudolph you can cite, I can cite literally hundreds, if not thousands of equivalents. To try and compare the tiny fringe minority of Christians that would blow things up in the name of their cause to the hundreds of thousands of militant Muslims that do likewise in the name of their cause is pure horseshit. There is no comparing the two, with regards to numbers of willing participants. That is undeniable.

If you want to talk motives, fine. But don't try to equate one lunatic fringe to the other, in terms of size.

WHY THIS HYPOCRISY ?? IF EVEN THE JEWS THEMSELVES BAN JEWISH WOMEN FROM EVEN RAISING THEIR VOICES AT THE WAILLING WALL , WHY YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT EGYPT ???

Jewish women fight holy war

Feminists demand the right to pray aloud at Jerusalem's Wailing Wall, despite the threat of jail and attacks by Orthodox men

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1116048,00.htmlI'll agree both are wrong. What is your view on the posted comment regarding Egypt?

For every Eric Rudolph you can cite, I can cite literally hundreds, if not thousands of equivalentsWhat happens if we throw in every gangsta with a gun from the 1980s who also wore gold crosses and believed in God?
There is no comparing the two, with regards to numbers of willing participants. That is undeniable.Well, one of our Muslim friends who really dislikes this example isn't around, so I'll haul it out

• Start with the simple idea that "Islam is 600 years younger than Xnty."
•*600 years ago, Chrisitanity was not a very nice or civilized place.
• While the histories of Christian and Muslim empires follow different paths, we might choose to look at the Christian (Western) result.

What changed? What the hell happened that chased so much of the bloodthirsty superstition out of the Western experience?

There are, in fact, a couple of answers that suggest themselves.

At the political, "worldview" level, we in the West aren't much more civilized unless we define civility according to the degree of sublimation of the sins of the body politic. We in the West might complain about those carrying out the savagery, but we seem to turn a blind eye to the Westerners who help make it happen and fan the fires.

But at a level at once personal (individual) and superficial, that "superior civility" is immeidately apparent in the West.

Why? Is our Western monotheism that much better than Arabic monotheism? No, not really.

Quite simply, we found something more important to us than God. Money has become the sacred and defining principle. (WTO: Property damage isn't enough, invent some "lost revenues" numbers. Anti-Communism: The idea of comfort isn't problematic; the idea of trusting someone to administrate your finances--the fruits of your labors--is. Roger Waters: "By the grace of God almighty, and the pressures of the marketplace, the human race has civilized itself. It's a miracle.")

And we can argue whether it was the fall empires, the rise of the UN, or Jewish conspiracies of world dominion until the cows come home, but the question will still remain: Why in the West and not the Arab world?

Geography, resources, climate--these are all subtly important factors. But in the West, the formerly reviled practice of banking (e.g. raising wealth without producing anything, skimming the flow, &c) became popular. Money became more important than God. I've known Christians who quote the Didache as canonical gospel when it comes to denying alms or charity. Apocrypha and even heresies abound in order to license greed. And the produce of much of that greed has been undeniably sweet (as I type into an iMac).

What is the difference in social development? Is it solely religious paradigm, as many would have us accept? Nothing is sacred in America; this has long been recognized by my generation. This is part of how we amass tremendous wealth as a nation, but it's also why we're so damn soulless about it.

As soon as Muslims are offered a viable and understandable route to closer integration with the Western sociopolitical structure, they'll take it. But in the end, it's a question of jihad or apostasy, and whether or not the West can sell the marvelous benefits of apostasy. It's sort of like Bill Maher used to say of Republicans: "I would love to be a Republican, if only they would."

So to me, when I look at the violent parts of the Islamic world, I think of it much like I think of our American troubled and gang-ridden neighborhoods: What can society offer that is more attractive than pimping, dealing, and capping?

What sort of luxuries supported my own middle-class, mundane existence? Would Johnny Gangbanger have made the decisions he made if he had similar opportunities? It's not particularly hard for me to extend that question to Islam. Where some people are looking to win or lose, the question to me is how we can get the Muslims onboard. And yes, I have considered the opposite flow, but consider it impossible according to the foundations of the working paradigm. I'm trying to find a way around it, just to be fair to some, but I don't expect to be advocating that the US transform itself into Arabia anytime soon.

The simple reality is that, despite our successes, despite our institutions, despite our accomplishments, many Muslims are wary of the West because of what they perceive as unacceptable sacrifices.

If the community can obtain justice, they're in. But short of that, they're going to struggle through it like everybody else.

So for us in America, the most easily understood expression of the issue is: How do we convince Muslims that money is more important than God, nation, or family?

Once they're convinced, they'll all be rushing to improve their lives to match our grand fortune.

(Coloring my response is the ever-present cynicism suggesting that the closer we get to complete justice, the more likely the system is to collapse, as the seeming paramount of human social evolution--e.g. America & Western socioeconomy--depends on preserving a broad degree of injustice.)
If you want to talk motives, fine. But don't try to equate one lunatic fringe to the other, in terms of size.I won't compare our multibillion-dollar, fundamentalist, televangelism industry to the Egyptian Islamic Jihad in terms of size. I promise.

But just as you wouldn't want me confusing you with movements of differing sizes, I would ask that people stop trying to confuse the issue by leaping from cultural prohibitions to state executions and suicide bombings.

I hear you, 15ofthe19. I just look at the situation more broadly. You advise me thus, but I would go so far as to say that I'm entertaining within the confines of the topic as established by other people.

Maybe I should connect the Point A of Radical's topic post to the Point B of Vienna's crack about suicide bombers and maybe we could have a repeat of the Miller conflagration? You know, I get all offended at the degree of gross and irresponsible and hateful generalization in Vienna's stance in relation to the topic at hand, you get all upset at me for being so rude to Vienna, and then we can argue for weeks without ever coming around to ask what suicide bombers have to do with the news story which forms the basis of the topic post.

I invite anyone to take a look at what part of my post is debated here: "A response to the topic post," which quoted the portion of text intended for response and responded in context.

Vienna responds by extending an issue of whether or not an event is going to be allowed to cover suicide bombers, and now you wish to advise me that I am inappropriately digressing by responding to the topic post?

• "If you want to talk motives, fine. But don't try to equate one lunatic fringe to the other, in terms of size."

I mean, help me out here. It would appear to me that you're telling me I'm inappropriate for responding to the topic article and not exaggerating the issue to include, say, Hamas.

No, I don't think you are exaggerating the issue at all. I think that you and I can see eye to eye on this issue, but I think that if you are wishing to simplify this issue into a Christianity versus Islam issue, you are missing the entire point. There is no point in going tit for tat right now. There is one religion that is being openly bastardized by millions of people, in many different lands, and that religion is Islam, not Christianity. I am not a Christian, but I was raised in that religious tradition, and I understand it very well. There simply is no comparing what a few have done to Christianity versus what many have done to Islam. I don't have to apologize for this. This was not my fault. But facts are facts, and Islam has been pimped out and perverted in the name of politics to justify and give license to indiscriminate killing. This is not the first time that murderers have pimped out the religion, and I dount it will be the last.

There will be no peace until the true of faith rise up against the pimps and put them down. Until then we will see murder justified by perversion of religion.

Oh crap, I almost forgot.

WE ARE NOT MONO-THEISTIC.

Once a Western Christian understands this fact, it becomes easier to understand why many Muslims have such a problem with Christianity.

[font=trebuchet ms]What changed? What the hell happened that chased so much of the bloodthirsty superstition out of the Western experience?
...
But at a level at once personal (individual) and superficial, that "superior civility" is immeidately apparent in the West.

..

Quite simply, we found something more important to us than God. Money
1) Japan is wealthy and yet they have a tight nit family unit.
2) America in the 1950’s? Plenty of wealth and not so much crime and I’d say still quite religious.
3) How about Russia in the 1980s (similar to the ME) Russia was/is quite poor BUT non-religious and also non-fanatical.
4) Singapore or Korea, I think they have some wealth but not the same civil problems as the States and quite tight nit families with safe cherished societies (Singapore’s the safest country in the world)
5) China – again, poor and atheist but not fanatical.

AND my personal favorite - Tibet – really poor, very religious, presently occupied by the red-army and yet not even close to the religious fanaticism one will find in Iran which has money, isn’t occupied, but is also religious.

I think there is much more to it than Money. Money is just an easy method of counting beans and tends to represent the number of hours of work one puts in. I don’t think we can easily boil it down to money.

Maybe the reason why the States is doing better than the ME socially is due to the fact that Jefferson didn’t buy into the god-crap and thankfully separated church and state that combined with democracy and inalienable rights plus the world’s largest farmable land the largest fresh water reserve access to two oceans fisheries, oil, energy, land, and you have the makings for a cushy civil society. Only an absolute idiot (like Bush) could mess it up. In the ME you have major ethnic (imaginary or otherwise) rivalry, sates being run by despots, religious authority trying to govern civil matters, paternal rule, and god only knows the sun has got to be a killer! Even with money Arabia makes no effort to fix itself up and become sustainable. I’d tend to think it’s a cultural thing more than a money thing. They’ve been fighting one another in the ME long before Islam was concocted and they’ll be fighting long after it’s went the way of the dodo. Their society is intimately linked to their culture and they have no desire to change it to be like the West. Hell they probably think its more civil. I mean could you imagine living in a place where a woman can tell a man what to do? Crazy I tells ya! :)

but I think that if you are wishing to simplify this issue into a Christianity versus Islam issue, you are missing the entire point It's hardly that.

You have a very good point that it's going tit for tat; it's sort of my "I'm not stating it because it's obvious" roundabout point. Largely, I think that inasmuch as Egypt has certain religious-political and sociopolitical problems, the example in the topic post is comparatively weak.

In your initial response to me, you wrote, "Trying to muddle the issue by citing instances where Christians have attempted to stifle obscenity is hardly akin to rationalizing killing those that would kill the infidels that disagree with their POV." Well ... yeah. But whence comes the killing and dying in this topic? The topic article is about a rather stupid prohibition of what my general opinion of the Abramic experience in its entirety would presume to be a rather silly festival.

Beyond that, the topic prompt one of my infamously long examinations of issues that people already don't care about despite their relevance.

Again, accounting for the liberalized use of the word racist, the first invocation of killing and dying--in the topic post--undermines the title assertion inasmuch as it would represent a thesis of sorts. In its particular context, I think there's definitely a discussion to be had about the Egyptian government's persecution of people in general, but by the time we get to the difference between the Marilyn Manson opposition (comparable in magnitude to the topic post) and suicide bombers (a bit of a leap, something of an exaggeration), whence comes the killing and dying? It is invoked in response to my consideration of the topic post.

That's actually the only point on which I'm disagreeing with you with any intent.

If we consider your posts--
• Trying to muddle the issue by citing instances where Christians have attempted to stifle obscenity is hardly akin to rationalizing killing those that would kill the infidels that disagree with their POV. I would hope that no man of a rational mind would equate the two.

• I think it is a question of scale. For every Eric Rudolph you can cite, I can cite literally hundreds, if not thousands of equivalents. To try and compare the tiny fringe minority of Christians that would blow things up in the name of their cause to the hundreds of thousands of militant Muslims that do likewise in the name of their cause is pure horseshit. There is no comparing the two, with regards to numbers of willing participants. That is undeniable.

If you want to talk motives, fine. But don't try to equate one lunatic fringe to the other, in terms of size. --I have two questions.

(1) Am I incorrect in responding to the "Trying to muddle the issue" post? Experience at Sciforums teaches me to never rule out that possibility; and so I ask.

(2) Presuming the answer to #1 is "No," why are you addressing me on this issue?

As they stand, I don't disagree with the basic premise of either post, but in the context of this topic and the posts which lead to it, I'm very confused about why you choose to address me on this particular issue.

(Removed: More words than I care to explain, except to say that aside from the above, there's not a whole lot in your posts I care to argue with; I found myself arguing points with you that we actually agree on, but only because I am unclear about the implications of the above portion.)

A Note on Monotheism:

Yes. True. In the meantime, I'm accustomed to two separate discussions; e.g. whichever one I'm having in which it's advisable to not nitpick the montheism issue, or one of theology concerning that issue specifically. For some reason the Abramists consider themselves monotheists, and to hear some historians tell it, quite revolutionary in exactly the sense you're alluding to. No, it doesn't make sense, but some atheists believe in ghosts, so ... at that degree it's all in whether you choose to rope it into a religion or not.

And?

Oh ... Is this a condition exclusive to Muslims? That would be news.
No....but it's a condition muslims demand from the west, while their countries deny these rights to other faiths such as Christians and Jews. Surely you understand my point or are you deliberately taking the piss.


In the meantime, oh heaven save us from the gawdawful Muslims. They're so ... human.
Human yes - civilised no.

It is not important they are not muslim. As long as you have that label (muslim ) you can be guilty of any thing in the world and rest can walk away with the same issue.

EXACTLY !! EVERY PROBLEM IN THE WORLD CAN BE BLAMED ON ISLAM FROM LOSING CONNECTION WITH MARS SHUTTLE TO JANET JACKSON REVEALING HER BREATS !!

:D

I'll agree both are wrong. What is your view on the posted comment regarding Egypt?

There is so much propaganda going around here...Egypt has NO ISLAMIC government, their government is secular anti muslim...WHY THOSE PATHETICS DONT TALK ABOUT THE THOUSANDS OF MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD MEMBERS ROTTING IN EGYPTIAN JAILS ????????

:mad:

No....but it's a condition muslims demand from the west, while their countries deny these rights to other faiths such as Christians and Jews. Surely you understand my point or are you deliberately taking the piss.The point stands in the abstract. In the practical, however, it's useless.
Human yes - civilised no.Whatever. Muslims and Hindus both were 35 years late to the brinkmanship game.

Civilized is a relative condition.

We in the, uh, civilized West, Vienna, civilize ourselves as such only as a luxury provided by a most barbaric history. We are in a position to help other social organizations--other nations--make similar progress without so much bloodshed.

However, that brand of civility is too expensive--specifically, it cuts profit margins too much.

Moving from drawing and quartering to burning at the stake to guillotine and gallows and firing squad and electric chair. Lethal injection? Very civilized, but it's still homicide.

It's all a matter of priorities.

And since I, as an American, benefit directly from the lack of civility that makes the headlines in the Middle East, I also ought to calculate the costs.

Like 9/11. Am I pissed? Of course. Am I surprised? Hell, no. Why not? Because even in suits and ties, Americans are barbaric.

Nepal ... that's not a very civilized war. Excuse me, "insurgency." I think back to the conservatives I knew who defended child labor practices abroad--including Nepal. What was that? Oh, the children should be thankful for the opportunity to support their family? Why aren't they in school? Oh, so they can support their family. Why aren't the parents paid enough to do that? Oh, I see. Our American standard of living would decline. Now, is that the standard of living that comes with the two houses, five boats, five cars, four personal computers, and a trip to South America? Yeah. Those kids are just about the age to pick up rifles and fight back. Gee, nobody saw this coming, did they? Everything was so ... civilized ... before.

The larger point being that whoopee, there's a lack of civility in the Muslim world. There's a lack of civility in the United States. There's a lack of civility in France. There's a lack of civility in Iraq, in Rwanda, in DRC, in Uganda, in Chechnya, in Nepal--the list goes on. Apparently, Equatorial Guinea is the happiest place on earth; after all, their leader is God.

The historical seeds which lead us to the lack of civility in the Middle East germinated in the West. Transplanted, raised, harvested, they were then set to burn all over the globe, and we're still putting out the residual fires. Metaphorically speaking, the firefighters are so poorly trained or intended that they "control burn" without a plan or any respect for what they are doing. That it's particularly hot and smoky in one part of the world is apparently a necessity to those who are complaining most loudly about the pollution.

Look into the wages paid some sulfur miners around the world. Then go look at the price of processed sugar.

The world economic system--a convention consented to by all who participate in it--depends on poverty. No, it's not the reason why there's so many poor people in the world, but it is the reason why there will continue to be.

And sometimes that dependence causes problems. That those problems include the Arab world is less the fault of Muslims than 9/11 is the fault of the United States of America.

scientology isn't a religion its a scam... anything that involves relenquishing all your positions to the grand leader and supporting the cause of getting to the galaxy of norkon-5 is not a religion in my view.

Why???



What is it with you 567? You are following me around like some lost puppy, ah well.

Your answer is below - dummy.

.

first reply was deleted due to ethical reasons by our moderator. Yes I follow you........and want to marry you and call you my *itch, since I am a puppy. haha ( IS that ok Goofyfish ) You are too lovely to follow around.

I never said Saudia arabai got freeodom of relgiion and If I have please show me where?

No....but it's a condition muslims demand from the west, while their countries deny these rights to other faiths such as Christians and Jews. Surely you understand my point or are you deliberately taking the piss.


Human yes - civilised no.


Hardly few countries do such a thing, ah yesterday I saw the pic of Iranians sitting with Jewsih Rabbais in a big iranian jews gathering.... did you miss it?

I will post it for you. There are plenty of christians in arab countries, i bet you never heard about. Opps didn't mean to tell you that there is world out side your house. :D

Hardly few countries do such a thing, ah yesterday I saw the pic of Iranians sitting with Jewsih Rabbais in a big iranian jews gathering.... did you miss it?
Yes I did, but Iranians have to be very careful with regard to the faith in their country - no free speech in Iran y'know. Be careful what you do - and say in Iran.


I will post it for you. There are plenty of christians in arab countries, i bet you never heard about.
I know - persecuted Christians.


Opps didn't mean to tell you that there is world out side your house. :D
LOL! :D You're OK - you follow me anywhere you want. I can be a real *itch too :D .

There is so much propaganda going around here...Egypt has NO ISLAMIC government, their government is secular anti muslim...WHY THOSE PATHETICS DONT TALK ABOUT THE THOUSANDS OF MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD MEMBERS ROTTING IN EGYPTIAN JAILS ????????

:mad:

a country who puts you in jail for "offending the prophet" is not islamic?
such crimes include homosexuality, belonging to a christian organization, etc.
by the way, as i'm sure you know, Muslim Brotherhood is a banned extremist terrorist organization. not because it's muslim but because of its "militancy"

The members of the Muslim Brotherhood are in jail for being criminals, not for being Muslim. When you plot to kill tourists at Luxor, what are you? A hero?

speaking about muslims and mixing issues, let's not forget the struggle of many palestines is motivated by secular issues, like land, water and food.

While I am deeply offended by the metrobombing and I do have some serious problems with the IMO somewhat repressive nature of islam and the way it is enforced, I think some people here are cheering/applauding too hard when west-europeans make the headscarf (and Keppels, but nobody, including the jews seem to care) prohibited on public schools.

You really think that posting bad smell about muslims = arabs <--- palestines (who not seem to exist anyway) in general makes israeli turds smell better ?

Maybe a crusader like Bush is sensitive for that (imaginary WMD and all) , but most west europeans are not exactly waiting to get dragged into this conflict.

And yes , when the jihad reaches holland I would probably pick up the crusader sword and fight alongside with the jews (because (in my perception) admittedly jewish culture leaves me as infidel more room than islam and christian culture mixes better with jewish culture than with islam) but really, is this all necessary ?

And yes , when the jihad reaches holland I would probably pick up the crusader sword and fight alongside with the jews (because admittedly jewish and christian culture mix better than with islam) but really, is this all necessary ?


You just made a serious mistake. Jews were slaughterd by crusaders and no not by muslims but christians. So it sound really weird using jews and cursade and along side all togather are not correct. Europe already hate them anyways, if it will be a crusade, you will kick/kill them all out, muslims or jews they dont matter to them/you or your crusader sword.

It has already reached Holland.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6485

I am so Brilliant, I even make my misstakes on purpose :D

Crusaders:

That's what I mean by applauding cheering too loud, before you know it you have totalitarian regimes that not only turn against those "damn muslims" but against others also and turns against the values of freedom and respect that we say held so dear (Bush was already a few steps on this path, but it looks like the american public has come to it's senses)

It has already reached Holland.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6485

Bad article. ^
How can the guy speak in those terms of Holland?

France, the sharia law? :o
After they even forbid the Islamic scarf?
such rubbish. he must be from the extreme right wing.
Many muslim countries do not even apply the sharia law.

There is so much propaganda going around here...Egypt has NO ISLAMIC government, their government is secular anti muslim...WHY THOSE PATHETICS DONT TALK ABOUT THE THOUSANDS OF MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD MEMBERS ROTTING IN EGYPTIAN JAILS ????????

:mad:I agree.

But, regarding the post:


CAIRO - An Egyptian court has banned a controversial Jewish festival, saying pilgrims engage in rituals endangering public morals, court sources said yesterday. The ruling was issued in the north coast city of Alexandria on Wednesday after a lawyer took legal action against the Culture Ministry, which is responsible for the site where the annual gathering takes place in late December and early January.

The state-owned al-Ahram newspaper quoted a court report saying the pilgrims "drink alcohol, dress up, commit sinful acts and behave in a way that contradicts Islamic traditions and public morals."

According to Mustafa Raslan, a lawyer who led a campaign to ban the festival: "This ruling should have been issued a long time ago. It reflected what the people feel."
http://www.sciforums.com/archive/index.php/t-3851

Everything else aside and just focusing on this, What do you think about this inparticular?

I agree.

But, regarding the post:

Everything else aside and just focusing on this, What do you think about this inparticular?


Michael, I think the above is not a good move at all. But you have to understand that the huge ammount of hate rooted in the general public's minds. They hate jews and jews hate them back. Anything against jews can get passed easily in a very Un Islamic Egypt.Same can happen in Israel and might have happened and there are other ocassions where things like above can happen. Egypt is by far from a Islamic country same goes for Turkey and many other Arab nations. They have lost the concept and teachings of Islam and Concept of democracy and we as an Americans are supporting their regimes to full fill our own dirty desires.

What I like to say now is for every one who thinks that By banning Head Scarf they can curb Islam or militant Islam. First of all Scarf is for the girls were not going wage some holy war by wearing a Hijab. ( Israel/circumstances are different). Second, what was seen as a sign of oppression till today, Now it will become a sign of Freedom for Mulism youths. Bad move! if you ask me. They just don't get it.

This is the most strangest way to curb militancy I have ever seen. Targted towards girls only.

Just a question for people who live in france and other european countries, are they women allowed to work in public and goverment places wearing head scarf? or is it not legal?

Just a question for people who live in france and other european countries, are they women allowed to work in public and goverment places wearing head scarf? or is it not legal?
Legal doesn't come in to it, normal British women wouldn't want to work wearing a headscarf. Headscarfs in England became unfashionable after the 60's. They look ridiculous!

Hairnets are used in the food industry to meet with Health and Safety regulations.

These days only religious idiots insist on wearing such items of ridiculous clothing in public places

:D

Vienna:

Here is something to you from the guardian:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,1145496,00.html

Some say:

For thousands of years they kept crying to God to help them. So, God got tired of hearing that and put oil there so that they can live peacefully among the rest of the world. If they continue this S***, they might find the oil disappear and move elsewhere with a few simple God created Earthquakes. One has already happened in IRAN. More coming. Remember God does not work in human time. But it is coming in the next 30 years. Karma is very powerful.

I dont know what is that supposed to mean?


bye!

Its not the question of Egypt.Its not the question Of Islam.The question really is the Hatred that spreads amongst people because of such threads.I am a Hindu,being born and raised in such a family has given me true values of Hinduism which is very very scientific religion and off course the pet religion of all the Education systems throughout the world for siting examples in Astronomy and science,but that doesnt give me the right to bash other religion and talk about how bad their culture is.Goofyfish has moderated the post here,but he has actually allowed this abhorring thread to stay on.I dont understand this.One should remember what swami Vivekanada said at the opening of his lecture in Chicago,for which he got a staggering applause: My dear Brothers and sisters".

Needless to say,that Egypt might be repressive,but does that give us right to say anything?and do anything? could you rationalize this? I remember when a Sikh was killed in U.S. because he looked like O.B.Laden,during that emotional period of 9/11.Do you think Muslims didnt feel for families involved in that Horrible incident?were Hindus different in their Feelings?

I have been to Egypt and believe me,i never felt any sort of racist shit that these people talk about.when entered my room they had kept Geeta in my room.I had my brother who was working in Saudi Arab where he was never exploited or discriminated and he practised Hinduism freely.

U.S i agree is a bit like India,although India has a lot of catching on to do if it has to come even close to U.S. in terms of its openness to other cultures.Every country struggles with some discriminations over some period,did any country raise any issues like apartheid with U.S in 60s? No. No one dared except for strong words from India as far as i remember,In U.N assembly.Every country goes through this phase of re-srtucturing.Most African countries are still developing into stable nations,but that doesnt mean you bash them unnecessarily.Please guys,show a little concern but dont play them out as yet.They are our brothers after all.(I wont say sisters though ;))


bye!

Legal doesn't come in to it, normal British women wouldn't want to work wearing a headscarf. Headscarfs in England became unfashionable after the 60's. They look ridiculous!

Hairnets are used in the food industry to meet with Health and Safety regulations.

These days only religious idiots insist on wearing such items of ridiculous clothing in public places




Just show how many brain cells you can use in reply to any post. :cool: :D

The correct answer is.............................................1.3 5
:D

Vienna:

Here is something to you from the guardian:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,1145496,00.html
This is quite true Proud, Labour is very pro immigration regardless of the impact it makes on British society and its established immigrants. I forecast that the next government voted in will be right wing, and Labour will not regain power for many years.

"I forecast that the next government voted in will be right wing..."

Waiting- to cut out the deadwood.
Waiting- to clean up the city.
Waiting- to follow the worms.

Waiting- to put on a black shirt.
Waiting- to weed out the weaklings.
Waiting- to smash in their windows, and kick in their doors.
Waiting- for the final solution to strengthen the strain.

"I forecast that the next government voted in will be right wing..."

Waiting- to cut out the deadwood.
Waiting- to clean up the city.
Waiting- to follow the worms.

Waiting- to put on a black shirt.
Waiting- to weed out the weaklings.
Waiting- to smash in their windows, and kick in their doors.
Waiting- for the final solution to strengthen the strain.

OK.... you know jack shit about British politics!

Do you do an encore? :rolleyes:

Your just another brick in the wall Vienna

Seems like Waders knows more about British culture than you do though ;)
Dee Cee

Your just another brick in the wall Vienna

Seems like Waders knows more about British culture than you do though ;)
Dee Cee

I am surrounded by idiots :rolleyes:

Grow up children.

I am surrounded by idiots :rolleyes:

Grow up children.
Vienna my lil old strudel muffin!

That's no way to talk about your family. Remember they are the only ones who love you (one would hope), while we just dislike you and like to antagonise you. :D


I forecast that the next government voted in will be right wing, and Labour will not regain power for many years.
Think long and hard Vienna. Would you really want your forecast to come true? What am I asking :rolleyes:. Of course you do. You will be the first to partake in the vile terror and violence that usually follow the right wing political parties. I can just see you now at a book burning...

Think long and hard Vienna. Would you really want your forecast to come true? What am I asking :rolleyes:. Of course you do. You will be the first to partake in the vile terror and violence that usually follow the right wing political parties. I can just see you now at a book burning...

I am as right wing as you can get Bells, but your description leaves much to be desired. I honestly thought you were much brighter than that to write such drivel. To the corner with you, join the other children , Shooo!

Back to the thread boys and girls :D

"EGYPT is racist and is against any other religion other than islam"


Here is (http://www.memri.org/video/index.html) a bunch of nice videos of hateful sermons and brainwashings from our muslim friends in the Arab world.

This one (http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_10-30-02_01.rm&screensize=double) shows a 3.5 year old girl, Basmilla, and what a devout Muslim she is. her mum must be proud

This one (http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_10-30-02_05.rm&screensize=double) shows the family of a suicide bomber, and other people preparing their families to be shahids. a 12-year-old is saying to his father "why can't i be a shahid? why do my 4 older brothers get to but i can't?"
beautiful family

What lovely people - NOT!

Mais oui, encore: You might fit in better here in the States, where you can rise to the top of the neu Empire, by slippery-spinning whenever you're caught. "Look! Over there! Racist Egyptians!" But we're onto you anyway, little Wienershnitzel.

I am surrounded by idiotsAnd it wasn't a Muslim who sold you a ticket to the Hall of Mirrors.

At least, I am under the impression you're not a Muslim, Vienna.

"Look! Over there! Racist Egyptians!"
LOL! :D Well if the cap fits.

And it wasn't a Muslim who sold you a ticket to the Hall of Mirrors.

At least, I am under the impression you're not a Muslim, Vienna.


Stick to writing - You'll never be a comedian.

Oh, and your powers of observation are impressive! - Join the others in the corner Tiassa

"LOL! :D Well if the cap fits."
You're a good sport.
:thumps Vienna on shoulder:

I am under the impression you're not a Muslim, Vienna
I don't believe he is tiassa but he has a (un)healthy fear of them.

Vienna I know we can trust you to perform Gods will. Strap on your suicide vest, get down to that local mosque of yours and blow the Fucker.
Then your name will live for ever and your childrens faces shine with pride!

Allah Akbar! (http://muslim.jeeran.com/)
Dee Cee

and your childrens faces shine with pride!


Dee Cee
I bet your face would shine too! :D

Warning: Turn down the volume before clicking deecee's link:

Allahu Akbar- Wullah! (http://muslim.jeeran.com/)

I just jumped outta my skin! (was lisnin 2 a little nachtmuzik before- big mistake)

I bet your face would shine too!
Perhaps for a short while but I think I would survive.
Whats with you anyway?
I'm on call all night, whats your excuse for trolling the net at 4:30 am?
Having trouble sleeping?
The wogs invading your dreams as well as your neighbourhood?

Dee Cee

I busted my plane, and I'm mad at meself. But that's another thread, that would be very cathartic, if anyone gave a shite about my problems.

You have a plane waders?
Do they still let muslim sympathisers fly planes in your country?
Go on, tell me it's only used for woodworking. :)
Dee Cee

It's true. I augered it into the ground. Didn't terrorize anything but my ego, which is in total disarray, so be gentle. But that's another thread.

I am as right wing as you can get Bells, but your description leaves much to be desired. I honestly thought you were much brighter than that to write such drivel. To the corner with you, join the other children , Shooo!

Vienna, ahhh Vienna my lil old mouldy strudel. My description is apt when one looks at history. But you obviously disagree. Hmmm what picture would best describe right wing politics in the UK at the moment? Ah yes here it is:

http://www.bnp.org.uk/images/h/h49.gif

Ahh yes... the annual right wing shin dig (http://www.bnp.org.uk/rwb2001.html). :D

Makes you proud to be a right winger just like him huh?

Tell me something Vienna, when you first join, do you get a helmet with the small horns and then graduate to bigger ones with each migrant you kill?

DeeCee

Whats with you anyway?
I'm on call all night, whats your excuse for trolling the net at 4:30 am?
Having trouble sleeping?
The wogs invading your dreams as well as your neighbourhood?

He's probably sitting up with a shotgun pointed at the door in case a 'darkie' walks past his house.

Tiassa


And it wasn't a Muslim who sold you a ticket to the Hall of Mirrors.

At least, I am under the impression you're not a Muslim, Vienna.

LMAO! Ah that's brilliant :D ... beautiful... really.. hehehehe

LMAO! Ah that's brilliant :D ... beautiful... really.. hehehehe
Yes, as you say the BNP looks quite favourable.