I had a strange thought the other day while driving home from work.

Let's say the soul DOES exist. In the conventional sense of the word. As in the essence of your being. That ethereal thing that resides in your body temporarily until you expire then does whatever (goes to heaven/hell, becomes a ghost, gets absorbed into the absolute... whatever).

However, people are not BORN with souls.
They have to earn their souls through their works while here on this planet.
Ssomewhat similar to the Vedic teachings and Buddhist samsra, if you acquire enough wisdom while you are here, you will earn your soul and its place in Nirvana.
If you do not earn your soul before you die, you will simply disappear at death. No afterlife, no eternal bliss or suffering, no nothing, you simply no longer continue to exist.

If, however, you DO earn your soul, then, upon death, you will go onto whatever your version of Nirvana is.
There is no "Hell".
Hell is simply the state of being without a soul here on Earth.

Obviously this is FAR from a complete idea, but I just though the notion was interesting.

Or maybe I was just having a flaky moment and let myself run with it. :)

I don't agree, we are born with souls and we can never get rid of them. The soul can get rid of a physical body but the physical body can never get rid of the soul.
The physical body wouldn't exist wihtout the soul.

Maybe it's not the soul you should earn but only an access to it?

Originally posted by Bebelina
we are born with souls and we can never get rid of them. The soul can get rid of a physical body but the physical body can never get rid of the soul.
The physical body wouldn't exist wihtout the soul.


Why?
What makes you think that?

I am not saying this is necessarily what I believe.
I just thought it was an idea I liked.

It would neatly explain the question people often seem to bring up: "If there is a finite number of souls in heaven, why would the population of the earth keep climbing?" Simple. Not everyone has one.

I like the way it ties together with Hinduism and Buddhism as well.

I also like the concept of not being entitled to Heaven and having to take responsibility of your actions.

It would explain why so many people on Earth suffer and think it is Hell.

I am not really thinking about this as a valid theory (thought possible).
I am more thinking of it as a subject for a short story or abstract composition of sorts.

Yes, I got the theory part One Raven, so I'm not accusing you of being wrong or something like that. Believe whatever you want to and I will do the same.
I don't believe there's a finite number of souls either, more like ..infinite.
But your theory was neat, sounds like something one could make a movie about, or maybe it has been done already. What a wonderful life? Slightly similar anyway...
You see, my worldview is more of the kind that the physical and spiritual world lives in symbiosis, that the energy that we are composed of have both an physical and non physical existance.
Like water can be both fluid and as ice, or whatever...

Originally posted by Bebelina
You see, my worldview is more of the kind that the physical and spiritual world lives in symbiosis, that the energy that we are composed of have both an physical and non physical existance.
Like water can be both fluid and as ice, or whatever...

So you are saying that we can pass. at will, between the spiritual and physical reals of existence?
Do you believe in reincarnation?
Do you think that the spirit has free will and a choice in the matter?
For example: After I die, can I be sitting up on the spiritual plane and say. "Next time I am going down as a black woman in France" or. "This time I think I will be a cat."?

I believe in reincarnation, but to your other questions all I can answer is : I don't know.
But I would like there to be free will even in the reincarnation issue.
I think these things are quite impossible for us to know, but we can have fun guessing.

1) If you lose an arm do you lose some of your soul?
2) What if you have been in a car accident and your brain is severely impaired, for ever-after you are constantly angry (lets agree the medical profession can see this is a direct result from the damage to your brain). What happened to the soul?
3) If the brain is dead and the body is fine where is the soul?
4) Hela cell lines were derived from a patient 5 decades ago. Is her soul “floating” along with all these cell cultures? :)
5) Can you sell your soul?
6) How does your soul and a “possession” connect?
7) Is your soul smart? Does it know stuff?
8) Does it feel things?
9) Does it have opinions?
10) Will it give a crap when it sits its "arse" down in hell for oo?!?

Or is it all a bunch of hooey?

Interesting idea... however you still have to decide what would 'earn a soul'. I have a feeling the details would be much more difficult to create objectivly... and would be biased towards whatever belief system/society you were brought up under.

Well, I think that what would earn a soul would be acquired wisdom.
That is how I see it tying Hinduism (beleiving that each time you are reincarnated your soul loses its knowledge, but retains its wisdom and the cycle of rebirths is broken once your soul acquires enough wisdom) and Buddhism (breaking the cycle of samsra by acquiring the wisdom required to be an enlightened one or Buddha and losing your attachment for this world) together.

However that approach would still face the sameissues you pointed out.

Originally posted by Persol
I have a feeling the details would be much more difficult to create objectivly... and would be biased towards whatever belief system/society you were brought up under.
What would be an objective universal definition of wisdom?

I haven't read one that satifies me yet.

1) If you lose an arm do you lose some of your soul? No

2) What if you have been in a car accident and your brain is severely impaired, for ever-after you are constantly angry (lets agree the medical profession can see this is a direct result from the damage to your brain). What happened to the soul? Nothing.

3) If the brain is dead and the body is fine where is the soul? If the brain is truly "dead" (no functioning whatsoever and only the machines are keeping you alive) which is very rarely (if ever) actually the case, then your soul is released because you are dead, you are nothing more than an inanimate machine made up of decaying matter at that point. You aren't alive, you body has the illusion of being alive.

4) Hela cell lines were derived from a patient 5 decades ago. Is her soul “floating” along with all these cell cultures? :) No

5) Can you sell your soul? Why in the market for a new one? :) No.

6) How does your soul and a “possession” connect?I have no idea what youare talking about.

7) Is your soul smart? Does it know stuff? Yes, but not necessarily in the way we generally define and apply the word "smart" to living animals on the physical plane. The soul would be the center for processing emotions as opposed to the brain being the center for processing analytical thought. The brain makes us intelligent, the soul makes us wise.

8) Does it feel things? Physical? Emotional? What do you mean? See answer to number 7.

9) Does it have opinions?Number 7, again.

10) Will it give a crap when it sits its "arse" down in hell for oo?!?Hell is that state of soullessness on Earth, so No, the soul could never BE in hell, only the soulless body.


Or is it all a bunch of hooey? of course it is. :D

Originally posted by one_raven
What would be an objective universal definition of wisdom? I like making wisdom the guidline as it requires both logic and emotion... and control of each.

As for the 'objective universal definition', I don't believe you can really have one... which complicates things. You either have to resort to some higher power (aka god) or popular opinion of the other souls.

What is your personal definition of "Wisdom".
As specific as you can be.

wisdow - knowing what is right and true

How do you objectively judge this however without knowing everything?

One raven,


The soul would be the center for processing emotions as opposed to the brain being the center for processing analytical thought. The brain makes us intelligent, the soul makes us wise.OK that’s enough. The brain is responsible for thought and emotions. There is sufficient clinical evidence to reach that conclusion.

The concept of a soul offers no purpose and there is no way something non-physical can connect with something physical.

Note also that the derivation of ‘soul’ came from ‘breath’ when it was noticed long ago that when people die they have no breath, hence the ignorant conclusion that breath is a spirit.

The fantasy idea of a soul is born out of ignorance and it continues to be propagated by the ignorant.


Or is it all a bunch of hooey?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

of course it is. LOL.

Originally posted by one_raven

somewhat similar to the Vedic teachings and Buddhist samsra, if you acquire enough wisdom while you are here, you will earn your soul and its place in Nirvana.
One,

Both Vedic teachings and Buddhism says soul is eternal not earned. When they mention reincarnation they mean reincarnation of the soul. Nirvana is attaining freedom of this soul from the bindings that make the soul to undergo cycles of births and deaths. Vedic idea of this freedom from bondage is reunion with God. Buddhist Nirvana means the soul attains eternal freedom and bliss.

Both philosophies stress that death is not the end of the soul's existence. And they say soul is the self. Not the thoughts or mind or brain.

Originally posted by everneo
One,

Both Vedic teachings and Buddhism says soul is eternal not earned. When they mention reincarnation they mean reincarnation of the soul. Nirvana is attaining freedom of this soul from the bindings that make the soul to undergo cycles of births and deaths. Vedic idea of this freedom from bondage is reunion with God. Buddhist Nirvana means the soul attains eternal freedom and bliss.

Both philosophies stress that death is not the end of the soul's existence. And they say soul is the self. Not the thoughts or mind or brain.

You are not exactly right there, but I do understand what you are saying, and I wasn't trying to say otherwise.

Buddha actually taught that there is no such thing as the soul at all.
The Third Fundamental Law of Buddhism is Anatta, or soullessness.
There is no permanent self, essence or soul.

Vedic teachings DO say that the soul is eternal, but that you have to earn your way into Nirvana.

I know that what I am saying is not the same as these teachings, that is why I said, "Somewhat similar".

It is sort inspired by something in the middle of them with a little dash of me mixed in there.

"Buddhism does not totally deny the existence of a personality in an empirical sense. It only attempts to show that it does not exist in an ultimate sense. The Buddhist philosophical term for an individual is santana, i.e., a flux or a continuity. It includes the mental and physical elements as well. The kammic force of each individual binds the elements together. This uninterrupted flux or continuity of psycho-physical phenomenon, which is conditioned by kamma, and not limited only to the present life, but having its source in the beginningless past and its continuation in the future — is the Buddhist substitute for the permanent ego or the immortal soul of other religions"
http://www.buddhanet.org.au/budstudy/buddhism/nshell09.htm

Besides reincarnation and rebirth are so indeifferentiable and tend to refer to soul or continuous flux of consciousness. may be some buddishts here can give further insight.

But, vedas are clear in telling individual has soul that is actually undergoing birth-death cycles. That is not something earned but realised and that self realisation is the freedom of soul from bondage.

Originally posted by Michael
1) If you lose an arm do you lose some of your soul?
2) What if you have been in a car accident and your brain is severely impaired, for ever-after you are constantly angry (lets agree the medical profession can see this is a direct result from the damage to your brain). What happened to the soul?
3) If the brain is dead and the body is fine where is the soul?
4) Hela cell lines were derived from a patient 5 decades ago. Is her soul “floating” along with all these cell cultures? :)
5) Can you sell your soul?
6) How does your soul and a “possession” connect?
7) Is your soul smart? Does it know stuff?
8) Does it feel things?
9) Does it have opinions?
10) Will it give a crap when it sits its "arse" down in hell for oo?!?

Or is it all a bunch of hooey?

Interesting questions.
1. No, but the soul would be aware of the loss.
2. I would say that the soul for some reason wanted to experience anger.
3. Probably floating in and out of the body, trying to decide if it's time to let go.
4. No, but maybe she comes to look into what you are doing with her cells.
5. No.
6. I'm not sure I understand this question, do you mean how the soul relates to your belongings? I think it's deeply fascinated.
7. Yes, very smart, knows more that I do. The human brain is very limited.
8. Yes, also more than I.
9. I would think so.
10. There is no hell, so no, it won't give a crap.
Bunch of hooey? Yes, isn't everything?

:p

Originally posted by one_raven

It would neatly explain the question people often seem to bring up: "If there is a finite number of souls in heaven, why would the population of the earth keep climbing?" Simple. Not everyone has one.


Maybe there is a finite number of souls in heaven, but the number is too big for us to comprehend or count too, that could also explain why there are so many people.

Originally posted by New Life
...the number is too big for us to comprehend ...
That is possible

Originally posted by New Life
... the number is too big for us to .. count too, ..
I don't understand?

Originally posted by New Life
.. that could also explain why there are so many people. How many are so many?

who actually believes there is a little being of emphemeral quality floating in our head controlling our bodies? i don't believe in a soul per sea, but who really knows? though i still think the idea is rather wrong.

Some good thoughts! I too have toyed with ideas like this, but I would say, quite categorically, that each person is born with a new soul; I don't really beleive in that reincarnation crap (though I haven't ruled it out), and it also seems quite widely accepted when talking about the soul, that each person is responsible for their own. This sort of parallels with the free-will that is supposed to be responsible for the body. Whether we earn a soul, or are given one, one_raven, I am quite sure there is one. I did have more confidence in such a thing, but it wasn't long ago that I imagined how there could not be such a thing, i.e., I could see a way through. :(

Originally posted by New Life
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Maybe there is a finite number of souls in heaven, but the number is too big for us to comprehend or count too, that could also explain why there are so many people.
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(As I sit here with my computer on a Friday night, I went back and read some of the earlier posts. This one deserved comment. There's no need to count the number of souls. There is only one spirit of which we all share. The idea of one body:one soul is inaccurate. There can be an infinite number of people sharing in the one spirit. When does the One Spirit of God come into a new body? Have you ever heard someone say a pregnant woman has "a glow?" When the fetus reaches a viable growth, the spirit moves through it, in and out of the body of the mother. Just thought I'd add this thought.)

Originally posted by Michael

I don't understand?
How many are so many?


What I meant with the too many to count to (error in grammar on my part) was that maybe the limit of souls in heaven is a number that we could never count to...........its like counting every grain of sand on earth...impossible for us.


I dont know how many are so many and I dont think any human ever could know the exact number.

Originally posted by New Life
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What I meant with the too many to count to (error in grammar on my part) was that maybe the limit of souls in heaven is a number that we could never count to...........its like counting every grain of sand on earth...impossible for us. I dont know how many are so many and I dont think any human ever could know the exact number.
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(God made it easy. There's only one soul.)

The soul concept was a mistake. It derives from the ignorant idea that the breath in a person is their soul.

This ancient error evolved into duality concepts which have even less basis, at least we could sense breath.

And modern science as it rapidly extends its understanding of the human brain has seen no evidence that a soul is either present or in any way necessary.

And you'd think that with 6 billion people currently alive and some more billions that have died that we might have found at least some tiny clue that a soul might exist, or even that it could exist. But there is zilch.

The concept of a soul is just a really dumb idea. There are no such things.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman

(God made it easy. There's only one soul.)


i disagree.

The soul concept was a mistake. It derives from the ignorant idea that the breath in a person is their soul
to true. and when one sneezes it was thought that the soul was trying to escape the body, hence "bless you" when someone sneezes.