How should a democratic government deal with this?


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/londonnews/articles/10329634?version=1

Four young British Muslims in their twenties - a social worker, an IT specialist, a security guard and a financial adviser - occupy a table at a fast-food chicken restaurant in Luton. Perched on their plastic chairs, wolfing down their dinner, they seem just ordinary young men. Yet out of their mouths pour heated words of revolution.

"As far as I'm concerned, when they bomb London, the bigger the better," says Abdul Haq, the social worker. "I know it's going to happen because Sheikh bin Laden said so. Like Bali, like Turkey, like Madrid - I pray for it, I look forward to the day."

Until recently, nobody took the fanatical beliefs of al-Muhajiroun too seriously, believing that a British-based group so brazenly "out there" could not be involved in something as "underground" as terrorism. The group is led by the exiled Saudi, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad, from his base in north London. Yesterday, in a magazine article, Bakri warned that several radical groups are poised to strike in London.

Detectives fear that the "enemy within", the homegrown extremists leading apparently normal lives in suburbia, now pose the greatest threat to security in Britain. Sayful and his friends fit this "homegrown" profile: three were born here, two came as young children from Pakistan; all were educated in local Luton schools; and they grew up in families of full employment - one of their fathers is a retired local businessman, two are engineers, and two worked in the local Vauxhall car plant.

As of now, I think the government should detain all of these people who obviously show intentions to become terrorists and lock them up as long as it takes.

"obviously show intentions"
...
what are the criterias?

"as long as it takes"
...
takes to do what?
how long would that be?

In a free and democratic society these people are entitled to their opinions. Are what they are saying is correct? Obviously not, but they haven't indicated that they will attack certain facilities. They have freedom of speech, like it or not. The same freedom that allows us all to speak our own opinions here. The Western gov'ts should keep tabs on those it suspects are potential terrorists, financial transactions, electronic evidence,etc collect evidence then go ahead and prosecute these individuals. I don't think any of us want what hungvu wants, we don't want Japanese interment camps again. We are a sophisticated society, we have the rule of law, and we have to improve and maybe even revise our laws but not to give in our freedoms and our lives to a bunch of ideologues. We are better then that...

So you have never heard of Political Correctness - the Marxist idea that runs rife throughout the UK , - eh?


I think Voltaire could be credited with that not Marx. What allows you to say this allows them to say what they say. What you said was wrong, what they said was wrong should I get rid of you also? I am sorry but I don't think most Britons would want to live in a fascist society.

It is against the law in the UK for anyone to say anything that discriminates Muslims - did you know that?

Also for Jews, and Sikhs, and the Irish, etc. Of course it is illegal because bigotry does not help society at all.

Freedom of speech does not exist in the UK, you are free to say whatever you like as long as it doesn't upset the Government and the Law.


Freedom of Speech has to have its reasonable limits; the gov't is the law and the gov't is the society. She has the social contract with society to fulfill the rule of law. If you don't like this concept, then move to a nation where democracy does not exist. Where gov'tmental accountability doesn't exist. If you follow the laws nothing is going to happen to you, should you break them you broke the contract and you get your just deserves.

But its OK for these Muslims to say this - and no one interferes - why - because they don't want to upset the racial applecart thats why.


They didn't say anything racist, they didn't say anything that could be characterized as a threat, and they didn't say anything that hurts any one group. They as part of British society have a right to voice that opinion. They don't have a right to act on it.

Noble thoughts Mein Kapitan but it's all a bit too late for all that.


These "noble thoughts" prevent this from happening again:

http://www.mortandmindy.com/voices/stalin.jpg

I do not know the law in the England but we do not allow anyone to incite to riot in the United States. If there is a similar law in the England then they should be prosecuted under the same laws. Even the clan does not publicly espouse violence any more. weather or not this is a good idea in respect to freedom is a subject to argue over. I am pretty sure that England has laws to deal with terrorist after fighting with the IRA for so long. No free society can endure for very long if it allows the plotting of criminals to be carried out in public under the guise of freedom. Free speech does not apply to crimes.

"As far as I'm concerned, when they bomb London, the bigger the better," says Abdul Haq, the social worker. "I know it's going to happen because Sheikh bin Laden said so. Like Bali, like Turkey, like Madrid - I pray for it, I look forward to the day."


Where is the threat? Show me... what this man said was not a threat. Bin Laden carried out a threat to London, this man didn't. He personally did not threaten to carry out the attack, OBL did. We all know OBL is already guilty. What he said was wrong, but it was not illegal. Hoping a praying for a attack is not action, nor men rea. He is within the limits of British law. Law is not cut and dry; it's not as simple as you may think it is. In the UK you are lucky because you have a common law system where precedents reign supreme; I bet you know what that means...

"I would like to see the Mujahideen coming into London and killing thousands, whether with nuclear weapons or germ warfare. And if they need a safehouse, they can stay in mine - and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I'll tell them where to get it."


He would like to see, does not imply that it will happen, nor does it mean he has prior knowledge to a future incident. He does deserve further investigation due to this comment:

they can stay in mine - and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I'll tell them where to get it."


This would amount to a conspiracy, and accessory. But neither has happened, he still did not break any laws.

"You want to know how far I will go," says Abu Musa, his high-pitched lisp rising an octave. "When Allah said in the Koran 'kill and be killed', that's what I want. I want a martyr operation, where I kill my enemy."
------------------------
"Yes," he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won't be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.


This man obviously deserves further investigation, and I do believe that he did threaten the "enemy". So yes this instance he did threaten, and should be charged. But the quote in which I was referring to before did not contain a threat.

Political Correctness is intellectual AIDS.

That alone made me laugh, can we get a real source shall we? Voltaire was the one who was the advocate of tolerance, long before Marx was even born. Think again...

I think all four should be publicly shot broadcast on public television as a warning to the rest of the lot. And each should be guilty of treason and conspiracy to commit and promote terrorist activity. They should make a special and rebroadcast it as a movie every once in a while. Especially where they all get lined up and shot in the end.

I think all four should be publicly shot broadcast on public television as a warning to the rest of the lot. And each should be guilty of treason and conspiracy to commit and promote terrorist activity. They should make a special and rebroadcast it as a movie every once in a while. Especially where they all get lined up and shot in the end.

I think you'll like this guy...

http://image.pathfinder.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/1007/germany/images/saddam.jpg

He would have loved ya!

I am just wondering how many of you are fascists? How many of you hate our democratic societies?

People are just frustrated that some islamists would repay you in death for the life and opportunities the british people have given to their families when they fled to the U.K. seeking seeking asylum or a better way of life. It was like raising snakes after all. You feed them and love them and they bite you back with all the venom they possess. :(

What do we do with these snakes that the British people have adopted? It is a very serious problem.

These people are now British people and are entitled to British rights. I think the gov't should reform its laws to better address the situation. Allow the police more flexibility to monitor and charge these people. If we want to seriously end this threat, we have to have work with the Islamic community so that understand and embrace our side by telling their children that terrorism and its ideology is wrong. To appreciate the gifts of living in X country over their home country. The Islamic community itself has to start getting off its arse and start doing something. If they don’t fascist lovers putsches will end up successful, they have to be proactive.

These four guys were undeniably promoting terrorism. If UK is so disgusting to them that bombing London was considered "the bigger the better", then why are they still living in the country that they hate so much? I think these hypocrites should first be taken away their UK citizenship and second deported to live where they love, Bin Laden's cave. At this time, I bet they will not even dare to say anything negative to Bin Laden.

Undecided, this is totally different than the Japanese camps because the Japanese at that time did not even show any wish or intention against the U.S. while in this case these four people obviously show their evil wishes and it is very possible that they will become a terrorist not only with talking but also with action when an opportunity comes along.

If being politically correct is the only option, then nothing is supposed to be done. Just leave them alone and wait until something happens then react.

Undecided, this is totally different than the Japanese camps because the Japanese at that time did not even show any wish or intention against the U.S. while in this case these four people obviously show their evil wishes and it is very possible that they will become a terrorist not only with talking but also with action when an opportunity comes along

It’s the same fear, and there were some Japanese who were spying on the US at the time. Who do you think was telling Tokyo about the movements of carriers at Pearl Harbor? What I fear is that some people want to intern all of the Islamic community in these countries. Innocent Muslims, good Muslims who are honest people will suffer. It was very possible in 1940's America some Japanese were wiling to do X as well. The only difference is that they weren't stupid enough to voice that opinion. We in a western society value our legal system and rights, and we can't allow mere paranoia to take over these values that those same "terrorists" hate. If we give those up they have won.

If being politically correct is the only option, then nothing is supposed to be done. Just leave them alone and wait until something happens then react

It's not being politically correct it's being tolerant. I am tolerating your position, you are tolerating mine. This is beyond this infantile conversation of "political correctness" this isn't Gr.2 anymore. This is the basis of our modern societies, if you don't want tolerance, rule of law, and freedom of speech. Then I do suggest you vote yes in this thread:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=35246

If you one of the closet fascists, just come out. I may sound like a liberal idealist, but I am neither. What I am telling you is that you like our way of life, then defend it. Don't take away from us for some fanatics. I support allowing the police having more powers, and easier charges, or even re-thinking the immigration laws, etc. I am not saying we just let this lie, but we cannot have Authoritarian power in these countries.

What do we do with these snakes that the British people have adopted? It is a very serious problem.

I am British and I haven't adopted any snakes but the government has.

I wasn't asked if I would like these snakes to come and live in this country, the government did this all without asking the people of Britain if these snakes would be welcome. The government Knew these snakes weren't welcome by the public,, but they still came, in droves, and they still come. For the last fifty years and they still come, legally and illegally.

And now they want to damage this country with violence. It is a serious problem. But then you get people like Undecided who is so laid back, if someone was kicking the shit out of him, he would think "Maybe the guy doesn't mean to hurt me".

I am not a label, I am not facist commi liberal conservative or nazi. I am not a label, I am me. I will attack anyone who threatens me or my family or wants to damage the country I live in. If it's a war these cowardly snakes want, then I'm as ready as anyone.

But then you get people like Undecided who is so laid back

What I am saying is well within the limits of our democratic system, you on the hand want what? A purge? Internment camps? Mass Deportation? Extra judicial killings? Mass surveillance? What? These are not within the limits of a democratic society. You may think you are what you are, but you sir sound like a fascist. Get out of the closet.

But then you get people like Undecided who is so laid back

What I am saying is well within the limits of our democratic system, you on the hand want what? A purge? Internment camps? Mass Deportation? Extra judicial killings? Mass surveillance? What? These are not within the limits of a democratic society. You may think you are what you are, but you sir sound like a fascist. Get out of the closet.

When Germany attacked Britain we attacked back and kicked its arse - Are you suggesting that is fascism? Or are you a poor loser.... :D

Nah...You're just a loser.

Attack my country and you attack me, I'll fight back no matter who or where you are.

When Germany attacked Britain we attacked back and kicked its arse - Are you suggesting that is fascism?

Reality check, the UK was getting it's ass kicked. It was the US and USSR that saved your pathetic empire. You were on the cusp of becoming nothing more then a blip on the nazi map. You are damned lucky...

When Germany attacked Britain we attacked back and kicked its arse - Are you suggesting that is fascism?

Reality check, the UK was getting it's ass kicked. It was the US and USSR that saved your pathetic empire. You were on the cusp of becoming nothing more then a blip on the nazi map. You are damned lucky...

OOOooo Touched a nerve have we...

The war was in its 3rd year before America decided to help. Fuck me, don't talk about Americas help. If America is really an ally, where were you in 1939 ??? eh? Where the fuck was America???

If it wasn't for Hitler declaring war on USA you would have let us get taken over - and it was very close.

Hitler won the war for Britain, if he had attacked us instead of going for Russia, we would have been taken in days. He went for Russia instead, giving us breathing space to arm ourselves better, but it would have all been in vain if Hitler hadn't declared war on you. So in a way I thank Hitlers bad judgements, the Germans allowed Britain to win the war through their own bad judgement. We owe America nothing!

basicly islamic snake got what it deserved from stalin...
The setting: 1942 Germans are advancing on the Russian front many people in Russia and the conquered countries become German henchmen and kill their own countrymen.
Chechnya & Crimea; 50-60% of the Chechens & Tartars go over to the German side and start persecuting their countrymen by becoming "polizei" in work and death camps and outright support of the german units.
1943 The Russian front is being pushed back southern Russia is more secure in 24 hours stalin rounded up every chechen and most of the crimean tartars and sent em to build houses in the arctic circle.

Afterthought all of them deserved it they turned on their fellow man in the hour of need and attacked their neighborghs and countrymen with whom they lived for many years. They got exactly what they deserved if not enough. If I was stalin i woulda had them executed instead of gulaged.

Yep - and it isn't going to happen in Britain - you just watch.

And Undecided (Very apt name - Doesn't know up from down) Get that stupid flag outta my face - its crap.

If America is really an ally, where were you in 1939 ??? eh? Where the fuck was America???

Since I am not American, it was us in Canada who was in the fight since 1939. So we were helping you, and we would have harbored your navy and royal family. Where was America? She was in the background giving you aid in those early years. But you wouldn't have survived without her.

If it wasn't for Hitler declaring war on USA you would have let us get taken over - and it was very close.

Thank you all I needed to hear; you owe your existence to the power of the US.

If America is really an ally, where were you in 1939 ??? eh? Where the fuck was America???

Since I am not American, it was us in Canada who was in the fight since 1939. So were helping you, and we would have harbored your navy and royal family. Where was America? She was in the background giving you aid in those early years. But you wouldn't have survived without her.

If it wasn't for Hitler declaring war on USA you would have let us get taken over - and it was very close.

Thank you all I needed to hear; you owe your existence to the power of the US.

And if Hitler hadn't declared war on America?

Anyway Undecided, with friends like you who the fuck needs enemies.

I personally owe nothing to America

And if Hitler hadn't declared war on America?


According to the Atlantic Charter the US stated that it was fighting also to destroy the Nazi's. That was written months before December 1941, so the US entering into the war without Hitler was a real possibility. It was really out of Hitler's hands, he was tied in by the Pact of Steel with Japan, and he saw a golden opportunity. The UK would have lost the war without the US; you have to at least admit that.

And if Hitler hadn't declared war on America?


According to the Atlantic Charter the US stated that it was fighting also to destroy the Nazi's. That was written months before December 1941, so the US entering into the war without Hitler was a real possibility. It was really out of Hitler's hands, he was tied in by the Pact of Steel with Japan, and he saw a golden opportunity. The UK would have lost the war without the US; you have to at least admit that.

Britain took THREE YEARS of battering without America. An ally would have aided from the start, America didn't. FACT.

Anyway, look at Britain today, its a shambles. I have seen war veterans cry, "Just look at what have we fought for". Instead of this country being a safe and free country for our children and grandchildren to live, it has turned into a country full of asylum seekers and immigrants. They burn the British flag, and pour violence on its streets. Now we wait for the UK to enter the list of casualties along with 9/11, Bali, Madrid, etc.

Vienna, then the solution might be to limit the flow of immigration. The problem exists in all nations, Islamic or not. In Saudi, in Canada, in Paraguay even. This is an international movement, this is a strong movement. Most Muslims aren't fanatical, don't blame the Islamic community, the more you villianize them the more radical they get. The Islamic community has to become pro-active and deal with this movement. They are dissatisfied youth, like gang members, like radicals, they are easily influenced. We have to come to the realization that those valiant soldiers in WWII fought for all our freedom, and we should cherish it for all.

The war was lost when he attacked Russia after 1943 it didnt matter weather US would intervine or not it was simply over for the wermacht. Three things happened in 1943, Stalingrad loss for the Germans. The battle of Kurskaya duga was a complete anihilation of their prime units and tank groups. One of their armies got captured forgot which one I think it was the 8th.

The Normandy landings were insurance so that france wouldn't become freed by the Russian forces and become socialist... Everything was already decided when they landed.

The authorities say that laws to protect religious expression and civil liberties have the result of limiting what they can do to stop hateful speech. In the case of foreigners, they say they are often left to seek deportation, a lengthy and uncertain process subject to legal appeals, when the suspect can keep inciting attacks.

from The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/26/international/europe/26EURO.html?pagewanted=2&hp)

Britain took THREE YEARS of battering without America. An ally would have aided from the start, America didn't. FACT.

The Battle of Britain didn't start until July 1940. The US was already supplying Britain by that time through the cash and carry program, and when Britain ran out of money extended that to the Lend Lease program in spring of '41. About that time US destroyers also started escorting British merchant ships as far as Iceland, by extending the normal patrol routes that far, so it could be claimed the DDs were merely patrolling instead of escorting, which violated neutrality laws. The FDR administration did everything it could to help Britain despite its own internal laws.

The authorities say that laws to protect religious expression and civil liberties have the result of limiting what they can do to stop hateful speech. In the case of foreigners, they say they are often left to seek deportation, a lengthy and uncertain process subject to legal appeals, when the suspect can keep inciting attacks.

from The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/26/international/europe/26EURO.html?pagewanted=2&hp)

And in Britain these laws are a joke - I sense the UK is going to get hit very soon and the British government has not done enough - and is not doing enough to stop these dregs of mankind from thriving in our country.

The British government is not protecting its people - it follows its own outrageous laws which protect these dogs from immediate deportation, or even arrest for treason.

British law is a joke and the government is sick.

well viena no offense but bitching about it here does nothing... what does solve the problem is by organizing a community group, writing to your councilman and expressing your views. Backing it up by action if your voice is rejected you try to change the approach and if they ignore you fight against them by publishing how their innaction on a particular issues effect their constituancy.

Granted you need composure and focus in persuing the route beforehand but if you do feel about the issue that vihimently I suggest you try the route mensioned earlier it might create a worthwhile outlet and maybe even bring results you seek.

I personally think if someone came out with a new party ideal in Britain like lower taxes higher enforcement of security to wind down crime. A lot would flock to them. Hell the biggest problem is approaching different issues correctly and marketing them accordingly. Its not "anti-immigrant laws" that need to be pushed but "higher security enforcement". I am all for legal immigration but the key word here is "legal".

Yes I agree with you. Going through the correct channels can affect government policies but the process is eternal; there is a sense of obvious emergency here and the government is not acting quick enough. A bill can be immediately passed through Parliament in such emergencies. When the UK is hit just watch new policies fly though Parliament. Its the same old story - someone has to suffer before something is done - preventive measures are unheard of. As for legal and illegal immigration, thats a joke. The doors to this country need to be slammed shut - for its own safety and survival. The East Europeans have now jumped on this bandwagon and coming to Britain in droves - the British public has had enough and something is going to blow - perhaps literally.

When Germany attacked Britain we attacked back and kicked its arse - Are you suggesting that is fascism? Or are you a poor loser.... :D

Nah...You're just a loser.

Attack my country and you attack me, I'll fight back no matter who or where you are.

Interesting, with the English having sold out Palestine to the Zionists in 1917 (Balfour Declaration), selling the land and destroying millions of lives, right from under the Arab inhabitants.

With all of English's abuses on the people in the Middle East and South Africa (Remember Shaka Kahn who had to kick the English in the teeth to gain freedom for his people, the Zulu's?), I find these "macho words" "Attack my country and I'll fight back no matter what or where you are," a bunch of self serving bull caca.

Hey England, "TIME TO PAY THE PIPER" for 400 years of your sinning and when BIG BEN is shown on TV burning and Londonary is in flames, the world will say (As "Don't cry for me Argentina" plays in the background): "What goes around comes around!" :D

How's that for a "none" English opinion? :p

Whirlwind...

As of now, I think the government should detain all of these people who obviously show intentions to become terrorists and lock them up as long as it takes.


Hey Hungfoo, are you kin to anyone in the German Gestapo?

(And I thought Herr Ashcroft was a fascist!).

Whirlwind....

I find these "macho words" "Attack my country and I'll fight back no matter what or where you are," a bunch of self serving bull caca.

Not caca - very sincere words - I invite you to test them


Hey England, "TIME TO PAY THE PIPER" for 400 years of your sinning and when BIG BEN is shown on TV burning and Londonary is in flames, the world will say (As "Don't cry for me Argentina" plays in the background): "What goes around comes around!" :D

How's that for a "none" English opinion? :p

Whirlwind...

You're no whirlwind - you are just rejected air from a pigs arse. And when the UK is attacked people like you will feel the brunt of it, I predict that the British public will take matters into their own hands.

Vienna, what exactly should the British public do when we take matters into our own hands? I've always liked the idea of an uprising of the people, but what would it consist of?

Amongst other things I predict riots like those of Oldham and such, but on a grand scale.

What would this achieve?

LOL! :D

Why all the questions..... :D

Just watch the news when it happens - work it out for yourself...LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Well I think Legal immigration is ok it has limits in most countries and hell I m an eastern european heh. Even Russia placed limits on immigration I think the current limit is 152 thousand possible legal resident statuses annual allowance. But most of the people in eastern europe usually dont wanna move to britain but make some dough and go back home. So you shouldnt be that much worried about it. As long as the Limits are ENFORCED they will work but you gotta blame your own country for being lax. Furthermore I honestly thin that if you just give your cops guns instead of just clubs you well have higher compliance :)

The interesting thing about the Islamist threat to Russia is the approach they are taking in the Duma (Rus Parliament) for example they are promoting the banning of Vahabism which is a branch of Islam thats associated with terrorists but theoreticly the law could be applied toward any Islamic worshiper because it is up to the state to decide weather you are a regular islamic practitioner or a vahabism islamic practicioner. This in effect would create a sort of deletion of Islam from four recognized and protected faiths and lower it to just three Orthodox, Protestant, Budhism. *and no Catholics are not well liked*

I have no issues with Eastern Europeans coming to Britain, and I would welcome them. - But No Muslims!

And you are right, the British Police need to be armed these days

When Germany attacked Britain we attacked back and kicked its arse - Are you suggesting that is fascism?

Reality check, the UK was getting it's ass kicked. It was the US and USSR that saved your pathetic empire. You were on the cusp of becoming nothing more then a blip on the nazi map. You are damned lucky...


Amen! :p

Whirlwind....

Its a huge wonder to me when I saw(on tv) riots of muslims in belgium and england and the rioters threw molotov coktails etc... into vehicles and cops while those were waving their clubs. True they had riot gear but If you had to pick between weapons and possibility of injurity it was definetely easier to throw a coktail into a cop then for him to hit you with that club. And yes its sad when someone gets wrongly shot in the US but it does deter a lot of crime and promote a lot of compliance by the public toward laws and otherwise...

Its a huge wonder to me when I saw(on tv) riots of muslims in belgium and england and the rioters threw molotov coktails etc... into vehicles and cops while those were waving their clubs. True they had riot gear but If you had to pick between weapons and possibility of injurity it was definetely easier to throw a coktail into a cop then for him to hit you with that club. And yes its sad when someone gets wrongly shot in the US but it does deter a lot of crime and promote a lot of compliance by the public toward laws and otherwise...

The sooner the British police are armed - the better!

It's gonna happen anyway - I'd rather it be now than later.

Another Idiocy I notice is the muslims praise terror thats commited against non-muslims as soon as its done. They only condemn it when they are pressed to it, so as to appear concerned. Its fake compasion which is outwardly visable and presented to be as such. This is like yes yes we are peaceful very peaceful we never hurt noone but as soon as the cameras move on they "praise allah for punishing the non-believers and share the good news". This is a bit ironic but to a certain degree it has some truth to it. Some even rationalize its righteous to blow up people because look at what US and Israel are doing but if your a Spaniard why the fuk should you care what either of them are doing your blood shouldn't bee spilled to make a point.

Personally I feel that whenever a terrorist acts occurs they should anihilate all of the family that the person had to make others know that if you harm us none of your family will get the 25,000 or whatever amount of money that was promised as a reward and you will not have anything left behind to remember you by. I figure after one or two such instances they would stop completely. You blow yourself up harm and kill people and your whole family including your cousins and uncles gets wiped out to follow you into the promised land.

that's how it used to be before these ridiculous Geneva Conventions were trumped up