Christians -

I have repeatedly heard people in this forum and in ordinary conversation claim that, while they were Christians, they weren't like other Christians, the ones that oppress, threaten, and hate. (Most notably from Lori, any time somebody takes her to task over something unrelated) Unfortunetly, unethical acts are still being perpetrated 'in the name of God'. My question is this; why aren't the rest of you christians doing something about it? I thought wrong was wrong, no matter who was involved? Don't you think that you have a responsibility to correct those in your own camp prior to setting out to conquer others? You 'good' christians ascribe to the same basic set of beliefs as the 'bad' christians, and many people will see you as essentially one and the same.. so, it can only help you to do so. Has anyone ever hear the saying 'Healer, heal thyself'?

FyreStar

FyreStar--

As I have nothing relevant to the data you've requested, I'll keep it brief:

Thank you for this topic. It's an important question.

Secondly, good luck.

However, I am not a Christian, and should probably bow out here. I'll be watching this one on the sideline, and I promise to try not to litter this one with lengthy invective.

thanx,
Tiassa

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"Religion isn't dead either. The AntiChrist will have access to computers, television, radio, and compact disc. If he walks among us already, the chances are that he has a walkman. I just hope it's not Christ himself, disillusioned after two thousand years in a cosmic sitting room full of magazines and cheeseplants, turned malignant and rotting in despair at the way his message has been perverted." (Robyn Hitchcock, 11/1987)

FyreStar,

As usual, your questions are always respectable and quite good. Hopefully, I have garnered some respect with you in the past. Now, that I'm back, it might even be good to finish the old conversation. As for this one, I will be as truthful as ever. Hopefully, I'll be a comfort to you in some way. I pray that any Christian imperfection has not given you cause to doubt God. It is of no use to let the bad actions of someone else make the choice for you to not accept the truth of God. Being able to live only one life, I can only answer for myself in this type of matter. Is it possible that I have been neglectful in this area? Yes, it is. I do not believe that I have been. At the same time, I'm learning from the Holy Spirit right as I type this to you. Let's see if I can make that same statement by the end of the post. ;)

This is a delicate something. On one hand, public chastening of a brother or sister is completely umbilical! At the same time, there is truth in your words that must be dealt with. Your questions are deserving of an answer!

To start, any Christian that tells you that they are not like other Christians is a liar or is in great need of increased Bible study. We are to be of one mind,... one spirit,... which is the focus upon the ways of God,... the desire to strive to be like the Lord Jesus Christ! We as humans, are still in touch with other humans and can understand the pains and trials of others because we are still in these fleshly bodies until God takes us home. This means that we are subject to imperfection and sin. God expects us to strive to be like Christ. He doesn't expect us to get there until He brings us there. We all fail in our own separate areas. Non of us are perfect. Is that an excuse? Not at all! All sin is to be hated! Are all Christian equally mature? That's another no. Wisdom and maturity are rewarded to God's children for being faithful and obedient in striving to be like His Holy example in Jesus Christ. If you see a Christian in sin, you see a Christian that has taken his eyes off of God for some period of time. Proverbs :12:26 says "The righteous is more excellent than the neighbor: but the way of the wicked seduceth them." Boy, is that ever the story of every Christians life! Sin might be rotten to the core but,... man oh man,... it usually comes in the best packages. She's not perfect. Her problems flex her to the point of breaking as well as anyones. To paraphrase Tony Evens, to have a problem that you can't handle is to have a Christ that you don't know. For some, that means that they don't know Christ at all. For others, that means that they don't really know the Christ that they are trusting in well enough. It's as dynamic as the relationship between any child and parent. "...the ones that oppress, threaten, and hate.",... to tell the truth, most of those are fools that lie to themselves (even about being a Christian) and regularly pick and choose from God's Word to suit themselves. The truth of the matter is that every time you read God's Word, it should both encourage you and reveal to you your failures. The mature Christian, growing in reliance upon God, realizes along with that growth that, God is Greater than he thought God was just a minute before. The more you know God, the more you know that you don't measure up,... the more you know that you need to study His ways to become more mature in Him. It is encourageable for all Christians to study to show themselves approved by God. Secondly, we can all understand that Microsoft, being the top dog, is a mass target of counterfeiting. The wrapping, packaging, fonts, design, and even the product all look the same. Only with close scrutiny can the truth of the origin be revealed. The public in general, does not know the difference. Well, God is the top of it all!!! I don't know the counterfeiter that would not counterfeit as one of His children. Some want personal gain. Some want to just look like they are the real thing without paying their dues (so to speak). They just like the atmosphere. It's an easy way to win in an argument to evoke the name of God. There's as many reasons for faking it as there are for lying. So, keep in mind that there are matters of maturity and authenticity to account for.

Getting directly to your questions of, "why aren't the rest of you Christians doing something about it? I thought wrong was wrong, no matter who was involved? Don't you think that you have a responsibility to correct those in your own camp prior to setting out to conquer others? You 'good' christians ascribe to the same basic set of beliefs as the 'bad' christians, and many people will see you as essentially one and the same.. so, it can only help you to do so. Has anyone ever hear the saying 'Healer, heal thyself'?", I need to tell you that matters are not always as simple as they seem. We may all talk the talk but, it's walking the walk that God commands of His children. I can boldly speak to you the truth of God and have no fear in answering your questions because I have first obeyed God and am walking the walk (though imperfect,... I need His forgiveness everyday.). The counterfeiters never do it or try and once they realize it's not all roses give up fast. The immature that are not under the good Godly guidance of mature Christians are walking just about everywhere they shouldn't be. These both love to talk big. Yet, we both know that they break easily. Now, where priorities are concerned, if she is my sister; God is the Father whom it is that holds the authority over her life. Does that absolve me of the obligation of chastening her? Not at all! It does, however, shape the method of my behavior in that regard. It is not usual that a sibling should spank the other. It is usual to give a word of reproof. Still, the wise pick their battles. As a salesman, I learned that if one thing is true, customers lie. It's important that you not strip them naked by revealing every lie they have told you. You'll lose the sale. Instead, you spend the greater part of your time listening. You'll make the sale if you can avoid proving yourself right every time. In some ways, dealing with a disobedient Christian is the same. Jesus, after he had risen, revealed himself in secret to some guys walking on the road. Though they were clearly wrong in their doubts, Jesus didn't just jump all over them and slam them. Sometimes, it is the best good of the foolish to experience the result of their foolishness. I think, for that person, this is it. There is a great opportunity to grow in the Lord through the shame that comes from wrong choices if it corrects the person's focus. Moreover, it also presents a poor sense of disunity to have you see us fuss at one another here. You may not be aware of it, but, you are doing God's work right now! Because you chose to ask the right question of why, it allows the opportunity for God to teach you the truth of His Word on the matter. You just dialed 1-800-Evangelist :D. Only God answers that many numbers. For her, you have also been a blessing. Perhaps, it may also help you to see this example. My fictional kid sister wets the bed frequently. As a habit, she drinks three glasses of water before bed each night. Though she has been admonished of this behavior by our father, she continues. One morning, as guests of my brother and I and my siblings awake from a slumber party, it is obvious that she has wet the sleeping bag. My sister, I will help clean her mess with the knowledge that our father will deal with her problem. The guests, I will reproov for the ridicule of my sister. The experience will no doubt be a memorable one for her and be instrumental in causing her to change her ways. As always, I will be available to her for guidance and caring if she will have it. The role of the Brother is not the role of the Father when He is so very present in her life. A brother can advise. A brother can suggest. A brother can encourage. These things can be done in public. For your family, admonishing is private and not to be shared. Proverbs 12:16 says "A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame."

Jesus Has The Answer For You Too,
ISDAMan

ISDAMan,

Excellent answer! But did it have to be so long? ;)

You do seem to have a better understanding of the tenets of your faith than most Christians I have met. I can respect and admire that, although I choose to remain a born-again Pagan. So no proselytizing - 'kay? :)


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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

Nice response by ISDMan, indeed!

As for your request, God asks you not to forget:

"No one who lights a lamp conceals it with a vessel or sets it under a bed; rather, he places it on a lampstand so that those who enter may see the light. For their is nothing hidden that will not become visible, and nothing secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care, then, how you hear. To anyone who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he seems to have will be taken away."

I am so confused. Are you saying that I oppress, threaten, and hate, or are you saying that I get upset to hear of other Christians who oppress, threaten and hate? I thought I knew what you were talking about til I read ISDA man's answer. ????????

To answer your question though, it seems that I am so busy trying to identify and curb my own sinful behavior or thoughts, that I don't feel it is appropriate to address others. I am not the judge. I feel that the best I could do would be to preach the word or be a witness to the word myself. I am not responsible for anyone else's choice. We all have our own lives, brains, problems, and need for God in our lives. There are plenty of really good preachers out there, and really devoted Holy Spirit filled Christians out there that are trying their best every day to walk that walk with God. That is more than enough to keep us busy. So how about applying the old capitalistic principle of competition? When it comes to seeking fellowship or council or a place to worship or a preacher to learn from, hopefully the best church gets the business you know? One of the big problems I see is that some Christians are playing follow the leader, and not truly discerning things for themselves. That is it seems like some Christians have more faith in their "leaders" than they do in Jesus. That's lazy Christianity to me. I don't buy it. And if I was a preacher, I hope that no one would let me spoon feed them anything. It's everyone's responsibility. The best you can do is try to counteract the sin with forgiveness and mercy and faith in the Lord. I also think that denying Jesus as Saviour because of the sins of Christians is lazy as well, and not a well thought out arguement, but an easy excuse.

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"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Lori, ISDAMan & TS,

One of the main problems I have with Christianity is the way it suppresses the female energy, making it IMO a very unbalanced and oppressive religion, especially for women. I liken Christians to poor, motherless children who are blind to their impoverished and motherless state. But that's what they choose for themselves, and I won't try to convert them to my ways. I only ask that they have the same respect for me and my choices. Fair enough?

Debating religious beliefs is one thing, but Christians step over the line when they tell me that my ways are "of the Devil" or that their religion is the "One True Religion" , and I am going to Hell on greased runners if I don't convert to their religion before it's too late (if I only had a nickel for every time I've heard that one!). Of course I realize that sentiment is part and parcel of the Christian religion, but it is a real turn-off to non-Christians. We've all heard it before, so please just skip it, okay?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Toss my two pennies into the fountain, I agree with Searcher.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I have no problem with Christianity, it's the Christians that annoy me. Not all of them, of course, but enough that when I hear "Christian" I prepare for the onslaught of 'Jesus tells you to do this' and 'God wants you to do that'-type statements. Like I haven't heard it all before!!

Who hasn't heard the "Word of God" in America nowadays? I can tell you that I've heard it so many darn times the words have no meaning to me anymore. Jesus? You mean that latino guy down the road? He pronounces his name "hey-soose", but yeah, I know Jesus! Nice guy, he always waves when I drive by.

The basis of Christianity lies in the fact that Jesus Christ is our Savior. It is also a fact that Christians are called as disciples of God to spread the word of God so that as many souls as possible may dwell with God for all eternity. It is THE MOST important calling that one can get during this lifetime and not something that can be ignored or skipped.

However, if I have ever expressed this in an un-Christianlike manner, I truly apologize to God and to anyone that I may have offended with any un-Christian behavior.

Peace be with all of us.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 21, 1999).]

True' -

Spreading the word is one thing, fine. Nagging and threatening with the word is not.

(I'm not trying to say that's what YOU do, I'm speaking in general terms here)

To Everyone,

I thank you all for such kind responses. Though many of you still have not responded to the world affairs post about something nice you have done, I have just seen one thing with my very own eyes. Again, I thank you. Thanx especially to FyreStar for posting such a valuable set of questions and tiassa for being so peaceable.

Searcher & SkyeBlue,

Have you ever thought to stop a while and find out what Jesus really does have to say to you? You admit, by your words, that there are Christians in the walk with God and some without. No doubt, it's the ones on the outskirts and the fakers that have given you a bad taste in your mouth for the Word of God. I think your statements acknowledges this. Why not take the time to ask someone that you can truly see IS walking with God? Why let someone else's bad tactics defeat you in so much that you experience an uncontrolled response of fear? Though you might not admit it, that's what it boils down to when you affirm that, "...it's the Christians that annoy me. Not all of them, of course, but enough that when I hear "Christian" I prepare for the onslaught of 'Jesus tells you to do this' and 'God wants you to do that'-type statements.". Let me tell you something in simple words. God does not call you to a religion. God calls you into a personal and loving relationship with Him. It's an amazing thought that we all know that our politicians are lying to us. Yet, we still vote. Many here, I'm sure, still stand behind Clinton though He has proved to be quick to lie and at least just as quick to forget the permanence, honor, duty, prestige, and glory of his marriage vows. The same thing and comparable can be said of many of our elected officials. I dare even say most. They set national policy amidst whores and heavy quantities of booze at so called social functions. The shake their fists in the wind as they pronounce values. Somehow, when it comes time to sign on the dotted line, their pins run out of ink. Yet, we still vote. Somehow, with the Word of God there's a difference. The flaws among His children seem in some way worse. How?!? It's because, even in the midst of the flaws, regarding the preaching of the Gospel by some, there is the soul of truth. Sometimes, the delivery sure does stink! I think it's normally a rare thing for there to be a need for a Christian to point his finger in the face of a sinner and yell, "You're Going To HELL!!!!!!" The best thing we can do is the same that Jesus did. He came serving and fellowshipping while telling the truth. If, one day, I see your toe nails and say, "Wow, your toe nails need help", do you think you'd feel offended? I'm sure you would. Now, if your regular manicurist happens to see your feet and says the same thing, it really wouldn't be so bad. Would it? After all, this person serves you. The most common way for people to come to know Christ is to first have a relationship with someone else that does. It's very easy for all Christians to forget this. This, however, does not preclude the Christian from presenting the word of God or even asking a person to yield their life to Christ. The here and now is important. There is a real sense of urgency about this. It would pain my heart dearly to know tomorrow that any of you did not live through the night and died without knowing the one person that would have prepared a good home for you to go to. Sad for you and yours as I would be, I would struggle on. God makes promises that I know and have seen Him keep. He'll do the same for you and even prove it if you spend some time with His good children. My mother always gave my friends juice and cookies when she gave them to me. The Bible says that even sinners that hang around with His children will profit for the sake that He profits His children. I'm willing to be your friend. You know my stance on God. You don't have to agree. Just watch me and see if my talk is my walk. I'll tell you now it is,... and only because I'm powered by Christ. None of it is my own straight. Let's be friends and you are free to watch me.

Christ is King,
ISDAMan

P.S.- More to follow about women. I think that even you two will like this. ;)

To Lori,

When a bank hires a new teller, they spend sparse little time teaching the ways of spotting a counterfeit bill. Instead, they drive home the points relevant to spotting the real ones. Keep your eyes off of the curb and squarely on the Savior who drives ahead of you. Though the day might be a fog of pea soup, if you focus in on Him, the curb might as well be a hundred miles away. This is how you judge the right from the wrong to even be able to preach the Gospel without guilt or a sense of not being able to do any better. Also, I would suggest that you read through the book of Proverbs two chapters at a time only. When you have read the chapters, go back and read them again,... and a third time. This is a tough book to grasp. Pray well before you start each night. I'm sure you may amend some of your statements and understand others better.

Christ & I Love you Sister,
ISDAMan

P.S.- Here's a website w/ whole Bibles to help you study. <a href="http://www.biblestudytools.net/" target="_blank">http://www.biblestudytools.net</a> I like the New American Standard (NAS) with Strong's Numbers. If you don't know what it is, you will when you get there. All you have to do is type in your search word or Chapter and Verse Ex: (Revelations 2, or Rev 2:8) It works great!

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 21, 1999).]

Anyone,

What does IMO mean? I'm out of the AOL loop.

God's Word will never return to Him void,
ISDAMan

I'm not an AOLer, but I believe it's chatspeak for "In My Opinion".

Thanks-A-Bunch Oxygen. It sounds good to me.

God uses sinners. Ask Abraham.
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 21, 1999).]

ISDAMan,

Oxygen is correct - IMO means "in my opinion"; IMHO means "in my humble opinion". (I don't think it has anything to do with AOL, either.)

So ISDAMan, tomorrow the Wheel of the Year brings us once again to Yule! Got any big plans? No? It's a very big day for celebrating the return of the God, who is reborn of the Virgin Goddess, don't you know? It's the reason for the season! Get my point yet? Keep reading.

By your statement, "Why not take the time to ask someone that you can truly see IS walking with God?", it seems that you are assuming that I have never been exposed to "real" Christians. Actually, I've been on this planet for quite some time, and I could hardly have missed the "opportunity" to talk with a number of "real" Christians. Since it is their profound belief that they will go to Hell if they don't at least try to convert every person they meet, it isn't possible to live on this planet without talking to some "real" Christians. My own mother is one of them.

How would you feel if, say, Pagans had a habit of trying to convert everyone they meet to Paganism? Wouldn't it be terribly annoying to you if Pagans were always talking to you about the God and Goddess, karma, chakras, meditation, Sabbats, Esbats, and so on? If you knew that talking to a Pagan would virtually guarantee that the conversation would eventually be steered in that direction, wouldn't you want to run the other way every time you saw one coming your way? Especially if they continually reminded you that you were on the wrong path, the God and Goddess were displeased with you and hurt by your choices in life, that you were in a serious state of karmic debt, blah, blah, blah...and it is their Pagan duty to point all of this out to you? And don't you want your children to be brought up to know the God and Goddess? Really think about what that would feel like, and maybe you'll get some sense of why non-Christians get extremely annoyed with Christians. Other religions don't do that!

I like you ISDAMan, but please try to understand the concept that it's okay to allow people their own beliefs without bashing them over the head with yours. Something about wiping the dust from your feet comes to mind...

By the way, Clinton is an idiot and I didn't vote for him either time (and yes, I did vote).



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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Uhhhh...well thanks for the advice, ISDA. What motivates the advice, I'm not sure, as I believe that you TOTALLY misunderstood what Fyrestar was saying. Still great advice none the less, though. And I would suggest that you do the same. :)?????

What statements are you referring to specifically, as I for the life of me have no idea what you're talking about??? You did not answer my question regarding what you were referring to in your answer to Skyblue. Would it surprise you to know that I read the Bible much much more often and intensely than you have just recommended that I do? Would it surprise you to know that I pray very intently at least once a day, but as well, I pray all day long. Do you realize that I'm a Holy Spirit filled Christian, and that I walk with God every day in every thing I do. I'm not saying that I never trip up. I do all the time, and so do you, and so does everyone else, but when I do, the Spirit tells me, and I can repent and atone. I'm just not sure where you're coming from, or what you are referring to. Please explain.

In regards to the question that was posed by Skye, there is a reason, and a very good one at that, why I separate myself from the horrible sins committed throughout history "in the name of God". I believe that it is one thing to not believe, to be unfamiliar with the word and the spirit, and to sin. I think that each of us has the responsibility to examine our lives, and the faith, and decide for ourselves in honesty what is right, and I know that many people do not do that. BUT, I think it is worse, and if I'm not mistaken the Bible denotes this as well, to be familiar with the word, and to be filled with the Spirit, and then to still commit sin. To use the name of God to sin, or to satisfy your own ego, is what I believe to be more detrimental to the faith than almost anything else. The reason that I know this, is partially at least, from talking to those out here, and hearing over and over and over, in a gazillion different circumstances, about how others do not believe in Jesus, because of the sins of Christians.

I can honestly say without a doubt that I could never find a way to justify killing someone in the name of God, or discriminating against someone in the name of God, or judging anyone in the name of God. These happen to be things that Christians have done, and are the very things that Fyre is referring to, that I happen to dislike, and separate myself from. I'm just being honest, about myself, and about the faith. That's why I think that humility is soooooo KEY to the faith. If you are truly humble, and honestly recognize how it is that God sees you and all others around you, then you could never ever justify condemning or judging anyone. That is something that I take very very seriously, and you will never ever find that I have done that to anyone out here. I believe that the closest I came is when I told Tab he must be evil incarnate, but I thought it was pretty clear that I was kidding, as the very notion of that being true is virtually impossible. You will never hear me say, "So and so, you should do this, this, and this, and you shouldn't do that, and if you do these things, then maybe you will be as good of a Christian as I am." You will never ever hear me say that to anyone, and I do not for a reason. The reason being that my Father told me it was wrong, and sinful and ego driven to do that to people. Did your Father tell you the same thing? He should have seeing as how our Fathers are one in the same. Many Christians ignore this particular sin that I'm referring to, and I really with they wouldn't, simply because it is the biggest turn off to non-believers that there is, and it's a turn off for a reason, and that reason is because it's wrong. All you have to do is take a look at history to know that.

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"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 22, 1999).]

IDAMan -

I too have had plenty of experience with Christians. My Grandmother is a devout Catholic. I love her dearly, and have literally sat at her feet and listened to her speak of the Glory of God. She is a great woman, and if there is a heaven, surely she is destined for it.

My problem with Christianity is that it just doesn't hold water for me. You seem to be under the impression I "fear" the word of God. This simply isn't the case. I have no fears of your God, because I really don't think he exists, at least not in the form you believe he does.

I follow Paganism, it makes sense to me. The cycles of the God & Goddess are demonstrated in the cycles of nature. I have but to open my eyes, just a little, and I can see their works all around me.

Today is God's birthday, it is Yule. His divine influence will bring about spring, as he matures the days will grow in length, until the June equinox, when he will marry the Goddess. (On my wedding anniversary, by coincidence!) This morning as I left for work, the shining moon-face of the Goddess shed her divine light down on me, it felt like a hug. Despite the cold I flung my arms outwards and bid a happy birthday to the Golden God, the Blue Father, the Sky Father, the God of the Beasts and Forests. I bid a happy Yule to the Silver Goddess, the Green Mother, Mother Nature, the Goddess of the Earth, Seas and Moon. They are the parents of my soul, and I adore them both.

Today is a Sabbat, a witches holiday. When I go home today, I will set up my altar, and cast a circle of power, and invite the God & Goddess to join me in celebration. I need not humble myself before them, or beg their forgiveness for any "sins" I may have committed. They know my feelings, they can see into my heart. They are a part of me, and upon death, my energy will merge with theirs, until time comes for me to walk the earth again. Then I will be recreated in a new body, to enjoy the Earth that my Mother and Father have created for me. My life is a testimony to their love, and I'm enjoying it quite a bit!

Blessed Be, IDAMan, may the God and Goddess smile upon you. :)

The lightbulb in my head just went off! I have a great example that may (I hope) explain what I am talking about regarding Christians, and those who can't stand them. :)

For example, I am really good friends with a lesbian. One of several reasons why she does not believe in (or rather vehemently hates) the Christian religion is because the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. So, through discussion I try to explain to her (per her request) why I think that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. And of course she tells me I'm full o' shit, and argues every point I make to the death. And yet, she remains my friend, and I remain hers, and we have the utmost respect for one another and care about each other as friends, and as fellow human beings. Ok, my point here is this...why doesn't that happen more often between Christians and non-believers? And I think that the answer to that is two-fold.

One reason is that when I am arguing that homosexuality is a sin, I never ever think or say that her sin is any greater than the bevy of sins that I have committed. I do not see her as a bad or evil person because she's not. She has no malicious intent, and even for those who do have malintent, I hate the sin, love the sinner, and do not consider these persons to be any worse or better in God's eyes than myself. Unfortunately, I do not perceive this perspective to be shared among many Christians. I mean, I just have to base my opinions on what I've seen in my life, but you just don't hear many, IF ANY, Christians say, "I have a very close friend who is a homosexual." My question is why not? Point being that there is quite a difference between explaining your beliefs to someone and condemning or judging them or looking down your nose at them AS IF you are somehow a better person. So in this respect, I blame the Christians for not being true to the word.

Another reason though, and I'm familiar with this because it happens to me all the time, is that because so many Christians have presented themselves to non-believers in the fashion that I just described, the non-believers assume that their behaviour towards them correctly represents the Christian faith. THAT IS NOT TRUE. And it is YOUR responsibility to realize this, and stop copping out on the faith because of the sins of Christians. It's a cop out. I know that you may not be doing this intentionally, but now that it's been brought to your attention that God did not "order up" or support in His word the killing or persecution or discrimination of people, then I would definately expect NOT to hear this arguement or justification of non-belief in the future. :D Yes, I'm trying to put that baby to bed once and for all, and for your benefit not my own. I think you all know that I could very well argue this til the cows come home, and probably will, but the arguement itself is keeping you from seeing the truth, and I don't want anything to get in your way.

What can I do to change the "church people"? How about taking a stand in my own life, and not giving in myself to their judgementalism? Like for example, not letting the turned up noses of fellow believers discourage me from a friendship with a gay person. That's what I do, and believe me, I defend my position with the church people right in their face, any time, any place. I hope this helps.

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"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

About women in the Word of God

Well, some of you have expressed the idea that women are oppressed and/or suppressed by Christianity. It is the obvious lack of a true relationship with the Father that leads one to take this stance. All Christians are the Body of Christ. Not a single one is better than or more valuable than any other. We may each have gifts of specialty in differing areas. That still makes no one better. When the question was asked as to why people think that God is a man, I replied, "People think that God is one sex or the other because of confusion. God made us in His likeness and made us male and female. He assigned some of His attributes to men and some to women. He is referred to in the masculine because those attributes as the head were given to men. Those attributes as a helper, the very same ones through which came our Savior, the Lord, Jesus Christ were given to women. Both are of God. God is Perfect. Neither aspect of attributes is less in value." You see, in all of creation there are duties to be fulfilled. The high minded would never be a port-o-potty cleaning man. Yet, the one with the servants heart would be blessed of the Lord in taking a task that others look down upon. The truth of the matter is that without the people that do seemingly base work, we would all be in a sad state of affairs. It is the base that holds up the rest. I will put it to you in the terms of hands and feet. Men are the hands. Women are the feet. From art to writing to tender touches to most anything, people are praised for the work of the hands. Rarely is there any recognition of the work of one's feet. The hands are always in the forefront. They are gloved with rabbit fur lined gloves and are the first to be greeted at parties or held up in times of good cheer. While the feet, as is usual, are crammed into some old funky shoes and gagged with itchy socks only to miss the festivities. I could go on in so many ways. I'm sure you get the picture. Still, let's look closer together. It is by the uplifting of the feet that the hands can find themselves in such positions of glory. Consider your feet. They are not strong. In fact, the most part of their strength stems from the legs. Yet, it is upon them that we, being massive in size, stand, walk, climb, and run. Not by strength but, by design. Feet are crafted as helpers. The take the heavy load and spread it out. Still, they need our care. Your hands will clip your toenails. It's not the other way around. Your hands will wash the feet. It's not the other way around. A stubbed toe will be cared for by hands. Feet that are loved will be anointed with powders and oils by hands. Hands will caress the feet taking care to even reach the delicate places between the toes. Only hands prepare the soaking baths to soothe the feet. It is not the other way around. Only a fool would not care for their own feet in this way. By morning, the feet are once again expected to fulfill their appointed duties. The tasks require them to get smelly and dirty. There is no less love. The wise will love them more for it. Practice as long and hard as you like. I dare anyone to walk ten miles on their hands. For all the strength, most would fail before the first 100 yards. However, loose you hands; your feet can do a nice, though far from complete, job of filling in. I thank the Lord that my hands and feet don't have the free will to revolt and claim the task of the other in jealousy. The same is true of people. The Bible tells us, as men, to love our wives as Christ loves the church (His Body). My goodness! Though He was the highest and the leader and gave instruction, He got down and washed the feet of His disciples. Still, He tasked them and sent them out in harsh conditions expecting them to return to Him in righteousness. He gave His life for us all. The example of Christ is to serve. A woman loved is a woman well served. A woman trusted is a woman with difficult tasks. To the prudent, to be the port-o-potty cleaning man is the position of honor. It is the scorn of the fool who has neither the wisdom or the value to take such to task. It is the position of Christianity to follow Christ. Christ cared for the widows,... He released the harlots,... He gave peace to the scorned,... He upheld the virtue of a woman's honor. All throughout the Word of God, good kings have their lineage tied to their mothers. Bad kings, to their fathers. Men carry the burden of leadership in sin. Adam was the greater of the fools between he and Eve. In closing, Christ knows the value of feet. So does Satan. The ways of the world pivot upon the goings of women. Ask any politician.

Just a little closer walk with Him,... :)
ISDAMan

ISDAMan,

Feet? What kind of women do you associate with? I am a woman, and damn proud of it. I will not be treated as any less than equal by any man. Feet indeed! (insert derisive snort here) So, women exist to serve man, and that's it? What kind of bigoted crap is that? I thought you had a head on your shoulders, ISDAMan, but I think I'm going to have to change my mind about you.

Your analogy leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It is not my job to get smelly and dirty and patiently await my man to finish with his socializing, bathe me and tell me I did a good job.

Walk on my hands? Sure, no prob'. Just give me the time I was allowed to learn how to walk on my feet, and I bet you a million bucks I'll be walking on my hands just as well or better than I walk on my feet. Just got to build up a little muscle, a few calluses, just like my feet and legs had to when I was a little one. In fact, I probably COULD walk 10 miles on my hands, if I built up the strength, whereas I canNOT walk more than about 2 miles on my feet, due to disability.

Let me tell you this - any man who thinks they can mold me into that passive wife/girlfriend type has another think coming!! I would (and have) tell that screwball EXACTLY what to do with his ideas, and I tell you it wouldn't be something nice.

I am a happily married woman, and you know what? We are equals, right straight down the line. Of course there are things that he does that I don't do, but we don't buy into that "woman's job" or "man's job" crap. I plunge toilets and move heavy furniture. He washes dishes and laundry. Sometimes I'm busy, so he plunges the toilet or moves the heavy stuff. Or he's busy, so I chip in with the laundry and dishes. Bottom line is, we work together, as equals, as a team. He is not my master, he is not my protector. He is my spouse, my best friend, my mate.

If you want to apply your "hands and feet" analogy to us, I suppose you could say each of us is both hand and foot. We each take the role neccessary at the moment, but then don't insist on keeping that role once the moment is past.

ISDA,

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but I think you are still playing into the woman as lesser approach. In other words, I don't see myself as a foot. The way that I would put it, and I think this is what you meant, is that we are equally important in this world and to God, we are simply different, and important in different ways. I think it's safe to say that men and women are generally different in many attributes. I think that God created us this way on purpose, and leading back to our discussion about sex, when a man and a woman come together as a married couple, they become "one" as in a perfect balance. Like magic! I think that the problems women face when confronted with their role, is that men throughout history have not respected or appreciated that role for how important it truly is. That would be a consequence of ego of course. But to be a mother and a wife and a nuturer, a teacher, a sensitive and emotional creature is very very important. Men just haven't happened to see it that way over the ages. So I guess that they finally convinced women of that, or women finally got fed up, and it seems the only way a woman can get a little respect nowadays is to take on the role of a man. In other words, instead of women burning their bras back in the sixties, maybe they should have burned their unappreciative, disrespectful, cheating, and abusive husbands butts! I guess we said "hey, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." Didn't help too much did it? I'd say that we're all just as miserable with our roles as they were then. We just don't have to get beat up every Thursday night after the hubby comes home drunk again from bowling league, or put up with the humiliation of knowing that he's doinking his secretary and there's nothing you can do about it.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

*whistle and cheering Skye*
You go girl!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

What about me? I don't get a "you go girl"? Oh that's right, I'm a Christian. Sorry, I forgot. ;)

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

More about women

:) I'll start with a smile to ease the tensions. SkyBlue, it's easy to see that you are less that enamored with me at this time. Let me break it down for you in no uncertain terms. There is no lesser or greater value to either sex. This was shown but, it's obvious that it needs to be said more clearly. Our president is obviously no better than anyone else. Yet because of his position he is given much respect and is in the center of so much glory. It's not because he is better or more deserving. Such is the example of the hands. However, there are people behind the scenes that never even get a bit of glory that, if they were not faithful in their jobs, He would fail always. Such is the example of the feet. I painted the picture of a position that is not the one of the glory but, all of the importance. In everything a man does, he should first consider the value to the woman in his life before himself. If he truly trusts her, weather she is taking care of the kids, balancing the books, or laying bricks, he can only expect the best from her and sees no reason not to trust her with the most difficult tasks. Unfortunately, those tasks are usually not the ones that get the spotlight. Lori, you are correct that men too often overlook the value of women. Again, I said, "The ways of the world pivot upon the goings of women." There is extreme power there in. There is extreme value as well. Along with those things, there comes extreme burden. With the man's power, he is also burdened. Again and again I have stated all over this website that real love serves. Once more, the Bible tells men to love their wives as Christ loves the church. The Bible also says that God created woman to help support the man. There is a closed loop of support and empowerment here. It's the view of the inner workings of there being one flesh. A woman that simply does what she is told is of no value as a helper. The Bible tells both men and women that their flesh is not their own but the property of the other. Hopefully, with this further information, you can better understand the post. There is obedience and concession to be had from both.

Trust and Obey, For there's no other way,
ISDAMan

P.S.- A man should no more beat his wife than he should beat himself. There is no excuse for this.

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 22, 1999).]

Regarding women in Christianity ... I offer this citation, and will forego additional commentary.

"Accordingly ... let us set our womenfolk on the road to goodness, by teaching them to be examples of lovable purity, to display real sincerity in their submissiveness, to prove the self-restraint of their tongues by observing silence, and to bestow equal affection, with no favoritism and as becomes holiness, upon all God-fearing persons." (Clement, 4th Bishop of Rome, to the Church at Corinth, ca. 96 CE)

thanx,
Tiassa

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"Religion isn't dead either. The AntiChrist will have access to computers, television, radio, and compact disc. If he walks among us already, the chances are that he has a walkman. I just hope it's not Christ himself, disillusioned after two thousand years in a cosmic sitting room full of magazines and cheeseplants, turned malignant and rotting in despair at the way his message has been perverted." (Robyn Hitchcock, 11/1987)

tiassa,

The Bible also says those very same things for men.

The whole truth and nothing but the truth,
ISDAMan

Yeah, Skye! You go!

ISDAMan - it is my feeling that the partners in a marriage/household must be considered joint heads of household. The major decisions need to be agreed upon by both partners before an action is taken that would affect both (hence the term, "partners").

My husband is not my "boss", any more than I'm his "boss", but he does have a great deal of influence on my behavior. The same can be said the other way around. We are equal, and we respect each other as equals. That's the way it should be. We both bring home the bacon, and we both fry it up in a pan.

The idea that a man should be head of household by virtue of what's hanging between his legs is just macho stupidity. The idea that a woman needs to be "taken care of" is just more of the same.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

ISDAMan ...

The Bible? Good. Now, where, though, does it say, "Husbands, submit to your wives." Where are men advised to keep silent?

We might also consider that Christianity followed a tradition different from its Judaic heritage. Christianity descends through the father; Judaism through the mother. Suddenly men and their authority are put into a new regard.

Tiassa

------------------
"Religion isn't dead either. The AntiChrist will have access to computers, television, radio, and compact disc. If he walks among us already, the chances are that he has a walkman. I just hope it's not Christ himself, disillusioned after two thousand years in a cosmic sitting room full of magazines and cheeseplants, turned malignant and rotting in despair at the way his message has been perverted." (Robyn Hitchcock, 11/1987)

ISDAMan -

Let me get this straight here, so what you are saying is that even though the woman gets stuck in the kitchen while hubby hobnobs out in the living room, she's appreciated for it, and that's all that matters? Well, that's just peachy, where do I buy one of those Grandma aprons, because that's the kind of treatment I want!! 'Cause, you know, as a woman, I couldn't possibly have any kind of intelligent thoughts to add to the conversation. I also couldn't possibly be expected to make business deals either, I suppose. Or perform mathematical equations beyond figuring which is cheaper, tomato or mushroom soup. Gosh, ISDAMan, please, tell me where I sign up!? I guess I better start walking 3 feet behind my husband, and never question his actions. I'll just have to hope he thinks of me when he makes decisions, and if he doesn't, I suppose I'll just give in gracefully.

(Man, I wish I knew how to draw that face with the rolling eyes right now.)

You don't seem to understand that women and men are equals - sure, there are some differences, but overall, equal.

Sorry to break the news to you, but women are just as capable of being in the limelight and taking support from thier husbands. You're right on one point, there should be no shame in supporting your spouse. I just think it's very wrong to shove the woman into the support role all the time. I think it's wrong to shove EITHER into that position all the time. It's give and take, 2 way street. Not "I'll be the giver, you be the taker, but then you take care of me, okay?". NO! Not in my lifetime will I accept that, never.

PS - Lori, you can have some of my cheers and whistles, I don't mind sharing! :)

SkyeBlue,

Thank you, don't mind if I do. This string makes me want to cuss. ;) But before I start on the gender role thing, I wanted to know if you understood what I was saying about judgement and sin? I tried to provide a similar explanation in the sex talk string, but you haven't responded to let me know if you accepted it or understood it. It's important to me that you understand because I see it as such a huge barrier to understanding the faith. I feel like if you're going to reject it, you should at least make sure of what it is you're rejecting exactly. Don't buy in to other's misinterpretations, but know the true message, and seek to understand it, and make your own decision. The only way I know to help you understand it is to try to explain it the best I can, and that is my only intent. Did you read that Tab thought I was "boasting" about my sexual history on the other string, or that God was somehow proud of it or whatever?? I just couldn't believe someone could take what I said that way. Very twighlight zone-ish. You understood my point right? I'm no better, no one is, and those who think they are, are just lying to themselves, and Jesus says that lying is a sin too. There's a story in the Gospel about some woman, I can't remember if she was a prostitute or adulteress or what she had done, but "the people" wanted to stone her. That was most likely the punishment for such a sin in the Old Testament. Jesus said ok, but only those who are without sin themselves can throw a stone. No stone throwers, what do you know? Things changed a lot after Jesus came. There was no forgiveness through Jesus before Jesus existed. See, the New Testament even took the place of many of the teachings of the Old, as well as every other belief that ever existed. Why? Because Jesus was the Son of God; the only one ever. It's the final word.

Now on to the gender thing. This is what I think the Bible is trying to say about men and women and their roles...

Did you know that apparently men and women each have six unique love needs that are all equally important?

A man needs:

trust
acceptance
appreciation
admiration
approval
encouragement

A woman needs:

caring
understanding
RESPECT
DEVOTION
validation
reassurance

JUST AS MEN NEED TO LEARN THE ART OF LISTENING TO FULFILL A WOMAN'S PRIMARY LOVE NEEDS, women need to learn the art of empowerment. When a woman enlists the support of a man, she empowers him to be all that he can be. A man feels empowered when he is trusted, accepted, admired, approved of, and encouraged.

Here's a little story, and I'd like to hear a response from all the men regarding whether or not they think it's true in a general and metaphorical sense...

Deep inside every man is a hero or a knight in shining armor. More than anything, he wants to succeed in serving and protecting the woman he loves. When he feels trusted, he is able to tap into this noble part of himself. He becomes more caring. When he doesn't feel trusted he loses some of his aliveness and engery, and after a while he can stop caring.

Imagine a knight in shining armor traveling through the countryside. Suddenly he hears a woman crying out in distress. In an instant he comes alive. Urging his horse to gallop, he races to her castle, where she is trapped by a dragon. The noble knight pulls out his sword and slays the dragon. As a result, he is lovingly received by the princess. He is invited to stay and they fall in love.

A month later, another dragon has attacked the castle. When the knight arrives, he pulls his sword to slay the dragon. Before he swings the princess calls out from the tower, "Don't use your sword, use your noose. It will work better." So he hesitantly follows her instructions, and kills the dragon with the noose.

A month later, another dragon attacks the castle. The knight takes his sword, the princess reminds him to take the noose, and he hesitates deciding which to use. The dragon breathes fire down his arm. Ouch! The princess calls from the tower, "Use the poison, the noose won't work". So he kills the dragon with the poison.

A month later while on a trip, the knight sees a dragon attacking another castle, and hears another woman in distress. His princess had reminded him to take the noose and the poison. As he rushes to the woman's call, his depression is lifted and he feels confident and alive. With this burst of renewed confidence, he throws off the noose and poison, and slays the dragon with his sword.

The knight in shining armor didn't return to his princess. He stayed in the new village and lived happily ever after. He eventually got married, but only after making sure that his new partner knew nothing about nooses or poisons.

This is taken directly out of the book "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus", by John Gray, PhD. I'm sure you've heard of this book, if not read it already; it's been a best-seller for years. This guy know what he's talking about. I also read "Venus And Mars in the Bedroom", and let me just reiterate when I say this guy knows what the hell he's talking about.

I think that men just NEED us to be this way so that they can feel good about themselves. I myself know without a doubt, just from everything I've seen in 32 years, that men's egos are like dinosaur eggs. Gigantic and fragile. Men are given a lot of responsibility in the Bible regarding their wives, and that's not a bad thing. Women are given just as much responsibility as they are the ones responsible for nuturing and raising a child and bringing men back to their own hearts. The thing is that men haven't lived up to their responsibilities (in a general sense, ok), but throughout history, men have oppressed, taken advantage of, belittled and abused. Almost every society throughout history. Did you know that Jesus said that men should love their wives as Jesus loves the church. When was the last time you saw THAT happen? Men are responsible for a woman's spiritual guidance as well apparently. That's a heavy weight to shoulder, but you know not one of those 80 or so men ever told me jack about Jesus. Wonder why?

And you know what I think? That ultimately a woman has the most power of all. I learned this through my own experience, as I sure could have looked in a church rather than a bar for a partner. Because the truth is that if a woman keeps her legs closed long enough, a man can do AMAZING things. And amazing things are exactly what he's supposed to be doing.



------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Searcher,

QUOTE:<HR>it is my feeling that the partners in a marriage/household must be considered joint heads of household. The major decisions need to be agreed upon by both partners before an action is taken that would affect both (hence the term, "partners").<HR>

When did I ever call it wrong to decide things together?

QUOTE:<HR>The idea that a man should be head of household by virtue of what's hanging between his legs is just macho stupidity. The idea that a woman needs to be "taken care of" is just more of the same.<HR>

That's your assumption that it has anything to do with physical attributes. The attributes God gave man and those He gave woman are not physical in nature. Incidentally, the word husband means to cultivate. A man cares for his wife because he loves her. You seem to keep missing over the part where I say that real love serves. A husband that loves his wife also serves her. This goes to you too SkyeBlue. When did I ever say that it was good for a man to relegate his wife to kitchen duty? A helper is not a slave. Did you skip over the part where I said, "A woman that simply does what she is told is of no value as a helper. The Bible tells both men and women that their flesh is not their own but the property of the other.", and, "In everything a man does, he should first consider the value to the woman in his life before himself."? Is it any good to her if she is stuck in the kitchen while hubby hobnobs out in the living room? Of course not! You two seem to be applying your pre-prescribed notions of what is Biblical about women. I say one thing and you bring claims of another. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, wouldn't one of the best ways to find out about your wife's needs are be to actually talk to her and spend time serving her? The good farmer will forego his own needs and desires for the sake of his passion. There is no boss in the relationship. There is a head. That head has a responsibility to see that the best good is bestowed upon his wife! Being the head doesn't mean that you get to bark orders and everyone is supposed to jump. Being the head means that you are responsible for the well being of all that happens in you charge and are the first to take any hard knocks that are coming your family's way. To be the head is to be the shield in a storm of flaming darts and a steady rock beneath the feet of those you care about to keep them high above the flood. Just because everyone around a man gives that man the glory, it doesn't mean that he needs to pay it any mind. The Christian man's concern is to set the standard for God in the home. The Bible is replete with warnings against high mindedness. Do many men have it? You bettcha they do! It's wrong. To love a woman is to serve her. Please explain to me how it is possible to serve someone and not take care of their needs. I'd like to know how it could be done. If you would not give of yourself to a person, even to the point of taking from yourself, then, you do not love that person fully. This is the love Christ has shown. It has nothing to do with the capability of being in the limelight. It has nothing to do with more or less value. The Bible makes it clear that if you want to be exalted by the Lord; you need to base yourself before other people. The first person that a man is to serve (base himself before) is the wife that he has sworn the oath of the covenant of marriage towards. The best support a woman can show a man is to do two things. First, open her heart to him. Men don't like to admit it but, we really do need to know that there is a woman that loves us no matter who else doesn't or whatever else is going on. It's more comfort to a man than you might know to just place his arms around her and know that she is there. He truly is incomplete without her. Second, she can help keep him focused on the ways of the Lord. Men, in general, are quick to fight, seek their own dominance, and parade their achievements. These things are contrary to God. What happens in the kitchen is anyone's work. Personally, I hate dishes and the fussing that comes with them. I tend to wash my own when I'm done and avoid the nonsense. I love to cook. I've always washed my own clothes and done my own ironing. It's no fun. It's just life. Both the man and the woman should be in the support role as much as they can. Again, I speak of matters of the heart and of affection. Cleaning and the such should be shared until you have children. As the grow you can give them responsibilities that can make them ready for the world. Please, understand that to help and to support is not to be a slave. If the help and support is first of the heart; it's easy to be a cheerful giver of the simple physical things of dishes and the like. Both partners should support the other whenever they can. The relationship will be better for it. Service breeds intimacy. The battle of the sexes is a battle of a lack of perfect love through right orientation to God.

Jude 2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 22, 1999).]

Very well put Lori. You are right, men and women are different, and a man's ego does need to be coddled. Because when the woman encourages her man, he can do just about anything. And Skyblue, men are superior to women in some respects, just like women are superior to men in some respects. When I lifted weights, I got to the point where I could box-squat 565 pounds. If I would have kept lifting for another year or two, I could have achieved 700 or more, all without any steroids. Now, I don't care how much lifting a woman does, she will never be as strong as a man. So in a very basic neanderthal sort of way, men are different and superior. Now don't get your feathers ruffled, because women are superior to men in things too. For instance, the ability to read people (which is a pretty powerful tool) seems to be more prevailent in women. The ability to bring joy or warmth to a family is a trait which women enjoy having an upper hand at. Or the ability to milk a baby; I mean, we don't have teits, so that would be impossible. We're just different, and are superior in different areas and inferior in different areas. Women like shoes for example. I have two pairs and that's it. I know girls who have entire closets full of shoes. That's a gross generality I know, but you just don't see guys doing that.

Plus, no woman would survive against men in a college or professional level football game or hockey game. Why are you so angry at us? We can't help our aggressiveness; it's called TESTOSTERONE. We have many many many times the amount of that than you do, so give us a BREAK!!! My balls are the size of grapefruit because of the dsb's. Just kidding. It has been about 2 and a half years since I've had any (soon about to change).

Besides, in the bible it says, "For from the very first he made man and woman to be joined together permanently in marriage; therefore a man is to leave his father and mother, and he and his wife are united so that they are no longer two, but one. And no man may separate what God has joined together."

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There is no such thing as subjective truth.

bah,

Woah, where did you get the idea I am angry at men? I'm annoyed with ISDAMan's sexist comments, but I love men - individually and overall.

Of course men and women are different, I have never said we were the same. I am quite aware of the male testosterone levels. I do give men a break - TRUST ME! What I am saying is that we are EQUAL, and there is no reason to say that women need the protection and service of ther men.

Sure, there's some biological chores that only women can perform. And it's much tougher for a woman to pee standing up. But in day to day life, overall, there is no reason why I should expect men to treat me any different than they treat eachother. Whether he is my husband, boss, subordinate, co-worker, or checker at the supermarket, I expect to be treated as a HUMAN, not as a WOMAN.

I don't need to be coddled, or served in any way. I don't need to be protected. I don't need anyone to open my doors for me. Now, if a man does hold a door for me, I thank him, that's just politeness. And if I'm going through a door, I tend to hold it for whomever is behind me, male or female. That's polite. What annoys me is men that will refuse to walk through a door that I am holding, or one that gets annoyed when I don't wait at the door for him to open it for me. That's not polite, at least not in my book.

Basically, for me, it boils down to this: People are people. Period. I try to avoid giant gender-based stereotypes, because they cause trouble. I don't expect every man I meet to have this inflated, fragile ego. I don't expect every woman I meet to be good at reading people. I treat people differently depending on who they are, not what sex they are. There are plenty of women that have big fat fragile egos, and plenty of men that are great at reading people.

ISDAMan:

A head of the family is responsible for seeing to the good of his wife? What if the woman is the head of the family? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. What makes a man more suitable for being the head of a family than the woman? His ability to lift heavy objects? His ability to write his name in urine in the snow? That hair growing on his back?

Hello ISDMan,

It might interest you to know that I understood your post in its entirety. Well said.

I also understand the seriousness of the earthly issue of discrimination of any kind.

It should be of great comfort to us all, however, that such issues are not present within God's kindgdom and that we are all equal in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Peace be with all of us.

truestory,

You are more of a heart warmer and a comfort than you know. It's so very good to have Godly support here. Ya know what? If you think about it, since there's a group of Christians coming together in Christ, this is a Church. I just thought about that. :D Jesus is here whenever His children come together in His name.
<CENTER> :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)</CENTER>

I also need to know if you have any prayer requests. You can e-mail me as long a list as you like.

Your Brother In Christ,
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 23, 1999).]

ISDAMan,

SkyeBlue asks a legitimate question, and I am also interested in your answer. What makes the man "head" of the household? Shouldn't a married or cohabitating couple (now there's another can of worms!!) be considered joint heads of household? If not, why not? I'm pretty certain that the only answer you've got up your sleeve is "Because God says so, and I'm not in the habit of questioning God!" But that's not really an answer as far as I'm concerned - it's only a cop-out for people who don't want to have to think for themselves. I'd like a real answer, if you have one.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Bah,

As for your generalities, I just went in the bedroom to count pairs of shoes - including the shoes on our feet, I own 5 pairs of shoes and my husband owns 8 pairs of shoes. So much for that generality!

Yes, my husband has much more testosterone and brute strength than I do, but that doesn't qualify him to be my boss. I remember a girl in high school who could out-arm wrestle any guy she challenged. Assuming she's now married to a man, does that qualify her as head of household in her home?

Yes, PEOPLE have different areas where they excel - that doesn't mean that one adult should have dominion over the other adult in the household!! Do you think that if my husband disappeared from the face of the earth tomorrow, the mortgage company wouldn't come after me for the house payments? You bet they would! Why? Because I am equally responsible for making those payments - that's why!! The same goes for all of our bills. So if I'm equally responsible for paying the household bills, why should I not be considered as head of household equally with my husband? Does anyone have a real answer?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Bah--

* "So in a very basic neanderthal sort of way, men are different and superior." (12/22)

And yes, I caught all that about 700 lbs, and so forth. I'm wondering ... is PHYSICAL strength the only measure of superiority? And if we're looking at phyisical strength as a measure of the superiority of the genders, as regards Christianity's view of women, where in the world does God say that the ability to kill and maim in battle, or to wrestle a bush from its roots, or to knock down a wall, or to lift a heavy stone ... where does God say this creates a condition of "superiority"?

--Tiassa

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

Searcher -

LOL, unfortunately I do fall into the shoe generality. Though I might point out my hubby has quite a few pairs of shoes too. I'd guess he has about 10, I probably own about 15 pairs. (blush) I've been found out!

But we don't fall into bah's brute strength generality. The two of us are almost equally matched. When we arm wrestle, right handed matches he wins, left handed ones I win (we're both right handed).

So there you go, bah, generalities are inaccurate at best, insulting and dangerous at worst. At least that's my opinion.

SkyeBlue,

Again, I tell you that the attributes of Himself that God has bestowed upon humans are not physical and you still bring it back to the physical.

<CENTER><TABLE WIDTH="500"><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:</FONT><HR><FONT SIZE="2">A head of the family is responsible for seeing to the good of his wife? What if the woman is the head of the family? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. What makes a man more suitable for being the head of a family than the woman? His ability to lift heavy objects? His ability to write his name in urine in the snow? That hair growing on his back?</FONT><HR></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

By His choosing, and I'm not qualified to discern His reasoning, He loaded the man up with things that drive him to make order. He loaded the woman up with things that drive her to maintain order. They're two peas in a pod. A good woman gives a man direction. Two ax heads and no handle will produce few logs for the fire. The same is true of two handles and no head. You tell me which part of the ax is better,... the head or the handle? They are made to be joined and work together. Though the man may be the head, they are both called to follow the direction of the one wielding the ax. The importance is whose hands will you place yourself in? Will it be God's? I can only pray that it will be someday.

I find is astonishing that to respect a woman and to entreat her with honor because she is a woman and a gift from God is seen as a disservice to women these days. No matter what you or anyone says, I will continue to see her as more valuable than the finest gold or the richest treasure. Her words to him are better than food and more sustaining than water. With God's woman as his bride, a man can stand in the fiercest storm. She is God's personal and hand picked representative to him. It is a shame not to honor her with service. On one hand you are fed up with the perception of a man's high mindedness. On the opposing hand you are against his service. Would you rather that he just leave you altogether alone?

<CENTER><TABLE WIDTH="500"><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:</FONT><HR><FONT SIZE="2">I don't need to be coddled, or served in any way. I don't need to be protected. I don't need anyone to open my doors for me. Now, if a man does hold a door for me, I thank him, that's just politeness. And if I'm going through a door, I tend to hold it for whomever is behind me, male or female. That's polite. What annoys me is men that will refuse to walk through a door that I am holding, or one that gets annoyed when I don't wait at the door for him to open it for me. That's not polite, at least not in my book.</FONT><HR></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

I I I The Bible makes it clear that the I's don't have it. When you boil it down, one of the biggest problems that most people have with God's Word is that there is no assertion of self. Rather, praise be to God. Glory to the Father. Give to him that takes from you. Be kind to you enemies. Repay evil with good. Show mercy. Have pity on the poor. Take strangers unto yourself. Give without expecting return. And probably the worst thing of all, Love those that Hate you. What you display is a focus upon yourself. It is oh so common for people to think that just because one person got one thing and they got another that the other person's thing is better or that the other person is given better position. Someone with the Biblical focus of servanthood, be they man or woman, would know that it is a gift just to be able to serve one so high as God. There are greater rewards, in this life and in Heaven, for the Christian, than could ever be found through assertion of self. Every child of God can attest to this. In your quest for self assertion, you find no peace from your phantom enemy. In servanthood, there is more peace than you know what to do with.

Proverbs 3:1-3 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
ISDAMan

P.S.- "Because God Says So!", is actually a better answer. When my mother said, "Because I say so!", I learned that it was better not to question her. ;) She had my best good in mind.

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 23, 1999).]

ISDAMan,

We're not talking about an ax - we're talking about two partners in a marriage. Put yourself in a woman's place for just a moment, and imagine that men are treated as women have been treated for years. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that it was Adam who ate the apple and convinced Eve to do the same, so now the punishments are reversed. Now men are under the dominion of their wives.

Imagine, for example, that you've just walked onto a car lot with your wife, and the saleswoman walks up to the two of you; ignoring you, she turns to your wife, puts her hand out to shake your wife's hand and says, "Hi, I'm Ann. Is there anything I can help you find today, ma'am?" You wonder if you've just become invisible, as they begin discussing the technical aspects of the various cars on the lot. When it comes time to fill out the paperwork, your wife's information is what they want on top; your's is kind of an afterthought. [Nevermind the fact that the car is supposed to be for you - you're lucky you're even getting a car. What a wonderful wife she is to you!! The fact that you bring home the bigger paycheck is also beside the point. She's "head of the household", after all. She doesn't have to let you work outside the home - you're so lucky to have her!]

A few weeks later, you receive a survey form in the mail from the dealership, asking about how satisfied you are with the car, how the sales experience was and so on. Oh, did I say that YOU got the survey form - pardon me, it was only addressed to your wife, although your name was on the registration and financing paperwork as well. Congratulations - you've just become a non-entity, all because of the type of plumbing you were born with!

ISDAMan - this is typical of what women have to put up with every day, even in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!! And we have it good compared to many other countries! Is this what you mean by respecting a woman and entreating her with honor? Maybe you should try observing these types of situations a little more closely, and put yourself in the woman's place as you observe. How would you feel being treated this way by salespeople and others, time and time again, day after day? Then imagine yourself being considered as a second class citizen by every Christian you meet, particularly Christian men - how would you feel being told that your spouse is the "head of the household", and effectively you don't really count for much, except maybe as a "helper"?

I'd really like to hear your honest opinion - would you want to live your whole life through being treated this way? Do you realize the kind of treatment you're asking us to put up with?



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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

SkyBlue,


But in day to day life, overall, there is no reason why I should expect men to treat me any different than they treat eachother

Trust me You don't want me to treat you like one of the guys! Allthough I think i know what you are getting at, and yes everyone deserves respect. I just belive that this whole equality thing has gotten out of hand. Women want equal rights, but I have seen the same women want to be treated differently when she assults her husband. Feminist talk about double standards, but fail to realizes thier own double standards.

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My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

Searcher,

Do you think that I come here for my health? I am serving God by serving you in presenting to you His truth. Would I serve you if I thought that you of less worth serving? Wouldn't I go look for a man to serve? I tell you,... and I tell you,... and I tell you. Still, you won't hear it. Women are of no less value than a man. What someone else does is of no regard to me. I'm telling you what God says people should do! I have the inside track on car dealers. I've been one. Let me tell you. The guys that do what you spoke of are the very same guys that pull every underhanded trick in the book against even others on their sales team. You were just one of many people that snake struck that day. That type of man regards no one. Even more, so what if he thinks less of you! Are you really going to regard the thoughts of a base a foolish man and let them anger you? I have waited on KKK members. They didn't want me. They tried to drive me away. I was there anyway. I come here. You all insult the Father that I love so dearly. I come anyway. God empowers His children to have peace in all situations. There is anger and frustration in you that can never be humanly defeated. You are struggling against sin itself! When people treat you wrongly, it is out of their sin. You have no power to change their hearts. The only one you can effect is you. Still, how deep can a person dig into themselves and still find goodness? You are a testimony to the fact that no man is self-sufficient. You must trust in the Lord Jesus Christ or you will continue in your fruitless war. Where as you may go into everyday places and find yourself expecting disrespect and strife, the child of God can come into an atheist convention such as this and expect an opportunity to do good. I'll say it again. Whatever anyone else does to you is irrelevant! As Christ was on the cross, He continued in forgiveness and the forgiveness of sins as He took one of the thieves home with him. His situation had no power over His ability to stay a faithful servant. Christ was the chief of all HELPERS!!!!!! I can wish for no more than to be a helper like Him. How I pray to God that you could see this for your life as well. You keep looking at what you think you're missing and you'll never get to enjoy what you have. It is the simple ploy of Satan to always keep a person wanting more. This is true in every area of life. God calls you to give it all up. He promises to give you better than you even knew you wanted. I care for you. I'll say it now. I love you. I mean you no disrespect. You are rebellious to God. You can shake your fist at Him all you want. You can deny all the truth He brings to you through those that are faithful to Him until you pop. You will never gain any ground against Him. You seek to validate your ways. Yet, the Bible makes it clear that your sin and wrath will only bring you destruction. You flail yourself against things that are greater than all men. What has it ever gained you but more anger? In fact, the God that you are so very angry at, is a God that you do not even know. His Word is full of promises of how He will prosper you. Yet, you will have nothing to do with him. He took the time to tell us of how a woman who was faithful as a servant saved all of the Jews from a evil decree of death. God has set woman in the role of profit. Still, she, even as a profit, was a servant. He only gives His gifts to the low. I know what it is to be discriminated against. Have you ever been a young Black male? Regardless of how others present themselves to you, you have an obligation in how you will present yourself to the world. My mother did not raise a victim!!!! There is never a good time for a pity party. I was not taught to compare myself to others to see if my life was suitable even though my mother was not a Godly woman when I was a child. God says to compare yourself to Him. He is the perfect measure! Your neighbor is not. You husband is not. No man is. Why do you look so vehemently at what they have and/or present themselves as of having? Responsibility and maturity are gained through service. If by their actions they show that they don't have it, fine! What does that have to do with you getting yours? The Bible says that if you are responsible with little; you will be given more. However, if you are not. You cannot be trusted with anything more. You want freedom? You want success? You want a sense of worth? I have one word for you --- Serve! What you give God will repay in spades. That truth does not recognize sex. If you won't trust God with your life, your service, how do you expect Him to show you His Glory? What else can I tell you that I have not already? God Loves you and is actively seeking to show you this. Fight your war if you will. You'll never win. Never! The foe you thing you see is a mirage. The real foe is sin. How can you deal with it in everyone that you meet? God is begging to give you power over sin,... but you won't have it. I'm sorry for the pain you suffer. God would rather you not have it.

Peace, be still,... ( Insert Life Here :) )
ISDAMan

Searcher,

There's a bit more of my life experiences that I think you might benefit from. When I waited on (Served) those KKK people, who was the beneficiary of that service? I'll tell you. It was me. I gained temperance. I gained patience. I gained a sorrowful heart, through greater understanding of their ignorance, for the children they would lead astray. I gained the first hand knowledge that they feared me though I came to serve them. I gained the ability to weather the storm. I gained the admiration of others around me. They went off the same fools they came in. That's why the Bible says to bless those that curse you.

When I was in boot camp, I'm not bragging, I was not one to cry and break down. Many others around me were. I credit this to my agonizing childhood. The strife of boot camp, though different, was common to me. For most, they had never faced having people so much larger in size in their faces and threatening them with bodily harm. They had not known real stress. I detested the way that some would break down and lose all dignity and discipline about themselves. Well, one day in the Second Phase of boot camp, there are three, I was running the confidence course. It's a long series of harsh obstacles meant to be overcome without the assistance another person. On one of the last obstacles of my first trip through, a huge callas in my left palm ripped off. I had a hole near the size of a silver dollar in my hand. Well, never being one to complain and considering my cause valid, I tried to take this issue to my Drill Instructor. My D.I., never call one that in person, having seen with his own eyes, turned his back on me and told me not to talk to him. I tried again. He re-affirmed that it was best for me to keep my mouth shut. I thought this was cruel. How could he? I had never slacked off before. I wasn't one of the criers. I was not with those sneaking food from the chow hall. When others did what was needed to get by, I had to be kicked off of the pull-up bars. I followed orders to the letter. I obeyed all the little nuances and never made a spectacle of myself. I could take apart my weapon and put it back together faster that anyone in the company. My foot locker was always locked. I was regularly entrusted with important tasks. I just knew that I deserved to have my hand seen because I had never had a history as one of the slackers. I could have gone over to the coreman on my own and been given a break. However, my D.I.'s would have made me pay later. I still had one obstacle to go and the whole thing to run another time through again before lunch. The last obstacle and the next few in the beginning, I made with not much problem (much less than I expected). Then, there came the rope swing. There's something like a twelve foot ditch full of mud and water. The only way to cross is by jumping out and catching a fat twine rope to swing across. Needless to say, coarse threads stick out all over this thing. The flesh underneath of the skin of my left hand is exposed and increasing in pain. I didn't guess that the rope would help it any. Now, if I were to fall in the mud, I'd have to go through it again and again until I got it right. I had never fallen in the mud on any obstacle before. I felt like I'd be just like those wimps that I'd see fall into the mud on a regular basis if I ever fell in. Now, I know my ego was high. Still, I couldn't face falling in the mud and I had no faith that I could cross with one hand. After all, all these other guys going over had two hands and all I had was one. It wasn't fair. Some of them didn't even make it with their two hands. It just wasn't fair. With D.I.'s breathing down my neck and my left hand clinched tightly shut to keep as much water out as possible, I jumped out to the rope and swung across with one hand. I was amazed. I just knew that I would end up in the mud. I was never even close to falling. Like most worries, the thing worried about never even came to pass. Doing it with one hand was easy. My problem was my mind set. After that, the whole course became a breeze. I even tackled other ropes with my left hand. After the days tanning, I was allowed to receive treatment and was better for it. Because my D.I. had the wisdom to not regard my good history, I gained strength through strife. You never know what you can do until you can do it in an adverse situation. What the others have and you don't is of no matter. Yield to the authority and go with what you've got. You'll be a blessing to yourself and those around you.

And Jesus wept,
ISDAMan

ISDAMan,
I'm staying out of this little debate..as it just pisses me off.
However, what I would like to say is your story...it was moving. Hey, I'm being sincere... believe it or not. A person can do wonders if they put their mind to it ;)

ISDAMan,

This isn't about a "pity party" - this is about righting the wrongs of the world, and you don't do it by going along with the program and keeping your mouth shut. Things don't just magically change without an impetus of some sort.

Your Bible says, in Ephesians 6:5, "Servants be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ". Where would young Black men be today, if they quietly followed the advice in your Bible? Where would young Black men be today if not for the Rosa Lee Parks of the world? She had to violate a city law and suffer being arrested in order to change that unjust law. My admiration goes to those who risked life and liberty to bring about needed changes - not to those who suffered in silence, reading their Bibles and hoping for change. Hope is for the weak!

By the way, I can't really relate to your boot camp story. You see, I was never let into the military - I was too short, and they refused to waive the height requirement. Somehow, if I had been 2" taller, I would have been qualified to be in the Army. I would have needed another 4" to make in in the Air Force - more arbitrary (not to mention, discriminatory) rules!!



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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

666-


Originally posted by 666:
SkyBlue,

Trust me You don't want me to treat you like one of the guys! Allthough I think i know what you are getting at, and yes everyone deserves respect. I just belive that this whole equality thing has gotten out of hand. Women want equal rights, but I have seen the same women want to be treated differently when she assults her husband. Feminist talk about double standards, but fail to realizes thier own double standards.



I hope you aren't lumping me in with these "feminists" you're talking about!? When I say equal, I MEAN equal. If I'm arguing with my husband, and I'm stupid enough to punch his lights out, I expect to be arrested for it. There are "no tolerance" laws for that kind of thing. It is inexcusable to react with violence, towards anyone, male or female.

And trust me 666, I DO get treated like all the guys, at least amongst my friends. They are comfortable telling dirty jokes, scratching their balls, and watching football with me. I am perfectly capable of holding my own, I know some jokes that would turn your hair white, my friend, and I used to be 'bloody knuckle' champion in our little group. I am just as rude and just as rough-and-tumble as they are, when I want to be. I can hold just as much beer, have a great poker face, can belch louder than any of them and I laugh my ass off with these guys. I love my guys, I have a great group I spend a lot of time with, and I know I am treated the SAME way they treat eachother. And I appreciate it, that's why I spend so much time with them. Granted, they do make comments all the time about how rare it is to have a "fem" they can hang with and not have to worry about being delicate or being too rude, but I think a lot of women shy away from that 'manly' role because they think it will diminish thir femininity. I am also perfectly capable of donning a dress and makeup and mincing along on high heels, playing arm decoration for my hubby. Which is fun, but certainally not me - it's an act. My 'default' personality is much more comfotable sitting on a couch, swigging a beer and throwing popcorn at the TV, right along with all the other men, I mean HUmans, that I hang around with.

Wow, sorry, didn't mean to ramble so much, but you see what I mean, right? :)

ISDAMan - (your turn!)

Okay, now I think we're getting our wires crossed a little bit, I'm not saying it's WRONG for a man to treat his wife like gold. Not at all. I think both husband AND wife should treat eachother like gold. They have, after all, chosen to spend the rest of their lives together. From that point on, there is nobody on earth that is more available to offer support, love, understanding, an ear to bend, all that good stuff. What I'm objecting to is your insistence that the man is the head and the woman is the...what? Feet?...of the relationship. Yah, yah, yah, feet are necessary, we know that, but why MUST it be the woman? Surely a man deserves to be served and taken care of by his wife too? Surely the wife is responsible to carry her half of the weight of the marriage? We are not axes and handles, we are human beings. We are much more flexible and multi-purpose than an axe and a handle. Why can't you see that??

Now,"Cause God said so" won't make it with me, buster, I don't believe in your God. My God and Goddess rule in tandem, equals. THAT is the example I will follow, not your sexist-if-well-meaning God. Reminds me of the "seperate but equal" crap they used to try on black people. Bullshit, all the way down the line. People are people, and we are all equals, no matter color, race, sexual preference, gender, wealth... At least that's the way I see them, I don't treat anyone better or worse than anyone else, at least until I get to know them on a personal level.

I think where the insult comes in is when men assume women REQUIRE some kind of special treatment. Like my example before - am I expected to stand and wait for my man to catch up with me so he can hold my door open for me? What's the point in that? So he can feel good that he's treating me well? No thanks, I'd rather just open the door myself and be done with it. If that makes him feel bad, it's because of an artificial standard he's trying to hold himself to. I will respect a man that walks through a door I am holding for him, I will not respect a man that does not. It insults me when I am forced into a pathetic role like that. Am I so weak I cannot budge a door by myself? Am I tainted, so if I open the door a man must not walk through it? It's a pile of bull crap, and I won't deal with it. Of course this is just one example, but it's one that bugs me constantly.

I like Searcher's analogy with the car. I cannot tell you how many times I have had this problem. Going to a mechanic - I know a hell of a lot more about auto's than my hubby does. Yet when I go to the mechanic, invariably I am told something is broken on the car that is not. My hubby goes back and what do you know, the car is fine. I had a mechanic just recently try to tell me my CV boots need replacing. He was gambling on the fact that since I'm a fem, I probably never get down on the ground and look under my car, much less even know WHAT or where a CV boot was or how to tell if they need replacing. Imagine his shock when I dropped to the ground right there, inspected my boots and popped right back up, demanding to see his supervisor. There was absolutely nothing wrong with them, not even the beginnings of wear showing. Needless to say, I have found a new mechanic, and he's an honest one. (They do exist, really!) I know, that guy was a slimebag, but the reason he tried that trick on me was because I'm female. My husband took that same car to him about 3 weeks previous, and he didn't try that crap with him, though it probably would have worked on him.

This is relevant to this thread because I think attitudes such as yours only fuel this kind of thing. 'Serving' a woman, in the way you are describing it, is a form of diminishment. It implies that a woman needs that kind of service. Simply put, we don't. It's nice to recieve it, but only in the context that male and female are equal, and the treatment comes from respect and love, not from duty or tradition. I coddle and serve my husband just as much as he coddles and serves me. Not because we need it in a survival sense, but because we love eachother and want to make things nice for eachother.

Hmmm...it's like I'm not even part of the conversation. What's wrong Skye? Can't you find an arguement for "Venutians and Martians"? 666, Tiassa, I know you're out here, and I'd appreciate a response to my post, if it's not too much trouble. :)

You may ALL also want to consider the fact that you are talking about an IDEAL state of existence here, barring all sin. Sin throws everything out of balance. The whole point of part of my previous post was to remind that for a woman to be able to "perfectly" submit to a man, it is intended that the man "perfectly" love his wife. So in today's society, do we see any diversion from this scenario? Well duh, yes we do. And excuse me, but you girls seem to be missing a huge point here, and that is that no one is saying a man is better, or stronger, or more capable of slaying a dragon than a woman. But here is something that a man can NOT do....give birth to and be a mother to a child. There is a special bond between a mother and child that a man can never have. Also, I believe that a woman's threshhold for pain is greater than a man's, so in that sense, and sometimes in a sense of brut strenth, and standing for conviction, a woman is or can be stronger. No one, especially me who can get in a man's face like there's no such thing as death, will argue that women are not strong. Hey, look at all the crap we've had to take off men, and we're still hanging in there just fine. :) Will somebody talk to me please?

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"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Lori,

I'll speak for myself here - I'm not ignoring you intentionally. Incredibly, at this point my argument is not with you! :eek:

But you have made some statements in this thread that I can't totally agree with either, like that "submission" one - sorry, I don't submit, even in a perfect world!! Submission is for dogs. I am a person, with a perfectly good mind of my own, thanks, and I don't need anyone else to make my decisions for me!

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Hey, googly eyes!! How'd you do that? Maybe it's the interpretation of what Jesus meant by submit is what I'm trying to talk about. I think that you may want to take it to mean something unrealistic or that doesn't make sense based upon what we all obviously know to be true about women. I'm just trying to point out that there are a bevy of different perspectives that a statment like "wifes submit to their husbands" could foster. I just think that we all need to be honest and realistic about what that really is supposed to mean. You want to make it something bad, but I am sure that I'm just as independent and headstrong as you are, and I don't see it that way at all. Just try to make sure that you're not taking the perspective of making a lot of things irreconcilable to the word of God. For example, the way I interpret that message has more to do with what's known to be true about men and women and their psychological needs in relationships as proven by lots of study and research. That way, the Bible is NOT irreconcilable to me, it makes a lot of sense.

Merry Christmas everybody! I hope that all your wishes come true, and that you have peace in the new year!

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Sky,

No I don't lump you in with feminist. I would like to take you up on how much you can hold! :)

I should have been a little clear on what I ment. most women do not want to be treated like "one of the guys". For instance, if I walked up to most women I know and said "hey b*tch", which I tend to say to most male friends, they wouldn't like it and would proboly be pissed.

Lori,

I don't think a man's ego is large and fragile. When you look at the situation that you posted it is about the fact that help was asked for then he is told what to do. If you need help you obviously don't know what to do, so she should have shut her mouth and let him take care of it. I run into this type of situation every day when I have to feild a tech suport call. People can't seem to follow directions and tend to do it the way they want to. Forgeting the fact that I may know why it needs to be done another way. Why eles would they call!?

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My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 24, 1999).]

ISDMan,

Thanks once again for your kind words. I hope that you and yours are having the most blessed Christmas ever!!!

As for my prayer requests, thank you, they are for all of us, though:

I pray that all souls be filled with the Spirit of Jesus Christ so that they may walk eternally with God in the Holy Spirit.

I pray that noone here on earth ever want for the necessities of food, shelter, clothing and good health while they walk here, on this earth.

I pray that our worldly differences be resolved so that we may enter into a state of purity of heart in preparation for our meeting with our Lord.

I thank God for the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and I pray for these things in the Spirit of Christ, Our Lord, Amen.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 25, 1999).]

666-

;) How much beer can a beer-chug chug, if a beer-chug could chug beer? LOL

666, if I knew you called all your other buddies 'bitch', I would have no problem at all if you called me the same. Amongst my buddies, "f*ck-nuts" is the appropriate greeting. ;)

Lori--

I'll sound off here because, while it's all fair questions, I have what I hope will be unique answers.

First, let me say that I largely dismiss John Gray, PhD., for the same reasons I let Deepak Chopra slip by. Namely, every time I see these authors representing their work in the media, they do a horrible job. Where I criticize Chopra for setting as iron a standard as I those criticize in various religions, I find my aversion to Gray centered in the notion that the guy really seems to enjoy his status, and never cares to offer anything more than he already has in his books. Perhaps it should not affect his credibility, but Gray reminds me a little bit of a snake-oil salesman; the worst I could accuse him of is tailoring his conclusions to marketability, which would lead those who agree with his philosophies no farther astray than anyone else.

But there are more relevant difficulties I have with Dr Gray. Namely, the summation of Women from Venus and Earth from Mars is an historically aligned, anthropologically classified idea. Certainly it might seem that this model describes what was, but if that's the problem, I don't see how working so narrowly within the confines of the problem itself will ever help someone exceed the problem. In other words, simply admitting that men and women are different in these regards earns us nothing. We can go on, playing a juggling game with ideas that are now more clearly identified, or we can break the mold and say, "Why do I have to be from anywhere but Earth?"

When I was in high school, my Lit teacher challenged us with the notion that "Why say I love you when you're 17? You don't know what it means." And, of course, various groups of people clustered up in their free time over the next two days, trying to prove him wrong. That, it seems, was the point. I quit trying when it hit me that we could not quantify those qualities which composed love, harmony, or any other positive aspect of human relations. Attempting to do so would limit them.

Now I understand that this might have little to do with John Gray, PhD. It could be that his work is not about love but functionality, in which case I support any template that gets people from day to day without hurting anyone else. I suppose the difference I'm getting at is this: Is it the duty of a psychotherapist to "heal" you, or to help you operate within the mainstream ... or is health and conformity the same thing? In a similar light, I would ask you, who has read more of Gray's text than I, if you feel he is trying to bolster love, functional relationships, or the idea that the latter establishes the former?

Or, of course, anything else, since there are as many interpretations in this single second as there are human heartbeats.

But, I admit, this paltry set of assumptions is the best I can manage. And I will admit that it is entirely possible that those persons I know who make use of Gray's psychology and other pop-psych prescription manuals happen to be, coincidentally, the biggest idiots I know. It seems to result in such logical mishaps as "scheduled spontaneity". Again, it could be that these cousins and associates of mine are just plain stupid, but I think it's dangerous to heal divisions between the genders by separating and classifying them; these people are the best evidence I can manage.

thanx,
Tiassa

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

I'm Glad to be back. I had a joyous Christmas and I hope that everyone else did as well. Please, have a save New Year's celebration. I don't want to see the level of contention suddenly drop off in this place ;).

Flash,

I truly thank you. I really do believe more and more that, beyond that tough exterior of yours, you're a sweet and gentile person. I think that if we knew one another face to face, we could be friends despite our differences ;).

Searcher,

<CENTER><TABLE><TR><TD WIDTH="500"><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:
<HR><FONT SIZE="1">This isn't about a "pity party" - this is about righting the wrongs of the world, and you don't do it by going along with the program and keeping your mouth shut. Things don't just magically change without an impetus of some sort.</FONT><HR></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

I'm so very happy to hear that we are in agreement on something of any amount. Perhaps I don't say it enough that I understand where it is that you're coming from on many things. At times. I can be a bit powerful when I speak. I don't ever want you to think that means that I'm angry with you (I'll make it clear if I am). In reality, it usually means that I am passionate about some reality for you. You are correct that you don't do it by keeping your mouth shut. You do it by focusing on the correction of your own ways through a change of your own heart that only comes from a right relationship with Christ. Only after may you invite others to that peace. Your way is to invite others into a war for war's sake. Christ was never like this. He called all people into a peaceful relationship with God by submission and servanthood. Like the rich man that did not want to hear that he should give up all of his wealth, you have turned the other way because you don't want to give up all the years of anger that you have stored up. You have no clue how to let that go. I have news for you. Even if you won, you would not be happy. What you have is a bad case of affluenza (the desire to be more that you are through power and/or riches) All the while, the very things and people that you detest so much continue on in their ways oblivious to the insignificance of your spouting wrath. The Bible even says that an angry face will turn people away. How can you attract others to your cause? Will you beat them into submission? God's Word says that you should serve your enemies and that in so doing you will heap coals of fire upon their head. God's Word says to overcome evil with GOOD! What good is there in taking the stance of, "Don't serve me and don't expect me to serve you."? When you first began in courtship with your husband, did he not serve you in kindness and overwhelming goodness to get your attention? Did you not enjoy the favors of his courtship? How is it that it should stop now that there is love which has had so much time to grow? Love = Service!!!!! The matter is not to keep your mouth shut. The matter is to keep your mouth full with goodness that flows forth from the heart of one that is in a right relationship with God through His risen Savior Jesus Christ. Any other heart is full of darkness and can only bestow darkness upon others. You, in your anger, can only speak in anger. I, in God's love, find it easy to speak of His love. There's a sharp contrast. You are the power of your tongue. God is the power of mine.

<CENTER><TABLE><TR><TD WIDTH="500"><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:
<HR><FONT SIZE="1">Your Bible says, in Ephesians 6:5, "Servants be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ". Where would young Black men be today, if they quietly followed the advice in your Bible?</FONT><HR></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

Perhaps, in some way, your Bible has had that particular page torn or the rest was truncated or stained to the point of illegibility. Let me give you the entire passage.

Ephesians 6:5-18<FONT COLOR="BLUE">Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;</FONT>

My people, following the Word of God, blessed themselves by being good servants and standing up for the truth of God at the same time. The slave masters, full of their own egos, thought themselves indestructible. All the while, they taught the oppressed skills and virtue they, themselves, did not know they could. They became complacent in the false beliefs of the lack of abilities of the oppressed. Just as in any Prisoner Of War camp those that thrash against the oppressors are done away with and those that fain stupidity are free to plot the overthrow of the oppressors, the Black men and women can stand in honor and say that they shook of the bonds of slavery without basing themselves to the standards of fools. Their families were torn away and they re-constituted new ones all because of the time of respite that the intimacy of service provided. The intimate knowledge of the workings of the oppressor was key to the success of the underground railroad. You do not know of what you speak! Had they fought out of season, we would have faced the fate of so many other peoples in the world to fight without the proper intimate knowledge of the oppressor. The work they did was to the glory of God! The Bible makes it clear that even sinners will benefit from the doings of God's children just for being close to them. God's Word also promises that the evil will eventually cause evil to visit themselves in three ways: Hard,... Fast,... and Often! The pleasure of their sin had it's season and it ended with a bang. To go on about the passage, the Word of God instructs the oppressed to be strong in Christ with instructions on how to accomplish this in the face of any oppression. This is after the promise that the Lord would deliver re-payment of the work done in suffering. Why fear man when God can do worse? Why regard man when God can give better? They had perspective and a goal in sight that was the reward of the Lord for their faithfulness. Vision of the goal is what it takes to drive a man to dig in the dirt day after day to find an elusive precious stone. Vision of the goal is what it takes to cause a man to work cleaning port-o-potties to make a better future for his family through business ownership. Vision of the goal is what it takes to bring a Marine out of the trenches and into the hail of hot lead without regard given to the near certain destruction that awaits him. Vision of the goal is what it took to enable Blacks to serve under such oppression. The courage to follow the Lord will always be a blessing and it is better than any precious stone, financial gain, or battle glory! As the passage ends with the need for true fervent prayer shown to be in order, it's easy to recall all the joyous songs of Praise to God and even the secret songs of blessing (Wade In The Water) that all stemmed from a right relationship with God. What others meant for evil, God used for GOOD!!!!! How the world treats you is irrelevant. How will you treat the world? Where can you get the power to bless them that hate you except from Christ? Hope is for the weak you say? I say that you have not known oppression. You only oppress yourself from freedom in thinking you have. It is a fool that has no hope. Would you call yourself a fool? The Bible would call you one. By your own power, you shout at the world with the voice of an annoying flea. You are simply cast aside a no one will have you. Yet, Christ sends His Elect to you and you would have none of it. Yield to Christ and He will free you. He alone will make you free. I pray for you always. I have hope that you will see. It is because of the Love that Christ first bore me that I am able to love you.

SkyeBlue,

Your turn :).

<CENTER><TABLE><TR><TD WIDTH="500"><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:
<HR><FONT SIZE="1">What I'm objecting to is your insistence that the man is the head and the woman is the...what? Feet?...of the relationship. Yah, yah, yah, feet are necessary, we know that, but why MUST it be the woman? Surely a man deserves to be served and taken care of by his wife too? Surely the wife is responsible to carry her half of the weight of the marriage?</FONT><HR></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

I really do respect that you seem to be the more mature of thought type. To correct you, it's hand's to feet and head to body that was given. What good is a head without a body? What good is a body without a head? Both will live for only a short time and die fruitless.

I'll tell you why the woman was the feet in the example. It's a very legitimate and responsible question. The feet are not typically very strong. Neither is the woman typically very strong. Yet, both are extraordinary in physical functionality. The feet are often the forgotten friend and benefactor of all that goes on in the body. The same is true of women. The feet are so very much trusted to complete their task that they are often overlooked until there is a problem. The same is true of women. The feet are often shoved into bad situations (funky shoes) with the false thought that there will be no adverse effect. The same is true of women. The feet, if properly cared for, will likely not suffer a debilitating breakdown of the soft tissues. Likewise, the woman, if Loved in Godliness, is not likely to suffer a breakdown of the heart. Yes, a man does need to be cared for and taken care of by his woman too. You are correct. Just as with feet, in regards to the body, it is best that you should hold him up and keep him pointed in the right direction. His focus should be on the ways of God. All other things stem from your opening up to him in love and properly holding him up through the power of a right relationship with Christ. Christ wields the ax so that the man is given his task. The woman keeps him on it. As with Adam and Eve, if she slips from the hand of God, where two truly have become one flesh, he is also likely to miss the target. His success is based largely upon your faithfulness to service as well as your faithfulness in allowing him to serve you. He is to serve you. Your are to serve him. All this is to be done in the service of the Lord God. Skin serves the needs of bone. Bone serves the needs of skin. Which is it better to be? Who can tell when it is that they serve the needs of one flesh? The same is true of hands and feet. The same is true of man and woman. One flesh is stricken to death by even a tiny pin prick of poison. Does it ever matter if it enters through the hands or the feet? The whole flesh end up just as dead.

Sadly, the rest of your post is full of the same assertion of self. Why can't you see that??? You, too, I will pray for. The one true God can redeem you as well. He can make the vilest sinner clean. I know!!!!!!! I leave you with some of the pleasure of a woman according to God. All her good works are fruit of her vine being firmly planted in the Tree of Life.

Proverbs 31:10-31 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night. She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
ISDAMan

ISDAMan,

Do you think that you will be heard for your much speaking? (This is a hint that you don't have to be in competition for the most lines ever written in a single post; in fact, a little brevity would be much appreciated here - thanks.)


Like the rich man that did not want to hear that he should give up all of his wealth, you have turned the other way because you don't want to give up all the years of anger that you have stored up. You have no clue how to let that go. I have news for you. Even if you won, you would not be happy.

Dude - what are you talking about? Anger about what? You don't have any idea what I'm like, do you? Because I assert that I am the joint head of household, right alongside my husband, and that is the way I believe it should be in every household headed by a married couple - you think I have years of stored-up anger? That's kind of funny, ISDAMan. Maybe the way I tried to explain it to you came across as anger, but I can assure you, that is not the case. My husband knew I had a mind and a will of my own and he accepted that about me when he married me, so there's nothing for me to be angry about. We've been together 20 years now, and we're quite happy, thank you!


What you have is a bad case of affluenza (the desire to be more that you are through power and/or riches) All the while, the very things and people that you detest so much continue on in their ways oblivious to the insignificance of your spouting wrath.

Sorry, no clue here whatsoever. Who do I detest? Not a single person that I can think of, ISDAMan! I detest the idea that a man should be the head of household, and his wife should be a submissive little mouse under his dominion (okay - I know you didn't put it that way, but no matter how you slice it, that's exactly how it comes across). Spouting wrath? Oh, you mean a woman who speaks her mind is "spouting wrath"? Um, okay. I don't quite see it that way, but then I'm not the one insinuating that women should be seen and not heard. Perhaps that's how you do see it after all?


When you first began in courtship with your husband, did he not serve you in kindness and overwhelming goodness to get your attention? Did you not enjoy the favors of his courtship? How is it that it should stop now that there is love which has had so much time to grow? Love = Service!!!!!

Yes, we do things for each other all the time. But what does that have to do with him being the head of the household, and me being the - uh, foot? We run the household together, we make all major decisions together, we both take care of the "homestead", and we both go out and earn a living. Although you don't seem to have a problem with all of that, you still insist that the man alone is the "head of household". Well, give me a pair of shoulder pads and color me stupid, but I just don't get it!

I'll go ahead and stop here, lest I do the very thing I detest the most in a public forum such as this one (that is, taking up WAY more space than what's necessary to make your point).

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

ISDAMan,
Sweet??????????? *hurling* :)
Friends? Well, stranger things have happened..I mean..look at Lori and I... we
totally do not believe the same way and we are friends. LOL
Look, I never meant to come off as if I didn't want to be friends with anyone..I just get pissed sometimes.. :)

ISDAMan -

You said:
"Sadly, the rest of your post is full of the same assertion of self. Why can't you see that??? You, too, I will pray for. The one true God can redeem you as well. He can make the vilest sinner clean. I know!!!!!!!"

Assertion of self? Yah, I suppose so. The reason I'm talking about myself is because I feel like I've been put on the defensive. Your statements that I need to be this woman of your bible feel like an attack. A minor one, of course, but an attack none the less. I will not be told by you, or any other person what my role in my marriage is to be. That's for me and my husband to decide that, nobody else!

Maybe it's the word "service" that raises my hackles. I "support" my husband in everything he does. He is a musician, and that gets damn expensive. He spends hours locked up in his room, composing music, and I have to sacrifice time I would rather spend with him to his music. But I don't mind, because I love him above anything or anyone else, so anything that makes him happy is okay with me. Now I am studying Magick. Now I am the one spending hours locked up in MY room, burning herbs and mixing oils, studying strange books, talking to the moon (more than usual), and asking for things like chalices and franckincense for Xmas. And he supports me, 100%. Two way street. I wouldn't have it any other way, neither would he.

ISDAMan, I think you and I are actually not too far off from expecting the same things out of a relationship. I object mainly to the way you are phrasing things. I think if you and I were to meet in a way where we could more accurately express ourselves we would find a lot more agreement than disagreement. The simple fact is, that I am a strong-willed woman. I will not submit to anyone, but I will support those that I love. The 'head' of my family has two brains in it, not just one.

As to your last comment, about praying for me - the "vilest sinner"?? Was that supposed to be a description of me? Oh well, I suppose by your book I am a vile sinner. Just keep in mind that your book doesn't influence my morals. I have taken a lot of time and energy to thouroughly lay out for myself what is right and what is wrong. I do my best to abide by my rules, they are quite rigid, and I try to live up to the ideal I have created for myself. They aren't the same as your rules, I have a different set of "commandments", if you will. But I follow them the best I can, and if you put religion aside, I think you'd find me to be an honest, good person. You might disagree with the way I live my life, but I make sure not to harm others as I forge my way through this existance, so I think everything else is irrelevant to strangers.

SkyeBlue,
not only do I agree entirely with your last post, but to add to our Twilight Zonish connection it may interest you to know that I also are a musician and when I compose I'm also locked up in my home studio for 12 hours or more a day.If I'm not doing that, I'm either on the internet, or writing, or dreaming and scheming in my own private space.

My wife also has to sacrifice some of her time with me to my interests, because she knows it makes me happy. Meanwhile, she does the things she loves to do, such as looking after our 2 Yorkshire Terriers, gardening, shopping and painting, amongst others.
We also spend quite a bit of time together. We've actually been happily married and childless for 27 years and have never been apart for the past 25! I mean 24 hours a day, we used to work together 'n everything.
http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Sorry if this was right off the subject, but hey, it had to be said at some point! :cool:

Wow, Tab' - that's cool! What kind of music do you make, if you don't mind me asking?

My hubby is a computer-composer, 'electronica' I suppose is the right term for the music. He creates original sounds using a keyboard, or effect processor, or a 'sound module', or he samples words or music, then imports them to one of his pc's and layers beats and effects and distortion and such over that. Not really my type of music, but whatever makes him happy... :) Apparently it's pretty good stuff, he has had DJ's approach him and take some of his music to be played at some pretty major raves in the area. We're in the process of learning about the music industry, he feels just about ready to find a label and go pro, but there's just so much to learn!! But between the two of us, we'll lick this yet!

ISDAMan,

Another thing: You say that I have not known oppression. If you mean that I have been spared the indignities of life on a reservation, you are quite correct. But don't be so quick to assume you know so much about me, or my parents, or my grandparents and so on. I learned far more about my Native American heritage at my grandmother's knee than I ever could have learned in school - and it wasn't because she was so educated (she had only an 8th grade education). She was taught the truth by her parents and grandparents. I would venture to say that there are those who share some of the same bloodlines with me who know far more than YOU do about oppression, if you wish to wear oppression as a badge of honor. Please see the following webpage:

http://www.iwchildren.org/redskinhate.htm

Oh, I know. You're going to say that if the Native American people would just give up their Pagan religion, Christ would help them to overcome this oppression. Don't you understand that being forced to give up your religion IS part of the oppression??? (Please don't take this as anger, I'm just sharing my feelings with you on this matter.)


<img src ="http://home.att.net/~Numberup/dreamsd.gif">

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

Oh, come on, now!

Delivering the Word of God to others is not "forcing" anyone to do anything... We all have a choice... through God's gift of free will.

TS,

Free will? Perhaps you didn't look too far into that webpage I posted for you. Here, let me post this little tidbit for you:

<img src ="http://www.iwchildren.org/christian/chivington2.jpg">

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

No. I did not look at the webpage. That was then... This is now... Relatively speaking, the world is a more civilized place now.

I come from very mixed ancestry and could have gripes against many groups of people but I prefer not to dig up the past...

Since you have now told us that you are of Native American Indian descent, though, I can't help but wonder why you find the ancient Hebrew custom of the sacrifice of animals before eating so distasteful considering that the Native American Indian has its own history of ritualistic HUMAN sacrifice...???

Searcher,

Do you know what culture it was that used to cut off both the hands of a woman who did not have a man to hunt for her, because the woman was then considered a "worthless burden" on the society?

Searcher,

What I would like to say to you, is this...

Many cultures, many societies, many ethnic and religious groups have done horrible things throughout history.

Some acts have even been committed erroneously "in the name of God" or "in the name of Jesus Christ."

However, all of the horrible acts which both you and I have pointed to above are contradictory to God's plan and contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ taught us the gentle way of right relationships through "love." Unfortunately, not everybody will commit to such a lifestyle in earnest.

I can assure you, though, the teachings of Jesus Christ do not include force, maiming or slaughtering of other human beings. If everybody finally "gets" that, perhaps we can all live in peace.

May the Peace of the Lord, Jesus Christ, be with us all!

TS,

You do not have to have Native American ancestry to find the early American policies of Native American erradication (all in the name of the Lord, of course) disgusting, do you? I don't have any Jewish ancestry that I am aware of, but I am thoroughly disgusted at what happened under the Nazi regime. Not to "dig up the past", but do you really think these things are best forgotten? I seem to recall a warning about those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it...

And I'm not saying that I agree with every action ever committed by every Native American tribe or individual. I am well aware that women in many Native American tribes were treated in ways that I would find disgusting. Indeed, we've come a long way, baby!

I am also aware that some of the South American Indian cultures participated in ritualistic human sacrifice, a practice I consider abhorrent. But I'm sure you don't believe that this justifies the "Christian" actions against Native Americans, so why bring it up?

As for Hebrew sacrifice, my point is that it was pointless! I believe it was an idea introduced by the priests to ensure that they were well fed. For that to have "evolved" to the sacrifice of a man called Jesus to atone for the sins of all of humankind is the most horrifying idea of all!!

TS, if Christianity brings peace and love to some, I certainly wouldn't begrudge you or anyone else that feeling. It has different associations for others. And it HAS been forced on some in times past, if not now. I wouldn't want to see a return of such atrocities, would you? Live and let live...



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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Do I think that atrocities committed by mankind against mankind should be:

Forgotten? No.

Forgiven? Yes.

A source of anger or hatred towards an entire group of people? No.

Put forth as representative of Jesus Christ? Certainly not.

A source of anger or contempt of God? Absolutely not.



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Yesterday's history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a "gift." That's why we call it "the present."
What will you do with your gift of today?

Why are you guys still arguing about this? I guess because you choose to ignore what I said about a page or so ago. This is frustrating, that it's like you all HAVE to make this irreconcilable. You INSIST on making it irreconcilable, even though it is, and I did a rather good job (if I do say so) pointing that out. It's not about superiority, it's not about being better than, or lesser than, it's just about being different, and MAY I SAY OBVIOUSLY equally important. This is not impossible to resolve ok? If you base the Bible on what you know to be true, instead of trying to base it on what you know to be NOT true, you will find truth.

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"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Jesus and His Family (Luke 8:19-21)

Then his mother and his brothers came to him but were unable to join him because of the crowd. He was told, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside and they wish to see you." He said to them in reply, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and act on it."

NO MORE, NO LESS.

Lori,

It is imposible to know what is true about the bible. It was written by HUMANS not by a god that we do not even know is there.

Truestory,

If in order to get out from underneath opression god dictates you must give up what you believe, then god is the opressor.

Skyblue,

It is rare that a guy can speak to a woman like that. You are truly a rare bird. I mean that with utmost respect. :)

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My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

SkyeBlue,

My life was not excluded in the term vilest. That is how I know. I, too, have the history of a sinner. Christ has given me the future of abundant life. I'll be praying for you in ernest.

You're right. I do think that I could find you to be an honest and good person. I just hurt for you, because, God's Word is oh so clear that human goodness misses the mark. It's like an arrow that falls well short of the target and without regard for the beauty of it's flight. I commend you for being so good and giving to your husband. I can also respect your more mature consideration of things. I can tell that, for the most part, you are actively thinking before you speak. I like that in a person. I wish I could say that of everyone here. You already know that I consider the basis of a good part of your philosophy to be wrong. Neither of us will ever need therapy over the knowledge of that difference. It might interest you to know that I have am a former choral & chamber music member and a self taught pianist & guitarist. I'm weak on the keys nowadays. Not enough practice time. I do it for enjoyment though. I'm probably done with bands. Your husband is blessed by such an understanding wife. I know what it's like to be told, "You love that guitar more than you love me!" It really hurts. Still, what is it to "sacrifice" & "support" in love? Isn't it to serve? There's no shame in the service game ;). I like to know that it's service. It makes me no less of a man. It is no less for a woman. You are a good woman. Never the less, Christ can increase your wealth in goodness in the likes of which you have not known. I think we've found together that God's ways are not as strange as one might think on the serface :).

Take the lowest place for God and Christ will raise you above the rest,
With Service In Love,
ISDAMan

Not true, 666!

God gives you the truth. God also gives you the free will to accept or reject the truth. It's your choice.

TS,
No, this is your belief.

Flash,

Do you know what I'm talking about?

God does not "dictate" that you have to "give up" what you "believe."

If you believe that, then, you are mistaken.

Searcher,

You've gone off on another tangent based on another false assumption drawn directly out of your lack of understanding and desire to spurn reproof at all costs. I've seen truestory's answers to you. They mirror the very things that we have gone over in the past with diligence. It is a shame that things must be said to you over and over again. I pray that you will learn how to listen and recall again what has been said to you. I pray that you will learn to consider your words. I pray that you learn to hear what is being said to you before you reject it and make assumptions regarding what is being said to you. I pray that God would grant you maturity and wisdom so that people will not become frustrated in dealing with you. I could not be the first person to ever tell you that you lack listening skills and are quick to jump to conclusions. These attributes will curse you all your days until you depart from them.

Fear the Lord God and gain Life,
ISDAMan

TS,
I know what you are saying regarding about accepting him or not...
BUT, according to the bible...if you continue to choose to "sin"...even if you give up and give in to him...you still get the prize of hell...right? Soooooo one is limited to a set of rules governed by God.
Once you join the team...it's his rules his ways..his everything...if ya don't..strike three...you're out ;)

666 -

Thanks for the compliment. I've never considered "rare" an insult, I actually much prefer to be an individual than a body in the crowd. :) Here's to you, bitch! LOL.

666 -

Thanks for the compliment!! I have always preferred to be "rare" than "common". :) Here's to you, bitch! LOL!

Hey! What the? It didn't post my first one and gave me an error, so I made the second one. Oh well.

Flash,

I think that what you are proposing is nearly impossible. For me at least, to believe that God exists, and to believe that Jesus is His Son, and the Bible is His word, I would find it virtually IMPOSSIBLE to intentionally sin against Him. It's illogical. The point is that YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO. I know that's difficult for you to imagine, but try because it's true. Now, just because you don't WANT TO doesn't mean that you won't unintentionally, or let your emotions get the best of you sometimes, but if you pray and ask for forgiveness and for help, He will give it to you, and you will grow spiritually, and change your behavior ONLY based upon your changed perception regarding what is important. I hope this makes sense. Please try to understand!!!!

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Flash,

What you are proposing is illogical if not impossible. To truly believe makes it impossible, or at least illogical to intentionally sin against God. The whole point is that YOU DON'T WANT TO. That's not to say that you won't unintentionally, or let your emotions or ego get the best of you and do it anyway. But when you do, you know it, and you repent and ask for help in atonement. But you can not have true beliefs in Jesus as the Son of God and as your Saviour, and then intentionally go out and defy His will. The intentions are directly conflicting.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Hhmmm, looks like I'm not the only one this is happening to!

Man, I hope I do not have to end up posting this twice like Skye and you did LOL

Lori,
First, I understand what you are saying..
BUT, I do not agree with it at all ..you're
shocked..huh? ;)
Thing is...some of the things the bible names as sin... I think is utter BS...
Then again... I do not believe the bible is
all correct... and how do you know that some of the sins mentioned are even really true?
You did admit that the translations get all
messed up ;)

I have to say I'm with Flash on this one.

If somehow the Christian God appeared before me...well, I don't know exactly how I would verify who he really was. Assuming I somehow KNEW who he was, I'd have quite a few questions for him, that's for damn sure! Who says I WANT to spend eternity with him? I don't really like most of what I 'know' about him now, I think I'd rather spend eternity in limbo, or hell, and stay my familiar, sinful self. :)

SkyeBlue,
very similar to what your husband is doing probably. I think we can call it Drum 'n Bass,Trance,Asian underground,Techno,World Fusion, there are so many different styles and genres of contemporary computer music but they're all pretty interchangeable and interactive.
I also play long inspirational guitar improvisations when I get the urge, though I haven't done any music at all for the past year or so.
For reference, I love Pat Metheny, Trilok Gurtu, Joe Zawinul, Future Sounds of London, Roni Size, Talvin Singh and many others..! http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

See, Lori... I'm not the only one who thinks this way. I think many people feel the same way... You all (christians) think everything God does is ok...and I just don't get it...that and then you turn around and make
excuses for the things he does... I think perhaps the one who needs to get honest and dig deep inside is you, Lori :)

Well, let's start with the 10 Commandments. Now what exactly do you guys have a problem with? What sin that is identified in the Bible is so hard for you to reconcile? And please, let's not go into the ancient Judaism stuff about touching dead corpses and whatnot ok? I'm not claiming that I disagree with any of those laws that seem obscure to me, but unlike you, just because they seem obscure does not mean I don't think that they served a very valid purpose. I just don't claim to understand what that purpose is, other than to atone for and abolish sin on this earth. Why would God want to do that? Because take a look around; it's not good for us, that's why. And that's good enough for me. So let's at least start with the NT, and let's itemize and address every single flippin' thing that you guys can't seem to understand. Ok, for starters, who's got a problem with the 10 commandments and which one/ones and why? Ts and Vinnie, please stand by...I'll need your help, I'm sure. Vinnie, just don't call anyone a foot ok? ;) j/k.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Lori,
Ok.. the problem I have with the 10 commandments is that God broke at least one of them... thou shalt not kill!
Hey, if HE can't even follow them ..why the hell should he hold it against those who do not either????????
*waiting for your reply on this one*

Somebody remind me again what exactly each of the commandments are?

I haven't studied Christianity as much as I've studied other religions. Guess it shows!

ISDAMan,

Well, at least your last post to me wasn't a mile long - THAT I do appreciate!! You're right, I don't have the time to read a long-winded post such as you are so fond of posting, my friend. So if I appear not to be "listening" to you, maybe that has something to do with it? This is ground I've covered with others before, in case you weren't paying attention.

If by "desire to spurn reproof" you mean that I don't suddenly agree with everything you say and change my whole way of living to match YOUR beliefs, you are correct. I am trying to explain to you where I am coming from, and why I could never live my life the way YOU think I should.

ISDAMan, as you sit there pointing your finger at me, do you realize you are pointing four fingers back at yourself? Do you realize that you are not "listening" to me? Do you realize that I'm getting extremely frustrated in my attempts to communicate with you?

Forget about the "tangents" for now - the main theme of my posts to you is this: In the case of a married couple, the man is not the "head of household" alone; his wife is joint head of household right alongside of him. That's the way it is in my household. That's the way it is in any household where husband and wife truly respect each other. And that's the way the law sees it in the United States of America. Period.

I will pray to my gods that you will someday gain the maturity and wisdom to understand this, ISDAMan (you gotta love that one, huh? ;) ). I could go on with this "praying for you" theme, basically parroting everything back to you that you said to me, but I think you're bright enough to get my point. It's really annoying, so knock it off - okay?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Lori,

I have a problem with the ones that invalidate all Pagan religions with one deft blow (thou shalt have no other gods before me...thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image...).

Also, there's the one about remembering the "sabbath" day and keeping it holy. This means no work is to be done on the sabbath day (which, in this day and age, is simply an impossible commandment for the entire world to follow). Of course, as most Christians seem to be unaware, although the Christian sabbath was originally Saturday, this was later changed to SUNday - an obvious Pagan day of worship - by Emperor Constantine (who was really a Pagan) in the third century A.D. Kind of amusing, that.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

To make a slight change to my previous post, it may have been the fourth century A.D. when Constantine changed the day of worship to Sunday. In any case, he was the one who changed it.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Flash,


BUT, according to the bible...if you continue to choose to "sin"...even if you give up and give in to him...you still get the prize of hell...right? Soooooo one is limited to a set of rules governed by God.

Accepting Jesus into your life is the acceptance of a gift. We do not lose anything. We gain.

It's like one who is poor in vision, who is always tripping and bumping into things, being given a pair of glasses. If one accepts the gift and uses it diligently, the glasses serve so that one gains a clearness of vision.

If not used diligently, if you forget that they are available to serve you and you leave the glasses in a case on the counter for example, you will continue to get bruised by bumping into things. But, once you put the glasses back on, your vision clears again.

The same is true with accepting the gift of Jesus Christ. With respect to right relationships through love and salvation, your vision clears. Jesus is here to serve, to show you the way. With Jesus in your heart, you will begin to see your sins more clearly and you avoid them, as they are things that can hurt you if you collide with them.

Now, that doesn't mean that there won't be days when you won't sin because you forgot to focus on Jesus.

But, what fool would wear the glasses, see the sharp corner of the table and intentionally ram their body into it?

TS,
I like me the way I am...I do not need some
god to tell me how to act, walk, talk, wipe my butt (sorry, TS :) ) I'd be a puppet on a bloody string...
BTW..who wants a gift when there are strings
attached???

Flash,

God does not seek to control you. God seeks to walk "with" you.

What "bad" strings are you assuming are attached?

From what I am hearing from you, perhaps I should have used an analogy which included a "seeing eye dog" rather than a pair of glasses? LOL!!! :)

:) Ok, that was cute...

I simply believe by the things I have read in the bible and learning what I have from the churches I have attended... It is all
about control...and I know you call me blind..but really for the life of me I do not understand why you guys can't see that.

Well...I just do not like the view of God that the bible portrays... and besides I don't even believe in him LOL!

The strings attached would be...
you have to follow every bloody rule he has... if you mess up ..ask for forgiveness ..right? Well, if one doesn't want to change things and continues to do it..then wham..I take my gift back you bad bad
person... to hell you go type of thing...

Hay Flash,

I know some of your history. It would be a real help in understanding your point of view if you could give more background in your dealings with churches. Articles of faith (if you recall) and the whole nine of what they stood for. You know. Give some examples of things said and done and how you felt in relation. Feel free to make it as long as you see fit ;). I'm sure the greater part of us are adult enough to deal with it. I know that I want to take the time to understand more about you and I'm sure that truestory would as well.

God saved a wretch like me,
ISDAMan

Very good, ISDAMan. You've improved drastically. You managed to ask a question of Flash and sling some mud at me all in one short paragraph. I'm really proud of the progress you've made!

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

The truth is like a red hot poker. Is it not? Perhaps my method of answering your last post was not the best. I am truly sorry if I hurt you in any way. Still, how often do you think you can act in that way and not hear about it? It's all good when you are claiming that someone else needs a change. Someone else is wrong. You think you're so slick at times. Turn the tables and your the poor innocent victim. You're always the victim aren't you? There's a God that would make you the victor. I'm really unsure what else to say to you. It breaks my heart to know that you are living a life in enmity to the God that created you. I care. I really do. I'm sorry that I felt it necessary to shock you in that way. I know that it's tantamount to a verbal spanking. Speaking like that is not something I like to do. None the less, there is a real issue of maturity here that inhibits you greatly. You think you don't have a problem? Then, tell me, why do you come to this place to argue about the ways of a God that you say does not exist?

Let Christ Into You Heart And Be Saved!!!!,
ISDAMan

Searcher,


I have a problem with the ones that invalidate all Pagan religions with one deft blow (thou shalt have no other gods before me...thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image...).

Why do you have a problem with this? Because God said that this practice had to be changed?

Why do you think God gave us the Word? It was because we were lost and did not know the way. Does this make God "bad" or "good" in your opinion?

If you were to try to bake a cake which called for baking powder and you had been mistakenly using baking soda and someone informed you of the proper ingredient for the recipe in order for you to actually make the cake, would you consider them a bad person because they showed you the correct way and told you that if you continued to use the baking soda that you would never make the cake?

Wow, you guys have been busy.

Flash, I'm sure you won't mind, but I'm gonna fill in Vinnie on your "Christian experience". Feel free to add to this, but since you've told me a lot about it, I think I may be able to sum it up nicely. And I also very, very much think that it is a big reason why you detest the religion so much today, and the same reason why many others do. She was subjected to judgement overload to the nth degree. The kind of people who would hypothetically disown a child to "save face" in their church. You know, because the child committed a sin. Excuse me, but that doesn't make sense, ok? The kind of people who would like to entertain the thought that they were better than others, or that she wasn't good enough. Since I had an abortion, I often think about what it is that makes women make a decision like that. I had to analyze my own reasons, but another reason crossed my mind. It occurred to me that it was brutally ironic that there are probably people who profess to be Christians, and are avid church goers, who if their teenage daughter was to end up pregnant, would be first in line at the abortion clinic, all hush-hush to save face. Or better yet, just kick a pregnant teen out of the house and disown her to save face. Brutally ironic, judgemental, dishonest, and not anything like JESUS. Now, these are hypothetical situations that depict the kind of judgement, holier than thou, you're gonna burn in hell cause you're just not good enough crap that she was exposed to. It really pisses me off since I've been trying to do damage control over it for how long now? I'm not gonna give up though. :)

Searcher,

The commandment about not worshipping other gods is based upon and important because of some underlying assumptions that are taught in the Bible. One being that there really IS only one God. Another being that if you are tempted by other gods or spirits to follow them or another god, then they are certainly of Satan. I mean, the teachings just do not offer any other explanation at all, and it is very, very clear in the one that it does offer. The Father of Jesus Christ IS really the only God and Creator, and Jesus really is His only Son. The only being who would possibly get in the way of you realizing that is Satan. In fact that is his only purpose; to keep us from our God and from the truth about Him and ourselves. And let's not forget the assumption that God loves us more than we can even imagine is possible. So, this all leads to the conclusion that the commandment regarding worship of other gods is there for our protection. Messing around with deceptive spirits is the most dangerous thing that you can do ever. Why? Because they're deceptive, and without God's word you can NOT tell the difference. That is said in the Bible as well. There is no deception if you are aware that you're being deceived. It's all for your benefit, and not for His ego. He doesn't have one.

Skye,

Why do you have a problem with a Sabbath day if your own religion has a Sabbath day? I'm not sure I understand.



------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

ISDAMan,

You tell me - it's quite obvious to me that I've stung you in some way of which I am unaware (most likely by refusing to give in to your outdated ideas of male superiority). For that I apologize - I only meant to make it clear to you that I don't buy into what I consider to be your Neanderthal idea of the perfect marriage.

No, I'm not a victim in any way, because I won't allow myself to be the victim in these little online spats. I can see it hasn't escaped your notice that I do have a habit of fighting back, so how does that make me a victim? I know that really bothers you since it is also quite obvious that you consider women to be inferior in some way to men, but I will not be your victim here - sorry.

I may have a slight reading disability ISDAMan, but I am not blind to the slings and arrows you've been sending my way lately. Apparently that's your definition of "mature discussion". Again, I'm not your victim. I have asked you several times to keep your posts to me short, if not sweet (the sweet part I will leave to your Christian discretion). There is a reason for that. Apparently you view it as just another opportunity for you to attack what you consider to be a weakness in your opponent. Again - I won't put up with that kind of behavior from you. Is that clear?

As for coming here to argue religion - I might ask you the same question? It takes two to tango, ISDAMan - and I'm not arguing with myself here, am I? Come to think of it, maybe I am - I haven't received anything from you that could really qualify as an answer to my ONE question to you. Maybe that's my fault - maybe I haven't phrased the question clearly enough for you? If you choose to answer it, this is my one question to you: Why can't you accept your wife as the joint head of your household?

That's all I have to say to you for now, ISDAMan. If you choose to be more civil in your future dialog with me, then I would be happy to continue the discussion. Otherwise, just skip it - it's obvious we're both wasting our time.

P.S. If there is something I've said to you that you consider uncivil, please point it out and I will try to explain it or apologize for it or both, as is warranted.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

TS & Lori,

The question was posed earlier which of the 10 commandments people have problems with. I was just listing the ones that I personally have problems with, that's all. If any of the commandments, by their nature, require people to give up their existing religions (and those religions aren't hurting anyone - Satanism's not included, as far as I'm concerned) - then that's a problem for me. I have no problem with not stealing or murdering or coveting my neighbor's wife, etc. ;)

Lori,

I was the one who mentioned having a problem with the one about remembering the Sabbath and keeping it holy. Mostly this has to do with the idea that no work should be done on this day (which is just not possible - what about hospitals, emergency services and the like?). Also, this apparently didn't include what was traditionally considered to be "women's work", such as preparing meals, cleaning up after meals, taking care of the children, etc. Back in Biblical times, did the men pitch in and help with these things so the women didn't have to do all the work on the Sabbath? Or was it expected that everyone go hungry and children run around in messy diapers that day? And how does it fit into today's world? (Not very well is my guess.)

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

I'm just trying to explain it, that's all? I don't think it's about children being uncomfortable, or housework and who does it, and we in fact, not God, set up a system in which we receive our medical care at a hospital which is filled with people who's full time job it is to man it. Did you know that if there was no sin at all ever on this whole earth throughout the history of time that we would never get sick or die? It's true! I think that the Sabbath is important to take time out to remember who it is that we work to glorify every day. To take time to study His word, and to foster your relationship with Him intently through worship and prayer and praise. And hey, to rest. Even God rested on the seventh day.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Searcher,

<CENTER><TABLE><TR><TD WIDTH="500"><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:
<HR><FONT SIZE="1">I know that really bothers you since it is also quite obvious that you consider women to be inferior in some way to men, but I will not be your victim here - sorry.</FONT><HR></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

Please, point out where I have ever called women inferior. I have stated again and again the very opposite. I am in awe of the wisdom God has given truestory. I have even told SkyeBlue how I respect her. I've called her a blessing. She even affirmed that she and I are not that far off from one another after all. When God made Adam and Eve, He made them sinless. He made Eve to complete man. It's His design that man and woman are to become one flesh. Why would God have man become one flesh with a woman if she is inferior? The fact is that she is not inferior. She is the same and different all at the same time.

<CENTER><TABLE><TR><TD WIDTH="500"><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:
<HR><FONT SIZE="1">I may have a slight reading disability ISDAMan, but I am not blind to the slings and arrows you've been sending my way lately. Apparently that's your definition of "mature discussion". Again, I'm not your victim. I have asked you several times to keep your posts to me short, if not sweet (the sweet part I will leave to your Christian discretion). There is a reason for that. Apparently you view it as just another opportunity for you to attack what you consider to be a weakness in your opponent. Again - I won't put up with that kind of behavior from you. Is that clear?</FONT><HR></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

I'm afraid that my psychic friend hangs up on me whenever I call ;). I had no way of knowing that you have a reading disability. I can admit it. I was wrong to post that little remark in my post to Flash. I let my frustration get the best of me. There was a clear example of a Christian that did not have his eyes clearly focused upon God's ways alone. I'm guilty of some assertion of self. I have to pay the price. So, I ask you. Can you forgive me? Do you think that we can promise to be friends from now on? If you give me more info on your reading disability, I'll do my best to ensure that I focus on tending to your needs in posting. You can even e-mail me privately.

Also, I have no desire to attack you. In fact, that's the way I have felt you being towards me. I do still contend that it's your outlook on life that makes you go looking for battles. It's easy to find problems when you are looking for them.

<CENTER><TABLE><TR><TD WIDTH="500"><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:
<HR><FONT SIZE="1">Why can't you accept your wife as the joint head of your household?</FONT><HR></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

Perhaps, this answer will be better suited to you than my others. I know that you will not like it. It's simply because God says so. He designed man to function in one role. He designed woman to function in another. Put them together and it's like one's the sweet peanut buttery filling and the other is the chocolate shell of a Resee's Peanut Butter Cup. The man and woman make a great team and neither is better or more important. God Loves us all the same!!!!!! I am not certain why you did not see this in my former posts. I really could use your help in understanding what you are seeing in my words, where, and why.

<CENTER><TABLE><TR><TD WIDTH="500"><FONT SIZE="1">QUOTE:
<HR><FONT SIZE="1">If there is something I've said to you that you consider uncivil, please point it out and I will try to explain it or apologize for it or both, as is warranted.</FONT><HR></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>

No apology is required :)!

Jesus and I Love YOU Dearly!!!!!,
ISDAMan

P.S.- I hope that you don't think that having a reading disability makes you a weak person. The only woman I have ever been in love with is dyslexic. There's nothing bad to hide there. It's o.k. to have hope. It's even o.k. not to be strong.

ISDAMan,

Thank you for your last post. I feel better about that one than I did the last few you posted. And yes, I can forgive you.

As I said, my reading disability is slight - mostly I am a painfully slow reader, and sometimes I just don't see certain words correctly to the point where it changes the meaning of an entire sentence (or the sentence fails to make any sense at all until I reread it several times over). Ugh!!! But I've always been an excellent speller and my vocabulary is reasonable, so go figure. The problem is bad enough that I've had to drop college courses because of timed tests where I didn't even have time enough to read all of the questions, much less answer them. But it doesn't make me a victim - I refuse to allow that!!

But I admit that sometimes I do get very frustrated when I really want to read all of the posts in a particular thread or forum - and especially the ones addressed to me - but normally I don't have time for it. I've been on vacation the last two weeks, and have been able to read and respond almost to my heart's content. :) Next week I have to go back to work, and I'll have to pare it back down a bit. :(

Okay - now onto the rest of your points. I was inferring that you considered women to be inferior from several of your remarks to me. Partially it's because you don't feel a woman should share the responsibility of "head of household" (that's a major sticking point with me), and partially it's because of some of the comments like "verbal spanking" - please. I'm going to be a grandmother in February, for goodness sake. I didn't think that comment was appropriate at all!

You say that you feel I go looking for battles. Well, not consciously - but since I seem to find them so readily, or at least, they find me, maybe that's true to some degree. I know I don't back down from a fight - that is an integral part of my personality. I'm sorry if I come across as a battle ax - not the most attractive trait in a woman, particularly from your perspective, I'm sure.

ISDAMan, I can accept that you must be head of household in your home - as long as your wife is happy with that, it doesn't really bother me. Hopefully, you can accept that my husband and I do things quite a bit differently in our home.

ISDAMan, you and I are two completely different people with very different belief systems. I could never in a million years be married to you, nor you to me. But yes, we can be friends - as long as there is mutual respect between us. I promise to try harder not to be so contentious, if you'll do the same. Okay? :)

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Lori,
I don't mind you filling in some blanks..however, you made it sound like I was a teenage girl who got knocked up...
So I want to CLEAR that one up. I have never been pregnant in my life!

Alright ISDAMan..here is a brief history.
I was raised in a Lutheran church. Now, this church did not act as the one Lori is talking about... maybe some of their members
but for the most part..not like that. I remember when I was a child there were a lot of times my parents forced me to go..which I hated..but what can a child say? No? As if that would work! LOL
As I got older...teenage years... I quit going as much as I could get by with.
The other church was the one that Lori describes certainly fits the picture... the preacher even got onto church members because they were at Wal-Mart on sunday after church..and that should not be....know what is funny about that? I saw him there on a sunday... Repent was a lot of what the messages got around to... one has to walk a very straight line. A lot of the members there were on me all the time telling me I wasn't "living right"... ect... I went there
heck..I don't know how long... But talk about total disgust they had for me when I quit going... Flash quit there little party and they no longer had a project to try to
shape and mold.
The last church I attended was a non-denominational church (are you shocked?)
Although I did like the preacher..there were times he totally pissed me off to no end. There was a friend of mine who was going through a divorce..and he spent the whole "sermon" talking about how WRONG she was for getting one...was talking about her marriage and things that were done wrong..ect... WHILE SHE WAS THERE! A LOT
of the times he would use the pulpit as a time to gossip about this person and that..and every time he'd get up there you would hold your breath thinking...please don't say anything about me...please... and yeah, there were times he did. Outside of things like that...it was the closest thing I had ever witnessed to as a loving church.

I do want to state for the record though..
I do not feel that I was subjected to judement overload in the same manner that Lori is making it out to be...in other words..it has NOTHING to do with me accepting
Jesus or not accepting him.

Flash,

Bull shoot it doesn't! ROFLMAO! Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like you were a naughty little girl, that was completely hypothetical. That very scenario slapped me right across my brain one day though, when I was thinking about the abortion. The thought of it was so perversely hypocritical that it about made me sick. You can apply the situation as an analogy to a lot of circumstances similar to that within the church and that just bugs the crap out of me. I don't think that Flash understands how damaging it can be exactly. I'm taking an educated guess. I don't think that a lot of people do.

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick. :)

Lori,
Come on and give me a break...for ONCE!!!!
I know why I feel the way I do...why I choose to believe or not to believe... don't you think I know??????????? Don't you???
Then again..I guess it doesn't matter then..does it...cause I know..and just because you think differently doesn't mean your observation is correct. :p

Flash,

Duh, I dunno. Why is that you feel the way you do again? I forget.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash,

I don't know if MY observation is correct, but, from what I've observed here... either you DON'T know, or, for some unknown reason, you can't or won't explain it!??

Lori,
I have stated why on another thread... has to do with the Spirit of Truth and what I have been taught. NOW do you REMEMBER???
Smart butt!!!

TS,
Same answer applies here too... I have been explaining some things...come on.. would it hurt to give me a little credit? ;)

Flash,

"Smart-butt" :D LMAO! Why don't you tell us more about your Spirit O' Truth? How did you find it? How is it presented to you? What does it tell you? See guys, me and Flash's spirit o' crap, uh, I mean truth, have been going "head-to-head" for a while now. We are adversaries. Grrrrrrr. I don't like it's fruit not one little bit. Rotten fruit. P-U! (just to clarify, not you Flash, but your beliefs about Jesus, they stink). :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Well...why should I go into all of that since you ALREADY know?
Maybe I think you are deceived... that you are buying into it. Shake loose of the things that bind you... clear your mind..focus on the Spirit of Truth... be free grasshopper! ;)

Cause you're a walking talking witness to the word of our Lord, no not your little lord, but THE Lord, and I think that you should share the source of your new-found, pro-found, spirit o' cra...truth. TS wants to know. :) It's really the spirit of the antichrist. TS nailed it with very little to go on might I add. Nice job, TS. It's obvious, and you could testify to that. Even though it's not so obvious to you, blinded by the light as you are. Don't make me call you a pussy again. :) That's not a cuss word is it? ;) Listen, if your spirit is the truth, then why not share the truth? For it is what we all seek, and you know that right?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

ALRIGHT GUYS YOU READY FOR THIS!!!! :D

SORRY LADIES! :D

"In like manner also that women adorn themselves in modest apparel with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to USURP authority over the man, but to be in SILENCE.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve; woman being deceived was in the transgression:
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
--------------------------------------------
TIMOTHY Ch.9(9-15)

I'm not sure if you guys talked about this yet or not
but I thought I would through this in here to get things going again.

If this is old news then sorry ladies but if not then your welcome guys! :D


------------------
Just got to have faith...
.........in whatever you believe in!!!

Sorry Whammy!

The letters to Timothy are from Paul who was very much into the cultural beliefs of Old Testament Judaism.

Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, corrected such Old Testament beliefs and made it very clear that we are all equal in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

So, yes, it is old news.

By the way, the New American Bible which I am currently referencing does not contain such a chapter and verses. Which publication are you referencing?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 02, 2000).]

Whammy,

That's Timothy 2:9-15, and yes, we've previously covered these and other "pearls of wisdom" from our dear friend, Paul. Thanks, anyway.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

TS,


The letters to Timothy are from Paul who was very much into the cultural beliefs of Old Testament Judaism.

Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, corrected such Old Testament beliefs and made it very clear that we are all equal in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

I would like to point out that the various epistles of Paul, who was an apostle of Jesus Christ, are part of the New Testament.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Sorry about the "9" I meant to put 2, not the best typist in the world.


Truestory, I'm using the number one selling book of all time, " the King James Version of the Bible."

------------------
Just got to have faith...
.........in whatever you believe in!!!

[This message has been edited by Whammy (edited January 02, 2000).]

Lori,
You are only trying to get me to spill my guts so you can point a finger and say..see..see..see.. it's all-whatever the heck you choose to call it, Lori... You are not seeking truth from me via the Spirit..you are wanting to shoot it down..
Gee..how dumb do you think I am? I have said
enough which describes everything anyone would need to know. I'm not really sure what you are driving at exactly. That doesn't mean I want you to volunteer saying anything either... if you have something more to point out you can e-mail me..ok? :)

Searcher,

Yeah, I think we've been through this before. Such matters were in response to the people's desire for discipline and order in the newly formed churches. Such answers were mainly given to satisfy the majority who already believed such things in accordance with the culture prevailing at the time.

In the final analysis it was made clear, however, that such rules for discipline within the church were not moral laws handed down by God, and that anyone who disagrees as such should not be turned away from the church.

Such teachings did not come from Jesus Christ. They came from the patriarchal human society existing at the time. They came from man.

Flash,

You mean shoot it down like you do when I explain the source of my beliefs? The Bible? What do you say about the Bible, and uh Jesus, which would be the very foundation of my beliefs? What are the foundation of your beliefs? Where's your proof?

Whammy,

We've covered this, and to date no one has had a problem with my interpretation that men and women are different yes. And throughout history I think that it's been apparent that women have been able to be submissive to men to the same degree to which men have been submissive to God. May I also point out that just as a woman is instructed to submit to her husband in marriage, she is also instructed to be ultimately obedient to God despite her husband's choices. Sorry ladies, we do not have that excuse, nor do I want it; I'm not that stupid. I would suggest that we always remember the ideal that we speak of and the difference between that and the reality that we live in. Women have the ultimate power according to God the way I see it. In that, she ultimately decides who gets to procreate and who doesn't. I think we've (I know I have) done a pretty lax job of that. If a man wants a woman to trust him that much and to have that much faith in him to marry him and to give to him that very heavy load of a responsibility in regard to her life and spirituality, then she has just as much of a responsibility that she chooses a husband for the right reasons, and chooses a man who is worthy, and is submissive to the Lord in everything, and who loves his wife as Jesus loves the Church, and who is pure in his love and committment and intentions. If the ideal would actually have ever, ever been realized (which is impossible for us at this time due to the fall of eve), then only those men who were perfect in the eyes of the Lord would ever get any. ;)



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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Lori,

I hope you don't mind my saying... Sometimes you can be a riot!!!


If the ideal would actually have ever, ever been realized (which is impossible for us at this time due to the fall of eve), then only those men who were perfect in the eyes of the Lord would ever get any.

You mean, you haven't found the "perfect" man yet???!!! :eek:

Maybe Whammy's the "one" for you? :rolleyes:

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

:D The only reason I quoted Timothy was to see if I could get everybody going, as long as you hadn't talked about it before.
So, sorry about the interruption.

T.S.,
You never responded to my answer of your question about which bible I read. King James Version. Number one selling book in the history of the planet.

Oh, bye the way, I'm happlied married. :D

------------------
Just got to have faith...
.........in whatever you believe in!!!

[This message has been edited by Whammy (edited January 02, 2000).]

uh..I.. well..... :) ok, ok... ya got me there...

Well... how has your activity been with God?
Does he interact with you a lot? Has he gone out of his way and taken the time to talk with you? If so...how often?

Proof is in my heart and...