Hi all..
Just wanted to know your views on Fate...destiny..
do you think that..each one is here for a purpose..
life and the world as we know it.. is it just an illusion..

i read someone say..that the truth shall set you free...

what is the truth?



:confused:

Free will+ heart= destiny :)

Hi anthariksh,

Welcome to sciforums.


Originally posted by anthariksh
Hi all..
Just wanted to know your views on Fate...destiny..
do you think that..each one is here for a purpose..
life and the world as we know it.. is it just an illusion..

i read someone say..that the truth shall set you free...

what is the truth? : Fate implies that whatever actions you take in life you will always reach a pre-determined ending. In this respect free-will and fate are mutually exclusive.

Fate also implies that determinism is in force. The philosophy of determinism says that for every effect there is a cause. So even your action of writing your post could be traced back by millions of years of causes and their effects. We can continue to go back to the beginning of time.

If there were a creator who had specific plans for everyone and who geared up the universe so that those plans would be achieved, then again human free will would have no meaning. That would be the meaning of fate – we would just be puppets.

But determinism and or a creator imply a beginning. But if the universe is infinite, i.e. has no boundaries, no beginning and no end; then there would be no starting point for a deterministic trace. Infinity also implies that everything is possible, or rather that there are an infinite number of possibilities within valid realities. Such a scenario opens up the possibilities that human free will is real and that our destiny is what we choose it to be, i.e. there is no fate.

So my understanding of current cosmology is that an infinite universe is looking increasingly likely. In which case, in the absence of any other credible theories, I would lean towards an infinite universe where fate does not exist and where human free will can lead us wherever we wish.

As for truth settings us free: It is an imprecise statement since it doesn’t state what truth is being measured, or from what we are being freed. So it is difficult to know how to respond. I believe that the more you know then the greater your freedom to make valid choices. Without knowledge you are condemned to irrationality and guesswork.

So bebelina how do make your equation work? If we assume that destiny is not pre-determined and that your destiny is what you choose it to be then I agree with your equation although I’d state it slightly differently –

Free will + passion + knowledge = destiny.

Our emotions play a large part in helping us set our goals and desires. Being free of outside influences in the form of free will gives us freedom to choose whatever we want, and knowledge helps us achieve those goals in whatever reality we find ourselves.

But if destiny implies fate then your equation cannot work since free will would be absent.

Cris

Hi thanks for your opinions on fate..

just pondered on a couple of more questions..
Free will..is it actually free will..since i think that the very essence of will is decision. And decision is related to a lot of factors. So eventhough one assumes free will to be free...is it?
i dont know whether that makes too much sense..

this surely does'nt..

Say..the destiny..i.e.the future depends on the present...then 'time travel' can never exist.??

Thanks again..

i am a believer in fate

but only to an extent.

i think that you need to make the right choices and get set on the right path by yourself. and then fate will take you the rest of the way.

its too scary of a thought to have a greater power controlling your life. because then that does bring up the issue of free will.

so i made that compromise. use what you have to get yourself to the point where fate will take you by the hand and assist you to destiny.

Fate = a post hoc belief so one aschews responsibility for one's actions.

Personally, I create my own fate, one decision at a time...

Hmm, interesting. So you see fate as an ad hoc- theory? Amusing thought though...:)

I believe that there are as many fates and destinies as there are decisions in a lifetime.
We do have free will, but once we make a single decision, we have moved off down a bifurcation on the path leading to the fates.
A failure to act after this point allows us to blunder through to one particular fate, but taking action will change your fate.
I hope this makes some sense!

you wouldn.t be here if ther wasn.t a fate

No, I did not say 'ad hoc', I said post hoc. After something goes usually unfavourably from the point of view of the believer, the idea of fate is invoked to take responsibility. If however, all goes well, it's usually the case that the believer takes responsibility. Funny how people are, isn't it?

Ahhh 'fate', escapism at it's weakest..

I do not subscribe to the "stronger" version of fate. Cris has provided an excellent definition of strong fate -

"Fate implies that whatever actions you take in life you will always reach a pre-determined ending. In this respect free-will and fate are mutually exclusive. "

IMO, the "weaker" form of fate exists. I cannot give a proper definition of weak fate, instead, I'd list words such as predispositions, fortune, "luck", "good genetics", etc. as examples of what I'm talking about.

To expand on that -

Do you know of ayone who seems to have an uncommon facility for something? A "natural". Isn't a statement that someone is a "natural athlete" in essense, an acknowledgement similar to "fate has favored him/her"?

Or do you know of someone who experiences a higher than average winning rate at games of chance. Could it be some sort of "fate" which gives that person an edge?

There is such thing a fate, although there are people that have been studying how to "change" their fate.

In a discussion we had previously on such a subject, I mentioned that i you could choose turning left instead of turning right (Your default choice) you could change your FATE LINE, but in reality when you get to a junction and choose a route, no matter how many times you try to randomly pick a path it will always be the path you wre destined to choose.

I suppose you could say it's like rolling CRAPS permanently.

Cris,

Shouldn't your equation should have one more element

Chance+Free will + passion + knowledge = destiny.

:D

I'd have to say free will is a matter of perspective, which kind of puts me in the undecided category until I determine the full implications of perspective. Let me just present this, however:

If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was travelling its way of its own accord on the strength of a resolution taken once and for all.

So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doing, smile about man's illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.

- Albert Einstein

Fate is nothing but a myth...

say that there is fate, then we will be able to see into the future because there is one, and so we will be able to change it because we know whats going to happen, and so it never was true because it was changed, interesting paradox... ey.

Concider This

This Thread sounds very similar to the one on "Hitler was a professed Christian"

Anyway:

The idea that we have either free will or fate is a matter of perspecitive.

<HR>
Free Will...
<HR>
It is one of two things, one it is an allision that has been pulled over our eyes, and thus we think we have free will, but really our free will is a direct effect of other causes. At the most basic level, everything we do is a cause of something else, and something that will effect other people's, (or our own) future. Either way, we are doing someting just because someone pulled a trigger and started a chain reaction of cause and effect.

or free will (as mentioned in another post) is real (meaning in existance) and everyting we do is baised soly on our own decisions with no input from other things. This is clearly not the case. ie. Would I be writing this on another post for no good reason? Of couce not, I would only write this where it would make sence (here on this Thread) but i didin't begin this post, so clearly I had help form the makers of this Tread, without them I wouldn't be writing this. This demonstrates the evidence of the first defination of free will.

Fate...
<HR>
If there is such a thing as fate, then there would be no free will. Fate would be, as described by Cris, "...whatever actions you take in life you will always reach a pre-determined ending..."

Or we can say that Fate itself doesn't exist. Hence proving the idea of free will. Which as mentioned eariler can't exist, therefore fate must exist.

<HR>
in conclusion

If we have free will, we have no fate.

~~~ or ~~~

If we don't have free will, we have fate.

It comes down to those two options.

i do believe in fate. i do i do. i believe everything happens for a reason.

Originally posted by Ender
Concider This

This Thread sounds very similar to the one on "HItler was a professed Christian"

Anyway:

The idea that we have either free will or fate is a matter of perspecitive.

<HR>
Free Will...
<HR>
It is one of two things, one it is an allision that has been pulled over our eyes, and thus we think we have free will, but really our free will is a direct effect of other causes. At the most basic leve, everything we do is a cause of something else, and something that will effect other peoples, (or our own) futures. Either way, we are doing someting just because someone pulled a trigger and started a chain reaction.

or free will (as mentioned in another post) is real (meaning in existance) and everyting we do is baised soly on our own decisions with no inout from other things. This is clearly not the case. ie. Would I be writeing this on another post for no good reason? Of couce not, I would only write this where it would make sence (here on this post) but i didin't begin this post, so clearly I had help form the makers of this Tread, without them i wouldn't be writing this. This demonstrates the evidence of the first defination of free will.

Fate...
<HR>
If there is such a thing as fate, there ther would be no free will. fate would be as described by Cris "...whatever actions you take in life you will always reach a pre-determined ending..."

Or we can say that Fate itself doesn't exist proving the idea of free will. Which as mentioned eariler can't exist, therefore fate must exist.

<HR>
in conclusion

If we have free will, we have fate.

~~~ or ~~~

If we don't have free will, we don't have fate.

It comes down to those two options.

how about, we do have free will (obviously we do) but we dont have fate.
?

Concider This

Sorry that's what I ment to say in the last thing, I have edited that. Thankyou for pointing out my fatel flaw.

no worries sexy.

Concider this



we do have free will (obviously we do)

This statement cannot be proven. How can you be so sure that we have free will when you haven't taken both "choices" when you came to a cross roads.

I'm not saying that we do not have free will, but I'm not saying we do. All I'm saying is that its a possibility that we don't.

<HR>

You on the other hand believe that we do have free will because...? ... We just do? sounds convincing to me (grins at the screen)

hmmmmm. interesting.
but isnt the notion of free will proven simply by the fact that we CAN stand at the cross roads?

Yes you can stand at a crossroads but which crossroads are you standing at and which fork will you take.

Take for example (yes this is a corney example but its the one which poped into my head)

Im walking along a street passed a bar

I decide to walk on or go in

I walk in and meet the girl i eventually marry

i don't i am still single

Fate or Luck - samething

We have no free will about the past. We can't change what we did yesterday... the past, as soon as it becomes the past, becomes deterministic. We only have free will for the particular moment. So, I'd say that our perspective of being at a point in time is essentially what defines the notion of free will for us.

Concider this

If you are at a crros roads, you can only take the path that you choose. Right?

Why did you choose that path? Free will, or was choosing that path a rireect effect of something else you ,or someone else did before?

In the debate of free will, nothing can be proven, nor diproven. So we can never knoe if we have free will, but it might appear that way to you.

Fate is limited choices. We pick our destiny.

Concider this

It would appear that fate and destiny are the same thing. Saying that


Fate is limited choices. We pick our destiny

Is contridicting itself. Sorry ismu.

i understand what your saying, but i find the idea of a 'guiding hand' to be very unplausable. i mean, sit at you computer and pick up either your left hand or your right hand. the choice is there for the making, and its YOU who makes it. our actions are brought about as a result of our reason, and reason constitutes free will. if a guiding hand were to be present, then this would signify some divine presence mediating humanity. if the divine is present, why would it guide adolf into slaughtering 3 million jews or and of the other atrocities mankind has suffered? i dont believe it. but yes i will concede that it is inevitably unprovable either way. you are right. but really. EVERYTHING is unprovable if you want to be scroupuless. for the sake of an analysis you have to make a distinction.

would you consed that its posable that there maybe something that gives us a little nudge every once in a while (like the pub thing)

no i will not :D

i think its a random lottery of meaninglessness and beyond my hopes there are no reasons.

if thats the way you want to view it then we are all very lucky people

how do you suppose?

Originally posted by Ender
Concider this

It would appear that fate and destiny are the same thing. Saying that
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fate is limited choices. We pick our destiny
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is contridicting itself. Sorry ismu.

Not exactly contradicting. See this way:
My fate is have A,B,C and D choices. I have a chance to choose my destiny to be A,B,C or D. But not E -- Z.
Your fate could be C,E and G. You can't get into destiny like i have.

If we choose one of our destiny, lets say B, there are others fate prepared for it. Just like a structure of folders in your Windows Explorer. My fate is drive C, your fate is drive D, and so on...

Concider this

ismu, fate is the endpoint of your life or an endpoint of a set of decisions. Having a set of decisions, is not fate.

What you call destiny, I refer to as fate. Really it comes down to a matter of opinion.

Asguard,

would you consed that its posable that there maybe something that gives us a little nudge every once in a while (like the pub thing)

Are you refering to a god? I'm an athiest, so I think that there is nothing that gives us a "nudge" in either directione.


Bohemian Nightmare,

i mean, sit at you computer and pick up either your left hand or your right hand. the choice is there for the making, and its YOU who makes it

The reason that I lifted my hane was because you told be to lift my hand. Therefore it is an example of "Cause and Effect Will"
if you don't nudderstand what i mean by this "Cause and Effect Will" read some of my earlier posts.

No i wasn't refering to a god although is you belive in god that would explaine fate, all i ment was that somethings maybe MENT to happen. I don't know how cause and effect would work with my example.

The two best justifications I see for determinism are that science seems to presuppose it and make use of it, and also that if you treat time as just another dimension then it seems almost necessary.

We apply determinism to the interaction of planets and stars, molecules, atoms, essentially everything around us. We presume there are causes for all their actions... we don't say they have free will. We're made of the same stuff they are, so why should we have free will in a true way? As Einstein said, it's more an illusion of limited perspective. If we had a higher view we could see causal reasons for why we want to do the things we want to do.

From a four dimensional perspective, things are certainly deterministic. The 4-D world would be static. We'd look at the 4-D world and see no gaps anywhere, no moment of time that didn't follow logically from the previous moment in time, and that would show determinism correct. If free will were involved there'd have to be gaps where certain parts of moments in time -- namely the parts around people -- didn't directly follow from the previous moments. It's rather hard to conceive of how that could work, considering there aren't any gaps in the other dimensions we know. (Imagine if height or width became discontinuous in certain areas around people. :D)

In a practical limited perspective sense we have free will, but since our choices are all part of the deterministic reality that leaves us without any real sense of free will.

Concider this


don't know how cause and effect would work with my example.

CAUSE:

sit at you computer and pick up either your left hand or your right hand

EFFECT:
I lifted up my hand.

Sorry that wasn't my example mine was the pub one

Say I were to look into the future and see that I had become a millionaire. I have only looked at that perticular moment in time so I have no idea how I became a millionaire. If I were to go back to my own time period, quit school, quit my job and spend my time sleeping and watching TV would I still become a millionaire? If fate were to exist, I would become a millionaire no matter what I did. However, what if I were to go forward in time a few minutes and see that I lifted my left arm. If I were to go back to my own time period and at the moment I was suppose to lift my left arm, lift my right arm instead, would that be considered free will? And if free will were to exist, traveling forward in time would be not possible. Not "not possible" in the sence that we don't have a conceivable way of traveling forward in time but not possible because the future does not exist. If free will were true then the future would not exist because it has not been determined yet. There would only be the past and the present. Unless of course the future were like that episode of Star Trek the Next Generation in which there are an infinite number of futures, each with its own little changes.

anthariksh,


do you think that..each one is here for a purpose..

Yes... we are here to Live and to Love...


life and the world as we know it.. is it just an illusion..

Yes... :)


i read someone say..that the truth shall set you free...

Yes... :D


what is the truth?

Love... and Love is God... ;)

:D:D:D:D

Have you been reading my posts...?

About fate... God have plans to you... His plans is the ideal life for you. But it's YOU that choose rather you'll have it or not. That's your free will. You are a Child of God, not a slave. So, you can choose your destiny.

Love,
Nelson

The belief of fate is loaded with presuppositions that defy logic and empiricism and, like religion, offers a comforting rationale for reconciling oneself to their lives and the unknown future. It seems to me that if one is truly resigned to their fate, they must also believe in an order or design to the universe which is dictated by a higher power or supreme force of some sort. It's not so much a matter of one's own freewill and freedom to make choices for themselves but the orchestration of all the countless variables beyond our control. I don't think anyone believes that everything that happens to them is determined solely by their own choices and if so, they have taken on quite a sizable burden of responsibility and accountability. What we commonly refer to as luck is the occurrence of events beyond our influence and control which happen to go in our favor. I think one can take responsibility for the circumstances of their lives while embracing the fact that there are always random factors and events beyond their control greatly affecting them. It's hard to accept that aside from our own choices, the rest of what dictates the events and circumstances of our lives are often purely random occurrences. I've found that there are some things I am simply unable, through all the willpower and concentrated intensity, to make happen. I can submit to the caprice of a random universe which can be rather despairing, or imagine that all things happen the way they do for a reason and things happen when they're meant to. In other words, trust in fate. Admittedly, with regard to certain aspects of my life, I like the notion that things happen in their time for their own reasons and I acknowledge that such a belief implies some sort of design and order to the universe which I don't whole-heartedly believe. Wrestling with my belief in faith is another sign that there is an instinct within myself that wants and maybe even needs faith in a higher order to the universe and/or dare I say God. The ongoing battle within to believe in or deny the existence of God.

Ah hell here we go....


Fate : if you believe that all is preordained, then you may as well go grab yourself a gun and shoot you in the head. you're a mindless robot, something which exists only to live a predetermined path and then die at the end of it. No-one who is religious could ever believe in such a thing, it's only us atheists who can even entertain the possibility of the existence of fate. If you live out your destiny, then you've done what you were intended to do, and therefore you're a tool. If you shoot yourself in the head, then ... well... likewise. That was just your fate after all ;)
fate or destiny is a pointless exercise, one which has no practical application. If you're religious, do you really believe your higher power has set up a boardgame which has all the moves and results planned out in advance? How incredibly boring. this is where I have contention with the "God is all-knowing, and all-seeing" bit they preach at me... if so, God would want to opt out ASAP for lack of inspiration or motivation. The poor being would have self-destructed from boredom long since if it was so.

Free will : We all HAVE to believe this in order to survive. If you DON'T believe in free will then you're a robot.. see above, shooting yourself in the head included. If you DO... then you believe that we all can make a difference one way or another. it's what you choose to DO with that free will which is the key. Whether you're religious or not, if you dont believe in free will then you might as well go cap yourself right now, because your life would mean absolutely NOTHING without it, except as a catalyst to make someone who DOES have free will do something to improve the quality of HIS life.

This is hard to describe (my opinion on this only resently changed)

I don't belive that we have no say in anything but i don't belive that my finding TI could possably been coicadance

For starters i would like to say i met her on ICQ

I had been just atomaticly ignoring people at the time (because i kept getting porn things insted of people)

I just HAPPEND to deside to respond to her

She just HAPPENS to be a red head a thing that drives me wild

she HAPPENS to be intelegent another thing i find exstremly atractive (i don't like stupidity)

She and I just HAPPEND to be single

I just HAPPEN to have glasses which SHE likes

We both hate summer and like winter

er i had a huge list but can't think of them all off the top of my head

So after looking at all that i don't belive we have no choice but i think we were MENT to met eachother

Asguard....

It may all SEEM like it was fate... but if you had not responded to her, then you would not have met her. You might have even met someone else further down the line.

What probably happened was, you met someone at a time in your life when you were ready to do so, as was she. A very happy coincidence. YOU made the choice to meet though, didnt you? if you met on icq then SOMEONE had to offer to meet somewhere, and then compatability follows, or not. My point here is that BOTH of you made a conscious choice to take things further.

Do you really want to believe that some higher power set you up to breed (maybe ;) ) with someone they chose for you? I breed fish myself... and pick out the ones i think will produce what i desire. Hopefully you dont think some entity is doing this with you? what a terrible thought....

Originally posted by Gabalawi
I don't think anyone believes that everything that happens to them is determined solely by their own choices and if so, they have taken on quite a sizable burden of responsibility and accountability.

What we commonly refer to as luck is the occurrence of events beyond our influence and control which happen to go in our favor. It seems to me that you are saying that fate is not predetermination, but predisposition. And in this, I'd agree wiht you completely.

Besides "luck", whenever we say "genetics", "talented", "gifted", etc, we are actually refering to predisposition/fate.

Originally posted by Gabalawi
I think one can take responsibility for the circumstances of their lives while embracing the fact that there are always random factors and events beyond their control greatly affecting them. Often the random factors exert far greater influence than what we claim to "control".

Originally posted by Gabalawi
I've found that there are some things I am simply unable, through all the willpower and concentrated intensity, to make happen. To all the posters who have spoken against the concept of fate - Can you say that you have FULL control over all aspects of your life? :) I'm sure all of us have experienced to varying extents, what Gaba is saying...

Originally posted by Gabalawi
.... I acknowledge that such a belief implies some sort of design and order to the universe which I don't whole-heartedly believe. I disagree with the "design and order" bit, but would tend to agree with most of the rest.

Can you say that you have FULL control over all aspects of your life?

We can have control within physical boundries.

Plus, just because we don't have complete control over everyting doens't mean that there is fate.

While sitting at your computer raise your right hand...



NOw did you raise your hand because it was your fate, or did you raise your hand because you wanted to?

No, what i was thinking closer to something like soulmates or whatever. You know perfect companion that sort of thing.

Originally posted by Ender
Plus, just because we don't have complete control over everyting doens't mean that there is fate. Yes. But what I'm saying is that the very fact that we do not have control over all aspect of our lives, is a form of "fate".

The fact that there we may be pre-disposed towards one thing or another (talent, genetics, "luck", whatever ) - this predisposition is what I would describe as "fate".

What you describe about raising the right hand, that seems to go more towards mere determinism ie. if the universe is deterministic. If I'm not mistaken, what physics says is that the universe is not deterministic - and I have no argument with that.

But OTOH, to argue that there is NO predispostion, or that sheer willpower and determination can overcome predispositon.... That is just an idealist speaking. The idealist idea at work here seems to stem from the oft quoted line - "all men are equal ...".

The fact is - we are not equal. There may be matters in which I have an advantage on you, as there will be areas where you outshine me. If I were to insist that with sufficient training and determination - I could beat Kasparov at chess, I would be proven wrong, as would you.

This inequality between Kasparov and me, is what I see as "fate".

Indeed Barney, no thinking person is going to accept any notion that denies their autonomy and self-determination and no amount of faith and devotion toward any higher power would preclude them from acting upon their own volition. It may be that in times tragedy and desperation people invoke the will of God and leave matters of which they have or feel no sense of control, in his hands. It may be that we use the word fate to account for all the occurrences, events and coincedents that have or may have an impact in the way things turn out for us. It also serves as a concept which suggests order by way of a grand scheme unfolding for each of our lives. Perhaps we can agree that each individuals fate is ultimately determined by the choices they make.

Originally posted by Gabalawi
...as a concept which suggests order by way of a grand scheme unfolding for each of our lives. Perhaps we can agree that each individuals fate is ultimately determined by the choices they make. Gaba,

While I have a certian sympathy to the idea of fate, as you described it, and I modestly expanded on, I don't share your idea of "grand scheme" or "design".

IOW, I think there may be something like "fate", but not any author/controller of fate.

What do you suppose is behind the "grand scheme unfolding for each of our lives"?

What I'm alluding to is the idea that things happen in our lives for a reason. Now I don't claim to have an explanation as far as how and why or who orchestrates the events of our lives into a meaningful continuum. I'm only asserting that it's something we like to believe if for no other reason than for the comfort it allows us and temperance toward the events that might otherwise be disparaging. This is one of those concepts that ultimately relies on one's faith in some sort of higher power or force that dictates an order to the universe. :confused: Do you believe that most of us need some sort of consolation for our misfortune? Whether or not I admit it, I occasionally find myself entertaining ideas that fly in the face of my own intellect and rationale to offer something other than what my mind tells me of a chaotic universe and an essentially meaningless, purposeless existence. It is what I make of it, what I carve into the blank slate of a perpetually random, pointless world and nothing more. I'd love a grand happy scheme guaranteeing me all I need in due time, but I can't buy it yet. I need a miracle.

Originally posted by Gabalawi
What I'm alluding to is the idea that things happen in our lives for a reason. Now I don't claim to have an explanation as far as how and why or who orchestrates the events of our lives into a meaningful continuum. :) Fair enough.

Originally posted by Gabalawi This is one of those concepts that ultimately relies on one's faith in some sort of higher power or force that dictates an order to the universe. :confused: Do you believe that most of us need some sort of consolation for our misfortune? No. Atleast not me. In fact, I find it the exact opposite.

To me it seems somewhat insulting to be a cog in the machinery of some grand design. It would give me no comfort whatsoever to subscribe to any ideas about a greater power orchestrating things.

Originally posted by Gabalawi
Whether or not I admit it, I occasionally find myself entertaining ideas that fly in the face of my own intellect and rationale to offer something other than what my mind tells me of a chaotic universe and an essentially meaningless, purposeless existence. While the world/universe may be completely random/chaotic, my experience is that surprising patterns exist in human affairs.

By that, I mean concepts such as "lucky", do really apply to some ppl. And it applies in a consistent way - far over what the "law of averages" might predict...

To be honest, I experience little relief or consolation from such grandiose faith-based concepts which is reflected in everything about me. Every so often I'll try out a different outlook such as resigning particular aspects of my life to fate. It's actually my attempt to emulate some wise, ascetic character real or fictitious, who finds solace and resolve through his faith. In a way I envy such conviction which, despite what is actually occurring, is strong enough to endure and accept the sometimes tragic events of life. It's always a fleeting fancy and deep down I never buy it. It's like a shadow that is always there, looming somewhere to remind me of the triviality of our endeavors and occupations. Clearly they have their pragmatic functions as they provide us a living but as I sit in a cube in a 30 story office building surrounded by others, so little of what immerse ourselves in has any real reflection or relevance to what it is we actually are. Sorry for being gloomy but I find it hard to accept sometimes. "Existing nothing but existing." Jimi

Originally posted by Gabalawi
It's always a fleeting fancy and deep down I never buy it. That's a very positive sign :), it shows a definite intelligence that refuses to be drowned no matter how hard the possessor tries. :D

If it's true that "deep down you never buy it", then I'd suppose the best step foward would be to stop trying it on for size. But that is ultimately your personal descision to make. I apologise for proposing solutions, but according to psych studies, it's the No. 1 bad habit of the male everywhere... so I blame it on those damn chromosomes.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean when you say you resign "parts of you life" to fate. Perhaps we are on the same track, but I feel almost no sorrow whatsoever in acknowleging that fate has treated me differently from my friends ...

Somehow that acknowledgment is problematic for you ....

Our porpouse is simply to be, to exsist and live our lives in the way we see fit. No predestinatiion. If there is a God then its to live and love, if not then its to further our race. Or maybe Earth is a huge supercomputer gathering data on relationships/hardships/being ....... then again maybe not.

Originally posted by Cactus Jack
Our porpouse is simply to be, to exsist and live our lives in the way we see fit. No predestinatiion. If there is a God then its to live and love, if not then its to further our race. Or maybe Earth is a huge supercomputer gathering data on relationships/hardships/being ....... then again maybe not. T&C? is that not where some serial killa did 20 girls or so?

Simply "being" is what we essentially live for it's just that most of us are really bad at it. It's that damn disease of consciousness, man's curse as I think it might've been Dostoyevsky described it that gets in the way. And what is "meaningful" would be that in which we can completely and naturally immerse ourselves. Those periods of time, sometimes merely moments when we lose our self-awareness while we're actively participating in our lives not necessarily "doing" anything but being as opposed to reflective thinking or ruminating. Of course, if that's all we did or could do, we wouldn't be human. For us it's not just being but becoming which is when all the fun stuff :D happens and the wondering . :confused: