Admittedly I noticed something that had a topic similar within one of the religion postings, but It I think was asked there due to the nature of how it's question unfolded.

I wanted to ask everybody here if they think they have Free will or are coasting along a pre-determined path?

I know from my experiences that we take free will for granted, in reality we might do what we think is spontaneous or sporadic, but in reality it's either calculatible/tangible or can been seen if using particular devices.

This means that everybody actually follows a pre-determined path, for instance:

If you had the ability to see 1/2 an hour into the future, you could get the winning numbers of a lottery and pretty much get a ticket for it. When the lottery starts, as long as you haven't interfered in any way with the way the balls roll, you will get the exact same numbers. (When you look at it, this would occur like a parallel of eternities.)

Of course you could throw some free will and perhaps chaos into it, as perhaps originally you didn't win the lottery, you didn't originally have the correct numbers, but now you have changed your destiny and path, at your discression. But the rest of the world that is oblivious to your equipment is still following their predetermined patterns.

Perhaps you have an understanding of how I mean, or have something to add?

yes.. i think i understand what your saying....
i dont think anything can be pre-destined really..


If you had the ability to see 1/2 an hour into the future, you could get the winning numbers of a lottery and pretty much get a ticket for it.

now, if you could see that half hour, then you would be seeing what would happen, sort of the predestined..... but then.. you could also change that destiny.... so nothing would be predestined to begin with..... :confused:

hm.. i hope that wasn't to confusing. -laughs- :P

Sure it is predetermined but think of it this way.

God knows what's going to happen, right, time is basically an illusion of space, I believe. So basically he knows what your free will is going to be, based on all external variables, but you nor anyone else knows about it. Strange concept to grasp, but I hope I explained my opinion clearly. BTW I didnt read any of the other posts I just wrote my opinion down so if I'm repeating anything then I apologize.

There's another post in the General Philiosophy section dealing with the theme (Determinism).

Basically put - there is no free will, it's an illusion. To have free will is to have the ability to 'do otherwise'. In the history of planet earth no being has ever 'done otherwise'. Looks like free will is impossible....

The more that i type, the more i wonder if this is an opinion or just a series of more questions.... it started as an opinion... but ended sas me having no clue what i was talking about... so enjoy! :P

yes, however, that is saying that there is a god. ......

and..
how could you pssibly prove that somone chose otherwise.. can you cant chose what you didn't choses...

you have to choices: A and B
you have the choice to chose A
you have the choice to chose B
its up to you.
now lets say.. you know from the future you were going to chose A
so, instead, you chose B.
does that mean that you changed the outcome. or was there really a master plan, and the out come was supposed to be B... so you were SUPPOSED to know that you chose A and changed your mind to chose B.

and how personal does free will have to be.
i have the free will to go where i want, and eat what i want.. and most of the time think what i want. and i consider that free will... but is it pre planned free will?
-laughs- this could go on forever......

I posted a message earlier tonight on another thread that caused me to think this in response to the question"determinism or free will?" Just because we have the ability to construct mental alogrithims of what could have been does not neccessarily mean that what IS, was by default, potentially subject to modification by past actions.
Free will and determinism have relevance to an organism only in that it is an adaptive trait to be able to determine what "could have been" so that future behavior can be modified into a pre-determined mold of what "should be". Very adaptive. That is why we have carpet shampoo and tupperware and cockroaches have the 101010 of on/off switches of attraction and repulsion. But for the cockroaches, that has been a very adaptive trait indeed. Ultimately, I guess, it is only a matter of what gets the job done. The pyramids were built by sun worhipping ancients who would not have even a clue as to how to start a car, let alone know what a car was or what it was used for(although if they had been presented with one they may have very well figured it out). Yet today it would be very "maladaptive" to lack such crucial knowledge. Mabye what I am trying to say is, that the natural next step in unique ability of humans(and some primates and birds) to transmit extragenetic knowledge on to their offspring was to evolve the ability to store it in other mediums such as paper and magnetic floppy disk. That ability, I think, may have arrived hand in hand with the almost quantum ability of the human mind to construct "possibilities". Randomness gets us to where we find ourselves. The calculation of many possible "presents" provides us with a highly advantagous ability to alter our possible future with behavior that will place us in an environment that provides the least pressure and subsequently pleasure is achieved as an adaptive award for a successfully produced alogrithim. Hell, I don't know. I am just trying to describe the indescribable. We are now the only species, that I know of, that arrives in world dependent on extragenetic knowledge. All that extragenetic knowledge contains a great deal of "could have beens". That provides us with a rich set of"can and should be's" Adaptive? Yes. Maladaptive? Yes.(Somewhere, in a potential future, a mushroom cloud vibrates indistinctly and blurred within the quanta of possibility.....)

In the last billion years, did Earth going about its way with Free Will in hand or was it pre-determined? If you can prove that one way or the other, then you have the answer.

It's an intriguing question. A bit paradoxical in my mind, and though I'd like to agree with the philosophic way of no free will, I'd say that the most interesting part of life lies at the edge of predeterminism, where the predeterminism is not obvious. So my conclusion is, predetermined, very likely, but certainly not obvious. Life follows a predetermined path, but it's not predictable nor obvious.

From a personal perspective it I sit on the fence.:D

There have been times in my life when I have felt that I have total free will to do anything I please.

Then there have been times that I have felt I was somehow locked into a path like a race car on a race track. No options but to follow the track to the finish.

How to know the difference?

the question of freedom is not, to do anything you like to do, but to know what you really want, and through that knowledge you are free. Most people donīt know what they really want and leave the path of freedom, then it gets hard to come back on the track.
Freedom is not, to follow all instincts (and call that "freedom"), such as hate, or hunger, but to be aware of the instinct and to choose freely.
Greetings, Philantroph

This question should be rephrased into "do you belive in fate?" in which case id have to say yes, but that does not mean i cant change it in any which way i see fit.

I believe neither.

Free will is an illusion of separateness perpetrated by our conscious minds as is linear time.

Kmguru, it was you i think that said somewhere else something about our unconscious all being connected? That's why.

whf

Causality tells that everything happens for a reason: every cause has its effect(s). Maybe our thoughts are the effects of many causes. Maybe every second in our lifes is pre-determined by a multitude of such causes, that are far too many for us to calculate.

Maybe (just maybe) we're nothing but some sort of mechanism, a kind of perpetuum mobile that evolves in time following a precise and well-defined way.

Just a thought...

Free will exists as a guardian too our destiny. :)

I also believe in free will but that wasn't the point of my previous post.

But now I am. :)

I guess one of the curses/blessings with forums is that you discuss the same things over and over again, because new members join and want to discuss the same matters. :)

But I liked what you were suggesting though, very much like my own theory of how the collective consciousness works. That every though gets manifested somehow, somewhere, just because it was thought.

Or wait, now that I re-read you post, I see that you said that every thought is the effect of many causes. Well yes, that they are too. The cause is primarily creativity and will to express and understand and to communicate.

And I guess we are mechanisms too, but very carefully designed by our souls to fit the purpose of the physical experience.

In his Foundation series, Isaac Asimov talked about a new science, called Psychohistory (hope I translated it right), science that suggests the possibility of predicting the direction of the future evolution of humanity. Note that these are SF books, so what happened there is not real, it's just a supposition. Still, Asimov's idea is interesting, because that way of predicting the future is based on mathematical relations and... anyway, it seemed very real. Only one thing doesn't fit in the picture: the free will. Because if we accept that the future is predictable, we have to accept that there is no such thing as free will, also.
But again, that's SF.

I was just wondering how close is Asimov's idea to the reality. Hari Seldon, the character that invented the Psychohistory, said that it doesn't apply to individuals, but to masses of people. But (speaking of individuals) I wonder if our actions (and thoughts) aren't just a consequence of multiple factors - therefore predictable. I guess we'll never know, because nobody can calculate all the possible factors that might have influenced us to make a decision, take an action etc. So, the existence of free will remains - from this point of view - questionable.

..read the book then. :) My mother is a big fan of Asimov, so she most likely is in possesion of it. And according to her, Asimov is not just a science fiction author, she thinks heīs a great visionary. I think I have read some of his books during my childhood, but that was a long time ago and the memory is fading...:p

The problem with the religious argument is that they refuse to admit to the logic that you can't have free will and an all knowing God or supreme being, because one negates the other. Any being superior to us must have less than all the information or we are not truely free.

Twilight

Asimovs idea on Psychohistory is not new. The eastern philosophy has two items: Karma and Cause-Effect. While Karma is nothing but determinism, Cause-Effect may be same as Chaos theory or Psychohistory.

Take for example the collapse of USSR. A lot of factors influences the effect and I predicted that in 1984 when I was in China, while understanding about the Chinese process. It was not difficult because one can use fuzzy logic math with no more than 50 parameters that gave me a 78% probabilities of the fall. It could have gone higher if I had 100 parameters.

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The problem with the religious argument is that they refuse to admit to the logic that you can't have free will and an all knowing God or supreme being, because one negates the other. Any being superior to us must have less than all the information or we are not truely free.
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Just a comment: Is there ANY part of religion that makes sense? I mean just in christianity there are about 2563 contradictions just in OT and NT. Many religions are based upon OT but no religions are the same. This should perhaps be in another thread but really, if there was a god, why would he go to such lengths to make sure that no one can be sure what to believe in? And why all the trouble to prove that he does not exist? I mean, should Darwin ever have been born if God REALLY wanted us to believe he created us? Ok to free will granted by god, but if he was allknowing to begin with he should have known what darwin would do and thus never created him. I have a bunch of those examples. Proove me wrong.

So back to this thread: I believe in free will. In the original posting the question said "if i could look half an hour into the future..."(or something like that), if you COULD look half an hour into the future there would be no free will, just destiny. But hey, it is impossible for a reason. And the reason is free will.:p

So many people from Sweden are coming here all of a sudden. :)

I can prove you wrong however...but...nah...I feel lazy today. So you can feel safe in your belief...for now. :D

I think things are predetermined except when it comes to awareness. Everything happens for a reason. Every effect has a cause, there are no "causes without effects." But when it comes to awareness, you are able to make desicions. You're not just reacting to things based on certain laws, you can actually think and are self aware. As soon as cosciousness comes into play, outcomes are uncertain. There is free will, so our fate is uncertain. There is no predetermined fate.


I believe neither.

Free will is an illusion of separateness perpetrated by our conscious minds as is linear time.Can you explain this?

As soon as cosciousness comes into play, outcomes are uncertain. There is free will, so our fate is uncertain. There is no predetermined fate.

On a micro level, that may be true. But on a cosmic scale, your free-will will not make a dent. Outcomes are given such as the Earth's rotation or the ice age or the earthquake irrespective of your conscious action.

Before man's consciousness, whose free-will it was or is for the natural plant and animal life to exist in balance? Then why man is separate from that reality? OR is it?

Looking further at the universe through a method of discovery harnessed through exploration. I truly believe that everything has some predetermined path that it follows.

The universes creation even the big bang came into being because it was predetermined from what I can see.

This of course means we continue in our lives unless challenged oblivious to predetermined paths and choose to view it as "chance".

Relativity casts aside chance.

Here is an experiment that anyone can watch. Sometime in the next ten years, there will be a major earthquake close to Gaza in middle east. Now, if it happens - should we say it is free will that is the cause or is it pre-determined?

Countdown just started....

Their is a Sherlock Holmes story written by Arthur Conan Doyle its called "The Future Engine" in it moriarty gets his hands on this, what is essentialy a big calculator, "Future Engine" and it can work out whats gonig to happen in the future (useing mathematics) for the stock market or something. anyways id like to have one of those:)

Acerbus

I would hazard a guess that it was based upon the Babbage Engine which never actually got built, but is pretty much an ancestor to the calculator and the computer.

Even Colossus the computer used in cracking the Enigma code was based upon Babbages engine. At the End of the Second world war it was "Decommissioned" (destroyed) at Churchills command. Probably the very fear of that Sherlock Holmes book.

Now adays our world is run by such technology... Predetermined?

For some reason I seem to remember something about the Babbage Engine having been built not too long ago (UK?).

Take care.

PS Found it: <a href=http://www.museums.reading.ac.uk/vmoc/babbage/><font color=RED>Babbage Engine</font></a>

Sorry, i haven't been paying attention.

What i meant, Alpha, was that if time itself is illusion, and i'm not alone in thinking that it is, then 'predetermined' is meaningless. What happens now is determined now, and the causes which appear to make it logical will appear to have happened, just as in dreams. This would mean that the effect will actually have caused the cause 'retrospectively'.

I think we'v all been here before.
Its all predetermined, although you would never notice it as your too busy walking down that predetermined path.

Originally posted by whatsherface
Sorry, i haven't been paying attention.

What i meant, Alpha, was that if time itself is illusion, and i'm not alone in thinking that it is, then 'predetermined' is meaningless. What happens now is determined now, and the causes which appear to make it logical will appear to have happened, just as in dreams. This would mean that the effect will actually have caused the cause 'retrospectively'. Thanks! That's a very interesting theory that I had completely forgotten about.

"We have to believe in free will. We have no choice", Isaac B. Singer :)

Free will and predermination aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

If we have a free will doesn't mean that our nature wouldn't make us pick the same choice every time in the same exact circumstances.

Prior knowledge of the future would change the circumstance and likey the outcome.

Speaking from the perspective of a mechanistic scientific prediction of the future from a complete description of today put into a perfectly accurate sceintific model - the problem is we know that attempting to gather fine grained information actually alters what would happen. So the necessary information can't be gathered. The world is highly non-linear, so any lack of precision in the information makes our uncertainty about possible predictions grow with how far into the future we attempt to predict.


I have free will - even to change my nature, but my willing a change in my nature was part of my previous nature.

Also the environment impinges on our choices so there are certainly changes in our nature that do not follow from our nature necessarily in its pristine state.

At least that's what I'm predetermined to say do to my free will ; )

I read most of the replies, till they got too complicated! My question is, if fate is actually foretold, then why would God design all the evil crimes taking place by the hands of people in the world?