God Is Perfect, therefore He could for-see the future and choose to not allow evil in any form to ever exist. Why did he choose not to do so? The best answer i ever got to that question came from the Arch-Bishop of Chicago. He said to me, "My Son, if you and i knew the answer to that question we would both be sitting at the right hand of the Almighty Himself". Great answer and totally acceptable. Honest and uncomplicated. BB FL

This post:

9/10 on the dipshit-o-meter

Which God?

I'd like to point out that the Arch-Bishop did not give you an answer, what he told you was that he doesn't know.

~Raithere

remember god gave us free will. and evil is also caused by satan.

Your reply is entirely welcome. For a few minutes i was sure i had gotten into some kind of an undesirable chat room. Yes most of us have free will and yes, evil is caused by satan. There-in lies the Catch-22. Who created satan? Thank you very much for your NICE! reply. BB FL

HAIL SATAN!!!!

SATAN TOLD ME YOUR GONNA BURN IN HELL!!!

Originally posted by edgar
remember god gave us free will. and evil is also caused by satan.


Huh?:bugeye: what do you mean????? Are you implying that free will is relative to Satan????;)


Is god perfect??? if i knew i would be rich now wouldn't i:cool:

Just because there is evil and suffering in the world doesn't mean god is at fault. If , technically god created us, then he/she might have created evil all along with it. Maybe god planned to have evil and suffering coincide with humanity. How do we know we are not just parts in a giant cosmic experiment and god is the scientist.....the evil being the conditioned stimulus and the reaction of humans being the unconditioned stimulus. Evil could be Operant conditioning being undertaken by god on humans. Here's the most fearful thought of all...How do we know God is good?

Doom go boom!

Originally posted by Billy Boy
Doom go boom!

What you too wuss and dipshit to actually bother swearing!

Now why do you go and say Satan is evil? Break down the events in the bible by what harm was done to humanity by each entity, God and Satan. After you do so, go ahead and tell us all what you found out!;)

okay heres the one BIGGEST THING satan did. He led humans into temptation. If it werent for that, we woudl be living in paradise. God also punished the israelilites IF they broke his commandments. He also punished other people for their wickedness twoard other etc., etc.

Here is what a fellow forum member put together after he picked out events out of the bible:


Originally posted by notme2000
Ok, lately I have been entertaining the idea that God is infact the evil one, and Satan is the savior, but God has kept him subdued through dogma. So let's just compare the two... Feel free to add any you can think of for either side, or make any point you see relavant.

God:
[list=1]
Strikes a man down with lightning for donating to church when he does not believe in it (for lying to God)
Drowns the entire planet with a great flood
Kills the first born child of every egyption without BLOOD on their door
Destroys a pure man's life (Jobe)
Spreads many plagues and diseases that kill over MILLIONS of people
Preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.
Personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah)
Hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside
With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people
With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly
With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men
"As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends"
Human sacrifice is condoned
Makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses
Causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious
Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...."
Orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)
Afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts,"
Strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed
Is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle
Judges your life and decides if you spend eternity in the blissful heaven as a reward for following him, or the fiery depths of hell for forsaking him...
[/list=1]
Satan:
[list=1]
Gives man the gift of knowledge
Tries to persue man to leave God (which, after the previous list, seems like the right thing to do)
[/list=1]

So it seems to me God is a power hungry being that tries to control the human race through fear, ignorance, dogma and the promise of heaven or the threat of hell. Satan tries to get us to open our eyes to God's deceit, and live our lives as our own. So who's the good guy and who's the bad guy!?

I know I'm about to get eaten alive by the christians on this site... Let's try to keep things civil... :eek:

Originally posted by edgar
okay heres the one BIGGEST THING satan did. He led humans into temptation. If it werent for that, we woudl be living in paradise. God also punished the israelilites IF they broke his commandments. He also punished other people for their wickedness twoard other etc., etc.

god has killed tons of people, he is pretty evil too.
Why would he allow evil in his creation, its a pretty shitty thing to do if you ask me.
I think True Wisdom had some good godly points there: god is crap.
The reason god is crap is because man is crap, and man created god to try to explain, well, to explain all the naturally occuring crap that exists in life.

Doom- calm down man, it'll be cool, just go take a midol or something you spazoid

ZERO MASS

p.s. this poll is crap

OMG THAT IS SUCH BLASPHEMOUS!!!!!(picks up inhaler and takes 20 sleeping pills)



okay first thing, he didnt aprove sacrifices, he tested abraham by seeing if he loved god more. ALl those things god was to punish people for disobeying his commandments. And it wasnt once. God warned the people. He told moses and prophets to warn what would happend if they didnt mend their ways. But they didnt and got punished. And yes, the midinaites and all those tribes in caanaan were warned taht the isrealilites were coming., and god helped them. But they were stubborn adn refused to leave. Once city got saved becasue they heeded the advice. and lo and behold , their city didnt get destroyed. remember, he also warned the pagan nations what wil happend if they didnt repent. the israelilites were also the chosen people. promised to abraham many generations ago. and in the end,144000 of them will preach the gospel at the end times.


and god sent his own son to earth. his son preached, proclaimed the kingdom of heaven and you know what? what innocently murdered, so he could take the burden of sins of the world.



see, it is satan that is spreading lies. he is convicing you to say that god is evil, and he is wicked,and satan is the saviour. he is putting him self in place of christ.



it was becaue of satan that we are debating right now. it's becasue of satan that we murder each other. satan tempts people with promises of superiority, wealth etc. his ultimate goal however is to lead people to hell.

If god is so smart and powerful, why doesn't he just stop bad stuff from happening?
Conversely, Why did that piece of crap let evil into the world in the first place?

ZERO MASS

because god gave us free will, AND god will put an end to all evil when he finally throws satan and his followers into the pool of fire. then he will wipe away every tear, and who knows after that except for paradise

Elaborate on your viewpoint as to how deceit(Satan) is more evil than murder(God).

as i have said, god doesnt murder for the fun of it. he's punishing people after countless warnings. satan drives people to murder.....and with deciet. he deceievs people by telling them it's all right to do certain actions. WHICH causes people to do those evil deeds.

God murders, so he is a sinner, so he is a hypocrite, so he is not infallible, so he doesn't exist.

If he is so omnipotent, why even allow evil into the world in the first place?

ZERO MASS

as i said, he gave people free will....and angles too which satan once was. GOD is the supreme judge. since he is infalliable, he can punish with death because he is OMNIPOTENT. he knows wayyyyyy more than we do. unlike here on earth;when we murder we sin because we are not perfect, and god commandend us not to.

as much as i want to explain how gracious god is; i g2g c ya twomorrow

Why did he give people free will if he knew life would suck with evil in the world?

Why does evil only arise from free will?
Why do you feel it is impossible to have free will without evil?

I mean if this fairy tail you call god can do anything, why can't he cook up some free will without the side of evil? eh?

ZERO MASS

Originally posted by Zero Mass
I mean if this fairy tail you call god can do anything, why can't he cook up some free will without the side of evil? eh? I look at it this way... if a god did create all of us, he did it for his pleasure/entertainment. Think of the Sims. It may be fun for awhile to try and make them succeed and fall in love and get a big house.... but eventually you do one of the following:
1) Lock them in a room to starve
2) Steal the ladder while they are swimming so they drown
3) Set them on fire
God may think it fun entertaining for awhile to play us like puppets, but eventually he'd give us freewill because he knows we'd f-up... and he thinks its funny. Just like the sims: he lets us swim, but doesn't give us enough upperbody strength to climb out of the pool.

Yeah 100 posts, I rule

I was wondering how long it would be until I saw a Sims reference.
Funny point though, I thouroughly enjoyed it, god is like that I guess.

ZERO MASS

Edgar-


he gave people free will

Depends on how you define free will. The choices might appear free but are they really?

Examine this-

No one is responsible for their brain makeup when they were first born. So one's first actions are the result of their brain dictating one's responses to environmental stimuli. The enviornmental information is taken in and the brain will make some new connections in its neural makeup as a result..... the next behavior is the result of the new combination of biological and enviornmental influences. So if we start with something no one had a say in (one's genetic composition) then how are responsible for actions that result of "choices" made by your brain. We are never truly in control to the extend we want to think. We have begun to experience a spiral of actions that are a result of choices made when we had no control.

If god is all knowing then he should know that we were going to use are free will and be evil. but if he loves us as much as you people say then he should not have gave us free will because he knew we would be evil and harm are selves. Or if it was all satans fault then why did god create satan in the first place. If he is all knowing then he knew satan would become evil and makes us do evil thing.

in summary there is no old magical white guy fly around in the sky nor a red guy with horns stabing you if you broke one of the old white guys special rules.

God is perfect by definition . One who cant come up with a theology where God is perfect is a bad theologist .

The question is not is God perfect yes or no , but does God exist yes or no , and why-how he does or does not exist etc etc etc .

There is just one correct answer and u cant vote for it , lol .

rather negative choices you provide for your voters. i elect to avoid such nonsense.

okay just because you cant see,touch,hear, taste, smell, god doesnt mean he doesnt exist. do you see my keyboard? just because you cant see it doesnt mean it doenst exist.


and to the free will thing....well if you have free will you can do evil. and yea you do have free will because you can do whatever you want. i could go to iraq, paint my butt with the ameercian flag and moon all the passerbyers on a street. even though i would receive consesquences, i could still go do it.

what is god?

how can we categorise and name something before its nature hasn't been defined?

god in the sense of religion is another problem. since christian creation amongst other theories of existence tend not to have any factual basis its fair to say that (if we really must have a god) god is just name for what underlies the universe and makes it all work / created it all.

what is perfect?

I wont even start on that...

So it seems the question God is perfect? is a meaningless question.......

edgar, your right

absence of evidence isn't proof of absence.....

when you hear that, you think hmm thats true. but thats mistake 1. Basicly that said, it allows me for example to come up with any crazy story or ficticious idea, and just because there is no evidence its wrong doesn't mean it isn't untrue.

Crazy theory: there is also Edgar2 in this forum, but you can't see his posts or his keyboard, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Which is a completely backwards way of thinking. A more sensible line of thought is a comparission to an alternate theory.
There are tons of alternate theories..... which do have strong and testable evidence.

Edgar, you made a post to this thread, which is strong evidence that you exist and have a keyboard, since that is the most common way of typing a post......

If there is no evidence of god existing, it is indistingushable from non existence. Therefore it is highly unlikely to exist, so you might as well say it doesn't (pending evidence turning up and changing your mind).

And there comes skepticism/agnosticism .

Let me define things for you :


what is god?
God = Superior Creating Being



how can we categorise and name something before its nature hasn't been defined?


Its nature ? If we are to define natures we cannot define anything in this world and your and my typing are useless , so I suggest it should stop , only I do not agree.

God can be categorized theoretically , no problem .



what is perfect?


Most Superior

So as God is the most superior being , asking weither he is perfect is whatucall it again ? oxymoron ? what was it ? either way its wrong .

And as for True Wisdoms lists of a not so wonderfull Christian God , yes if how that is written indeed would all be so a reasonable man would choose Satan .

Now we all know theologically speaking Satan cant be good , and God cant be bad , as they are tied to ethical concepts that forbid them to be so . They simply lose their importance if they break the rules .

Allahs sez:

Let me define things for you :

God = Superior Creating Being

That is, of course, your opinion, and should not be misconstrued as definition. No ones definition of gods is anymore valid than another’s. Your particular version re: “superior creating being,” can just as easily be shown to be invalid in that no tangible evidence exists to suggest superiority, creation or being.

If we are to define natures we cannot define anything in this world

It is true that one cannot define the nature of gods. How do you define anything that cannot be shown to exist? But the nature of things that do exist can be defined, and are.

God can be categorized theoretically , no problem .

Then I submit you do not know the concept of a theory. If you did, you would know gods couldn’t be considered theoretical in any way. Categorizing gods is even more far-fetched.

God cant be bad… They simply lose their importance if they break the rules .

THAT is an oxymoron. It invalidates gods superiority AND his importance by not being able to “break the rules.”

no tangible evidence exists to suggest superiority, creation or being.


I exist , I create , I am superior



It is true that one cannot define the nature of gods. How do you define anything that cannot be shown to exist? But the nature of things that do exist can be defined, and are.


No they're not since ur stuck to epistemology , how can u know ?
U cant



Then I submit you do not know the concept of a theory. If you did, you would know gods couldn’t be considered theoretical in any way. Categorizing gods is even more far-fetched.


I already did by the first i said . superiority , creation and being can all be categorized .



God cant be bad… They simply lose their importance if they break the rules .
THAT is an oxymoron. It invalidates gods superiority AND his importance by not being able to “break the rules.”


My firend it is their theology that fails perfection , not mine .
Indeed its an oxymoron , yet their idea of God (who is all good) , cant be bad . And still he is , and so it goes on and on .

Allahs

I exist , I create , I am superior

Aside from insulting my intelligence and ever other member here, you do yourself a discredit by stating something so ridiculous that it makes you out a fool. Only someone so detached from reality would ever say such a thing.

No they're not since ur stuck to epistemology

A foothold in reality would show you otherwise. Go ahead, take a step.

I already did by the first i said . superiority , creation and being can all be categorized

Yes, in a dream world, anything is possible.

My firend it is their theology that fails perfection , not mine

Nonsense, any theology is perfect and imperfect at the same time. You cannot state that what you believe is any more perfect or imperfect than what anyone else believes. That is as ridiculous as saying, “My god can beat up your god.”

Indeed its an oxymoron , yet their idea of God (who is all good) , cant be bad . And still he is , and so it goes on and on

So what? Your gods advocate murder, vengeance and slavery. And that goes on and on…

Aside from insulting my intelligence and ever other member here, you do yourself a discredit by stating something so ridiculous that it makes you out a fool. Only someone so detached from reality would ever say such a thing.

U only insult yourself


A foothold in reality would show you otherwise. Go ahead, take a step.

thorugh ur brain that footstape is made is it not , through your brain the environment is experienced is it not ?


Yes, in a dream world, anything is possible.

Life is nothin but a lucid dream


Nonsense, any theology is perfect and imperfect at the same time. You cannot state that what you believe is any more perfect or imperfect than what anyone else believes. That is as ridiculous as saying, “My god can beat up your god.”

Theos Logos implies perfection of Knowledge as God cannot be but perfect , dont u get it ? So whoever comes closer to that perfection has a better theology . For instance in the Bible Moses actually corrects God , thats not superior theology is it ?


So what? Your gods advocate murder, vengeance and slavery. And that goes on and on…

Whose Gods are you talking about , I have no Gods .

Edgar-


and yea you do have free will because you can do whatever you want. i could go to iraq, paint my butt with the ameercian flag and moon all the passerbyers on a street. even though i would receive consesquences, i could still go do it.

very thought provoking......:confused: *gasp* we do have free will, they have been telling us lies!!!!! ( in chick tract fashion):rolleyes:

Here is my story:

One day, god head is trying to make a wish by flipping 2 coins. He named them adam and eve. The coins have two faces. One is head, which repersents god, and it means good. One is tail, which repersents satan, and it means evil. Right before god head tries to flip, he sees satan is sitting next to him, he got scared and slipped his finger, and look and behold, two tails. God head is very mad and you know the rest of the story...

A failed experiment perform by god, and that's us. Perfect huh?

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Here is my story:

One day, god head is trying to make a wish by flipping 2 coins. He named them adam and eve. The coins have two faces. One is head, which repersents god, and it means good. One is tail, which repersents satan, and it means evil. Right before god head tries to flip, he sees satan is sitting next to him, he got scared and slipped his finger, and look and behold, two tails. God head is very mad and you know the rest of the story...

A failed experiment perform by god, and that's us. Perfect huh?

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, you make a good point th...
Wait a minute, what the hell are you talking about? I didn't understand the thing about the coin and stuff, it was utterly weird.
But what did I expext with that name man...dakpaklatcakmak? what is that all about? any explanation would help out here

ZERO MASS

"God is perfect. Then why permit evil?"

She also has a very weird sense of humor.

:m: :cool: :m:

Originally posted by Zero Mass
But what did I expext with that name man...dakpaklatcakmak? what is that all about? any explanation would help out here Well, I didn't created that string. However, if you do a search on yahoo or icq, you will see lots of people using that. Must be a clut, right? Well, do a search on the web, and you will find out. ;)

Creepy

ZERO MASS