I don't know much about eastern philosohpy on the idea of good and evil, and once I get a better grasp I wish to compare it to Christian views of good and evil (well, those of the common believer), so I have two questions for ya, fast and easy:

1.- Is there such a thing as "the devil" in eastern religion? How does an eastern "satan" compare to the traditional satan?

2.- The Yin-Yang: from the way I understand it, it's something related to the balance between good and evil, and in the ying-yang symbol features a white haf with a black dot in it, and a black other half with a white dot in it.

In contrast, from what I gather from Christian thought, God (representing good) is perfect, thus implying that his quality of being "good" is absolute.

The devil in this case is a rebel expelled from paradise, and is not purely evil since being purely evil would mean that the devil is somehow perfect as well, but it really doesn't hold true in that framework since only God may be perfect.

Does the Ying-yang suggest that good has some evil in it and viceversa?

3.- Is there such a thing as hell in eastern religion?

Disclaimer: the discussion in question 2 stems from various sources which I find somewhat hard to trace, and some other part of the discussion comes from my own interpretation of the material I've read, and sorry for the bad english...I stayed up late watching TV last night.

Depends what eastern religion you are talking about. I have a book that lists over 30, some with gods, some not. Mostly, there are certain myths about hells, but it's not really an integral part of Buddhist philosophy, and certainly not Taoism.

Personally, I think the perspective is this: there is no absolute good or evil. Is something good? compared to what? good for who? Is something evil? again, compared to what? evil for whom? In Taoism, there is no fixed and codified morality, only the general cultivation of "virtue", from which all action springs spontaniously.

Ah spider, ever so helpful...

So basically not all eastern religions have a personification of good and evil (God vs the devil per se) so, what is the ermmm...central belief of doctrines such as buddhism and taoism which makes them lack such personification?

Is the individual in ultimate control of himself? What does he/she do to pursue "good" and avoid "evil"?

http://www.cyjack.com/Reflection/Alan%20Watts%20-%20Limits%20of%20Language.zip

(Alan Watts, the limits of language. zipped mp3 file)

So is the Dalai Llama a Bodhisattva?

I suppose, although he probably wouldn't admit it. I think there are people besides the dali lama who's understanding is superior. He is an admirable spokesman, though.

yes, the dali lama is the incarnation of the bodhisattva of compassion, chenrezig

I don't know much about eastern philosohpy on the idea of good and evil, and once I get a better grasp I wish to compare it to Christian views of good and evil (well, those of the common believer), so I have two questions for ya, fast and easy:

1.- Is there such a thing as "the devil" in eastern religion? How does an eastern "satan" compare to the traditional satan?

me))))))yes there are devils in Eastsern reigions. forexample in Tebetan Buddhism we have man depcitions of 'devil' but really they symboloiz the 'othe face' of the gods, if you will. they are the experience of thenegative side if you choose to experience that reality in such a way. that's their belief anyway.

2.- The Yin-Yang: from the way I understand it, it's something related to the balance between good and evil, and in the ying-yang symbol features a white haf with a black dot in it, and a black other half with a white dot in it.

me)))))yes, there is potential for a whole spectrum of experience. i could right now go out, find a child and disembowel her. thay would be horrible and evil. dont care where your from that wold be so. i could also go out abd help a stray dog, which is good. and all thepossibly extremes and subtleties of experience. knowing this and feeling this we havecreated mythology to explore this, anddevils and gods are symbols for our sense of experience.....the yin yang symbol issymbolizing the interelationship of polar reality, whereas in Judaic Christian myth, and Abrahamic worldview, which has been influenced by Zoroastrianism we tend to get the idea of a CONFLICT between the polar related extremes such as light dark, good bad

In contrast, from what I gather from Christian thought, God (representing good) is perfect, thus implying that his quality of being "good" is absolute.

me)))yes, this is te problem of such a belief. they assume an all-good principle/'Go' and THE find themselves with the 'problem of 'evil'...!!

The devil in this case is a rebel expelled from paradise, and is not purely evil since being purely evil would mean that the devil is somehow perfect as well, but it really doesn't hold true in that framework since only God may be perfect.

me)))true. but it is 'ultimate dualism' whereby there is the idea that 'evil' can be finally banished from reality. such beliefs create evil in reality, as we have seen and are seeing

Does the Ying-yang suggest that good has some evil in it and viceversa?

me)))))))remember it is only a symbol, andthe map aint the territory. real life is incredibly complex, and dynamically evolving all the time.
so for exampe, when you are being 'good' you may have other motives---Jngians called this side the 'Shadow'. ie., there IS no 'pure good' as tho 'good' were some actual entity. its not, its a wod we have absracted out of complex reality and feeling

3.- Is there such a thing as hell in eastern religion?

me)))yes, but they are not the permanent hell of Christianity, but rather persiods of hells. this rveals the transisional natrue of realty. in actial life you may fee; hellish, unhappy etc, but it usually doesn't last. for we change all the time.
having said this, in Eastern religions there does exist this idea one ca have permanent bliss. and escape from cycica; reality. so they in theirown way communicate confusing knowledge. i call it part of the ptriarchal stream where Nature is feared

Disclaimer: the discussion in question 2 stems from various sources which I find somewhat hard to trace, and some other part of the discussion comes from my own interpretation of the material I've read, and sorry for the bad english...I stayed up late watching TV last night.
your english is fine to me, and you ask really interesting questons

http://www.cyjack.com/Reflection/Alan%20Watts%20-%20Limits%20of%20Language.zip

(Alan Watts, the limits of language. zipped mp3 file)

I got a message indicating the file was protected by a password, strange. :confused:

The password for all zipped files is

www.cyjack.com

The article is about language, which is structured very differently from east to west. I think it is a reflection of a radically different point of view.

ah, thanks spider...I'll listen to it when I get back from class

hehe thanks duendy, I thought I was out of it when I made that initial post :D

I don't know much about eastern philosohpy on the idea of good and evil, and once I get a better grasp I wish to compare it to Christian views of good and evil (well, those of the common believer), so I have two questions for ya, fast and easy:

1.- Is there such a thing as "the devil" in eastern religion? How does an eastern "satan" compare to the traditional satan?

2.- The Yin-Yang: from the way I understand it, it's something related to the balance between good and evil, and in the ying-yang symbol features a white haf with a black dot in it, and a black other half with a white dot in it.

In contrast, from what I gather from Christian thought, God (representing good) is perfect, thus implying that his quality of being "good" is absolute.

The devil in this case is a rebel expelled from paradise, and is not purely evil since being purely evil would mean that the devil is somehow perfect as well, but it really doesn't hold true in that framework since only God may be perfect.

Does the Ying-yang suggest that good has some evil in it and viceversa?

3.- Is there such a thing as hell in eastern religion?

Disclaimer: the discussion in question 2 stems from various sources which I find somewhat hard to trace, and some other part of the discussion comes from my own interpretation of the material I've read, and sorry for the bad english...I stayed up late watching TV last night.

1. Kind of, Kali the hindu devi, is considered to be irreligion, and even time itself, but she like all things come from the supersoul, Narayana (the one and only formless God).

Krishna speaks on good and bad:
"One whose consciousness is bewildered by illusion perceives many differences in value and meaning among material objects. Thus one engages constantly on the platform of material good and evil and is bound by such conceptions. Absorbed in material duality, such a person contemplates the performance of compulsory duties, nonperformance of such duties and performance of forbidden activities" (11.7.8)

"That which is expressed by material words or meditated upon by the material mind is not ultimate truth. What, therefore, is actually good or bad within this insubstantial world of duality, and how can the extent of such good and bad be measured?" (11.28.4)

"There is no need for a more elaborate description of these good and bad qualities, since to constantly see good and bad is itself a bad quality. The best quality is to transcend material good and evil." (SB 11.25.39)

"One who has transcended material good and evil automatically acts in accordance with religious injunctions and avoids forbidden activities. The self-realized person does this spontaneously, like an innocent child, and not because he is thinking in terms of material good and evil" (SB 11.7.11)

2. The Yin-Yang simply suggests duality is the inherent nature of things in this world.

3. In Hinduism, there's suppose to be 7 hells and 7 heavens, which are lokas (planes of existence). You can take birth on any of them, and gain and lose status on any of them. If you attain liberation, then you never return to the material universe.

Is there such a thing as "the devil" in eastern religion? How does an eastern "satan" compare to the traditional satan?

Probably Yes. Per Eastern philosophy Lord Shiva has two sons, one Lord Vighneshwara (Ganapathy) and Lord Subrahmanya (Muruka). Ganapathy stands for the good and Muruka stands for the evil. Evil in the sense that it relates more to materialistic world and all worldly pleasures.


The devil in this case is a rebel expelled from paradise, and is not purely evil since being purely evil would mean that the devil is somehow perfect as well, but it really doesn't hold true in that framework since only God may be perfect.

You have an excellent point here. Muruka is considered a rebel in paradise.


Is there such a thing as hell in eastern religion?

Symbol of Muruka are Vel (spear) and peacock and peacock is the national bird of India (and Thailand) – may be a lucky coincident :)

Probably Yes. Per Eastern philosophy Lord Shiva has two sons, one Lord Vighneshwara (Ganapathy) and Lord Subrahmanya (Muruka). Ganapathy stands for the good and Muruka stands for the evil. Evil in the sense that it relates more to materialistic world and all worldly pleasures.

me)))))))i would like to draw your attention t what liesbehind these mythologies. for example abov poster mentiones KALI, and here is mentioned SIVA. let me rflect on tese wo names for Goddess and god
Kali really is the Dark aspct of the Goddess, whioch was spliced up by the patriarchy. so instead of the original prepatriarchal understanding of a Goddess with different spects, 'Kali' here dark.'crone aspect gets singled out qs bad, whereas it really is to be understood as part of the PROCESS of realiy. get me? we are born, live and die, right. and mythology addresses this menaingful jorney. but the patriarchal rendition of these very ancien insights cuts them up. so they suggest one can have eternal bliss withOUT the dark, the death, etc. tis is same east and west.
as for SIVA i really reommend you checkout this by Mike Crowley http://rowantreearts.com/michael_crowley.htm
yes, blue-necked 'Siva' represents the dung growing psilocybin mushroom which is psychedelic. but s the patriarchs are wont to do, we see they separate earth andits pleasures etc from 'spiritual 'asceticism, thus dividing the believers in their myth in two. divided against hirself s/he adheres to the authority of their srcipt!



You have an excellent point here. Muruka is considered a rebel in paradise.

me))))yeah, just like he christian devil. ie., all our instinctual earthy impulses become scapegoat to that patrarchal mindset


Symbol of Muruka are Vel (spear) and peacock and peacock is the national bird of India (and Thailand) – may be a lucky coincident :)
spear denotes hunting, and peacock 'vanity'?

spear denotes hunting, and peacock 'vanity'?

You are from the Muruka team right :D

You are from the Muruka team right :D
no. i dont belong to either 'team'. i am seeing the GAME!

2. The Yin-Yang simply suggests duality is the inherent nature of things in this world.
Not exactly, the yin-yang represents the inherent unity of things that seem opposing.

Not exactly, the yin-yang represents the inherent unity of things that seem opposing.

Thanks for correcting that. I just remembered the unity between the tiger (physical) and dragon (spiritual).

1.- Is there such a thing as "the devil" in eastern religion? How does an eastern "satan" compare to the traditional satan?

Within Sanatana Dharama - which I practice, there is no devil or satan equivalent to Christianity.

I am taoist. As such, no, there is no proper symbol of good or evil, we have no God and no opposite of God or Satan or anything. We feel that Good and Evil are simply another set of opposites, as light or dark, up or down. All of these are represented by Yin and Yang. A catch is that the white dot in the black, yang within yin, represents how there is good within evil, and vice versa.
We see life as a sort of spectrum, two ends, one middle. There is no such thing as an absolute, no matter how far you walk in one direction, you can always walk back.
As is implied by this, neither good nor evil are perfect, nor are they equal.
Finally, no, there is no hell, just as there is no heaven. In Taoism we believe that no matter what road in life you lead, it will come to an end, and your spirit will return to it's source. We describe this as water in a bowl. Nothing is eternal, and so with time, the bowl(your body) must wear and break, and the water (your spirit) must spill. The water will flow through the ground and inevitably return to a great river, where it might once again be drawn out into a new bowl and you might live a new life. This is my interpretation, as I believe in reincarnation.
I hope that helps to answer your question(s) from one point of view.

Within Sanatana Dharama - which I practice, there is no devil or satan equivalent to Christianity.

If we are to accept God (per Sanatana Dharma (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_hinduism.htm )) is it also not accepting Evil (which is the opposite of God) ?

See my link (http://www.sciforums.com/printthread.php?t=3325)

I define Sanatana Dharma as I practice as :

Any way of life that when practiced by majority of people can provide peace, happiness and prosperity for mankind for eternity is THE WAY OF LIFE.

Good and Evil is not same as God and Evil...either way, they are human mental constructs. The Universe unfolds in its own formula. If we consider that to be pure Power (Sakti?) then the that power is neither good nor evil. It is the effect to the human population that defines the way we want it to be. Sun's radiation is deadly, Black hole is deadly - all from a point of view....

Knowing and understanding of that formula of the Universe and the charesteristic of the Power is the way to Nirvana...

Or if one has no understanding of the Universe...God and Devil could work for you....too. That is why the understanding of Hindusim is for all people depending on where in the Totem Pole you are residing. :D

Thanks for the responses guys, they've all been very informative.

As of right now, I've been reading a bit about supernatural phenomena like for example miracles performed by saints (christians) and of course buddhist monks who can go days without sleeping or even levitating yogis. What caught my eye is all the "somewhat recent" boom of discussion about exorcism and what not.

When I was a catholic, I did get to learn a bit about exorcism from friends who knew better and all but now that I'm more into eastern spirituality and eastern thought, essential aspects of my former way of thinking or my perception of a "god" have found a corresponding eastern "interpretation" (for lack of a better word) except this...devil thing. Hopefully I'm not obsessed with the whole idea but I'm just looking for an answer, why is there no such thing for say buddhists or taoists?

Why do you hear about this kind of phenomena (demonic posession, etc.) mainly in the western civilization? I've heard all these stories about devout catholics and other christians having spiritual fights with some evil entity to which someone might say "So you see, the devil's for real", but what about equally spiritual monks in tibet or yogis in India?

It's not that anything bad should happen to spiritual people but all this exorcism and demons stuff sounds to me like it's more of a western thing.

Hopefully this made sense, if not please say so and I'll gladly re-elaborate. I'd like to hear what people in this forum have to say, like genep, spider, kmguru (and spookz if he were still around, man I miss the guy), but the rest of you are also welcome to contribute, so now you're like my "eastern" buddies who know better :D

No, the concept of being 'possessed' isn't just a Western thing, it goes very far back.
fpr example as far back as shamanism!

it ismeaing that 'you' ar taken over by some other force 'you' haveno control over

in modern secualr idiom is is various formsof so-called 'mental illness' like 'obsessive compulsive syndrm' 'psychosis' etc

the question you ask isincredibly deep actually,and is really in need of being deeply explored to

the basis of te belief inpossession is the idea tat 'I' am a staic entity that CAN be 'taken over' by another 'force' be it positive or negative. rather tan understanding our beingas a CONTINUUM of potential experiential process...

the positive ideas of possession:
in Classical Dionysianism, the celebrants would partake of a psychedelic sacrament which was ALSo their god, Dionysos. I.e, te mushroom they aded to teir 'wine' was considered their god. Thus theingesting of 'hir' made them beliee tey were becoming 'possessed' by te 'god of Nature'. Dionysos. and tis allowed them to really abandon temselves to ecstasy in totaly uninhibited ways....!

in its negative context we can use Christian examples. for its the Cristians who really are the creators of the 'Devil', so in this belief system , being possewssed by him and his demons is forever and ever. serious shit
so we have tales of the 'saints' struggling wit demons don't we?
what's this mean?

it means that when you invest all your energies into an ideal of 'purity' then all your other deeper stuff becomes dammed up and stagnates and turns into your 'demons'. I.e, you ae playing a game with yourself called :

'good' versus 'bad'

also see here,
'Review of Chinese Magical Medicine by Michael Strickmann www.daoiststudies.org/review.strickmann.php
keep in mind that the 'daoism' being referred to isnot philosophical Taoism--which fro example seeker-of-the-way eloquently describes, but more religious daoism, wit its ideas of 'immortality pills' and whatnot

Have you heard of multiple personanlities. The Brain divides itself to multiple sections like a computer who can run multiple applications simultaneously. Only the primary OS knows which one is which, because it creates those personalities to solve a complex unsolvable issue.

There is a great book called "the Man who mistook his wife for a hat rack" by Oliver Sacks - an example of how the brain works.

Original quote by Duendy
it means that when you invest all your energies into an ideal of 'purity' then all your other deeper stuff becomes dammed up and stagnates and turns into your 'demons'. I.e, you ae playing a game with yourself called :

Its not just in ignoring it, its when you refuse to take responsibility for every part of you as well as the shadow/dark and the motivations and actions that result. As an example, if I murdered someone and refused to take responsibility for my deed, the motive for the agression and disown it and declare I am innocent. The 'demons' are created when you act only for your own benefit or partition your psyche. This does not absolve the person of responsibility as even the personal 'demons' are shaped to serve a function, it is just being hypocritical. I do evil yet I'm still pure because I want to have my cake and eat it too bs rather than taking responsiblity or controlling what you should. A lack of real conscience.

it means that when you invest all your energies into an ideal of 'purity' then all your other deeper stuff becomes dammed up and stagnates and turns into your 'demons'.

I was discussing a similar idea with a friend the other day, except I was using the Yin-Yang as an example where if either force was dominant then the other force would tend to rise up again in order to maintain the balance.

I'm not too sure if I was making a point with the Yin-Yang thing but in the context of what you're saying, is it then possible that no matter how good you strive to be, other parts of you might resurface as a response to the psychological/emotional imbalance produced by the emphasis placed on given behavioral patterns?



I.e, you ae playing a game with yourself called :
'good' versus 'bad'


I once read something about a conversation between a chinese philosopher (can't recall who it was) and an interviewer who was asking the philosopher what he thought of good and evil.

The chinese mater stated: "The fight between good and evil is comparable with two dogs always fighting each other." The interviewer asks: "And which one wins?".

-- "Whichever dog I feed and take care of the most".

A guy I was talking with online offered his own interpretation to the above story. For the englihtened Buddha, there was no such thing as a fight between good and evil...he simply starved his two dogs to death.

His interpretation does make sense if you think of it in terms of "in-action", the "non-doing" state where the "doing", the "acting intentionally" is karma (but I would not know how to fit karma into the whole picture, as I do not yet "grasp it" or "see it" or "realize it", however it might be said...hopefully I'm not running off in a different tangent here).

What the story means to me though is: Is it necessary to keep the "fight" going if we want to remain balanced?

Have you heard of multiple personanlities. The Brain divides itself to multiple sections like a computer who can run multiple applications simultaneously. Only the primary OS knows which one is which, because it creates those personalities to solve a complex unsolvable issue.

There is a great book called "the Man who mistook his wife for a hat rack" by Oliver Sacks - an example of how the brain works.

That reminds me of this:

http://www.geocities.com/shameless_poster/karateVsOrochiIori.txt

And forgive me for making too many assumptions, but so...is mental discipline more of an eastern thing? Well, you have things like NLP, Psychology and the such in Western culture which are helpful elements to anyone seeking aid.

However, practices like meditation, yoga (including yama and niyama - not just asana and pranayama), the so called "zen way of life" that you read about in books...is this what provides eastern spirituality (if you wanna call it that way) with the element of self-control or, as Mr. Karate in the picture says, tempering your mind?

And what would this...primary OS be? How would you recognize it and go back to it once you run off into one of the different partitions of the mind?

DISCLAIMER: I'm aware it's a ficticious videogame character in a ficticious setting, but I'm using that example also in reference to what duendy mentioned about fragments of someone's personality stagnating and turning malignant as a result of being neglected.

In case you were wondering, the guy on the right side of the picture is posessed according to the game's storyline. Contact me if you want to know more about the game.

Its not just in ignoring it, its when you refuse to take responsibility for every part of you as well as the shadow/dark and the motivations and actions that result.


But then who knows, taking responsibility for yourself is the basis of genuine spiritual growth. As such, many a devout christian would be compelled to practice full ownership of their actions and forsee the consequences.


The 'demons' are created when you act only for your own benefit or partition your psyche. This does not absolve the person of responsibility as even the personal 'demons' are shaped to serve a function, it is just being hypocritical.

Not necessarily hypocritical, at worst it would seem like they would not be aware of it at a conscious level. Some saints were sinners but some others who weren't even saints they were just hardcore christians whose only motivation was to practice "good" as specified in christian morality. In both cases (saints and very religious people) there have been cases of this so called demonic posession which would seem to have taken place for no logical reason apparently.

I know it sounds vague just saying that there have been cases of christians and roman catholics who've experienced posession. It seems to me that to cite specific cases I would have to ask for this topic to be moved to the Christianity section, but I made it clear that I want to hear on the phenomenon from an eastern philosophy viewpoint.


I do evil yet I'm still pure because I want to have my cake and eat it too bs rather than taking responsiblity or controlling what you should. A lack of real conscience.

Again, it sounds to me like legitimate christian morality would be something like: "God, give me the strength to do good and keep me from doing evil". As a former catholic that's what I knew the basic moral was...yes, you are quite capable of doing evil but the trick is to do good which will help you grow spiritually in time. Notice I'm not defending Christianity nor am I against it. As to why I "went eastern", that's a discussion for a different topic.

I was discussing a similar idea with a friend the other day, except I was using the Yin-Yang as an example where if either force was dominant then the other force would tend to rise up again in order to maintain the balance.

I'm not too sure if I was making a point with the Yin-Yang thing but in the contet of what you're saying, is it then possible that no matter how good you strive to be, other parts of you might resurface as a response to the psychological/emotional imbalance produced by the emphasis placed on given behavioral patterns?



I once read something about a conversation between a chinese philosopher (can't recall who it was) and an interviewer who was asking the philosopher what he thought of good and evil.

The chinese mater stated: "The fight between good and evil is comparable with two dogs always fighting each other." The interviewer asks: "And which one wins?".

-- "Whichever dog I feed and take care of the most".

A guy I was talking with online offered his own interpretation to the above story. For the englihtened Buddha, there was no such thing as a fight between good and evil...he simply starved his two dogs to death.

His interpretation does make sense if you think of it in terms of "in-action", the "non-doing" state where the "doing", the "acting intentionally" is karma (but I would not know how to fit karma into the whole picture, as I do not yet "grasp it" or "see it" or "realize it", however it might be said...hopefully I'm not running off in a different tangent here).

What the story means to me though is: Is it necessary to keep the "fight" going if we want to remain balanced?

HI, i'm not into Eastern beliefs in 'Buddhism, 'karma' etc. i think these are errr good exampe of what i am mentioing. forexample te very concept and pactice of karma has created one of the most poverty stricken and callous systems, the caste system. where people wit money wil look with indifferece of people begging on streets, having deformed themselvs to get at least some pity to live.
furthe i seethew whole PURSUIT of 'goodness/purity' to be a dumb-run. i call it not bein EARTHED. lost in positive vs negatve......i sense it is better to be R E A L wit yourself. to explore what yo are really feeling, tinking. start there. not become an authoritarian on your own prson, tryig to batter down any 'impure' thoughts and feelings you may have. as actions show, in history, THAT attitude projects out ontp te community, and next thing you re chasin people you believe are 'impure' wit a gun, and doing extremely evil things. and a 'perfect' example is the turtures and murderrs doen by the Catholic Churches Inquisition against innocent children women and men! all in the name of the 'all-good God' and/or 'Jesus Christ'!

HI, i'm not into Eastern beliefs in 'Buddhism, 'karma' etc. i think these are errr good exampe of what i am mentioing. forexample te very concept and pactice of karma has created one of the most poverty stricken and callous systems, the caste system. where people wit money wil look with indifferece of people begging on streets, having deformed themselvs to get at least some pity to live.


You mean something like: "These people are poor and miserable because they must have done some bad things before, and this is their punishment", that kind of thing? If so, I believe it runs on any society with any set of beliefs on either side of the world: a self-conviction that everyone gets what they deserve which is not necessarily true because we humans are entitled to at least some level of dignity, whether the government or the higher classes acknowledge that or not.

Maybe I'm wrong but, isn't the caste system based on the Hinduist belief of reincarnation, where you come back as a superior or inferior form depending on how you acted in your past life? I think the Buddhist version of reincarnation is termed 'Rebirth': as long as the karma cycle is not broken, the individual will always be reborn.

And speaking of karma, again, I don't know too much about it but I know it's definitely not the eye for an eye thing we have come to know.



as actions show, in history, THAT attitude projects out ontp te community, and next thing you re chasin people you believe are 'impure' wit a gun, and doing extremely evil things

This pretty much boils down to tolerance. We can disagree on a particular set of values ad still be civil about it. The rest is politics.



furthe i seethew whole PURSUIT of 'goodness/purity' to be a dumb-run. i call it not bein EARTHED. lost in positive vs negatve......i sense it is better to be R E A L wit yourself. to explore what yo are really feeling, tinking. start there. not become an authoritarian on your own prson, tryig to batter down any 'impure' thoughts and feelings you may have.


That sounds like something Krishnamurti would say (Jiddu and U.G.). There is no god, there's no devil. It's just you as you are and there is nothing else. Don't look for it because you will not find it. I'm such a sucker for U.G., I like some of his thoughts, though he's somewhat of a materialist but anway...I do see your point: the idea of good and evil is what creates an internal division which is likely to "blind" people and keep them from looking at the big picture.

Damn...and not a word in this reply dealt with spiritual posession or, in the context of clinical psychology, psychosis. I guess we're off into another sub-topic in this discussion.

You mean something like: "These people are poor and miserable because they must have done some bad things before, and this is their punishment", that kind of thing? If so, I believe it runs on any society with any set of beliefs on either side of the world: a self-conviction that everyone gets what they deserve which is not necessarily true because we humans are entitled to at least some level of dignity, whether the government or the higher classes acknowledge that or not.

me)))))i am aseeing te patriararchy as being both West AND East. in the West we had te social division between te King--'Divine Right of Kings' and the his 'serfs' (checkout 'The Three Estates')
I Occidental mythology, which includes Judaioc Cristian dogma we have the idea that God wants his creatures to suffer, so as to become purifed. This was one of the reasons they persecuted midwifes (etc)--as 'witches' because they heloped ease the pain of childbirt and helped women have abortions. And the puritanical attitude of suffering being the road to 'God', and so on.....This ideology is forcibly maintained by the ruling elite so as to make out via propaganda that oppression is 'God'-given!


Maybe I'm wrong but, isn't the caste system based on the Hinduist belief of reincarnation, where you come back as a superior or inferior form depending on how you acted in your past life? I think the Buddhist version of reincarnation is termed 'Rebirth': as long as the karma cycle is not broken, the individual will always be reborn.

me)))Yes. te doctrine of reincarnation goew hand in hand wit te belief in Karma. tis belief assures tose in power including 'religious' pople can claim theyare 'pure' due to good past incarnations......who can 'prove' this aint true is the supposed 'catch'.....for those gullible enough to believe it.

And speaking of karma, again, I don't know too much about it but I know it's definitely not the eye for an eye thing we have come to know.

me)))well it involves much suffering for its victims at the bottom of the hierarchy!



This pretty much boils down to tolerance. We can disagree on a particular set of values ad still be civil about it. The rest is politics.

me))but you see, fundamentalist beliefs do not accept other ways of being.



That sounds like something Krishnamurti would say (Jiddu and U.G.). There is no god, there's no devil. It's just you as you are and there is nothing else. Don't look for it because you will not find it. I'm such a sucker for U.G., I like some of his thoughts, though he's somewhat of a materialist but anway...I do see your point: the idea of good and evil is what creates an internal division which is likely to "blind" people and keep them from looking at the big picture.

me))the idea of 'gurus' even when they CLAIM they're not an authority is als prt of the myth of the 'more pureer one'. i am familiar wit J.Krishnamurti's stuff. i studied him close for a while. but i found out tings that kicked me out of the habit. i LOVED tho how he was against war/ and his insights about Nature. but tese are not patented by him. i also found him a bit too Buddhist, and ascetic.

Damn...and not a word in this reply dealt with spiritual posession or, in the context of clinical psychology, psychosis. I guess we're off into another sub-topic in this discussion.
the mental health movement is a modification of the religious social control oppression. even more insidious actually--if thats fukin possible. NOW they make out we are mere biochemial machines, and any mainfestations of our depth is deemed by these poeple, 'mental biological disease/dis-order!!

ermmm...in some cases yeah, my former counselor was a hack but I've had the chance to meet a couple good psychologists and also to read the works of yet others who've brought up interesting ideas about the freedom of the human spirit

and in a sense, scripts are everywhere (which is what you're talking about this opression of others and the such), but the truly conscious individual would overcome these scripts...it's a matter of awareness.

now for the term psychosis, and I didn't make this clear before, is just a label for what some churchies and I witnessed at some point during spiritual retreats...and not to talk about the topic in a morbid way but we did witness some of this so called posession but nothing like what they show in the movies...anywho, this topic's starting to look dead

oh well, raja yoga anyone? :confused:

...look DEAD??????? for whom?

The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly.
--Richard Bach

Thanks for the quote. Funny, I just experienced the same thing first hand last weekend, though the details do not pertain to this conversation. Sadly, it's the time and distance which gives you the bird's eye view.

On a different note, I was doing some research on the mask worn by the guy in the picture I had posted in a prior message. Perhaps some of you already know about Tengu, but here's a couple of pretty informative sites for the rest of us

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tengu.shtml
http://www.youkaimura.org/tengu.htm

The relevance of Tengu to this thread comes from the description the site gives of these creatures as apparently evil spirits but the interesting part is that they are actually divine punishers of vain Buddhist priests and those who use their "spiritual knowledge" to gain power or position.

Needless to say, I want a mask like Mr. Karate's :D

'Good' necessarilly defines 'evil'; 'evil' defines 'good'.
Two sides of One coin.
Due to perceptival weaknesses, they appear to have seperate 'existences'.
They do not, they are One.

ermmm I was trying to get more out of the topic before it ended up in advaita, or non-duality which is one of the main eastern views of this so called "good" and "evil" - if not the main one. Thanks for sharing though.

It's a daunting task to compare points of view among different religious traditions on such a general topic but it's worth it as long as I get to hear what you guys think, though I might have to do some more digging myself if I want to get more information.

So, you wanted the Eastern perspective, but not the 'main' one? ermmm, ok.. I recant! *__-

Nonono, I wanted many of them before we got to one of the "main ones". The thing with getting to an answer right away (at least for me) sometimes makes it easy to forget about the process. Maybe I was getting nowhere :confused:

Anyway, I know it pretty much ends there, but I also know that non-dualism can be a bit of a trick pony for those who don't read between the lines (or for those who do for that matter :p). From what I've learned, duality must be first grasped before it is transcended and advaita is "attained". In other words, you must first know maya to realize it is indeed, maya (or the illusion).

I understand what you are saying and appreciate the wisdom. I was speaking a bit 'tongue-in-cheek', though. *__-
Peace...

Does the Ying-yang suggest that good has some evil in it and viceversa?
According to the Tao Te Ching, the existance of one implies the existance of the other. You cannot define something as "good" if there is no "evil". The book talks about that when they talk about the days when there was no loyalty, or trust, or anything like that. Those things were not thought of because they were inherent qualities of human beings. But when deceit and "evil" was "created', then those things became relevant. Basically, they only exist when "evil" exist. When you have no "evil", then you also don't have any "good". All things are neutral- it is how we perceive it that defines it in a dualist perspective. Such is the essence of the Tao. The Tao is the unity of the opposites, and thus, in the Tao, there is no "good" or "evil", there just IS.