http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/02012008/1552484/BEI136_wh.jpg

Vs.

http://graphics.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2008/07/16/1216207110_4056/539w.jpg

The 1st image = the dead Hizballah / "Palestinian" terrorists' coffins received from Israel as part of the latest swap. The 2nd image = the coffins of the 2 Israeli soldiers abducted by Hizballah - whose abduction started the 2006 war with Israel.

There were also 5 live Lebanese terrorists Israel has provided. Hizballah has provided none, but did provide some more info about an Israeli soldier missing for 22 years.

So, if you were a Lebanese, would the contrast of these 2 images make you feel happy? Would you want more victories like this one?

Hizballah didn't give up any live Israeli hostages or bodies because they failed to capture or kill any. And those rows of coffins in the 1st picture would still be alive had Nasrallah not started the war in the first place. I wonder how much of his "victory" parades and speeches do the Lebanese buy?

I don't know about whether or not it was a victory, but I think I see more dead bodies in the top picture than in the bottom.

I don't know about whether or not it was a victory, but I think I see more dead bodies in the top picture than in the bottom.

thats probably because we respect the enemy dead. silly us, all those efforts to be humanitarian and we are just hated more. we should adopt the hezbullah model, kill more innocent and manipulate the media. it works :shrug:

Respect the enemy dead. Is that why they paid Captain R 80,000 shekels for shooting a schoolgirl dead?

So how many Palestinian/Lebanese men, women and children is Israel still holding captive without due process? 4,000? 10,000?

Respect the enemy dead. Is that why they paid Captain R 80,000 shekels for shooting a schoolgirl dead?

So how many Palestinian/Lebanese men, women and children is Israel still holding captive without due process? 4,000? 10,000?

Yes, from SAM who believes it is right and just to buy children as suicide bombers to kill other children.

The Slave markets are still alive and well in the Lands of Islam, sell you children for $25,000 and send then to their deaths, and murder other children for fun and profit.

Heh, its the American troops who are occupying other countries [we don't do body counts] and American taxpayers paying Israel to keep their occupation continued.

Here are Americans defending their country:


First, Afghan officials say, U.S. aircraft killed 15 civilians in the northeast on July 4, then just three days later, hit a wedding in the east, killing 47, mostly women and children.


Such bravery!

I wonder if there would be such media silence if 47 American women and children had been bombed by Afghanis.

Heh, its the American troops who are occupying other countries [we don't do body counts] and American taxpayers paying Israel to keep their occupation continued.

Here are Americans defending their country:



Such bravery!

I wonder if there would be such media silence if 47 American women and children had been bombed by Afghanis.


Yes, from SAM who believes it is right and just to buy children as suicide bombers to kill other children.

The Slave markets are still alive and well in the Lands of Islam, sell you children for $25,000 and send then to their deaths, and murder other children for fun and profit.

Yes, from SAM who believes it is right and just to buy children as suicide bombers to kill other children.

The Slave markets are still alive and well in the Lands of Islam, sell you children for $25,000 and send then to their deaths, and murder other children for fun and profit.

Suicide bombers are killing themselves under an oppressive regime. What are those parents with their children doing in Palestine?

What are Americans doing in other people's countries killing families?

Remove that log from your eye before you point out a mote in someone elses. You are the one who went to someone elses country and killed women and children. What did the people you killed do to you or yours?

Suicide bombers are killing themselves under an oppressive regime. What are those parents with their children doing in Palestine?

Sell their children into being suicide bombers, for cold cash.


What are Americans doing in other people's countries killing families?

What are Islamic suicide bombers, Moslem Terrorist, and al Quada doing in other countries killing other peoples families?

What was OBL doing issuing a Fatwa against America.


On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."



Remove that log from your eye before you point out a mote in someone elses. You are the one who went to someone elses country and killed women and children. What did the people you killed do to you or yours?

Take your own advice first, when you take that Giant Redwood out of your eye, maybe you will have room to preach.

Just see how easy it is for someone sitting in a comfortable house, with the time on their hands, to preach about killing (yourself or someone else).
War, the advocation and condemnation of it too, only looks good to those who don't have to fight in one, or live in one.

Respect the enemy dead. Is that why they paid Captain R 80,000 shekels for shooting a schoolgirl dead?

So how many Palestinian/Lebanese men, women and children is Israel still holding captive without due process? 4,000? 10,000?

isnt hezbullah keeping another israeli soldier gone missing? do they not have information on ron arad as well?

its ironic that samir kuntar is alive and well with a degree paid for by the israelis when hezbullah doesnt reveal a thing about the soldiers it kidnapped.


by the way, what are the names of those lebanese prisoners?

Just see how easy it is for someone sitting in a comfortable house, with the time on their hands, to preach about killing (yourself or someone else).
War, the advocation and condemnation of it too, only looks good to those who don't have to fight in one, or live in one.

i thought israel is a pile of shit :p

no no, dont reply.

you know i keep on hearing on the thousands lebanese prisoners all the time, yet i have not seen a single proof. i mean, this what hezbullah demanded:

Lebanese prisoners in Israel have been a source of contention between Lebanon and Israel and were an issue in the 2006 Lebanon War. The number of such detainees is disputed. According to the Lebanese organization Hezbollah, there are currently two Lebanese citizens in Israeli prisons, but Israel denies holding them.[1] Hezbollah had demanded the release of Lebanese prisoners as as condition for releasing Israeli reservists Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, captured in the raid which sparked the 2006 Lebanon War.[2] On July 16, 2008, the Israel Prison Service released five Lebanese prisoners in exchange for the remains of Goldwasser and Regev.

so where are those 10,000 prisoners? do we even have room for them? why keep so many?

And those rows of coffins in the 1st picture would still be alive had Nasrallah not started the war in the first place. I wonder how much of his "victory" parades and speeches do the Lebanese buy? One thing they don't buy is the ridiculous assertion that Nasrallah started the war. It's perfectly obvious to the Lebanese who is the aggressor, and who was just invaded and stomped on yet again.

It might not look like much of a victory from the outside, but simply not being occupied - forcing the Israelis to go home - might be seen as an improvement over the past.

One thing they don't buy is the ridiculous assertion that Nasrallah started the war. It's perfectly obvious to the Lebanese who is the aggressor, and who was just invaded and stomped on yet again.

It might not look like much of a victory from the outside, but simply not being occupied - forcing the Israelis to go home - might be seen as an improvement over the past.

so the UN report was a lie? hezbullah didnt attacked israel with rockets and invaded the border?

so the UN report was a lie? hezbullah didnt attacked israel with rockets and invaded the border? The Israelis had been preparing that invasion for weeks, and making border incursions on land (the aerial ones were routine) for as long as that border has been re-established.

They didn't even enable the Lebanese to pick up the minefields from their previous invasions, saving time and trouble on this one.

One thing they don't buy is the ridiculous assertion that Nasrallah started the war. It's perfectly obvious to the Lebanese who is the aggressor, and who was just invaded and stomped on yet again.

It might not look like much of a victory from the outside, but simply not being occupied - forcing the Israelis to go home - might be seen as an improvement over the past.

I'm not interested in arguing over who started the war as it is plainly obvious. But re: who really won, let's just say Nasrallah's ability to bullshit has affected even me! Up until I saw the clear difference between the 2 pictures above I too thought that Hizballah won both in 2006 and this week.

You could look at it from this angle or that, but the "traditional" (:rolleyes: ) way of comparing damage + dead/injured hits you with the undisputed facts, straight on the head.

It's a completely inversed universe back in Lebanon. They welcome a childkiller who bashed a little girl's brains in with his hands as a national hero, and they have victory parades to celebrate the collosal 6-billion's worth of damage that Nasrallah's war has inflicted + 1200 dead + 4400 wounded. And Nasrallah threatenes more abductions to inflict another "victory" like this on Lebanon.

Hey, be my f'n guest. This time the IDF response will be much worse, and an even greater "victory" will be inflicted upon Lebanon, so that they may have even bigger victory "celebrations" and throw adoration at the subhuman that brought these fortunes on the Lebanese.

See, at least you (iceaura) can see that Lebanon/Hizballah are worse off, and are just trying to spin, but in the Arab world and in Lebanon these "achievements" are actually considered great victories.

I'm not interested in arguing over who started the war as it is plainly obvious.

Yeah its very clear that Aita as-Shaab is in Lebanon, not Israel


See, at least you (iceaura) can see that Lebanon/Hizballah are worse off, and are just trying to spin, but in the Arab world and in Lebanon these "achievements" are actually considered great victories.

This from the people who have been milking the Holocaust for all its worth while Holocaust survivors live in poverty. Heh. "Never again"*, indeed.


*restrictions apply, must be Jewish to qualify.

This from the people who have been milking the Holocaust for all its worth while Holocaust survivors live in poverty. Heh. "Never again"*, indeed.


*restrictions apply, must be Jewish to qualify.

Yes, Never Again, and that includes the, The Moslem Sates, never being able to inflict a Nazi Style Holocaust on Jews in Israel.

Jewish exodus from Arab lands:

The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. According to official Arab statistics, 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s. Some 600,000 resettled in Israel. Their descendants, and those of Iranian and Turkish Jews, now number 3.06 million of Israel's 5.4 to 5.8 million Jewish citizens. [1] WOJAC estimates that Jewish property in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[2][3] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). [1][3]


On May 16, 1948, The New York Times recorded a series of measures taken by the Arab League to marginalize and persecute the Jewish residents of Arab League member states. It reported on the "text of a law drafted by the Political Committee of the Arab League, which was intended to govern the legal status of Jewish residents of Arab League countries. It provides that, beginning on an unspecified date, all Jews except citizens of non-Arab states would be considered 'members of the Jewish minority state of Palestine.' Their bank accounts would be frozen and used to finance resistance to 'Zionist ambitions in Palestine.' Jews believed to be active Zionists would be interned and their assets confiscated."

IN 1951, the Iraqi government passed legislation that made affiliation with Zionism a felony and ordered "the expulsion of Jews who refused to sign a statement of anti-Zionism." This pushed tens of thousands of Jews to leave Iraq, while much of their property was confiscated by the state.

In 1967, many Egyptian Jews were detained and tortured, and Jewish homes confiscated. In Libya that year, the government "urged the Jews to leave the country temporarily," permitting each to take one suitcase and the equivalent of $50.

In 1970, the Libyan government issued new laws confiscating all the assets of Libya's Jews, issuing in their stead 15-year bonds. But when the bonds matured, no compensation was paid. Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi justified this on the grounds that "the alignment of the Jews with Israel, the Arab nations' enemy, has forfeited their right to compensation."

heh, comparing the holocaust to the "exodus" after the nakba.

You should talk, look at native Americans, the return of the St Louis, the 30 something countries bombed since WWII, the nuking of Japan, Vietnam and currently, the occupation of foreign countries by US troops. Americans have the least moral ground on earth to comment on anyone else.

heh, comparing the holocaust to the "exodus" after the nakba.

You should talk, look at native Americans, the return of the St Louis, the 30 something countries bombed since WWII, the nuking of Japan, Vietnam and currently, the occupation of foreign countries by US troops. Americans have the least moral ground on earth to comment on anyone else.

Yes. SAM look to the Giant Redwood Log, in your eye before pointing anywere else.

SAM & Buffalo,

Guys, please take your unrelated discussions (Japan, WW2, Libya, Jewish exodus, etc...) to another thread...

I'd like to discuss the topic mentioned in the OP please.

Do you think the Palestinians should ask for all the imprisoned men women and children that Israel is holding captive in return for Shalit?

Do you think the Palestinians should ask for all the imprisoned men women and children that Israel is holding captive in return for Shalit?

Only if they accept them in the same physical condition as Shalit, eye for eye, blood for blood, isn't that the way of Islam?

If dead, as the Israel soldiers were returned, then they should be returned dead.

Sharia' and Islamic Blood Law.

Sure, if thats what Israel wants. Better dead than tortured. Especially children.

Sure, if thats what Israel wants. Better dead than tortured. Especially children.

Seems the Palestinians are very good at doing that.

Jan 17, 2001 - Ofir Rahum, 16, of Ashkelon, traveled to Jerusalem to meet a young woman with whom he had conducted a relationship over the Internet. She then drove him toward Ramallah. At a prearranged location, another vehicle drove up and three Palestinian gunmen inside shot Rahum more than 15 times. One terrorist drove off with Rahum's body and dumped it, while the others fled in the second vehicle

Mar 26, 2001 - Shalhevet Pass, age 10 months, was killed by sniper fire at the entrance to the Avraham Avinu neighborhood in Hebron

Mar 28, 2001 - Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat, 15, of Givat Shmuel and Naftali Lanzkron, 13, of Petah Tikva were killed in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Four people were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 9, 2001 - Yossi Ish-Ran, 14, and Kobi Mandell, 14, both of Tekoa, were found stoned to death in a cave about 200 meters from the small community south of Jerusalem where they lived.

June 1, 2001 - Marina Berkovizki, 17, Anya Kazachkov, 16, of Holon; Katherine Kastaniyada-Talkir, 15, of Ramat Gan; Aleksei Lupalu, 16, of the Ukraine; Mariana Medvedenko, 16, of Tel Aviv; Irina Nepomneschi, 16, of Bat Yam;Yulia Nelimov, 16, of Tel Aviv; Raisa Nimrovsky, 15, of Netanya; Liana Sakiyan, 16, of Tel Aviv; Maria Tagilchev, 14, of Netanya; and Irena Usdachi, 18, of Holon were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday. Yevgenia Dorfman, 15, of Bat Yam died subsequently from their injuries. 120 people were wounded in the bombing.

June 11, 2001 - Yehuda Shoham, aged 5 months, of Shilo, died of injuries incurred in a fatal stoning on June 5. He was critically injured by a rock thrown at the family's car near Shilo in Samaria.

July 26, 2001 - Ronen Landau, 17, of Givat Ze'ev, was shot and killed by Palestinian terrorists while returning home from Jerusalem with his father.

Aug 9, 2001 -Michal Raziel, 16, of Jerusalem; Malka Roth, 15, of Jerusalem Ra'aya Schijveschuurder, 14, of Neria; Avraham Yitzhak Schijveschuurder, 4, of Neria; Hemda Schijveschuurder, 2, of Neria; Tamara Shimashvili, 8, of Jerusalem; and Yocheved Shoshan, 10, of Jerusalem were killed and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 9, 2001 - Aliza Malka, 17, a boarding student at Kibbutz Merav, was killed by terrorists in a drive-by shooting at the entrance to the kibbutz in the Gilboa region

Nov 4, 2001 - Shoshana Ben Ishai, 16, of Betar Illit and Menashe (Meni) Regev, 14, of Jerusalem were killed when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire with a sub-machine gun shortly before 16:00 at a No. 25 Egged bus at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 45 people were injured in the attack.

Dec 1, 2001 - Assaf Avitan, 15, of Jerusalem, Ya'akov Danino, 17, of Jerusalem, Golan Turgeman, 15, of Jerusalem, Adam Weinstein, 14, of Givon Hahadasha when explosive devices were detonated by two suicide bombers close to 11:30 P.M. Saturday night on Ben Yehuda Street, the pedestrian mall in the center of Jerusalem.

Dec 12, 2001 - Yair Amar, 13, of Emmanuel, Avraham Nahman Nitzani, 17, of Betar Illit; were killed when three terrorists attacked a No. 189 Dan bus and several passenger cars with a roadside bomb, anti-tank grenades, and light arms fire near the entrance to Emmanuel in Samaria at 18:00 P.M. About 30 others were injured. Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 16, 2002 - Nehemia Amar, 15, and Keren Shatsky, 15, both of Ginot Shomron were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up on Saturday night at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron in Samaria. Rachel Thaler, 16, of Ginot Shomron died of her wounds on February 27. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 2, 2002 - Shiraz Nehmad, 7, Liran Nehmad, 3, of Rishon Lezion; Shaul Nehmad, 15, of Rishon Lezion; Lidor Ilan, 12, and his sister Oriah Ilan, 18 months, of Rishon Lezion; Ya'akov Avraham, 7 months, of Jerusalem. Avraham Eliahu Nehmad, 7, of Rishon Lezion, were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

Mar 9, 2002 - Avia Malka, 9 months, of South Africa, when two Palestinians opened fire and threw grenades at cars and pedestrians in the coastal city of Netanya on Saturday close to the city's boardwalk and hotels.

Mar 12, 2002 Atara Livne, 15, of Kibbutz Hanita was killed when two terrorists opened fire from an ambush on Israeli vehicles.

Mar 29, 2002 - Rachel Levy, 17 killed when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem.

Mar 31, 2002 -The brothers Ran Koren, 18, and Gal Koren , 15, of Haifa killed with a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall.

May 22, 2002 - Elmar Dezhabrielov, 16 a suicide bomber detonated himself in the Rothschild Street downtown pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion.

May 28, 2002 - Netanel Riachi, 17, of Kochav Ya'akov; Gilad Stiglitz, 14, of Yakir; and Avraham Siton, 17, of Shilo - three yeshiva high school students - were killed when a Palestinian gunman infiltrated the community and opened fire on the teenagers playing basketball.

June 11, 2002 - Hadar Hershkowitz, 14, of Herzliya was killed and 15 others were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber set off a relatively small pipe bomb at a shwarma restaurant in Herzliya.

June 18, 2002 -Shani Avi-Zedek, 15, of Jerusalem, Galila Bugala, 11, of Jerusalem; in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A.

June 19, 2002 - Shmuel Yerushalmi, 17, of Shilo , and Gal Eisenman, 5, of Ma'ale Adumim, when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post at the French Hill intersection in northern Jerusalem.

June 20, 2002 Neria Shabo, 16, Zvika Shabo, 12, and Avishai Shabo, 5 were murdered when a terrorist entered their home in Itamar.

July 16, 2002 - Sarah Tiferet Shilon, 8 months, of Emmanuel; Yonatan Gamliel, 16, of Emmanuel. a terrorist attack on Dan bus No. 189 traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel.

Oct 21, 2002 - Osnat Abramov, 16, of Holon; 14 people were killed and some 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms of explosives was detonated next to a No. 841 Egged bus from Kiryat Shmona to Tel-Aviv, while traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 toward Hadera.

Nov 10, 2002 - Revital Ohayon, 34, and her two sons, Matan, 5, and Noam, were killed when a terrorist infiltrated the kibbut metzer.

Nov 21, 2002 - Ilan Perlman, 8, of Jerusalem; Yafit Ravivo, 14 of Jerusalem; Michael Sharshevsky, 16, and his mother ,of Jerusalem were killed and some 50 wounded by a suicide bomber on a No. 20 Egged bus on Mexico Street in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood of Jerusalem.

Mar 5, 2003 - Smadar Firstater, 16, of Haifa; Kamar Abu Hamed, 12, of Daliat al-Carmel; Daniel Haroush, 16, of Safed; Tom Hershko, 15, of Haifa; Elizabeth Katzman, 17, of Haifa; Tal Kerman, 17, of Haifa , Abigail Litle, 14, of Haifa; Yuval Mendelevitch, 13, of Haifa; Asaf Zur (Zollinger), 17, of Haifa. were killed and 53 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus #37 on Moriah Blvd. in the Carmel section of Haifa, en route to Haifa University.

June 5, 2003 - Moran Menachem, 17 of Jerusalem, were found near Hadassah Ein Karem Hospital in Jerusalem, brutally beaten and stabbed to death

June 17, 2003 - Noam Leibowitz, 7, of Yemin Orde was killed and three members of her family wounded in a shooting attack near the Kibbutz Eyal

Aug 10, 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hizbullah terrorists in Lebanon.

Aug 19, 2003 - Avraham Bar-Or, 12, of Jerusalem; Binyamin Bergman, 15, of Jerusalem; Elisheva Meshulami, 16, of Bnei Brak; Tehilla Nathanson, 3, of Zichron Ya'acov; Issachar Reinitz, 9, of Netanya; Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, of New Square, New York (and his mother), Shmuel Zargari, 11 months, of Jerusalem were killed and over 130 wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood.

Oct 4, 2003 - Tomer Almog, 9, and Assaf Staier, 11, all of Haifa (and their father, grandmother and grandfather), Liran Zer-aviv 4, and Noya Zer-Aviv , 1, all of Kibbutz Yagur.(and their parents) were killed, including four children, and 60 wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist from Jenin in the Maxim restaurant in Haifa.

Let me guess, this is from the same "media" which does not discuss Americans (http://informationclearinghouse.info/article6492.htm) who rape children to make their country "safe"

For a non-official guerilla force, you have to give them credit. They have quite a bite considering their size.

However, I don't support them anymore. I used to, but not any more.

Without the Hezbollah, Israel would still be occupying Lebanon. Notice they have freed all Lebanese prisoners, dead or alive and kicked the Israelis out. Palestinians still have a few thousand people [8000? 10000?] in Israeli prisons and are still under occupation.

More lies from Information SAM. SPAM should just put up her own $5 web sites because anyone can do it now. The beauty of the internet, making people dumber every day.

Without the Hezbollah, Israel would still be occupying Lebanon. Notice they have freed all Lebanese prisoners, dead or alive and kicked the Israelis out. Palestinians still have a few thousand people [8000? 10000?] in Israeli prisons and are still under occupation.

And Palestinians are still trying to murder Israelis, daily.

And Palestinians are still trying to murder Israelis, daily.

Meh, you have to remember why they are trying to "murder" Israelis. It is like saying Washington was "murdering" the British.


However, I think they should both agree to live on the land mutually.

For a non-official guerilla force, you have to give them credit. They have quite a bite considering their size.

However, I don't support them anymore. I used to, but not any more.

They are good at -some- things... but unless words no longer have any meaning, they had no victory.

Why don't you support them anymore? And why did you use to?

Meh, you have to remember why they are trying to "murder" Israelis. It is like saying Washington was "murdering" the British.

Actually Washington did the same thing the Israelis did.

Created a Country.



However, I think they should both agree to live on the land mutually.

Not possable with any Moslem dominated population, and Moslems would dominate the population.


Zimmis (those in custody) are non-Muslim subjects who live in Muslim countries and agree to pay the Jizya (tribute) in exchange for protection and safety, and to be subject to Islamic law


The Jizya (tribute)
Jizya literally means penalty. It is a protection tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic regimes, confirming their legal status. Mawdudi states that "the acceptance of the Jizya establishes the sanctity of their lives and property, and thereafter neither the Islamic state, nor the Muslim public have any right to violate their property, honor or liberty." Paying the Jizya is a symbol of humiliation and submission because Zimmis are not regarded as citizens of the Islamic state although they are, in most cases, natives to the country.


Zimmis and Religious Practices
Muslims believe that the Zimmis are Mushrikun (polytheists) for they see the belief in the Trinity as belief in three gods. Islam is the only true religion, they claim. Therefore, to protect Muslims from corruption, especially against the unforgivable sin of shirk (polytheism), its practice is forbidden among Muslims, because it is considered the greatest abomination. When Christians practice it publicly, it becomes an enticement and exhortation to apostasy. It is significant here to notice that according to Muraghi, Zimmis and infidels are polytheists and therefore, must have the same treatment.

According to Muslim jurists, the following legal ordinances must be enforced on Zimmis (Christians and Jews alike) who reside among Muslims:

1)
Zimmis are not allowed to build new churches, temples, or synagogues. They are allowed to renovate old churches or houses of worship provided they do not allow to add any new construction. "Old churches" are those which existed prior to Islamic conquests and are included in a peace accord by Muslims. Construction of any church, temple, or synagogue in the Arab Peninsula (Saudi Arabia) is prohibited. It is the land of the Prophet and only Islam should prevail there. Yet, Muslims, if they wish, are permitted to demolish all non-Muslim houses of worship in any land they conquer.

2)
Zimmis are not allowed to pray or read their sacred books out loud at home or in churches, lest Muslims hear their prayers.

3)
Zimmis are not allowed to print their religious books or sell them in public places and markets. They are allowed to publish and sell them among their own people, in their churches and temples.

4)
Zimmis are not allowed to install the cross on their houses or churches since it is a symbol of infidelity.

5)
Zimmis are not permitted to broadcast or display their ceremonial religious rituals on radio or television or to use the media or to publish any picture of their religious ceremonies in newspaper and magazines.

6)
Zimmis are not allowed to congregate in the streets during their religious festivals; rather, each must quietly make his way to his church or temple.

7)
Zimmis are not allowed to join the army unless there is indispensable need for them in which case they are not allowed to assume leadership positions but are considered mercenaries.

It looks like Americans are becoming more and more irrelevant as a power equation:


As President George W. Bush's term in office approaches its end, his administration's diplomatic heft has predictably diminished. Washington's missteps in Iraq and Afghanistan have also sapped the region's confidence in the administration's vision. "In many ways, the countries in the region are looking past the Bush administration and seeking their own answers to the region's problems" said Imad Moustapha, Damascus's ambassador to the U.S., in an interview.

A collection of peacemakers, some unlikely, has stepped into the breach. In May, Qatar successfully pushed a peace deal in Lebanon that saw Iranian-backed Hezbollah gain extensive new political powers at the expense of Beirut's Western-backed government. Last month, Egypt brokered a military truce between Israel and the Palestinian faction Hamas, an Iranian ally that last year violently overran the Gaza Strip.

Turkey is mediating indirect peace talks between Israel and Syria. Even impoverished Yemen is getting in on the act, pushing for reconciliation between Hamas and rival faction Fatah.

Through the negotiations, say diplomats and analysts, Israel and Arab governments are positioning themselves for a shift in American foreign policy, no matter who wins November elections.

Hammering that home, Sen. Barak Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, is touring the Middle East this week. He has advocated stepped-up engagement with Iran and Syria.

"The U.S. administration is a lame duck, and regional players are working to serve their own interests," says Diaa Rashwan, a Cairo-based political analyst.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121660033016269181.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

So far American "intervention" has only served their own interests and everyone now realises that. Maybe now we can have a resolution to the Israel problem in the ME. Hopefully, it will mean that Israelis can recognise Palestinian rights and stop giving those rights to 2000 year Jewish generations from Europe and America.

They are good at -some- things... but unless words no longer have any meaning, they had no victory.

Why don't you support them anymore? And why did you use to?

I used to because I used to follow Assad. However, I see now that Assad is a corrupt fool (but so is Olmert) and both of them are only idiots trying to stay in power

Also, I don't support them anymore because I sincerely believe Palestinians and Israelis have so much in common, unity would be better than war, and Hesbollah are a threat to unity.


Semitic Unity 4Ever

Actually Washington did the same thing the Israelis did.

Created a Country.
But he fought the British who were trying to occupy him





Not possable with any Moslem dominated population, and Moslems would dominate the population.

Why isn't it possible?

Israelis do not consider themselves Semitic. They want to be western Caucasians, not Middle Eastern Semites. Which is strange since they did not consider themselves anything but Jews in the 2000 years before that, when they were in the West. A confused bunch of people.

Did you stop supporting Assad just as you moved out of Syria?

Buffalo, that's in Saudi, perhaps, but in Lebanon and Syria, for instance, Christians and Jews and Muslims alike worship freely.

Israelis do not consider themselves Semitic. They want to be western Caucasians, not Middle Eastern Semites. Which is strange since they did not consider themselves anything but Jews in the 2000 years before that, when they were in the West. A confused bunch of people.

They want to be? Then those who want that will be eliminated. True Israelis are proud of their Israeli heritage, and Israeli heritage is Semitic, not "Western Caucasians"

Did you stop supporting Assad just as you moved out of Syria?

No. In fact, only very recently did I stop. After I and my friend thought up the idea of "Semitic Unity"

They want to be? Then those who want that will be eliminated. True Israelis are proud of their Israeli heritage, and Israeli heritage is Semitic, not "Western Caucasians"

Really? What Israeli heritage? The ones where they fought Roman occupation and killing of natives?:rolleyes:

Israeli culture is western, not Jewish.



No. In fact, only very recently did I stop. After I and my friend thought up the idea of "Semitic Unity"

So you support European and Russian immigrants who are occupying and killing native Semites because they have a "backward" un-Western culture. Heh. :p

Really? What Israeli heritage? The ones where they fought Roman occupation and killing of natives?:rolleyes:

Israeli culture is western, not Jewish.
Perhaps today it is, but it's been corrupted. I'm speaking more of Israelites, who are Semitic.




So you support European and Russian immigrants who are occupying and killing native Semites because they have a "backward" un-Western culture. Heh. :p

No, I'm not speaking of the European immigrants. I'm speaking of native Israelites.

That's the problem, Norsefire - the Jews of Israel aren't Semites. The Jews of Israel are descendents of Turkic pagans - not of the Biblical Hebrews. The true Semites are the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Palestinians who have been relocated due to non-Semitic "Jews" under political Zionism. And you support this? You're pathetic.

Kadark the Ancient

That's the problem, Norsefire - the Jews of Israel aren't Semites. The Jews of Israel are descendents of Turkic pagans - not of the Biblical Hebrews. The true Semites are the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Palestinians who have been relocated due to non-Semitic "Jews" under political Zionism. And you support this? You're pathetic.

Kadark the Ancient

No, I'm speaking of Hebrews, Israelites, not Slavic Israelis

However, if these Slavic Israelis conform to and embrace the Semitic banner, and those that don't are dealt with, what's the problem?

No, I'm speaking of Hebrews, Israelites, not Slavic Israelis

However, if these Slavic Israelis conform to and embrace the Semitic banner, and those that don't are dealt with, what's the problem?

The problem, Norsefire, is that 80% of the Jews worldwide whom you are attempting to "unite" with are Ashkenazic, meaning they have as much Semitic heritage as the tribal men of Congo.

That is, none whatsoever.

Kadark the Turk

But that means only that they can't be true Semites by blood. However, they can still embrace Semitism and become Semites that way.

But that means only that they can't be true Semites by blood. However, they can still embrace Semitism and become Semites that way.

Hah!

Who said they wanted to embrace Semitism? They're happy the way they are.

Kadark the Gargantuan

Hah!

Who said they wanted to embrace Semitism? They're happy the way they are.

Kadark the Gargantuan

I'm sure some will, and those who won't, can leave.

That's the problem, Norsefire - the Jews of Israel aren't Semites. The Jews of Israel are descendents of Turkic pagans - not of the Biblical Hebrews.

That's the version of "History" that many anti Semites (who call themselves "anti Zionists") embraced to justify the propaganda that they and their previous generations have been fed.

2000 years in Europe does not a Middle Easterner make.

That's the version of "History" that many anti Semites (who call themselves "anti Zionists") embraced to justify the propaganda that they and their previous generations have been fed.

there is a difference between anti-zionism and and anti-semitism. The fact that they frequently overlap doesn't make them one and the same.

there is a difference between anti-zionism and and anti-semitism. The fact that they frequently overlap doesn't make them one and the same.

Now prove that?, and which ones? and are the end results any different?

From George Orwell's Animal Farm

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/7.html


As they approached the farm Squealer, who had unaccountably been absent
during the fighting, came skipping towards them, whisking his tail and
beaming with satisfaction. And the animals heard, from the direction of
the farm buildings, the solemn booming of a gun.

"What is that gun firing for?" said Boxer.

"To celebrate our victory!" cried Squealer.

"What victory?" said Boxer. His knees were bleeding, he had lost a shoe
and split his hoof, and a dozen pellets had lodged themselves in his hind
leg.

"What victory, comrade? Have we not driven the enemy off our soil--the
sacred soil of Animal Farm?"

"But they have destroyed the windmill. And we had worked on it for two
years!"

"What matter? We will build another windmill. We will build six windmills
if we feel like it. You do not appreciate, comrade, the mighty thing that
we have done.

...

But when the animals saw the green flag flying, and heard the gun firing
again--seven times it was fired in all--and heard the speech that Napoleon
made, congratulating them on their conduct, it did seem to them after all
that they had won a great victory. The animals slain in the battle were
given a solemn funeral. Boxer and Clover pulled the wagon which served as
a hearse, and Napoleon himself walked at the head of the procession. Two
whole days were given over to celebrations. There were songs, speeches,
and more firing of the gun, and a special gift of an apple was bestowed on
every animal, with two ounces of corn for each bird and three biscuits for
each dog. It was announced that the battle would be called the Battle of
the Windmill, and that Napoleon had created a new decoration, the Order
of the Green Banner...

From George Orwell's Animal Farm

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/7.html

Though Provoking, Order of the Green Banner.

Now prove that?, and which ones? and are the end results any different?

Well if you looked at the definetion of the two words they are different. Anti-zionism would be the belief that the jewish people don't count as a nation and therefore do not need a nationial homeland. Anti-semitism is hatred of jewish people.

Which ones? that question doesn't make any sense. The end results from the two overlap in that both think that Israel is an illegitmate country other than that there isn't much crossover between the two. An Anti-zionist who is not anti semitic would still support civil rights for jewish people and accept their right 2 exist just because the 2 are commonly seen together and a large segment of the jewish people view the 2 as one and the same does not make them that way.

Er, no, you're wrong. Anti-Semitism is not a hatred of Jewish people, it's a hatred of Semites, although usually intended are Jewish people, they are not the only Semites.


But I stand by what I said: ultimately, Israelis and Arabs are brothers, and it is foreign nationals that are causing us against each other. We must not only eliminate the corruption within ourselves (Assad, Olmert, Hariri, Ahmedinijad, Nasrallah), but also break the leash that the West has on us.

But I stand by what I said: ultimately, Israelis and Arabs are brothers, and it is foreign nationals that are causing us against each other. We must not only eliminate the corruption within ourselves (Assad, Olmert, Hariri, Ahmedinijad, Nasrallah), but also break the leash that the West has on us.

I like most of this part.


Er, no, you're wrong. Anti-Semitism is not a hatred of Jewish people, it's a hatred of Semites, although usually intended are Jewish people, they are not the only Semites.

You're concentrating on the semantics instead of the popular meaning. I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose, as it is a despicable technique by anti-Semites (i.e. people who hate Jews, exclusively) to devalue that word and to hurt them.

Getting back to my point about Hizballah and people in Lebanon who are celebrating: what the hell are they celebrating exactly? They should be mourning and tearing Nasrallah apart. Kuntar too - because 1200 people (mostly innocent civilians, according to Nasrallah) have died, so that 1 despicable child-killer + 4 terrorists can go free. Nasrallah should be lynched on the streets.

Yes, from SAM who believes it is right and just to buy children as suicide bombers to kill other children.Now I;m sure that SAM doesn't support that. The funny thing is, if both sides agreed to be the same religion then there wouldn't be a problem. Isn't that amazing!?!

Er, no, you're wrong. Anti-Semitism is not a hatred of Jewish people, it's a hatred of Semites, although usually intended are Jewish people, they are not the only Semites.


But I stand by what I said: ultimately, Israelis and Arabs are brothers, and it is foreign nationals that are causing us against each other. We must not only eliminate the corruption within ourselves (Assad, Olmert, Hariri, Ahmedinijad, Nasrallah), but also break the leash that the West has on us.

um iranians aren't semites. their aryan.

RE: Opening Post

This really wasn't a War it was a Battle. I'd say that the Hezballah probably got what they wanted.

RE:: Semitic

What exactly does it mean to be Semitic? Can you be an African Semite? What if your grandfathers mothers dad was a Semite? Then can you be one?

Please - this is why I say race is kind of stupid...

RE:: Semitic

What exactly does it mean to be Semitic? Can you be an African Semite? What if your grandfathers mothers dad was a Semite? Then can you be one?

Please - this is why I say race is kind of stupid...

Semites is a cultural/linguistic category, from the Hebrew Shem, and refers to a member of the group originating from Canaanites, Phoenicians, Arabs and Hebrews. I think Ethiopians are also a part of the group.


The concept of "Semitic" peoples is derived from Biblical accounts of the origins of the cultures known to the ancient Hebrews. Those closest to them in culture and language were generally deemed to be descended from their forefather Shem. Enemies were often said to be descendants of his cursed nephew, Canaan. In Genesis 10:21-31, Shem is described as the father of Aram, Asshur, and Arpachshad: the Biblical ancestors of the Arabs, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Sabaeans, and Hebrews, etc., all of whose languages are closely related; the language family containing them was therefore named Semitic by linguists. However, the Canaanites and Amorites also spoke a language belonging to this family, and are therefore also termed Semitic in linguistics, despite being described in Genesis as sons of Ham (See Sons of Noah). Shem is also described in Genesis as the father of Elam and Lud, although the Elamites and Lydians usually thought to descend from these spoke languages that were not Semitic.

RE: Opening Post

This really wasn't a War it was a Battle. I'd say that the Hezballah probably got what they wanted.

What they really want is to be "martyred". If so, then yes, they got what they wanted.

Re: war vs. battle, it was a campaign, which is somewhere in between.

They did not have a choice. Israel had planned the battle months in advance (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/09/syria.israelandthepalestinians), the two soldiers in Aita al Chaab (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html) were bait. The Hezbollah wanted to keep the Israelis out and get the Lebanese back from prison and they did. As a small group with rudimentary arms against a fully equipped army, thats an amazing accomplishment.

As for what they gained? Previously, it was just Shia Iran behind them, now pan-Arab opinion (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/28/africa/web.0728arabs.php) is behind them. The televised slamming of Lebanon by Israel gave them credibility and legitimacy.

I won't argue over who started what, and about the goals (because you're a nut and it's pointless), but I'll just point out that your "pan-Arab opinion" article is from the end of July, 2006, which was in the middle of the war itself.

If you read recent op-eds from Arab / Muslim op-eds about the swap you will find a different picture.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331004306&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

And while it is apparently true that the Arab street sees Nasrallah as the #1 most admired Arab leader, that should be put in perspective, as Assad is #2, and Ahmedinejad is #3, that despite Assad and Ahmedinejad being disliked (gently speaking) by the Arab league, and especially the gulf countries. Also, I think it is the result of the previous generation of Arab leaders indoctrinating their population with idealism of "revolutionary struggles" which is affecting today's population's minds and good sense.

Now let's get back to your 2006 article. When the bombs were falling, the Arab nations had to show objection to it because of diplomatic considerations. By not criticizing Israel they look as if they're complicit, or as if they are assisting logistically or morally the "Israeli enemy". Even so, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, the Sunni heavyweights condemned Hizballah, and since the end of the 2nd Lebanon war have pushed for Hizballah to be disarmed, and have complained several times that it hasn't been disarmed -- especially Saudi Arabia.

Everybody in the Middle East knows that Hizballah is Iran's and Syria's agents. Iran is feared and distrusted as a hegemonic state trying to "take over" the Persian gulf, and as a trouble maker that stirs trouble through the Shia populations in neighbouring countries (not just Iraq). And Syria, as Iran's biggest ally, is detested because of Assad's alliance with Iran, against the interests of countries which would otherwise be natural allies with Syria -- other Arab nations. What I'm getting at is that Hizballah, as the agent of these 2 "enemy" states, is not liked by the Arab rulers. It may be admired by the Arab street for "beating Israel" (see the OP about that :rolleyes: ), but the rulers who see beyond the propaganda don't like Hizballah one bit.

-----------------------

But that is just the issue of public opinion. In the inversed universe of Arab discourse, when an Arab ruler manages to have 1200 of "his" people die, with a death ratio of 9:1, and property damage ratio of approximately the same level, instead of declaring a day of mourning, or hanging the guy as a traitor, or at least hold an inquiry and get rid of the incompetent upper echelon of Hizballah, including Nasrallah himself, instead all of that, a victory is declared, and mass demonstrations follow.

It's like an episode of Sliders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliders)...

At least Nasser had the good sense to offer his resignation after the humiliating defeat of 1967 (which was rejected by the Egyptian public... I wonder why...) But Nasrallah is too conceited and too much of an egomaniac to do that.

For the sake of Lebanon, I hope he never tries to achieve another "glorious victory" again.

Yeah "Jerusalem Post" is a good indicator of Pan Arab opinion. hehe. Ask the man on the street in any Arab country what he thinks of Nasrallah.


"Arab unity is built on the resistance to the occupation in Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq and throughout the Arab land," a number of Jordanian activists wrote in a letter addressed to Hezbollah and published in the London-based pan-Arab daily Al Hayat. "The fate of the Arab nation and its future are all decided now in the battles between the resistance forces and the occupation forces."

In Egypt, despite some religious leaders' warnings of the danger of "Iranian-sponsored expansion of Shiism in the country," many voiced support for Hezbollah, which regularly describes Lebanon's government as a dupe of Israel and Washington neoconservatives.

"Serving Israeli interests is the foremost concern of moderate regimes backed by the U.S. in the Arab region," Ibrahim Issa, editor in chief of the Egyptian opposition daily Al Dustour, wrote May 12. "These regimes wage fierce media, political and financial attacks against Hezbollah."

"In reality," he wrote, "the Buddhist who stands up against Zionism is closer to our hearts than the Sunni who allies with Israel."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-hezbollah24-2008may24,0,4622187.story

Yeah "Jerusalem Post" is a good indicator of Pan Arab opinion. hehe. Ask the man on the street in any Arab country what he thinks of Nasrallah.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-hezbollah24-2008may24,0,4622187.story

Naturally, the "Egyptian Opposition", would support Hizballah. What is the Egyptian Opposition? It is the "Muslim Brotherhood" -- the mother of HAMAS and al-Qaeda.

And re your "rebuttle" by dissing J-Post, it's predictable and lame.

Heh and your knowledge of Arab politics is evident. :p

http://www.rap21.org/article19667.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3572228,00.html


Hizbullah Secretary-General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah will arrive in Iran to receive commendation for "restoring Lebanon" after the Second Lebanon War.
...
[T]he conference will be attended by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Ali Larijani

What a great honour! Similar such conferences in the rest of the Islamic capitals are... [crickets chirping]... nowhere to be seen.

Of course not. Can you guess why? Let me give you a hint $+kissass heads of power. The people on the other hand...



Jul 16, 2008 21:44 | Updated Jul 17, 2008 20:50
Nasrallah 'most admired' Arab leader

And thats from the jpost. For you ;)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330995271&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Of course not. Can you guess why? Let me give you a hint $+kissass heads of power. The people on the other hand...

And thats from the jpost. For you ;)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330995271&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

And also from the JPost, in the same article:


The results of the survey came as no surprise, according to Prof. Rafi Israeli of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

"It turns out that the most murderous and barbaric leaders are also the champions of the Arab world," he said Wednesday.

Israeli said a similar poll broadcast on Al-Jazeera shortly after the 2001 attacks on the United States found that Osama bin Laden was the No. 1 leader in the Arab world.

And also from the JPost, in the same article:

Heh, the Israelis are one to talk. They elected the leaders of the nakba as their Prime Ministers. :rolleyes:


“Deir Yassin massacre was not only necessary, but without it the state of Israel could not have emerged.” Menachem Begin

Thats Radovan Karadzic, circa 1940s for you.

A rift between Egypt and Iran about a movie has pissed off the Egyptian press. Here's some of the fiery rhetorric flying from one Egyptian newspaper:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1004837.html


The press in Egypt pounced on Iran with a ferocity not seen in many years. The Egyptian paper Ruz al-Yousef wrote that Iran is concocting the potential threats against it from Israel and the U.S. and that an attack against it is not realistic. The newspaper claims that the reason behind "Iran's fabrications" is tied to its efforts to gain Arab-Muslim support for its development of nuclear weapons.

"Iran's real goal is to extend its influence from the Mediterranean Sea to Asia, and to stretch its Shi'ite ideology from Tehran to Baghdad, Damascus, and Beirut," the newspaper wrote. Iran's underlying goal, wrote the paper's editor-in-chief, Abdallah Kamal, is to deny Egypt its hegemonic place in the Middle East.

The claim that Iran is developing "an Islamic bomb," which is supposedly meant to defend Muslim states, is a lie.

"The truth is that we are talking about a Persian bomb, meaning it isn't even Arab. And now, rather than have Iran win the adulation of the Arab-Muslim world by confronting Israel and the West, it decided to shatter its business with Egypt," Kamal wrote.

This is in the context of what Sunni countries think of Iran's Shi'ite revolution. Hizballah is Iran's tool to enact that revolution in Lebanon, and is the reason why Sunnis don't like it.

Uh you probably need to differentiate between government mouthpieces and public opinion. Have you met any Egyptians recently? Saudis? Syrians? Ask them what they think. Even many Iranians do not agree with Ahmedinejad, but think the Hezbollah is right to resist Israel. I've heard Iranians critical of Iran's policies say that "Sayed" Nasrullah should be Iran's diplomacy adviser, then maybe they can free the Iranians who were taken captive in South Lebanon.

Uh you probably need to differentiate between government mouthpieces and public opinion. Have you met any Egyptians recently? Saudis? Syrians? Ask them what they think. Even many Iranians do not agree with Ahmedinejad, but think the Hezbollah is right to resist Israel. I've heard Iranians critical of Iran's policies say that "Sayed" Nasrullah should be Iran's diplomacy adviser, then maybe they can free the Iranians who were taken captive in South Lebanon.

You don't, and I doubt you have, safe at daddies home in India.

While you are not so safe killing foreigners in their countries? :rolleyes:

I'm not interested in arguing over who started the war as it is plainly obvious. It is obvious. Israel started it. Almost everyone knows that except a political faction of Americans. No wonder you are puzzled about the Lebanese reactions, and are reduced to simply thinking they must be crazy, all of them together, if you think Nasrallah started the most recent and long-planned Israeli invasion of Lebanon.


But re: who really won, let's just say Nasrallah's ability to bullshit has affected even me! Up until I saw the clear difference between the 2 pictures above I too thought that Hizballah won both in 2006 and this week. If you are just going to add up the casualties, you are going to be declaring the US victors in Vietnam, Russia victorious in Afghanistan, the Germans in Russia, the Japanese in China, and so forth.

The largest gains by any political body as a result of the latest Israeil aggression were registered by Hezbollah. It ended up with more power, more control, and greater popularity than it had before. Both Israel and the central government of Lebanon ended up with less than they had before.

While you are not so safe killing foreigners in their countries? :rolleyes:

And I didn't sit on the side lines and BAM, I went out and backed what I believed, have you?

And I didn't sit on the side lines and BAM, I went out and backed what I believed, have you?

Yeah I believe we should not go to foreign countries and kill people who have never done anything to us. :p

um iranians aren't semites. their aryan.

Yes but they are a threat and a barrier

Yes but they are a threat and a barrierSo are attitudes like yours.

Yes but they are a threat and a barrier

You're completely nuts. :crazy:

Too much time in Texas if you ask me.

No, Iran really are. They are supportive of the very militia groups that turn Israel against us, and they also increase the animosity between the Semites.

As I said, we Semites are being lead to hate each other by outside, and foreign, forces. The West is forcing Israel to hate us, and Iran is forcing us to hate them.

So let us break the leash, and enforce OUR superiority on them! Semitic 4EVER!:cool:
And we can do it, through faith alone. We are the master race, just believe, my fellow Semites, and it will happen!

You're kidding right?

You're kidding right?

No, I'm passionate and righteous.

Mate, if it came to actual hand-to-hand fighting, wouldn't you rather talk about it first?
Or just throw a grenade and run (like buggery).

Mate, if it came to actual hand-to-hand fighting, wouldn't you rather talk about it first?
Or just throw a grenade and run (like buggery).

Are you speaking to me? I'm not sure I understand the relevance.

Well, who would?

No one i can think of.

They did not have a choice. Israel had planned the battle months in advance (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/09/syria.israelandthepalestinians), the two soldiers in Aita al Chaab (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html) were bait. The Hezbollah wanted to keep the Israelis out and get the Lebanese back from prison and they did. As a small group with rudimentary arms against a fully equipped army, thats an amazing accomplishment.

As for what they gained? Previously, it was just Shia Iran behind them, now pan-Arab opinion (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/28/africa/web.0728arabs.php) is behind them. The televised slamming of Lebanon by Israel gave them credibility and legitimacy.From the OP it looked like a lot of dead people to get some criminals out of prison... ... I suppose I hope that the mothers, fathers, wifes, brothers and sisters of those who did died think it was worth it.

The thing about the "bait" .... come on SAM.

From the OP it looked like a lot of dead people to get some criminals out of prison... ... I suppose I hope that the mothers, fathers, wifes, brothers and sisters of those who did died think it was worth it.

The thing about the "bait" .... come on SAM.

The thing about the bait is based on what Olmert said, if you care to read the links.

As for the dead, when you are fighting an army equipped by the Americans that does not care about collateral damages and in your own country, its not going to be otherwise. Some of those people have been captive since the 1980s, following Israel's 18 year occupation. I'm sure their families will be glad to get closure. Now Israel is out and has no more Lebanese prisoners.

S.A.M.

Not to side track but why is it you, an Indian, worries so much about Lebanon or Palestinians and Jews and the such (semetic peoples)? I mean, one would think you'd be spending much much MUCH more time rallying against the atrocities of the Burmese Junta or Kashmir or the like - you know, places the are close to India.

If you were Jewish, do you think you're opinion on the whole subject would be different?

Why do you suppose some many Jewish people fall on the side of Israel while some many Muslims fall on the side of the Hizballah?

Michael

I think people tend to be more interested in people they feel connected with. As a person from a previously occupied country, I always fall on the side of the occupied. Plus I'm socialistic by nature and again, that goes hand in hand with the exploited too.

The thing about the bait is based on what Olmert said, if you care to read the links.

As for the dead, when you are fighting an army equipped by the Americans that does not care about collateral damages and in your own country, its not going to be otherwise. Some of those people have been captive since the 1980s, following Israel's 18 year occupation. I'm sure their families will be glad to get closure. Now Israel is out and has no more Lebanese prisoners.That's one way to look at it.

As for the "bait" ... come on. Was it morally correct or incorrect for whomever to abduct the other people and hold them hostage? Simple question really. You seem to suggest that the ends justify the means. Do they?

I think people tend to be more interested in people they feel connected with. As a person from a previously occupied country, I always fall on the side of the occupied. Plus I'm socialistic by nature and again, that goes hand in hand with the exploited too.and if you were Jewish, do you think you would fall on the side of Israel of Hizballah?

and if you were Jewish, do you think you would fall on the side of Israel of Hizballah?

If I were a Jewish Indian, I would be an anti-Zionist. I don't agree with Pakistan's occupation of Kashmir either. :)


That's one way to look at it.

As for the "bait" ... come on. Was it morally correct or incorrect for whomever to abduct the other people and hold them hostage? Simple question really. You seem to suggest that the ends justify the means. Do they?

I think any soldier who infiltrates foreign territory should not expect otherwise. What would happen to an Iranian soldier caught infiltrating the US?

That's the problem, Norsefire - the Jews of Israel aren't Semites. The Jews of Israel are descendents of Turkic pagans - not of the Biblical Hebrews. The true Semites are the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Palestinians who have been relocated due to non-Semitic "Jews" under political Zionism. And you support this? You're pathetic.

Kadark the AncientThis is starting to sound more and more racest by the minute. Hail Kardark the Ancient! Or how about this: Remove the Semites from Deutschland! Hail! Hail! Hail.
:bugeye:

Kadark is Turkish and not a Semite. He's just pointing out how silly Norse sounds.

If I were a Jewish Indian, I would be an anti-Zionist. I don't agree with Pakistan's occupation of Kashmir either. :)



I think any soldier who infiltrates foreign territory should not expect otherwise. What would happen to an Iranian soldier caught infiltrating the US?I wasn't asking about Zionism I was asking about Hezballah. DO you think as a Jew you'd support Hezballah's actions or rally against them?

Ends justify the means?

I wasn't asking about Zionism I was asking about Hezballah. DO you think as a Jew you'd support Hezballah's actions or rally against them?

Ends justify the means?

Oh yes, I think any person has the right to defend their country against foreign troops. Even a civilian. Especially against a country that holds their countrymen prisoner and has occupied them for 18 years.

Kadark is Turkish and not a Semite. He's just pointing out how silly Norse sounds.Oh, in retrospect that actually makes sense. But I thought Norse was Phonetician? I thought Phoneticians resettled in North Africa - and built Carthage?

Oh yes, I think any person has the right to defend their country against foreign troops. Even a civilian. Especially against a country that holds their countrymen prisoner and has occupied them for 18 years.wait wait wait - so you're saying as a Jew you'd support the actions of Hizballah?

wait wait wait - so you're saying as a Jew you'd support the actions of Hizballah?

Sure, there are many Jews who do. Norman Finkelstein is banned from Israel because he had a meeting with Hezbollah and he's not even an anti-Zionist.


Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish American political scientist and author, specializing in Jewish-related issues and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular talks about the Lebanese militia Hezbollah and openly supports and praises their resistance: “They (Hezbollah) show courage, they show discipline, I respect that”

On Israeli defeat and consequential withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, Finkelstein says:”But the reality was — and everyone understood it — that the Israeli attitude was: We are going to knock out Hizbullah. They began planning for a new war right after they were forced to leave in 2000. They found their excuse, their pretext, in July 2006, but there is no question among rational people that Israel was never going to let the Hizbullah victory go by.”
“There is no way that the United States and Israel are going to tolerate any resistance (to their hegemony) in the Arab world.”

On the damage caused to Lebanon as a result of the resistance: “It’s better to die on your feet than to walk crawling on your knees….how can I not respect those (Hezbollah) who say they would rather die on their feet? How can I not respect that?”

I actually think they would have been justified in shooting down the IDF in Aita al Shaab. The Israelis simply had no right to be there.

Sure, there are many Jews who do. Norman Finkelstein is banned from Israel because he had a meeting with Hezballah and he's not even an anti-Zionist. I just find it ironic that you always tend to support the actions (both past and present) of those that side with your religious belief. Which is what the majority of Muslims and Jews do to. They support their own. One could say that's typical. Very VERY few support the other tribe. It's just not natural.

We can agree it's not a coincidence that most Muslims fall on the side of Muslims (even when they live WAY over in India [and even thousands of years later]) and likewise with Jews. Or even Semites perhaps for some.

And, so, it seems that if you were true to your nature then you'd act the same as a Jew. But, miraculously (now that you come to think of it), as a Jew, you find that you still side with the Muslim terrorist group Hezbahlla - which is now, for a Jewish SAM, a freedom fighting group. And the Ends DO justify the Means.

Expect generations of fighting until one side goes so far as to attempt to breed the other side into submission and is hit with a biological bomb. Welcome to Humanity, some things chnage but most stay the same. Now, about my 20th grandfathers goat...>!

You've missed my discussions with the Pakistanis here haven't you? :D

Here's one:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=82524

You've missed my discussions with the Pakistanis here haven't you? :D

Here's one:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=82524Yes, I have noticed, but .... I think this is more of a regional "Indian" thing - I mean, Pakistani are Indians after all.

So, of course, this has much more to do with your national sentiment than just with your religious belief.

That's said, I do find those conversations with DH interesting to read :)

Yes, I have noticed, but .... I think this is more of a regional "Indian" thing - I mean, Pakistani are Indians after all.

So, of course, this has much more to do with your national sentiment than just with your religious belief.

That's said, I do find those conversations with DH interesting to read :)

There's a better one, but I can't be arsed. :p

I think its also based on my knowledge, I know a lot more about Islamic societies and Indian societies because thats what my area of interest has been. I've been studying American history some and its very interesting. :mufc:

American history ... pre-colonization central America? That could be interesting. I never cared much for North American history really. I was reading a copy of old newspapers from the 1800s in my home town in MI. It's interesting to think that the town I grew up in was 90% native Americans prior to the middle of the 1800's. Then a lot of Scott's began tricking other Scott's into coming and probably pinching land off the natives. But, at that time, in agreement with the US government the Native held title to the best farm land - they just didn't realize how valuable it was. They had never made Jams nor grew the fruits that made the jams, it was all rather new to them and they basically got scammed. (or so I think, I'm not really sure what happened to most of the natives? I think prior to this they sided with the French/colonists at times and sometimes also sided with the English.

I want to learn more about Chinese history now. If I have the time that is. A trip to Nanjing and Shanghai last week was really nice :) Then perhaps more about India and then south east Asia.

Anyway, Jewish SAM seems to hold a lot of Muslim outlooks - that's interesting. Not too many Jews support Hezballah aye?

I've been studying American history some and its very interesting. :mufc:

Which era?


This is starting to sound more and more racest by the minute. Hail Kardark the Ancient! Or how about this: Remove the Semites from Deutschland! Hail! Hail! Hail.
:bugeye:

Huh? I'll take this as a joke to save you the embarrassment.

Kadark the Master

Which era?


Not by era, I was given a copy of Bury my heart at Wounded Knee and now I am reading about Washington.

Not by era, I was given a copy of Bury my heart at Wounded Knee and now I am reading about Washington.

I recommend American Holocaust by David Stannard with every fibre of my being.

Kadark the Komodo

I shall send you a link to my bookshelf. :)

I shall send you a link to my bookshelf. :)

Is that a clever way of saying you already have the book?

Kadark the Unfazed

Oh yes, I think any person has the right to defend their country against foreign troops. Even a civilian. Especially against a country that holds their countrymen prisoner and has occupied them for 18 years.

so why hezbullah invaded israel?

so why hezbullah invaded israel?

Aita al Shaab is in Lebanon.:rolleyes:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/09/01/world/0901-for-webLEBANONmap.gif

Oh, in retrospect that actually makes sense. But I thought Norse was Phonetician? I thought Phoneticians resettled in North Africa - and built Carthage?

They didn't resettle it was a colony

The Mt. Dov area (what you insist on calling "Aita al Shaab") used to temporarily (for a few decades) be part of Syria, and then won over from Syria, and annexed with the Golan. It is a formerly-Syrian area (and now Israeli). UN maps confirm it.

In actuality, all of Lebanon used to technically be part of Syria... just to throw a bit of context in there. Also, Hizballah considers all of Israel to be "occubied", so no real-estate deal will make them fuck off. "Returning" Mt. Dov to this genocidal gang will only make them start talking about the next "occubied" area. And then after that one is relinquished, the next one, and the next one, and so on and so on. Hizballah only exists to perpetuate conflict and present the Shia revolution as the solution -- not to liberate anything.

Today it's "Aita al Shaab", tomorrow it's the "7 occubied Lebanese villages", and next week it's Haifa, Ashdod, Tel Aviv, Herzlia, etc.

But anyway, here is the predictable response by SAM: running in a circle with fingers stuck in her ears repeating over and over "Aita al Shaab Aita al Shaab Aita al Shaab Aita al Shaab Aita al Shaab Aita al Shaab Aita al Shaab" and "occubation occubation occubation occubation occubation occubation occubation".

I pre-empt by urging you to take your meds. Anyway, this is the Israeli position: it is not anybody's but Israel's, and it will never be relinquished, unless it meets strategic Israeli interests.

Deal with it. :rolleyes:

Also, here's an article by one Israeli analyst (former general and head of the national security council in Israel):
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3572777,00.html



In my estimate, if we face another war in Lebanon, its results would be similar to those of the previous war. Our own improvements may be counterbalanced by improvements on the other side. As we know, Israel has no way of addressing the rocket fire. Moreover, Hizbullah has more rockets than it did in 2006, and more importantly, many of them have a range that would enable the group to keep firing even if we conquer all the area between the border and the Litani River.


So what can Israel do?



The only way to prevent another war is to make it clear that should one break out, Lebanon may be razed to the ground. Not only will the Lebanese government fear it, so would Hizbullah, which is so concerned about maintaining its legitimacy – this will deter the group, if it realizes that aggression on its part would result in destruction that would outrage the population and turn it against Hizbullah.


The writer says that contrary to everyone's belief, the non-Hizballah Lebanese are not its hostages, but rather willing partners, and that it is within their power to pull the rug from under Hizballah's feet.

I agree with the 1st estimate, but not the 2nd. Either way, I agree with his proposed solution, which is quite sad, but in the absence of a peace partner in Lebanon leaves no other choice: to threaten to - and then to follow up with - a massive bombing campaign that would raze Lebanon to the ground should Hizballah try something funny next time.

2 weeks ago I might have been against this, but after seeing the warm reception that Kuntar the child killer received by the Lebanese president, PM, and ministers, I am convinced that they are no potential allies and should be treated as Hizballah should be treated.

um otheadp um even according to israeli news sites the village of Aita al Shaab is in lebanon. Its about a mile from the border.

according to israeli news sites the village of Aita al Shaab is in lebanon. Its about a mile from the border.

I think you might be talking about Ghajar, which is a divided village, with the Israeli-Lebanese border running right in the middle of it.

If not, then please post a link. In fact, you should always post a link, especially when you're talking about a specific article.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284907,00.html


note i am not 100% certain this is an israeli news site buy some of the writing looks hebrew and there are ads for getting homes in tel-alviv so i'm pretty sure it is.

Hm...

I've always thought it was strange that SAM referred to the "Shaaba farms" with the wrong name -- and now I found the confirmation. This retard can't even bother to do her research... any mention of Israel induces violent convulsions and involuntary Turret like quacking of "occubation".

Mt. Dov, which is Hizballah's current beef with Israel, is called "Mazāri‘ Šib‘ā" in Arabic, and "Sha'aba farms" in Hebrew, not what SAM has been referring to as "Aita al Shaab". She must have concluded that "Sha'aba" and "Shaab" sound similar enough so it must be the same place.

"Aita al Shaab" is a different place, located inside Lebanon, and not occupied by anyone, other than Hizballah supporters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms

after seeing the warm reception that Kuntar the child killer received by the Lebanese president, PM, and ministers, I am convinced that they are no potential allies and should be treated as Hizballah should be treated.What about the warm receptions that the terrorist war-criminal (that bloodthirsty Hebrew who died recently, quite appropriately and in a drawn-out manner that caused all that awful grief, of a horrible disease, after having an equally fitting stroke or two) always got. You know which terrorist I mean - he led Israel for a while, straight into armed conflict at every opportunity, for a while there.

What about all the child-killers who still have a "legitimate" position in the Israeli military, all those colonels and captains who shoot Palestinian children, or run them down with armoured vehicles, as more or less a daily chore?

Hm...

I've always thought it was strange that SAM referred to the "Shaaba farms" with the wrong name -- and now I found the confirmation. This retard can't even bother to do her research... any mention of Israel induces violent convulsions and involuntary Turret like quacking of "occubation".

Mt. Dov, which is Hizballah's current beef with Israel, is called "Mazāri‘ Šib‘ā" in Arabic, and "Sha'aba farms" in Hebrew, not what SAM has been referring to as "Aita al Shaab". She must have concluded that "Sha'aba" and "Shaab" sound similar enough so it must be the same place.

"Aita al Shaab" is a different place, located inside Lebanon, and not occupied by anyone, other than Hizballah supporters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms

intresting side note the town the farms are named for is in lebanon.

What about the warm receptions that the terrorist war-criminal (that bloodthirsty Hebrew who died recently, quite appropriately and in a drawn-out manner that caused all that awful grief, of a horrible disease, after having an equally fitting stroke or two) always got. You know which terrorist I mean - he led Israel for a while, straight into armed conflict at every opportunity, for a while there.

What about all the child-killers who still have a "legitimate" position in the Israeli military, all those colonels and captains who shoot Palestinian children, or run them down with armoured vehicles, as more or less a daily chore?

Another KKK bigot and not half as amusing as SAM.

Another Jewish moron with absolutely nothing of any substance to say, except "I'm gonna go kill something".

Did you clean and polish your big gun, though? Is your swastika badge looking nice and shiny? You don't want to get a reprimand from the big child-killing general do you?

Another Jewish moron with absolutely nothing of any substance to say, except "I'm gonna go kill something".

Did you clean and polish your big gun, though? Is your swastika badge looking nice and shiny? You don't want to get a reprimand from the big child-killing general do you?

Thank you for a prime example of Bigotry, and I thank you for comparing me to the Jews, Like them I am not easy to step on, never was for my self, and after WWII and Nazis like you they aren't either.

Thank you for a prime example of Bigotry, and I thank you for comparing me to the Semites, Like them I am not easy to step on, never was for my self, and after WWII and Nazis like you they aren't either.

Semites, not just Jews:)

Thank you for a prime example of Bigotry, and I thank you for comparing me to the Jews, Like them I am not easy to step on, never was for my self, and after WWII and Nazis like you they aren't either.

pay no attention to him.

pay no attention to him.

I don't and I am proude to have been called a Jew.

I don't and I am proude to have been called a Jew.

Good. Jews are my Brothers, I will defend them as much as I would defend Syria.

That is, if they would be grateful for my sacrifice:shrug:


Like my friend Mr. Spock, right? He embraces Semitism and is proud to be a Semite.

What about all the Semites who you European Jew-wannabes keep telling everyone are your sworn enemies?
Especially after the 60 years you wonderful, un-bigoted people have killed, imprisoned, deported and dispossessed so many of them? I'd probably want to get some sort of justice, too, I might even accuse Israelis of being bigoted, non-Semitic, more or less a bunch of lost people looking for a scrap, who seem to think they have to kill at least as many Semites as the Nazis did.

What about the warm receptions that the terrorist war-criminal (that bloodthirsty Hebrew who died recently, quite appropriately and in a drawn-out manner that caused all that awful grief, of a horrible disease, after having an equally fitting stroke or two) always got. You know which terrorist I mean - he led Israel for a while, straight into armed conflict at every opportunity, for a while there.

What about all the child-killers who still have a "legitimate" position in the Israeli military, all those colonels and captains who shoot Palestinian children, or run them down with armoured vehicles, as more or less a daily chore?

Moral relativism - check.
Cynical upside down use of the language - check.
Anti-Semitism - check check check.

How are you even worthy of anybody's time, you low life creep?

And for the record, outside the Middle East it is most likely to be received as a compliment to be called a "Jew", contrary to the hugely popular belief and custom back in the Sandbox.

outside the Middle East it is most likely to be received as a compliment to be called a "Jew", contrary to the hugely popular belief and custom back in the Sandbox.But not in the Middle East, right?

There are no Jews any more, the Nazis pretty much saw to that. There's a bunch of mostly Caucasian people who want to believe in something, that possibly disappeared completely 2000 years ago, the big dream that's a big nightmare?
Now their brothers are cleaning the Semites out of Palestine.

Why does a bunch of Caucasians have the right to own land, but a bunch of Semitic peoples who have lived on the same land for at least 2000 years don't. Why do you wannabes believe this crap?

Jews have exactly the same rights to all that land as the Semites they are persecuting (like the Nazis did in Europe). The Arabs have every right to defend themselves against the repressive regime of Israel, just as the Warsaw Jews had every right to stage an uprising.

But not in the Middle East, right?

There are no Jews any more, the Nazis pretty much saw to that. There's a bunch of mostly Caucasian people who want to believe in something, that possibly disappeared completely 2000 years ago, the big dream that's a big nightmare?
Now their brothers are cleaning the Semites out of Palestine.

Why does a bunch of Caucasians have the right to own land, but a bunch of Semitic peoples who have lived on the same land for at least 2000 years don't. Why do you wannabes believe this crap?

Jews have exactly the same rights to all that land as the Semites they are persecuting (like the Nazis did in Europe). The Arabs have every right to defend themselves against the repressive regime of Israel, just as the Warsaw Jews had every right to stage an uprising.

Sorry, but the Nazis weren't as efficent, as you make your heros out to be.

Sorry, but the Nazis were. actually very efficient. Their big problem was the psychopath in charge.

Hm...

I've always thought it was strange that SAM referred to the "Shaaba farms" with the wrong name -- and now I found the confirmation. This retard can't even bother to do her research... any mention of Israel induces violent convulsions and involuntary Turret like quacking of "occubation".

Mt. Dov, which is Hizballah's current beef with Israel, is called "Mazāri‘ Šib‘ā" in Arabic, and "Sha'aba farms" in Hebrew, not what SAM has been referring to as "Aita al Shaab". She must have concluded that "Sha'aba" and "Shaab" sound similar enough so it must be the same place.

"Aita al Shaab" is a different place, located inside Lebanon, and not occupied by anyone, other than Hizballah supporters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms

Heh sleeping through the Lebanon war were you? Check out all the links here.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html