Is there any good evidence relating to when and how dogs became our partners, friends, helpmates, what ever?

Google it. PBS had a special on the topic. You might want to give it a look.

Roughly 12,000 years ago. Late Mesolithic Era. In what is now western China.

It happened only once. All domestic dogs are descended from one wolf pack and their DNA shows the relationship to the wolves that still live in that region. DNA also shows that dogs and wolves are actually a single species. The average mongrel dog is more closely related to a wolf than a human from Borneo is to a human from Iceland.

The only important differences: Dogs have smaller brains, enabling them to subsist on a scavenger's diet instead of a hunters; dogs' teeth are not quite as well suited to ripping flesh as wolves, making it more difficult for them to survive as hunters; dogs recognize humans as members of the same pack.

Selective captive breeding began about 8,000 years ago, when the earliest breeds appeared, including the Pekinese and the mastiff.

Humans began living with dogs before they even learned to get along with other humans. In my opinion, the ability to care for a "person" of a completely different species paved the way for humans to learn to care for people who differed merely in skin color, language, and religion. If it were not for the creation of this unique multi-species community, I wonder whether we would ever have been able to develop civilization.

One researcher made the interesting proposal that dogs domesticated men, rather than the otherway around. i.e. they took the initiative in moving in on our ancestors camp fires and modifying their behaviour to encourage us to change ours. [Motivation as in all such discussions not reflecting a conscious decision, but the result of normal evolutionary pressures.]

Is there any good evidence relating to when and how dogs became our partners, friends, helpmates, what ever?

*************
M*W: I've done a tremendous amount of research on this subject. My findings conclude the following:

1) A dog doesn't get jealous of the men you know. Dogs only get jealous of other people's dogs.

2) A dog won't roll over and smoke a cigarette after sex. In fact, dogs won't even bother you about sex. All they want to do is cuddle.

3) A dog won't lie to you.

4) A dog won't stab you in the back.

5) Dogs don't gossip.

6) Dogs aren't judgmental.

7) Dogs don't criticize you when you gain weight.

8) Dogs won't nag you about spending money, even when it's your own.

9) Dogs will give you a warning bark when they don't like someone. Some friends never do that.

10) Dogs are proud when you go out with them.

11) Dogs think you're their arm candy. Some of the prissier dogs know they're your arm candy.

12) A dog will never ask you for a divorce.

13) A dog will never threaten you with his lawyer.

14) A dog will never ignore you to watch a football game.

15) A dog will never ask you to pick out its clothes.

16) A dog will never ask you to cook his dinner.

17) A dog will never ask you to clean up his mess.

18) A dog will bark to let you know the mailman is coming, so you can hurry up and deposit your check in the bank.

19) A dog will never accuse you of surfing porn on the Internet.

20) A dog will never expect you to pay half the rent, even though you're on his territory.

Yeah, M*W, that's why dogs are so much better to have around the home than women! Thanks for the update, by the way, I only had a few of those traits. :)

Baron Max

Who cares?

How/when did CATS and humans bond?

Yes, cats are cool. Get over it!

Yeah, M*W, that's why dogs are so much better to have around the home than women! Thanks for the update, by the way, I only had a few of those traits. :)

Baron Max


Women are lower than dogs. It's a fact.

I think that the Egyptians domesticated cats about two or three thousand years ago, many thousands of years after dogs & humans bonded.

I think that the Egyptians domesticated cats about two or three thousand years ago, many thousands of years after dogs & humans bonded.

Mmmm! Egyptians obviously knew a good thing when they saw it.

*************
M*W: I've done a tremendous amount of research on this subject. My findings conclude the following:

1) A dog doesn't get jealous of the men you know. Dogs only get jealous of other people's dogs.

2) A dog won't roll over and smoke a cigarette after sex. In fact, dogs won't even bother you about sex. All they want to do is cuddle.

3) A dog won't lie to you.

4) A dog won't stab you in the back.

5) Dogs don't gossip.

6) Dogs aren't judgmental.

7) Dogs don't criticize you when you gain weight.

8) Dogs won't nag you about spending money, even when it's your own.

9) Dogs will give you a warning bark when they don't like someone. Some friends never do that.

10) Dogs are proud when you go out with them.

11) Dogs think you're their arm candy. Some of the prissier dogs know they're your arm candy.

12) A dog will never ask you for a divorce.

13) A dog will never threaten you with his lawyer.

14) A dog will never ignore you to watch a football game.

15) A dog will never ask you to pick out its clothes.

16) A dog will never ask you to cook his dinner.

17) A dog will never ask you to clean up his mess.

18) A dog will bark to let you know the mailman is coming, so you can hurry up and deposit your check in the bank.

19) A dog will never accuse you of surfing porn on the Internet.

20) A dog will never expect you to pay half the rent, even though you're on his territory.



actualy,

dogs do get jealous, they crave attention and i have see dogs/cats alike get jelous over attention seeking matters,

and about dogs and sex, whats witth them humping legs all the time and trying to mate with our limbs,

i could debate alot of the others but dont want to knitpick too much,


peace.

actualy,

dogs do get jealous, they crave attention and i have see dogs/cats alike get jelous over attention seeking matters,


Dogs are, often, some of the worst behaved creatures I've ever witnessed.

At worst, they are the most selfish creatures I've ever seen.

At best, they are quite sweet. Very sweet, mind you!

Cats. They do not follow such a predictable trajectory. Cats are no less excellent than dogs. They both have their own endearing traits.
It's just that cats, for whatever reason, are not the most favored animal. Probably because they won't sit up, beg, and fetch like their canine counterparts. And that is the VERY REASON that I like them.

How/when did CATS and humans bond?6,000 - 5,000B.C.E. is the date range that was generally used up until recently. But recent archeological digs on Cyprus have pushed that back at least 1,500 years and maybe as far as 9,500B.C.E.

All of the first animals that joined our communities did so voluntarily, rather than through "domestication." Or they can be said to be "self-domesticated."

Omnivores like goats and pigs--and to a certain extent even our first pals the dogs--were attracted by our garbage, just as omnivores like bears, hyenas, and macaws still are today. Cats have a somewhat different story.

It was after the invention of agriculture, which defines the twilight of the Mesolithic Era and the dawn of the Neolithic. When our farms became productive enough and our villages became big enough, we developed centralized grain storage. So to be precise, it was actually rodents who volunteered to come live with us first. We just don't normally think of them as domesticated because the partnership is not mutually enjoyable.

The cats followed the rodents. It didn't take our ancestors very many centuries of watching cats killing rodents to figure out that having cats in the village was a really good idea. So they started giving them extra food and encouraging them to come right into their homes in case some of the rodents were sneaking in there too.

Cats are (as far as I know) unique among all the domestic animals, in that they are not naturally social. Dogs, pigs, sheep, horses, cattle, ducks, pigeons, parrots... all of these animals hang out in social groups in the wild. It's only a slight stretch for that social instinct to combine with the natural curiosity of some of the individuals, to cause them to be comfortable in proximity to another social species like humans. Dogs and humans comprise a mixed-species pack. Parrots co-flock with us. Pigs... well heck, is there even a big difference? :)

But cats in the wild are solitary hunters. It was quite a behavioral shift for them to be comfortable even in the company of other cats, much less humans. The mechanism for this is called "neoteny." Something about the way we treat cats--petting them, giving them food, sleeping with them--flips a switch in their genetic memory and makes them revert to kitten behavior, when they were content to play and hang out with their buddies.

There's also a species of wild feline known as the African Jungle Cat (Felis chaus) that is not quite so solitary. The San Diego Zoo has about twenty of them in one enclosure and they get along fine. They look like exotic domestic cats. I don't know if the DNA analysis has been done yet but since the first domestic cats appeared in or near Africa, it's a good bet that these guys figure prominently in their ancestry. That may explain the pesky issue of socialization.

All domestic dogs are descended from one wolf pack and their DNA shows the relationship to the wolves that still live in that region. DNA also shows that dogs and wolves are actually a single species. The average mongrel dog is more closely related to a wolf than a human from Borneo is to a human from Iceland.Therefore dog breeds are social constructs. 'Dog' and 'wolf' are artificial divisions which only serve to divide Canines, when they should be uniting.

Therefore dog breeds are social constructs. 'Dog' and 'wolf' are artificial divisions which only serve to divide Canines, when they should be uniting.

Correct.

Well, hold on there. The devil is in the details.

Dogs and wolves aren't different in very many ways, but those ways are important. The major one being their social instincts. Wolves have the instinct to live in small packs, usually less than a dozen individuals.

Dogs are much more social. Not only are they comfortable in enormously larger packs, but they're comfortable with mixed-species packs. Dogs are perfectly happy for their packs to include humans, cats, parrots, monkeys, horses, and whatever other kinds of animals we provide for their companionship. Dogs are curious and tolerant.

Dogs have also evolved nutritional needs that can be satisfied by a less than fully carnivorous diet. Most canines can get protein out of nuts and energy out of berries, but dogs will happily eat starch because their smaller brains don't require as much protein as a wolf diet. In conjunction with this change in diet dogs have also lost much of their instinct to hunt. It's there but it doesn't dominate them. That's why it's so easy for them to regard parrots and rabbits as playmates, they're no longer programmed to see other creatures as nothing but food.

Wolves, on the other hand, don't even get along with dogs, members of their own species. What both humans and dogs perceive as almost trivial differences between dogs and wolves are perceived by the wolves as an almost unbridgeable gulf. Two wolf packs that encounter each other may give each other wide berth and a modicum of respect. A wolf pack that encounters a group of dogs is more likely to attack and eat them. If the dogs are large and robust, if the wolves are accustomed to living on the fringe of civilization and have gotten familiar with their cousins, if they've got bellies full of cats and raccoons, and especially if there is a female dog in heat, they might cut the dogs some slack and mate with the female. But those are a lot of if's that have to line up just right.

"Dog" and "wolf" is not an artificial division. Zoologists call them distinct subspecies, Canis lupus familiaris and C. lupus lupus. It's not even "artificial" in the basic sense of the word meaning "created by man." Remember that dogs voluntarily joined our communities thousands of years before we had the most rudimentary skills at animal husbandry. We couldn't have "tamed a wild animal" if we'd wanted to. The individuals who wanted to investigate the possibility of becoming dogs and the individuals who wanted to remain wolves selected themselves, it wasn't our doing.

Dogs have evolved next to humans for a while, which is probably why their thinking seems more reasonable to humans than that of other animals. Which is why dogs are called smart. Just a random thought...

Dogs have evolved next to humans for a while, which is probably why their thinking seems more reasonable to humans than that of other animals. Which is why dogs are called smart. Just a random thought...

True. Dogs depend on us. Wolves must depend soley on themselves. They are more independent because they have to be.. Actually wolves are smarter, they distrust humans. Where one has to depend, it usually puts one in a precarious and vulnerable position. There are humans that mistreat dogs/animals and those who don't. Dogs are beggars, wolves are not. But then again, this is a situation of pros versus cons. By aligning with the more powerful, you can usually get some form of protection and benefit. Its servitude. Have you noticed dogs look at humans as if they are gods? Humans don't really deserve this. Its this total and sincere devotion but blind and misplaced belief in us that endears us and touches on our and all lifeforms desire to become one with the creator/life/love etc. This should motivate us to live up to what is the best in us and not betray their trust. Because we have let them become dependent on us, we have an obligation to them in return. Wolves are smarter because the trust dogs or any lifeform given to another can be betrayed. Dogs are right in the existential sense, wrong in reality.

Wolves are "smarter" than dogs for a very simple reason: They have larger brains. Wolves eat a higher-protein diet so they can support more brain cells. Dog brains have slowly shrunk over the millennia during which they lived with us because they stopped eating the carnivorous diet of a hunter and started eating a scavenger's diet. One of the things that attracted them to our camps had to be the endless supply of garbage. The same thing that attracted pigs and goats. Urban coyotes are doing the same thing. They eat dogs and cats but they also spend a lot of time pulling tasty stuff out of trash cans so they will probably evolve smaller brains than their cousins who hunt deer and cattle.

Over the past several decades, people in Western civilization have been feeding their dogs much higher-protein diets. We don't let our dogs touch garbage any more, we buy them food that is scientifically formulated. The day will come when dogs are smarter than coyotes. :)

As for the emerging dialog about intelligence and trust... It's not that simple. Dogs, the descendants of the wolves who wanted to come live with us, would surely agree that their life is better than the descendants of the wolves who kept to themselves and maintained the hunting lifestyle. They get safety, medical care, toys, love, games, interesting companions of dozens of species, travel to exotic locations like the next county with all of its amazing new smells, not to mention sheer physical comfort and freedom from worrying about how to find their next meal.

Dogs have become participants in civilization. They place their trust in a highly complex system they don't understand and all the other creatures of various species who live here with them, and as a reward they live 12-18 years of a life that is so nice that they're always wagging their tails.

Their life is a lot like ours. We don't really understand how this works either, but we have faith in it. And very few people opt out and go off to live by their wits and hunting skill in the wilderness.

If I had to choose between being a dog and being a wolf, it wouldn't take two seconds to make the choice. And I'm pretty damn smart.

A climate-controlled home, scrumptious food that appears like clockwork, a soft bed, people who love me, and all I have to do is keep them company and keep my ears open for intruders who never actually show up. Or living out in the cold, having to chase down prey that sometimes fight back and kill us, wondering when I'll get another meal, having to fight other wolves when the hunting gets lean and our territories overlap, never having my intellect or emotions stimulated by the companionship of friendly strangers or weird species, never having a toy, no medicine or surgery.

Wolves are the canine equivalent of the Hell's Angels. Not a gig with a long waiting list.

Wolves are "smarter" than dogs for a very simple reason: They have larger brains. Wolves eat a higher-protein diet so they can support more brain cells. Dog brains have slowly shrunk over the millennia during which they lived with us because they stopped eating the carnivorous diet of a hunter and started eating a scavenger's diet. One of the things that attracted them to our camps had to be the endless supply of garbage. The same thing that attracted pigs and goats. Urban coyotes are doing the same thing. They eat dogs and cats but they also spend a lot of time pulling tasty stuff out of trash cans so they will probably evolve smaller brains than their cousins who hunt deer and cattle.

Yes, your delineation is correct. However, my point was wolves have an autonomy that dogs do not. This, in my opinion, is the bottomline. Dogs do not "need" a higher-protein diet to support more brain cells. We do not require their intelligence perse. We require them to meet our needs. We breed them for specific purposes. In reality, most dogs don't need much brain cells as they are so dependent and provided for. This is the payoff to some degree. Its also their social conditioning. We would never let a dog challenge us, it would be reprimanded or put down or the breed would die out. We would never allow a 'dog' to become as intelligent as ourselves. They are in our control. Wolves are not directly in our control. They can evolve without our fettering so to speak. This I'm speaking of in generalities because we can and do take their habitat and pollute it as well etc.



Over the past several decades, people in Western civilization have been feeding their dogs much higher-protein diets. We don't let our dogs touch garbage any more, we buy them food that is scientifically formulated. The day will come when dogs are smarter than coyotes.

Yes and no, in my opinion. I think diet is only part of the equation regarding intelligence but also the mental challenges. Wolves, for example, have more challenges. This to some extent increases their intelligence for survival.

well i never established a bond between dogs...Ive got dog bite marks on my skin, so if thats a bond....

Wolves, for example, have more challenges. This to some extent increases their intelligence for survival.You seem to be an old-guard 19th-century Naturalist. "Call of the Wild" and all that stuff.

Wolves have two things in their lives. Hunting prey and raising cubs. That's it. Okay, as humans encroach on their territory and get mad at them for regarding livestock as prey they have to watch out for us, their only predator. But that's still basic survival. Wolves spend their entire lives and never get above Step Two of Maslow's Hierarchy. Maybe that's a life full of "challenges" but it's a life in one endless deep rut and it looks pretty pathetic to me.

I know it would look pretty pathetic to many dogs. A life that's all about survival isn't much of a life. The games we teach dogs are fascinating to them. For a dog to become adept at catching frisbees is like a human being a good tennis player. For a dog to learn these obstacle courses that you see on Animal Planet is like a human becoming a pro football player.

Dogs have jobs. For most of them it's simply to be our nannies, to take care of our emotional health, to help us weather hard times, to keep us on an even keel. It's surely a sense of fulfillment to be able to do something that many humans aren't very good at.

Many dogs are security professionals. They're charged with keeping our homes and families safe from prowlers. My Anatolian Guardian has the job of running off predators. We don't have your bloody wolves but we have bears and cougars and she does a fine job of it and she's proud of herself.

Some dogs assist the disabled and that's quite a sense of accomplishment. Others help the police. Some rescue people from avalanches and earthquakes. Some get to join the circus, a dream that few humans get to realize.

Sure, they're part of the human-dog society and sure they're taking orders from humans. But most of us never get to be in charge either so we're hardly any better off from that standpoint.

I take orders during the daytime but I also get to play interesting games and learn to interact with lots of people and other creatures from all over the world. I get challenged and I find fulfillment. My dogs do the same.

I'd rather be here doing this than out in the wilderness somewhere with every day a struggle for survival, no matter how good I got at it. I'm positive my dogs feel the same way about it, even though they would loyally follow me out into that wilderness and make the most of it if that were my choice.

There's more to life than mastering the challenge of mere survival, no matter how noble writers like Jack London make it out to be.

How did the fierce wolf become a playful puppy? And why are there so many varieties? We feed them, breed them, pet them and dress them, but how well do we really know them? John Lithgow narrates this insightful look at how dogs evolved from fierce wolves to playful pets—and why there are so many types of dogs today. Whether you’re a dog person or not, there’s no denying dogs are an evolutionary marvel, and thanks to human intervention, they are one of the most diverse species on earth. With an amazing array of sizes, shapes, colors, temperaments and other quirks, canis familiaris features one of the most tinkered-with gene pools in the animal kingdom.

NOVA goes beyond the wagging tails and floppy ears to reveal surprising insights into the origin and evolutionary strategy of our canine companions. From a wolf research facility in rural Indiana to New York’s Westminster Dog Show, you’ll discover some amazing dog facts. Did you know the Saluki can beat any other mammal on earth in a three-mile race? That dogs developed spots for a specific reason? And that their evolution is helping us learn about our own?

You can download it here: http://www.mvgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=8033

I love dogs because they look so stupid

I love dogs because they look so stupid
right. except they dont just look stupid, they are stupid. ( A victim of numerous dog frights and dog bites)

hm, well, the argument above was about which is better, welfare or intelligence and control. Dogs have the first, wolves the other.

The main thing I was trying to say, earlier, was that dogs have preferences, feelings, emotions and those things more like humans, and that's a result of our history together. A wolf wouldn't love and serve a human like a dog would, even if it was brought up by one. It just doesn't want to. This means we and dogs have a similiar mindset, apart from other other animals...

well i never established a bond between dogs...Ive got dog bite marks on my skin, so if thats a bond....

Not to be too harsh, but dogs are overrated.

I think it's high time box turtles got their minute of fame.

I meant to respond to this earlier, but I forgot about it! :p


Cats are (as far as I know) unique among all the domestic animals, in that they are not naturally social.

Actually, I believe they can be. It depends on which ones you're talking about. Lions are probably the most gregarious of the wild felines. Most of the larger cats are solitary.

I believe the smaller wild cats will live in social communities, perhaps depending on the situation. There was a story of a man who lived on an island that had many feral cats. I assume since they had proliferated so much, they were accustomed to having so many others around.


But cats in the wild are solitary hunters. It was quite a behavioral shift for them to be comfortable even in the company of other cats, much less humans. The mechanism for this is called "neoteny." Something about the way we treat cats--petting them, giving them food, sleeping with them--flips a switch in their genetic memory and makes them revert to kitten behavior, when they were content to play and hang out with their buddies.

I think that it's rubbed off on me.


There's also a species of wild feline known as the African Jungle Cat (Felis chaus) that is not quite so solitary. The San Diego Zoo has about twenty of them in one enclosure and they get along fine. They look like exotic domestic cats. I don't know if the DNA analysis has been done yet but since the first domestic cats appeared in or near Africa, it's a good bet that these guys figure prominently in their ancestry. That may explain the pesky issue of socialization.

I saw a nature show once that was following a wild desert cat and a fennec fox around. If I remember correctly, the desert cat was solitary, but I swear they showed him visiting a Bedouin encampment.
The fennec was very cute, as well. Giant ears but almost smaller than the cat.