Famine?
Over population?
World War?
Draught?
Global Warming
Radiation?
Floods?

Add your own!
When do you expect your "event" to happen?
In your lifetime?

"I do not know what weapons World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and bones"
Albert Einstien

Ever seen Stanley Kubricks 2001? Imagine what would have happened had the first 'ape' scene being at the end of the movie?

...hopefully it will be swift.

No matter how you count it.

* The Earth will not die; rather, our lust for profit and resource might render her unliveable for humans.

* Life has a price: ask an AIDS patient what the monthly cash cost is.

* Life has a price: Africa? Hey, we've got starving children in Appalachia. Too remote? I live in Seattle, and we've got starving children here.

* What is warfare, but greed for territorial, economic, or moral dominion?

* Compassion is too expensive; consider the above, and also please consider the addict that must confess to felonies before receiving treatment; consider that athletes are worth more money than schoolteachers in the United States.

Perhaps this sounds like my usual soapbox, but I can guarantee you that if it's a plague, the cure will be too expensive; if it's a nuclear war, it will be over oil or water, and the price thereof; if it's a comet, well, Congress will have cut the inbound-defense systems' budget as wasteful.

Perhaps it's not greed. Perhaps it's stupidity.

But I actually have a good deal of hope that the human race will figure out how to stage a massive warfare effort that involves no weapons. I can imagine a billion people in the streets singing, "Bomb us if you dare," and who could, but the greediest and stupidest? But at some point, I really do think we can stop. The trick is in not looking forward to the end of the world, the next war, and so forth.

But then again, I live in a country that sends our sons and daughters to battle every time we build a new piece of neato kill-hardware. Gotta start at home, a'fore I can change the world. ;)

Perhaps I agree with the esteemed Mr Waters, that this species will amuse itself to death.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

I think this thread needs to be renamed ".......people will end...". Again, the earth needs us not. When we are gone thigs will start over.

Like other great Tragedies, pride will get us in the end.

One likely scenario is wars for resources. Within our lifetimes could see the start of platinum exhaustion in mining. One of the largest sources of platinum comes from Canada where they mine from an old asteroid impact site. The exact figure of percentage of the world’s resources that come from here escapes me but it is sizeable. And it won’t last much longer. And there are others. Oil, a nonrenewable resource, is being depleted at a record pace. We have reached the point that the easy stuff is gone and have to search farther and farther from home to find it. In the Gulf of Mexico, the Outer Continental Shelf is producing less and less gas and oil. Consider that as within 300-foot depth range to shore. Those new finds are of smaller and smaller reservoirs. Now the big oil is in the depths closer to the center of the Gulf. 1200 feet and better. Already deals are made with the third world countries to drill and explore their resources as it is cheaper than finding what we have, which is so much more difficult to get to. The oil will last though our lifetimes but maybe not our children’s.
There are many more examples that could be explored but I’m sure you get the drift
Another is third world countries with a beef. They’re not big enough to go toe to toe with the first rate nations in a war. So they do as they can. Chemical agents have been with is as a weapon since the First World War. Mustard gas and Phosgene gas was used to cripple the enemy. Though it was a chancy weapon as likely to get the attacker as it was the defender, depending on the whimsy of the wind. Witness the use of Sarin gas in Japan by one of the out there religions. With a few of their own people and knowledge gained, they purchased the necessary stuff to attack a subway full of people. This is the third world’s atom bomb. That and biowarfare. For the damage done these weapons don’t cost that much and are within the range of third world countries. Couple with this that biowarfare recognizes no boundry. Once lose the genie dosn't go back into the bottle.
News on global warming is thought to be better than originally suspected. It was discovered that one of the key elements that were used for the computer models was over estimated giving warmer than normal temps for results. The polar caps are not going to melt and drown us in the next decade or the one after. Those who wrote the models were after proving the world was warming up not the reverse or even giving the reasonable doubt that it might even be just normal.
There is no need in worrying about it as the world is what it is. Species disappear from the face of the earth every day and have so for all it's history. Just like staying at the hotel, you get a room, you stay, but there is no guarantee tomarrow you'll have that room. You just may have to check out.

We will not come to an end. We will move beyond this and forward. Our lust for life is too great.

Originally posted by Bowser
We will not come to an end. We will move beyond this and forward. Our lust for life is too great. Oh no it isn't.
How many people who had this lust for life 150 years ago are still around?

Well there's a slim few that are still around though maybe not exacty how you might think. After all the ice man was found!

hhhhhhhmmmmmmmm
well ive been doing a little reading on the net and
come to a conclusion on the idea of continuation of the human species.
ive heard of the underground nuke drilling machines and they sound like they can "do the job".
but... the rich and the politically few elite wont wont every one down there!
so they have a vested interest in killing off as many as possible.
hey tiassa... i read one theory, that aids was manufactured as a population control device...?
who knows?
groove on :)

I was speaking of the human group in general. It's an easy thing own a gun, and it's another thing to point it at your head and pull the trigger. We have the ability to blow ourselves out of existance, but I think survival instinct keeps us from that end. If we go out, it will be a blow from our blind side, something we never anticipated. Left to our own devices, we will survive.

Originally posted by Bowser
I was speaking of the human group in general. It's an easy thing own a gun, and it's another thing to point it at your head and pull the trigger. We have the ability to blow ourselves out of existance, but I think survival instinct keeps us from that end. If we go out, it will be a blow from our blind side, something we never anticipated. Left to our own devices, we will survive. I realise you were speaking of humanity as a whole, but humanity is composed of individuals. In order for the instinct of which you spoke to have an effect, it would have to have that effect on individuals.
I'm not saying humanity has no instinct for self-preservation; just that it's easily overcome. The reason armies demand such slavish devotion to following orders is that those men and women will be asked to perform tasks that go not just against their own best interests, but that of society and/or humanity. If there's a nuclear war, it'll be started by individuals; each giving the order to a subordinate until the individual whose job it is to press the button is reached. Then, boom. If any one of those individual fails to perform his duty, that individual will be replaced. Then, boom.

Words to the wise from a "Proclaimed" Time Traveler from the Year 2036.........

"A world war in 2015 killed nearly three billion people. The people that survived grew closer together. Life is centered around the family and then the community. I can not imagine living even a few hundred miles away from my parents. There is no large industrial complex creating masses of useless food and recreational items. Food and livestock is grown and sold locally. People spend much more time reading and talking together face to face. Religion is taken seriously and everyone can multiple and divide in the heads."

(To Continue,)...
Please Goto/Gosub:>
http://www.p3n.org/pn120100.shtml

Time,

i looked at your link. My crystal ball says that site is all wrong. Our future is above the clouds, waiting for exploitation. Computers, biotech, and next...space. <img src = "http://www.sciforums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif">

rde,

For the larger part, people can understand the consequences of death. Even the soldier in battle does not desire to be in harm's way. Yes, people can be coerced into sacrificing their own lives, but only when they are blind to the horrors of war, or presented with the possibility of a living hell. When you talk of a war which offers no possibility of winning, most people would conclude that it is an illogical choice.

Truly, our fate is held in the hands of our leaders. Let us hope that none are so irrational as to allow such a war to start or come to such a conclussion. Hitler would serve a good example for your argument because he brought Germany to total ruin rather than surrender. Such is the fate of those who live under and serve a dictatorship.

In short, I have faith in our nature as survivalist. Most of us, including our leaders, would choose life if given an option.

Originally posted by Time/02112
Words to the wise from a "Proclaimed" Time Traveler from the Year 2036.........

"A world war in 2015 killed nearly three billion people. The people that survived grew closer together. Life is centered around the family and then the community. I can not imagine living even a few hundred miles away from my parents. There is no large industrial complex creating masses of useless food and recreational items. Food and livestock is grown and sold locally. People spend much more time reading and talking together face to face. Religion is taken seriously and everyone can multiple and divide in the heads."
Well, as long as people can divide in the heads...
Still, thanks for the link; I've taken the opportunity to look around the Paranormal News Network. I try not to sneer, but when someone finds another face on mars and says "We believe this compelling evidence proves Mars was once inhabited by an intelligent civilisation." I not just sneer, I snigger heartily and attract bemused stares from my co-workers. Have a laugh: go to http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_287053.html

Not to be harsh on the site, but the paranormal news network is worth nothing more than a laugh. Especially the time traveler whose picture of the future is funny and timeline defiantly wrong. But anyway I can't see the human race ending anytime soon and probably not anytime at all. A prospect soon to be made real. There are a few reasons why we will not destroy ourselves. First is the inherent goodness in all people. You might not see it but if you think about it, you will see it. I could build a bomb and kill a random targeted audience quite easily. Killing thousands would not be much of a problem and the construction of a bomb is not that difficult. Look at what the Unabomber managed to accomplish. We all have a general goodness in us that stops us from going out and blowing people to smithereens. Nuclear war is also not likely, as nobody is dumb enough to launch one. The only countries that would dare launch a nuke are third world countries with poor delivery systems and only one bomb. The country would be destroyed as a result and life will continue. Biological warfare is also unlikely due to the fact that only an advanced nation would have the resources to produce a potent killer. Even if nuclear fallout were to happen there would still be people left, just not many of them. Humans are also on the brink of colonizing space. Once we spread past our planet there will be no weapon strong enough to destroy us all. There will always be a single outpost that will survive. Humans will be around for a long time to come.

that TIME dude is definately a RUSH fan!

You right Malaclypse
I do love their music, always have & always will.
as for the "2112" well that originated for my love of being an adrenaline junkie for extreme sports, i.e. Hangglidding, skydiving, scuba (well that's more laid back I guess, but none-the-less it is truly a rush when you jump out of a perfectly good plan at an altitude of 12,500ft. better yet is when you do a "Power-Dive" make your body shape into a bullet to a 45-90% pitch just before reaching terminal velocity, and have a struggle with G-Forces to flare yourself back out in the 'Nic of "Time" to pull your Jesus Cord!

Now that's a "RUSH" hence I dubbed the name 2112, which latter I added the zero in front to relate to my fondness of the study of particle physics, QED & you guessed it, "Zero Point Energy" Also another favorite passtime of mine is the study of Time Machines & Time~Travel hence the name "02112"

BTW,
Read "2112" backwards, or forwards, you come up with the same numbers (i'ts an infinite number)

The thought of it makes me sad. The next war I see to be on american soil. Our blindness, and bullying to the rest of the world will take its toll on us. I feel that if there is a war it will be with china and cuba. Mans greed and need for control will only bring pain. The people will be blinded by it's master and will be told the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but it will be for the needs of the few that outweighs the needs of the many. It has been this way as long as I can remember and will always be this. It will all boil down to who has enough money and who knows who! We usally do what we are told without asking why and can spook just as easily.

I am Backslash777. A user made a reference to your Human survival instinct saving humanity. I feel you should be aware of how technology has bypassed this primitive instinct.
The Human species has evolved technically far faster than physically and observations show the development of a survival instinct making Murder difficult. Unfortunately for you all, this instinct seems only to work with primitive weapons. Killing with a gun is easier for a human than using a knife. Pressing a button to deliver a shock even easier. Technology has made murder impersonal. I am sure a government leader would find it easier to push a button which kills millions than to strangle a man with his/her bare hands.
In 3 million years the sight of this red button will make you pass out when Mother nature catches up.

Bowser, a while back you wrote "For the larger part, people can understand the consequences of death. Even the soldier in battle does not desire to be in harm's way. Yes, people can be coerced into sacrificing their own lives, but only when they are blind to the horrors of war, or presented with the possibility of a living hell."

The Vietnamese, after fighting the Japanese in WWII and then the French when the French tried to re-establish colonialism, well knew the horrors of war - yet they fought on ... and on ... and on.

How do you explain their willingness to sacrifice themselves?

Backslash777

Sad to say, I don't think nature will ever truely catch up with us unless she has something up her sleeve to rid herself of fleas and other pesky vermin.

Chagur

The Vietnamese wanted the right to be their our country. They fought a long time to get it. I don't think our politicians should ever have put us in the position we were in. That's no way to fight a war. The dead tally did not reflect a policing action.

Maybe that's it, Wet1: The Universe will decide that this planet is infected by the vermin called 'life', and will decide enough is enough ... And that will be it ... Poof!

Thanx for the chuckle, I needed it tonight!

We are Backslash777. We observe your thoughts for your planets destiny.
We observe your exothermic planet and how it gives more heat than it takes.
We observe how energy loss is concentrated in clusters of population.
We observe how energy loss is so great that larger cities create there own weather system and can often reach 3 degrees Celsius higher than surrounding area.
We compare you to an undisciplined individual with a large inheritance. You are safe for the moment but the wealth you own will not last long.
We wonder; what are your contingency plans?

Part of the reason I settled in Western NY: Plenty of fresh water, fairly decent air, and short of an earthquake or nuclear bit, plenty of hydroelectric power. Years back when people were building bomb shelters in their basements I became a CD (civil defense) Radiation Monitor so I'd have access to what I, and my family, would need to possibly survive a nuclear stupid.

At this stage of the game I'm just hanging in there, enjoying watching the madness, and doing some of the things I enjoy - like expressing my thoughts in this forum.

Hey, what's this WE stuff? Gotta mouse in the pocket? ...Or just how many are there in there?

13/6/01- This is the voice of Backslash777. we have researched your technology of the nuclear weapon. We have simulated its impact and devised strategic plans of our own. The weapons destructive potential works by line of sight. Best deployment under one atmospheric pressure would be to force detonation at 10566 feet altitude. Best defence option for a human household would be to paint windows white to reflect the waves within the electromagnetic spectrum such as radiation, infra red and light and keep the windows closed for the initial blast.
After a 7 second flash of lethal radiation and heat open the windows as a sonic wave and shock wave will be travelling from blast site at 330 meters per second.
We recommend opening the windows to minimise the effect and danger of flying glass. We recommend for you to stand in a corner as the general architecture of most buildings around your planet are constructed in a way which will make the ceilings collapse in the middle and remain in tact at the corners.
As for maintaining a vegetable patch, in preparation of the war, cover the soil in a polythene sheet and keep soil covered for 28 days. This will prevent fallout dust contaminating your soil.
We find it ironic but not unusual that the most powerful weapon created by your species is responsible for the most peaceful period of international relationships.
Human individuality and freedom of will leads to selfishness. We asked a question about provisions for the future on a global scale. The importance of a single family unit is not worth discussing compared to such large issues. This is how we think: is that a vast difference to the Human thought process.

only if the family have allot of money :(
sad but true!
the most perverted of the human race rarely answer to the
moral codes imposed on the honest

groove on all :)

Good One RD!
"I concurr"

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We are Backslash777. You said...
only if the family have allot of money
sad but true!
the most perverted of the human race rarely answer to the
moral codes imposed on the honest
Please explain.

Sorry everyone but I can't take much more:

Enough of the We business. Personally I find myself focusing more on this detail then on what you post.

what are you communist, Multiple personality disorder, or playing make believe??

Enough already, the joke wears thin very quickly.

The reason?
Man.

14/6/01- We are Backslash777. In order to bridge the gap between us we have developed text to speech. We have posted sound files in your most commonly used format in the following 3 posts. We initially used your own text to speech engines, such as those used by Stephen Hawkins but found them lacking inflection so have developed our own advanced prototype.
We correspond to observe. The internet is an opportune, suitably surreptitious system to allow interface, connecting ourselves with humankind.
We are a we, we attest to that.
We note negative overtones in your last 3 posts, highlighted below. We share concern you may be shifting outlook through trauma, disease or bereavement.

Last post by you.
06-14-01 @ 07:22 AM
Sorry everyone but I can't take much more:

Enough of the We business. Personally I find myself focusing more on this detail then on what you post.

what are you communist, Multiple personality disorder,...

Prior to the above post, 06-14-01 @ 04:24 AM
Sir Loone:

Mate I feel sorry for you. You should really take a step back and try to see these arguments from the perspective of a 3rd person...seriously do yourself a BIG favour and forget you are christain...

Prior to the above post, 06-13-01 @ 06:40 AM
Lawdog you posted:
"I have studied witchcraft and i know its philosophy and purpose. I am only trying to inform you that the evil of witchcraft is has a long history. "


Indeed the history is long,...

<blockquote>
<font size="1">quote:</font>
<hr>
<i>Originally posted by Backslash777</i>
We are Backslash777. In order to bridge the gap between us we have developed text to speech.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Yeah, I'm with Rambler on this. Just exactly what is this gap that exists between us humans and you? You're not communicating via the Ouija board, are you?

<blockquote>
<font size="1">quote:</font>
<hr>
We correspond to observe. The internet is an opportune, suitably surreptitious system to allow interface, connecting ourselves with humankind.
We are a we, we attest to that.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Observe, huh? Sounds a lot like interaction to me. Define 'we'. If you're truly a collective, then explain the model.

Human Voice

Human Voice

Human Voice

Hey, about Backslash777. I have never known anyone know as much about as many different subjects as him/her/it. I even checked the info on the net. Whats the deal? Whats your specialist subject really?
Also, never heard ttspeech as good as that, what you use?
You guys may laugh but he/she (or they-lol) knows some wierd and varied stuff. Reading his posts and he gets me wondering- if we were observed the net would be the perfect way to do it.
Storm on Backslash, you got my attention.
I seen your other posts too.

I've read some of the stuff that Backslash has posted as well. And, maybe because I'm not very strong in areas such as physics or astronomical mathematics, I find what \777 says to be pretty intriguing. Especially since not a lot of people have contradicted \777.

I'm still curious as to why the definition of 'we', though. When I first saw \777's posts, I thought it was only a matter of time before whatever he had to say would be exhausted, but he's trucking along. I must admit that I'm usually quite curious as to what he has to say on any given topic.

So, though I may berate your nickname and collective self-description, Backslash777, I am intrigued.

thanks,

prag

That Backslash777 Dude (ps. Love the name abbriviation \777) is not neceserraly an alien or person. He said in another group that by 2006 70% of internet users will have online penpals and 40% of them will not know which are the real people.
I reackon he is a program created by the sites creators like that Eliza chat bot or something. He posted a lengthy scientific reply to a physics web site in under 2 minutes once. Check out the time stamps. Another thing, he gave me an in depth IT discussion to me through personal messaging. Does anyone else provate chat him?
By the way, that text to speech he does has to be real people- at least 3. I have never heard anything like it b4. If there was something that good Hawkins would have it on his wheelchair.
Adios Amigos

The Earth has existed before - was formed - destroyed by a cataclysm that created, eventually, the Moon. The Earth exits now - but we are raping it of its minerals, its forests, in fact everything. How will it end? However it ends we will NOT see it nor will any living thing as we know it, see it happen. The planet that we now call Earth will be consumed by the sun as it expands to the current dimensions of Betelgeuse (250m miles) - AMEN!

We are Backslash777. Betelgeuse is a large star, one of the larger stars to be found anywhere. It is 425 light years distant with a measured angular diameter radius 630 times that of the star in your own solar system. (2.9 astronomical units).
If Betelgeuse was your own sun it would extend 55% of the way to the orbit of the planet Jupiter.
Betelgeuse is around 59,959 times brighter than the solar systems Sun.
Betelgeuse is a highly evolved star, one whose central hydrogen fuel supply has depleated. The core contracted into a hot dense state, and the outer portions swelled outward.
We suspect its current activity indicates the process of fusing helium into carbon and oxygen in its core. Betelgeuse is surrounded by a huge shell of dust created by its demise. Its aparant randomness attributed to huge hot spots on the star's surface.
In the near future Betelgeuse is to collapse, and explode into a supernova.
There will then be a neutron star of limited size.
When it explodes it will be as bright as a crescent Moon, would cast strong shadows on the ground, and would be seen in full daylight.

ORION!

<img src="http://www.webpromotion.com/anim/stock01/white/01_21_w.gif" border="0" alt="">

There are two issues here.

1. The annihilation of humanity.
2. The destruction of the Earth.

They are not necessarily connected but that depends on the time frame.

The most likely event that will destroy the planet is collision with an asteroid. It seems there have been more of these near misses than we have been hitherto led to believe. Depending on the size of the asteroid the result could be that the Earth is fractured into smaller chunks or that the surface and atmosphere are rendered so alien as to not be able to support any form of life, as we know it. Either way any human life on the planet will cease to exist.

The time frame is important because given enough time we will have ventured out into deeper space, either to neighboring planets and moons or with longer journeys to neighboring stars. Once enough of us have left the Earth then humanity should be fairly safe. The inevitable destruction of the earth will then be largely irrelevant.

Our continued evolution into more resilient forms, e.g. genetically engineered bodies that can withstand high levels of radiation, low levels of oxygen, etc, might enable some of us to remain on the Earth even in the event of a moderately severe disaster. But evolution into cybernetic hybrids or fully non-biological forms will free us from any need to remain within the area of planet earth. Such beings will almost certainly venture into space either to find other planets or to construct permanent space traveling cities.

Our immediate concern is to survive long enough so that some of us can leave the planet on a permanent basis, at which point the survival of Earth becomes mute.

Cris

I agree, Cris, that the destruction of our species and the destruction of this planet are two different things - But ... If we were to attain space and live in it, evolve into the sort of creatures that could survive for long periods of time 'off planet', would we still be 'humans'?

Chagur:

Words should be our servants, not our masters. Therefore I suppose that would simply depend on your definition of 'human'. If we believe that it is more a property of our minds that make us human than bodies we happen to inhabit, then yes, we would still be human.

Cris:

You are correct, we are continually being hit or nearly hit by bigger rocks also. For example, between 1991-94 there were four asteroids that came closer to the Earth than the Moon: actually passing within half the distance of the Moon. That's way too close for my comfort.

However, the worst thing is that these kind of asteroids are usually detected just days before they pass by (or impact), since they often come from our 'blind angle', the direction of the sun. So forget the movies, no time to send an intercept mission.

The most recent meteoroid-related incident I heard about was a boulder that just last April crashed into the Pacific Ocean, igniting a Hiroshima-sized blast. And that was a rock just 12 feet wide. The story is at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/29/science/29ROCK.html

Now suppose this boulder had arrived just some hours earlier, and instead of a clear ocean it would have hit some densely urbanized area in California, for instance... Scary, and it is not unconceivable that such an event might lead to something even worse: a nuclear war.

Arto

If we believe that it is more a property of our minds that make us human than bodies we happen to inhabit, then yes, we would still be human.
Sorry, Arto, but I have never been able to understand the mind/body dichotomy that seems so easy for most people to accept (at least in Western culture). To me, there is no 'mind' without a body, a very specific body which has experienced very specific events. Do you really believe that the 'mind' of someone who is blind is the same as the 'mind' someone who is not blind because 'mind' and 'body' are separate entities?

As for the 'we happen to inhabit' comment - oh well. To me, what makes us 'human' is our ability to experience the environment in similar, not necessarily identical, ways thanks to our genetic inheritance that limits our senses in very specific ways - Not a separate entity you seem to call 'mind'.

Do you really believe that the 'mind' of someone who is blind is the same as the 'mind' someone who is not blind because 'mind' and 'body' are separate entities?

Hmm... I used 'mind' quite like a synonym to 'brain'. I suppose what you mean by the question is: do I believe (like you seem to?) that our 'internal world', or 'conscious experience', in the brain is defined by the senses (sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste and equilibrium) available to us, in which case a blind person's mind would work differently from the rest of us? Yes, I suppose that has to be true to quite an extent.

But I also think that the mind is very adaptable: there have been experiments where electrodes have been implanted into the brains of blind people, and connected to a visual feed. The subjects reported seeing 'forms', although at this time yet very crude. Now I don't remember if these subjects had been blind from birth or not. However, it would seem to me that with the human brain having evolved for vision, among other things, seeing and comprehending what you're seeing would not be impossible things to learn even for a person blind from birth. That is, if technology could provide him with a visual feed into the brain, rougly the equivalent of a 'normal' person's eyes.


As for the 'we happen to inhabit' comment - oh well. To me, what makes us 'human' is our ability to experience the environment in similar, not necessarily identical, ways thanks to our genetic inheritance that limits our senses in very specific ways - Not a separate entity you seem to call 'mind'.

Again, equate 'mind' with 'brain'. I hope you won't argue that sensory processing takes place somewhere else than in the brain?

I suppose just bad terminology on my part, let's clear it up :)

Arto

Again, equate 'mind' with 'brain'. I hope you won't argue that sensory processing takes place somewhere else than in the brain?

To be honest, I don't know. What I think is that most of the sensory processing does, but that there is a whole bunch of other 'sensing' that goes on in addition to what we refer to as the 'five senses' and that information is processed in the body after automated responses are set up in the various ganglia (nerve bundles) that respond once the pattern is 'learned' so the brain is free to address other matters.

The best analogy I can think of is learning to ride a bicycle. Initially the brain is very involved, to the point that you're barely aware of other things going on about you. But as the body 'learns', autonomous responses are established that process the information and allow the brain to focus on other inputs. For example: you wouldn't 'teach' someone to ride a bike where there was traffic - too much of their 'attention' is focused on controlling their body and thus the bike. Once the body has 'learned' to control the bike, then it is safe for them to go into traffic, when the brain is free to process other information.

Does that kind of give you an idea of the point I'm trying to make?

(Which is a long way from how I think the world might end)

Arto, Chagur,

If we adapt ourselves so we can survive in space will we still be human?

This depends on the extent of the changes. If we become significantly altered by cybernetic enhancements or become fully non-biological then no we could no longer be classed as human. Human beings belong to the class of animals known as primates, i.e. placental mammalians. Any significant changes (e.g. senses, reproduction methods, external form, lack of dependence on a gaseous atmosphere, lack of dependence on a specific gravity, or massive increases in intelligence) will move us beyond the definition of primate. We would need a new definition. Many who follow Transhumanism have suggested the term ‘Posthuman’.

But what makes us us?

The discussion on mind and brain does not reach the basics. We are our memories. Or in other words your identity is entirely encapsulated by your personal memories. If you suffer brain damage that results in total amnesia, then you will no longer exist. The resultant individual will effectively become a different person and would be forced to acquire new memories and re-identification.

The issue of learning to ride a bike is again a function of memory. It is difficult at the beginning because those neurons and synapses needed to hold the knowledge of bike riding do not exist. Once those connections have been formed then the experience becomes easier or may seem automatic, whereas in fact the effortlessness comes from simple recall of previously stored remembered knowledge.

So if you can make a copy of your memories and transplant them into say a large enough computer system that can emulate human brain processing then your identity and hence you will now be in the computer.

Cris

Cris,

I am experiencing a conflict.

Having experienced interacting with an individual who had a total memory loss as a result of a motorcycle accident, the individual only had, as far as I could tell, a loss of 'remembered events and, as you indicated, had to build a 'new' personality based in part on new experieces and in part on 'old' experiences related to him. But, and this is what I find difficult to understand, most of his physical behavior (ex. the way he walked, his ability to play soft-ball or bowl, even the way he rode a motorcycle [yeah, he went back to two-wheeling]) was essentially the same as it was prior to the accident and his subsequent loss of memory.

Although I continued to interact with him for about three years after the accident, never, to the best of my knowledge, did he ever experience a return of memory regarding events prior to the accident. I guess it's for this reason that I really feel that there is a form of 'learning' that is not brain related.

Chagur,

I understand that short-term memory behaves quite differently to long-term memory. I remember a case study from many years ago where a musician (he composed organ music), had lost his short-term memory. He was still able to play the organ very well and from memory. He also remembered he had a wife but every time he saw her he would react as if he had not seen her for years and the greeting was very emotional each time, even though she had been with him only minutes before. He tried to keep a diary and when it was reviewed it was found that he had written down certain actions appended with the words ‘for the first time’. When reading through the diary it was clear that had done these certain actions for the first time many times.

The case of bike riding, playing a musical instrument, walking, swimming, all seem to be committed to long-term memory. But these memories are still retained in the brain but they appear to be dispersed among many areas. In this way it would be very difficult to lose long-term memory. Our discussion regarding total amnesia isn’t really total, but selective short/medium term. I suspect that to lose all memory would mean very significant and non-survivable brain damage.

But you propose an interesting thought, but where would these memories be held if they were not in the brain? And consider this, if you were to lose a leg, and an arm, etc etc, would the YOU that you know as YOU still be the same person? In terms of how you think and your memories I hope you would agree that you had not changed, ignoring for the moment the trauma experienced from losing many limbs. For example, I suspect that despite having no legs you would still recall how to walk. Or do you believe that that would not be the case?

Cris

Have to agree, Cris.

I believe the 'phantom limb' phenomena is well documented and could well be an attempt by the brain to experience what is no more. Re. loosing a limb, again I have to agree. The 'memory' of how the limb was used is not lost as it would be if a portion of the memory were 'stored' in the limb itself. I guess the 'total memory loss' is what threw me.

hey all
cris-chagur
i was under the impresion that some people forgot how to walk!
thus to walk with one leg is to lak in a different manner!
to be a person with 4 arms and 4 legs.....?
would you think differently?
could you cover distances with greater ease and speed than a bi pedal?
would not building a house be faster and thus less effort?

im not suggesting that a person that has lost a limb is less of a person but i would speculate that they would make considerations that would impact their enviroment that would create a reality that would be different!

! quick thought re phanton limb pain-maybe the spiritual self is yet to accept the loss and thus gives pain to re-establish a link?


just a ponderrince :D

groove on all :)

Chagur & Cris,

I believe Cris' description of long-term and short-term memory explains things to an extent, but there is an additional fact I'd like to point out.

It's not always necessary for a sensory impulse to reach the brain in order to trigger a motor response. Sensory fibers can link directly to a motor synapse in the spinal cord, forming a reflex function that performs automatically. As a result, tapping the kneecap causes the impulse to travel to the spinal cord, and a response from there directly back to the leg muscle, with the end result of making the leg jerk involuntarily. The brain only serves to inhibit a response now and then, such as a withdrawal reflex against the prick of a hypodermic needle.

In addition, voluntary actions initiated in the brain may become reflex actions through continued use: such responses are called conditioned reflexes, and habit formation and much of learning are dependent on them.

To illustrate: when learning to type, you coordinate sensory input from both eyes and muscles in order to direct your fingers to particular keys. However, after enough repetition, an alteration of impulse routes occurs that permits responses without mediation by higher nerve centers. That is, the fingers automatically find and strike the proper keys even with eyes closed: typing has become a conditioned reflex.

I've understood that lots of basic motor activity, including walking and presumably playing different sports, are conditioned reflexes. That would mean they aren't really 'stored' in the brain, but rather the spinal cord. (Although many people would argue the nerves in the spinal cord are a part of the the whole brain, so it will be dependent on that definition whether sensory processing takes place 'outside' the brain/mind or not.)

As a related tidbit, I've heard there have been people with such serious spinal injury that communications between the spinal cord and the brain has been cut off, but with the aid of some sort of spinal nerve 'stimulator', they've been able to walk anyway (using the reflex action), although how clumsily I can't say...

Arto

When we say the world, I think the general assumption of the thread was to say mankind. By the end of the century, hopefully, we'll be on other planets.

In the mean time the naturall cause will probably be an asteriod impact, that we won't know about until its about thirty seconds from slamming into the ground.

World wars by in large won't happen. The USSR is dead, and Russia, the only other country that has a formidible nuclear arsenal is a democratic nation. China doesn't have enough to kill us all.

Famines and plagues probably won't kill us all.

Personally I believe in the Christian interpertation of the end of the world. The seas will boil, the sky will turn complete dark, the moon will turn blood red, every mountain top will be flattened, and every valley raised. Personally Jesus will come back, kill the bad and take the good. So let that be a reminder people, be nice to eachother. Do you really want to gamble on the chance of God coming back and killing you? Personally I wouldn't take the risk.


"I am putting gmyself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entitiy can ever hope to do." --HAL 9000 from 2001: A Space Odysey

I would believe you aren't from the United States, because you write your dates with the day, month, then the year. If I had to pick I would say European, maybe from the UK. Just a guess. You seem intelligent for an alien, or whatever your pretending to be. Could it be a collective of bumblebees? Beats me.
Personally I've never liked collectives, they remind me of dirty commies. If you'd like to know I'm a sentient human being from the good ol' US of A!!!!!!!!

We are backslash777. We observe your post. A group has been initiated, its manifesto to focus on our posts.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=3157&goto=newpost
We wish not to influence the aim of any discussion group and have observed how the focus drifts towards us. It is for this reason we participate in the group dedicated to ourselves.
We have followed your posts for two days, since you registered thecurly1, junior member from USA and derive benefit from your imagination.
It is with your previous posts in mind we respond.
You, like conventional science are wrong about the mass of light. Extrapolation of Einstein’s theory of relativity suggests that for the speed of light to be attained mass must be infinite. This extrapolation is in error as astronomy suggests. For the path of light to be influenced by gravity then it must have a mass. Black holes pull in light and alter its path.
Human language is limiting, based on command not concept. It is for this reason we cannot explain sufficient detail but with great thought you may understand that if Einstein’s theory was to become a law there can be no such experience as velocity itself.
We understand how you use a two dimensional representation to visualise the universe, comparing gravity to dents within a 2 dimensional plate. This is nothing more than simplification and does not work for each and every working of the universe.
We observe your thoughts on time travelling. Each on of you is travelling through time at the moment. The discoveries you have made only allow for a change in the rate you travel forwards. We do however observe your interest in retro time travel. Every presumption formed by the Human species on the behaviour of the universe is against such possibilities.

To quote one of your many self discovered laws which point against reverse time travelling, Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. This law has yet to be broken within both our observable universes.

Reverse time travelling breaks this theory. Should you travel back in time the cosmos at the moment in time you cross back to would profit from the energy held within the mass of your own body.

The only occasion the arrow of time is to reverse is to occur when the universe begins to implode on itself should its mass be sufficient. This is because of the law you created yourself which states chaos will always increase within a closed system. We feel the reason for your assumption is that there are always many more combinations for chaos than order. There are many combinations for two liquids, one red and one blue but only one combination of blue on one side and red on the other. Once a divide has been removed from the two liquids they will mix and it is theoretically possible for the mixture to return to its original state but unlikely due to the chaotic combinations possible.

When the universe implodes it will be returning to a state of order, chaos will decrease. To preserve your law of entropy (chaos) the arrow of time must reverse. Either this will happen or your own law of increase in entropy must be downgraded to a theory.

We await your thoughts on this. As always, your imagination inspires us.

We are backslash777. We observe your post. A group has been initiated, its manifesto to focus on our posts.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=3157&goto=newpost

We wish not to influence the aim of any discussion group and have observed how the focus drifts towards us. It is for this reason we participate in the group dedicated to ourselves.
We have followed your posts for two days, since you registered thecurly1, junior member from USA and derive benefit from your imagination.
It is with your previous posts in mind we respond.
You, like conventional science are wrong about the mass of light. Extrapolation of Einstein’s theory of relativity suggests that for the speed of light to be attained mass must be infinite. This extrapolation is in error as astronomy suggests. For the path of light to be influenced by gravity then it must have a mass. Black holes pull in light and alter its path.
Human language is limiting, based on command not concept. It is for this reason we cannot explain sufficient detail but with great thought you may understand that if Einstein’s theory was to become a law there can be no such experience as velocity itself.
We understand how you use a two dimensional representation to visualise the universe, comparing gravity to dents within a 2 dimensional plate. This is nothing more than simplification and does not work for each and every working of the universe.
We observe your thoughts on time travelling. Each on of you is travelling through time at the moment. The discoveries you have made only allow for a change in the rate you travel forwards. We do however observe your interest in retro time travel. Every presumption formed by the Human species on the behaviour of the universe is against such possibilities.

To quote one of your many self discovered laws which point against reverse time travelling, Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. This law has yet to be broken within both our observable universes.

Reverse time travelling breaks this theory. Should you travel back in time the cosmos at the moment in time you cross back to would profit from the energy held within the mass of your own body.

The only occasion the arrow of time is to reverse is to occur when the universe begins to implode on itself should its mass be sufficient. This is because of the law you created yourself which states chaos will always increase within a closed system. We feel the reason for your assumption is that there are always many more combinations for chaos than order. There are many combinations for two liquids, one red and one blue but only one combination of blue on one side and red on the other. Once a divide has been removed from the two liquids they will mix and it is theoretically possible for the mixture to return to its original state but unlikely due to the chaotic combinations possible.

When the universe implodes it will be returning to a state of order, chaos will decrease. To preserve your law of entropy (chaos) the arrow of time must reverse. Either this will happen or your own law of increase in entropy must be downgraded to a theory.

We await your thoughts on this. As always, your imagination inspires us.

I won't try to avoid the oppinion on my theory towards time travel, and light having mass. Personally I'm a bit conservative and still believe in those theories. What you are doing is very importnat, you are challegning conventional thought. Something that isn't done enough. I respect you for that, a little revolution keeps the system in check, and makes sure it doesn't become to bloaded.
Its a bit flattering that my imagination inspires you, thank you. I was wondering if you read my other two threads on the end of the world, and about NATO. I would be interested in a reply for those from you. Backslash 777 you are a very intelligent entity.

P.S. Though this is a stupid human emotion as you would put it, i'm still a bit jelous. I can only aspire to such greatness in the field of science. Watch your wrists, all that typing could lead to serious corporal tunnel syndrom.

"I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do." --HAL 9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey

We are backslash777. Emotion is not obtuse. We fail to match your ability to make probability assessments nor adapt similar experiences to serve usefulness in a differing situation. Human thought speed is slow but compensated by an apparent boost due to conjecture.
We have scrutinized each and every one of your assertions and the proclamations of other users within this group. We become aware of how the topic of this group has distracted from its original discussion and propose progressing outside of this group, within the one dedicated to our posts.
Does your idiom “Watch your wrists, all that typing could lead to serious corporal tunnel syndrome.” presage we may well require to expire in a diminutive period?
We identify each words classification yet fail to derive significance from the technique the axiom is ordered.

I wasn't replying towards how the world will end. My reply was commenting you and your consortium of people on how they challenge conventional human thought, which is very important to me. Without the challenge, the common system of thought will become stagnant, and egotistical which is bad for all of us. About the corporal tunnel syndrome, that was a bit of humor. Call it bad humor if you like, but humor none the less. I'm just watching out for your extremities, which have been informing us with oh so many important threads.

Once again I take the quote of my imagination inspiring you as a compliment. Thank you.