Today, while browsing the Religion Forum, I found a thread that piqued my interest. In it was a member who said, "dont start trying to use your cold hard logic, because it's the creation of humans, and humans arent perfect."

Why is this? Why aren't humans perfect? I question the logic of having an all-knowing powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.

All my sins, that I've ever had, are Gods fault. Not mine. It is he that is at fault for not creating perfect humans in the first place.

I don't believe in the devil either. Ya know, that supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of mankind. I don't think he needs the help anyways.

P.S. For those of you that remember, Coffee is a theist. But alas! No longer I am! Im really into this Buddhism thing now. Om Mani Padme Hum.

CC,

Yes why indeed would a designer who is deemed perfect create something imperfect and then blame the creation for a poor design?

perhaps humans were created imperfect, but given the capability to better themselves...

i will never be perfect, but perhaps i can learn to become a better person than i was before

Originally posted by stray dog
perhaps humans were created imperfect, but given the capability to better themselves...

i will never be perfect, but perhaps i can learn to become a better person than i was before

but we seem to be both physically and mentally imperfect...should we then strive to improve both?

and why?

because god didn't bother to do it properly himself?

Originally posted by Cris
CC,

Yes why indeed would a designer who is deemed perfect create something imperfect and then blame the creation for a poor design?
Cris,
A shirt which seems perfect to you when you wear it & appears imperfect when i wear it.. why blame the designer.. if i am free to modify it to make it perfect to me i have no reason to blame the design.

Humans certainly aren't perfect, but that's because perfect is a completely subjective term. There's no concrete standard for what perfect acctualy means.

I think it would at least be better to say that our mental faculties are sufficient to understand and percieve the world around us, and to organize and interperate information that we gather. However, acctualy doing this is, of course, optional, which is where religion comes in, heh.

You can only do so much with a shirt, before its inherent properties limit your abilities to modify it. Or you abilities limit your ability to modify it.

shirt is a simple analogy.. but we too have inherent abilities to acquire knowledge, play around with creation (to some extent, as of now). we can overcome what we percieve imperfection. God is not going to prevent us..! where-ever we end up - we are answerable for that.

He gave the whistle.. the ground (universe) and rules (natural laws) are ready. we have to play the game as per rules.. we are free to choose our own style, manner, ethic, morality, ideals, goals etc.. what would be the outcome - God only knows..! may be we have to play/train/exercise again & again till get perfection in the game.

PS : the above is my personal view.. not necessarily be God's idea..! that none knows.

edit :typo

maybe god doesn't have a view on any matter.


it certainly looks that way...

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
maybe god doesn't have a view on any matter.


it certainly looks that way...

that is your view based on your experience/knowledge..

i have never heard god express his opinion on recent matters (recent=last 2000 years)

but some of the players (muslims) say He expressed so 1400 years back too some specific things..!

Because if God created us perfect, we would not NEED him, and would not worship Him.

He is a neurotic, jealous, abusive lover with low self esteem and power issues.

Hey Coffee.
What flavor of Buddhism?

Originally posted by one_raven
Because if God created us perfect, we would not NEED him, and would not worship Him.

He is a neurotic, jealous, abusive lover with low self esteem and power issues.


ahh.. God is there then.. but one thing.. He can't be neurotic for He does not need nerve system to support him..! jealousy of perfect humans.! hahaha.. and other things viz abusive, low self-esteem & power issues etc.. i don't believe in Devil.

dude dont blame your sins on god. god created us perfect. BUT perfect stuff go bad because of all the evil done by satan. satan was perfect too at one time, but he got a little to proud...then he rebelled agasint god. Just like humans. Humans wanted to even be more perfect when they thought they would be like god when they ate the apple. and they defiled them selves.




(p.s that was me)

Originally posted by everneo
but some of the players (muslims) say He expressed so 1400 years back too some specific things..!

oh ok...he must take extensive holidays though...created the earth 6000 years ago...did the son thing 2000 years ago...go bored...went to barbados for some relaxing...returned 1400 years ago...said something about virgins in heaven...went away again...probably embarrassed by its own incompetence in public speaking.

all the time He is interested in the process going on the field. since we are all busy with our dirty game we forget him let alone notice his frantic warning signals..! He doesn't interfere more than necessary..! a true Democratic, wise-gentle-guy.

Originally posted by everneo
all the time He is interested in the process going on the field. since we are all busy with our dirty game we forget him let alone notice his frantic warning signals..! He doesn't interfere more than necessary..! a true Democratic, wise-gentle-guy.

he is not a very good communciator then if he can't put accross his 'frantic warning signals' ????

Edgar,


dude dont blame your sins on god. Why not? If his design was perfect then we would be fully aware of the need not to sin and wouldn’t do so.

If we have the free will to choose between good and evil then if we were designed perfectly then we would always make the correct decision.

If you design a machine that goes wrong then the problem is entirely that of the designer and not the machine.


god created us perfect. BUT perfect stuff go bad because of all the evil done by satan. Something created perfect but goes wrong when in use is clearly not perfect. If God knew that Satan was going to be around then his design of perfect humans would have included the ability to resist Satan.

Since it is claimed that God can do no wrong then we can only conclude that he designed humans to be imperfect deliberately. Otherwise you would need to conclude that God made an error and that would be impossible for a perfect god.


satan was perfect too at one time, but he got a little to proud...then he rebelled against god. The same argument applies; if he was perfect then he could not have gone wrong.


Just like humans. Humans wanted to even be more perfect when they thought they would be like god when they ate the apple. and they defiled them selves.How can someone be more perfect? That makes no sense.

But there is a major fallacy here. Remember that the apple was from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil. Eating the apple enabled man to realize that eating the apple was bad. Before eating the apple man could not have possessed the knowledge to understand that disobeying God would be wrong, and as such they cannot be held responsible for their actions. In other words the myth shows an evil god manipulating his imperfect creations into a deliberate trap so that he could spend eternity watching them suffer in torment.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
he is not a very good communciator then if he can't put accross his 'frantic warning signals' ????

Those who are aware that the game is being moderated / monitored get the signals fairly. those who play fair ( as well as those who play dirty game ) but refuse to realize that there is umpire, expect the umpire, if He is there, to come to them & kick/remind them when they err (most effective communication as for as they are concerned..! no offence spuriousmonkey..!) but that might not be the rules of the game..!

But there is a major fallacy here. Remember that the apple was from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil. Eating the apple enabled man to realize that eating the apple was bad. Before eating the apple man could not have possessed the knowledge to understand that disobeying God would be wrong, and as such they cannot be held responsible for their actions. In other words the myth shows an evil god manipulating his imperfect creations into a deliberate trap so that he could spend eternity watching them suffer in torment.

You're absolutely right, but keep in mind that there is more than one version of the Adam & Eve story and nobody knows for sure which one we should stick with. For example, in Nag Hammadi the snake represents the true god or rather its female principle, Sophia, and is the one who wanted people to have knowledge and immortality (symbolized by apples). The god that actually forced Adam and Eve to leave paradise was only a false demiurge.
-------

Yes, people aren't perfect and so we might as well enjoy our imperfections. ;)

Originally posted by Cris
Edgar,

Before eating the apple man could not have possessed the knowledge to understand that disobeying God would be wrong, and as such they cannot be held responsible for their actions. In other words the myth shows an evil god manipulating his imperfect creations into a deliberate trap so that he could spend eternity watching them suffer in torment.
Cris,
there is another view. it is like challenging His one time buddie, mr.satan that His (God's) creations will not defy His advice whatever way satie tries. but adam & co let the God down by their free will. it is not that they've gone with satie but they've betrayed their creator and His trust on them.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
but we seem to be both physically and mentally imperfect...should we then strive to improve both?

and why?

because god didn't bother to do it properly himself?


yes, we should strive to improve ourselves in every way;
it is my understananding that humans only use about 10 to 20%
of brain capabilities, we have far to go.

we have been given the means by which to better ourselves
personally, and better ourselves as a whole society;

we have made great advances in medicine, yet we still need to feed the hungry of the world, we have made advances in governing, yet we still need to address the overpopulation issue, etc

we are capable of great things even though we are imperfect,
we should be grateful for what we have to build on

Originally posted by stray dog
...humans only use about 10 to 20%
of brain capabilities....
I'm convinced that this is a myth. I went looking for how they decided upon 10-20%, and could find only secondary references that didn't have a source. It may be true that at any one time we only use a portion of our brain... but we don't simply have all that mass sitting up there to keep our head from caving in.

Well no,we use other parts for,seeing,hearing,balance and so on,the intelligence and memory is only what we percieve 20%,the other bits we cant use cos there busy making us see,hear,remember yesterday and so on.

perhaps this is so;
but we still have room for improvement

what have we learned from those generations before us, and where will our thoughts take us in the future?

being imperfect means than we SHOULD continue to advance ourselves through scientific and philosophical investigation.

regardless of how much brain capacity we actually use, the point is that we have a unique brain, and this is our most important tool to better ourselves.

(also, I would get more satisfaction out of building a machine that could improve itself, as opposed to building a perfect machine)

One_Raven,


Because if God created us perfect, we would not NEED him, and would not worship Him.

Actually I believe it to be the other way around. If we were perfect, and everything was just peachy, then we would worship God. Why not? I would know, that sense everything is perfect, that God existed. So I would worship him. Things are not perfect.


He is a neurotic, jealous, abusive lover with low self esteem and power issues.

So God is an Atheist?


What flavor of Buddhism?

Im not looking for a religion. Im just one of the types of people that want to avoid suffering. I've been reading "The Art Of Happiness" by The Dali Lama. Good stuff.

Brain wise weve been the same for the last 30,000 years
so we have learnt otherwise we wouldnt be where we are now,and we will continue to improve and change,but as a species our brain wont change unless evolution requires it.

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He is a neurotic, jealous, abusive lover with low self esteem and power issues.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So God is an Atheist?
Sounds catholic to me.

You're absolutely right, but keep in mind that there is more than one version of the Adam & Eve story and nobody knows for sure which one we should stick with.

=======================

The "mystery" of the Serpent's Seed.....

In the garden of God, the Serpent walked upright, talked to Eve, and eventually beguiled her into disbelieving God's word and believing the devil's lie. The true meaning of the word sin is "unbelief", This Serpent however was merely an animal, and therefore could be possessed and used by the devil, for it did not have a soul like a Man. The Serpent was the closest member of the animal species to Man. Adam was created in the image of God, an attribute of God's own genes, a Son of God. And like a son grows up to reflect the image of his father, Adam was to reflect God's image , to manifest God in this physical realm. He was created the first of a new species, higher in power and authority than the angels," The Sons of God". Eve was not in the original creation, but was taken from Adam, a by-product, this is why she could be deceived. Lucifer had stated "he desired a kingdom more glorious than Michael's" , and said "I will ascend up and set as God and be worshipped as God". The scriptures say he deceived one-third of the angels in heaven, and when he spoke through the serpent to deceive Eve he was trying to carry out his plans to destroy God's future kingdom and create his own "Satan's Eden ", where he sits as God, and is worshipped as God, by all the peoples of the earth. Science, education, and modern civilization are all a part of his plan to get people to lean on their own understanding, instead of faith in God, who is the Word (1 john 1:1-14 ).

The bible says "God himself came down in the cool of the evening, and talked with Adam". As he listened to the words God spoke he was partaking (eating ) of the Tree of Life, who is God (In the book of Proverbs it says, "the words of a righteous man are as the fruits of the tree of life")The tree of the knowledge of good and evil , was the serpent , which they were commanded not to eat of least they die. ( a mixed tree containing the truth mixed with lies) The best lie is the one that contains 99% of the truth, and only 1% lie. The Serpent said to Eve, "surely you shall not die, but your eyes shall be opened and you shall be like gods". Adam was created by the spoken Word. Satan can not create something from nothing, he can only pervert something God has already created, so he used the serpent to seduce Eve and thereby create a hybrid race. It's been documented many times that a woman can have sex with two different men within a 24 hour period and conceive by both of them ,giving birth to twins, both of different fathers. The scriptures say "Cain was of his father the wicked one", And after being with the serpent, Eve went to show Adam this that she'd learned, the bible says" Adam knew his wife Eve, and she bore him a son, Cain, and then bare his brother Abel. So there are two sons representing two separate races, The Sons of God, and the Sons of Men.
Abel, being a true Son of God, received revelation from God about what had happened in the garden , that it had been blood (not an apple or something) that had caused the fall and had driven them out, and it would take blood, the blood of an innocent one, to bring them back to an unfallen state. Since the whole human race had fell into sin, he saw it would take a kinsman redeemer (Jesus Christ), God coming down as a man to die for our sins, releasing His Holy Spirit to come back upon humanity as a tutor and guide them back into all truth .
God revealed to him that a lamb would be accepted in the place of the real propitiation for our sins as a type or shadow of the real until it came.
In the new testament it says " they who are led by the spirit of God, these are called the Sons of God". Cain received no such revelation, being of the serpent's seed, and offered to God a selection of the grains of the field , which were the fruits of his own labors, and his offering was rejected. After Abel was killed, Adam had another son through Eve and his name was Seth. Through Seth's lineage God's line was restored.

Originally posted by everneo
but adam & co let the God down by their free will. it is not that they've gone with satie but they've betrayed their creator and His trust on them. Did god expect this? If yes? Then why blame the human if nothing can change that outcome? If no, then god is not perfect! That's bad....

Everneo,


there is another view. it is like challenging His one time buddie, mr.satan that His (God's) creations will not defy His advice whatever way satie tries. but adam & co let the God down by their free will. it is not that they've gone with satie but they've betrayed their creator and His trust on them.But that still can only be fair and just if Adam and Eve are fully aware that the actions they choose through their free will could be good or bad and that betraying their creator is bad. Until thay ate from the tree that gave such knowledge they would not have been able to know that betrayal and disobedience was bad. Whether they were tempted by Satan or not is irrelevant, they simply had not been adequately educated as to the repercussions and meanings of their actions. The whole story is a sham. And note that this is the source of the original sin that condemns mankind to death and the basis for the coming of Jesus to save mankind, i.e. Adam and Eve’s alleged actions are the route justification for Christianity. Now since the A&E story is a sham then it follows that Christianity has no valid basis and must also be a sham.

Circe,

OK, but I'll stay with the classic and dominant definition for now. But thanks anyway.

This whole T-Shirt thing. One question, only one. If god wanted people to believe in him, why did he invent logic?

Originally posted by Cris
Everneo,

But that still can only be fair and just if Adam and Eve are fully aware that the actions they choose through their free will could be good or bad and that betraying their creator is bad. Until thay ate from the tree that gave such knowledge they would not have been able to know that betrayal and disobedience was bad. Whether they were tempted by Satan or not is irrelevant, they simply had not been adequately educated as to the repercussions and meanings of their actions.

Cris,

Knowledge of Bad, opposite of Good, (but generally it is being termed as knowledge of good & bad), comes only after that fruit, thanks to satan. Adams were not created dumb as to have an excuse for ignoring the specific warning given to them by their Creator. Why Adam hesitated first..? he knew that was deviating from God's Will. i think they betrayed God the moment they decided to go against His Will and had their Seperation from God.

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Did god expect this? If yes? Then why blame the human if nothing can change that outcome? If no, then god is not perfect! That's bad....
May be God knows lot of & all of outcomes. A&E had chosen their own though they had a chance to have God's favoured outcome. (ie by not defying Him).

so wisdom your saying some of us are the sons of darkenss and the sons of god?

i mean visitor

Originally posted by everneo
May be God knows lot of & all of outcomes. A&E had chosen their own though they had a chance to have God's favoured outcome. (ie by not defying Him).

That is reasonable everneo, but why would god make them choose in the first place?

I thought that god made man perfect? I mean they were in his image, made by a perfect being. Why would they err in the first place?

And why would god give them the choice of having evil if he knew that they would be destroyed? Why have evil in the first place? Why did he allow evil to survive?

ZERO MASS

edgar said:
So ........your saying some of us are the sons of darkness and the sons of god?

===================

Yes.
The sons of God are a piece of God's own Life.
They will "hear" His "voice".
Another's voice they will not follow. They will receive the Word and follow It all the way to the manifestation of the sons of God prophecied for this day. They will not be impregnated by Satan's seed which is his word, the truth MIXED with a lie as in the beginning, that he has sown from the false doctrine of the so-called "christian" denominational churchs.
Rev 18 1-4 shows the result of Satans lie forming up his bride, the worldly christian churches in the last age.
When Jesus Christ comes in Rev. 3:20, it shows Him coming to them as the Word of God and they reject Him just as the Jews did. He stands at the door and knocks.....from the outside trying to get in.
Isaiah spoke of them in the parable of the "Seven Women" in the last days..

Isaiah 4:1 - And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach

"In that day seven women (women like Eve is always a type of the church) will take hold of one man and say.."We will eat our own bread (thats word, doctrine...teachings see.. Jesus said I am the bread the came down from heaven and He is the Word)......and wear our own apparel;...(This is there version of the wedding garmet given to the bride of Christ , by the rightousness of Jesus Christ....but they have their "own" rightousness they want to wear....they creeds and false doctrines, like Cain without revelation, the fruits of their own labors)....only let us be called by your name..("Christian".... see, by the name of Christ), to take away our reproach.

The others will not recognize the truth when It comes. Like Cain they receive no revelation from God because they are none of His, but they are very religious being anointed by the fallen spirits trying to get back to heaven. These eccessiastical demons that fell with Satan have been blinded and have been held in everlasting chains of darkness reserved until this day. They are just like the spirit that anointed the Serpent I spoke pof in the beginning.
It was only an animal, Satan was in control of it and spoke through it as a vessel.
He can control His "children", the same way. They will never see the truth, but will imitate and impersonate carnally everything every religious move of God.
In the last days the two spitits will be so close it would deceive the very "elected" IF it were posible...but it is not posible to deceive the elect of God because they are The Word.
They are The Word just as Jesus was the Word.
This "Eve" will not fall this time because Jesus came and paid the price for us, to redeem us.
What does the word redeem mean.....?
To be brought back, from where something once was.
We were of God from the beginning, He saw us in His mind from the foundation of the world and predestinated us unto this glory, to be partakers of His gloy....to be "like" Him when he appears, and He has.
He was the beginning of the "creation" of God, the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN.....The Sons of God.
See the scriptures refering to whats said of these Sons of God in the last days, and the beginning of the Day of the Lord which is now.


John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

Romans 8:19 - For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Philippians 2:15 - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1 - Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Visitor,

Why the ALLCAPS? Do you feel the need to "shout" to get your point across?

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth
unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets,
which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are
ravening wolves." -Matthew 7:14-15 (KJV)

Genesis 6:9 _These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 17:1 _¶And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

1 Kings 15:14 _But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

Job 1:1 _¶There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 _And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

etc., etc., etc.,

If God made man Perfectly, then we would be equal to him and like him... just imagine our world if everyone was a clone of yourself...boring! There would be no reason, and no purpose. There is a reason and a purpose now, we just don't know what it is.

Besides, a perfect God and a perfect man equals the loss of 'balance of oposites'!

Genesis 6:9 _These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 17:1 _¶And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

1 Kings 15:14 _But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

Job 1:1 _¶There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 _And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

etc., etc., etc.,

If God made man Perfectly, then we would be equal to him and like him... just imagine our world if everyone was a clone of yourself...boring! There would be no reason, and no purpose. There is a reason and a purpose, we just don't know what it is. It could be as simple as it, (sin and impurfection), gave God 'purpose'! Besides, a perfect God and a perfect man equals the loss of 'balance of oposites'!
(I didn't read the whole thread, so I hope I'm not being repaticious.)

edgar,
On the subject of the "Seed of Discrepency"

(from a message titled "the seed of discrepency") Jan 18, 1965
"Notice, their seeds grew together just exactly like God said over here also in the 13th chapter of our text tonight, of Matthew, "Let them grow together." Now, Cain went to the land of Nod, found himself a wife, and married; and Abel was slewn, and God raised up Seth to take his place. And the generations started moving on, between right and wrong. Now, we notice they gathered, each one of them, time after time, and God had to... It got so wicked till God had to destroy it.
But they finally came forth until both of those seeds, the seed of discrepancy and the Seed of God put forth their genuine heads, and that wound up in Judas Iscariot and in Jesus Christ. For He was the Seed of God; He was the beginning of the creation of God, He was nothing less than God. And Judas Iscariot was borned the son of perdition, come from hell, returned to hell. Jesus Christ was the Son of God, the Word of God made manifest. Judas Iscariot in his discrepancy was the seed of the Devil, come to the world, and for deceit, just like he was at the beginning, Cain, his former father."


Mathew 13:34
"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
WHY IN PARABLES...? BECAUSE IN ANOTHER PLACE HE SAID UNTO YOU....(THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM) IT HAS BEEN "GIVEN" TO KNOW, BUT UNTO THEM (THE CHILDREN OF THE WORLD) IT HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the son of man.
HE IS THE WORD, IT IS A SEED, THE VERY LIFE OF GOD IN YOU THAT IS QUICKENED WHEN YOU HEAR THE WORDS OF LIFE AND ARE BORN AGAIN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD AS A SPIRIT BABE IN CHRIST.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
HOW DID HE DO IT,....? JUST AS IN THE BEGINNING WITH EVE, BY MIXING A LIE WITH THE TRUTH.....IF SHE (THE CHURCH REMEMBER) BELIEVES IT AND REJECTS CHRIST THE WORD FOR THEIR OWN DOCTRINE, THEY ARE LOST...NOTHING LEFT BUT JUDGEMENT. THIS IS MANIFESTING TIME...THE FULLNESS OF TIME, WHEN ALL THINGS ARE GATHERED TOGETHER, IT'S HARVEST TIME...AND THE SONS OF GOD ARE MANIFESTING GOD, THE TARES MANIFEST WHAT THEY ARE AND ARE GATHERED INTO BUNDLES TO BE BURNED.

The harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
AND HE DID, ALL SEVEN "ANGELS" OR CHURCH AGE MESSINGERS.......PAUL, IRANEUS, MARTIN, COLUMBA, LUTHER, WESLEY, AND BRANHAM. ONE FROM EVERY AGE TO CALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT FROM EACH AGE WHO WILL ACCEPT THE TRUTH, AND THOSE WHO REJECT THE WORD, THE "MESSAGE" FROM GOD FOR THEIR DAY, BIND THEM INTO BUNDLES, TO BE BURNED....(REV.18)....(THE DENOMINATIONS THAT ARE LEFT LIKE THE LIFELESS HUSKS THAT REMAIN AFTER EACH MOVE OF GOD WHEN THE LIFE HAS MOVED ON INTO MORE REVELATION...SEE) THESE ARE THE SEVEN STARS IN HIS HAND. AND THEN AFTER THIS HE SENDS NO MORE MESSINGERS, BUT COMES HIMSELF, TO BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN AS THE SON OF MAN.

And they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
THIS ALWAY SPEAKS OF THE TRIBULATION PERIOD. THE JEWS FOR REJECTING JESUS WILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS PERIOD, TO GIVE THEIR OWN BLOOD BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT ACCEPT THE BLOOD OF JESUS WHEN IT WAS AVAILABLE TO THEM, AND THE CHURCH THAT MISSES HIS COMING AS THE SON OF MAN....THE "FOOLISH VIRGINS" ...THESE ALSO GO THROUGH THIS TRIBULATION PERIOD, FOR THEY ARE FOOLISH NOT WISE, BECAUSE "THE WISE SHALL KNOW THEIR GOD"....
BUT YET "VIRGINS" BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE MARK OF THE BEAST, WHICH IS TO ACCEPT THE REVELATION OF THE FALSE DENOMINATIONAL DOCTRINE INTO THE FOREHEAD OF THEIR REVELATION, OR THE "WOMB" WHERE SATANS SEED IMPREGNATES HIS BRIDE AND TAKES HOLD, OR TO GIVE THE RIGHT HAND OF FELLOWSHIP VOWING TO DO THE WILL OF THE CHURCH.........

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
THE SONS OF GOD MANIFESTED IN THE GLORY HE PREPARED FOR US.......HIS GLORY HE SHARES WITH US. HE SAID TO HIM THAT OVERCOMES IN THIS AGE I WILL GRANT TO HIM TO SET WITH ME IN MY THRONE......HIS THRONE IS HEAVEN, (HEAVEN IS MY THONE AND THE EARTH IS MY FOOTSTOOL) REMEMBER...?
HE COME IN THREE SONS NAMES ...SON OF GOD, SON OF MAN, AND SON OF DAVID.....HE WAS SON OF GOD THROUGH THE AGES, SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND (OR POWER) OF GOD, INTERCEDING FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE, THEN AT THE APPOINTED TIME HE RISES UP FROM THE MERCY SEAT TAKES THE BOOK, (THE BOOK OF REDEMPTION SEALED WITH SEVEN SEALS), AND OPENS THE SEALS AND AS THE SON OF MAN REVEALS WHAT IS IN IT FROM HEAVEN..... THE THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN HID SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD...THIS HAS HAPPENED STARTING IN 1963 WHEN A PROPHET (WILLIAM BRANHAM) WAS ON THE EARTH. SEE THESE TAPE RECORDED SERMONS AND VERBATIM MESSAGES OF THE VERY EVENTS AS THEY HAPPENED HERE....STARTING ON MARCH 17, 1963.
(GOD IN SIMPLICITY)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=919
(THE BREACH)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=920
(THE FIRST SEAL)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=921
(THE SECOND SEAL)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=922
(THE THIRD SEAL)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=923
(THE FOURTH SEAL)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=923
(THE FIFTH SEAL)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=925
(THE SIXTH SEAL)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=926
(Q & A ON THE SEALS)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=927
(THE SEVENTH SEAL)....http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=928

REV. 10:7 " BUT IN THE DAYS OF THE VOICE OF THE SEVENTH ANGEL, (MESSINGER)... WHEN HE BEGINS TO SOUND, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE COMPLETED AS HATH BEEN REVEALED TO HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS".

WHAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GOD....? CHRIST IN YOU. AND CHRIST IS THE WORD, THE FULLNESS OF THE WORD, NOT A PARTIAL LIGHT, LIKE THAT OF THE STARS IN THE NIGHT, BUT WHEN THE SUN COMES UP IN THE MORNING...THE DAY STAR ...ALL THE OTHERS FADE AWAY, AND HE HAS COME. JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF MAN IS HERE.
John 6:53 - "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you"
IT IS THE RISING OF THE SUN.
HE IS NOW BEING REVEALED (HE IS THE WORD AND COMES TO UNITE WITH HIS ELECT IN A SECRET COMING IN WORD FORM, JUST AS THE SCRIPTURES HAVE SAID HE WOULD.)
THOSE WHO REJECTED CHRIST.....ARE MENTIONED IN JOHN 6:66
John 6:66 - "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

THE DISPENSATION WILL SOON CHANGE FROM THE REVELATION OF THE SON OF MAN WHICH IT IS NOW, TO THE DISPENSATION OF THE "SON OF DAVID"
DURING THE MILLENIUM CHRIST WILL REIGN ON THE THRONE WITH HIS BRIDE...THE TWO BECOME ONE, A TYPE OF SOLOMON, WHEN THE SON OF DAVID WHO WAS THE WISEST MAN IN THE WORLD.
HE SAT ON THE TRONE WITH THE DISERNMENT OF GOD, AND THE QUEEN OF SHEBA SAID: IT WAS LIKE A GOD SITTING THERE...NOTHING WAS WITHHELD FROM HIM IN KNOWING.
THE SAINTS OF GOD SHALL REIGN WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS.....AND THE NATIONS WILL COME INTO THE CITY TO INQUIRE OF THE WISDOM OF THE LORD. THIS IS THE REST.

THE MYSTERIES OF GOD REVEALED WILL CALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT, THEY WILL HEAR "HIS" VOICE IN THEM, THE RING OF TRUTH AND ANOTHERS THEY WILL NOT FOLLOW..."ONLY THOSE THE FATHER HAS GIVEN ME WILL COME".
THE MESSAGE TODAY IS THE FULLNESS OF GOD REVEALED AND HE IS THE WORD.

People who write ALL CAPS are hackers,watch out for them,they write in all caps to be recognised by other hackers.

You think,damn bit rude writing all caps,and they do it seemingly without reason,but as i said there is a very dark reason for it.

As I said before, I'm only making a clear difference between scripture, and quotes from sermons (in reg.) the part I'm commenting on..(in Bold) and my comments (in caps italics).

Dont matter,i was actually hoping you were a hacker,cos id rather be hacked to death than read that bullshit.

God chose the foolishness of preaching for the perfecting of His saints.
Man was made in the Image of God, as a son of God, and through Christ Jesus we are redeemed and are called to come into the "Stature of a perfect Man" (2 Pet.)

Hebrews 6:1 - Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 17:23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;

1 Corinthians 2:6 - Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 13:10 - But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Ephesians 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

2 Peter 1:2 - "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Originally posted by Zero Mass
And why would god give them the choice of having evil if he knew that they would be destroyed? Why have evil in the first place? Why did he allow evil to survive?

ZERO MASS

God only knows..! we don't know the full / real story.

We live on a planet in which 71% of it is covered by water. A home for mankind created by God for us, yet we don't have any gils.

If humans aren't perfect, and we were made in Gods image, then God himself cannot be perfect?

IMAGE:

1 : to call up a mental picture of : IMAGINE
2 : to describe or portray in language especially in a vivid manner
3 a : to create a representation of; also : to form an image of b : to represent symbolically
4 a : REFLECT, MIRROR b : to make appear : PROJECT
- im·ag·er /'i-mi-j&r/ noun

This came straight from a dictionary.

I don't know of anywhere in the Bible where it says that God made exact duplicates of himself. As I said before, why would God want to clone himself? (Actually, cloning isn't what I was looking for either. An exact copy or duplicate is what I am looking for.) Why would he do that?

Gee, Ya know, after looking at the definitions, the first one kind of goes along with the theory that this exsistance is nothing more than a fantasy, a thought, an idea. That would explain a lot of things that I posted in a thread called 'Stranger things could happen?...' in the Pseudoscience section, like cellphones, computers, etc.

"A thing is perfect in which nothing is wanting of its nature, purpose, or end. It may be perfect in nature, yet imperfect inasmuch as it has not yet attained its end, whether this be in the same order as itself, or whether, by the will of God and His gratuitous liberality, it be entirely above its nature, i. e. in the supernatural order. From Revelation we learn that the ultimate end of man is supernatural, consisting in union with God here on earth by grace and hereafter in heaven by the beatific vision. Perfect union with God cannot be attained in this life, so man is imperfect in that he lacks the happiness for which he is destined and suffers many evils both of body and soul. Perfection therefore in its absolute sense is reserved for the kingdom of heaven."

[More... (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11665b.htm )]

Originally posted by everneo
May be God knows lot of & all of outcomes. A&E had chosen their own though they had a chance to have God's favoured outcome. (ie by not defying Him). I don't think knowing all the possible outcomes make one powerful. Many people know lot of & all the possible outcomes of a lottery, but that doesn't make them rich. Obviously god failed to predict the exact outcome.

I don't know of anywhere in the Bible where it says that God made exact duplicates of himself. As I said before, why would God want to clone himself? (Actually, cloning isn't what I was looking for either. An exact copy or duplicate is what I am looking for.) Why would he do that?

===============

He didn't. The bible says He created man in His own image...thats a likeness not an exact copy.

Like your son is created in your image. He has your eyes, hair color maybe..ect...he has your character....

God had "attributes" to be expressed like any father. Like a man's "genes" are in Him, before he takes a wife, and then he has children........It's that simple.

The first man Adam was created in the image of God, a part of Gods own life a son of God.....but God was a spirit, so the first creation was a spirit also.

Then a man was created from the dust of the earth to house this spirit.
We are a tri-une being ......body, spirit, and soul.

Jesus was called the "beginning" of the creation of God, the firstborn of many brethren.

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
I don't think knowing all the possible outcomes make one powerful. Many people know lot of & all the possible outcomes of a lottery, but that doesn't make them rich. Obviously god failed to predict the exact outcome.

He knew the exact outcome (besides all other possible outcomes). That was why He forewarned not to do.

This was not a case of winning in lottery. This was about losing the existing status. In such a situation, however dumb you are - not knowing how it is going to be bad - would you go by your friend's word (not to select a specific ticket) or would you follow a stranger's word to select exactly the same ticket. If you choose the later then you don't deserve to have a friend who was everything to you.

Adams went with a stranger's word despite a warning from their creator. i think, they did not deserve to be with God any more. As a matter of fact, the moment they decided against God to get the fruit , God would have decided not to intervene for they did not deserve to be prevented from going away from Him.

May be, in reality the situation might be much more complex and we don't know what was God's Will then. Why people are much sympathetic with Adams as if they were innocents not knowing what they were doing when they screwed up God's trust and themselves when they were running after a stranger. i don't think God created them as dumb as we think.

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Jesus was called the "beginning" of the creation of God, the firstborn of many brethren.
Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and
tell me what I am like."

They replied, "You are the eschatological manifestation of
the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of the
context of our very selfhood revealed."

And Jesus replied, "What?"

RE: TheVisitor: He didn't. The bible says He created man in His own image...thats a likeness not an exact copy.

That is precisely what I was saying with the dictionary definition.

Originally posted by everneo
He knew the exact outcome (besides all other possible outcomes). That was why He forewarned not to do. Can you see the problem here? If god knew the exact outcome, what's the point to forwarn? A futile attempt to change the outcome that he knew he couldn't change? Or a public stunt to save his face?

and when he means in his likeness, he means of our souls. god is immortal. he doesnt have a human body. so you could call him a spirit. our bodies are mortal and frail, but we have an immortal soul.

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Can you see the problem here? If god knew the exact outcome, what's the point to forwarn? A futile attempt to change the outcome that he knew he couldn't change? Or a public stunt to save his face?

what problem..? !

would you mind read the subsequent paragraphs in my previous post..

what prevents God to change the course of events as He wish..?

If everything was already decided by Him how anyone could expect Him that He would not change them dynamically according to the deeds of Adams (free will - again given by God).

does this thread not raise questions based on the logic that God is all-knowing and powerful..? .. or you want to stamp God either all-knowing or powerful not both..?

Future is What He decides.. if He wills not to change that it would remain the exact outcome. and if He wishes to change the future then He is free to do that.. hence He decides the outcome. At any point of time He remains both all-knowing and powerful. Yes.. God too has Free Will.. is that un-reasonable..?!

Originally posted by everneo
what problem..? !

would you mind read the subsequent paragraphs in my previous post..

what prevents God to change the course of events as He wish..?

If everything was already decided by Him how anyone could expect Him that He would not change them dynamically according to the deeds of Adams (free will - again given by God).

does this thread not raise questions based on the logic that God is all-knowing and powerful..? .. or you want to stamp God either all-knowing or powerful not both..?

Future is What He decides.. if He wills not to change that it would remain the exact outcome. and if He wishes to change the future then He is free to do that.. hence He decides the outcome. At any point of time He remains both all-knowing and powerful. Yes.. God too has Free Will.. is that un-reasonable..?! The problem is how could you call an outcome to be exact when it can dynamically change according to free will?

That's like saying I knew all the possible outcomes of the lottery. And I know the exact outcome of the next draw. However, the free will of the balls can change the exact outcome to a new one.

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
The problem is how could you call an outcome to be exact when it can dynamically change according to free will?

We have to go back to the concept of Time. Future does not exist. Its just an extrapolation of current state. If the present state just freezes there can't be any future. Saying that, expecting to know what exactly will happen in future warrants what is happening now. For an all powerful intelligent entity future could be anything as He wishes - for he could decide future, at any time in present and consider anything while deciding so. Endless possibilities are at His disposal.


That's like saying I knew all the possible outcomes of the lottery. And I know the exact outcome of the next draw. However, the free will of the balls can change the exact outcome to a new one.

coming back to lottery again..! i would not say the outcome is determined by free will of balls. they are determined by natural laws and randomness. Theists believe natural laws are constituted by God. He could intervene, if He wishes.

Thinking that reality/events as prerecorded gives an illusion that future already exists and unfolds as the Time progresses. This inturn gives an illusion that God should know the exact outcome. Intitial error leads to further error in logic. The fact is God decides the Future - by intervening He could change what would happen as per laws of nature.

"Christian and Religious Perfection"

======================

Read it..........that was really good.
And it was by Catholics too.
Amazing the amount of knowledge they had then ( about 100 years ago).
It was a different age, if you read the writings of theologans from that time, of all denominations.... you call feel the sincerity and the truth they had.....even though it was not a complete truth, for the time was not yet come for it to be known.
This is a different age. God is no longer "winking" at man's ignorance of His Word.
He has come to reveal the Word to those with a love of the truth, and send strong delusion to those who do not receive a love of the truth ....that they will belive a lie and be damned by it.

The age of the denominations are over, the "church ages" are over. This is the Bride Age. The fullness of time has come.
This is now the dispensation of the fullness of times , when He gathers together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: "what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.

Visitor,

What is a tri-unine being?

I apologize for my spelling......

A tri-une being, is to say we have three parts.
A body, a spirit, and a soul.

Our body is flesh, and this mortality shall put on immortality.
Our spirit, ...... coruption shall put on in-coruption.
A theophany or Word body, in this we know all things..
Our soul, is a seed or gene that came from God.
We are eternal and we were in Him from before the foundation of the world.
We come just now to be manifested for His glory, in this the evil day, the darkest time the world has ever know to shine forth as a light in the darkness. The sons of God.

Originally posted by TheVisitor
A tri-une being, is to say we have three
parts. A body, a spirit, and a soul.

Oh ok, I see. Thanks for the clarification. It reminds me
of Trinity (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=trinity). I guess it is all a matter of semantics. *shrugs*

The trinity doctrine is pagan because it says there are three distinct persons in one God , and a person is a personality, which makes three Gods.


The truth is not a "matter of semantics".....
There is one God the Lord Jesus Christ who has different offices.

He is God the father, a Spirit...above us.....(The Lord)
He is God the Son , who came down to die for us....(Jesus).
And He is God the Holy Ghost, who comes to be IN us....(Christ)

One God not three.

(An Aesop Fable (http://www.pacificnet.net/~johnr/cgi/aesop1.cgi?4&TruthandtheTraveler))

A WAYFARING MAN, traveling in the desert, met a woman standing
alone and terribly dejected. He inquired of her, "Who art thou?"
"My name is Truth," she replied. "And for what cause," he asked,
"have you left the city to dwell alone here in the wilderness?"
She made answer, "Because in former times, falsehood was with
few, but is now with all men."

2 Timothy 4

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

Originally posted by everneo
We have to go back to the concept of Time. Future does not exist. Its just an extrapolation of current state. If the present state just freezes there can't be any future. This is what you think and hope. It's not fact.


Saying that, expecting to know what exactly will happen in future warrants what is happening now. For an all powerful intelligent entity future could be anything as He wishes - for he could decide future, at any time in present and consider anything while deciding so. Endless possibilities are at His disposal.You had said previously that god knew the exact outcome. Now you said by expecting to know the exact future warrants what is happening now. So what you are saying is that god knew exactly A&E would fail him, and that also warranted A&E's action to actually defy god. Thanks for clearing that up!

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
This is what you think and hope. It's not fact.
That is a fact. if you think otherwise pl elaborate.


You had said previously that god knew the exact outcome.

Yes cuz He decides that.


Now you said by expecting to know the exact future warrants what is happening now.

This is part of my explanation on 'Future'. Anyway, still you can bring in God and say, as i already said, He decides what should be the future when free will of human at action at present.


So what you are saying is that god knew exactly A&E would fail him, and that also warranted A&E's action to actually defy god.

Yes, He knew exactly A&E would fail Him. But still He could change His own ruling on their fate. How..?

By warning them, He gave them an escape route - that is keeping up the trust on Him. Now, here, the situation is not as simple as we think. Its so complex that we can write a thesis / novel. The bond between creator and the created is at test. ( im lazy to type again the whole thing on this, so please read my earlier posts ). They failed and a stranger had more influence on them. Had A&E had an unwavering faith - not misusing their free will, we would not be discussing.


Thanks for clearing that up!

indeed, i hope.

Perfect is a globally dictated property, attributed to the most suited 'is' to the exacting of the collective structure of a complex whole, such as all the corresponding effected sets or functions within the continuum, in relation to the final appearance of a singularity. Perfect is also an attribute of a nomothetic existence.

Any Questions?

Any Questions?
Yes, could you please stop using your thesaurus?

Originally posted by Binary
Perfect is a globally dictated property, attributed to the most suited 'is' to the exacting of the collective structure of a complex whole, such as all the corresponding effected sets or functions within the continuum, in relation to the final appearance of a singularity. Perfect is also an attribute of a nomothetic existence.

Any Questions?
Yes, I have a question. Do you really understand what you wrote?

Yes I do understand what I wrote. I asked "Any questions?", becuase it seems that so often when I post like this that there isn't usually any replys(example:A brief approximation of a salient understanding (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21956)) to it. So I was just wondering if people even read it , or am I just on their ignore list.

Originally posted by everneo
That is a fact. if you think otherwise pl elaborate.
Yes cuz He decides that. By deciding an exact outcome on a future that does not exist and the exact outcome can still be changed by free will. Hmm.... God knows all the possiblity of future. I could claim the same thing. Just like the lottery thing, I can give out all the possible combinations. Am I all knowing?


This is part of my explanation on 'Future'. Anyway, still you can bring in God and say, as i already said, He decides what should be the future when free will of human at action at present.In other words, human free will can change god's exact prediction? Now who is guiding who?



Yes, He knew exactly A&E would fail Him. But still He could change His own ruling on their fate. How..?

By warning them, He gave them an escape route - that is keeping up the trust on Him. Now, here, the situation is not as simple as we think. Its so complex that we can write a thesis / novel. The bond between creator and the created is at test. ( im lazy to type again the whole thing on this, so please read my earlier posts ). They failed and a stranger had more influence on them. Had A&E had an unwavering faith - not misusing their free will, we would not be discussing. What you are saying is that god is not 100% sure A&E will fail. That's what the warning is for. If god is 100% sure A&E will fail, what does a warning serve? An attempt to make his 100% sure prediction fail?

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
By deciding an exact outcome on a future that does not exist and the exact outcome can still be changed by free will. Hmm.... God knows all the possiblity of future. I could claim the same thing. Just like the lottery thing, I can give out all the possible combinations. Am I all knowing?

if you can decide what should be the outcome you are all knowing about the future. don't mix-up just predicting the outcome with deciding the outcome.


In other words, human free will can change god's exact prediction? Now who is guiding who?

again its not prediction. its decision. human free will - its usage - proper or otherwise, can make God change His decision as for as the future of that human is concerned.



What you are saying is that god is not 100% sure A&E will fail. That's what the warning is for. If god is 100% sure A&E will fail, what does a warning serve? An attempt to make his 100% sure prediction fail?

No. God does not predict. He decides. Others predict what He decides. He decided to decide which one should be the outcome, their future, only based on their executing their free will, properly or otherwise. His warning is a part of the gift - the free will. He created human beings not machines. Though He is capable of deciding how they should react He restricts Himself - for He gave them 'Free Will'. Its a commitment to Himself.

And you have still not answered my question/request. What is wrong with the my statement 'Future Does not exist'. its important because you apparently have not gone thro' my posts completely there by confusing prediction with decision.

ready ref:


Thinking that reality/events as prerecorded gives an illusion that future already exists and unfolds as the Time progresses. This inturn gives an illusion that God should know the exact outcome. Intitial error leads to further error in logic. The fact is God decides the Future - by intervening He could change what would happen as per laws of nature.

Originally posted by everneo
if you can decide what should be the outcome you are all knowing about the future. don't mix-up just predicting the outcome with deciding the outcome.

again its not prediction. its decision. human free will - its usage - proper or otherwise, can make God change His decision as for as the future of that human is concerned.

No. God does not predict. He decides. Others predict what He decides. He decided to decide which one should be the outcome, their future, only based on their executing their free will, properly or otherwise. His warning is a part of the gift - the free will. He created human beings not machines. Though He is capable of deciding how they should react He restricts Himself - for He gave them 'Free Will'. Its a commitment to Himself.

And you have still not answered my question/request. What is wrong with the my statement 'Future Does not exist'. its important because you apparently have not gone thro' my posts completely there by confusing prediction with decision.Claiming "Future does not exist" is same as claiming "God does not exist". Both can't be proved otherwise. The fact that we can't travel through time now does not prove we can't tomorrow. Just like one can't find god does not prove god is fake. Why do you insist to say it's a fact instead of "I don't know?"

It doesn't matter if god predicts or decides. Since you said future does not exist and exact outcome can still change, then no exact outcome is exact. There is not difference between all the possible outcomes and the exact outcome.

You claimed "Free Will" can change god's decision on the exact outcome. Now please really think about it: what is true "free will"? Why A&E choose satan instead of god? If A&E willed to listen to satan without a reason, then god can't blame A&E. If you can show me the reason why A&E picked satan, I can show you what god did wrong in human creation.

- all the religions of the world and all of the scientific communities, all agree on the same thing: the Creation/ the Big Bang

- our time spent here on Earth is but a fleeting moments passing,
an experience of being human, living within the garden of nature

- we have been given life, yet we do not know what is ahead of us after death; another type of consciousness is possible;
everything in the universe, including every single human, all born from the creation

-we have learned much, but there is so much more to understand;
our birth is such a mystery, as we are all individuals with unique
minds and emotions; our coming into this world is such a mystery
that our passing from this world is also a mystery; the scientific
evidence is yet to be found, the possibilty is still there.

- we have been given life, perhaps we should live it as if it were
a prelude to something more wonderful

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Claiming "Future does not exist" is same as claiming "God does not exist". Both can't be proved otherwise. The fact that we can't travel through time now does not prove we can't tomorrow. Just like one can't find god does not prove god is fake. Why do you insist to say it's a fact instead of "I don't know?"

Do you mean future exists with its prefixed state, independant of the current state and waiting for us to catch up..? honestly i can't and i won't say "I don't know". unfortunately i know what i'm talking. people talk about time travel forgetting that will tear off cause-effect basis of our universe. don't believe in star trek operas. i suggest you can get experts' opinion in Pysics&Maths forum.

For the time being, to be simplistic, assume you travel to future and you could meet the great grand sons/daughters of you (or anyone whom you know) where their parents are not yet born presently..! does this make any sense to you..? as you seem to talk logically do you expect to see effect before the cause..?


It doesn't matter if god predicts or decides. Since you said future does not exist and exact outcome can still change, then no exact outcome is exact. There is not difference between all the possible outcomes and the exact outcome.

No. there is hell of difference between predicting and deciding. But anyway, as you agreed, there is no difference between all the possible outcomes and exact outcome, as it is subject to change till it happens.


You claimed "Free Will" can change god's decision on the exact outcome. Now please really think about it: what is true "free will"?

Free will, as i percieve, is a gift with which you make God decide your future accordingly. In a way we are responsible for our future.


Why A&E choose satan instead of god? If A&E willed to listen to satan without a reason, then god can't blame A&E.

Free Will puts us directly responsible for our action and its logical. Freedom comes with a cost.

Below is part of my earlier post :


This was not a case of winning in lottery. This was about losing the existing status. In such a situation, however dumb you are - not knowing how it is going to be bad - would you go by your friend's word (not to select a specific ticket) or would you follow a stranger's word to select exactly the same ticket. If you choose the later then you don't deserve to have a friend who was everything to you.

Adams went with a stranger's word despite a warning from their creator. i think, they did not deserve to be with God any more. As a matter of fact, the moment they decided against God to get the fruit , God would have decided not to intervene for they did not deserve to be prevented from going away from Him.

so i think.


If you can show me the reason why A&E picked satan, I can show you what god did wrong in human creation.

Well, since you found fault with God, you have to tell me why A&E picked satan. in addition to what i re-posted just above.

Originally posted by everneo
Do you mean future exists with its prefixed state, independant of the current state and waiting for us to catch up..? honestly i can't and i won't say "I don't know". unfortunately i know what i'm talking. people talk about time travel forgetting that will tear off cause-effect basis of our universe. don't believe in star trek operas. i suggest you can get experts' opinion in Pysics&Maths forum.Talking to yourself from the future seems impossible in a single thread time line, but quite possible in a multi-thread time line universe, or parallel universe, or multivese.


For the time being, to be simplistic, assume you travel to future and you could meet the great grand sons/daughters of you (or anyone whom you know) where their parents are not yet born presently..! does this make any sense to you..? as you seem to talk logically do you expect to see effect before the cause..?It makes sense if there are more than one time lines. And the future of one time line might just be the past of another.


No. there is hell of difference between predicting and deciding. But anyway, as you agreed, there is no difference between all the possible outcomes and exact outcome, as it is subject to change till it happens.So why do you insist god knew the exact outcome given that there are more than one outcomes and any of them can be the true one?



Free will, as i percieve, is a gift with which you make God decide your future accordingly. In a way we are responsible for our future.

Free Will puts us directly responsible for our action and its logical. Freedom comes with a cost.

Well, since you found fault with God, you have to tell me why A&E picked satan. in addition to what i re-posted just above. So you think free will means we can think for ourselves? Making a choice based on all inputs? Then what prevents us from making bad choice? The knowledge of good and evil or a warning from god? What make you think a warning from god has more weight over others? Just because it's from god? Why A&E failed to see that? Pride? What is pride? A gift from god or satan? If it's from satan, why there is no prevention to aquire it? If it's from god, then why there is a problem when exercises it? What prevents us from exercising it wrongly?

Can you see? If you can pick a reason why A&E failed god, that is god's design flaw. When we make a decision, we weight all choices base on all avaliable information. If we see no difference in benefit between choice A and B, then we just pick randomly. If this is the case for A&E, do you think god should blame them to make a bad choice? If we see an obvious benefit in A, then we will pick A. If A is indeed a good choice, then everybody is happy. Too bad A&E is not this case. If A is a bad choice, then obviously something is been over sighted. And this over sight is a major design flaw. Why? Because we missed something important yet we failed to notice. If we pick B despite the obvious benefit in A, then this is a suicidial action. That is an even worse flaw than last one. I hope A&E is not this case.

Originally posted by Binary
Perfect is a globally dictated property, attributed to the most suited 'is' to the exacting of the collective structure of a complex whole, such as all the corresponding effected sets or functions within the continuum, in relation to the final appearance of a singularity. Perfect is also an attribute of a nomothetic existence.Eschew obfuscation.

It is really difficult to tell if you have a valid point or are simply spouting nonsense. I suggest that if you are truly attempting to communicate a cogent position that you use more than two, rather abstractly worded sentences.

~Raithere

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Talking to yourself from the future seems impossible in a single thread time line, but quite possible in a multi-thread time line universe, or parallel universe, or multivese.

It makes sense if there are more than one time lines. And the future of one time line might just be the past of another.

Parallel universe, multiverses are mathematical models and their existance never proved. Time travel is a bad interpretation of these models. Different timelines don't enable time travel. They differ only in rate at which their time, 'proper time', progresses. Once again i suggest get proper meaning from experts, possibly in P&M forum. I don't know how fantasy is better than faith..!



So why do you insist god knew the exact outcome given that there are more than one outcomes and any of them can be the true one?

Which one..? The one, God ultimately decides.


So you think free will means we can think for ourselves?

Yes.


Making a choice based on all inputs? Then what prevents us from making bad choice? The knowledge of good and evil or a warning from god?

What is the difference between knowledge of Good and Knowledge of Bad..


What make you think a warning from god has more weight over others? Just because it's from god?

What/Who are the others ? in what way they are comparable to God ?



Why A&E failed to see that? Pride? What is pride? A gift from god or satan? If it's from satan, why there is no prevention to aquire it? If it's from god, then why there is a problem when exercises it? What prevents us from exercising it wrongly?

what is pride? you tell me.

So, Eating fruit is a matter of pride ? or Pride of satan ?



Can you see? If you can pick a reason why A&E failed god, that is god's design flaw.

I don't know why A&E betrayed God. You can pick any reason and blast God for that flaw in design. I have no objection. Its your opinion.


When we make a decision, we weight all choices base on all avaliable information. If we see no difference in benefit between choice A and B, then we just pick randomly. If this is the case for A&E, do you think god should blame them to make a bad choice?

I already said, A&E could not be so dumb that they could not differentiate between their creator's word and a stranger's word.


If we see an obvious benefit in A, then we will pick A. If A is indeed a good choice, then everybody is happy. Too bad A&E is not this case.

It is too bad indeed. Why they had not done this ?


If A is a bad choice, then obviously something is been over sighted. And this over sight is a major design flaw. Why? Because we missed something important yet we failed to notice.

No. A is not bad case.


If we pick B despite the obvious benefit in A, then this is a suicidial action. That is an even worse flaw than last one. I hope A&E is not this case.

Having free will it is upto them not to do any think as suicidal as screwing God's trust as well as themselves. Mind they are not as dumb as we tend to believe.

Originally posted by everneo
Parallel universe, multiverses are mathematical models and their existance never proved. Time travel is a bad interpretation of these models. Different timelines don't enable time travel. They differ only in rate at which their time, 'proper time', progresses. Once again i suggest get proper meaning from experts, possibly in P&M forum. I don't know how fantasy is better than faith..!When time lines intersect, time travel is enabled.


Which one..? The one, God ultimately decides.So before the ultimate decide, there is none?



What is the difference between knowledge of Good and Knowledge of Bad..None. And that's not the point. The point is will the fruit or the warning prevent A&E to make a bad choice?



What/Who are the others ? in what way they are comparable to God ?Satan was there. Apparently A&E thought he was comparable to god in someway.


what is pride? you tell me. I don't know. But some people claim it was pride let A&E to defy. Same as why Satan defies god. I wonder why god havn't learn the mistake from satan's betray.


So, Eating fruit is a matter of pride ? or Pride of satan ? I don't care. It's just one of the many possible reasons.



I don't know why A&E betrayed God. You can pick any reason and blast God for that flaw in design. I have no objection. Its your opinion.So the bible didn't say?




I already said, A&E could not be so dumb that they could not differentiate between their creator's word and a stranger's word. If god is the ultimate source, why A&E failed to notice that?



Having free will it is upto them not to do any think as suicidal as screwing God's trust as well as themselves. Mind they are not as dumb as we tend to believe. So if they didn't pick by random then they must picked by a reason. Why the bible didn't mention it?

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
When time lines intersect, time travel is enabled.

What it is supposed to mean..? time lines by definition are seperate and they intersect, if at all, to merge. No time travel is enabled here.


So before the ultimate decide, there is none?

This is the nth time.

Before the unltimate decision, there were lot. He is capable of deciding anything. But restricted Himself to decide the ultimate decision according to how Adams react.



None. And that's not the point. The point is will the fruit or the warning prevent A&E to make a bad choice?

I have no idea what you are asking. "fruit prevent A&E to make a bad choice"...???



Satan was there. Apparently A&E thought he was comparable to god in someway.

I don't know whether God formally introduced Satan to A&E. How a stranger can be at par with their creator. what does that 'someway' mean..?


I don't know. But some people claim it was pride let A&E to defy. Same as why Satan defies god. I wonder why god havn't learn the mistake from satan's betray.

Pride was a result of eating the fruit. That did not make them to eat the fruit / defy the God.



I don't care. It's just one of the many possible reasons.

!!!


So the bible didn't say?

Should it say.?


If god is the ultimate source, why A&E failed to notice that?

or rather why they failed to realise God is ultimate source..?



So if they didn't pick by random then they must picked by a reason. Why the bible didn't mention it?

No reason is justifiable by them. They should not have done that either by random or by reason.



Edit : typo

Originally posted by everneo
No reason is justifiable by them. They should not have done that either by random or by reason.That's very interesting. Obviously it was justified in A&E's mind. And their ability to reach that conclusion is a design flaw.

BTW, here is an interesting time travel thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6004

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Obviously it was justified in A&E's mind.

Are you sure..? that they justified their action before-hand..?


And their ability to reach that conclusion is a design flaw.


They were equally able to adhere to God's warning, not to misuse the free will / trust. In fact they had more reason to do this.



BTW, here is an interesting time travel thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6004

There are few threads in Physics&Math forum too. It would be interesting to start one there.

A genuine warning. Particularly concentrate on the posting of those, who got firm grasp on facts viz., conservation of mass/energy, casuality, difference between dilation of time and time travel, difference between travel and jumping etc - they argue against time travel on solid scientific ground. the rest are either questions or wishful thoughts or junk.