http://channelone.com/news/2005/08/24/ap_bush/

i havn't read this yet.
but i am right now.

Only republicans would organize a counter-protest against The grieving mother who asked Bush this question. What noble cause has my son died for.

Well, I did read it, and it provides no logical argument. Bush's scantly-articulated thesis is that withdrawal will weaken America, and that life is better for Iraqis as a result of our intervention. The President offers no substantiation of these statements, and reality contradicts him starkly.

This ill-conceived war weakens America. It is bleeding our volunteer Armed Forces severely, and one additional military entanglement would break it, forcing a draft. Our military is off-balance in their primary duty of protecting the USA because we are bogged down in a broken country being overrun both with domestic fighters who are at each others' throats, and with foreign insurgents who have a regional agenda that will feed and grow strong in the bloody streets of Iraq.

This war is going to get progressively uglier, precipitating severe disruption and volatization of world energy markets. The USA is fast approaching an inescapable energy crisis, and the Iraq intervention is catapulting us toward that crisis sooner than it would otherwise have occured, while we are woefully unprepared strategically, economically, politically, and psychologically for the coming impact.

We won't be solving the challenges ahead through American force of arms, because such interventions will be consistently met with continuous and unstoppable insurgency. That's simply the way that the world has evolved through colonialism, the World Wars, Vietnam, etc.

America must face these realities, and substitute aggression with innovation and negotiation on our way out of the impasse ahead- while there is still time to keep our economy intact. The first step is for the American people to realize that the Iraq intervention has been a grave mistake. This is occuring now. Then the reality must be faced that there is no unilateral, foreign, and military solution to Iraq's present disaster. US forces must leave Iraq even as Iraq collapses into civil war. This is the death of a nation, and the USA has no magic cure for this terminal illness just because the USA brought about the fatal crisis. We have set the powderkeg afire, and there will be no glory in standing close by to "handle the situation".

Yes, it's embarrassing, and that's what's keeping the Bush Administration so much at a loss for words in explaining why we must "Stay the Course". But we are delaying in facing our mistakes to our own severe detriment. We are saving face while losing our ass.

We must get our troops out, admit our grave national blunder, and get to work on damage control now, because there is a political and economic tsunami coming our way: Our American economy is tied to the world, in fact largely bankrolled by foreign investment. We had better patch up our international ties soon, because an energy crisis is about to hit us hard, and we will need all the trusting friends we can get in order to stay afloat. Our Iraq experience has proven that the world is not impressed by the effect of our Shock and Awe. Our bluff has been called, and our bluster is recognized. We will not be able to bully our way through the challenges ahead and come out on top.

Get our troops out now: New trials are coming soon for the USA, and we had best get ready.

I disagree. You break it, you buy it. If the US were to withdraw there would be a civil war. The iraqi people who've had to endure UN sanctions, an asshole leader, a bloody invasion and terriorism/insurgency would be the one who would bear the brunt of the consequences. You'd likely get a Somalia or Afghanistan type country with hundreds of thousands dead in the process.
Secondly, americans need to feel the consequences of their actions. If you pre-emptively attack a country on a fraudulent pretext without international approval, shit should happen to you. American citizens re-elected president dipshit and should reap what they sow. The US has power beyond its wisdom; a very dangerous thing. Staying the course in Iraq would make them less powerful and a bit wiser.

Having experienced some of the Lebanese Civil War, believe me I dread the shredding of Iraq, Voodoo Child. I am aghast to think of the likely numbers of innocent victims. We have broken Iraq, but we can never own it in a post-colonial world. Our presence only compounds the crisis in Iraq (that was precipitated by US military presence)- More gasoline is not going to put out this fire.

The breakup of Iraq is sadly inevitable at this point. Kurdistan (and whatever the other remnants of Iraq are called) will emerge at the other end of a bloody civil war that is going to be stoked by neighboring states. Tragically, control over the northern and southern oil reserves, and the new establishment of the ethnic identities of specific regions of Mesopotamia are going to be decided through a long, bitter war, and through the weary compromises that follow it- regardless of what American forces do in their disruptive "counterinsurgency" strikes, their unworkable nation-building, and their panicked perimeter-and-convoy defense.

The Iraqi deaths continually occuring at American hands in this period of US occupation will have no effect in defusing civil tensions in Iraq. The major effect of US intervention (the decapitation of an ethnicly fractious powder-keg country) is already fait accompli.

Dubya and his men initiated this devastating time-bomb in Iraq when they removed the distasteful, even tyrannical controls Saddam had that contained a runaway reaction of interethnic Iraqi rage. All of Dubya's horses and men they cannot defuse this bomb now ticking down to zero, because our military, logistical and political authority in Iraq is being exhausted. The Bush Administration didn't understand the country when they took us in, and they still don't understand the forces in play as the clock now runs out on Iraq's complete destruction.

Of course we can (and likely will) stay in Iraq until the meltdown is obvious to everyone everywhere. We're obviosly not quite there yet: Voodoo Child, if you are eligible to enlist in the US Army, Marines, or willing to join one or the high-paying US mercenary groups like Blackwater- then you could conceivably get over there in time to help our superheros diffuse the bomb (tick tock, que action-adventure-movie soundtrack).

But are you that sure they know what they are doing? Have events borne out what the Bush Administration had told us were the reasons and expected results of the invasion before we initiated this sequence of events? Would you bet another human life on the competence of the Bush Adminisration in sorting this out? Would you bet your own?

Step right up, for you too can lend a hand in this terrible jam for Uncle Sam. Recruiters are standing by, to help you help America Stay the Course.

Recruiters are standing by, to help you help America Stay the Course

What really bothers me is how anyone who is in a reserve untit or national gaurd unit gets screwed up the ass by this whole thing. They didnt sign up for this, they're not professional soldiers, yet they are spending extended tours of duty in Iraq, fighting a war that has nothing to do with national security, but that has to do with a Bush Administration agenda. If a another crisis were to occur, America's gonna be in big trouble...

As for withdrawing troops right now, I don't think we should. We will know when it is a absolutly hopeless situation. But that time hasnt come yet. We messed Iraq up, we have at least try to fix it.

"So sayeth Hypewaders!"

Nothing that you've said is anything but opinion and, worse, the predictions of a future of which you can't possibly know. Can your crystal ball help with predicting major storms and natural disasters, too?

From you posts, I can see that all of your "information" comes from left-wing sources and biased accounts of the world news. You're just repeating it, nothing more, and giving no basis for your views (or predictions of the future). Just talk, and mostly dire, left-wing rhetoric.

Baron Max

They didnt sign up for this, they're not professional soldiers, ...

They signed up to be members of the US Military. They were trained as "professional" soldiers. And lest you misunderstand, there are men signing up for service right now, as we speak ......and you say that they're getting "screwed up the ass"? You certainly know little or nothing about the US Military, do you? Or the good men and women who willingly serve.

Baron Max

I mean professional in the sense that they are not making careers out of the military. These folks have jobs at home and a life at home, and I have seen many accounts of their lives being very interupted, more so than they thought, because of the war. I mean come on, reserve units, RESERVE units, are spending extended tours of duty, and staying longer in Iraq than they thought they would be. I don't think it's fair to these people, and the government has done them a great diservice. I remember stories of the military calling up retired personell because we are so short on troops. I don't like it one bit. If this were a war where are nation's safety was in absolute peril, than by all means, send everyone. But I know many folks in my area who are part of the reserve or the national gaurd, and they are just swept away from their normal lives and sent over there.

I guess you could argue that they shouldn't have signed up in the first place if they didn't want to go, but I think that is making the wrong point. Do you honestly think they had any idea that they would be spending a good chunk of the year in Iraq, after the president promised a war that would take a month or two?These people are proud, couragous , and my have absolute respect. Why? Because they are fighting and fighting hard, away from their family and life back home, for their country, for something they didn't sign up to do. They are real life, unsung heroes.

Secondly, americans need to feel the consequences of their actions. If you pre-emptively attack a country on a fraudulent pretext without international approval, shit should happen to you. American citizens re-elected president dipshit and should reap what they sow. The US has power beyond its wisdom; a very dangerous thing. Staying the course in Iraq would make them less powerful and a bit wiser.


i dont understand

how are WE feeling the consequences? :rolleyes:
lets compare death counts.

well, if im not mistaken they have a WEE-BIT more casualties than us, that aren't "unarmed" civilians.

maybe ur talking about that in another view besides casulaties?
if you are, please explain.
because im confused.

how are WE feeling the consequences?
Loss of life, loss of cash, weakened armed forces, loss of soft power.

lets compare death counts.
Consequences are consequences, regardless of what you compare them to.

hypewaders:

Our presence only compounds the crisis in Iraq (that was precipitated by US military presence)- More gasoline is not going to put out this fire.
It does stop a conventional war, however, replacing it with more tolerable guerilla action and domestic terrorism. Atleast a country has some hope of surviving under these conditions.


Dubya and his men initiated this devastating time-bomb in Iraq when they removed the distasteful, even tyrannical controls Saddam had that contained a runaway reaction of interethnic Iraqi rage.
But the US is currently filling this power vacuum, if they absent themselves then a civil war will occur.


All of Dubya's horses and men they cannot defuse this bomb now ticking down to zero, because our military, logistical and political authority in Iraq is being exhausted.
Stretched, rather than exhausted. As long as the military, logistical and political authority of the Iraqi government grows at a comparable rate this might not be a problem.


Would you bet another human life on the competence of the Bush Adminisration in sorting this out? Would you bet your own?

Fuck no. I wouldn't trust Bush to fed my goldfish. He is the most incompetent, bungling, inept president the US has ever had. That being said, he doesn't have to do anything that spectacular. As long he keeps troops there and gives the Iraqi government time to mature, I'll be happy. Then, atleast there is a chance shit might not happen.

i don't understand your last sentence either.
your a confusing man :bugeye:
because most liberals, NEVER EVER wanted us to even step foot in Iraq.
and now you say you don't mind it, maybe even supporting it?
but once this is all done with, i am going to say a pain-stabbing statement that yall will critize me for the next few days
: I think you may appreciate what Bush has done, and might actually give him a smidge of credit and regret a LITTLE BIT of hatrid for him. :D

because most liberals, NEVER EVER wanted us to even step foot in Iraq.
and now you say you don't mind it, maybe even supporting it?

Those liberals were right; it was an ill-conceived, badly executed idea. However, since the clock can not be turned back, the question becomes what do you do now? If the US doesn't stay in Iraq, then there will be a civil war.

Those liberals were right; it was an ill-conceived, badly executed idea. However, since the clock can not be turned back, the question becomes what do you do now? If the US doesn't stay in Iraq, then there will be a civil war.

There is going to be a civil war no matter what we do. You think we can prevent it? You think we should? Anyone?

Loss of life, loss of cash, weakened armed forces, loss of soft power.

Consequences are consequences, regardless of what you compare them to.

hypewaders:

It does stop a conventional war, however, replacing it with more tolerable guerilla action and domestic terrorism. Atleast a country has some hope of surviving under these conditions.


But the US is currently filling this power vacuum, if they absent themselves then a civil war will occur.


Stretched, rather than exhausted. As long as the military, logistical and political authority of the Iraqi government grows at a comparable rate this might not be a problem.



Fuck no. I wouldn't trust Bush to fed my goldfish. He is the most incompetent, bungling, inept president the US has ever had. That being said, he doesn't have to do anything that spectacular. As long he keeps troops there and gives the Iraqi government time to mature, I'll be happy. Then, atleast there is a chance shit might not happen.


))))))))))ohhhhhhVOODOOchile.....i pick you out cause you choosename of one of the greatest artists of all time, Hendrix's amaaazin track......

dont know ifyou know this, but thousands of war veterens have, become disabled, and many dying and died from exposure to US and US&UK wars in Kosovo,Afghanistan, Iraq 1&2.........from DEPLETED URANIUM RADIOACTIVE POISONING, AND SO-CALLED IMMUNIZATION INJECTIONS WHERE THEY HAVE GOD KNOW WHATPUMPED INTO THEM

Kissinger said it like it is.....donthave exact quote right now, but to paraphrase: 'soldiers are worthless pieces of meat, and ar not to be concerned about".....!

would yu want YOUR son, daughter, even joining UP, never mind going, never MIND staying?

Cottontop: "You think we can prevent [an Iraqi civil war?]"

This is precisely on topic. I would like to hear from Baron Max on this.

" "So sayeth Hypewaders!" Nothing that you've said is anything but opinion and, worse, the predictions of a future of which you can't possibly know. Can your crystal ball help with predicting major storms and natural disasters, too?"

The Iraqi civil war is under way: Ethnic fighting between Iraqis has been occuring for more than 2 years. Saying that civil war is occuring in Iraq regards no crystal ball, just as no mystical vision is necessary for anyone to observe that Hurricane Katrina has hit Mississippi- access to mainstream media is all that is required to gain this level of awareness from anywhere on earth. The death and destruction of both is clearly evident to all interested observers right now. It is especially apparent to the victims.

Perhaps it is because you are not keeping up with current events that it appears to you as if I am projecting into the future. I am considering the present tragedy of Iraqis killing Iraqis in a struggle for political power, when I speak of civil war. I am speaking of Iran, Turkey, and Arabia when I speak of a regional cascade of violence that the Iraqi civil war is precipitating.

Powerless to stop them, we let hurricanes run their course, and then we lend a hand in the rescues and cleanup. If the US military can halt the civil tempest in Iraq from our present garrisons, please explain how.

Theres no solution to any prevention.
Muslims don't work together.
Shi'i and Sunnis will always be seperated.
They will never combine.
And if ever one of those takes claim to more power, there will be a civil war , like every other country in the Middle East.
I think being at war with them is the only current soultion. For the Sunnis fight with us, and the Shi'i are more on the quiet side, causing no controversy.
So maybe war wasn't bad after all.
And with the Shi'i, Afgani troops, US troops, and Great Britiain's troops... more than likely we will eliminate most Sunnis.
Therefore, giving the Shi'i more power in the democratic government.
and at that point, i belive the Sunnis will be too weak to fight all of us, again.

im not sure if its spelled "Shi'i or Shia"

Theres no solution to any prevention.
Muslims don't work together.
Shi'i and Sunnis will always be seperated.
They will never combine.
And if ever one of those takes claim to more power, there will be a civil war , like every other country in the Middle East.
I think being at war with them is the only current soultion. For the Sunnis fight with us, and the Shi'i are more on the quiet side, causing no controversy.
So maybe war wasn't bad after all.
And with the Shi'i, Afgani troops, US troops, and Great Britiain's troops... more than likely we will eliminate most Sunnis.
Therefore, giving the Shi'i more power in the democratic government.
and at that point, i belive the Sunnis will be too weak to fight all of us, again.

this is some of the most retarded drivel i have ever heard.
the bulk of your posts supply EMPIRICAL evidence to back me up.
period.

o, so you don't think that the muslims have innerconflicts with in their religion?
and, actually, may you point out the parts that were wrong?
the factual parts.
Because in the news i have been watching, Shia muslims were intemidated by the Sunnis.
but if you think different, please REPLY

War means killing,
killing means death,
death means grief
for those who are left behind

there are many aspects to life,
one of them is fear
fear is being used
as means for war

Fear means war
nerves brake
stomachs convulge
brains pop out eyes
limbs fly around

Blood is the juice of war
the color of war is red
Hatred is fueled by fear
fear is fueled by hate

War, no more war
I've been in two
and I've seen few

Greetz
Fukushi

War is fun ....sometimes scary as hell, but it's still fun. Talk about an adrenaline rush!!!

Baron Max

Terror.

Terror is struck into millions of lives a day.
No one caring. No one to defend.
America upholds the democratic way.
Helps the country to stand on their own two feet.

Liberals cry.
Saddam cries and finds a new hole.
Osama finds a new cave.
Liberals pay Osama to campaign Anti-Bush commercials in the US.

Bush takes critizism, and continues to help those in terror.
Soliders die.
They die for a reason.
Not for oil.
Not for hatrid.
Yet, to keep a country on its feet, hopefully for years and years to come.

Loyal Troops want to go to Iraq.
Loyal Troops take the risk of death.
Loyal Troops want to kill those bastards.
Killing those bastards brings bloody turbans and rags.
Terrorist dis-regard the body as nothing, and continue suicide attacks.
A family weeps in memory of an Iraqi soldier.
Soon the whole family dies, because in Iraq if your louder than a whisper you loose your genitals.

America frees a country under termoil.
America helps again.
Hippies destroy ..... once again....


SO THEN WE KILL ALL HIPPIES AND LIBERALS AND PISS ALL OVER THEIR BODIES.

Greetz Fukushi moves back to japan or germany or where ever the fuck hes from.
and no more minorites are aloud to speak in defense for other countries that deserve no defense.

soon, we get bored of killing hippies and liberals, so we go declare war on china, because we thrive to kill the innocence.... :rolleyes:

but i was serious, i would kill a hundred hippies or so in a day :D

Baron, you haven't answered me (9 posts back). I would much appreciate it if you would.

Jack4War: "Therefore, giving the Shi'i more power in the democratic government.
and at that point, i belive the Sunnis will be too weak to fight all of us, again."

Do you understand that a Shi'a-dominated government in Iraq would certainly form a close alliance with Iran? Do you understand that the rich (and presently Sunni-dominated) oil fields of Saudi Arabia have an overwhelming Shi'a majority living atop them, and that Arabia is experiencing political crisis and violence on a weekly basis? How do you jibe these factors with American interests?

The Iraqi civil war is under way: Ethnic fighting between Iraqis has been occuring for more than 2 years. ...

The USA underwent a civil war, too, and it lasted some four years and killed millions of Americans .......and look where we are today.


If the US military can halt the civil tempest in Iraq from our present garrisons, please explain how.

I'll bet "they" asked that same question of old Abe Lincoln, huh? What did he say? What did he do?

Check you crystal ball, Hype. Maybe it needs an oil change or tune-up?

Baron Max

"The USA underwent a civil war, too"
Yes, I know. Thankfully, no foreign occupation complicated it. Surely we can agree that this is an important distinction.

Question: If the US military can halt the civil tempest in Iraq from our present garrisons, please explain how.

Preliminary to answer: I'll bet "they" asked that same question of old Abe Lincoln, huh? What did he say? What did he do?"
Again, the Union was not under foreign occupation. Had we been, and had Lincoln remained as figurehead under such conditions, I doubt his legacy would be held in such reverence. Let's please leave "Honest Abe" aside as irrelevant to this question.

"Check you crystal ball, Hype."

Actually, I'm consulting you: If the US military can halt the civil tempest in Iraq from our present garrisons, please explain how.

Question: If the US military can halt the civil tempest in Iraq from our present garrisons, please explain how.

Hype, you're asking me questions that I'm not qualified to answer! ...just as you are not qualified to predict the future of half of the world! ...and yet you continue to do so. Why?

In the civil war, the USA was under foreign invasion .....the south and/or the north at various times. It's the same, Hype, whether you want to admit it or not.

Baron Max

Osama finds a new cave....Bush takes critizism, and continues to help those in terror.


"I truly am not that concerned about him [Osama bin Laden]."

Hmmm....

Alright, if there are similarities, please fill me in because I am under the impression that you are only trying to confuse the issue: What foreign military forces had invaded and wereoccupying the United States in 1861?

"Hype, you're asking me questions that I'm not qualified to answer!"
This is an opinion forum, and you are eminently qualified because you express your opinion more frequently than most. You have supported the notion of continuing US military presence in Iraq, and I am attempting to understand you. As a rational person, you must have a logical reason for believing it is beneficial in preventing an Iraqi civil war for US troops to remain there. Please explain how our troops can prevent sectarian fighting in Iraq.

kill em all with our wmd's