I have researched the topic of heaven for about thirty years, and found that it transcends all societies, but two basic views can be found, the popular one of it being a mythical ghost land, and the other a real physical place. I am not interested debating anything from a philosophical standpoint, I only want to discuss the physical aspects or features of heaven. You will be surprised at their consistancy regardless of culture or religion.

Consistancy in being a myth is about all it is.

Theres no way of telling with out observing it first hand.

As far as I know, Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) claimed to be clueless about what happens to us after we die. While he did mention reincarnation, he had no thoughts on the interim between lives. Then Yeshua bar Joseph (Jesus) seemed to be fond of making the point that heaven is ideally here and now (re: my avatar). So having cited the 'experts', I don't know that there is much more to say.

As for the consistency of the myth, sure why not? Flood myths are also very consistent. Even in Australian aboriginal or Meso-american versions -unrelated to the Middle eastern stories- they have the bit where a bird is sent out to search for dry land. Creationists and their ilk like to see this as 'proof', but the fact is that were you on a ship in a flooded world, sending out a bird to look for dry land would be a no-brainer. What else is there to do but scan the horizon?

So it is hardly surprising heaven myths are similar, most people have very similar ideas of happiness and comfort.

Yes, the myth part is consistant, and seeing would be believing, and also the proliferance of a legend is not necessarily proof thereof, even if it answers to a common need like happiness and comfort.

You are all with it, but I was not after a confirmation of whether it exists or not, but on those features which are common to the physical view of heaven.

For example, the ancient Egyptians in the earliest dynasties, talked about the afterlife as a real physical place among the stars. The constellation of Orion is often associated with the gate or path to heaven. In later dynasties the concepts of the afterlife became increasingly mythical.
Another example, some African tribes view heaven as resting on a planet among the stars.
Hebrew cultures view heaven as a restoration of paradise, like on earth at creation, so it implies a physical reality.
Heaven has many specific dimensions, again that are physical.

This thread is not about proving or disproving an idea, but as a resource for missing pieces of the puzzle, of which I have a great collection.

But how can there be missing pieces of the puzzle if it's all just wishful thinking? I appreciate that you don't want to argue the existence or non-existence of heaven, but I can't see the point in discussing 'features which are common to the physical view of heaven' if it is merely a myth and/or legend.

You don't have to accept a myth or legend to understand more of it. This thread is like finding an old artifact. If you have any info I can tell you if it has been found elsewhere, or more about it, but if not, someone else may, and that will add to the picture.

Simply, one should feel heaven like when one move from imbalance to balance(eg. towards centerline and hell like when deviating from balance/centerline in the wave example I gave elsewhere in this forum.

Kumar, I have read some of your other posts to try and understand, do you mean that the experience of heaven would be one of an optimum existance based on the path of least resistance? It is interesting that matter tries to do that naturally, and in an ideal world there would be balance and harmony. This concept is not uncommon in Islamic countries, and is also found in Buddhism.

I think Heaven is blank land scape for good people, and hell blank for evil.

I think Heaven is a blank landscape for good people, and hell a blank landscape for evil people.

Its good to start with a clean blank page.
The legend of heaven is not totally lost, but in our day and culture unknown, even by those who profess to believe in it.
So here are a few features that are common from those legends that take the physical point of view;
heaven is a (1) city which is large enough to be called a (2) country and is also called a (3) single great mountain. Sometimes it is called a place of (4) numerous mountains, and there are (5) eight mountains at the pinnacle. Another common feature mentioned is a (6) single street or main highway paved with gold. Christians often talk about streets - plural, of gold, but some south American legends only mention a single golden street. Also the original Christian Bible only mentions a single street of gold. In regards to gold, the ground in the northern sector of heaven has a high quantity of gold, exposed by the paths and rivers (legend from India) This could validate the idea of multiple streets of gold.
In regards to the myth of hell, it is as common as the legend of heaven, but generally linked with the mythical views, rather than the physical opinion. The concept of hell is also more prevalent with civilizations, and rare among tribes people who tend to equate heaven with physical realities, such as the earth, planets and stars.

Kumar, I have read some of your other posts to try and understand, do you mean that the experience of heaven would be one of an optimum existance based on the path of least resistance? It is interesting that matter tries to do that naturally, and in an ideal world there would be balance and harmony. This concept is not uncommon in Islamic countries, and is also found in Buddhism.

Hello GK, Yes ideal will be that which will be in balance and harmony eg. nature balance(when all things and beings are in perfect harmony to each other). This state bring "live & let live" whereas imbalanced state bring "might is right" & survival of fittest". It ia also relevant to state when all behave with equanimity. Moving toward this state and getting this state should make one to feel heavenly like experance.

I have researched the topic of heaven for about thirty years, and found that it transcends all societies, but two basic views can be found, the popular one of it being a mythical ghost land, and the other a real physical place. I am not interested debating anything from a philosophical standpoint, I only want to discuss the physical aspects or features of heaven. You will be surprised at their consistancy regardless of culture or religion.
The modern notion of heaven probably originated out of the Greek incursion into Persia. A syncretic exchange occurred, and the people who would become known as Christians inherited notions of heaven and hell, angels and demons, and life after death.

Prior to that, the notion of a "heaven" and "hell" were combined into a Hebrew "sheol", something similar to the Egyptian underworld.

The Persian influence had apparently taken root by the time the Jesus story had taken root. But it also seems to have traumatized the Gnostics, who blamed the Creator-God (Yahweh) for creating something as evil as Hell and the devils.

The modern notion of heaven probably originated out of the Greek incursion into Persia. A syncretic exchange occurred, and the people who would become known as Christians inherited notions of heaven and hell, angels and demons, and life after death.

Prior to that, the notion of a "heaven" and "hell" were combined into a Hebrew "sheol", something similar to the Egyptian underworld.

The Persian influence had apparently taken root by the time the Jesus story had taken root. But it also seems to have traumatized the Gnostics, who blamed the Creator-God (Yahweh) for creating something as evil as Hell and the devils.

Yes there are constant overlappings of ideas, often carried by conquering empires. This would fragment any previous ideas. Nevertheless some of the points have survived all that, and by collecting the bits, we end up with a picture. The mythical views are somewhat inconsistant except for a couple of main factors, but the physical views, we guess, had to remain identifiable. I want to give away my findings, but only as they relate to contributions.

Its good to start with a clean blank page.
The legend of heaven is not totally lost, but in our day and culture unknown, even by those who profess to believe in it.
So here are a few features that are common from those legends that take the physical point of view;
heaven is a (1) city which is large enough to be called a (2) country and is also called a (3) single great mountain. Sometimes it is called a place of (4) numerous mountains, and there are (5) eight mountains at the pinnacle. Another common feature mentioned is a (6) single street or main highway paved with gold. Christians often talk about streets - plural, of gold, but some south American legends only mention a single golden street. Also the original Christian Bible only mentions a single street of gold. In regards to gold, the ground in the northern sector of heaven has a high quantity of gold, exposed by the paths and rivers (legend from India) This could validate the idea of multiple streets of gold.
In regards to the myth of hell, it is as common as the legend of heaven, but generally linked with the mythical views, rather than the physical opinion. The concept of hell is also more prevalent with civilizations, and rare among tribes people who tend to equate heaven with physical realities, such as the earth, planets and stars.

Your a fool if you think heaven didn't long exist before the human imagination, if there so be such a place, obviously.

Prove your not sarcastic or close thread. Even if you are not sarcastic, why are we discussing something none of us have any factual evidence on except I believe it exist, and that other guy who's about to post does not believe?

Yes there are constant overlappings of ideas, often carried by conquering empires. This would fragment any previous ideas. Nevertheless some of the points have survived all that, and by collecting the bits, we end up with a picture. The mythical views are somewhat inconsistant except for a couple of main factors, but the physical views, we guess, had to remain identifiable. I want to give away my findings, but only as they relate to contributions.

Your playing with turd fragments from primordial cave-gas sniffers.

You've collected little scraps of green, yellow, round, shard, long, turd fragments, hoping to reassemble the ancient original tapestry...of a turd.

Some people collect stamps. For you, it's the scat piles outside Jerusalem and at Mathews house on the Galilee...:crazy:

I have researched the topic of heaven for about thirty years, and found that it transcends all societies, but two basic views can be found, the popular one of it being a mythical ghost land, and the other a real physical place. I am not interested debating anything from a philosophical standpoint, I only want to discuss the physical aspects or features of heaven. You will be surprised at their consistancy regardless of culture or religion.

Pretty sure heaven has good Feng Shui.

Pretty sure heaven has good Feng Shui.
Do you know of any Feng Shui that would work on a grand scale? I have a limited understanding of that practice and think it has something to do with placement for pleasing effects? I know that with real estate some people hire Feng Shui practitioners to check the house out before they buy.

Do you know of any Feng Shui that would work on a grand scale? I have a limited understanding of that practice and think it has something to do with placement for pleasing effects? I know that with real estate some people hire Feng Shui practitioners to check the house out before they buy.
Pssst! GK, I'm pretty sure spidergoat was being sarcastic. :shh:

Your a fool if you think heaven didn't long exist before the human imagination, if there so be such a place, obviously.

Prove your not sarcastic or close thread. Even if you are not sarcastic, why are we discussing something none of us have any factual evidence on except I believe it exist, and that other guy who's about to post does not believe?

You are probably not used to people discussing something without trying to moralise or convince you, particularly on this subject, because it is generally associated with religion.

This thread is just for more info on the legend, that's all.
The legend is part of history, of what people have had in their culture etc.

You indicated that you don't know much about the legend, so I gave you some commonly known details. The legend is quite wide spread - geographically and throughout all eras, and that opinion is shared by historians, anthropologists etc. You will find many publications dealing with the subject, not necessarily in religious book shops either.

Your playing with turd fragments from primordial cave-gas sniffers.

You've collected little scraps of green, yellow, round, shard, long, turd fragments, hoping to reassemble the ancient original tapestry...of a turd.

Some people collect stamps. For you, it's the scat piles outside Jerusalem and at Mathews house on the Galilee...:crazy:

Many of the pieces I came across, were no better than turds, and that depended a lot on the burial practices of a society, its survival skills and whatever empire dominated. The bits on the legend in Judaism between 400 BC and 70 AD were often exaggerated and bizarre. But before that period there was a lot of info in the Torah or remnants of it. In 70 AD Jerusalem was destroyed with most of its antiquities.

Pssst! GK, I'm pretty sure spidergoat was being sarcastic. :shh:
Psst, I think Spidey was serious. Did you get the icon I made for you?:shh:

Many of the pieces I came across, were no better than turds, and that depended a lot on the burial practices of a society, its survival skills and whatever empire dominated. The bits on the legend in Judaism between 400 BC and 70 AD were often exaggerated and bizarre. But before that period there was a lot of info in the Torah or remnants of it. In 70 AD Jerusalem was destroyed with most of its antiquities.

Cool. Since I was born twice (an attempt to delay my birth in order to reach the hospital from a distance), certain drugs allowed me to retrace my steps, so to speak. If you consider a pre-life location to mimic a post-life condition, then you might add my turd to your collection.

http://ny-image0.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.161897576.jpg

Do you know of any Feng Shui that would work on a grand scale? I have a limited understanding of that practice and think it has something to do with placement for pleasing effects? I know that with real estate some people hire Feng Shui practitioners to check the house out before they buy.

The basic premise of Feng Shui is to locate a precise ideal location for the king's palace, summer palace, traveling residences. An important factor is to have fresh air flowing from the mountains to the ocean. How and where people enter the palace.

The basic premise of Feng Shui is to locate a precise ideal location for the king's palace, summer palace, traveling residences. An important factor is to have fresh air flowing from the mountains to the ocean. How and where people enter the palace.

Thanks for that, I will show a plan to some Feng Shui masters and see what they say.
As far as the legend goes, the main palace is at the pinnacle, surrounded by a wall 3.4 meters high and wide, four entries, one to each cardinal point, with a perimeter of 6+ km. The perimeter of the bulk of heaven is just under 10,000 kms, with 12 entries. The smallest version of that is from a Mayan myth, roughly 5 km wide. Less than 5 percent of legends give any definite measurements. Jewish culture gave the most measurements, but while reading at the time they were too varied for me to make any sense.

Cool. Since I was born twice (an attempt to delay my birth in order to reach the hospital from a distance), certain drugs allowed me to retrace my steps, so to speak. If you consider a pre-life location to mimic a post-life condition, then you might add my turd to your collection.
I will, I also like free rent, as it was before we were born.

The book "The Quest for Paradise" by Ashton and Whyte is an interesting collection of heaven legends. What I found is that most people who carried these legends, seemed to only remember or tell about things that are found in this world, only bigger, better and in more abundance. Things like crystals, precious metals, food, gardens etc.

Personally I did not find those descriptions satisfactory, simply because they only reflect temporary needs and wishes, and say nothing about heaven as a place, its location, dimensions or history.

The earliest civilizations had a more literal interpretation about heaven. The Mesopotanians called the great pyramids in Giza the gate or path to heaven. Some observations show those pyramids in the arrangement of the constellation of Orion. Some Bedouins who have had little influence of the western world, still say that Nimrod in the third generation post flood, built the pyramids to get to paradise. But that is another story.

I have researched the topic of heaven for about thirty years

How have you been doing that? Have you discovered some physical or extrasensory way to actually observe heaven? Or are you talking about studying different cultures' mythical accounts of their various heavens?


and found that it transcends all societies

"Transcends all societies" how? Are you suggesting that all societies' myths about heavens are alike in some way that you believe is important?


but two basic views can be found, the popular one of it being a mythical ghost land, and the other a real physical place.

Or maybe a higher mode of non-physical consciousness, or something.


I am not interested debating anything from a philosophical standpoint, I only want to discuss the physical aspects or features of heaven. You will be surprised at their consistancy regardless of culture or religion.

Failing to address the many philosophical issues that this issue raises begs way too many questions.

You are all with it, but I was not after a confirmation of whether it exists or not, but on those features which are common to the physical view of heaven.

If you are going to be arguing (falsely in my opinion) that all cultures' myths about their various heavens describe the same physical place, then an assertion of heaven's physical reality is where you're ultimately headed with this thread, right?

Is this building up to an ancient-astronauts theory?


For example, the ancient Egyptians in the earliest dynasties, talked about the afterlife as a real physical place among the stars.

Or under the Earth.


The constellation of Orion is often associated with the gate or path to heaven.

The ancients often imagined 'the heavens' as a huge dome over the Earth. The stars were conceived as being tiny moving lights up on the dome. The Moon was a bigger light, and the Sun the King of lights. The gods were often imagined as residing on the other side of the dome somewhere and as being associated with the lights somehow.

It's a serious historical error to assume that the ancients conceived of the universe in the same way that we do today.

I"m not interested in ancient texts on heaven, I'm more interested in first hand accounts of life after death, this gives us a picture of what happens when brain death occurs and also more real info on heaven. I believe it exists however..............

some unusual things to consider still remain, for example

1. One girl died, went to heaven to meet her uncle, he said her father didn't expect her so soon and would be very upset to know she was there......... makes sense...... but........ why wouldn't he know? Is heaven someplace people don't know everything? And why would her father be UPSET over her death? If heaven exists who cares if she died and left earth?

2. One guy died and ended up in hell, after awhile he realized you have no free will in hell that's why it sucks so badly, on Earth you have choices. So....... after awhile more an angel pulls him out of hell through a portal. But why did he end up there in the first place if he was meant for heaven!?

There are more, I see on discovery channel etc. but yea those stand out as very telling.

People in heaven don't KNOW everything.
People in heaven don't always greet their loved ones, it depends on?
There is some sort of life in heaven beyond simply sitting waiting around, but what is it? What was that girls father doing in heaven that he wouldn't know of her death?

Find some more first hand accounts it should be very interesting!

Yazata,
I have only collected info on the myths and legends re heaven, in the same manner that many others have done, with the intention of being able to find consistancies in myths and legends, both in history and location, in either human interpretation or the details of the place. And also to be able to compare findings.

There are two distinct philosophies about heaven, which are a whole subject on themselves.
The two main philosophies are that heaven is accessed through death, and you live in an abstract form such as a ghost in a ghostland, or just in some sort of consciousness. The entertainment industries generally push the "ghost after death" view.
The other not so popular view is that heaven is a physical place where you have to be alive or resurrected to be there.

As far as comparing our views with those of the past, people have not changed much, we have always had a broad range of ideas, both then and now. But there have been periods, as posted by Aqueous Id, where empires would nurture one or another idea, that would have been as wide spread as the culture. Our modern ideas of heaven, particularly in the US have been formed by the miriads of religions, and there is tremendous variety. But you will find that they fall into either catergory as above.

DarksidZz,
I am interested in your research and your conclusions about near death or post death experiences, and if you find any details about heaven ie, measurements, descriptions, etc, we can compare them with contents found in legends. In regards to first hand accounts, some legends claim to be transcripts of stories told by people who have seen it in vision or trance, or claim to have been there. Most of those stories are found in religious writings. The Christian Bible contains over a thousand texts on the subject, from which many books have been written. The Koran has many references, from which come many Islamic writings, etc. Judaistic writings are prolific with such accounts, and their culture as a whole is closely related to land use or farming, so their accounts are more centred on the restoration of earth back to a future paradise.

Hey GK, interesting topic, read all the posts. Don't got any info for you, don't know anything about the physical heaven, though I do believe talking to jahovah's witnesses is a good place to get some answers. They believe in a physical heaven. So long as you show up on their door step, and not the other way around, they'd probably be happy to answer questions. don't tell them your name, and don't tell them where you live, or else you'll invite a lot more than you've bargined for. OH, and have a time line, like 15 minutes in and out and that's it.

From the tid bits I've heard, I was under the impression that heaven was actually a real place at one time.

Oh, just something that caught my attention, the dove and flood myths. You know, their was a time when man was settling the far reaches of the earth, at that time they would have had to traverse oceans and I know that they did use birds as a means to discover new lands. Jared Diamond "Guns, Germs and Steel"

I will, I also like free rent, as it was before we were born.
One likes the parts most that are manageable in size and carry the indeterminable distance...
nine months in the womb = three years under the mast = an eternity.

One likes the parts most that are manageable in size and carry the indeterminable distance...
nine months in the womb = three years under the mast = an eternity.

under the mast, when and how? interesting.

under the mast, when and how? interesting. Name of an old seafaring adventure book. It was interesting.
It had little to add to my point, but I always liked it's sound. A duration of significant time spent to "become a professional", complete the task...finish the job.

OH, my bad, I thought you were talking about the sufism 'Mast' where one is under some delusional state induced by God.

talking to jahovah's witnesses is a good place to get some answers. From the tid bits I've heard, I was under the impression that heaven was actually a real place at one time. flood myths did use birds as a means to discover new lands. Jared Diamond "Guns, Germs and Steel"
Read full quote previous above.
Yes JW's is one religion that takes the physical view, mainly from a restoration of earth point.
The legends of heaven in tribal myths, do not always indicate a permanent or a future place, but often referred to as a paradise lost. Sometimes that story is entwinned with local catastrophies, even rather than the flood and the loss of the old world, so in many cases I did not take their stories on board as specifically relating to the topic. And Jared Diamond - very revealing.

One likes the parts most that are manageable in size and carry the indeterminable distance...
nine months in the womb = three years under the mast = an eternity.
I guessed under the mast was in the pram for 3 years?

I guessed under the mast was in the pram for 3 years?
Well, if your going to ask followup focus questions, the book is "Two Years Before the Mast" Author: Dana Published: 1840.
Spoiler: "Around the Horn" to California depiction is very realistically documented. The crew gets scurvy.

Well, if your going to ask followup focus questions, the book is "Two Years Before the Mast" Author: Dana Published: 1840.
Spoiler: "Around the Horn" to California depiction is very realistically documented. The crew gets scurvy.

Pardon me, I have never read that book, fairly well known in the US.
Thanks for showing me one of the first pages of your life.

I've read Two Years Before The Mast. Yes it is very realistic. The scurvy is so bad they have to get onions from another ship to save one guy's life. The gross thing about scurvy, apparently, is when you push your finger into your flesh, the flesh just stays poked in.

Most of the two years are in fact spent onshore in wild and wooly California where the sailors scrape cowhide clean. Yes, it's boring and a cheat: that's exactly what the protagonists feels.

My recommendation: if you're only going to read one book this year - read something else!

I have researched the topic of heaven for about thirty years, and found that it transcends all societies [...] You will be surprised at their consistancy regardless of culture or religion.

The universality of some concepts as possibly explained in the context of embodied cognition:

George Lakoff: "The postmodernists were right that some concepts can change over time and vary across cultures. But they were wrong in suggesting that all concepts are like that. Thousands are not. They arise around the world in culture after culture from our common embodiment. [...] Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical, based on metaphors that make use of our sensory-motor capacities to perform abstract inferences. Thus, abstract reason, on a large scale, appears to arise from the body." (A Talk with George Lakoff (http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge51.html))

- - - - - -

Concerning Lakoff's take on embodied cognition, further extracts:

[...] This startling collection of results [in research] pointed toward the idea that mind was not disembodied - not characterizable in terms of the manipulation of meaningless symbols independent of the brain and body, that is, independent of the sensory-motor system and our functioning in the world. Mind instead is embodied, not in the trivial sense of being implementable in a brain, but in the crucial sense that conceptual structure and the mechanisms of reason arise ultimately and are shaped by from the sensory-motor system of the brain and body. [...] There is a huge body of work supporting this view.

[...] Colors and color categories are not "out there" in the world [...] Color concepts and color-based inferences are thus structured by our bodies and brains.

Basic-level categories are structured in terms of gestalt perception, mental imagery, and motor schemas. In this way the body and the sensory-motor system of the brain enters centrally into our conceptual systems.

Spatial relations concepts in languages around the world (e.g, in, through, around in English, sini in Mixtec, mux in Cora, and so on) are composed of the same primitive "image-schemas", that is, schematic mental images. These, in turn, appear to arise from the structure of visual and motor systems. This forms the basis of an explanation of how we can fit language and reasoning to vision and movement.

Aspectual concepts (which characterize the structure of events) appear to arise from neural structures for motor control.

Categories make use of prototypes of many sorts to reason about the categories as a whole. Those prototypes are characterized partly in terms of sensory-motor information.

Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical, based on metaphors that make use of our sensory-motor capacities to perform abstract inferences. Thus, abstract reason, on a large scale, appears to arise from the body.

These are the results most striking to me. They require us to recognize the role of the body and brain in human reason and language. They thus run contrary to any notion of a disembodied mind. It was for such reasons that I abandoned my earlier work on generative semantics and started studying how mind and language are embodied. They are among the results that have led to a second-generation of cognitive science, the cognitive science of the embodied mind.

What a timely reply, when so many philosophies have tried to separate the experience of the mind apart from the body and visa versa.
There is something about our very biology that generates what we think and how we perceive our world, and therefor we can expect many similarities across cultures and eras, as well as variety from the same source of experience.
It is very interesting where your study will lead and it will no doubt reveal a clearer understanding on our ancestors, legends and history.

The universality of some concepts as possibly explained in the context of embodied cognition:

George Lakoff: "The postmodernists were right that some concepts can change over time and vary across cultures. But they were wrong in suggesting that all concepts are like that. Thousands are not. They arise around the world in culture after culture from our common embodiment. [...] Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical, based on metaphors that make use of our sensory-motor capacities to perform abstract inferences. Thus, abstract reason, on a large scale, appears to arise from the body." ()

- - - - - -

Concerning Lakoff's take on embodied cognition, further extracts:

[...] This startling collection of results [in research] pointed toward the idea that mind was not disembodied - not characterizable in terms of the manipulation of meaningless symbols independent of the brain and body, that is, independent of the sensory-motor system and our functioning in the world. Mind instead is embodied, not in the trivial sense of being implementable in a brain, but in the crucial sense that conceptual structure and the mechanisms of reason arise ultimately and are shaped by from the sensory-motor system of the brain and body. [...] There is a huge body of work supporting this view.

[...] Colors and color categories are not "out there" in the world [...] Color concepts and color-based inferences are thus structured by our bodies and brains.

Basic-level categories are structured in terms of gestalt perception, mental imagery, and motor schemas. In this way the body and the sensory-motor system of the brain enters centrally into our conceptual systems.

Spatial relations concepts in languages around the world (e.g, in, through, around in English, sini in Mixtec, mux in Cora, and so on) are composed of the same primitive "image-schemas", that is, schematic mental images. These, in turn, appear to arise from the structure of visual and motor systems. This forms the basis of an explanation of how we can fit language and reasoning to vision and movement.

Aspectual concepts (which characterize the structure of events) appear to arise from neural structures for motor control.

Categories make use of prototypes of many sorts to reason about the categories as a whole. Those prototypes are characterized partly in terms of sensory-motor information.

Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical, based on metaphors that make use of our sensory-motor capacities to perform abstract inferences. Thus, abstract reason, on a large scale, appears to arise from the body.

These are the results most striking to me. They require us to recognize the role of the body and brain in human reason and language. They thus run contrary to any notion of a disembodied mind. It was for such reasons that I abandoned my earlier work on generative semantics and started studying how mind and language are embodied. They are among the results that have led to a second-generation of cognitive science, the cognitive science of the embodied mind.

Interesting...

[QUOTE=Yazata;2949811
The ancients often imagined 'the heavens' as a huge dome over the Earth. The stars were conceived as being tiny moving lights up on the dome. The Moon was a bigger light, and the Sun the King of lights. The gods were often imagined as residing on the other side of the dome somewhere and as being associated with the lights somehow. It's a serious historical error to assume that the ancients conceived of the universe in the same way that we do today.[/QUOTE]

Quite right, and even in recent history people had those thoughts about the heavens.

But in studying history, I have found the distribution of knowledge takes on the same patterns as today.

It is just my opinion, that the majority are happy to go along with whatever is fed to them, and there are pockets of people in a location or period of time that are prepared to push the envelope of discovery, and not always with due reward. Some of the concepts introduced by these have survived, giving us evidence that although the majority were happy with the simple, others were very knowledgeable.

Some of these records show that the word "heaven" was ascribed to our solar system displayed in our sky. The word "heavens" - plural, applied to stars with their individual planetary systems or spaces. The heaven where God could be met, was called the "heaven of heavens," or the capital of heavens (stars). This heaven contains about 100 planets, and I have yet to find out how many suns are in this system.

The city called heaven lies on one of these 100 planets, which is slightly larger than earth. Its traditional name means "elder sister."

But in studying history, I have found the distribution of knowledge takes on the same patterns as today. It is just my opinion, that the majority are happy to go along with whatever is fed to them,
that would be us...


and there are pockets of people in a location or period of time that are prepared to push the envelope of discovery, and not always with due reward.
...and that would be you?


Some of the concepts introduced by these have survived, giving us evidence that although the majority were happy with the simple, others were very knowledgeable.
we are simple (ignorant), you are knowledgeable?


Some of these records show that the word "heaven" was ascribed to our solar system displayed in our sky.
really? you don't suppose that would have anything to do with the fact that "sky" and "heaven" are one and the same word in Latin - caelis



The word "heavens" - plural, applied to stars with their individual planetary systems or spaces. The heaven where God could be met, was called the "heaven of heavens," or the capital of heavens (stars). This heaven contains about 100 planets, and I have yet to find out how many suns are in this system.
and what are we being fed now?


The city called heaven lies on one of these 100 planets, which is slightly larger than earth. Its traditional name means "elder sister."
What tradition is that? If you want to know the history and etymology from the actual tradition that coined the word, you should refer its founder, the Catholic Church. Here's their take on the subject:


Heaven (Anglo-Saxon heofon, O.S. hevan and himil, originally himin) corresponds to the Gothic himin-s. Both heaven and himil are formed from himin by a regular change of consonants: heaven, by changing m before n into v; and himil, by changing n of the unaccented ending into l. Some derive heaven from the root ham, "to cover" (cf. the Gothic ham-ôn and the German Hem-d). According to this derivation heaven would be conceived as the roof of the world. Others trace a connection between himin (heaven) and home; according to this view, which seems to be the more probable, heaven would be the abode of the Godhead. The Latin coelum (koilon, a vault) is derived by many from the root of celare "to cover, to conceal" (coelum, "ceiling" "roof of the world"). Others, however think it is connected with the Germanic himin. The Greek ouranos is probably derived from the root var, which also connotes the idea of covering. The Hebrew name for heaven is thought to be derived from a word meaning "on high"; accordingly, heaven would designate the upper region of the world.

In the Holy Bible the term heaven denotes, in the first place, the blue firmament, or the region of the clouds that pass along the sky. Genesis 1:20, speaks of the birds "under the firmament of heaven". In other passages it denotes the region of the stars that shine in the sky. Furthermore heaven is spoken of as the dwelling of God; for, although God is omnipresent, He manifests Himself in a special manner in the light and grandeur of the firmament. Heaven also is the abode of the angels; for they are constantly with God and see His face. With God in heaven are likewise the souls of the just (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 5:3, 12). In Ephesians 4:8 sq., we are told that Christ conducted to heaven the patriarchs who had been in limbo (limbus patrum). Thus the term heaven has come to designate both the happiness and the abode of just in the next life.

No sister, no city...just the same traditional view commonly seen in all the art and literature for nearly 2000 years.

In the 4th century, the ascension of Jesus into heaven involves climbing, not blasting off:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Reidersche_Tafel_c_400_AD.jpg/180px-Reidersche_Tafel_c_400_AD.jpg

6th century: wings and clouds.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/RabulaGospelsFol13vAscension.jpg/180px-RabulaGospelsFol13vAscension.jpg

and the better known 16th Michelangelo Sistine Chapel panorama, esp. the Creation of Adam. It's all about sky, floating, flying, etc. But no sister, and no exoplanets, no city either.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6Nhgrp367weXvyWQAdFzgyLtE724nk OZ0jEZRxjEYdKjUs5zF

It seems odd to refer to an extremely old tradition as if the people who created and followed it were being misled. What does that even mean? Tradition is simply what they thought, believed, talked, wrote, sang, painted, carved, sculpted, and sermonized about. That's about as objective as you can get in the field of history.

Gerhard Kemmerer, you may want to talk to Mormons on the matter of God being in the heaven of heavens. I know they believe that God lives in another solar system on another planet. Something similar to what you've described.

that would be us...


...and that would be you?


we are simple (ignorant), you are knowledgeable?


really? you don't suppose that would have anything to do with the fact that "sky" and "heaven" are one and the same word in Latin - caelis


and what are we being fed now? .

No, I was not referring to you, but about people in all ages, and the general pattern of social learning. It is not a derogatory statement about common people who are the backbone of society. And I don't include myself as an independent thinker, but more a common collector of anothers.

Thanks for the quote from a traditional source, although such explanations by the church were written as general guidelines, which did not necessarily reflect what some individuals were studying in their institutions. Remember how keen they were at "extracting" knowledge from scientists and researchers. And here we find that latin is not the oldest language by any means, and that the Catholic church is not the only source of knowledge, even though it reigned for over a thousand years.
The term elder sister is used in Judaistic writings, and appears in allegories about heaven and earth.

Gerhard Kemmerer, you may want to talk to Mormons on the matter of God being in the heaven of heavens. I know they believe that God lives in another solar system on another planet. Something similar to what you've described.

Quite right, I have found that they have customised many traditional beliefs like quoted above, to make them more attractive and modern.
Not too many religions 'humanise' God to be in particular place.

Only man tells God.

A few references indicate the size of heaven, but the Christian Bible which includes Jewish traditions, has the most detail so far as the physical view is concerned.

This helped me to find many contexts where the opinions of other peoples and tribes fell into place. But this also puzzled me because the majority of modern Christians have spiritualised heaven away until it is a ghost land.
But the founders of many modern churches, like the reformers, believed in and taught a literal heaven. This is even evident in the markings on grave stones, with sentences like "Awaiting the blessed resurrection," "Sleeping until Christ returns," etc.

One reason people dismiss the dimensions given in the last book of the Bible, is that the city is as high as it is wide, measuring about 375 miles wide and high. But the error occurred when they reduced its original size, because it was too big for the conservatives. The size is given as 12,000 furlongs in length and breadth, and it lies square with equal height.
They took that measurement and made it the perimeter, reducing the front to a quarter of its described size.

I found that when you take the literal size and put it on a planet roughly the size of earth, that the angle of incline drops down to less than 25 degrees.
The measurement of height is also taken from a single standing point from the corner of the city, along the profile of the City or Mountain. Also the city is built into the planet by a valley created for it, one that has lifted valleys all around to reduce the incline almost to zero in some places. This explains why heaven can be a level city, or a giant mountain at the same time without contradiction. The diagonal size of heaven is as wide as our moon.

A few references indicate the size of heaven, but the Christian Bible which includes Jewish traditions, has the most detail so far as the physical view is concerned.

This helped me to find many contexts where the opinions of other peoples and tribes fell into place. But this also puzzled me because the majority of modern Christians have spiritualised heaven away until it is a ghost land.
But the founders of many modern churches, like the reformers, believed in and taught a literal heaven. This is even evident in the markings on grave stones, with sentences like "Awaiting the blessed resurrection," "Sleeping until Christ returns," etc.

One reason people dismiss the dimensions given in the last book of the Bible, is that the city is as high as it is wide, measuring about 375 miles wide and high. But the error occurred when they reduced its original size, because it was too big for the conservatives. The size is given as 12,000 furlongs in length and breadth, and it lies square with equal height.
They took that measurement and made it the perimeter, reducing the front to a quarter of its described size.

I found that when you take the literal size and put it on a planet roughly the size of earth, that the angle of incline drops down to less than 25 degrees.
The measurement of height is also taken from a single standing point from the corner of the city, along the profile of the City or Mountain. Also the city is built into the planet by a valley created for it, one that has lifted valleys all around to reduce the incline almost to zero in some places. This explains why heaven can be a level city, or a giant mountain at the same time without contradiction. The diagonal size of heaven is as wide as our moon.

Using the asteroids abundant resource materials, a "modular mountain" complex is envisioned to be constructed to reach heights outside the atmospheric orbits, for ease of orbital transition, and to increase the Earth's "habitable spaces", while remaining anchored, or fixed to Earth's foundation.

This is like an old dream transfixed in the ancient human psyche.
http://long18th.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/monkey-stick_1207558i.jpg?w=500

Using the asteroids abundant resource materials, a "modular mountain" complex is envisioned to be constructed to reach heights outside the atmospheric orbits, for ease of orbital transition, and to increase the Earth's "habitable spaces", while remaining anchored, or fixed to Earth's foundation.

This is like an old dream transfixed in the ancient human psyche.


In archaeological findings that seems to be the case, at least in regards to the mentality of man, nothing has changed really, although I have not found the asteroid resource idea - as yet!

Cities were built around pyramids or towers, with ambitions of creating a central economic base. Tradition has it that the tower of Babel was such an attempt. From what I have gathered it was originally a couple of miles wide and supposed to have reached 3,000 ft. If it was ruined then it has not been identified as yet, because all the places claiming to be the original site are far too small.

The inhabitable space of heaven would be approximately 8,000 square miles, or about 2/3 of Africa. Some legends and scientific concepts suggest that the world before the flood or at some time was a single continent, and about five times higher than Mt Everest, which is nothing compared to heaven, but then again, the earth was supposed to be a replica of some sort.

I love the pic!

On heaven moving more into the spiritual plain, I've often wondered if science has been an influence. As more things are revealed about our natural world science easily discourages the ideas popular amongst people 2000 -1000 years ago. Such as a real physical heaven, an immortal body or rising up from death. As a consequence these ideas gradually moved away from our real world experience. Take flat earth theory, People thought the earth was flat and on a giant tortoise, they made reference to real world things to explain the world around them. Native Americans believed the wind was a spirit, so was the water, it wasn't until after, I would argue, that the idea of spirit existing in another plain began to materialize. Reincarnation is another example of real world expression.

Now the question is begged to be asked, was the real world expression just an attempt by the commoner to understand something more profound in regards to human experience? Inadvertently perpetuating real world explanation? Out of body experiences hint at a much different understanding of our reality and so does schizophrenia. Perhaps those who'd experienced out of body things were trying to explain their experiences and the common man having no point of reference materialized it. Even today, skeptics would argue that out of body experiences related to death are just that, death of the brain, because their perspectives don’t allow any other conclusion, they just assume the experience will cease.
All interesting stuff

There are a number of points you have bought up, so I can only respond to one or two, but what you are saying of interpretations about the connections between the spiritual and the physical worlds is evident across the board. The shifts in view have changed under different empires and with different tribal folk, as you mentioned. I like the reasons you give for it as well.

Out of body experiences is an unavoidable topic. Science has a number of reasonable conclusions about it, one that appeals to me is that the hormones or chemicals in the brain can continue communication and construction of thought patterns even after the direct electric functions have ceased.

The chemicals can continue to shift and change by 'habit.'
Once the electrical part kicks back in, you get the reconstruction of those changes. But the person had no conscious living while gone.

The question is, how come we hear of accurate descriptions of events that transpired while the patient was brain dead.

There are plenty of examples of how people can do amazing mind and body feats, sometimes after brain damage, when the electrical side has been held back or hampered. It seems like there are supportive chemical processes that work for the subconscious which can give outstanding results.
Some of those abilities are demonstrated by sevants. One of them is to be able to reconstruct past events and even future events with unusual accuracy, just by a few clues.
Another ability is to be able to understand and construct an aerial view of your own city without ever flying over it, and so on.

Virtual reality effects mimicking flight, dream-states, mapping, surreal role-playing environs, perspectives exclusive to enhancing aspects of individuality....would effect such dynamics, if such was actually present, as has been discussed here. The computer may be adjusting more than can be analyzed at this time...

Virtual reality effects mimicking flight, dream-states, mapping, surreal role-playing environs, perspectives exclusive to enhancing aspects of individuality....would effect such dynamics, if such was actually present, as has been discussed here. The computer may be adjusting more than can be analyzed at this time...

It is interesting how artificial intelligence can only be 'real' if variables are thrown into the equations, and that the outcome is not a feared chaos but a workable world, as if the very mathematics of nature centre on freedom and not constraint. It seems like our conscious minds limit that rescource for some reason, or maybe we only take what we need.

The computer may be adjusting more than can be analyzed at this time...

Conscience experience is not reducible so we can't apply the scientific method. Instead we rely on what else is happening in the brain and draw out tentative connections in the name of science.

There are a number of points you have bought up, so I can only respond to one or two, but what you are saying of interpretations about the connections between the spiritual and the physical worlds is evident across the board. The shifts in view have changed under different empires and with different tribal folk, as you mentioned. I like the reasons you give for it as well.

Out of body experiences is an unavoidable topic. Science has a number of reasonable conclusions about it, one that appeals to me is that the hormones or chemicals in the brain can continue communication and construction of thought patterns even after the direct electric functions have ceased.

The chemicals can continue to shift and change by 'habit.'
Once the electrical part kicks back in, you get the reconstruction of those changes. But the person had no conscious living while gone.

The question is, how come we hear of accurate descriptions of events that transpired while the patient was brain dead.

There are plenty of examples of how people can do amazing mind and body feats, sometimes after brain damage, when the electrical side has been held back or hampered. It seems like there are supportive chemical processes that work for the subconscious which can give outstanding results.
Some of those abilities are demonstrated by savants. One of them is to be able to reconstruct past events and even future events with unusual accuracy, just by a few clues.
Another ability is to be able to understand and construct an aerial view of your own city without ever flying over it, and so on.

Interesting, thank you for that post, I'd never heard about the role of chemicals on the subconscious mind that use real world examples.

On the aerial view, I'd like to learn more about that. I've only watched a documentary where a savant was able to draw, with amazing accuracy, a city's features from the air because he spent some time in a high building studying a panoramic view of the city. Then he later drew a panorama of the city. What you're suggesting is much more profound and I'd love to learn more.

I'm not finding these statements accurate, valid, authoritative, properly sourced, nor thoroughly explained.

A natural world is built on options, variables and potential. I think artificial intelligence can only be intelligent if it opens up, accepts, integrates, changes, and learns.
Computers - I haven't got a clue really!

Interesting, thank you for that post, I'd never heard about the role of chemicals on the subconscious mind that use real world examples.
What you're suggesting is much more profound and I'd love to learn more.

I know less than most people on that subject, but I had to consider it when reading out of body experiences and possible explanations for it.

I was raised that in heaven you wouldn't know anyone. That way you wouldn't be sad when you realized some friends/family weren't there. You also couldn't see earth, so you wouldn't be sad missing people, or seeing what they do. Guardian angels were never family members

I was raised that in heaven you wouldn't know anyone. That way you wouldn't be sad when you realized some friends/family weren't there. You also couldn't see earth, so you wouldn't be sad missing people, or seeing what they do. Guardian angels were never family members
I take that you think it's oblivious.

We assume personal identity is formed with time and experience, and it is who we are, so if we loose that, through some altered memory, it might as well be someone else up there.

There are some themes of heaven that teach that heaven will settle on earth in about a thousand years after earth is destroyed, and not all include that destruction, just a makeover of earth. So I guess by that, people will have to come to terms with life on earth sooner or later.

The etherical ideas of heaven go hand in hand with a disconnected mind set, and I noted that many societies in the past, butchered themselves out of existance through the aid of strange afterlife ideas.

...There are some themes of heaven that teach that heaven will settle on earth in about a thousand years after earth is destroyed, and not all include that destruction, just a makeover of earth. So I guess by that, people will have to come to terms with life on earth sooner or later.....

yep, I was raised with that thought as well. But There wasn't a 1000 yr time limit. It was just after Armageddon

yep, I was raised with that thought as well. But There wasn't a 1000 yr time limit. It was just after Armageddon

You would probably be aware of numerous versions of those events, which are put forward, mainly by Christendom.

What puzzles me is that cultures who have had no apparent contact with either Christianity or Judaism include various beliefs that match up.
For eg, the global stories of creation and the flood, and in some cases the Messiah story, some Australian natives keeping the laws of Moses, etc. Proselyting may have had something to do with it, a recent exposure likely, unless there was some common ancestory from the middle east etc. All possible.

It is interesting with tribal beliefs that their prime story is creation, which is sometimes post flood, seeing that new life "emerged from the watery chaos," but the legend of heaven is not as popular and almost always connected with world end time events, or new eras, rather than with the former.

The two philosophies of heaven - the immaterial and the material, or intangible and tangible, either demand connections with earth and related events, or not.

With the immaterial you can ghost it to heaven anytime, through the door of death unfortunately, so there are no set times for resurrections, world changes, migrations to earth or visa versa.

But with the material, it goes hand in hand with the legends of world events, creation, new eras, interventions etc. This gives the idea that heaven has a congruent history with earth, and with Divine dealings on earth, hence the need to allow heaven's jurisdictions to preside over human affairs. In other words human sacrifice is unacceptable, stealing is an offense etc.

It is easy to understand why the immaterial, places an immediate disconnection between heaven and earth, an immediate release of the expectations of Divinity. However, both views find themselves enlisted in tradition, politics and religion, especially in large societies.

A previous reply has already outlined how the Persian and Greek empires influenced entire provinces, down as far as India.
While they promoted Pagan ideas and practices, they also imbibed whatever was left of their prey, and so a mixture of beliefs survived, just as it did with the almalgamation of Christianity and Paganism through the Roman Catholic empire.

I would like to know more details of the following:
Where is the "sea of glass?" What is the colour of the jasper walls - which variety of jasper? What are the dimensions of the 12 main gates? The wall is about 90 yards thick and high or about thirty stories. What is the set up and formation of the 12 foundations? What is the layout of the reception city (minimum of 12 - 14 miles square) in relation to the main temple? The answer to the last Q will give me the answer to where the sea of glass may be. Compass directions would help, as the city lies south of the pinnacle of the mountain (of heaven).

The location of the eight mountains/hills? Seven surround one called Mt Zion, which has a temple on it, estimated to be able to hold 150,000 to 200,000people?
It is supposedly circular, has 7 main supporting pillars, twelve monuments (in gold?) around it, and fir trees in the surounding gardens reaching up to 600ft.

The reception city, the main temple, the main street, the eight mountains, the sea of glass, and a major plain with a river are all pinnacle features, that have a specific layout which can be worked out with a couple more clues.

There are three major walls, the outer as above, the pinnacle area at least 240 miles long, with four (?) gates, and the temple area wall with 4 gates.
One of those 4 is a main gate, north, or east? There are twelve suburbs (around the city?) and a market place. Dimensions given in Ezekiel last chapters, any readers of the Hebrew language would be able to help.

Aqueous Id,


The modern notion of heaven probably originated out of the Greek incursion into Persia. A syncretic exchange occurred, and the people who would become known as Christians inherited notions of heaven and hell, angels and demons, and life after death.


The ''notions'' originated long before the Christian era.
I doubt that anything originated from Greece.


Prior to that, the notion of a "heaven" and "hell" were combined into a Hebrew "sheol", something similar to the Egyptian underworld.


The ''three worlds'', upper (heavenly), middle (earthly), and lower (hellish), were known with full explanation, from at least vedic times, and is mentioned in the scriptures and commientaries. The vedic literature is famed for being the oldest recorded scripture.



The Persian influence had apparently taken root by the time the Jesus story had taken root. But it also seems to have traumatized the Gnostics, who blamed the Creator-God (Yahweh) for creating something as evil as Hell and the devils.


From the vedic perspective it is understood that these realms were created for the conditioned souls who desire to lord it. As their lust increased they become angry, because they never reached the pinnacle of their desires.
The different realms are created to house various stages of consciousness, just like a prison is created to house various types of consciousness. People who have a different understand of the law.


jan.

Aqueous Id,
The ''notions'' originated long before the Christian era.
I doubt that anything originated from Greece.

Hi Jan!

I don't think the Greeks necessarily carried Zoroastrianism from Parthia into the Levant. That's one possibility. The other is that Persians themselves began interacting culturally with their western neighbors as a direct consequence of their brief conquest by the Greeks. Since the Levant is the gateway between Greece/Rome and Persia, I am attributing Alexander's conquests to the cause of this exchange.

Greek-Persian influence is seen in the era of the Maccabees. Bear in mind the Jews had been captive in Persia, but after Alexander, a common language existed between them. I'm working from the following premises:


Like all ancient peoples, the early Hebrews believed that the dead go down into the underworld and live there a colorless existence (comp. Isa. xiv. 15-19; Ezek. xxxii. 21-30).

Cite (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12697-resurrection)


The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture . . . As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia").

Cite (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8092-immortality-of-the-soul)

Where did the Christian idea come from? A Messiah who would redeem them and pave the way to eternal life in heaven? First you need a Messiah:


"The Messiah" (with the article and not in apposition with another word) is, however, not an Old Testament expression, but occurs for the first time in apocalyptic literature. Similarly, in all probability the use of the word "Mashiaḥ" to denote the Messianic king is not found earlier than the apocalyptic literature

Cite (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/868-advent-of-messiah)


the idea of a personal Messiah is far from having that general prominence which one would, at first, be inclined to assume. Further, it has been seen how Deutero-Isaiah heralded Cyrus as the favorite of God, the hero called by God to introduce the new era of universal bliss. In like manner, no doubt, as Kampers has shown in his "Alexander der Grosse und die Idee des Weltimperiums in Prophetie und Sage," the Jewish contemporaries of Alexander the Great, dazzled by his glorious achievements, hailed him as the divinely appointed deliverer, the inaugurator of the period of universal peace promised by the Prophets
:

Not until after the fall of the Maccabean dynasty, when the despotic government of Herod the Great and his family, and the increasing tyranny of the Roman empire had made their condition ever more unbearable, did the Jews seek refuge in the hope of a personal Messiah. They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace and justice in its place. In this way their hopes became gradually centered in the Messiah.
:

It may be noted in this connection that the "Prayer for the Coming of the Messiah," as the version of it given both in the Babylonian and in the Palestinian recensions of the Shemoneh 'Esreh shows (see Nos. 14 and 15 respectively), can not have become an integral part of the daily prayers later than the time immediately following the destruction of the Temple, for in that period the "Shemoneh 'Esreh" received its present form.

Cite (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/868-advent-of-messiah#anchor6)

What influenced this change? The infusion of Zoroastrianism into Palestine is in full flower in the early Roman era:


"First, the figure of Satan, originally a servant of God, appointed by Him as His prosecutor, came more and more to resemble Ahriman, the enemy of God. Secondly, the figure of the Messiah, originally a future King of Israel who would save his people from oppression, evolved, in Deutero-Isaiah for instance, into a universal Savior very similar to the Iranian Saoshyant. Other points of comparison between Iran and Israel include the doctrine of the millennia; the Last Judgment; the heavenly book in which human actions are inscribed; the Resurrection; the final transformation of the earth; paradise on earth or in heaven; and hell." by J. Duchesne-Guillemin, University of Liege, Belgium

Cite (http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/zoroastrianism_influence.htm)

In close proximity Mithraism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries#cite_note-201) appears in Rome.


"early Christianity ... in general, resembles Mithraism in a number of respects – enough to make Christian apologists scramble to invent creative theological explanations to account for the similarities."

Cite (http://books.google.com/books?id=wMbEyeDSQQgC&printsec=frontcover&rview=1#v=onepage&q&f=false)

With all of that as pretext, I would add that Zoroastrianism, though quite old, was not operating in a vacuum. There is a common thread with Indo-Iranian beliefs, and thus the Persian Avesta and Gathas can be logically connected to the Vedas.



From the vedic perspective it is understood that these realms were created for the conditioned souls who desire to lord it. As their lust increased they become angry, because they never reached the pinnacle of their desires.
The different realms are created to house various stages of consciousness, just like a prison is created to house various types of consciousness. People who have a different understand of the law.
jan.

I haven't looked into whether the Vedas were influenced by the Persians or vice versa. But you point is well taken, these are very old beliefs, and they predate the popular notion of heaven from the late Judaic/early Christian period.

The Far Eastern religions that center around the virtual states of consciousness are remarkable in this regard. It might indicate that this world view developed after the influences that gave rise to Zoroastrianism. That's another point I haven't looked into to.

[QUOTE=Jan Ardena;
The ''notions'' originated long before the Christian era.
I doubt that anything originated from Greece.
The vedic literature is famed for being the oldest recorded scripture.
jan.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure how far back Vedic scriptures go, and there is no doubt that they may be older than Greece or Persia. However, India had not spread its influence like Greece and Persia, in fact, India became one of the provinces of Persia, and as Greece took over, so India came under their influence. This does not mean that Vedic religion was dampened or lost, but its influence in the world at that time would have been limited. The greatest contest in the world was mostly between Israel and its captors and their history reflects strong influences from Greece. The Jewish temples even began to incorporate Greek gods in symbols of animals, and celestial objects.

Your post has made me curious to know more about Vedic writings. Thanks.

Aqueous Id,



With all of that as pretext, I would add that Zoroastrianism, though quite old, was not operating in a vacuum. There is a common thread with Indo-Iranian beliefs, and thus the Persian Avesta and Gathas can be logically connected to the Vedas.



I haven't looked into whether the Vedas were influenced by the Persians or vice versa. But you point is well taken, these are very old beliefs, and they predate the popular notion of heaven from the late Judaic/early Christian period.


Hi AqueosID,
my point is that, there is nothing prior to the vedas.


The Far Eastern religions that center around the virtual states of consciousness are remarkable in this regard. It might indicate that this world view developed after the influences that gave rise to Zoroastrianism. That's another point I haven't looked into to.

People believed in God, they didn't, and still don't, need religion to convince then to believe or not believe. Even as a child growing up in the sixties, a time when modern atheism was able to take hold, I saw that people believed in God. This would be exemplified through their conservative behaviour. It was the forthcoming generations that would move away from that position, till now the west is gradually becoming disillusioned, opting to live for today by maximising the gratification of senses.

What these great souls teach, is vedic knowledge to a particular people, at a partcular time, under particular circumstances. Religions are then conctructed from them.
At first these religions are fresh, then over time they become stale. Which is why using religions to justify belief or lack of belief in God is nonsensical. The sensible, and honest thing to do, is to focus purely on the words, and actions of these great souls, and find out if they have anything in common. :).

We understand what heaven is, even if we don't regard it as heaven, and we understand what hell is. The actual places are just places where the actuality of those understandings is all in all.
In prisons, the consciousness of the place is that of a prison, a place where you will find people who broke the law. In the A category section, the level of consciousness is different than in the category where people forgot to pay their parking fines. Similarly for some, a whore house is a heavenly place, also living in a place of beautiful scenery, with a a beautiful spouse and family, a healthy income and a long life, is a heavenly place.

The actual places (heaven/hell) are different degrees of various types of consciousness. If you try and look at it from that pov, it makes more sense.

jan.

Aqueous Id,
Thanks for that well documented post.
While I collected the different views on heaven I did not make any conscious effort to see the overlapping and progressive of ideas from cultural and civil changes, and your previous contributions have also bought forward those important factors.

I am not sure how far back Vedic scriptures go, and there is no doubt that they may be older than Greece or Persia. However, India had not spread its influence like Greece and Persia, in fact, India became one of the provinces of Persia, and as Greece took over, so India came under their influence. This does not mean that Vedic religion was dampened or lost, but its influence in the world at that time would have been limited. The greatest contest in the world was mostly between Israel and its captors and their history reflects strong influences from Greece. The Jewish temples even began to incorporate Greek gods in symbols of animals, and celestial objects.

Your post has made me curious to know more about Vedic writings. Thanks.


Vedic scripture is reputedly the oldest known scriptures, as for when they were written differs according to various sources, between 2500/3000 to 5000/6000 years among scholars. Other sources claim them to have been written long before those times.

India is known by another name, ''Bharat'', and according to the puranic section of the vedas (history)), Bharat, ruled a large section (if not all) of the globe. These areas included Iran, and maybe more of the middle east. I'm not saying it is a fact, but it is a recorded history, so you can look into it for yourself.

The influence of vedic civilisation started to dampen, according to the scripture, at the onset of the new age (guna), Kali-yuga, which started approximately 5000 years ago.

jan.

Carl Jung's thesis was connected to the archetypes of collective unconscious. The archetypes of collective unconscious can be understood as unconscious firmware, based on human genetics, which define our human nature. He showed how similar symbolism and mythology can evolve in separated cultures, since the collective unconscious is common to all human and will project similar symbolism in all humans.

As an analogy, consider the space race of the 1960's. Both USA and USSR did this in top secret (isolation) from each other, yet both made it into space. There are many similarities, which to the casual observer means they were buddies sharing ideas. But in reality they were both projecting from the same unconscious factors common to humans so parallels would appear while both doing it separately.

If you look at the creative people out there, new songs appear not because someone copies another but because it is created anew. But since they use the same instruments and live at a given time we might assume copy cat influence. Just because they sing of love does not mean someone invented love and the rest copied. This is a common human experience that would appear even in a vacuum. The human connections are common and all that is needed are characters in local garb and custom.

I think the POV that all the heaven myth started in one place and were copied is misleading and is a projection of what researchers do; copy and slightly add. They assume everyone else did it this way. But people can create parallel without much external influence, especially if you are open to unconscious influence.

Relative to specific mythology, the symbols are a projection of the collective unconscious and map out the human psyche as a function of time. What is lost, retained and added as time goes on, reflects the psyche changing. One can tell much about human nature as a function of mythology.

Modern mythology involves space aliens. This is chosen since it allows projection but has more materialism credibility. It satisfies external pressures do use more sensory constraints. Aliens are scientifically possible so this helps even if these have as much proof as Thor or Zeus. The collective unconscious will continue to project, until it is conscious.

Jan,
I have only read about those sources from other authors, but never first hand, so it will be interesting.
I wanted to talk about another type of influence that was not driven by politics, and yes, India had great trade with the old empires. Very similar to Egypt's power. India was a part of a global community that existed before the Babylonian empire.

Wellwisher, What you have said is similar to CC's post. All very interesting. What you pointed out about accumulated knowledge not all from outside influences got me thinking. I guess we are a product of both collective un/consciousness and what we experience through our senses.

I have researched the topic of heaven for about thirty years, and found that it transcends all societies, but two basic views can be found, the popular one of it being a mythical ghost land, and the other a real physical place. I am not interested debating anything from a philosophical standpoint, I only want to discuss the physical aspects or features of heaven. You will be surprised at their consistancy regardless of culture or religion.

Can you share with us some of the findings of your research?

jan.

Can you share with us some of the findings of your research?

jan. What I have posted throughout the thread is an outline of the dimensions and a few basic features, is there anything in particular that you wanted to discuss? Some of the most vivid descriptions come from Indian writings. They are not afraid of colour and variety.

An interesting set of heaven symbolism is in revelations 21-2. What happens is slice of heaven descends to the earth; heavenly Jerusalem descending like a bride from heaven. Instead of heaven being in a place where the physical body cannot go, the two planes merge.

An interesting set of heaven symbolism is in revelations 21-2. What happens is a slice of heaven descends to the earth; heavenly Jerusalem descending like a bride from heaven. Instead of heaven being in a place where the physical body cannot go, the two planes merge.
The slice of heaven is what I am not certain about, does the whole mountain of 1500 miles square come down or just a portion of it? Several sources suggest that a new mountain is created for the city to settle on, some say a great plain is made first, or that a great mountain becomes a plain. See Zechariah 14:4.
The two planes merging, I have heard that happens on a smaller scale to the human body prior to entry of heaven, you get an upgrade.

Just a few bits to add,
The gates are visible from outer space, so they are not insignificant. Set in the wall that obscures the view, they reach a height of about thirty stories, or the height of the wall. The mountain falls back over the horizon like a distant planet, the summit over 1000 miles away.
The doors or gates are made of a single pearl stone or moon stone, that emits some light. Given the sample measurements in Ezekiel, they are 3 yards thick and about 20 yards wide, which would bring their total weight to well over 6000 tons.
They hang on blue glittering 'stone' hinges from a yard wide crimson frame.
On either side are pillars of gold, over three yards wide each, carved and formed into palm trees, the leaves forming the arches.
Inside the wall the arches are repeated two or three times with golden rooms 4 yards wide in between. After 30 yards or so, they give way to a reception room 50 yards square that opens the view to heaven.

Each gate is about 500 miles from the next, and has symbols, and subtle design changes and colors to represent one of the twelve tribes.
Every person who enters heaven comes under their assigned tribe. The land from the gate to the summit is their allotted country which contains a major city and villages. The land at the top is shared. Their are no boundaries as to which country you want to visit.

I don't know the criteria for tribal allotment, but the personal and new family connections would be more enduring and meaningful than on earth, simply because so many people have been disowned by their families, and many others don't have one.

We have only covered the very basics, the common features mentioned in beliefs. There are about twenty main topics and the temple is one of them. It seems to be exclusive to Israel and the Jewish people, simply referred to as "the temple" or "Holy place."

This is where the throne of God is often claimed to be in. "Often" because the throne has also been pictured in other locations, including above earth, or not in the temple. Islamic writings describe such a Holy place and or places.

According to some, the Jewish Sanctuary was a replica of the greater one in heaven, including a replica of all the furniture like the ark. The original, and possibly only, ark of the Jewish temple went missing just before the Assyrians took Jerusalem captive. All the furniture was carried into Babylon, then returned 70 years later, then stolen again by the Romans in 70 AD. But the ark is missing, and some Ethiopians claim it is hidden under their care. It has not been found as yet, and claims of finding it are false to date (June 2012).

It is interesting that temples of different faiths all over the world, including Catholicism, replicate the simple layout and placement of its furnishings.

The whole temple is the crux of all relationships between heaven and earth, and was the centre of the ancient Jewish economy. It has to be the most detailed area of heaven. A separate book could be written on it.

We have only covered the very basics, the common features mentioned in beliefs. There are about twenty main topics and the temple is one of them. It seems to be exclusive to Israel and the Jewish people, simply referred to as "the temple" or "Holy place."

This is where the throne of God is often claimed to be in. "Often" because the throne has also been pictured in other locations, including above earth, or not in the temple. Islamic writings describe such a Holy place and or places.

According to some, the Jewish Sanctuary was a replica of the greater one in heaven, including a replica of all the furniture like the ark. The original, and possibly only, ark of the Jewish temple went missing just before the Assyrians took Jerusalem captive. All the furniture was carried into Babylon, then returned 70 years later, then stolen again by the Romans in 70 AD. But the ark is missing, and some Ethiopians claim it is hidden under their care. It has not been found as yet, and claims of finding it are false to date (June 2012).

It is interesting that temples of different faiths all over the world, including Catholicism, replicate the simple layout and placement of its furnishings.

The whole temple is the crux of all relationships between heaven and earth, and was the centre of the ancient Jewish economy. It has to be the most detailed area of heaven. A separate book could be written on it.

This thread is silly. No one has a credible source.

This thread is silly. No one has a credible source.

Apart from the lack of credible sources, what do you think and why? People are a credible source, just like you.
A document has not lived life like you, a document is wall paper. You are thousands of books in one library.

Apart from the lack of credible sources, what do you think and why? People are a credible source, just like you.
A document has not lived life like you, a document is wall paper. You are thousands of books in one library.

I think its there, and I was there.

I think its there, and I was there.

Its incredible how much evidence of lifes experience is lost by the owners. But that cannot invalidate it.

Speaking about libraries, the temple has a special throne room, which must be large enough for twenty four other thrones, arranged in a square around the throne, seven on each side. Apparently these are for human beings. Here are records containing the details of every life, from the child who fell to the ground in Africa with no name, to the famous. From before birth to the last breath, every thought, experience and feeling. Every trial, every hardship and goodtime. Every word and relationship. A complete record.

Someone in an earlier post said that this whole discussion of heaven has too many implications without addressing the philosophical aspects. And they are spot on.

But I started the thread with the intention of keeping it clear of those issues, because of misapprehensions in human thought and traditions.

Having mentioned the records, I must briefly say that they are kept for the sake of the person concerned and not some bloody minded regime. What is more, you can have your record permanently edited. The whole ceremonial year of the Jewish temple service holds all the keys to that information, because its annual services are symbolic of the one time only service in heaven, which lasts for about 2000 years. That Jewish system finished when the real took over about 34 AD, it was only ever a reminder of something in the future.

Now of course, the Israelites were not the only religion to have this type of a religious system that involved a temple and related ceremonies, but others only carry part of those rituals or elements, and perversions of it, like human sacrifice.

I found it impossible to avoid this temple structure and system in heaven. But it is interesting that if heaven is involved with the affairs of men, then the dynamics of that government would be proof of its existence. Apart from that, it remains a fading legend.

You want details of the dynamics of a heavenly body? I can help with that, so can you. We can show there is a perfect system of governing.

You want details of the dynamics of a heavenly body? I can help with that, so can you. We can show there is a perfect system of governing.
I am interested, surely someone has already started a thread to continue that topic?

There are three more aspects I would like to share, the throne, misc geographical features, and its history.

The throne is white, on a sapphire blue pavement, that covers "stones of fire." Whether there is a stairway or not is uncertain, but the stones of fire can be walked up and down on. Under the throne, or beside it, is a golden ark which is said to contain writings on stone. These have never changed and never do. Going mostly by Judaism and Christianity, they are the ten laws of God.

Around the throne are four creatures about 4 yards tall, with two of three sets of wings each, they stand in a square and underneath or beside them are complex rings which are a visual representation of all cycles of action and reaction, both in the physical world and spiritual. The meaning and detail of these is very revealing of how freedom is maintained, but they also prove how impossible it is to survive retribution of violating those principles, outside of the plan of redemption. The creatures are human like, with human like hands and legs, but their heads are disguised by four faces each, with the face of a man always outward.

The throne when occupied shows an amber light or fire surrounding the Deity, Who has brass or gold coloured feet, the face as bright as the sun, and a full sphere of a rainbow in reverse order of colours, predominantly emerald. Lightning runs continuously out from the fire, and through the stones etc. The sound is that of a powerful waterfall or as said, a million voices, like in a stadium I suppose.

Under the throne on the south side is a stream of water that flows along the southern wall of the temple and out of the courtyard. It increases in volume and depth and eventually divides into four main rivers, each watering a cardinal domain. More detail of those rivers later.

I am interested, surely someone has already started a thread to continue that topic?

Got to go to work for now. I'll process some thoughts. First and foremost will be the heavenly king. It may take a while to have enough to post on, or to just begin my theory. It will;l go into the politics forum unless anyone has an objection. No religious text is to be used unless I site it as my own faith, free of any conformed church.

While studying the temple from various sources, I discovered that its outer appearance is either silver or sky blue, possibly silver reflecting the sky.
I estimate its size to be at least 2 miles long, and a third of that wide, based on the layout of its interior furnishings and the number of people/thrones in it. The footings are solid silver supporting walls up to 30 cubits/15yards thick?
The walls are made of a solid gold interior which reflects any light into infinity, like a sea of light. But the walls are multi-layered, beginning with a gold interior, then cedar, then 4 other layers, including the silver exterior. Heavily insulated?

This is all very well, and I have never been able to fathom the significance of the replica on earth, let alone anything unseen.

The Jewish temple built by Solomon, was no doubt the most magnificent building this world has ever seen.

What confounds me is a contradiction, something uncharacteristic, more so for the one in heaven, for this reason - the essence of the earthly model was the sacrificial lamb, which provided food for the priests, that's bearable, but in heaven there is no obvious sacrifice, only something wrong...

The lightning and noise in the place is not regular, but sometimes the place is quiet, and at other times, the lightning and thunder becomes so intense that the pillars and walls of the temple shake, and everyone has to leave. What has this commotion to do with the source of life and peace?

Got to go to work for now. I'll process some thoughts. First and foremost will be the heavenly king. It may take a while to have enough to post on, or to just begin my theory. It will;l go into the politics forum unless anyone has an objection. No religious text is to be used unless I site it as my own faith, free of any conformed church.

Looking forward to what you have.

Looking forward to what you have.

What are your thoughts on a global king? Is it valuable to have a man with all out power, given if it is the most able man or woman on earth? Is a king significant for our progress as a planet? Can we all be kings and queens with full power over the kingdom? What about a king of kings?

Also, what about a segregation of good, and evil? A. Is it possible? B. Is there evil to be segregated?

If good, and evil is not observed by you then explain to me a "grey" theory of natural equality.

Thoughts, please and thank you.

What are your thoughts on a global king? Is it valuable to have a man with all out power, given if it is the most able man or woman on earth? Is a king significant for our progress as a planet? Can we all be kings and queens with full power over the kingdom? What about a king of kings?

Also, what about a segregation of good, and evil? A. Is it possible? B. Is there evil to be segregated?

If good, and evil is not observed by you then explain to me a "grey" theory of natural equality.

Thoughts, please and thank you.

Did you want to start a new thread? What about in the philosophy section? Its a good question, but it involves views on law, politics, idealisms, utopianism, psychology, history etc. The topic is related to heaven, but I wanted to stick with the physical side of the legend, and I know I have stepped over that line too. I was hoping to bring this thread to a summerised closure, seeing that there is not too much info on heaven floating around - pardon the pun.

Thoughts, please and thank you.

Kingship on earth is based on power, the most testosterone, influence, money, cunning, and even ability.

But Kingship in heaven is the opposite, it is based on service, so people like the dear African slaves we imported will inherit whole cities and provinces, whereas the cruel slave master will probably not be suitable for anything. The legend has it that when the human race sits down to eat for the first time that God walks around the tables serving. It's an upside down world.

Did you want to start a new thread? What about in the philosophy section? Its a good question, but it involves views on law, politics, idealisms, utopianism, psychology, history etc. The topic is related to heaven, but I wanted to stick with the physical side of the legend, and I know I have stepped over that line too. I was hoping to bring this thread to a summerised closure, seeing that there is not too much info on heaven floating around - pardon the pun.

We can get something cooking on a heavenly body here on earth coming into existence. What about outstanding members of society come together and start a commune of our own? No rapist, thief's, etc. It wouldn't be so difficult. The only challenge is to separate the rapist who loved it, and rapist who is now suicidal because of what he's done. No one left behind!

In regards to the rivers, North American native myths talk about a better hunting ground with streams teeming with fish etc.
This idea repeats itself almost word for word, in other legends, but only generally, as with other ideas like vast plains and mountains to roam.

In the past, I missed out on information because I did not make the link with myths of the antideluvian world and legends of heaven.
In some legends the old world was one island or continent, like Atlantis I suppose, and it was a mountain higher than Everest.
Legends from Nepal and India talked about a higher mountain over Everest or other nearby heights.

The original land may have been called Eden, which had 4 rivers that watered the entire island or world.
Very rarely is the legend of heaven told without including water as an integral part. As the saying goes, "Where there's water - there's life," a necessary resource, one would not want to worry about.
The abundance of life and in particular fish is quite common, and not just in the rivers.

The only details I could pick up on the rivers was, that they exposed the type of ground beneath, they divide instead of converge, and they increase in volume towards the base of the island. Heaven is set up in the same way, with the 4 rivers to each side of the world.

A couple of references indicate that the rivers become wide enough for the other side to be out of sight, like the mouth of the Amazon river.

With 6000 miles of wall facing the hosting planet, there are probably a thousand various landscapes that deal with water. A couple of specific ones are under the wall, besides the gates and in underground streams. What about over the wall?

How have you been doing that? Have you discovered some physical or extrasensory way to actually observe heaven? Or are you talking about studying different cultures' mythical accounts of their various heavens?

"Transcends all societies" how? Are you suggesting that all societies' myths about heavens are alike in some way that you believe is important?

Or maybe a higher mode of non-physical consciousness, or something.

Failing to address the many philosophical issues that this issue raises begs way too many questions.

These questions and comments are especially applicable, if heaven has no consequence or relation to earth, or if it was just a myth.

However if heaven did exist, then the events on earth must be tied in with its history and intents, and that would have many implications.
So in bringing this thread to a close, I will give a brief overview of heavens history, but only as commonly shared by both tribal lore and religions abroad.
There are some religions which have great detail on heaven, but as the subject comes under comparative religion, it should be just that.

If you are doing your own research, you may find some of these commonalities useful.

If you are studying myths, remember that they are generally communicated through symbols, which can be unlocked by contexts and derivatives.
Most symbolic stories seem bizarre, if you take them literally. For eg, "the eight ancestors were inside a fish during a great flood and survived."
A fish survives water, like those who survived the flood in an ark, the eight ancestors were Noah, his three sons and respective wives.
Another way to unlock symbols is to draw parallels of the same event, between the accounts of different tribes or nations.

On history of heaven later.

5687

GK, try again. Im not satisfied. Leave this to God, there is yet work to be done.

I have researched the topic of heaven for about thirty years, and found that it transcends all societies, but two basic views can be found, the popular one of it being a mythical ghost land, and the other a real physical place. I am not interested debating anything from a philosophical standpoint, I only want to discuss the physical aspects or features of heaven. You will be surprised at their consistancy regardless of culture or religion.Jung calls motifs which recur in nearly every society and nearly every era archetypes. He died before genetics became a modern science. But today we would say that archetypes are instincts hard-wired into the DNA in our brains by evolution.

The origin of most instincts is obvious. For example, any animal born without the instinct to flee from a larger animal with both eyes in front of its face will not live long enough to reproduce.

The origin of the instinct to believe in supernatural phenomena is not so easy to figure out. Perhaps it provided protection in an era whose bizarre dangers we can't imagine. Or it could just be a random mutation passed down by chance through genetic drift or a genetic bottleneck.

In warm southern climates like Mesopotamia, people's impression of Heaven is a nice cool place, whereas Hell is even hotter than where they live. Northern peoples, like the Norsemen, had just the opposite legends. When they died, they wanted to finally go somewhere warm.

...archetypes are instincts hard-wired into the DNA in our brains by evolution.
The origin of most instincts is obvious. ...The origin of the instinct to believe in supernatural phenomena is not so easy to figure out...

The instincts of self preservation are certainly hard wired as you have pointed out, and you can see that the best functions were passed down, otherwise what use would they be?
The supernatural fears and hopes, are difficult to explain, because they are not basic survival instincts.

You also mentioned examples of how heaven would be imagined or taught to be a better place than the earthly experience, I guess the power of hope can also be a strong instinct to survive, and such a belief could have an impact on following generations.

Humans are continually subject to feeling vulnerable and unprotected, and the thought of a higher power would keep up the courage.

With functional instinct and inherited tendencies, we expect that the best functions should nurture life, and somehow it does not take long for us to figure it out.

As strong as self preservation is, the principles of preserving someone elses life are sometimes far stronger, and the risks can defy tremendous odds. So this winning principle, does engender the possibility of a perfect world, and hence also the belief in higher principles.

The instincts of self preservation are certainly hard wired as you have pointed out, and you can see that the best functions were passed down, otherwise what use would they be? The supernatural fears and hopes, are difficult to explain, because they are not basic survival instincts.Yes, but as I said, they could just be random mutations passed down through a genetic bottleneck or by genetic drift. This happens with physical characteristics, why not with the DNA in our brain?
You also mentioned examples of how heaven would be imagined or taught to be a better place than the earthly experience . . . .That wasn't me. The Western concept of Heaven as a place dead people go to and live in serenity is relatively new in Christianity--as is Hell. It's not in the Gospels.
Humans are continually subject to feeling vulnerable and unprotected, and the thought of a higher power would keep up the courage.Even though that "higher power" is the same one that brought them the predators, famines, bad weather, illness, infant mortality and everything else that makes them feel "vulnerable and unprotected" in the first place? Geeze humans are dumb. ;)
As strong as self preservation is, the principles of preserving someone elses life are sometimes far stronger, and the risks can defy tremendous odds. So this winning principle, does engender the possibility of a perfect world, and hence also the belief in higher principles.We are a pack-social species like wolves, dolphins, gorillas and many others. We are programmed to depend on and care for the people we've known since birth: our pack-mates. Because of our particular set of strengths and weaknesses, members of these species are more successful cooperating as a pack than they would be living solitary lives like tigers. So our instinct directs us to help our pack-mates.

Our problem is that for the past 12,000 years we have been changing our way of life almost to that of a herd-social species. In the modern world we are required to live in harmony and cooperation with anonymous strangers. This goes against our instinct. Fortunately our singularly enormous forebrain gives us the ability to override instinctive behavior with reasoned and learned behavior. We've been doing alright with this transition, but nonetheless occasionally our Inner Caveman breaks loose and does something Paleolithic, like harming or stealing from someone who is not a member of our group of close family and friends.

Civilization generally survives these little lapses, so long as they are random outbursts from individuals. But if something happens that encourages an entire community to go Paleolithic all at once, so that their leaders cannot control them, or worse yet their leaders have also lost their veneer of civilization, then we have a problem. Egged on by their Inner Cavemen, entire communities, even entire nations, can attempt to kill each other, out of a Stone Age sense that the world isn't big enough for both of them.

Which brings us back to the topic of religion. There's something about the Abrahamic religions that causes their followers to rise up in orgies of violence every few generations, attempting to wipe out followers of competing religions; even people who believe in the same God, just a different prophet. It's happening right now. The Christians, Muslims and Jews are threatening to start a Nuclear Holy War, even though they all acknowledge each other as "Children of the Book."

So my thesis is that not only is belief in the supernatural not a survival trait for our species, it is actually a threat to our survival.

...
Which brings us back to the topic of religion. There's something about the Abrahamic religions that causes their followers to rise up in orgies of violence every few generations, attempting to wipe out followers of competing religions; even people who believe in the same God, just a different prophet. It's happening right now. The Christians, Muslims and Jews are threatening to start a Nuclear Holy War, even though they all acknowledge each other as "Children of the Book."

So my thesis is that not only is belief in the supernatural not a survival trait for our species, it is actually a threat to our survival.

I get what you are saying, and pretty much saw it in your previous post, and I just wanted to quote the above as one of your key points.

I think what you are saying is that it is one thing to battle out a survival, but another thing to continue fighting when one knows better.

But our view of other conflicts is just that, and as an outsider I do not know the issues, which are certainly not as simple as differences in faiths, let alone the consquence of faith, if anything, it is the opposite workings within politics and circles of power.

However, I do not want to dismiss a treasure of knowledge about heaven, just because I may find it under a fiery dragon.

But our view of other conflicts is just that, and as an outsider I do not know the issues, which are certainly not as simple as differences in faiths, let alone the consquence of faith, if anything, it is the opposite workings within politics and circles of power.Abrahamists have been killing each other for centuries, specifically over the details of their faith. The era which we euphemistically call "the Reformation," when Christianity split into two factions, was a century of non-stop holy war. The Inquisition was part of that. So was the obliteration of both New World civilizations, including the burning of the Olmec/Maya/Aztec "heathen" libraries--although religion was not the only motivation.
However, I do not want to dismiss a treasure of knowledge about heaven, just because I may find it under a fiery dragon.I think the word you want is "lore," not knowledge. ;)

Way back towards the beginning of the thread, I asked:


How have you been doing that? Have you discovered some physical or extrasensory way to actually observe heaven? Or are you talking about studying different cultures' mythical accounts of their various heavens?

"Transcends all societies" how? Are you suggesting that all societies' myths about heavens are alike in some way that you believe is important?

Failing to address the many philosophical issues that this issue raises begs way too many questions.



These questions and comments are especially applicable, if heaven has no consequence or relation to earth, or if it was just a myth.

They are even more applicable if you are suggesting that heaven isn't "just a myth", that it literally (and physically?) exists and that its existence does have consequences for Earth.

You have been posting what appear to be exotic details about heaven's physical size and form.

But you don't tell us precisely what your sources are and how you supposedly know all these things.

Are you citing ancient texts? If so, then you need to specify which texts you're consulting and where in the texts the details about heaven were found.

Or are you obtaining some of this from your own or somebody else's mystical experiences and/or hallucinations? Or what?


However if heaven did exist, then the events on earth must be tied in with its history and intents, and that would have many implications.

Perhaps, if heaven existed.


So in bringing this thread to a close, I will give a brief overview of heavens history, but only as commonly shared by both tribal lore and religions abroad.

But most of your posts seem to be about Jewish tradition.

You haven't really addressed Buddhist heavens, for example. The Buddhists imagine many different heavens, arranged hierarchically, both form-heavens and formless-heavens. These heavens are associated with the various 'jhanas', or levels of meditation. Each heaven in effect is a meditative experience imagined as if is a mode of being.

It's true that some Buddhist texts speak of very impressive heavens with things like jewel-like trees (suggestive of LSD-style visual experiences in my opinion), but I don't recall reading about any grand structures that correspond to the visions of God's throne in early medieval Jewish merkabah mysticism.

But the thing is, the Buddhists imagine multiple heavens, from lower to higher, and the highest Buddhist heavens don't have any physical form at all (corresponding to the higher formless meditations). They aren't physical places at all, even if they are still psychological places, so to speak. Modes of consciousness. That sounds very unlike what you are writing about in your posts.


There are some religions which have great detail on heaven, but as the subject comes under comparative religion, it should be just that.

If this thread is supposed to fall under the heading of 'comparative religion', then perhaps different religions' ideas about heaven(s) should actually be stated and compared. Since each religion likely says many things about heaven(s), in many places and in many contexts, not all of it consistent, and not all of it said with the same purposes in mind, we would need to specify which texts we are quoting.


If you are studying myths, remember that they are generally communicated through symbols, which can be unlocked by contexts and derivatives.

Yet you persist in interpreting this kind of material as if it consisted of literal descriptions of what you suggest is one single physical place.

I don't know of any convincing reason to think that the many ancient heaven myths are all consistent with one another, let alone that they're all detailed descriptions of one transcendental or extraterrestrial place.

I am giving a summary of what I have collected in a life time, I could not even write a book on it.

If I am presenting the physical views of heaven, it is because that is what I have chosen to do, it does not mean that the Buddhist and other views cancel what I have bought forward. The etherical views of heaven are already prevalent, such as through the entertainment industries.

The idea of multilayered heavens is not constrained to Buddism, but found all over the world. It comes from an ancient understanding of the way that the universe exists through graduations from something eternal to the temporal. It was also once known that around every object, in particular planets and stars, was a bending of a force which produced layers of standing waves. These concepts became entwined in religion and so remarkably preserved. The modes of consciousness comes from meditation techniques that were used for other reasons that did not involve religion.

In regards to evidence from specific sources, tell me what you are reading from and we can go from there.
You may find the most details in the Christian Bible the KJV, which basically contains all the fundamental ideas of any physical heaven that reside in thousands of other fragmented sources. In a similar way that legends of the world wide flood exist in practically every culture and era known to man.
It just so happens that the Bible is the most preserved and possibly the only ancient text that has survived milleniums. Seeing that is the case, I could not avoid reading it while researching this topic.

About the jewel-like trees etc, I have heard and read that from sources out of India, China, Islamic writings and some Christian literature.

If what you said was new, I would still accept what you said on face value.
It would be in my mind for further reference. If I heard it from other sources unrelated to where you come from, that would be one reason to bring it out of the archives and take a closer look. It is just one way of accumulating info through comparison.

And of course, that collection will have my bias on it, which is that I only want to relate to something tangible like our world, and if there is something intangible, it better not be something weaker and lesser than what we have.

I came across legends of heaven while looking for ancient science and cosmology, and found out that the world we live in is made of invisible forces, but that heaven is also a product of those forces and so remains tangible.

...the burning of the Olmec/Maya/Aztec "heathen" libraries--although religion was not the only motivation.I think the word you want is "lore," not knowledge. ;)

It's a pity those records were burned (and stolen). And "lore" is applicable and sounds better!

This is my last post so far as info on heaven is concerned, because the other things I have learned about it are not found in myths, legends and the major religions.

I have not found how old heaven is, except sayings of eternity. But I wanted to know of the earliest reference to it, so far as earthlings know, and here we can only go back to the beginning of earth or its creation.

Probably before that time, about 6000 years ago, there was a war in heaven. This is a common thread in legends. They all seem to understand that the first human couple forfeited a direct connection with heaven, and attribute this to them yeilding to the fallen angel.

The only feature of heaven that reveals all dealings with earth is the temple and its services, it was designed to bring back the connection between heaven and earth. This knowledge was first given to the Jewish nation, even though it was established in the beginning and known about by several generations. The early Christians (Jews) were quite aware of it and understood more about the model in heaven than previous generations.

During the dark ages this knowledge was obliterated and replaced by a system that celebrated the mass. This offered pardon through works, but the original system based in heaven offered pardon through faith.

With the reformation, knowledge of the real system began to emerge, bringing freedom into the civil world with it.

There is a copy of the ark with the "covenant" in it on earth. It belonged to the Jewish temple, and has not been found. Apparently it will be found at a crucial time when the world needs a deciding factor. One that puts the dividing line, not on profession, but on the heart.

As far as the Christian Bible shows, the entire service in heaven was predicted in about 500 BC, when it would begin, change, and how it will end in our time. These prophecies also delineate the successive world empires, in conjunction with these events, in particular the counterfeit system of religion on earth, and its modern offsprings. So if there was any evidence for heaven, it would be if those predictions were accurate to date, and more profoundly of the present and future.

Even though almost all religions relate their heaven to the same factors, doesn't mean that they are not just based on one truth.

Even though almost all religions relate their heaven to the same factors, doesn't mean that they are not just based on one truth.

...I take it you mean that heaven factors are not based on one truth, even though there are similarities.

Absolutely, but all views eventually fall into either of two catergories, the material and the immaterial, the natural life and the immortal soul theories, respectively.

The latter is most common today, and is based on rumours or manifestations of contacting the 'spirits' of the dead. This view of an inherent never ending ghost within, is an old one that started at the beginning of the world according to traditions, both Pagan and Christian.

The ancient symbol for this immortality was the serpent biting its tail forming an everlasting circle of life, the circle of the sun. The Sun god and the Serpent are often the same god. The pagans worshiped the sun and celebrated it on the venerable day of the sun, Sunday.

During the dark ages, the Papacy adopted this symbol as well as the day into their religion, and began to enforce its observance through civil laws.
This week day and the theory of the never ending ghost, remain the two marks of its authority, the umbrella under which almost all global religions fall prostrate.

The other less popular view, is that in the garden of Eden, the tree of life gave immortality, not the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil".
This elixir of life is only available under the condition of loyalty to God through faith, and is not inherent, so comes the necessary future resurrection to life, as opposed to ghosting it.

I would be interested in opening a discussion on apocalyptic events, end time events of the world.

It is a subject that I kept coming across while researching the topic of heaven.

Today, there are several views floating around in Christendom, and I'd like to be able to compare them with tribal folk lore, and ancient ideas.

This topic is not my speciality, so it would be an adventure.

Can you share with us some of the findings of your research?

jan.

Some people have asked what I have found that may not be verified across the board of religions, myths and legends.

And I am reluctant to do so, because the information comes from sources that are not considered evidence by science and the general religious community.

However, many people like yourself like to think for themselves and are not phased by the dictates of fashionable thinking.

So I will tell as much as I can about heaven, and reveal the sources at the end of posting, to avoid an onslaught of opposition.

If you are reading this post, feel free to open up any topic or question about heaven, to get this started.

Science isn't just "fashionable". It's the only way to be reasonably sure of something in an objective way.

If there is a Heaven I will be there. :)

If there is a Heaven I will be there. :)

Depends which heaven, doesn't it? You haven't made enough virgin sacrifices to Xochiquetzal to qualify!

Depends which heaven, doesn't it? You haven't made enough virgin sacrifices to Xochiquetzal to qualify!

Loves.

Science isn't just "fashionable". It's the only way to be reasonably sure of something in an objective way.

Yes, I like the method of science,

as well as the method of faith. I like to use both legs.

When thinking is just fashionable, it's usually people hopping around on one or the other - .

If there is a Heaven I will be there. :)

...and everybody on sciforums, could not imagine it without them.

...and everybody on sciforums, could not imagine it without them.

I certainly can. I can imagine that heaven is just as the Catholics describe it in which case I will not be there, alas I am not Catholic. Same with the most of the religions, I can imagine heaven is just as they believe and I will not be allowed to pass the pearly gates because I am not a part of their particular religion.

If you have some insight on which one of the mutlitudes of religion is the right one that allows you into heaven I would appreciate the info.

I certainly can. I can imagine that heaven is just as the Catholics describe it in which case I will not be there, alas I am not Catholic. Same with the most of the religions, I can imagine heaven is just as they believe and I will not be allowed to pass the pearly gates because I am not a part of their particular religion.

If you have some insight on which one of the mutlitudes of religion is the right one that allows you into heaven I would appreciate the info.

You are, in a sense more likely to enter if you are irreligious, because religion has the typical tendency to allow someone to develop a false self. There is no need for proof here.

Many atheists who detatch themsleves from those false comforts are often left to deal with life as it comes, and so, are far more in touch with reality and far more accountable, than someone who has cocooned themselves away from life.

It makes any blatant opposition to them from the religious sector so much more offensive in the sight of God.

By not pretending to be or do something that you are not, makes one authentic, and if so honest.

If a person is authentic, then they can be known and communicated with, if a person is unauthentic, you don't know who you are talking to.
For this reason, on the day of reconning, God will say to the excluded "I am sorry I don't know YOU"
Entry to heaven is largely based on the congruency of the mind, heart and life.
You are upfront and honest, what you see is what you get.
Heaven wants people like that regardless of what progress they have or have not made.

Make your own heaven right here, by making the place a little better than it was when you got here. In the process you'll also make it nicer for everybody else, so they can all have heaven.

Make your own heaven right here, by making the place a little better than it was when you got here. In the process you'll also make it nicer for everybody else, so they can all have heaven.

To say that means you have faith.

We are born with a recognition that life is a promise, which has been betrayed through sin, and is won back through faith.

...and everybody on sciforums, could not imagine it without them.

I'm sure I will be there.

I'm sure I will be there.

If that is the case, you will be interested in the following.

Getting to heaven will take 7 days or 168 hours. That I assume is a distance of 1350 light years plus. 168 hours is the equivalent of a month of 40hour working weeks, because you don't sleep at all, don't need to.
There are many reasons for the long trip. Here are a few.
1. Billions of humans go, resurrected from all ages past, plus the living at the time of intervention.
2. They have to be organised into families and tribes etc, with the earliest ancestors in the middle of this great platform.
3. They have to be informed, recognised, and above all settled, because it is overwhelming. You can't take in an experience if it happens too quickly.
4. They are given gifts, directions and roles for the upcoming festivals which go on for about a year.
5. You know all those people who fail at the singing competitions, well now they have perfect musical skills, music and singing nearly all the way there.
6. All are met by Christ before or as they enter, and given a personalised crown.

The landing place is the "sea of glass", as I found out, (but still don't know exactly where it is), except that you can see the throne and the main garden near the temple at the same time, which is a panorama of at least 20 km wide and beyond.
From there it is about 50 km to the reception city. How do you cater for billions? The reception city is at least 17 km square, if not 4 times that.
The reason for that difference is the size of the heavenly temple compared to the replica on earth, as well as a description of a model city that was supposed to built by the Jewish nation, but which never eventuated because they were busy copying the lifestyle of surrounding nations.

You are, in a sense more likely to enter if you are irreligious, because religion has the typical tendency to allow someone to develop a false self.
Kind of ironic, since religion is exactly what you are presenting, and nothing more.


There is no need for proof here.
Right. You've established that you're religious.


Many atheists who detatch themsleves from those false comforts are often left to deal with life as it comes, and so, are far more in touch with reality and far more accountable, than someone who has cocooned themselves away from life.
Few fantasies are as far from reality as the cocoon of religion you're propounding. It's one of the main reasons atheists repudiate this stuff.


It makes any blatant opposition to them from the religious sector so much more offensive in the sight of God.

Without religion, there is no God. So this statement is pretty nonsensical.


By not pretending to be or do something that you are not, makes one authentic, and if so honest.
So why not drop the pretense and get real?


If a person is authentic, then they can be known and communicated with, if a person is unauthentic, you don't know who you are talking to.
Dishonesty makes all of that moot.


For this reason, on the day of reconning, God will say to the excluded "I am sorry I don't know YOU"
Of course not, since God is purely imaginary.


Entry to heaven is largely based on the congruency of the mind, heart and life.
It's based entirely on superstition. And on myth, most likely from the Persians, not the Jews.


You are upfront and honest, what you see is what you get.
Pot calling the kettle black. Now you can understand what obscures your vision.


Heaven wants people like that regardless of what progress they have or have not made.
Utter nonsense.


If that is the case, you will be interested in the following.

Getting to heaven will take 7 days or 168 hours. That I assume is a distance of 1350 light years plus.
No, the distance traveled by light in 7 days is 7 light-days.

c = 3 x 108 m/s

3E8 x 7 x 24 x 60 x 60 = 1.8E18 m

which is about 12,000 times the distance to the sun.

It's only 0.4% of the distance to the nearest star, Alpha Centauri.

Just outside this insignificant speck amid a trillion stars on a remote cul-de-sac in one of a trillion galaxies. Or more. Who cares. Were all going 0.4% of the way to Alpha Centauri, to get some light. (Batteries not included.)


168 hours is the equivalent of a month of 40hour working weeks, because you don't sleep at all, don't need to.
Because you'll be dead. On Earth.


Billions of humans go, resurrected from all ages past, plus the living at the time of intervention.
If this is as reliable as your math, I might actually believe it.



2. They have to be organised into families and tribes etc, with the earliest ancestors in the middle of this great platform.
3. They have to be informed, recognised, and above all settled, because it is overwhelming. You can't take in an experience if it happens too quickly.
4. They are given gifts, directions and roles for the upcoming festivals which go on for about a year.
5. You know all those people who fail at the singing competitions, well now they have perfect musical skills, music and singing nearly all the way there.
6. All are met by Christ before or as they enter, and given a personalised crown.

The landing place is the "sea of glass", as I found out, (but still don't know exactly where it is), except that you can see the throne and the main garden near the temple at the same time, which is a panorama of at least 20 km wide and beyond.
From there it is about 50 km to the reception city. How do you cater for billions? The reception city is at least 17 km square, if not 4 times that.
The reason for that difference is the size of the heavenly temple compared to the replica on earth, as well as a description of a model city that was supposed to built by the Jewish nation, but which never eventuated because they were busy copying the lifestyle of surrounding nations.
That's so nutty it's insane.

From there it is about 50 km to the reception city. How do you cater for billions?

A buffet would probably be best.

Kind of ironic, since religion is exactly what you are presenting, and nothing more.


...
That's so nutty it's insane.

The aim of this thread is to provide whatever has been said or known about heaven, from all sources that support the view of a real physical world.

Whether it is nutty of not, is irrelevant.

Up till now I have provided info that is shared in both eastern and western religions, and tribal folk lore, such as myths and legends.

But now I am providing extra info from sources mainly out of early Protestant America, and I will be revealing those sources at the end of the thread, for two reasons, those who know the details already know the sources, and there are some institutions which would be offended if they knew they did not have those other sources.

And by the way, the speed required to travel 1350+ light years in 7 days is far greater than c.

A buffet would probably be best.

The tables for the reception, are made of silver (in the golden city with the river cutting through the middle) and the cuttlery is also silver. There are as many silver goblets as people and each one is made for each individual. So every person gets to take theirs home after the reception.

It may well be both buffet or served meals, because the table is aready set and laden with food before arrival, and angels serve.
More about angels later.

Heaven has more varieties of fruit than earth has now and ever had. So you may well want to look down the table.

The table is laden with all manner of fruit, including nuts and some 'milky' grains, and there is bread and pure grape juice.

Specific fruits named, pomegranate, figs, grapes, and the fruit of the tree of life -(twelve varieties from the one tree). The bread is likely to be manna or angel's bread. It is white and apparently tastes like almond cakes.

The aim of this thread is to provide whatever has been said or known about heaven, from all sources that support the view of a real physical world.

But the only source that you've mentioned so far has been the King James Version of the Bible. And you haven't even bothered to cite any of your sources within that book.

Obviously much of what you write isn't coming from the KJV at all. For example, "Getting to heaven will take 7 days or 168 hours. That I assume is a distance of 1350 light years plus." Neither the ancient Hebrews or the 17'th century English had any conception of "light years". Your "1350 light years" just kind of slipped in there from out of your own imagination, didn't it?


Whether it is nutty of not, is irrelevant.

It's absolutely crucial to whether or not readers find your writings persuasive (or even interesting), or whether readers simply dismiss you as somebody with psychiatric difficulties.

What you need to do, and what you haven't done yet, is provide some convincing reasons why other people should take any of the stuff that you write seriously. You must realize that some of it looks pretty outlandish. You need to back up what you say if you have any hopes of rendering it credible.


Up till now I have provided info that is shared in both eastern and western religions, and tribal folk lore, such as myths and legends.

No you haven't. You've never made any attempt to do that. You say (repeatedly) that's what you're doing, but you've never done it.

You've posted all kinds of fanciful details about how you imagine heaven to be. So let's see precise references to whatever "eastern" texts that you believe corroborate those particular details. (I'm reasonably familiar with the early Buddhist writings and have never come across them there. I don't believe that they exist.)

But the only source that you've mentioned so far has been the King James Version of the Bible. And you haven't even bothered to cite any of your sources within that book.

Obviously much of what you write isn't coming from the KJV at all. For example, "Getting to heaven will take 7 days or 168 hours. That I assume is a distance of 1350 light years plus." Neither the ancient Hebrews or the 17'th century English had any conception of "light years". Your "1350 light years" just kind of slipped in there from out of your own imagination, didn't it?



It's absolutely crucial to whether or not readers find your writings persuasive (or even interesting), or whether readers simply dismiss you as somebody with psychiatric difficulties.

What you need to do, and what you haven't done yet, is provide some convincing reasons why other people should take any of the stuff that you write seriously. You must realize that some of it looks pretty outlandish. You need to back up what you say if you have any hopes of rendering it credible.



No you haven't. You've never made any attempt to do that. You say (repeatedly) that's what you're doing, but you've never done it.

You've posted all kinds of fanciful details about how you imagine heaven to be. So let's see precise references to whatever "eastern" texts that you believe corroborate those particular details. (I'm reasonably familiar with the early Buddhist writings and have never come across them there. I don't believe that they exist.)

Let's start with one item, the 7 days?

Revelation 8: 1.

The 1350 light years, that is an estimate of the distance to the nebula of Orion.

I don't know if heaven is much further beyond that.

Heaven has been associated with the constellation of Orion, and a system of planets there. Orion is mentioned directly by name, 3 times in the KJV, and about 11 times indirectly. Eg Amos 5: 8.

The tables for the reception, are made of silver (in the golden city with the river cutting through the middle) and the cuttlery is also silver. There are as many silver goblets as people and each one is made for each individual. So every person gets to take theirs home after the reception.

It may well be both buffet or served meals, because the table is aready set and laden with food before arrival, and angels serve.
More about angels later.

Heaven has more varieties of fruit than earth has now and ever had. So you may well want to look down the table.

The table is laden with all manner of fruit, including nuts and some 'milky' grains, and there is bread and pure grape juice.

Specific fruits named, pomegranate, figs, grapes, and the fruit of the tree of life -(twelve varieties from the one tree). The bread is likely to be manna or angel's bread. It is white and apparently tastes like almond cakes.

Any Black Pudding?

Any Black Pudding?

Won't be missed, let alone available from what I heard. Lucky animals.

But the only source that you've mentioned so far has been the King James Version of the Bible. And you haven't even bothered to cite any of your sources within that book.
So let's see precise references to whatever "eastern" texts that you believe corroborate those particular details. (I'm reasonably familiar with the early Buddhist writings and have never come across them there. I don't believe that they exist.)

You'll find that Buddhism has a few major branches, and also sects, and there are differences in them. The mainstream Buddhist does not believe in a heaven or after life. But as you mentioned earlier some believe in reincarnation, or levels of heaven and consciousness.

The more physical views that we can relate to are held by the Buddha Amitabha, which seems to be the older religion, if not completely separate, in parts of India, like the north where traditions seem to have been less subject to change.

The idea of reincarnations and multi layered heavens seems to be a Hindu influence.

But the Amitabha folk, hold a lot of ideas like the crystal trees, the many rivers, the lakes with golden sand, giant lotus etc. They also mention human beings with extraordinary powers and height in their paradise.

From Judea-Christian sources the original pair in the garden of Eden, were more than twice our height, and it is expected that in the new world or heaven that humans will eventually grow to that height, also with great powers.

For those of you who have followed this thread with interest, I feel privileged to to have shared some of the things about heaven, and its legends.
But you can see what has transpired and you understand why I do not want to post any more infomation that is only valuable to you.
However there are plenty of clues and pointers in this thread to do your own research and I wish you, not only the best, but to see you all one day in the place where we belong. In regards to the special references, they cannot be shared here, but I guarantee that you will come across them through Divine providence.

Let's start with one item, the 7 days?

Revelation 8: 1.

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelations%208:1&version=KJV

??

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelations%208:1&version=KJV

??

You are the only one who picked up on that. Your diligence should be rewarded.

The two Books of Daniel and Revelation unlock each other, and share one unique feature, they are filled with symbols that open up a panoramic view of earth's history from 500 BC to 3020 AD. One of the keys to unlock the prophetic time spans is that one day equals one year.

So half an hour is how long?

And how long is "about" half an hour?

It happens with the seventh seal or the last event, coinciding with the other symbols of seven, like the trumpets and candle sticks etc.
Heaven is silent because it is empty, they are bringing the human race home. They are not staying here. Its only "half an hour."

You are the only one who picked up on that. Your diligence should be rewarded.
Agreed. I accept most major credit cards (But not American Express.) I'm payable through paypal. I accepts checks, money orders and travelers checks if mailed insured- I do not accept cash or C.O.D. unless cash is presented in person.


The two Books of Daniel and Revelation unlock each other, and share one unique feature, they are filled with symbols that open up a panoramic view of earth's history from 500 BC to 3020 AD. One of the keys to unlock the prophetic time spans is that one day equals one year.

So half an hour is how long?

And how long is "about" half an hour?

It happens with the seventh seal or the last event, coinciding with the other symbols of seven, like the trumpets and candle sticks etc.
Heaven is silent because it is empty, they are bringing the human race home. They are not staying here. Its only "half an hour."
Look, you're not our mentor, ok?

Just say what you need to say. The mysticism stuff is a put off. So- how did you arrive at the conclusion that one day is equal to one year? Why did they not say, "One Year?"

So, by your reckoning, after the Rapture, the living and the dead (Who are judged to be fit for Heaven- by South Park Scripture, they must all be Mormons) are "transported"for about 7 days or {"Half an hour" in bible code} sometime after the year 3020? They are transported toward the Orion Nebula (somehow) for this seven days at which point they will arrive at "Heaven." Correct?

Agreed. I accept most major credit cards (But not American Express.) I'm payable through paypal. I accepts checks, money orders and travelers checks if mailed insured- I do not accept cash or C.O.D. unless cash is presented in person.


Look, you're not our mentor, ok?

Just say what you need to say. The mysticism stuff is a put off. So- how did you arrive at the conclusion that one day is equal to one year? Why did they not say, "One Year?"

So, by your reckoning, after the Rapture, the living and the dead (Who are judged to be fit for Heaven- by South Park Scripture, they must all be Mormons) are "transported"for about 7 days or {"Half an hour" in bible code} sometime after the year 3020? They are transported toward the Orion Nebula (somehow) for this seven days at which point they will arrive at "Heaven." Correct?

Most of those details about when heaven is occupied, moves to earth at the end of the millenium etc are in those two books.
The Bible does not give minor details up front, they are known through collective knowledge.
If you read any prophecy in the Bible it is given in literal time, for some reason only the two books are coded and filled with symbols. But those symbols are progressively explained as you read them.
The year day principle is a common one in other scripture, but the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation don't work or apply to anything if calculated ordinarily, as many churches make that error ending up with theories of the future or with no matches found in history.
Daniel chapter 2 is an introduction or overview of the whole two books, covering well over 2500 years. One of the biggest time lines is 2300 years.
Every other theme or vision after that is the same story with more detail. It has been written in such a way that only an individual in connection with God will understand. Sorry for the mentoring, it certainly is not my job.

The week trip to heaven?
The seventh seal opens at the end of the world, where humanity occupies heaven for a thousand years, then not long after 3000 AD heaven moves to earth, and the earth is renewed, and becomes the permanent home base.
You'll find that in the last 3 or 4 chapters of Revelation.
The rapture? I can't find it in there.
Any references of that day are not secretive, see Matthew 24 warning against secret versions.

The aim of this thread is to provide whatever has been said or known about heaven, from all sources that support the view of a real physical world.

Whether it is nutty of not, is irrelevant.

It's absolutely crucial to whether readers of this thread find the things that you say interesting, let alone persuasive. Right now, the contents of this thread appear to be little more than your own bizarre and rather involuted ramblings.


Up till now I have provided info that is shared in both eastern and western religions, and tribal folk lore, such as myths and legends.

That's simply false. You haven't mentioned a single source except the King James Version of the Bible. You just repeat your empty assertions that "eastern religions" all join in corroborating all of your imaginative reinterpetations of stuff that you've been lifting from the KJV. I'm reasonably familiar with the early Buddhist writings, and they don't include anything even remotely like the minute details of heaven and its layout that you've been posting.

Look, if this stuff really is supposed to be knowledge about something (whether about a real heavenly place or just about amazing and hitherto unrecognized commonalities in the world's myths) and isn't just the product of your own overheated and perhaps unhinged imagination, you need to identify all of your sources and explain the provenance of everything that you say.

It's absolutely crucial to whether readers of this thread find the things that you say interesting, let alone persuasive. Right now, the contents of this thread appear to be little more than your own bizarre and rather involuted ramblings.



That's simply false. You haven't mentioned a single source except the King James Version of the Bible. You just repeat your empty assertions that "eastern religions" all join in corroborating all of your imaginative reinterpetations of stuff that you've been lifting from the KJV. I'm reasonably familiar with the early Buddhist writings, and they don't include anything even remotely like the minute details of heaven and its layout that you've been posting.

Look, if this stuff really is supposed to be knowledge about something (whether about a real heavenly place or just about amazing and hitherto unrecognized commonalities in the world's myths) and isn't just the product of your own overheated and perhaps unhinged imagination, you need to identify all of your sources and explain the provenance of everything that you say.

I have given a summary or an overview of the things I have come across through many years, which may fit in with what many people already know.

The thread is just for those people, so it would not suit someone who has had little or no interest in heaven to start with.

It has not been, and is not my place to teach people their beliefs, that would be banned as evangelising.

If Buddhism is your interest then follow that, it does not mean you have to agree with what I have collected.

I never wrote the Bible so it is not my fault that it gives the most info about heaven.

I posted something earlier in regards to which sect of Buddhism teaches some of the things I mentioned.

It is ruled by embodied emotions; Love & Perfection, and family.