More and more often I seem to be noticing the lack of acceptance towards intellectualism and artistic expressiveness from the masses within society. People have begun to put people down for trying to pursue a job/degree that is not soully focused on annual pay. There are numerous studies on these unfortunate turn of events and it seems to explain a lot about how unhappy people are in their own lives.

Just thought I would state the obvious and see what you guys may think about what could come in the future if this stance on intellectualism continues. I found this to be a very important issue considering it effects us all and could be quite detrimental in the not-so-far future.

Oort,

Yes I agree, currently there does seem to be a downhill race towards increasing materialism. This is unfortunate, but I hope once enough people have become saturated with such things that the pendulum will swing the other way and we may eventually see an appreciation for the more subtle things in life.

Cris

Where to begin....

Most people today see it that if you're not making money then they think they are supporting you. In the rat race of today that working for the joy of what you desire seems to have been lost. Amazing what some people will put up with for the dollar...

I don't think there has been a massive swing towards materalism.

While people spend money on stupid things, and have most they really don't need. I don't think everyone is soley devoted to materials, family, and other important aspects usually hold up to the mass market community.

Curly, I hope you're right. But things do seem different these days. I guess it's true for every generation, but it just seems like we were a lot less commercial and materialistic 20 or 30 years ago, as a society. The things we needed to be happy were less complicated, and I think less selfish in nature. We used to sit around the radio, the whole family, listening to the "Mystery Theatre" and that was better than any rented video or Playstation game. As a kid, my day was made if I found a good stick to whittle with my pocket knife. What's happened!? What will it take to entertain our kids when they're adults. Better illegal drugs? Why are kids resorting to things like Ecstasy for recreation? People are essentially the same, right? It's just the circumstances that have changed, right? How can it all be so different now, and most importantly, what's next?! Will kids ever again be happy with a pair of scates or a kite for Christmas? Or laying in the freshly cut lawn watching dragonflies? Things are quite different now, but I surely don't know why.

I just read my own post and realized I got WAY off the threaad subject, my apologies.

The reason we are in a more materalistic period now is because we had the best economy for eight years in American history. So naturally we can afford better things, and more of them.

While we've just exited the nineteen nineties I think one of the labels will be the Corporate Decade. A natural follow up to the decade of excess. We see now everything being sponsored by a corporation, stadiums, TV shows, even some movies.

I think that society in all forms of multimedia are nearing the saturation point of fakness, and corporate strangleholds on everything. I predict that this decade will become an anti-corporate/money decade to a far extent. I'm not saying that my generation will become neo-hippies but I think there will be a movement away from excess and corporate sponsorship of everything.

There are only so many, Coca Cola Instant Replays a man can take.

I believe there is a swing towards materialism, but it is fueled by a growing sense of "I want to belong". I have noticed people tend to identify themselves by their possessions. In my little corner of society, people are interested in what kind of computer you use. Are you a PC or a Mac? (Those are the only two that matter. All others are snickered at.) Mac people tend to congregate in their own little corner while PC people congregate in another, each side feeling that they have at least something in common with the person standing next to them. (There was a brief segregation between Windows and Linux users, but too many cross-platform systems got out there.)

The whole Chevy/Ford thing is another fine example of people identifying themselves according to the products they buy. I can't count the number of times I have been confronted by "Ford people" just because I have a Chevy. They try to keep it friendly enough, but it soon turns into an all-out spoiling for a fight. I ususally end up telling them to grow up. I drive a Chevy just because I happened to be able to get one. I am not one of the "Chevy people". [For those of you who may not be familiar with this phenomena, Ford and Chevrolet have been rivals for the performance automobile market for years. This rivalry has filtered down to the consumers who buy their products. If you were to ask a Ford man what he has against Chevy, all he can say is "They suck." The same goes for a Chevy man. Both sides forget that Ford produced a fine car in the Mustang, and Chevy has produced a fine car in the Corvette. Both cars have their pros and cons.]

I don't know how things are in other countries, but here in America, we have an almost total lack of cultural roots. We make up for that by our consumerism. With a near collapse of the borders, Americans are desperately shoring up their identities, lest we lose our very way of life...

OKAY! ALL YOU NATIVE AMERICANS CAN STOP LAUGHING NOW!

against what amounts to a gradual invasion of our country.

Well, that's my 2 cents (US currency) worth.

Since everyone is pitching in theirs let me add my 2Ē to the growing pile. (There's gotta be bucket around here for my retirement fund)

For as long as I can remember product identification with the consumer has always been something corporate America has tried to get going. If they get you to buy their product then they think that consumer loyality will encourage you to buy their product again. Well I had a falling out with the automotive manufactures and it is still not on good grounds. Any time that junk like that of the mid and late 70's can be put on the market and it is expected that Joe Blow will be happy with that then there is a rat in the wood pile...and it has been dead for more than a few days! The auto manufactures of America lost my business and a good bit of their market share over it. It is not that I am brand loyal, I simply want a good product at a reasonable cost. And once again corporate America is getting greedy. Ever try to work on your car anymore? There isn't a lot that shade tree mechanic can actually do. Not with out more money spent in equipment than it is worth.

You can see it in the products you buy today. Ever notice that candy bar seems to get a little smaller? Or that a Coke doesn't taste like a Coke of 15 years ago?

Badfish, man you drag back some memories I hadn't remembered since who flung the clod. Thank you.

Might as well get mine in, 2 cents that is.
I just think it's that whole keeping up with the Jones's mentality.
Oxygen
I drive a 1973 AMC Javelin.:cool: :D

Well is it that big of a deal if people like the Bowtie (Chevy), or the Blue Oval (Ford). Its a matter of oppinion and likeness. American's have always identified themselves with products or companies that seem to reflect themselves. It's something interestingly unique about our society, but I don't think its neccesicarily a bad thing.

Maybe someone likes Ford cars because of a good history, A plan, or maybe they don't buy a foreign car because they belong to the UAW.

Really being a Pepsi or Coke family doesn't make you better than the other, but it does make us unique from some other countries. Do the Vietnamiese have white rice or brown rice families?

I think that you guys are getting slightly off the point. I think many of these social separations can be closed if people we're to just look at many of these situations logically (Socrates) and openminded. In order for this to actually take place there has to be a major shift in society to respect/accept intellegence (or just eachother), whether this be from the adverage man or a professor. I think one thing that binds all humans together is our mental capability. If we all gave ourselves a chance to develope this basic level of intellegance people might be able to see eye to eye again and would understand that there really isnt much of a difference between us.

All of these other minor details are just a product of illogical thinking (materialism). Many of these replys about products really could be easily solved just by asking ourselves what are the necessities of life and am I straying from the basic threads of life too much.

Chevy vs Ford, whats the difference, the people who have these arguments are normally shallow and hollow people who know nothing else. If they really thought that one was better than the other they could just converse about what the pro's and con's were of either side. Same with Mac and PC. But what it really comes down to is, its that persons choice to drive that car or to have that computer and there is no need for judgement, even thought it is very natural to do so. If it isnt the most optimum then thats their loss. If you care to educate them on why, then do so. Keep in mind these are only objects.

Call be idealistic but these are my thoughts, sorry for being so philosophical.

No problem with being philosophical. I don't claim that the segregation of people based on what they own is a valid pretext for organizing society, in fact I've riled up many a Ford owner by not taking the bait, but it's one of the ways people try to get a sense of belonging to something larger. I think this urge would be better served if they realized that they already belong to something larger. We belong not only to ourselves but to our families, our communities, our nations, our world, and to the human race as a whole. Perhaps if we took a little more pride and dignity in that, we might see an overall improvement of the human condition.

I can only afford 1 cent, and here it is:

Intellectual Rejection ? Why do you say that? There are more magazines than ever before. More books, Barnes Noble, access to every newspaper and most magazines online free except WSJ and Economist (you have to pay to get the good stuff), Cable, Satellite, 100s of channels, A lot of schools/ colleges, evening classes, art classes, organized travel tours, discovery channel, history channel, AMC, more meuseum, art fairs, fashion shows, Hollywood....

Also we have credit cards in every color (was not much 30 years ago) and hence buy now pay later, more products, innovation, restaurants, Turkish food disguised as Greek food, Maxim's in Beijing, gourmet cooks on television, PhDs in every subject, Honorary PhDs, Faux PhDs, Super Collider, Babylon 5, Galaxy Quest, Benny Hill, Farscape, Gene annotation, Proteomics, Peptides, Nanotechnology, Quantum computing, Prozac, Zoloft, Zantac, Pepto Bismol.....

Intellectual Rejection ? I don't think so. May be a little...depending on the company you keep....

Here's a reply from a "froggy" newcomer.
I had a quick glance at your discussion. Let me telle you about us Frenchies about "materialities".
Here, the question is not betwwen having a Mac or a PC, but having a computer (of ANY kind.... we don't mind).
About cars : a lot of people achieve a decent life without a driving licence (particularly in great cities like Paris when the Urban means of transport are quite good, and it would be crazy to drive a car because the town is a bit cramped, and if you have a car you might not be able to park it). Only outside great cities, it is necessary to drive : but we generally buy cars only because we have to (although, of course, more and more people are beginning to pay attention to the brand).
Well : I do hope you will accept me in your discussions, I shall tell you lots of things about our own culture -which is, as you know, slightly different from yours; (for instance, some of us have the bad habit to burn down McDonald's - or, as I can deplore as an English teacher REFUSE to learn the language of those "damned imperialists". (which doesn't prevent them from refusing to learn latin either).
Fran.

Hi Fran:

Welcome to sciforums. Personally I know, very little about french culture, even though I live in a french dominated area (Louisiana was purchased from France). The laws are screwed up here, so not much business. The excuse is it is Napoleonic law that has not been changed to 21st century.

Anyway, let us know more about French view of the world.

Hi !
What is "screwed up" ? Louisiana : more American than French. At all events, a good bargain, and Napoleon was such a fool !
Do you know "cajun" ? I love "the Creedence" and particularly "born in the Bayou". What would you like to know about us Frenchies ? I'll tell you all I can tell (if not "secret defense").
As for me : I teach your language to young "froggies"; let me know about you too.
PS : have you ever smelt or tasted a goo piece of "camembert" ?
Bye, Fran.

Personally I think that materialmism has grown and money has become more and more important to the people. Ofcourse other values have not perished compleatly, family is still wery important and everyone havenīt sold theyr ideology or sacrificed theyr happiness for money.

If you look materialism as a bad thing, then perhaps western countries have been the center of that for a long time... we have always tried to get our hand into the riches (often to the riches of others).
Europe invaded a lot of countries and exploited them. But there has also been HUGE amounts of culture in Europe and religion has been important for us as well.

So religion, culture and philosophy has been important for western countries, not just wealth and power.

But it does worry and annoy me as economy is becoming more and more important every day... technologically and economically we are growing faster and faster... but we have perhaps lost our direction and sense of moderation.

On the other hand... perhaps we are just looking at the big picture and not looking at individuals... the job of nations today is to grow and serve its citizens (atleast the job of western nations) and that is just what they are doing. Perhaps we as humans have evolved into that point, in which the nations wonīt try to direct our philosophy and values, but they let us define ourselves... but as we have taken our own point of view, we have lost unity and so altough it would seem that most of us are materialistic people, we are all thinking... but other people donīt notice that... they just notice the new car or expensive whatch etc. And so that other person thinks that all the other people are unphilosophical materialists and ask that are they the only ones thinking today. It is much easier to look at the materialistic things of people, than try to find out about theyr "inner-universe" etc.

If I may make some more groundless conclusions :) :

Perhpas when we are afraid to tap on other peoples shoulder and ask about theyr opinion on philosophical topics... we harm everyone. Because usually talking, even arguing evolves our opinions... we notice things which we havenīt noticed before etc. our own point of view doesnīt evolve... and so we all just have a few ideas or an ideology which could be a lot better, more complete, if we would only discuss with people.

BUT this doesnīt ofcourse happen always... some people do discuss and people can be philosophically wery "evolved", I donīt mean to generalize but Iīm quite sure that there are atleast few cases like this.

It would also perhpas be better if we would discuss with other kinds of people. When I first started to think about philosophical things seriously, I also became an atheist and I thought that I knew what was good and right and how people should live etc. But as I discussed with religious people (mostly christians) my opinions evolved quite a bit... and today I think that I have evolved quite a lot from those times, even though I am still an atheist.

Net is a great invention in a way that we donīt have to be so close to people or reveal our true identity... it gives people security and courage to be more open and discuss.

:rolleyes: All that sounds very fine. But then.... what ???:confused:

:cool: I'll try and find some free time to read you all tomorrow. Tonight I'm a bit tired, as I have had a long four-week-teaching English to teenagers, and I am moving to a new house.

:confused: excuse me : eight weeks ! You can see how tired I am.

Lack of time.

Everyone is on the run. Our pace has sped up. We don't have as much free time on our hands to sit on the porch or meet in the diner with like-minded buddies or neighbors--if we are fortunate to have them. Towns are spreading out into counties. Cities are oozing into the rural communities. People are everywhere but not really talking. They can't. They're too busy working and looking after family affairs. Intellectualism falls lower on their list of priorities.

I spend a lot of time with freshmen and sophomore college students, all ages, and most are racing from a job, to school, to home, and back again. Whether they're working for extra money, or just working to pay the bills, these folk are busy doing whatever it is they think they have to do. They're driven.

I, too, am on the run. I seldom have leisure time.

So maybe this factors into it also. Materialism, sure. That's bound to be a part. But look where we are now. War time. And notice some of the lyrics coming out in progressive rock songs in very recent years--last 2-3. I feel a shift underway in the American mindset, but I don't think it's going to shift totally in the "wrong" direction. (growing dumber) We're also in the information age. People are acquiring knowledge differently than in the past. We are in major flux. Here in America and all over the world.

(Which can be a bit unsettling if you've lived for a few decades and have watched some of this unfold.)

More places on the Internet like sciforums would be good, I think. Discussion boards that appeal to all, or to only the young, or to only the older. More places for people to meet like- & unlike-minded people in this world to help keep the ideas flowing. They/we have time to hop on the computer for a half hour once or twice a day, or check in before bed. But no time to sit and chat for a spell with thought-provoking neighbors, to attend lectures, to study, to meet for group discussions or debate.

Keep talking/posting and keep the ideas flowing. Those who are interested in starting new discussion boards, go for it, but make sure word gets around you're out there. Those who have friends or contacts in local areas, brainstorm over ways to bring more minds together.

The open, hungry, willing minds are out there, but it's a crowded busy world.

(Oh, and no charge for my input! :) )

Just for whatever it's worth...


~~~


Counterbalance

Not everyone.

Pretty much my whole life I've been fortunate enough to avoid the proverbial 'rat race' by staying clear of corporate culture and leaving the 'big city', never looking back and seldom going back.

Yes, there was a price to pay ... I never did get to purchase a Dino Ferrari, but I did buy a used Porsche Speedster and get to enjoy it for a good long while. ;)

And, right now I can look out my front window and see the neighbor's cows grazing in the pasture across the road, hear the Canada geese starting to head South, and occasionally see a few deer in the back field.

Never did make a world tour, but did cover a lot of territory on two wheels and was able to spend time in the S.W., 'on the rez' and meet some people who were still 'real' enough to feel lucky just to own a beat-up pickup ... and the hell with the make, so long as it ran.

Sorry for running on, but I do think it can be done. Just have to be willing to pay the price.

True, Chagur, not everyone. That was a generalization on my part, but a true one, nonetheless.

You are fortunate, indeed. I've also lived the "laid back" life, out of the rat race, beautiful vistas, days of peace spent in solitude, reflection, study and joy.

The point I was making is that the "rat race" is the norm for most people and the pace of this race has quickened over the years. Now, however, I think we are on the brink of...many things. Those with the vision and ability to preserve what they value have the means to do so. They also have choices.

And as you say,


Sorry for running on, but I do think it can be done. Just have to be willing to pay the price.

True words.

~~~

Counterbalance

P.S.

Always did enjoy a pick-up truck. No status symbols needed here.

I like the rat race. It lets me know I'm alive. Of course, I do place emphasis on being able to retreat from it once in awhile. Usually I meditate in a bubblebath for about an hour. It's like dropping into a pocket-dimension where nothing else matters but finding where the loofah went to. I drive a two-hour commute, and get in some meditation time there, too, but it's not as good as the bubblebath treatment. Maybe I'm not running. Maybe I'm just sort of jogging.

Oh, Chagur? If you look to my avatar, you can see my cow grazing peacefully on my hard-drive. :D

I live in cow-country. Modesto. Mooooooodesto. Yeah. I go a little nuts out here in the sticks. Fortunately, it's building up a little. I just wish I could find decent pay around here so I wouldn't have to commute so far just to make ends meet.

I live in cow-country. Modesto. Mooooooodesto. Yeah. I go a little nuts out here in the sticks. Fortunately, it's building up a little. I just wish I could find decent pay around here so I wouldn't have to commute so far just to make ends meet.

Start your own company. Let others earn the money for you. Me and my partner, we are tired of the rat race. So we are hiring people who enjoy the rat race.....

The problem with starting my own company is that I have no capital to do it with. Sucks, huh? In order to make money, you have to have money. I had put my eye on the possibility of opening an Erik's Deli Cafe franchise here. They're pretty popular in San Jose and Santa Cruz, and I think one would go over big on Modesto, what with the "early days of American farming" theme to all of them. I can see it now:
ME: Welcome to Erik's Deli Cafe. What kind of sandwich would you like? We've got the Pot-bellied Broiler, the Barn Buster, the REO Speedwagon...

FARMER: Nope. Ain't hungry at all. Ah jes' needs to borrow this here calf-weaner. (He helps himself to a piece of decor.) I'll have it back to you in a few days.

Seriously, I had looked into it in earnest. I just couldn't come up with the money right now. I'm still repairing my ravaged credit report. :)

I have lived in the country before. It's pretty and all, but for me it's more of a vacation place. I need to be in the thick of things. I find the world to be too interesting to seclude myself.

Bright lights, black leather, big city. That's my idea of heaven.

As long as one is happy...that is all that matters....:D

Is your life really so miserable that you have to degrade yourself by doing something as insane as posing as another person? Have you no self?
You have no right to use my avatar and my url:s and pretending to be me.

I commiserate with you Oort. However, I can't think of a time in human history when the masses did accept intellectualism. Prior to modern times they had their hands full with the daily challenges of survival. The church spoke for their few remaining free hours. Besides, freely thinking aloud in those days could easily get one killed.

The world has changed for the better. In North America and Western Europe, it's now child's play to earn enough for a good life. Most of us now have the freedom to choose between making yet more money, or having more time to apply towards the intellectual pursuits. The people have voted overwhelmingly with their feet! The vast majority prefers to exchange the precious hours of their lives for mere baubles. Occasionally, youth movements rise up to ask for something different for their lives. Sadly and invariably, these movements fade back into the background noise of getting and having.

I'm nearly finished with a thoroughly depressing book on this very subject, The Twilight of American Culture, by Morris Berman. Berman rips serially into the advertising industry, the suburban mall culture, American Universities, the entertainment industry, the political machine, etc. He's preaching to the choir in my case. But he has an interesting recommendation of how renegade individuals might best fight against "McWorld". He councils concerned individuals to follow the lead of the Irish monks of the Middle Ages. He asks us to collect and preserve culture for the future, for a time after the present madness has passed by. In contrast to the monks, he asks that we actually try to understand what we are preserving for the future, rather than just transcribing and illuminating jumbles of meaningless symbols.

While he makes any number of excellent points in his book, I don't accept his premise that the intellectual quality of this world is sinking into the abyss. Berman is recoiling from an up-close study of the unwashed masses. But I wouldn't have thought to gauge human intellectual health from observations of the masses, anymore than "I may not evaluate the condition of modern poetry by inspecting the contents of greeting cards" (S. J. Singer)

The health of an intellectual and artistic period may be judged primarily by the quality of the finest intellects and artists produced during that period. We don't judge the quality of art during the Renaissance by, for example, a sign unearthed outside Bruno's wine tavern from 15th century Firenza. We rightfully judge it by the works of Botticelli and Michelangelo, among many others.

I have to scramble to read even a small sampling of the many excellent books in print these days. Certainly there is no end of worthless muck on the shelves as well, but that has always been the case. I have no fear for the intellectual health of our world today. These are wonderful times in which to be alive.

The masses: Let them have their theme parks, their Hollywood blockbuster action films, their television, their fast food, and their huge piles of money. This only indicates that the masses now have the means to indulge their kitsch tastes. Let stand, what passes for happiness amongst them. A ubiquitous vulgar behavior only simplifies the task of men and women of quality to identify one another. Bermen writes, "Civilization is impossible without a hierarchy of quality". He also claims to respond with a "Thank you", to the label of elitist.

Slightly off topic: Berman blasts the current "postmodernist" movement, which in my opinion promotes the "absence of values" to a virtue. A value judgement in the eyes of a radical postmodernist only serves to reveal one's own nasty prejudices and bigotry. Goodbye to critical thinking. All knowledge and qualitative judgement is of equal, and equally useless value. The central concepts of postmodernism might be summed up with an expression of a single word, now passe, but formerly beloved by the masses: Whatever!

By the way, I recently came across a nice definition by Albert Camus, "An intellectual is one whose mind watches over itself".

Don't let the "McMasses" wear you down Oort.

Best Wishes,
Michael

There's snobbery of both materializm and non-meterializm, and I agree with whoever said it's just a symptom of something wrong in their own lives when people try to put you down.

It's against the rules to post an idea you've already posted someplace else in these forums, so if you want a really new and different theory, see my post in the Calvinists thread. I guarantee it'll surprise you. If anyone saw Lifetime's movie Monday night, "Video Voyeurism", and checked LifetimeTV.com's forum, you'll see we have all kinds of new trends, and laws haven't kept up. Only 5 states have laws protecting us from a neighbor or whatever putting cameras in our attacks. The perpetrator had to leave town, although he wasn't really punished, we learned from posters afterwards.

What you're saying is painfully obvious to me. And that state of mind is nothing but new.

The consequences of the intellectual drowsiness of our civilisations were best prophetised, I think, by Ray Bradbury in his novel Farenheit 451. Despise of books, menathing threats of a global war...

And now he's alive, seeing his novel slowly come true. *shudder*