Whether we, as Americans, feel that Sadam is a "bad" ruler is irrelevent relative to the war. History has shown us that if a dictator is in power and does not have the support of the people, then he is eventually overthrown. Moreover, the obligation to reform a government lies within the constituency of the nation and not an outside force. Thus, why is this war just?

I shall say this only once...

...Fidel Castro

MRA,

If you had said that in Iraq, while under the rule of Sadam, your tongue would have been removed.

Thor,
Believe it or not Castro's quite popular in Cuba.

M'kay then, I heard he was only popular because all those who opposed him were kinda like not alive for long :bugeye:

I know quite a few people who have been to Cuba and talked to people there in uncontrolled environments.
Cuba has a 100% literacy rate and free health care despite the US sanctions.
Cubans continue to suffer because of these sanctions but the majority of them understand that they are suffering because of the US and not because of Castro

I'm with you M.R.A., totally! What I've always wondered is where people get off thinking they have any right whatsoever to decide the fate of another country? Regardless of right or wrong(simply because it is a subjective opinion)invading another peacefull country echoes tyranny. But what's more important is how people fail to recognize what people think, especially because it will carry great consequences. Pay attention people, the world is getting pissed off!

Originally posted by M. R. A.
... History has shown us that if a dictator is in power and does not have the support of the people, then he is eventually overthrown. ..

History has also shown that it can take hundreds of years.

BTW, we just discovered a 100 acre chemical weapons plant, I suppose Iraq forgot about that one.

invading another peacefull country echoes tyranny. Not tyranny so much as imperialism. back in the day, nations tried to conquer other lands by waring with the natives and stealing the land. in out age, we overthrow their government and put in a puppet one to suit our own purposes.

I stand corrected.

Fidel Castro is not a bad guy.

My grandfather went to Cuba once and said it was a heck of a lot better then Venezuela (where he was born and lived)

Originally posted by jps
Thor,
Believe it or not Castro's quite popular in Cuba.

Yup. That's why southern Florida has a Cuban population damn near larger than Cuba.

Who wants to live in a country thats been isolated from the rest of the world by sanctions? Cuba is suffering, but by and large, Cubans know its the US thats at fault, not Castro.

UN sanctions. Not US. Also lets remember, it was UN sanctions that were placed on Iraq to, not US. And lets also remember that the oil for food programme was created by the French.

Actually they are US sanctions, but I disagree with those that say that Castro is that popular with Cubans. He's certainly no Saddam, but he keeps a tight clamp on the populace.

Whether we, as Americans, feel that Sadam is a "bad" ruler is irrelevent relative to the war.

Then might makes right and it doesn't matter if the war is just or not.


BTW, we just discovered a 100 acre chemical weapons plant, I suppose Iraq forgot about that one.

Well, we don't know that it's a chemical weapons plant yet.


Fidel Castro is not a bad guy.

My grandfather went to Cuba once and said it was a heck of a lot better then Venezuela (where he was born and lived)

Well, I for one think that "my graddaddy says" is a great proof! :rolleyes:

I think Castro is a pretty admirable dude. I'm doing a paper on Che Guevara, so I'm just learning more about Fidel too.

I especially liked reading about when he emptied Cuban jails, put the prisoners on a boat and sent it to Florida, where the prisoners claimed they were refugess and the US welcomed them with open arms.

Bettering his country while worsening his enemy's; how could you ask for a better leader? :D

I can't say that I can give an informed response as far as the Castro comments go, however in reference to what was said about Iraq: I will agree that the constituency should be happy with the ruler. But, I stand by what I said about obligation. If we all agree with Zey that "might is right", then any justification that Bush has given for America's involvement is defeated. I think that if America wants to fight for justice, then justice ought to be considered in what steps are taken to achieve that goal. Moreover, whether it takes hundreds of years to overthrow a dictator or not doesn't defeat the point that it's still the obligation of the people to do it. If a foreign entity supercedes the right of a government to govern within its own boundaries, then isn't the point of government defeated? If I were in a nation where the government's power was constantly trumped, then I would lose faith in my government. If the people themselves overthrow their own government, then not only is there justice but also reform made by the people who are affected directly by it. There is no outside bias. That, in my eyes, is justice.

Xev,

Lighten up!, just trying to have fun... besides its true what I said :)

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
Xev,

Lighten up!, just trying to have fun... besides its true what I said :)


US helicopter downed by Iraqi army in Karbala area, 2 U.S. Pilots captured:

http://www.albawaba.com/img/news/200303/245058_HP.gif

US helicopter drowning is a lie. I listenend Yesterday to US deny this in the news conference and general AbuZaid laughed when asked about this issue and complimented the Iraqi primitive search and rescue.......he said, bunch of Iraqi shooting at nothing in the water.....

Till when you will continue to lie on yourself, I saw the pictures today on TV, there was 2 apatchi down.

America has been humiliated in Iraq. do you want pictures ?

http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-23-23.htm

Oh no thanks....No pictures please Helen....another friendly fire claimed by the Iraqis.

Helen, stick around for another month.....I'd love to converse with you on the issue then....When all the top American Officials are already ruling Iraq with a American Arab facilitators underneath....The charts are already constructed and ready for implementation soon.

Also, stop saying humilation, What humilation you are you exactly referring to? the humilation of showing on the washington post the selection of ALL Americans to rule the future Iraq with Arab Americans facilitators assigned below.

The humilation of all the arab worlds who are the true chickens....not one of them is giving hand to Iraq....and all of them scared they'll be next.

The humilation of the oil companies that are already in Iraq putting out oil fires and getting ready to start pumping.

You are dillusional...Stay on your idiotic thought process and you'll never amount to anything but producer of vain propaganda.

i find all countries that have a minister of information suspicious...

Originally posted by Visitor
History has also shown that it can take hundreds of years.


History has actually shown us that Dictatorships very rarely survive the lifetime of the dictator.

Dictators rule by force of will, which is personality trait found in all Dictators.
Once the Dictaor dies, the regime usually dies.

All the 'great' dictators since Napoleon have been men of immense charm and/or persuasion. What the US government seems to have forgotten in waging war against Saddam Hussein, is that they are not fighting a regime. They are fighting a populace who accept the regime.
Take for example Hitlers Germany, It would be immensely wrong to describe the populace of Germany as Nazi fanatics. Yet it took the allied armies of over 2 million men a year to fight off the populace after D-Day. And that was with a veteran fighting force hardened by 4 years of all out war.
Why should it be any different with Iraq?
Sure Saddam is an evil brute who likes killing sections of his own population. Hitler wasn't?
Another thing about Saddam is that the majority of Iraqis are much better off that when he first came to power. The country has a very well educated populace, which is mostly middle class.
It is also the only secular state in the region. Even if it is a dictatorship.

The US/UK coalition has made a large error in assuming that the populace of Iraq is just going to give up and rollover. They have made naive assumptions about the personal power of Saddam Hussein.

Look at this way. It's now six days into the war, we havent even captured Basra yet. And this is a city where Saddam IS hated by the population. How the hell do they think they can capture Baghdad?

Look back at history, you find me a Dictator who has generally improved the living conditions of his people and not had the overwhelming backing of the populace of the country.

People assume that dictators rule by fear. and it is a truth that most dictators have used this element in their regimes , but a successful Dictator rules by getting things done through the force of his will.

I'm not going into the whys and wherefores of Russian and Chinese Communist Dictatorships as A) they weren't true Communists and B) Stalin and Mao truly were evil people who ruled by fear.

Don't get me wrong, I beleve in democracy as much as the next man. All I'm saying is learn from history.

The fact that america is rulled by a Right wing Junta who came to power in a quasi-legal Coup is beside the point.

Helen,

Thanks for the link. Do you think the iraqi shot those peaple after they surrendered? Also, the one POW looks as though he's been beaten. :mad: