Understanding Islam
A best-selling religion writer explains why the West needs Muslims to maintain a strong and vital faith

By Karen Fragala
NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE

Oct. 29 — With 1.2 billion followers, Islam is The World’s Fastest Growing Religion —but also its most misunderstood. Karen Armstrong, a scholar and former nun, tries to correct some of the stereotypes in her latest book, “Islam: A Short History.” .........

http://www.msnbc.com/news/649424.asp

What does this prove?

Originally posted by chalcedony
What does this prove?

I will leave that to your intelligence to get the conclusion.

PS: We dont go around knocking doors preaching our Quran to the people like you guys do and yet our great Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world !!!

the bigger they are, the harder they fall

Islam is The World's Fastest Growing Religion

And of course, you completely ignored demographics while making this announcement.

Originally posted by chalcedony
What does this prove?

Xianity is on its way out.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Understanding Islam
A best-selling religion writer explains why the West needs Muslims to maintain a strong and vital faith

By Karen Fragala
NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE

Oct. 29 — With 1.2 billion followers, Islam is The World’s Fastest Growing Religion —but also its most misunderstood. Karen Armstrong, a scholar and former nun, tries to correct some of the stereotypes in her latest book, “Islam: A Short History.” .........

http://www.msnbc.com/news/649424.asp :D

======================================
I have read somewhere that
"Christianity is taking Asia by storm.
And that China is going to be a Christian nation within 20 years"!

Originally posted by AAF
:D

======================================
I have read somewhere that
"Christianity is taking Asia by storm.
And that China is going to be a Christian nation within 20 years"!

Those people would do anything to get out of China even if it means believing in a mythological savior.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Xianity is on its way out.

Well said Medicine Woman....

You know, muslims are poor, they dont have the BILLIONS OF DOLLARS christian missionaries have, they dont send thousands of preachers all over the world as christian missionaries do and yet Islam is taking over to become World's No.1 Religion, it is really amazing.

Originally posted by AAF
:D

======================================
I have read somewhere that
"Christianity is taking Asia by storm.
And that China is going to be a Christian nation within 20 years"!

This is utter rubbish, here you have the facts:

http://www.atimes.com/china/AF09Ad01.html

....The percentage of Han Chinese will decline from 53.1 percent to 47.5 percent but other groups will increase - especially the Hui, ethnic Chinese converts to Islam - who will see their proportion rise from 7.2 percent to 22.1 percent.....

By 2020, more than 40 % of china will be muslims, christian missionaries like to lie all the time, typical christian missionary behaviour.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
This is utter rubbish, here you have the facts:

http://www.atimes.com/china/AF09Ad01.html

....The percentage of Han Chinese will decline from 53.1 percent to 47.5 percent but other groups will increase - especially the Hui, ethnic Chinese converts to Islam - who will see their proportion rise from 7.2 percent to 22.1 percent.....This is only a regional number, mainly in Tibet area. And that only involves no more than 3 million people.


By 2020, more than 40 % of china will be muslims, christian missionaries like to lie all the time, typical christian missionary behaviour. And where did you get this number?

So let's look at the real trend, at least in the USA.

Large independent survey on American Religious Identifications.

http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/key_findings.htm

Major Findings -

The proportion of the population that can be classified as Christian has declined from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001.

Although the number of adults who classify themselves in non-Christian religious groups has increased from about 5.8 million to about 7.7 million, the proportion of non-Christians has increased only by a very small amount - from 3.3 % to about 3.7 %. Muslims would be included in this small group.

The greatest increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has been among those adults who do not subscribe to any religious identification; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million in 1990 to 29.4 million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just eight percent of the total in 1990 to over fourteen percent in 2001.

There has also been a substantial increase in the number of adults who refused to reply to the question about their religious preference, from about four million or two percent in 1990 to more than eleven million or over five percent in 2001. Generally atheists are still uncertain about 'coming out'.

Also – Is the Position of Atheism growing Stronger - http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/atheism_growing_stronger.html

Atheism has grown in the last 10 years a hundred times more rapidly than any religion ever grew.

The growth is such that if freedom is again generally secured in the next 10 years we may justly expect Atheists to be more numerous than genuine Christians in 20 years.

Given the conditions for the operation of the historic law -- freedom and knowledge -- Atheism will in this century be the common attitude of civilized people. Non-Christians are the great majority in every free country today. Atheists number tens of millions, quite apart from Communist activity, in such countries. Let us get those facts recognized before it is too late. Sooner or later the despairing Churches will try to get a world-alliance with something like Fascist tyranny to check the growth of Atheism. It is their one hope. Let our young folk act in defense of the liberties that have been won for them and break up this fabric of lies.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Those people would do anything to get out of China even if it means believing in a mythological savior. Where did that come from? You obviously have no idea about the East - China in particular

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
By 2020, more than 40 % of china will be Muslims, Christian missionaries like to lie all the time, typical Christian missionary behavior. That's cute :) Do you even know a Chinese or anything at all about China? Have you ever been to Asia? Obviously not much. That would make as much sense as me saying By 2020, more than 40 % of Syria will convert to Judaism. Pretty moronic huh?

Originally posted by Michael
Where did that come from? You obviously have no idea about the East - China in particular

You're wrong, of course. I know and work closely with a lot of Chinese who are in this country and don't want to go back. They've openly talked about what their life was like in Communist China. They're all atheists but the nicest, kindest and most pleasant people you'd ever want to meet. They're only allowed two children. To get pregnant with a third, the government would remove you from your home to abort you. Should that third child achieve birth, it would be removed and murdered. Of course, there is an entire black market for the selling of organs (not the musical kind). However, their ancient medicine seems to work. Our health care industry is making an attempt at incorporating some of the ancient beliefs with modern medicine.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
You're wrong, of course. I know and work closely with a lot of Chinese who are in this country and don't want to go back. They've openly talked about what their life was like in Communist China. They're all atheists but the nicest, kindest and most pleasant people you'd ever want to meet. They're only allowed two children. To get pregnant with a third, the government would remove you from your home to abort you. Should that third child achieve birth, it would be removed and murdered. Of course, there is an entire black market for the selling of organs (not the musical kind). However, their ancient medicine seems to work. Our health care industry is making an attempt at incorporating some of the ancient beliefs with modern medicine. My partner is Asian. Most of my friends are Asian. All of my Chinese friends like China. Many that live in Australia are looking forward to returning home. None of them bad mouth China. All of them agree that the limit on children is necessary to maintain and/or lower the population within China. If they want more then they should go to another country to have more. The Chinese government certainly won’t stop them from leaving – it will be the country that the Chinese person may want to go live in that will prevent them from going there by not allowing them a visa. So who is at fault? I personally have no problem with state controlled limits to children when there is an agreement by most of the people that the population has reached a state were this is now necessary. You can buy organs and other body parts in the USA on the black market along with children, drugs, suff films and all manner of shit. So whats the point.
I was just talking with my friend Li Xiaomei yesterday and she said she plans to return to Beijing soon because there are more opportunities there. Another friend, Li Jin, is looking forward to returning to Shanghais to see friends. My friend Fei Chan and I were talking about his family history (he can trace it until the ~year 900). We always talk politics. He acknowledges that China has some problems. But when you post “Those people would do anything to get out of China” you are doing something akin to saying. Everyone in the USA carry’s a gun because it’s so dangerous. All Aussies have pet kangaroos. Japanese can not dance well. And what really irked my was the “Those people”. Many of “Those People” love China and don’t want to live outside of China. Maybe it’s “You People” that have the crazy government. OR just maybe people are people regardless.

Moderator message to Proud_Syrian

This is probably the third time you've posted a thread with essentially the same topic. Future threads by you on the same topic will be merged with this one.

Originally posted by Michael
That's cute :) Do you even know a Chinese or anything at all about China? Have you ever been to Asia? Obviously not much. That would make as much sense as me saying By 2020, more than 40 % of Syria will convert to Judaism. Pretty moronic huh?

I have been to china, I have been to the northern parts where substansial muslim majortiy lives, and I notice that muslims dont abide by ONE BABY POLICY in China, but they rather pay the fine and have more than one kid.

Clearly, you did not read the site from ASIA TIMES i posted above, please scroll up and check it out.

Originally posted by James R
Moderator message to Proud_Syrian

This is probably the third time you've posted a thread with essentially the same topic. Future threads by you on the same topic will be merged with this one.

If you stop DELETING my first posts, i wont post the same ones again.......thank you.

James,
When you merge the topics to this one, please make sure that you don't accidently bump this thread up on the board. Let it peacefully disapear in complete submission to god.

PS. Sorry for bumping the thread up myself.

One thing for sure: if it is to be forced to be global religion I will sure erase the world.... or leave....

Originally posted by curioucity
One thing for sure: if it is to be forced to be global religion I will sure erase the world.... or leave....

Isn't amazing that despite muslims are poor and they dont have the scary financial capacity of the christian missionaries, and yet islam is spreading all over the world WILLINGLY !!!!!

and yet islam is spreading all over the world WILLINGLY !!!!!

um....right... willingly
especially in afghanistan

Islam is the fastest growing religion
well, gee fuckin wiz. I'M CONVERTING TOO!!!

allahu akbar

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
I have been to china, I have been to the northern parts where substansial muslim majortiy lives, and I notice that muslims dont abide by ONE BABY POLICY in China, but they rather pay the fine and have more than one kid.According to a Chinese Islam web site, the total Muslims in China is only around 20 millions in 2003, no more than 1.5% of total Chinese population. And 99.9% of these Muslims belong to minority folks such as Hui. So you tell me, how can they growth to 40% in 2020?

What does the conversion rate of a religion say about that faith?

I not sure what your getting at Proud Syrian.
It seems your reasoning is faulty. Are you saying that Islam is somehow superior to Christanity because it is growing faster despite it's lack of a huge financial base to support it's missions?
If God intended for Islam to be the path to heaven why is Christaniny the world's largest faith? Why doesn't god make muslims write checks to the mosques to help them evangelize?

Originally posted by Mrhero54
?
If God intended for Islam to be the path to heaven why is Christaniny the world's largest faith?

The explanation is limited seating. Heaven is such a small space with limited capacity. Plus, I heard hell's fuel is made of bad souls, so you need a lot more souls to go to hell to get a hotter fire.


Originally posted by Mrhero54
Why doesn't god make muslims write checks to the mosques to help them evangelize?

God have delegated that task of buying people's faith to Satan. Satan is currently busy evangelizing christians. Every now and then he manage to send some funding to AlQaeda.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
This is utter rubbish, here you have the facts:

http://www.atimes.com/china/AF09Ad01.html

....The percentage of Han Chinese will decline from 53.1 percent to 47.5 percent but other groups will increase - especially the Hui, ethnic Chinese converts to Islam - who will see their proportion rise from 7.2 percent to 22.1 percent.....

By 2020, more than 40 % of china will be muslims, christian missionaries like to lie all the time, typical christian missionary behaviour.

:(
=======================

Actually, the rapid-spreading-of-Christianity phenomenon in the Third world is real. It is frequently raised by people who see it as the worst cult problem in the 21st Century; and by others who are concerned about the long-term survival of small traditional religions in various regions of the world. Their concern seems vey similar to that of the Environmentalist groups about endangered species issues.
The following article may shed some light on this problem:

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:UN_lbspydWQJ:www.firstchurchbloomin gton.org/wesley/w021027.htm+spread+of+christianity+in+the+third+wo rld+in+the+21+century&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Proud_Syrian:

I am a bit confused. I don't think I've deleted any of your threads. What are you talking about?

Neither have I.

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
According to a Chinese Islam web site, the total Muslims in China is only around 20 millions in 2003, no more than 1.5% of total Chinese population. And 99.9% of these Muslims belong to minority folks such as Hui. So you tell me, how can they growth to 40% in 2020?

Which freaking site you are talking about ?

Please dont speak from your back, speak from your mind and be kind enough to provide this CHINA MUSLIM SITE, i did already provide unbiased site.....what did you provide ?

Originally posted by James R
Proud_Syrian:

I am a bit confused. I don't think I've deleted any of your threads. What are you talking about?

It is really strange James, I did posted 2 new threads and they got deleted !! if it is not you, who is then deleting them ?

Originally posted by Mrhero54
What does the conversion rate of a religion say about that faith?

I not sure what your getting at Proud Syrian.
It seems your reasoning is faulty. Are you saying that Islam is somehow superior to Christanity because it is growing faster despite it's lack of a huge financial base to support it's missions?
If God intended for Islam to be the path to heaven why is Christaniny the world's largest faith? Why doesn't god make muslims write checks to the mosques to help them evangelize?

Indeed, I am saying that Islam is in fact superior to Christianity because we dont have 1% of the financial messionary resources they have and yet we are the the fastest growing religion in the world.

regarding the question of why christianity is the world's largest faith ( NOT FOR LONG TIME THOUGH, ISLAM WILL BE IN 2010) , you forgot that christianity came 600 years before Islam, so you have the element of time, 6 centuries my friend of work !!!

about the muslims sending checks to mosques, I said before, most muslims are poor and this is the amazing thing, despite poverty and the chronic shortage of resources to preach islam, we are doing well, in fact, very well.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Which freaking site you are talking about ?

Please dont speak from your back, speak from your mind and be kind enough to provide this CHINA MUSLIM SITE, i did already provide unbiased site.....what did you provide ? I am sorry. Here is the link, if you can read it.

http://www.norislam.net/readarticle/htm/77/2003_3_21_271.html

The artical was written in March 2003. The first sentence means "Islam has presented in China for more than 1300 years, and Muslims population in China now has reached 20 millions."

And we all know China now has population of 1.3 billions.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Indeed, I am saying that Islam is in fact superior to Christianity because we dont have 1% of the financial messionary resources they have and yet we are the the fastest growing religion in the world.

regarding the question of why christianity is the world's largest faith ( NOT FOR LONG TIME THOUGH, ISLAM WILL BE IN 2010) , you forgot that christianity came 600 years before Islam, so you have the element of time, 6 centuries my friend of work !!!

about the muslims sending checks to mosques, I said before, most muslims are poor and this is the amazing thing, despite poverty and the chronic shortage of resources to preach islam, we are doing well, in fact, very well.

:D
================
It's quite misleading to say "we dont have 1% of the financial messionary resources", for obvious reasons.
Everybody knows that Saudi Arabia and Iran, to name just few, are among the largest oil producers in the world. And both countries are spending lavishly on spreading and converting others to Islam.

Proud,


Islam is spreading all over the world WILLINGLY !!!!!No, this is not accurate. The increase is primarily due to significantly lower infant mortality rates. The Muslim world population is growing at a faster rate than Christian, and hence new born children who are clearly not in a position to willingly or unwillingly choose their religion are being counted.

Behind the sharp increase are drastically improved health-care facilities and plummeting infant mortality rates. The introduction during the past two decades of modern medical services and public health interventions - like antibiotics, immunization and proper sanitation - have brought death rates down rapidly. On average infant mortality rates dropped to 50 deaths per 1,000 births in 2000, from an average of 200 per 1,000 in 1950.

http://www.hassanfattah.com/article2452.htm

The more advanced “Christian” countries already had better health care and hence their increases in numbers seem far less dramatic.

What you can’t claim is that Islam is growing faster because it is more popular. The increase seems entirely due to largely secular dominated medical science. You almost certainly have atheist scientists to thank for the increasing Islamic population.

Originally posted by curioucity
One thing for sure: if it is to be forced to be global religion I will sure erase the world.... or leave....

Buh-bye.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
It is really strange James, I did posted 2 new threads and they got deleted !! if it is not you, who is then deleting them ?

you dare lie? allah will have your head kafir!

Proud_Syrian,


It is really strange James, I did posted 2 new threads and they got deleted !! if it is not you, who is then deleting them ?Here are all the threads you have started. What are the names of the threads you claim are missing?

((( I, Hereby, Announce The Fall Of Atheism Forever ))))
How do Islam and the Bible treat women who are having their menses?
If Islam is really bad, why ON EARTH then all these westerners are converting ????
Is the Bible really Evil ??
Islam and the U.S. Constitution
Islam denounces terrorism
Islam is Not the Source of Terrorism, But its Solution
Islam, World's Fastest Growing Religion
Misconceptions about Islam.
Moved: Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights
Poll: Statistical Miracles of the Noble Quran
Some Qur'anic Verses about Geology & The Origin Of The Earth
Tolerance in Islam .
Western Historians on The Islamic Conquests
What the Qur'an Really Says About Jihad and Violence
X-Rated Pornography and Lesbianism in the Bible.
You Must Know This Man !

Wow, I never noticed how much proud syrian talks about islam.
Speaking of islam, what a lameass religion, I mean really "islam", what the hell is that?
Go **** yourself islam.

A prominent Algerian lawmaker said a number of Americans guarding the 660 alleged Al-Qaeda and Taliban detainees being held by the United States in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have embraced Islam.

Here is one MUSLIM source which reported the story:

http://islamicsydney.com/story.php?id=1179

And here is another ANTI MUSLIM site which reported the story as well:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34783

Amazing News !!! It only shows that Islam is truly the TRUE RELIGION OF GOD.

Please explain how a conversion rate shows how it is the one true religion of God.

Could it not just as equally show that many people are deluded?

Come on, just admit it man, you lost the race .

Christianity is no longer providing any guidance for mankind, Islam is the only viable alternative.

Let us concentrate on this amazing news about those AMERICAN GUARDS who converted to Islam.......isn't EXTRAORDINARY !

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Come on, just admit it man, you lost the race . When the race is defined as a contest between contending superstitions, some of us choose not to run. Sadly, the only winner of your race is ignorance. Congratulations.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cris
[B]Proud_Syrian,

Here are all the threads you have started. What are the names of the threads you claim are missing?
================================

I posted a thread called Islam is the world's fastest growing religion and it was deleted, i posted it again ( and this is why James was asking me not to repeat the same threads again, not knowing that when i repat posting it means the first ones were not posted or deleted ).

:confused:

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
Wow, I never noticed how much proud syrian talks about islam.
Speaking of islam, what a lameass religion, I mean really "islam", what the hell is that?
Go **** yourself islam.

Thank you, it only shows the level of your civility.

Proud_Syrian:

<i>I posted a thread called Islam is the world's fastest growing religion and it was deleted, i posted it again ( and this is why James was asking me not to repeat the same threads again, not knowing that when i repat posting it means the first ones were not posted or deleted ).</i>

But wait!

What's this thread you're reading right now? It certainly looks like it's about Islam being the world's fastest growing religion...

I have learned that you can't judge a religion by the bad things that the people do. You can't say that Christianity is false because it is the reason for the crusades. You may say it is false for other reasons, but to say, "The people are bad, so the ideas must not be important" is just faulty reasoning.

It's the same reversed. Just because these people converted, just because your religion is the fasted growing religion in the world, what does that have to do with me? I've known many people that have done "evil" deeds, just because they were doing it, should I? Please explain why I should read into your religion. And don't give me any of that "He's the greatest man" stuff. That, again, only stated that the man was good, not that the ideas were good. If you would like, I could give you my e-mail address, and we could talk about your religion. I don't care about website links or anything; it would be much easier to have a conversation about it than to read through pages of uninteresting-ness.

Thanks for your comments.

The fact is that we are living in an era of HYSTERIC islamophobia and the constant attack by the western media against islam and muslims make us muslims very wary of any new developments.

seeing our religion growing so fast despite all this hate and anti muslim propaganda means a lot to us.....I hope you can understand.

I would like to talk with you by E-mail, you can write a private message to me with your e-mail....thank you.

Originally posted by chalcedony
What does this prove?

I think it proves that the followers of Islam mainly come from third world countries where the ignorant masses fail to practice birth control. The children born to these primitives are Muslim by default, and they are never even offered an alternative. I'm not sure this is anything to boast about.

Originally posted by Nehushta
I think it proves that the followers of Islam mainly come from third world countries where the ignorant masses fail to practice birth control. The children born to these primitives are Muslim by default, and they are never even offered an alternative. I'm not sure this is anything to boast about.

Your comments show the level of you sheer ignorance about the WESTERN CONVERSTION TO ISLAM...

I live in Europe, when I walk in any European capital, I see so MANY WHITE BLUE-EYED WESTERN women wearing the Hijab ( the muslim headscarf), we have between 6-8 converts every week in our local mosque......which world you are talking about ?

take this for example:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/Candice%20Vancraenenbroek.jpg
European Union president for research Candice Vancraenenbroek pauses before speaking during an International Women's Day Conference at the EU Charlemagne building in Brussels, Friday, March 8, 2002. Vancraenenbroek, born into a Belgian Catholic family, converted to Islam at an early age and has co-founded a group to help those women who also wish to convert.

Or this one:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/Heather_Ramaha.jpg
New convert to Islam since September 11,
US Navy petty officer, Heather Ramaha.

for more about the westerners who are converting to islam, check this site;

http://www.islamfortoday.com/converts.htm#COTW

or this one about the JEWS who are converting to islam:

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/

or why not check the NEW YORK TIMES which talks about THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM BEFROE AND AFTER 9/11 !

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30D13FA345A0C718EDDA90994D94044 82

Have a nice day !

So most of the growth you're talking about can be attributed to conversion rather than the unchecked birth rates in Muslim countries? And how many of those women converted because they were convinced of the truth of the religious tenets of Islam rather than, say, because of their interest in a Muslim man who will not marry outside of his religion?

Sorry to bring this thread back to the top but...


PS: We dont go around knocking doors preaching our Quran to the people like you guys do and yet our great Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world !!!

Members of your religion don't go around knocking on doors;
however, they most certainly preach. I have four Muslim friends
and they ALL very tactfully try to cram their religion down my
throat at any opportunity. I should note that one of them (my
closest friend out of the bunch) has stopped his preaching and
also appears to be the most open minded amongst the group.

This is your thread:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28987

and you explicitly 'sell' (preach) Muhammad AND you state that
he himself was a great preacher.

You forgot one, Proud Syrian

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/EDUCATION/10/11/scarf.reut/story.scarf.ap.jpg
Nashalah Hern has been suspended from the sixth grade in Muskogee, Oklahoma, because the hijab violates the school's dress code, which bans headgear. Ironically, young Ms. Hern has been suspended from the Ben Franklin Science Academy; sickeningly ironic, Hern was summoned to the school office and informed that she was forbidden to wear the hijab ... on September 11. (CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/10/11/scarf.reut/))

Originally posted by Nehushta
So most of the growth you're talking about can be attributed to conversion rather than the unchecked birth rates in Muslim countries? And how many of those women converted because they were convinced of the truth of the religious tenets of Islam rather than, say, because of their interest in a Muslim man who will not marry outside of his religion?

I am not saying Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world because of conversion mainly, of course the high rate of birth in the muslim world plays a vital role as well, but your ignorant comments about Islam generated my response.

and what's wrong with the high rate of birth ? Europe is dying out because of chronic low rate of birth, so muslims will make up the difference.

;)

And to suggest that these Western women converted because of muslim man is AN INSULT to these western independent liberal women, muslim man can and is allowed to marry girls who are not muslims, you see, you again shows sheer ignorance of islam and its culture.........

Please, Get some education about islam..!

This site might help:

http://www.islamworld.net

Originally posted by tiassa
You forgot one, Proud Syrian

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/EDUCATION/10/11/scarf.reut/story.scarf.ap.jpg
Nashalah Hern has been suspended from the sixth grade in Muskogee, Oklahoma, because the hijab violates the school's dress code, which bans headgear. Ironically, young Ms. Hern has been suspended from the Ben Franklin Science Academy; sickeningly ironic, Hern was summoned to the school office and informed that she was forbidden to wear the hijab ... on September 11. (CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/10/11/scarf.reut/))

Thank you, I forgot this little sister...May Allah bless her.

her cause only shows the pathetic level of discrimination and racism directed at muslims.....it is ok for christian girl to come to the school with CROSS on her chest or jewish girl with the star of david on her chest but it is not ok for muslim women to dress the hijab ( the head scarf) which is basic requirement in islam !!

SICKNING HYPOCRISY.

Her case remind me of another case in Germany where a German school struck off a muslim teacher for wearing the hijab, the teacher took the matter to the German high court after 5 years of legal battle and SHE WON THE CASE.....those American bigots who banned this little muslim angel should be taken to court of justice and be tried for discrimination and racism.

Dont worry, muslims are suffering now, but the future is GREEN....no doubt about it.

Originally posted by Crunchy Cat
Sorry to bring this thread back to the top but...

Members of your religion don't go around knocking on doors;
however, they most certainly preach. I have four Muslim friends
and they ALL very tactfully try to cram their religion down my
throat at any opportunity. I should note that one of them (my
closest friend out of the bunch) has stopped his preaching and
also appears to be the most open minded amongst the group.

Hang on a second !! There is a big difference between going knocking doors and preaching and between 'wishing' our dear friends and beloved ones the same sweetness we feel in Islam !

I will offer Islam to my friends simply because they are very dear to me and i want them to be saved, what's wrong with that ?

I think you should be grateful for these friends, they really CARE about you.

Originally posted by Crunchy Cat
This is your thread:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28987

and you explicitly 'sell' (preach) Muhammad AND you state that
he himself was a great preacher.

No my lady, I did not post to preach but to counter the pathetic christian lies against Islam and its great prophet....

When someone attack islam and spread false lies, then they must be challenged and stopped.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
[B]Thank you, I forgot this little sister...May Allah bless her.

I am shocked and appalled that this happened to this little girl! This defies our constitutional protection of separation of church and state.

When I was a child growing up in the deep South, we said prayers in school, we had church ladies come in and tell us Bible stories, there was no protection for us under the constitution at that time. Of course, that's before I understood the concept of separation between church and state. Also, the parents in the community were WASPs, so they didn't protect us from these personal religious invasions. It was the accepted practice. When I was seven I went to a Baptist Sunday School with my friends. The Sunday School teacher asked us to say something nice to Jesus for dying for us. I said, "Jesus I'm sorry you died." Just then, the old bat of a prude came up and slapped me across the face for saying that I was sorry Jesus died! Now, I'm not sorry, nor do I believe Jesus died, but I hope the old bat did. It took me a number of years to escape from their clutches, but I did, and I'm free of their lies.

God Bless this little girl in Oklahoma. That reminds me of NAFTA. Texas is going to slip right off into the Gulf of Mexico, but don't worry. Oklahoma sucks!

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
I am not saying Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world because of conversion mainly, of course the high rate of birth in the muslim world plays a vital role as well, but your ignorant comments about Islam generated my response.
and what's wrong with the high rate of birth ? Europe is dying out because of chronic low rate of birth, so muslims will make up the difference.

;)

Apparently my assumption that Islam is the fastest growing religion due to the higher birthrate in Muslim countries is correct. So please let me know which of my comments were ignorant.



And to suggest that these Western women converted because of muslim man is AN INSULT to these western independent liberal women, muslim man can and is allowed to marry girls who are not muslims, you see, you again shows sheer ignorance of islam and its culture.........

Please, Get some education about islam..!

Where did I say that Muslim men are not allowed to marry girls who are not Muslims? What I was talking about were men who will not marry outside their religion - there is a difference. You seem to assume that I live on an island and have never been exposed to Islam. The fact is, the company I work for employs a high number of Muslims, and the ownership of the company was originally mainly Muslim men. I am friends with most of the Muslims who work there, so I do know something about their religion, given that they don't hesitate to share it with me.

Although I like most of the Muslims who currently work there, as well as those who have worked there in the past, this does not mean I like their religion. I respect their right to believe as they choose, but I also feel that if they had been exposed to a smorgasboard of religions when they were young, and allowed to freely choose a different system of beliefs if they wanted to, many of them wouldn't necessarily be Muslim today. Most Muslims are Muslim by default rather than by free choice. Is that an ignorant comment as well, or do you concede that this is the truth?

By the way, I am truly sorry for the little girl who wasn't allowed to wear the hijab to school. I'm all about religious freedom - not about limiting religious choices, as you seem to think. I don't like Islam at all, and I particularly dislike it since 9/11, but then I don't like any of the Abramic religions. You needn't feel special in this regard.

Hang on a second !! There is a big difference between going knocking doors and preaching and between 'wishing' our dear friends and beloved ones the same sweetness we feel in Islam !

There is a big difference between preaching and knocking doors
and wishing your dear friends and beloved ones the same
sweetness we feel in Jesus!

No matter how you word it, if you are an advocate of a religion
and / or urge acceptance of it then you are preaching.


I will offer Islam to my friends simply because they are very dear to me and i want them to be saved, what's wrong with that ?

I never said it was right or wrong; however, it is rather annoying.


I think you should be grateful for these friends, they really CARE about you.

They care about the same things any other human does. They
just rationalize differently.

No my lady, I did not post to preach but to counter the pathetic christian lies against Islam and its great prophet....

When someone attack islam and spread false lies, then they must be challenged and stopped.

Really? I read your opening statement and there was nothing
in it that indicated thaht you were attempting to counter 'pathetic christian lies against Islam & friends'.

I know this is antidotal but as most of these posts are as well then what the hell. I have 3 friends who are Iranian. Each of them completely believed in Islam (of course). Each left Iran and all of them received an education (PhD). All of them have converted out of Islam and into Atheism. I’m saying pure atheists. There is no question in their minds. They laugh at how blinded they were in Iran by Islam. They say that most Iranians (outside of Iran) they know also are Atheists (although a few are not and they refuse to associate with those ones because they’re nuts). According to you Proud_Syrian this must suggest

1) That Atheism is the correct belief system
2) The because of this there must be some truth behind atheism.
3) That the trend is for Western countries to become atheists
4) That atheism is the choice people make – when given the choice.
5) That there is something holy and wonderful about Atheism.
:)
I like the last one!

Anyway, according to what Cris has posted - that is that: Atheism is the fasted growing belief system ever. The direction is not for a world converted into Islam. All of the indicators actually suggest that the world is converting to Atheism.

As for the "actual numbers" of people converting to Islam in the “westernized” countries. It is very small and you are overstating if you suggest otherwise. Without a doubt the over whelming majority of people unfortunately become Christian. This we can all agree. There is no doubt. Also, when compared to people “converting” to the agnostic and/or atheistic belief systems, Islamic conversions are just too few to make any sort of a statistical difference. The percentage of Muslims in the West has remained stagnant over the last 50 years. The ratios of Christian and Muslim haven’t changed at all during this time. So to say the fastest growing religion in the world is Islam is to say nothing about religious conversion - it’s just an indication of the drop in birth rate in the average “Western” country relative to the SE. Pacific. That’s all. Like I said before, if I got 10 people to convert to “insert religion here” in Arabia this year. “insert religion here” would be growing at a rate of at least 5 (up to 10) fold faster than Islam. “insert religion here” would be the fastest growing religion in Arabia. Which really doesn’t mean squat. So you actually do Islam a disservice by 1) over stating the facts and 2) suggesting that antidotal evidence must have statistical significance and 3) that either has any relevance to what is “truth”.

If that were the case god/or lack there of must have changed many times over the last 50K years :)

Poor girl! The US is so freakin bigoted, at least, people in power seem to be. My friend has a teacher that constantly preaches and makes fun of him because he's mormon.. and i know that's not as bad as the little girl, but still. Every bit matters. And i guarentee that if that had happened in my school district, a very large group of high schoolers would have started protesting about it.. said friend and I being a couple of them.

As for the topic? Maybe it's because of births, maybe it's because of conversion, maybe it's because of both. They can't keep perfect track of everything. *shrug* eh well.

Silivren,


Poor girl! The US is so freakin bigoted, at least, people in power seem to be.

Not to diminish this girl's plight, but I wonder if a Christian could openly wear her cross in Syria, or a Jew her star of David, or a Wiccan her pentacle? Just curious...
_________________________________________________

Proud_Syrian,

What do you say? Is there so much religious freedom in Syria that you have room to criticize the U.S.? If not, well, you know what they say about people who live in glass houses...

But just so you don't feel too picked on, there aren't many places where a Wiccan can openly wear her pentacle in a U.S. school either - so it's not just Muslims who are singled out for this type of religious descrimination in the U.S. - it's anyone who's not part of the Judeo-Christian majority. How do you feel about that?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Proud_Syrian


I am shocked and appalled that this happened to this little girl! This defies our constitutional protection of separation of church and state.
==============================
P S:

[B]Well,the constitution is applied only when it comes to non-muslims, muslims on the other hand have to suffer discrimination and crude racism....note, this little muslims girl is AMERICAN, her parents are converts to islam and yet she suffers in her own land !! how sad and crule is that !!

=============================
When I was a child growing up in the deep South, we said prayers in school, we had church ladies come in and tell us Bible stories, there was no protection for us under the constitution at that time. Of course, that's before I understood the concept of separation between church and state. Also, the parents in the community were WASPs, so they didn't protect us from these personal religious invasions. It was the accepted practice. When I was seven I went to a Baptist Sunday School with my friends. The Sunday School teacher asked us to say something nice to Jesus for dying for us. I said, "Jesus I'm sorry you died." Just then, the old bat of a prude came up and slapped me across the face for saying that I was sorry Jesus died! Now, I'm not sorry, nor do I believe Jesus died, but I hope the old bat did. It took me a number of years to escape from their clutches, but I did, and I'm free of their lies.
===========================
P S:

Jesus never died on the cross nor he came to save us, he did not want even to die according to the bible itself, it is this illogical doctribe that those mislead sheeps indoctrinate in the minds of people to decive them...does God need to die to save us ?? how illogical and irrational to do that ? and can God DIE ?? Death is human attribute and cant be applied on THE ONE WHO CREATED DEATH.
==============================


God Bless this little girl in Oklahoma. That reminds me of NAFTA. Texas is going to slip right off into the Gulf of Mexico, but don't worry. Oklahoma sucks!
============================

And God bless you too dear lady, thanks for your support.

I feel like I'm supposed to care none bout this thread (sorry for the offence, I believe it is) since this bothers my ignorance.....
But, well, those racist people really have to be slain.... what use is it to sweat it, I can't and hate to get it.......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nehushta
Apparently my assumption that Islam is the fastest growing religion due to the higher birthrate in Muslim countries is correct. So please let me know which of my comments were ignorant.
================================
P S:

As I said before, it is NOT only the high rate of birth, it is the western conversion to islam that makes islam the fastest growing religion in the world.

==================================


Most Muslims are Muslim by default rather than by free choice. Is that an ignorant comment as well, or do you concede that this is the truth?
===================================
P S:

Now this is ignorant comment to make, most muslims are not muslims by default, they are muslims by free choice because they can change to other religion if they want specially the ones who live in your 'supposedly' FREE societies, so why they are not changing if they are muslims by default !!!!!!!!!!!!!

let me answer you before you ask that there is no freedom in the muslim world by telling that that if this is the case, why muslims who migrate to the west COMMIT more to Islam and become even more religious !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

==================================

By the way, I am truly sorry for the little girl who wasn't allowed to wear the hijab to school. I'm all about religious freedom - not about limiting religious choices, as you seem to think. I don't like Islam at all, and I particularly dislike it since 9/11, but then I don't like any of the Abramic religions. You needn't feel special in this regard.
==================================

It's sad to hear that you dont like islam and you blame Islam for 9/11 , I think you should blame your TERRORIST GOVERNMENT FORIEGN POLICIES regarding the muslim world and their support for the israeli sadistic terrorism against the palestineans !!! NOTHING IN ISLAM JUSTIFIES 9/11........NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

Islam strongly denounces terrorism:

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com

Originally posted by Silivren
Poor girl! The US is so freakin bigoted, at least, people in power seem to be. My friend has a teacher that constantly preaches and makes fun of him because he's mormon.. and i know that's not as bad as the little girl, but still. Every bit matters. And i guarentee that if that had happened in my school district, a very large group of high schoolers would have started protesting about it.. said friend and I being a couple of them.

As for the topic? Maybe it's because of births, maybe it's because of conversion, maybe it's because of both. They can't keep perfect track of everything. *shrug* eh well.

Well said my friend, your comments are very fair and rational.

Thank you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nehushta


Not to diminish this girl's plight, but I wonder if a Christian could openly wear her cross in Syria, or a Jew her star of David, or a Wiccan her pentacle? Just curious...
__________________________

P S:

I think you dont know that about 12% of Syria's population are christians and that they enjoy MORE religious freedom than the one the muslims have in America....I challenge anyone to produce any evidence from respectable sources about christian or jewish oppression in Syria !

==============================

What do you say? Is there so much religious freedom in Syria that you have room to criticize the U.S.? If not, well, you know what they say about people who live in glass houses...

==============================
As i said before, I CHALLENGE ANYONE to produce credible evidence of religious oppression against christians in Syria !!!! !

=============================
But just so you don't feel too picked on, there aren't many places where a Wiccan can openly wear her pentacle in a U.S. school either - so it's not just Muslims who are singled out for this type of religious descrimination in the U.S. - it's anyone who's not part of the Judeo-Christian majority. How do you feel about that?
===========================
P S:

It's horrible, EVERYONE no matter what is their religious background has the right to practice their religion freely, this is BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

NOTHING IN ISLAM JUSTIFIES 9/11........NOTHING WHATSOEVER.


Where do you think the 19 hijackers are now, based on your religion?

Yeah, schools aren't just bigoted against muslims.. though i must say, my school is a lot looser than most. Even if some of the teachers are a bit bigoted, i don't think they would come down upon people for wearing religious symbols. Not that they notice. Said mormon friend borrowed a pentacle from one of my other friends, the teacher didn't even notice.. though another student said he'd pray for his soul.. *sigh*

Still, a lot of schools don't let wiccans wear pentacles.. they think they're satanic. I've heard stories about teachers fired because they're wiccan, students suspended because they wear their religious symbols..

Though i also once read a story about a christian girl who had a tattoo of a cross on her hand, and the school threatened to kick her out unless she had it removed. Why? It was a 'gang symbol'. The parents went to court and won, but this was after the girl removed the tattoo... Every religion has the chance of being persecuted against. The US is supposed to be the land of tolerance.. in words maybe, but not always in deed. Fun country, neh?

PS,


Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
I challenge anyone to produce any evidence from respectable sources about christian or jewish oppression in Syria !

I'm not sure what you'd consider to be a respectable source, but what about the Dhimmi (http://www.dhimmi.com/durban.htm) website?


It's horrible, EVERYONE no matter what is their religious background has the right to practice their religion freely, this is BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

At least on this point, we seem to agree.

As i said before, I CHALLENGE ANYONE to produce credible evidence of religious oppression against christians in Syria !!!! !

Enjoy:

http://www.foigm.org/IMG/phares1.htm

"In the 7th century, the Caliph Umar imposed this Dhimmi status on conquered populations under his rule. Christians, Jews, and others were forced to accept Al-Shurut al-Umariya, or Umar's conditions, a system of restrictions designed to shame and despoil non-Muslim subjects. Dhimmi peoples had to relinquish their land, were forced to pay a special "protection" tax (dhimma) or face death, wear distinctive clothing, and were banned from most government positions."

I only ask because I once asked about this "tax" before and no one would pipe up and give me an answer. Which is what I noticed happens on this board when one doesn't like the conclusion arrived at when answering the question. You, Proud Syrian, dropped the gauntlet yet when you are usually prolific now I hear nothing? Again, it’s just like this “tax” question I posted. Again, nothing. Or the question about variants of the Qur’an in existence and used today. Again nothing. I seem to notice that when ever one of these questions come up there’s near a pipe to be heard. My personal theory is that Muslims on the whole are quite rational and therefore instead of accepting the position that like all religions Islam is genuinely flawed they just pretend like the question was never asked. So I am left to assume the following:
1) The Qur’an was altered during its canonization implying it is not an original document evident by the fact that even today there exist multiple forms that obviously are not identical.
2) Foreign words exist in the Qur’an and therefore it is not in “pure” Arabic (what ever that is).
3) There was once a tax imposed on non-Muslims in Islamic dominated countries.

Now I see this religious tax in relation to a history of persecution and have a better understanding of why no one was willing to answer me.

All of which is typical of most religion. Even Christians in their convoluted logic at least accept the glaringly obvious facts. Even they as a minimum attempt to make a case that Jesus existed or was historical. They don’t just throw down the Gauntlet and then walk away.

Originally posted by chalcedony
Where do you think the 19 hijackers are now, based on your religion?

According to Islam, those hijackers are now in HELL, let us read from the Noble Quran:

"...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole humanity...(The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

Originally posted by Crunchy Cat
Enjoy:

http://www.foigm.org/IMG/phares1.htm

Oh Please,,,,,,,,,,give me CREDIBLE source like AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL or HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, dont give me these anti muslim hate crap sites....

My challenge is still on........so go ahead, I am waiting.

:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nehushta


I'm not sure what you'd consider to be a respectable source, but what about the Dhimmi (http://www.dhimmi.com/durban.htm) website?
==============================

P S:

As I answered above, these are anti muslim christian and jewish hate sites, credible sites are those from INTERNATIONAL RECOGNIZED BODIES such as AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL and HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael
"In the 7th century, the Caliph Umar imposed this Dhimmi status on conquered populations under his rule. Christians, Jews, and others were forced to accept Al-Shurut al-Umariya, or Umar's conditions, a system of restrictions designed to shame and despoil non-Muslim subjects. Dhimmi peoples had to relinquish their land, were forced to pay a special "protection" tax (dhimma) or face death, wear distinctive clothing, and were banned from most government positions."
=================================

P S:

What a load of lies and BS, you see my friend, when you copy and paste from anti muslim hate site, this is what you get, hate and lies........Let me refute these LIES one by one:

Jerusalem was the capital of the Jews until A.D. 71. In that year, the Roman Army made a major assault on the Jews, and exiled them from the area after great savagery. As the time of the Jewish diaspora began, Jerusalem and its surrounding area was becoming an abandoned land.

However, Jerusalem once again became a center of interest with the acceptance of Christianity during the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Roman Christians built churches in Jerusalem. The prohibitions on Jews settling in the region were lifted. Palestine remained Roman (Byzantine) territory up until the 7th century. The Persians conquered the region for a short time, but the Byzantines later reconquered it.

An important turning point in the history of Palestine came in the year 637, when it was conquered by the armies of Islam. This meant the genesis of a period of peace and harmony in Palestine, which had for centuries been the scene of wars, exiles, looting and massacre, and which saw new brutality every time it changed hands, a frequent occurrence. The coming of Islam was the beginning of an age when people of different beliefs in Palestine could live in peace and harmony.

Palestine was captured by Omar, the second caliph after the Prophet himself. The entry of Omar into Jerusalem, the incredible tolerance, maturity and kindness he showed towards people of different beliefs, introduced the beautiful age that was beginning. The British historian and Middle East expert Karen Armstrong describes the capture of Jerusalem by Omar in these terms in her book Holy War:

''The Caliph Omar entered Jerusalem mounted on a white camel, escorted by the magistrate of the city, the Greek Patriarch Sophronius. The Caliph asked to be taken immediately to the Temple Mount and there he knelt in prayer on the spot where his friend Prophet Mohammed had made his Night Journey. The Patriarch watched in horror: this, he thought, must be the Abomination of Desolation that the Prophet Daniel had foretold would enter the Temple; this must be Antichrist who would herald the Last Days. Next Omar asked to see the Christian shrines and, while he was in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the time for Muslim prayer came round. Courteously the Patriarch invited him to pray where he was, but Omar as courteously refused. If he knelt to pray in the church, he explained, the Muslims would want to commemorate the event by erecting a mosque there, and that would mean that they would have to demolish the Holy Sepulchre. Instead Omar went to pray at a little distance from the church, and, sure enough, directly opposite the Holy Sepulchre there is still a small mosque dedicated to the Caliph Omar. ''

So, in the above we are reading what WESTERN DISTINGUISHED historian Karen Armestrong wrote.....so if Omar really oppressed Christians, How do you explain the exsitence of substantial christian minority UNTIL now in Palestine ? How do you explain that these christian churches stood for centuries of Islam rule there and no onw destroyed them ????????????????

=====================================

I only ask because I once asked about this "tax" before and no one would pipe up and give me an answer. Which is what I noticed happens on this board when one doesn't like the conclusion arrived at when answering the question. You, Proud Syrian, dropped the gauntlet yet when you are usually prolific now I hear nothing? Again, it’s just like this “tax” question I posted. Again, nothing.
================================
P S:

Excuse me, I have no time to answer haters and people who believe lies and fabrications...when you copy and paste from anti muslim hate sites, then you lose your credibility as someone who is really trying to find out the truth.......but I will answer you here, I dont drop any questions, we are unlike christians have nothing to hide........

regarding the tax you are talking about, it is called AL JEZYA, and it is 1.5 % of your savings every year, the reason christians and jews who live under muslim rule pay this tax is because THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED to go to the army and fight, it is the muslim duty to fight and protect them.......THEY PAY AND STAY HOME, WE GO TO WAR AND GET KILLED....

If they pay 1.5 % tax ( NO ONE PAY IT NOWADAYS ) we muslims pay 2.5 % tax every year and WE GO TO THE ARMY while the christians and jews are home........so who is having better deal under islamic law ????????????????????

===================================
Or the question about variants of the Qur’an in existence and used today. Again nothing.

===================================
P S:

As I said, I cant debate all of you ALONE, but as I said, when you go to anti muslim hate sites, you will only get lies and hate....but here is your answer about the alleged variants of the Quran ( Please refer to these sites that I will give to you to find ALL the answers and the rebuttals for these pathetic haters ):

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.answering-christianity.com/islamic_qa.htm

Salam ( Peace )

And since at at, let us talk little bit about the CHRISTIAN SAVAGERY and BARBARISM against muslims during the Crusaders:

The Savagery of the Crusaders

Christian Crusaders plundered Jerusalem and killed all its non-Christian inhabitants:


http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/images/pictures/crusader2.jpg

While members of all three religions were living in peace and harmony in Palestine, the Christians in Europe decided to organize the 'Crusades.' Following a call by Pope Urban II on 25 November 1095 at the Council of Clermont, more than 100,000 people from all over Europe set out for Palestine to 'Free the Holy land from the Muslims' and find the fabled wealth of the East. After a long and wearying journey, and much plundering and slaughter of Muslims, they reached Jerusalem in 1099. The city fell after a siege of nearly five weeks, and the Crusaders moved in. And they carried out a savagery the like of which the world has seldom seen. All Muslims and Jews in the city were put to the sword. In the words of one historian, 'They killed all the Saracens and the Turks they found... whether male of female." One of the Crusaders, Raymond of Aguiles, boasted of this violence:

Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shoot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are normally chanted ... in the temple and the porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins.

In two days, the Crusader army killed some 40,000 Muslims in the barbaric ways just described. The peace and harmony in Palestine, which had lasted since Omar, ended in terrible slaughter. The Crusaders violated all the ethical laws of Christianity, a religion of love and compassion, and spread terror, allegedly in the name of Christianity.


The Justice of Saladin( The Noble Hero of Islam ) :

The barbaric Crusader army made Jerusalem their capital, and established a Latin Kingdom whose borders stretched from Palestine to Antioch. However, the Crusaders who brought savagery to Palestine did not last long. Saladin gathered all the Muslim kingdoms under his banner in a holy war, and defeated the Crusaders at the battle of Hattin in 1187. After the battle, the two leaders of the crusader army, Reynauld of Chatillon and King Guy, were brought in Saladin's presence. Saladin executed Reynauld of Chatillon, who had won fame with the terrible savagery he had committed against Muslims, but he let King Guy go, as he had not committed the same crimes. Palestine once again saw the true meaning of justice.

Immediately after Hattin, and on the very same day that Prophet Mohammed had been taken from Mecca to Jerusalem in one night, the day of the ascent, Saladin entered Jerusalem and freed it from 88 years of Crusader occupation. When the Crusaders had taken the city 88 years earlier, they had killed all the Muslims inside it, and for that reason they were afraid that Saladin would do the same thing to them. Whereas he did not touch even one Christian in the city. Furthermore, he merely ordered the Latin (Catholic) Christians to leave it. The Orthodox Christians, who were not Crusaders, were allowed to live in the city and live and worship as they chose. The British historian Karen Armstrong describes the second Islamic capture of Jerusalem in these words:

On 2 October 1187 Saladin and his army entered Jerusalem as conquerors and for the next 800 years Jerusalem would remain a Muslim city... Saladin kept his word, and conquered the city according to the highest Islamic ideals. He did not take revenge for the 1099 massacre, as the Koran advised (16:127), and now that hostilities had ceased he ended the killing (2:193-194). Not a single Christian was killed and there was no plunder. The ransoms were deliberately very low...

Saladin was moved to tears by the plight of families who were rent asunder and he released many of them freely, as the Koran urged, though to the despair of his long-suffering treasurers. His brother al-Adil was so distressed by the plight of the prisoners that he asked Saladin for a thousand of them for his own use and then released them on the spot...

When Imad ad-Din saw the Patriarch Heraclius leaving the city with chariots crammed with treasure, he urged Saladin to confiscate it. But Saladin refused. The Koran said that oaths and treaties must be kept to the letter and it was essential that the Muslims should observe the legalities... Heraclius paid his ten-dinar ransom like everybody else and was even provided with a special escort to keep his treasure safe during the journey to Tyre.

In short, Saladin and the Muslims in his command treated the Christians with great mercy and justice, and even showed them more compassion than their own leaders had.


Richard the Lionheart, was not very "noble" at all.
After Jerusalem, the Crusaders continued their barbarity and the Muslims their justice in other cities in Palestine. In 1194, Richard the Lionheart, who is portrayed as a great hero in British history, had 3,000 Muslims, among whom were many women and children, basely executed in Acre Castle. Although the Muslims witnessed this savagery, they never resorted to the same methods. They abided by God's command "Do not let hatred for a people... incite you into going beyond the limits" (Surat al-Ma'ida) and never used violence against innocent civilians. They never employed unnecessary violence, not even against the Crusader armies they defeated.

The savagery of the crusaders and the justice of the Muslims once more revealed a historic truth: Only an administration built on the principles of Islam could allow people of different faiths to live together in Palestine. This fact continued to be demonstrated for 700 years after Saladin, particularly during the Ottoman period.

Mohammed said no muslim should be killed for killing a disbeliever. Therefore the notion that a terrorist should be turned over to a non-islamic authority to be indicted on a capital offense is beyond reason to a muslim caliphate.

Jihâd (holy fighting in Allâh's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allâh knows but you do not know. (Al-Baqarah 2:216)

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâliműn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) (Al-Baqarah 2:193)

And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. (Al-Baqarah 2:191)

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 50:
Narrated Abu Juhaifa:
I asked 'Ali "Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?" Or, as Uyaina once said, "Apart from what the people have?" 'Ali said, "By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Quran and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man, with and what is written in this sheet of paper." I asked, "What is on this paper?" He replied, "The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 549:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Allah guarantees to the person who carries out Jihad for His Cause and nothing compelled him to go out but the Jihad in His Cause, and belief in His Words, that He will either admit him into Paradise or return him with his reward or the booty he has earned to his residence from where he went out." (See Hadith No. 555).


Are these things lies? Are these things not in your religion?

Yes the Crusades were terrible. But these things were done in defiance of Christianity, in defiance of God’s word in the bible.

Is it fair to compare Muslims killing people in obedience to the quran with Christians who killed people in disobedience to the bible?


I asked about the variants in the quran, and I did not get my information from what you call an anti-islamic hate website. I would appreciate an answer that does not come from an anti- Christian hate website but from you yourself.

You are such a pathetic christian, you go to anti muslim hate sites mainly answring islam, you paste so much rubbish from there and you ask answers from my own !! How pathetic is that ?

In Anyhow, as I SAID BEFORE, all these lies and fabrications are REFUTED in details here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com

In the meantime, let us talk about Peace in the bible:

2KI NGS2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.
.
2KI NGS5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.
.
2KINGS 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."
.
2KINGS 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.
.
2KINGS 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.
.
2KINGS 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.
.
2KINGS 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."
.
2KINGS 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.
.
2KINGS 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.
.
2KINGS 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."
.
2KINGS 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.
.
2KINGS 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.
.
2CHRONICLES 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.
.
2CHRONICLES 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.
.
PSALMS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle
.
ISAIAH 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's toeat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.
.
EZEKIEL 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."
.
EZEKIEL 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."
.
EZEKIEL 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.
.
EZEKIEL 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.
.
EZEKIEL 23:25,47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.
.
HOSEA 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MATTHEW 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

Christian Terrorism In Oklahoma City
By Dan Barker

Freethought Today, May 1995

When extremists from predominantly Moslem countries commit violence, many in the media refer to them as "Islamic terrorists." Why is no one calling the Oklahoma City bombing suspects "Christian terrorists"?

The militias being investigated are called simply "right-wing" and "anti-government," but these hate groups, like the Ku Klux Klan, all have bible-based agendas. Timothy McVeigh is a Catholic. The Oklahoma City bomb was detonated on the anniversary of the raid on David Koresh's Christian militia in Waco.

Ignoring the obvious religious connections here, everyone seems eager to turn this tragedy into an opportunity to acknowledge a deity. Oklahoma City invited Billy Graham and President Clinton to pray publicly to their god in an effort to lend some "meaning" to it all. Don't they see the irrationality of praying to this supposedly omniscient and omnipotent deity?

If I had known what was about to happen at 9:02 a.m. on April 19, and if I had had the ability to prevent the horror, I would have tried. Wouldn't you?

But Billy Graham's all-knowing God (let's pretend he exists) observed the truck being loaded with explosives. He sat alongside the driver on the trip from Kansas, knowing what he had in mind. He noticed the laughing children entering the day-care center.

Graham's all-powerful "God of love" easily could have prevented the detonation. Yet he did nothing.

Graham and Clinton should not be asking their God for comfort. They should be asking him, "Whose side are you on?"

What would you call someone who could have stopped the killing, yet sat by and let it happen? I would call him an accomplice.

Yet FBI Director Louis Freeh, knowing that his main suspect is Catholic and is associated with Christian right-wing militia groups, called the Oklahoma bombing a "godless act."

There is no reason for our government to equate "godless" with "evil." The facts of history show that most terrorism and war have some kind of religious motivation. The recent chemical warfare in Japan waged by the "Supreme Truth" religious cult is one example. Since Christianity has a history of bloody persecution, wouldn't it make more sense for Freeh to identify religion as the culprit here?

After all, Jesus reportedly said, "I came not to send peace, but a sword." This sounds like "Christian terrorism" to me.

My information comes from muslims in the US in response to my questions. My information comes from reading the quran, and the hadith. My information does not come from anti-islamic hate websites. My information and questions come from me.

You should answer the questions yourself and not just post an anti-Christian hate website, or is your knowledge of your own religion so poor that you cannot answer my questions?

Timothy McVeigh is a Catholic. That does not mean he was saved. If he was a born again Christian it is doubtful he could have done what he did since the Holy Spirit guides our lives.Not everyone who says they are a Christian or was raised as a Christian is one. There has to be a meaningful surrender to God and an acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour in order to be a real Christian. Being Christian is more than just attending church or reciting empty prayers.

Not a single person in the US believes that David Koresh or his so-called Christian militia in Waco have anything to do with Christianity. I could call myself a flower, but that wouldn't make me a flower anymore than Koresh and his followers calling themselves Christians makes them Christian. Consider that these people were dealt with and are now dead. Our country did not hide them as the islamic countries hide their murderers who kill in the name of religion.

Where was the outrage of islam when Saddam killed the Kurds?

If I had known what was about to happen at 9:02 a.m. on April 19, and if I had had the ability to prevent the horror, I would have tried. Wouldn't you?

I have stopped a murderer from committing mass murder, have you?


Graham's all-powerful "God of love" easily could have prevented the detonation. Yet he did nothing.

Did Allah (assuming he exists) intervene when the Kurds were slaughtered? He did nothing.


What would you call someone who could have stopped the killing, yet sat by and let it happen? I would call him an accomplice.

And you have just described the islamic governments who do nothing while shielding people like bin laden who spend their lives plotting to kill people. Or the islamic governments who do nothing to stop suicide bombers.

Matthew 10
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

You should try to understand what you are quoting instead of taking things out of context from some anti-Christian hate website. Not one single Christian believes this is a call by Jesus to take arms against others. This refers to the battle between Good and Evil. The ultimate victory of God/Jesus over Satan in the final times. The victory of God's people over Satan.

Saudi Muslim clerics condemn terrorism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3157493.stm

Triple suicide bombings in May were directed against Westerners
Leading clerics in Saudi Arabia have issued a religious ruling, or fatwa, saying that terror attacks by Islamic extremists are "serious criminal acts".
The Council of Senior Clerics said it fully backed the Saudi authorities in their campaign against those who were carrying out acts of sabotage, bombing and murder in the country.

It said those who claimed that such activities were part of a holy war were "ignorant and misguided".

"These acts have nothing to do with jihad for the sake of God," said the council, which is headed by the kingdom's highest religious authority, Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul-Aziz al-Sheikh.

It also said those who assisted or sheltered the extremists were guilty of "great sin".

"We must rally around the leadership of this country and its scholars, especially in this time of dissent," the council said.

On Thursday, Crown Prince Abdullah urged all Saudi citizens to be "the eye, ear and hand" of the security forces in its campaign against extremists.

Saudi Arabia has been tightening security since triple suicide attacks on Western targets in Riyadh on 12 May killed 35 people, including nine attackers.

The government had faced accusations from Washington that it was not doing enough to combat terrorism.

Since the attacks - which Washington and Riyadh blame on Saudi-born Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda network, Saudi security forces have arrested about 200 suspected militants across the country and killed about 12.

Several shootouts have taken place in which security forces have also been killed or wounded.

Fifteen of the 11 September 2001 hijackers were originally from Saudi Arabia.

The Explanation to the "Attack" on the US from the Islamic perspective:

When you read this article, you will learn that (1) Islam honors the human life and considers it sacred; (2) Islam does have the "a life for a life" punishment for the enemies of Islam, but has prescribed limits unto whom the Muslims can kill and warned against transgressing those limits; (3) See the controversial issue regarding the attack on the US, since the airplanes and the buildings had Children, Elderly and Muslims in them; (4) Islam prohibits the killing of non-Muslims living in Muslim lands; (5) ISLAM ORDERS THE MUSLIMS TO FORGET AND FORGIVE IF THE ENEMY SEEKS PEACE WITH THE MUSLIMS!; (6) Islam also orders the Muslims to repel evil with good; (7) Islam also commands the Muslims to offer peace to the enemy, so that the enemy can become a friend.

It is not who did it! It is why it was done that really matters!

All of the evidence that we have so far as of Thursday 9/13/2001 point to Muslim fundamentalists (who don't necessarily have to belong to Osama Bin Laden's group) that they committed the suicide attack on the US.

Well, you have to ask yourself the simple question: "What is it that our government did to those people that drove them to commit such a big attack against us?"

Well, I believe in the philosophy that says: "A picture is worth a thousand words". Therefore, let me present few pictures for you that should shed some light upon you:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/us_attack.htm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chalcedony
[B]My information comes from muslims in the US in response to my questions. My information comes from reading the quran, and the hadith. My information does not come from anti-islamic hate websites. My information and questions come from me.
========================
P S:

Typical christian, LIAR........why you guys lie all the time ??

========================

You should answer the questions yourself and not just post an anti-Christian hate website, or is your knowledge of your own religion so poor that you cannot answer my questions?
===========================
P S:

Look man, I have been debating your ilk for nearly 5 years and I know you very well, so stop being pathetic liar.

============================
Timothy McVeigh is a Catholic. That does not mean he was saved. If he was a born again Christian it is doubtful he could have done what he did since the Holy Spirit guides our lives.Not everyone who says they are a Christian or was raised as a Christian is one. There has to be a meaningful surrender to God and an acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour in order to be a real Christian. Being Christian is more than just attending church or reciting empty prayers.
=============================
P S:

Oh then.....born again !! I dont understand how person can be born again ??? SO MORONIC.

============================

Where was the outrage of islam when Saddam killed the Kurds?

===========================
P S:

When saddam ( the secular socialist ) was killing the kurds, you TERRORIST AMERICAN KILLERS were supporting him.......CAN YOU PLEASE CHECK THIS 2 MINUTES VIDEO AND TELL ME WHO WAS SHAKING HAND WITH SADDAM HUSSAIN ????????

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2038.htm

DIRTY HYPOCRITES.

Oh Please,,,,,,,,,,give me CREDIBLE source like AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL or HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, dont give me these anti muslim hate crap sites....

Why is the site not credible? And how is it a muslim 'hate' site?

Oh then.....born again !! I dont understand how person can be born again ??? SO MORONIC.

It is so simple. Our Lord Jesus told us we had to die to sin and become reborn to a holy life. That is being born again.



Saudi Muslim clerics condemn terrorism


Only within their own country, not outside the country by members of their own religion.


Well, you have to ask yourself the simple question: "What is it that our government did to those people that drove them to commit such a big attack against us?"

Nothing justifies murder. Why haven't your governments declared that this was an atrocity? Some of your religion don't even believe it was committed by the 19 hijackers. Some of your religion refer to them as the MAgnificent 19 and played the footage on al-jazeera in celebration of the event, not to memorialize the event. Hypocrite.


The Explanation to the "Attack" on the US from the Islamic perspective:

When you read this article, you will learn that

The quotes I posted from the quran and hadith says it all. Your religion requires you to conquer and convert or kill all unbelievers. Every unbeliever is an enemy to your religion according to Mohammed. Unless you think he is a liar.

Perhaps a better question I should ask is what sect of Islam are you?

See the controversial issue regarding the attack on the US, since the airplanes and the buildings had Children, Elderly and Muslims in them;

I nearly missed this.

Even here you are not condemning it. There is controversy only because elderly, children, and muslims were killed.

News flash. There were adult civilian Americans and other nationalities who were not muslim or elderly. Are you saying that their deaths were acceptable?

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Regarding the tax you are talking about, it is called AL JEZYA, and it is 1.5 % of your savings every year, the reason Christians and Jews who live under Muslim rule pay this tax is because THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED to go to the army and fight, it is the muslim duty to fight and protect them.......THEY PAY AND STAY HOME, WE GO TO WAR AND GET KILLED....

If they pay 1.5 % tax ( NO ONE PAY IT NOWADAYS ) we muslims pay 2.5 % tax every year and WE GO TO THE ARMY while the christians and jews are home........so who is having better deal under islamic law ????????????????????[/B] [/B]Thanks, now this is sort of what I was talking about. I really just wanted my question answered. I know some people here just want to slander Islam in the hopes of thinking Christianity then is some how improved. (They're not that logical you know :) Anyway, I don’t see anything wrong with an occupying power taxing the people it occupies. At least historically that happened all the time. Now remember, I’m Atheist, I’m not a Christian and I’m mainly on this forum to gain information. Preferably historical. But in light of the history I like to see different peoples people views as well.


Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
An important turning point in the history of Palestine came in the year 637, when it was conquered by the armies of Islam. This meant the genesis of a period of peace and harmony in Palestine, which had for centuries been the scene of wars, exiles, looting and massacre, and which saw new brutality every time it changed hands, a frequent occurrence. The coming of Islam was the beginning of an age when people of different beliefs in Palestine could live in peace and harmony.[/B]So accordingly, as we can look at the same general area today and see that it is again in turmoil and has been for the last 20 years (Iraqis and Iranians and Kurds have all been at one another throats). So by the above reasoning it would not only be acceptable but a good thing if the USA
1) Were to remain occupying Iraq indefinitely – its for the good of the people after all.
2) Were to charge a tax to each Muslim and Jew that did not fight in the new USA-Iraqi army. However if a person was to become a Baptist Christian then they get out of the tax – but then have to serve in the Millitary.
3) Were to replace all heads of state with new Baptist Christian heads of state and begin to indoctrinate the people with Christian concepts.

You see my point. It seems all fine and dandy when it’s “one own side” doing the occupying. I mean you seem to think it’s great that the army’s of Islam conquered that area because it was in turmoil and then became peaceful. A sort of the Ends justify the means sort of thing. But, we both know that during the conquering phase there were all the same sorts of things people do to retain their “freedom”. Rest assured people resisted and people died. And most especially people resented not having control over their own destiny. But as with all peoples, eventually (if the occupying power has the staying power) the people will change and soon adapt the occupying powers ways of life. One only has to look back 60 years to see this. So again, by your logic it’s a good thing for the USA to be in Iraq. Only not only should they occupy Iraq the USA should run the country. The USA should charge tax if people do not convert to the USAs predominate religion. The USA, should change the culture. The USA, should change the language. Etcetera.

You see the sword cuts from both sides.

If you say it was good of the Armies of Islam to conquer areas that were neither Islamic nor predominately Arab. Then by the same reasoning it should be good for of the Armies of America to conquer areas for these very same reasons. Ouch! As a matter of fact I think that is one of the arguments ass-face Bush/Blair uses to justify the war in Iraq. Its good for the Iraqi people! I’ve always like the saying: Fighting for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity. Is that what you are implying?

On to another topic,
I have another set of questions. I am not asking this to spread hate against Islam or bla bla bla. And I will appreciate some historical answeres (anyone really can reply).
Mainly I just want to:
1) know what the history of ancient Arabs and Persians was and
2) use said history to make the that point Islam and Arabic peoples are really no different than any other people. As I understand it was war between the two.

So on to my simple questions. If you could be kind enough to just answer in numerical order that would be great. These are specific questions I had and each one is valuable to me. So
1) Did the Army’s of Islam conquer Persia through force?


2) What happened to the heads of the Persian State and Persian Religion?

a) If they were replaced - were they themselves also killed if they resisted replacement?


3) Was it wrong of the Persians to resist the Armies of Islam?

a) If it was wrong then why was it wrong?


4) What happened to the Farsi language of Persia (it seems to be mostly Arabic now)?


5) Do you think it was acceptable for the Armies of Islam to conquer Persia?

a) If so why?

b) Would god have wanted the Armies of Islam to conquer and kill Persians?

c) If so how do you know?

d) Why would god want the Armies of Islam to conquer Persia?

6) Why didn’t god want the Armies of Islam to sail around and defeat the Mongolians as well? (I ask this because later these Mongolians would roll right over the Islamic Persians. In some instances completely decimating every living person in entire Persian cities).

If you have a chance to answer these questions - I really think each answer can be relatively breif. I'll ask if I need elaboration.
Thanks for taking the time.
Michael

Originally posted by Crunchy Cat
Why is the site not credible? And how is it a muslim 'hate' site?

Oh God, please lady, look at the site you post, jeeeee, you dont know even what is in the site you put.....

Oh well, as long as they bash Islam and muslims, it is fine !!!

:rolleyes:

Oh God, please lady, look at the site you post, jeeeee, you dont know even what is in the site you put.....

Come on now love, stop pouring your emotions all over the
place and start showing some facts. Lets look at whats
happened.

* You issued a challenge to demonstrate religious oppression
in Syria.
> I showed you just that.
* You stated that it was not credible and that it came from a
muslim-hate site.
> I asked why.
* You stated that its because the article was published on the
site 'The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc.'.

My response to this is that the site does not make the information
false nor does the site demonstrate muslim hate.

Now take a step back for a moment. Who is the author of the
article? It is a gentlemen by the name of Dr. Walid Phares. Why
don't you look into his background?:

http://israeloncampuscoalition.org/speakers/wphares.htm
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/biographies/biographies_show.htm?attrib_id=7535

Somehow I doubt that this highly educated, highly praised,
highly successful, highly diverse (cultural-wise), and highly
respected man is a muslim hater.

I would suggest re-evaluating the original article I posted. If
you think it's total BS then find some information asserted as
fact and then demonstrate a contradiction with empirical data
rather than demonstrating your ability to be emotional.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael
Thanks, now this is sort of what I was talking about. I really just wanted my question answered.
====================================
[B] P S:

You are very welcome.

=====================================

So accordingly, as we can look at the same general area today and see that it is again in turmoil and has been for the last 20 years (Iraqis and Iranians and Kurds have all been at one another throats). So by the above reasoning it would not only be acceptable but a good thing if the USA
1) Were to remain occupying Iraq indefinitely ? its for the good of the people after all.
2) Were to charge a tax to each Muslim and Jew that did not fight in the new USA-Iraqi army. However if a person was to become a Baptist Christian then they get out of the tax ? but then have to serve in the Millitary.
3) Were to replace all heads of state with new Baptist Christian heads of state and begin to indoctrinate the people with Christian concepts.
==================================
Your assumption is flawed for many reasons:

1-You cant compare what happened in the 7th century to what is happining now, the reason the muslim army went there is because the ROMANS ( far more powerful in army and weapons) were threatning the northern borders of Islam ( nowadays Saudi Arabia ) we went there and we defeated them, but we did NOT opress the christians or killed them, I explained that in previous post

2- America has NO right to come to our land, no one is threatning America, they accuse Iraq of having WMD although NONE has been found so far !! this war is all about oil and protecting the interests of the nazi terrorist state of Israel.

3- Muslims DID NOT force people to accept Islam, because the quran tells us: NO COMPLUSION IN RELIGION, any muslim who force anyone to embrace Islam is commiting sin.
========================================

On to another topic,
I have another set of questions. I am not asking this to spread hate against Islam or bla bla bla. And I will appreciate some historical answeres (anyone really can reply).
Mainly I just want to:
1) know what the history of ancient Arabs and Persians was and
2) use said history to make the that point Islam and Arabic peoples are really no different than any other people. As I understand it was war between the two.
=================================
From the oasis cities of Makkah and Madinah in the Arabian desert, the message of Islam went forth with electrifying speed. Within half a century of the Prophet's death, Islam had spread to three continents. Islam is not, as some imagine in the West, a religion of the sword nor did it spread primarily by means of war. It was only within Arabia, where a crude form of idolatry was rampant, that Islam was propagated by warring against those tribes which did not accept the message of God--whereas Christians and Jews were not forced to convert. Outside of Arabia also the vast lands conquered by the Arab armies in a short period became Muslim not by force of the sword but by the appeal of the new religion. It was faith in One God and emphasis upon His Mercy that brought vast numbers of people into the fold of Islam. The new religion did not coerce people to convert. Many continued to remain Jews and Christians and to this day important communities of the followers of these faiths are found in Muslim lands.
Moreover, the spread of Islam was not limited to its miraculous early expansion outside of Arabia. During later centuries the Turks embraced Islam peacefully as did a large number of the people of the Indian subcontinent and the Malay-speaking world. In Africa also, Islam has spread during the past two centuries even under the mighty power of European colonial rulers. Today Islam continues to grow not only in Africa but also in Europe and America where Muslims now comprise a notable minority.

this site is one of my favourites, it has great information about my people ( The Arabs ) and our history, culture.......etc

http://www.freearabvoice.org/

Regarding Islam in Persia, this link will help you understand the questions you raised about Islam in Persia ( Note, Persia at that time was GREAT FORMIDABLE EMPIRE which was brought down by poor bare foot muslims, the same thing happened with the soviet Union which was brought down by the Mujahedin in Afganistan, it collapsed just years after it was defeated there, so will the same thing happen with America ?? )

This site is GREAT, it has the history of Islam since the first days:

http://www.barkati.net/english/#01

and this one is just so informative:

http://www.muslimheritage.com

Enjoy !

Originally posted by Crunchy Cat
Come on now love, stop pouring your emotions all over the
place and start showing some facts. Lets look at whats
happened.

* You issued a challenge to demonstrate religious oppression
in Syria.
> I showed you just that.
* You stated that it was not credible and that it came from a
muslim-hate site.
> I asked why.
* You stated that its because the article was published on the
site 'The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc.'.

My response to this is that the site does not make the information
false nor does the site demonstrate muslim hate.

Now take a step back for a moment. Who is the author of the
article? It is a gentlemen by the name of Dr. Walid Phares. Why
don't you look into his background?:

http://israeloncampuscoalition.org/speakers/wphares.htm
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/biographies/biographies_show.htm?attrib_id=7535

Somehow I doubt that this highly educated, highly praised,
highly successful, highly diverse (cultural-wise), and highly
respected man is a muslim hater.

I would suggest re-evaluating the original article I posted. If
you think it's total BS then find some information asserted as
fact and then demonstrate a contradiction with empirical data
rather than demonstrating your ability to be emotional.

OH NOT AGAIN, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEE do your self a favour and go get RESPECTFUL CREDIBLE SOURCES such as AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL or HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, dont give me this BS from anti muslim hate JEWISH ISRAELI SITES !!!!

COME ON..........I will help you, here is the sites of Amnesty international and human rights watch:

http://www.amnesty.org

http://www.hrw.org

GO FIGURE !!!!

I am sorry you are so close minded about this. I don't think
any information presented to you will ever be accepted unless
it is from what you deem as a 'credible source'. I presume that
such sources are in very small abundance for you which makes
flexability and adaptability... challenging. Good luck there fella.

3- Muslims DID NOT force people to accept Islam, because the quran tells us: NO COMPLUSION IN RELIGION, any muslim who force anyone to embrace Islam is commiting sin.

Please show me where in the quran it says this. I have read many places in the quran and hadith that say otherwise.

Originally posted by chalcedony
Please show me where in the quran it says this. I have read many places in the quran and hadith that say otherwise.

Obviously, what you read was all in the anti muslim hate sites, but never mind, here is the FACTS about Islam from its source:

'' There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing'' ( The Noble Quran 2:256 )

More verses from the Noble Quran that orders muslims NOT to force Islam on others:

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.

4:79, 80 (Say to everyone of them,) 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 (Noah to his people) He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If 1 act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53, 54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith.

21:107 to 109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour (of Judgment) is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites (of prayer) which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord (since that is the main objective of religion). You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, (then say,) `God best knows (the value of) what you do."

88:21, 22; also see 24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the (task of spreading) Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every (false) religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16, 17 (Three Messengers to their people)Said (the Messengers), "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6, 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25, 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

60:9 Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Obviously, what you read was all in the anti muslim hate sites, but never mind, here is the FACTS about Islam from its source:


Nope, This is my own studies of the quran and hadith plus discussions with muslims. I have looked at anti muslim websites (and found them not as complete as I would have liked) as well as anti-Christian websites which I know you are obviously getting your material from.

No compulsion in islam?

Then why do these suras state otherwise? These suras order submission to islam.

And a declaration from Allâh and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islâmic calendar) that Allâh is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikűn (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikűn) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allâh. And give tidings (O Muhammad SAW) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve. (At-Tawbah 9:3)

Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikűn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (At-Tawbah 9:5)

Definition of Mushrikun

Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikűn (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allâh chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty. (Al-Baqarah 2:105)

The islamic apologist says this refers to Arabian tribes who showed up at pilgrimage and broke agreements. (How he got that out of these suras is still a mystery.) Yet it is compulsion since what was required for forgiveness is that they repent from their idolatry and perform As-Salat (which as I recall is prayer). Explain to me how forced prayer and repentence or be involved in a bloody battle is anything other than compulsion. Once again your book is contradictory.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chalcedony
Nope, This is my own studies of the quran and hadith plus discussions with muslims. I have looked at anti muslim websites (and found them not as complete as I would have liked) as well as anti-Christian websites which I know you are obviously getting your material from.
==============================
P S:

Stop lying.......you know, you are enforcing my belief that most of the christians and specially the missionaries are PATHETIC LIARS.....

More information about THE LIAR CHRISTIANS HERE:

http://www.access24.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/in/waqia/tactics.htm

=============================

No compulsion in islam?

Then why do these suras state otherwise? These suras order submission to islam.

And a declaration from Allâh and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islâmic calendar) that Allâh is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikűn (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikűn) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allâh. And give tidings (O Muhammad SAW) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve. (At-Tawbah 9:3)

Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikűn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (At-Tawbah 9:5)

The islamic apologist says this refers to Arabian tribes who showed up at pilgrimage and broke agreements. (How he got that out of these suras is still a mystery.) Yet it is compulsion since what was required for forgiveness is that they repent from their idolatry and perform As-Salat (which as I recall is prayer). Explain to me how forced prayer and repentence or be involved in a bloody battle is anything other than compulsion. Once again your book is contradictory.
===================================
P S.

No compulsion in religion:

My Answer has two sections. The first is a brief explanation of Quranic verses that are often mistaken as instructions to persecute Non-Muslims. The second section features verses from the Quran and Hadith that vehemently insist on religious tolerance and the idea of "no compulsion in religion." God willing, Non-Muslims as well as our Muslim brothers and sisters who resort to violence, will take these verses into consideration.
Anti-Islamic people often use the following verses to justify the stereotype that Islam is a religion of violence and intolerance, which was spread by the sword. The explanations here were aided by Abdullah Yusuf Ali's commentary on the Holy Quran.

Sura 8.12 "Remember thy lord has inspired the angels with the message. Give firmness to the believers and instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite the fingertips of them."
Sura 9.5 "When the sacred months have passed, kill the idolaters whereever you find them."

Sura 47.4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."

Sura 8 is about a BATTLE - the Battle of Badr - not just some daily affair. A battles take two side to occur. Are you under the impression that while these 'horrid' Muslims were fighting, the enemies were simply standing there like good little peaceful men?
Sura 47 was revealed during the first year of Hijrah when the Muslims were under *threat of extinction* by invasion from Makkah.

Sura 9 is interesting. Non-Muslims almost invariably quote verse 5 but leave out verse 4 and 6. Why? Because verse 4 says, "But the treatires are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have you subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God Loves the righteous."

And verse 6 says, "If one among the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure."

So basically what has been done above is:

1. The background to each sura was shown. One cannot take a verse revealed for a battle and insist it is if for the daily affairs of Muslims.

2. It was shown how Non-muslims who wish to attack Islam, conveniently leave out verses before and after their quoted verse. Above, I have shown only one of the many examples.


Section II

This long list of verses from the Holy Quran and the Traditions of Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) show that Islam at it's core and at its source is a religion of peace. Terrorists who persecute innocent people because of their faith are not welcome - their use of Islam as a scapegoat, does not make Islam what they portray it to be.
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.

4:79, 80 (Say to everyone of them,) 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 (Noah to his people) He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If 1 act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53, 54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith.

21:107 to 109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour (of Judgment) is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites (of prayer) which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord (since that is the main objective of religion). You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, (then say,) `God best knows (the value of) what you do."

88:21, 22; also see 24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the (task of spreading) Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every (false) religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16, 17 (Three Messengers to their people)Said (the Messengers), "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6, 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25, 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

60:9 Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.



The teachings of the Prophet on how you and I should treat our Non-Muslim friends and neighbours on a day to day basis as well as how to government should treat a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state.

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

I thought god was dead?

In Anyhow, as I SAID BEFORE, all these lies and fabrications are REFUTED in details here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com

...
...
...

More information about THE LIAR CHRISTIANS HERE:

http://www.access24.pwp.blueyonder....qia/tactics.htm


OH NOT AGAIN, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEE do your self a favour and go get RESPECTFUL CREDIBLE SOURCES such as AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL or HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, dont give me this BS from anti christian hate MUSLIM SITES !!!!

COME ON..........I will help you, here is the sites of Amnesty international and human rights watch:

http://www.amnesty.org

http://www.hrw.org

GO FIGURE !!!!

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
I thought god was dead?

God is dead in Christianity, but not in Islam.

What other religion advocates chopping off hands and heads, and stoning people in the streets? What other religion advocates global war, in order to convert people? In what other religion, during religious festivals, can you see droves of the "faithful" marching the streets with AK-47's, and declaring their desire to kill and die for "God". . Excuse me ....what are we missing here? How do religion and AK-47s go together?...

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
God is dead in Christianity, but not in Islam.

All things being fair, Proud-Syrian, the God of Christianity never existed, so it could not be dead. The One God of All (El/Allah) is still very much alive.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
All things being fair, Proud-Syrian, the God of Christianity never existed, so it could not be dead. The One God of All (El/Allah) is still very much alive.

Can you prove this?

Originally posted by Vienna
Can you prove this?

Can you disprove it?

M*W.....The answer to the two above questions is NO (as you well know). Therefore my statement is equally true:

All things being fair, Medicine*Woman, the God of Christianity is still very much alive, and is not dead. The One God of All (El/Allah) never existed.

Wallah....end of big debate.

Originally posted by Vienna
M*W.....The answer to the two above questions is NO (as you well know). Therefore my statement is equally true:

All things being fair, Medicine*Woman, the God of Christianity is still very much alive, and is not dead. The One God of All (El/Allah) never existed.

Wallah....end of big debate.

You, like all other xians, pretend to have a separate god. Obviously, you don't have the monotheistic comprehension that there is truly only one God, not two, not three-in-one, not four, not many...just One.

Secondly, "wallah" is not a word. It's French and spelled "viola," and it's NOT pronounced like the instrument.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Xianity is on its way out.

I'd take Christianity over Islam any day.

Not even the Christians take Christianity seriously; the Moslems are insane about it.

Plus, I want to look at girls with tight, revealing clothing, not ones enshrouded by giant kerchiefs.


Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
You know, muslims are poor, they dont have the BILLIONS OF DOLLARS christian missionaries have . .

What billions of dollars?

If He'd give me that much money, I'd love Jesus every day, every night, and in every position.


Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
By 2020, more than 40 % of china will be muslims . . .

I am going to hold you to that, because I think that by 2020 the world will be gone. The Aztecs told me, kind of like Allah told Mohammed.


Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
. . . I am saying that Islam is in fact superior to Christianity because we dont have 1% of the financial messionary resources they have and yet we are the the fastest growing religion in the world.

So . . . you use statistics to beef up your faith?

Without these statistics would you still be such an outspoken Moslem?

No adult person possessing both common sense and courage in the face of the unknown needs a make-believe companion to hold their hand.

Of course, it can be dangerous to one's person to say that too loudly -- herding instinct being what it is to irrationals' stampeding tendencies.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Amazing News !!! It only shows that Islam is truly the TRUE RELIGION OF GOD.

Guantanamo Guards convert to Islam?

That is a sign from God?

Sheesh . . . I must've missed a whole lot of them by now, them being so not miraculous and all.


Originally posted by Crunchy Cat
I have four Muslim friends
and they ALL very tactfully try to cram their religion down my
throat at any opportunity.

This is odd. One of the most sincere religious followers I know is a Moslem, but he rarely if ever mentions it to me.
I like him for it.
His name is Hussein! Lots of Laughs!


Originally posted by tiassa
Nashalah Hern has been suspended . . .

That sounds rather contrived to me, but, if it's true, it's quite sad.


Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
. . . those American bigots who banned this little muslim angel should be taken to court of justice and be tried for discrimination and racism.

I've never heard of the crimes "discrimination" and "racism".

You sure the court you want isn't the "court of [Allah]"?

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
You, like all other xians, pretend to have a separate god

Not true..... and no pretence......does the word trinity ring any bells with you?


Secondly, "wallah" is not a word. It's French and spelled "viola," and it's NOT pronounced like the instrument.

Secondly "wallah" is slang word, yes, it is actually a word.

Thirdly, don't act like you know me and how I think....you don't.

Originally posted by Crunchy Cat
I read your opening statement and there was nothing
in it that indicated thaht you were attempting to counter 'pathetic christian lies against Islam & friends'.

Did the same . . . found the same . . .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna
[B]Not true..... and no pretence......does the word trinity ring any bells with you?
----------
M*W: Sure, I know what the Trinity is, but I don't believe in it anymore. (By the way, it's spelled "pretenSe" and "Trinity" needs to be capitalized. Is English your native tongue?)
----------
Secondly "wallah" is slang word, yes, it is actually a word.
----------
M*W: It may be slang, but it is still spelled "viola" and pronounced "vwa-lah".
----------
Thirdly, don't act like you know me and how I think....you don't.
----------
M*W: Wouldn't want to know you.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
And since at at, let us talk little bit about the CHRISTIAN SAVAGERY and BARBARISM against muslims . . .


Do you have a grudge against Charles Martel?

Just asking . . .


Originally posted by chalcedony
I have stopped a murderer from committing mass murder, have you?

How does he qualify as a "murderer" if you stopped him from committing the "murder"?

Such a strange boast . . . rather like saying, "I've fed the hungry and am bound for Heaven. How about you, huh?"


Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
. . . please lady, look at the site you post, jeeeee, you dont know even what is in the site you put.....

I mean, puh-lease, Crunchy Cat!

Don't you know? Any and all sites that do not praise Islam must be run by horrible, prejudiced anti-Islamic jingoes whom we should jail for "racism"!

Jeeeeee Golly, lady!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Redoubtable
[B]Do you have a grudge against Charles Martel?

Why would he? That was in Spain BEFORE Muhammad was born.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Typical (Insert Name), LIAR........why you guys lie all the time ??

Now, fellow Sciforumites, this is the universal argument!

Like a universal-size pair of pants, it can cover your ass, no matter how big.




Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Why would he? That was in Spain BEFORE Muhammad was born.

Nope.

Martel commanded the Franks at the Battle of Tours in 732 Anno Domini.


Medieval Sourcebook:
Arabs, Franks, and the Battle of Tours, 732: Three Accounts

From an Arabian Chronicler

Musa being returned to Damascus, the Caliph Abd-el Melek asked of him about his conquests, saying "Now tell me about these Franks---what is their nature?"

"They," replied Musa, "are a folk right numerous, and full of might: brave and impetuous in the attack, but cowardly and craven in event of defeat."

"And how has passed the war betwixt them and thyself? Favorably or the reverse?"

"The reverse? No, by Allah and the prophet!" spoke Musa. "Never has a company from my army been beaten. And never have the Moslems hesitated to follow me when I have led them; though they were twoscore to fourscore."

Medieval Accounts, Check it Out! (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/732tours.html)



Mohammed was born earlier, in 571 Anno Domini.

In the desert of Arabia was Mohammad born, according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571.

Mohammed The Prophet, Check it Out! (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/lifeofprophet.html)




Jeeeeee Golly, lady! Get your facts straight!



Proud Syrian, quit it with your subject-verb diagreement before you give me an aneurism!
Oh, no!
Too late!

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
[QUOTE]M*W: Wouldn't want to know you.
Good. you know where you stand.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Redoubtable
[B]Martel commanded the Franks at the Battle of Tours in 732 Anno Domini.

Okay, smart ass, so I was off a few years. When did Martel stop the Moors in Spain? It's been a while for me....

732 Common Era, long after the birth and death of Mohammed, as I stated previously.

The question stands.

Does Proud Syrian hold a grudge against The Hammer who saved the Western world from assimilation by the Borg . . . I mean Moors . . . ?

Originally posted by Redoubtable
732 Common Era, long after the birth and death of Mohammed, as I stated previously.

The question stands.

Does Proud Syrian hold a grudge against The Hammer who saved the Western world from assimilation by the Borg . . . I mean Moors . . . ?

Okay, Redoubtable, my bad. This happened to be one of my favorite eras in world history, well the Frankish Empire. So it's been a few years and I forgot. When I studied the Franks, I didn't realize there was a Jesus connection until much later. Since you're not a fundamentalist on the fringe, I'll acknowledge your Frankish facts and refer to my old faithful textbook!

Klingon, World's Fastest Growing Language

No ProblemO, my Lady.

You know it's amazing how people feel when they are part of something. No disrespect to anyone in here who is religious or practices any, but don't you think that if you stepped back from all the believes in this world and searched for yourself more information, that you'd probably wouldn't be in an argument over who or what feels better?

People have died trying to prove some else's believe. These porphets were people like you and I. They may have had a higher level of understanding, but that doesn't mean to follow. You lead your direction by moving in it looking forward, not looking backwards to see if anyone is behind you. Most of us have a certain understanding of life and meanings through the teachings of ethics by our societies. Folks you have to remember that most religions are comprised of philosophies therefore making it a philosophical view of life and beyond. I apologyze if I didn't quite make my point clear or offended someone. Much respect to everyone though...1

Yes, it is odd that so many are willing to defend ideologies and opinions which they themselves did not form.
Galileo was quite willing to limit his works when threatened with death, and yet history is peppered with saints who stubbornly chose to be axed rather than silenced.

Thanx.