Not bad for a religeon of peace? what do you say?


Weekly Jihad Report
(3/10 - 3/16) Jihad Attacks: 75

Dead Bodies: 344

Critically Injured: 415

Monthly Jihad Report
(February, 2007) Jihad Attacks: 237

Dead Bodies: 1716

Critically Injured: 2884



If this true-to-life image of Muhammad, the self-proclaimed prophet of Islam, offends you more than the murder of thousands of innocent people explicitly in the name of Islam and Allah each year, then it means that you are definitely a Muslim (or at least a well-known type) and this page is for you.

As a Muslim, you know that life is full of tough choices. Do you behead or not behead? Have adult relations with your buddy's 9-year-old child...? Take a female sex slave... ?

For followers of the Religion of Peace, it all comes down to knowing what Muhammad did when faced with the same decisions (based on reliable Muslim sources, of course). In fact, the more you know about the founder of Islam the better, even if you aren't Muslim.

Forget all those shifty-eyed apologists, trying to make Muhammad out to be some sort of "Jesus clone" based on a few obscure anecdotes. The prophet of Islam definitely wasn't one to turn the other cheek.

You want the truth? Think you can handle it? Well, here you are then...

What Would Muhammad Do?
(a checklist)

Would Muhammad...?
YES!
NO!
Muslim Source

Have sex with a 9-year-old girl? yes, source- Hadith
Advocate beheading? yes, source - Qur'an

Require women to
cover their faces? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Befriend Christians and Jews? no, source- Qur'an
Own slaves? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Marry his daughter-in-law? yes, source- Qur'an

Approve of prostitution? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Gluttonize? yes, source- Ibn Ishaq

Recommend wife-beating? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Hit hit his own wife? yes, source- Hadith

Kill prisoners of war? yes, source- Hadith

Advocate suicide attacks? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Kill apostates? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Tell sick persons to heal them-selves by drinking camel urine? yes,source-Hadith

Beat children who don’t pray? yes, source- Hadith

Have eleven wives? (at one time) yes, source- Hadith

Lie? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Enslave women and children? yes, source- Hadith & Ibn Ishaq

Stone adulterers to death? yes, source- Hadith

Torture a man for greed? yes, source- Ibn Ishaq

Consider men and women
equal partners? no, source- Qur'an & Hadith


Steal? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Kill someone for insulting him? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Preach love for people
of all religions? no, source- Qur'an & Hadith


Extort money from
other religions? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Keep women as sex slaves? yes, source- Qur'an

Force conversions to Islam? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Commit acts of terror? yes, source- Qur'an & Hadith

Kill a woman? yes, source- Biographers

Capture a woman and rape her? yes, source- Hadith

Encourage the rape of women
in front of their husbands? yes, source- Hadith (Abu Dawud: 2150)

Have sex with a 9-year-old girl? yes, source- Hadith I believe the view is he was betrothed to a 9 yr old and that the marriage wasn't consummated until she was old enough, probably post-menstruation.

Even so, I find it very disturbing. Very much so. It really makes me shutter to imagine a confused girl brought in before a 50+ year old man talking with the voices in his head. It must have been very frightening - I imagine. It's too bad Mohammad didn't have the wherewithal to simply adopt the child and thereby set a positive precedence for future generations.

Sad really,
Michael

I believe the view is he was betrothed to a 9 yr old and that the marriage wasn't consummated until she was old enough, probably post-menstruation.

Even so, I find it very disturbing. Very much so. It really makes me shutter to imagine a confused girl brought in before a 50+ year old man talking with the voices in his head. It must have been very frightening - I imagine. It's too bad Mohammad didn't have the wherewithal to simply adopt the child and thereby set a positive precedence for future generations.

Sad really,
Michael

Morality is pretty relative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA)to time and culture (http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon216.htm).

Not that relative.

Not that relative.

Yes it is


The Mormon state of Utah has launched a crackdown on polygamists who for generations have used their religious beliefs to justify marriage to underage relatives.

Although multiple marriages are illegal, state attorney Mark Shurtleff insists it is not a witch-hunt against Utah's estimated 20,000 to 50,000 polygamists, who live mostly in large family groups or cults.

"The bottom line is that we have to protect the children, especially the young girls, who are the victims here. People have looked the other way for too long," he said.

In a high-profile move last week, police raided a picnic attended by 800 members of one family and arrested 32-year-old Jeremy Kingston, wanted since May on a charge of incest stemming from his 1995 wedding to his 15-year-old niece and cousin, LuAnn.

http://www.childbrides.org/action_Observer_Utah_cracks_down.html



Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine.

We hear little of Agnes during Alexius' reign (24 September 1180 to prior to 24 September 1183). It is highly unlikely that the match was consummated, as it was customary to import imperial brides from overseas at a young age to enable them to become acquainted with Greek and with their future ceremonial duties; certainly it was unusual under normal circumstances for Byzantine girls to marry before the age of twelve. However, shortly before Alexius completed three years as emperor, Manuel's first cousin Andronicus made himself co-emperor and then usurped Alexius's position altogether, putting him out of the way by having him throttled. Nicetas Choniates then, with morbid relish, claims that Andronicus (who was born c. 1118 and was thus about 65 years of age) sexually exploited the eleven-year old princess.[[13]]
http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm

Morality is pretty relative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA)to time and culture (http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon216.htm). As an atheist I agree. Morality is cultural, personal and subjective. Some people do not consider it immoral to rape their own children. I find it disgusting. I shutter to think of a 9 year betroth to a 50 year old man who hears voices in his head. No one here in their right mind would ever let such a person get close to their child. This would have been the case for most people of that time period as well.

Anyway, yes, morality is subjective.


However, with this in mind, many people actually believe Mohammad was doing the will of the creator of the Universe - in that case his actions can not be morally relative to time and culture and are completely dependent on what God considered moral an unmoral behavior.


It's all about setting precedence really,
Michael

It's all about setting precedence really,
Michael

You mean your idea of what is morally correct. Strange how atheists who always complain about theist claims of morality have their own rigid notions of how other people should decide on behaviour based on atheistic claims of moral superiority.

No?

So if, for example, you shuddered at the notion of men making love to men...

Yes, I agree with your posts, many Theists (including those of the Xian branch) use God(s) to perpetrate their pedophilic tendencies.

Really sick.


That said, I once read that for the plebeians in ancient Roman - women were usually married between the ages of 18-22. The upper class of course used marrage for financial and political alliances. Also, ancient Persians were the first to grant maternity leave to women. Some of the civilized nations had morals similar to our own.

You mean your idea of what is morally correct.No, I don't mean that.


Strange how atheists who always complain about theist claims of morality have their own rigid notions of how other people should decide on behaviour based on atheistic claims of moral superiority. Again, no my ideas are not superior. Morality is subjective.


So if, for example, you shuddered at the notion of men making love to men...I couldn't give two craps about what two three or more adults do. They could be 1, 2 or more men, women or trans-gendered in any combinations. I wouldn't have a qualm in the world as they are adults and can do anything with one another that they like - so long as they are all in agreement.

That said, I shutter at the notion of an underdeveloped mind, that is a childs, being involved in a type of relationship that is reserved for adults.


Yes, I find that sick, in my moral system it is sick sick sick.


Sam, we had this same conversation about Slavery and the same conversation about Murder. Now it seems we're having the same conversation about Pedophilia. Look I think it's wrong under all circumstances to betroth a 9 years old to a anyone. It's creepy to do so to a 50 year old man with a disconnect between his right and left hemispheres. I understand that you must mentally justify such behavior because Mohammad acted as such and you are a Muslim and hold Mohammed to be dear and so if he did sucj and such then there was a good reason for doing suvch and such and I suppose that justfication is the underlying point of this otherwise pointless thread.


Justification - which is why I said it's all about precedence.

So lets not argue again - I worry you are getting pissed off at me for simply saying such behavior IMHO is sick - which we both know we both agree top anyway - so we'll leave it there.


Michael


PS: What happened with the Encyclopedia? My questions never got answered :(

Sam, we had this same conversation about Slavery and the same conversation about Murder. Now it seems we're having the same conversation about Pedophilia. Look I think it's wrong under all circumstances to betroth a 9 years old to a anyone. It's creepy to do so to a 50 year old man with a disconnect between his right and left hemispheres. I understand that you must mentally justify such behavior because Mohammad acted as such and you are a Muslim and hold Mohammed to be dear and so if he did sucj and such then there was a good reason for doing suvch and such and I suppose that justfication is the underlying point of this otherwise pointless thread. :(

Again you misunderstand. It was a universal custom to marry off girls at a young age, including in India, regardless of the age of the groom, in all patriarchial societies. It may become customary again in another 100 years, for all I know. I don't presume to judge people of a very different time because I did not live in those societies. Which is why I can even understand why some people in India still have child marriages, because their social mores belong to a time that is out of step with current society. Consent and age of consent are modern concepts developed arbitrarily and differently even today, with no agreement on what constitutes maturity. There are still grown men who frequent child prostitutes even in the most advanced societies. Some here on this forum beleive children should be permitted to explore their sexuality. I disagree, but will people always disagree? I don't know. Which is why I consider morality to be relative. In a different time and place, I might grow up with a different outlook on sexuality and consent.

Morality is pretty relative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA)to time and culture (http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon216.htm).
Being relative, you're no more a defining authority on the subject than is a Geranium.

Unless you think you are. Then so, too, is everyone else a defining authority.

What a wicked symmetry.

Being relative, you're no more a defining authority on the subject than is a Geranium.

Unless you think you are. Then so, too. is everyone else.

What a wicked symmetry.

Of course, but I can only explain my viewpoint, in any case, not presume that of others. People are free to disagree at any point, just as I am.:p

Again you misunderstand. It was a universal custom to marry off girls at a young age, including in India, regardless of the age of the groom, in all patriarchial societies. It may become customary again in another 100 years, for all I know. I don't presume to judge people of a very different time because I did not live in those societies. Which is why I can even understand why some people in India still have child marriages, because their social mores belong to a time that is out of step with current society. Consent and age of consent are modern concepts developed arbitrarily and differently even today, with no agreement on what constitutes maturity. There are still grown men who frequent child prostitutes even in the most advanced societies. Some here on this forum beleive children should be permitted to explore their sexuality. I disagree, but will people always disagree? I don't know. Which is why I consider morality to be relative. In a different time and place, I might grow up with a different outlook on sexuality and consent.I don't disagree with you. I agree that morality is subjective. I thought I said as much?

I agree, Mohammed didn't do anything extra ordinary. He was simply doing what most Arabs did at the time. Taking a child bride was probably the norm around that time in that culture. What I think is unfortunate is that some people who believe in this God called Allah may look at Mohammad's betrothing a 9 year old and take it to mean that their God is more than happy to have men marry children. They may even construe that it is OK to have a sexual relationship with a child.

The Ayatollah pretty much wrote those exact words.



I have a question, yes I know :)

- Do you Sam, in your own personal opinion think that it is OK for a 50 year old man to marry a 9 year old child?
- If one of your 55 year old Professors at University walked into class and passionately kissed his pre-teen wife, what would you think? Holy shit I'm calling the police or Good on em, and she got such a nice dolly to play with on their wedding day.


Well??? What is Sam's subjective moral opinion?


What about society? Do you think that it is good for society to condemn 50 year old men attempting to marry 9 year old girls or do you think society should accept 50 year old men marrying 9 year old girls?
condemn or accept

Michael

What I think is unfortunate is that some people who believe in this God called Allah may look at Mohammad's betrothing a 9 year old and take it to mean that their God is more than happy to have men marry children. They may even construe that it is OK to have a sexual relationship with a child. If you look at actual statistics, you'll find there is a direct correlation with the parents education. I knew a 9 year old Hindu girl who was married off bt her parents. She was in school with me.


The Ayatollah pretty much wrote those exact words.


I've met several Iranian girls and they are in their 20s attending university and unmarried. So its not a given that the Ayatollah's words are taken to heart by all, is it?





- Do you Sam, in your own personal opinion think that it is OK for a 50 year old man to marry a 9 year old child?
- If one of your 55 year old Professors at University walked into class and passionately kissed his pre-teen wife, what would you think? Holy shit I'm calling the police or Good on em, and she got such a nice dolly to play with on their wedding day.

I have actually attended marriages where such was happening, and they weren't Muslims. However, they were poor and wanted a good life for their child.

IMO, no its not right, but then my grandmother was married at 12, and my mother at 14, so what do I know?




What about society? Do you think that it is good for society to condemn 50 year old men attempting to marry 9 year old girls or do you think society should accept 50 year old men marrying 9 year old girls?
condemn or [B][I]accept

Which society? Do I presume to judge all societies equally? I don't think so. Thats the kind of mentality the colonialists brought to India.

Of course, but I can only explain my viewpoint, in any case, not presume that of others. People are free to disagree at any point, just as I am.:p
Funny how your explaining reads so much like activism.

By your rhetorical style, you intend that people not be so free as you to be disagreeable.

Thus your attraction to moderating as your freedom to impose over-riding authority.

When rhetorical logic fails, there's always the available brute force method, eh?.

Some of us freely work without nets.

Free. Not subscribed.

Not bad for a religeon of peace? what do you say?

I would say you’re full of shit and that you’re a divisive intolerant asshole. Islam is no more violent a religion that Christianity. I’m sure you know that perfectly well but you would rather not let facts get in the way of your xenophobia. You would prefer to be the prototypical ugly American.

I’m sure you know that there have been countless acts of genocide committed in the name of Christianity. And assclowns like Pat Robertson and the lovely people behind godhatesfags.com are a constant modern day reminder of just how intolerant many Christians are, and that preaching violence and hate is by no means inclusive to any single religion, Islam or otherwise.

And as for your pathetic list of “quotations” from the Quran, it’s plainly obvious that you know nothing of what you post but have simply regurgiposted crap that you’ve found on some contemptible biased website where someone has deliberately misinterpreted out-of-context passages. The exact same thing can be done with the Bible. The Bible can be presented as advocating horrific acts of violence. History is full of Christian terrorists who interpreted the Bible in a manner necessary to concoct a religious justification for unspeakable horrors.

In short, the world would be so much better off without hate-mongering people like you. You’re a waste of a life. :(

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Avoid posts that promote hatred among different religions, ethnic groups or nations.