What is the origin of the belief that Jesus will eliminate all the Jews who reject him on the Day of Rapture? Why do Christians believe this?

How do they reconcile this with the image of the forgiving Jesus?

Yay! First one here.

The Rapture, or the Second Coming?

Yay! First one here.

The Rapture, or the Second Coming?

Are those two distinct things? I'm not up to date on Christian theological details

Isn't the Rapture also the Second Coming?

And I don't think it's limited to Jews who don't believe... I think it's an all inclusive purge of unbelievers.

Are those two distinct things? I'm not up to date on Christian theological details

Isn't the Rapture also the Second Coming?

It's not the same thing, but close enough for your purposes.

The Rapture is a futurist interpretation of Christian eschatology, in which it is posited that Christians will be gathered together in the air to meet Christ at, or up to seven years prior to, his return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

The Second Coming of Christ (also Second Advent or Parousia), is the anticipated return of Jesus Christ from Heaven to Earth. This prophecy is found in the Canonical gospels and is part of most Christian eschatology. The anticipated event is predicted in Biblical Messianic prophecy. Views about the nature of Jesus' Second Coming vary among Christian denominations and sometimes among individual Christians within these denominations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_coming

No. The Rapture is supposed to happen 7 years before the Second Coming.

And I don't think it's limited to Jews who don't believe... I think it's an all inclusive purge of unbelievers.

What do the unbelievers have to believe? That Jesus is God? Can they get a pass if they think he [or HE, since one would not want to invoke the gods, esp the crazy ones] is a prophet [pbuh]? How is this purge supposed to happen? When? Where?

Isn't the Rapture also the Second Coming?

I don't know which is which, but I do know that some people are really really angry about these things. Apparently, it is crucial to distinguish between the two, because if you don't, you go to hell and such.

Why don't they just cut the story short and say everyone will go to hell!

Why don't they just cut the story short and say everyone will go to hell!

So why do they have to wait for Jesus' Second Coming? Why didn't they all go to hell 2000 years ago?

So why do they have to wait for Jesus' Second Coming? Why didn't they all go to hell 2000 years ago?

Geez (ha!), I guess they were too proud, or loved life, or something like that.

What do the unbelievers have to believe? That Jesus is God? Can they get a pass if they think he [or HE, since one would not want to invoke the gods, esp the crazy ones] is a prophet [pbuh]? How is this purge supposed to happen? When? Where?
I can't ever get a straight answer to any of those questions. But basically, the "faithful", the "believers" will be taken up to meet Jesus before all hell breaks loose on Earth for 7 years. Then Jesus returns and takes control of the Earth.

I never did understand why he didn't just get it over with the first time around.

So why do they have to wait for Jesus' Second Coming? Why didn't they all go to hell 2000 years ago?

You're honestly trying to make sense out of the kookiest part of Christianity, one which was added well after Jesus left the earth. The book of Relevation (aka Apocolipse) was a rush job and was--like most biblical books--cobbled together into the bible more by Catholic decrees than by any original gathering of true Christians.

~String

Oh. The commonest belief as to why all this wasn't done the first time was because of the need for all people, everywhere, to have the opportunity to "hear Christ's message". As such, there would be no rapture until every nation and every tribe had been given the opportunity to hear and reject or accept the word of Christ.

Some speculate that 2k years from Christ's assent into heaven (approx. 2032) would be the time.

~String

You're honestly trying to make sense out of the kookiest part of Christianity, one which was added well after Jesus left the earth. The book of Relevation (aka Apocolipse) was a rush job and was--like most biblical books--cobbled together into the bible more by Catholic decrees than by any original gathering of true Christians.

~String

Well its serendipity. I recently came across a real life instance of one of those who are waiting for this occasion. It was pretty scary :p

Amongst Christian theologists, there exist three popular beliefs regarding eschatology: premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism. In the broadest sense, the concept of millennialism in Christianity refers to the general belief that in the future, a Golden Age will come in which Jesus will return (Second Coming) to reign for 1000 years over the earth, concluding with the final judgment of mankind. However, there are a variety of different outlooks as to the specifics concerning this generalized timeline.

Premillennialism is the belief that, put very simply, Jesus’ return will precede the establishment of God’s earthly kingdom. This means that Jesus will physically rule the world from a throne, most likely located in Jerusalem. However, premillennialism itself may also be subdivided into two categories: historic and dispensational. Historical premillennialists believe that the establishment of this earthly kingdom will occur following the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is a period of time in the future when people across the world will face terrible disasters, wars, and famines, resulting in the deaths of most of the earth’s inhabitants. Historical premillennialists therefore believe that Christians of the earth will be subjected to the miseries of the Tribulation, and will be forced to endure persecutions until such time that Jesus shall return (Second Coming) and establish a Godly kingdom on earth. To be more specific, Jesus is said to return and battle the Antichrist (who rules the world during Tribulation) in the battle of Armageddon; Jesus and his followers will be victorious, and establish the earthly kingdom. Dispensational premillennialists, on the other hand, believe that Jesus will return one day and make the Christians of the earth - both living and dead - ascend to heaven, an event also known as the Rapture. Following the Rapture, all non-Christians will be forced to endure the Tribulation, after which Jesus will return from heaven with all the world’s Christians to establish a 1000 year reign on earth ("1000 years" should not be given much literary attention - it is more likely to represent a long period of time than an exact interval).

Postmillennialism is the belief that Jesus’ return will occur after the establishment of God’s earthly kingdom. It is thought that the forces of Satan will eventually be overcome by the forces of good, and Christianity will spread across the world by virtue of the victory celebrated by the faithful. Only then will Jesus return to reign over the world.

Finally, amillennialism is the belief that God’s earthly kingdom will not feature the physical presence of Jesus on a throne. It is believed here, instead, that this kingdom of God will be spiritual in nature, and that following this long period of sustained spirituality across the nations, the final judgment of mankind shall be established.

Regarding the connection of Jews to Christian eschatology, the most important sect is dispensational premillennialism. In this sect, a clear division is made between the Church and Israel. Israel is interpreted in the writings much like it is interpreted in today’s political world - as an ethnic nation of Jews. The Church, on the other hand, is the diverse body of individuals who have come to accept Jesus. As such, the Rapture will only include the Christians of faith, as all other people of the earth (including the Jews) will be forced to remain behind and endure the Tribulation. Here, it is said that of the Jews remaining on the Earth, two-thirds will die, and the remaining third will be left in Tribulation to preach to the world that Jesus is, in fact, Messiah (the one-third remaining Jewish population figure is from Zechariah). Another book (Revelation, final book of New Testament) says specifically that 144,000 Jews will remain in Tribulation to spread the message of God to the unbelievers. These Jews will be pious and without fault before the throne of God. The reason why Israel as a whole is not saved in this belief system is because the inhabitants of Jerusalem (the Jews) must be cleansed from impurity and sin. Mind you, this is what the dispensationalists believe, who happen to constitute, from my understanding, the majority of Christians in America and are essentially the heart of Christian Zionism. Others think Zechariah does not refer to millennialism at all, but instead to the sack of Jerusalem by the Romans.

Not only does this perfectly describe The Rapture, it's my favorite American Dad:
American Dad-5x09 - Raptures Delight (http://www.watchcartoononline.com/american-dad-season-5-episode-87-%E2%80%93-raptures-delight)

Stan Smith.... GO TO HEAVEN!!


See from 10:00
He turned water into FINE.....! :D

Whats the origin of all this stuff? Is it in the Bible?

The various theories regarding Christian eschatology do indeed originate from the Bible. The primary books which proponents consult are the First and Second Thessalonians, Revelation, and the Gospel of Matthew (all of which are part of the New Testament), although others sources such as Zechariah (part of the Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh) are often referenced.

The most rational interpretation of the Scriptures leads one to believe that the Rapture is a false doctrine. The idea that Jesus will return in secrecy to suddenly “take away” the believers to Heaven, and return at a later time hinges more or less on two verses in the First Thessalonians. Those who believe in the Rapture interpret these verses thinking that Jesus will return to gather the believers - both living and dead - and take them away (the destination believed to be heaven). It is important to realize that the First Thessalonians is a letter from Saint Paul which describes the state of the Church in Thessalonica at the time. Saint Paul intended to comfort the believers who mourned the losses of their fellow Christians, who thought that those who had died would never see the earthly kingdom. Therefore, Paul declared that the believers who are alive during the Second Coming would not precede in any way those who were dead, and a time would come when all the deceased believers would be resurrected.

What Thessalonians actually states is that Jesus’ return will be felt by all and happen suddenly (in contrast to the Rapture theory). The believers will manage to endure the Tribulation, at which point the dead shall be resurrected and the living will join them in spirit to meet Jesus as he makes his return to earth - the true Second Coming. Zechariah states that this return will happen in the greatest hour of need for mankind, when the forces of the Antichrist have made claim to the entire world (this is said to coincide with the utter destruction of Jerusalem and most of its inhabitants). In relation to the Jews, the dispensationalists (those who believe 1 Thessalonians refers to a seven-year long Rapture wherein only believers will be saved) believe most will die for their idolatry and sins (which is why they were not included in the Rapture), and only a handful of pious Jews will remain and spread the message of Jesus to the troubled earth. Those who do not believe in the Rapture argue that the believers will indeed experience the Tribulation, although many will be protected by God; the fate of the Jews will be the same - most will die, and only a portion will remain and accept Jesus as their Messiah.

It is also worthy of note to mention that the modern day belief in the Rapture originated primarily from John Nelson Darby, a nineteenth-century Evangelist. The idea of a Rapture did not exist before Darby.

Well its serendipity. I recently came across a real life instance of one of those who are waiting for this occasion. It was pretty scary :p
"It's just old Luke and Luke's waiting on the judgement day."

Living in the "Bible Belt" I've met quite a few. One of the scariest things is that some have actually told me that it doesn't matter what we do to the Earth. Because when Jesus returns, he'll fix it. :bugeye:

LOL so both islam and christianity will kill the jews in the end, They are so screwed:D
PS. any jews needing refuge can contact me.

Whats the origin of all this stuff?Human imagination. Even the people of Easter Island had Sea Gods who aligned the shells in rows along the beach from smallest to largest. Even in this day and age, some people still venerate meteorites ;) haha.. magic rocks from the Gods....

Human imagination. Even the people of Easter Island had Sea Gods who aligned the shells in rows along the beach from smallest to largest. Even in this day and age, some people still venerate meteorites ;) haha.. magic rocks from the Gods....

Human imagination vs human reason, hmmm who or what will prevail?

So basically, Christ comes to earth and kills the believers so they go to heaven then kills the disbelievers so they go to hell. So who does he rule for a thousand years? The agnostics?

The agnostics really can't know, so there is no shame or blame on them.

The agnostics really can't know, so there is no shame or blame on them.

Can they plead ignorance when he comes down to earth? If they get religion at that point, they die anyway since Christ is quite egalitarian in his genocidal tendencies. Maybe its a do-over like the Matrix, we start with a fresh batch of some new species of people.

So basically, Christ comes to earth and kills the believers so they go to heaven then kills the disbelievers so they go to hell. So who does he rule for a thousand years? The agnostics?

hahaha :D

LOL so both islam and christianity will kill the jews in the end, They are so screwed:D
PS. any jews needing refuge can contact me.

Jewish tradition holds that a long-awaited Messiah will come to earth, which the Talmud and Zohar pinpoint will occur sometime between now and the year 2240 (other Jewish sources say the Messiah will come when he is most needed, whilst others still say his arrival will happen when the people of earth are most deserving for their observance of God’s laws). The Messiah will then gather all the Jews from across the world to their homeland of Israel, rebuild the Temple, and impose Halakha (Judaic law) across the entire world. From that moment onward, the world will know absolute peace (in other words, a constant Sabbath) which is called the Messianic era. Interestingly enough, Rabbinical Jewish tradition (a belief system which holds valid the writings and commentaries of ancient Rabbis, known as the Mishnah or Talmud) also advocates a belief in resurrection on earth. According to Talmudic tradition, deceased Jews will be resurrected, and all will have the opportunity to stake a claim in the World to Come. However, the Tanakh itself (Hebrew Bible, including Torah) does not make such a claim.

There are clearly many parallels between Jewish and Christian eschatology. Although the concept of an afterlife (reward and punishment) is not very clear in Judaism, many of the future events to come are very similar to Christian doctrine. The primary difference is the debate between who will play the role of Messiah - Christians believe it is and always has been Jesus Christ, whereas Jews deny Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophesies and therefore believe the Messiah will be someone else. Both sides believe in an era to come when the word will be ruled from a throne in Jerusalem, where all beings of the earth will follow the one true God.

Islam is rather different from the above. The Qur’an mentions signs of the coming of the Hour, but its ultimate timing is known only by Allah. The Hour marks the end of all earthly things, followed by the resurrection of the body and judgment upon every soul by Allah, determining the fate of all individuals in the afterlife. This resurrection is different from the themes of resurrection recurring in Judaism and Christianity - in Islam, resurrection does not occur on earth, but rather it occurs one time, and for all people, on the Day of Judgment. Also, the Qur’an does not explicitly mention an Antichrist or the Second Coming of Jesus. The reason why many Muslims believe these events will occur is because many Hadiths support their validity.


So basically, Christ comes to earth and kills the believers so they go to heaven then kills the disbelievers so they go to hell. So who does he rule for a thousand years? The agnostics?

Not exactly. According to dispensationalists, Jesus quietly returns to earth and escapes with all of the believers to Heaven. The earth is left behind with only disbelievers, where great sufferings occur during the Tribulations. Jesus and his believers finally return again (most sources say seven years later) to defeat the Antichrist's stronghold over the world and establish the 1000 year rule. Postmillennialists believe Christians too will suffer persecutions during the Tribulations (no Rapture will occur), and their battle against the Antichrist will end in victory as Jesus returns. From this moment on, Jesus will begin his 1000 year reign.

Islam is rather different from the above. The Qur’an mentions signs of the coming of the Hour, but its ultimate timing is known only by Allah. The Hour marks the end of all earthly things, followed by the resurrection of the body and judgment upon every soul by Allah, determining the fate of all individuals in the afterlife. This resurrection is different from the themes of resurrection recurring in Judaism and Christianity - in Islam, resurrection does not occur on earth, but rather it occurs one time, and for all people, on the Day of Judgment. Also, the Qur’an does not explicitly mention an Antichrist or the Second Coming of Jesus. The reason why many Muslims believe these events will occur is because many Hadiths support their validity.

Correct. There is only a Yaum al Qiyamah in Islam and it is for all people and has to do with individual accountability. As you said, the rest of the stuff comes from anecdotes and is probably influenced by Christian and Jewish eschatology.




Not exactly. According to dispensationalists, Jesus quietly returns to earth and escapes with all of the believers to Heaven.

How would he manage that? Even using superior alien abduction techniques. wouldn't it be noticeable if over a billion people simply disappeared from earth?

Correct. There is only a Yaum-ul Qiyamah in Islam and it is for all people and has to do with individual accountability. As you said, the rest of the stuff comes from anecdotes and is probably influenced by Christian and Jewish eschatology.

Since you seem to know Arabic, I have a question to ask you: what is your best translation of 4:157-159, regarding the raising of Jesus to Allah? I am unsure as to whether or not the Qur'an states Jesus never died (which seems to be the popular narrative).


How would he manage that? Even using superior alien abduction techniques. wouldn't it be noticeable if over a billion people simply disappeared from earth?

I think the rest of us are expected to be too preoccupied with famine and warfare to notice. Or ... because the Rapture is a flat-out myth that predominately American Christians have come to accept only in the last century. It certainly is the more comforting viewpoint to believe in.

Since you seem to know Arabic, I have a question to ask you: what is your best translation of 4:157-159, regarding the raising of Jesus to Allah? I am unsure as to whether or not the Qur'an states Jesus never died (which seems to be the popular narrative).

Yup, the verse says directly that although they said they crucified the messiah this is not true, that it is all just "the appearance of it" rather than the truth. I suppose one could say that there is no reason why Jesus would stand out among any others of those time. Retrospectively he has a Presence but at the time he was supposed to have lived, no one actually noticed him or wrote about him. And prophets at the time were a dime a dozen. All his history is posthumous.




I think the rest of us are expected to be too preoccupied with famine and warfare to notice.

Well if heaven is to be filled up with postmillenial dispensationalists, hell might be the more pleasant alternative

Yup, the verse says directly that although they said they crucified the messiah this is not true, that it is all just "the appearance of it" rather than the truth. I suppose one could say that there is no reason why Jesus would stand out among any others of those time. Retrospectively he has a Presence but at the time he was supposed to have lived, no one actually noticed him or wrote about him. And prophets at the time were a dime a dozen. All his history is posthumous.

Thanks; I was a little unsure after reading some conflicting Ahmadiyya writings on the topic.

Thanks; I was a little unsure after reading some conflicting Ahmadiyya writings on the topic.

Thats because whats his name claimed to be a resurrection of Christ, so the even more posthumous history of Jesus had to match with his rebirth

How would he manage that? Even using superior alien abduction techniques. wouldn't it be noticeable if over a billion people simply disappeared from earth? He's only taking the true believers - there aren't that many of them, according to the authorities in the matter.

What is the origin of the belief that Jesus will eliminate all the Jews who reject him on the Day of Rapture? Why do Christians believe this?

How do they reconcile this with the image of the forgiving Jesus?

Gods Forgiveness is always there, waiting for just one thing. People to access it by seeking it. But it is unjust to give forgiveness to people who do not seek it.

So Gods forgiveness is on no practical benefit to those who do not want it.

As for the "Jews" i do not know why you singled them out. All people who reject the Message of the Messiah Jesus will face wrath that includes muslims and false Christians and athiests and a long list of others.

I believe that 144,000 descendants of Abraham will be saved during the times of the return of the Messiah Jesus. So i cannot see God destroying all the Jews.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Are those two distinct things? I'm not up to date on Christian theological details

Isn't the Rapture also the Second Coming?

Yes the Rapture happens on the Day of the second coming.

But you will find some who believe it will happen earlier, i am not one of them.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I can't ever get a straight answer to any of those questions. But basically, the "faithful", the "believers" will be taken up to meet Jesus before all hell breaks loose on Earth for 7 years. Then Jesus returns and takes control of the Earth.

I never did understand why he didn't just get it over with the first time around.

Because the numbers of saints had to be grown to a number of Gods will. That takes time.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So basically, Christ comes to earth and kills the believers so they go to heaven then kills the disbelievers so they go to hell. So who does he rule for a thousand years? The agnostics?

No Christ will not be killing believers. That will be done by the anti-christ and his followers. The main way they shall kill us is by beheading.

There will be a few Christians left on earth when the Messiah Returns and it is they who will experience the rapture. They will be coming back to earth with Jesus and they shall rule the earth with Jesus for 1000 years.

Interesting that another person has given a year 2032. From my research i would say it is 2030. That will be 2000 years since the death and resurrection of the Messiah Jesus. of course biblical years are not exactly the same as modern western calendar years. But they are very close.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

Oh my beliefs are most closely aligned with the Historical premillennialists position.

The belief in the return of the Messiah Jesus and the 1000 year rule is not something that has come about in the last hundered years. It is an ancient belief that was suppressed by the catholic church, because they wanted their rule to be seen as the fulfilment of the 1000 year reagin. They did this by enforcing an official symbolic interpretation of the book of Revelation that many to day call preterisim or amillenialism. This is the belief that Jesus second coming was a spiritual happening and Jesus was in heaven ruling the world through the catholic church.

In early Church History Historical premillennialism had a different name. it was called the Chiliastic doctrine by the early catholic church and was suppressed as heretical.

Here is a right up on it on an Eastern Orthodox website.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/end/chiliasm.shtml


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

He's only taking the true believers - there aren't that many of them, according to the authorities in the matter.

Damn. Beat me to it.

Per my brother with whom I no longer speak, there are maybe 20 to 100 million born again, "saved", Christians on earth. The rapture can safely be tucked away in a global event like--hold on to your seats--a meteor strike or nuclear attack.

Careful about your tongue-in-cheek comments about these Christians, SAM. Remember, you're a Muslim. There are plenty of your thobed and hijabbed brethren who believe in some pretty weird shit too.

~String

Damn. Beat me to it.

Per my brother with whom I no longer speak, there are maybe 20 to 100 million born again, "saved", Christians on earth. The rapture can safely be tucked away in a global event like--hold on to your seats--a meteor strike or nuclear attack.

Careful about your tongue-in-cheek comments about these Christians, SAM. Remember, you're a Muslim. There are plenty of your thobed and hijabbed brethren who believe in some pretty weird shit too.

~String

It will be a meteor strike. But Christian will still be around when that happens.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I stopped praying to Jesus when I realized Jesus was praying to God. Why the middleman?

Careful about your tongue-in-cheek comments about these Christians, SAM. Remember, you're a Muslim. There are plenty of your thobed and hijabbed brethren who believe in some pretty weird shit too.

~String

Sure. Does this mean AlienAbduction&GenocidebyJesus [AAGJ] is no longer a laughing matter?

The funny thing is - this stuff makes Scientologists look superior

No Christ will not be killing believers. That will be done by the anti-christ and his followers. The main way they shall kill us is by beheading.

Beheading is nice, compared to other ways of getting killed, such as being stoned to death.
You really think that the anti-christ and his followers are interested in you getting killed in a nice way?

Well its serendipity. I recently came across a real life instance of one of those who are waiting for this occasion. It was pretty scary :p
Now you know how a lot of atheists feel :p


So basically, Christ comes to earth and kills the believers so they go to heaven then kills the disbelievers so they go to hell. So who does he rule for a thousand years? The agnostics?
lol
I thought only the believers wowill be killed, in order to get them to heaven and out of the anti-Christs hands. Then a 1000 years of reign by the anti-Christ will follow.
This is from memory so it may be utterly flawed..