C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 106-107

"Does loving your enemy mean not punishing him? No, for loving myself does not mean that I ought not to subject myself to punishment--even to death. If one committed a murder, the right Christian thing to do would be to give yourself up to the police and be hanged. It is, therefore, in my opinion, perfectly right for a Christian judge to sentance a man to death or a Christian soldier to kill an enemy. I always have thought so, ever since I became a Christian, and long before the war, and I still think so now that we are at peace. It is no good quoting "Thou shalt not kill." there are two Greek words: the ordinary word to kill and the word to murder. And when Christ quotes that commandment He uses the murder one in all three accounts, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. and I am told there is the same distinction in Hebrew. All killing is not murder any more than all sexual intercourse is adultery. When soldiers came to St. John the Baptist asking what to do, he never remotely suggested that they ought to leave the army: nor did Christ when he met a Roman sergeant-major--what they call a centurion. The idea of the knight--the Christian in arms for defence of a good cause--is one of the great Christian ideas. War is a dreadful thing, and I can respect an honest pacifist, though I think he is entirely mistaken."

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Amen...several recent translations read you shall not murder. That is one of the more common misconceptions about christianity.

What does punishment mean, if not revenge?
Is revenge a good thing? should I kill the person who stole my wages or should I whip my self with chains for harbouring a sex fantasy?
Thou shalt not kill! this is God's law, but you suggest that Christians ought to kill in God's name when a Christian believes that he is fighting a just cause.
Does this mean that God's laws are subject to discretion?
Who has the authority to discern such things?

Where the hell are you people coming from?
Killing, Murdering, what the hell difference does it make? both are the means to the same end.
Can any of you holy and righteous good people show me a sentence of death signed by God?

Well, Vinnie... I disagree with much that Lewis says here.

Although not a pacifist, I believe that there is a great distinction between defending yourself against deadly force which results in the inadvertent death of the attacker and intentionally killing or ordering the killing of another human being, be it a Christian or not.

It is up to God to decide WHEN a mortal life should end.

Tab - you might also ask these good and holy people which one gets to cast the first stone?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

That passage at the top of the thread sounds like somebody creatively interpreting things to justify his own actions. The taking of a life is the taking of a life, no matter what holy phrase or legal term you use to pretty it up.

Either that or God is a lawyer. ;)

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

I was saying amen to vinnie, not tab.

No, the newer translations are NOT people creatively intrepreting the bible. It is the correct intrepretation, believe it or not, King James Version has many errors and garbled meanings. There is a huge difference between murder and killing... is killing someone in self defense murder?

The recently released Encarta Dictionary defines murder as "the crime of killing another person deliberatly and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance..." The books of moses contain many examples of killing allowed by god. "You shall not suffer a female sorceress to live," there are specific times given for when it is/is not okay to kill a burglar. Killing is acceptable to the lord...murder is not.

Corp. Hudson,

Yeah, the OT god was certainly big on killing, and for practically any infraction. Any clue here why so many of us lack respect for the god of the OT?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Corp. Hudson,

I have to agree with Searcher here. You might want to focus on the gospels of Jesus Christ which perfected the Old Testament. Quite a different message from God in person.

How can you lack respect for god, and yet be a christian. If I may use the principles put forth in Job, you can never, under any circumstances, even begin to comprehend god. So how can you lose respect because he was passionate and vengeful? You cannot disrespect the lords acts thousands of years ago, yet claim to love him now. The fact remains that if you believe that the 10 commandments are applicable today, even after the revision Jesus brought to the church, then you must understand that killing is not banned. Most is, but certain things are allowed. You cannot pick and choose what you believe in, and the OT is a large part of the christian belief.

To All,

When murder is committed, the price is higher than any can pay. There is some sense of punishment in a death sentence. More than that, there is the automatic damnation of physical death because you have, by evil choice, undone what God has made in His image. As for self defense, God expects you to both defend your own life and welfare as well as that of the others around you. Front to cover, in the Bible, murder is murder and killing is killing. To murder is to by evil choice without the right authority of God undo the life that God has created in His own image. To kill is to undo the same within God's ordnances.

Love the Lord and be Saved,
ISDAMan

BUT...What about God's actions of killing others????????????? This is totally amazing how christians can somehow justify it..just
because God does it. Have you (christians)
thought about that ...even for a minute???
Or do you just kick into the automatic mode
of thinking..."well, it's ok because God
did it"?????

Searcher,


Yeah, the OT god was certainly big on killing, and for practically any infraction. Any clue here why so many of us lack respect for the god of the OT?

Are you sugesting that there are 2 Gods, the God of the OT and the God of NT? I thought there is only suposed to be 1 God. So God is sam God who whent on a killing spree in the OT!

I have to agree a little with Tab and ISDMAN on this one though.



------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

Corp. Hudson,

God's divine plan for salvation which was prophesied and fulfilled did not change from the Old Testament to the New.

However, when Jesus was alive, he was accused of disrespecting God because he clarified some of the Old Testament beliefs in a way that was considered blasphemous. There were many teachings of the Judaic scribes and pharisees which were denounced by Jesus.

I do not believe that the ten commandments changed, however, Jesus Christ did clarify them for us. He also showed us, through his life and his words, God's divine message of personal salvation which was to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and to live a Christ-like life of right relationships through love.

As Jesus explained when He was here, the deliberate taking of another human beings' life is not included in right relationships through love. To deliberately take another human being's life would be disrespectful to God.

______________________________
Tab - you might also ask these good and holy people which one gets to cast the first stone?
________________________________

John 8
1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"
6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

I'll let my bible do the talking on this one. Niv text notes surrounding these verses:

8:3
"woman caught in adultery".....This sin cannot be committed alone, so the question arises as to why only one defender was brought. This incident was staged to trap Jesus (v. 6), and provision had been made for the man to escape. The woman's accusers must have been especially eager to humiliater her, since they could have kept her in private custody while they spoke to Jesus.

8:5
"to stone such women".....They altered the law a little. The manner of execution was not prescribed unless the woman was a bethrothed virgin (Dt 22:23-24). And the law required execution f both parties (Lev 20:10, Dt 22:22) not just the woman.

8:6
"using this question as a trap".....The Romans did not allow jews to carry out the death sentences, so if Jesus had said to stone here, he could have been in conflict with the Romans. If he had said not to stone her, he could have been accused of being unsupportive of the law.

8:7
"let him be the first".....Jesus' answer disarmed them. Since he spoke of throwing a stone, he could not be accused of failure to uphold the law. But the qualification for throwing it kept anyo nefrom acting.

I see a big differance between this scenario and that of say, Ted Bundy. Am I the only one that sees this?

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Vinnie,

Of course you are not the only one who sees the difference. However, I also see a distinction between this and Lewis' assertion that a Christian judge can righteously impose a death penalty, even if it be the death of another Christian.

One of the issues which I had with Corp. Hudson's post had to do with the Old Testament verse about not suffering a female sorceress to live. He is mistaken if he believes that the killing of such a woman is justified.

A couple of things which most of us are in agreement about is that the deliberate taking of a human life by another human being is wrong and that inadvertent death resulting from self-defense is sad, but justifiable.

I'll see you later!

One of the issues which I had with Corp. Hudson's post had to do with the Old Testament verse about not suffering a female sorceress to live. He is mistaken if he believes that the killing of such a woman is justified.

Okay, so what DOES the passage by not suffering her to live? And while we're at it, what is the provision for male sorcerors? Or is this just more Christian gynophobia?

I keep hearing that Jesus revised and "clarified" the OT. Ask any publisher and they'll tell you that this makes the Bible v.1 outdated and obsolete. Therefore, let's chuck it out.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

Oxygen,

Isrealite slaves had been treated unmercifully by the Egyptians.
The Book of Exodus recounts the history of the oppression by the Egyptians of the Isrealites and their miraculous deliverance by God through Moses, who led them across the Red Sea to Mount Sinai where they entered into a special covenant with the Lord.

During their journey, Moses handed down strict moral, civil and ritualistic laws by which the Isrealites were to become a holy people.


Okay, so what DOES the passage by not suffering her to live?

This passage is taken from some of the "social" laws which were handed down. The chosen people, in their effort to become closer to God, were forbidden from practicing sorcery among them.


And while we're at it, what is the provision for male sorcerors?

Although I did notice many laws which were directed specifically at men (why not the women?) I did not notice such a provision for male sorcery. Perhaps Moses, being a man, did not include men, because, in a way, he himself might have been looked upon by the people as majical or a sorcerer? Or, perhaps there was something else to do with female sorceresses which we are not presently aware of (like the mustard seed)? Or, perhaps these laws were meant to apply to both sexes, but interpretation has gotten in the way? Just a couple of logical guesses here.


Or is this just more Christian gynophobia?

Oxygen, Christians did not even exist at the time. These were social laws for Isrealites during the time of Moses. Christ came much later.


I keep hearing that Jesus revised and "clarified" the OT. Ask any publisher and they'll tell you that this makes the Bible v.1 outdated and obsolete. Therefore, let's chuck it out.

The Old Testament recounts the history of the promise and development of God's divine plan for salvation which took into account the "social" conditions existing at the time. For example, there were also laws handed down concerning how to treat Hebrew slaves because, at the time, people either owned or were slaves - Employment of the times, if you will. Male and female slaves were not treated exactly the same, by the way. These are historical issues, Oxygen, not reserved for Christians.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 06, 2000).]

Flash,

For some years of my life, my job description was that of professional dealing in the trade of death under the authority of the United States Government. Yes, I have thought long and hard about both my own and God's actions in these matters. There is no automatic pilot when it comes to the things of God. We are instructed to study and to be careful that we don't think that we know it all. Also, it is not the child of God that does the justifying in the relationship. It's the other way around only!

Now, I think that I understand were you are coming from in your post. Correct me if I'm wrong. I seem to see you basically saying that there is a lack of regard, involving man, on God's part. Yep, that's basically it. Does that shock you that I would say that? Think about that for just a minute............................................ ... Before I clarify, let me refresh your memory. Do you remember when, in several times in the past, I pointed out that ....... you can kill yourself with anything you want yet, none of it was given so that you could kill yourself. Moreover, you can't create any new matter with which you can kill yourself. This existance is under the control of God. We just think, because of our vast amount of choices that we have the power. ....... do you remember that??? Well,God IS the one in control here and all despite the choices He allows us to have. Well, plain and simple, He's the maker and controller and we belong to Him. If, at any time, He sees fit that you should make the transition from this fleshly realm to the spiritual, it's His right! We are all spiritual beings He has made. He is the one to control when you do and don't go. God only allows us to interfere. There are still consequences that He brings about even if man refuses to enforce them.

O.K., so, what's with this lack of regard for man? The Bible says that God is not a respecter of men. That is to say that He looks up to no one. The Bible also says that man was made lower than the angels. Man is only able to rise above through being covered in, redeemed by, the blood of Christ. The clear relationship is that we are not the big shots here. We are like the computer program trying to tell the programmer to go blow it out of his ear when we defy God. We are, of course, better than any computer programs. The very reason that we have choice is so that we can choose to Love God of our own volition. Unfortunately, you can't give a right choice without the option of not choosing that choice. Therefore, it is black and white. You are either for God or against God. You either choose the plan of the maker or you do not. The life of a person, though important (we are, after all, made higher than much of His creation), is not as impertant as the fact that we are made in the image of God. Not even the angels can say that! To murder and to die in sin (outside of a right relationship with God) is one and the same. In both, you have stripped God of His right to do with your life as He has chosen. The cost is death!!!!!!! The death pennalty is as though it were a physical reflection of what happens in the spiritual. God has the first right and He gives us ours after. Deny Him His right with His image by physical murder and physical death is the cost! Deny Him His right with His image by spiritual murder (going into eternity outside of a right relationship with God) and spiritual death is the cost!

The stone that the builder refused will alway be the head corner stone,
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited January 06, 2000).]

ISDAMan,


The life of a person, though important (we are, after all, made higher than much of His creation), is not as impertant as the fact that we are made in the image of God. Not even the angels can say that!

There are a number of passages in the Bible that make me think that the angels can very well say the same thing, such as Genesis 19:1-16 and Hebrews 13:2. If man is made in God's image, and angels can be mistaken for men, why do you say that the angels are not made in God's image as well?


------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

666,


Are you sugesting that there are 2 Gods, the God of the OT and the God of NT? I thought there is only suposed to be 1 God. So God is sam God who whent on a killing spree in the OT!

Actually, I think there were many gods in the OT, but the one who came out and called himself Jealous and ordered that his people should put no other gods before him, and demanded that people who broke his rules be killed - that's the one I'm referring to here as the god of the OT.

Hmmmm...if the god of the OT is Sam, then Jesus would be the Son of Sam! :eek: But then, Jesus did reveal himself to be the "morning star" in Revelations 22:16...the plot thickens! (Just kidding, just kidding - don't stone me!!)

I know this might come as a surprise to everyone, but for the record I should say that I'm glad Jesus came along and toned down all the hatred, violence and general nastiness of the OT. Those must have been very perilous times to live in before Jesus came and took a stand for what's right, and talked some sense into a lot of people. I really think the world is a better place because he lived, no matter who he really was, and even if it turns out that he only lived on the pages of the NT.

No, those sentiments don't make me a Christian - not by a long shot. I also like Robin Hood, but I certainly wouldn't want to become a "Hoodlum", and I wouldn't want "Hoodlums" insisting that if I don't become one of them I will burn in Hell for all of eternity. I'm just saying that for the most part, Jesus was an alright guy (except for that god-complex thing), and it's really not him or what he stood for that I'm rebelling against - it's his sometimes overzealous followers who want to push their beliefs on everyone else, and sometimes in very unattractive ways.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Vinnie,


I see a big differance between this scenario and that of say, Ted Bundy. Am I the only one that sees this?

Gosh, Vinnie - I must have missed where we were talking about Ted Bundy.

Okay, I'll speak for myself here - I am referring to all the killing in the OT for ridiculous reasons (worshipping other gods, working on the Sabbath, consentual sex outside of marriage, being disrespectful to one's parents, etc.). For example, the OT god demands that if a person tries to get you to worship strange gods, you should take ahold of that person and drag them off to be stoned to death - no matter if it's friends, family members or whatever!

Vinnie, you must admit that there was some major ugliness going on in the OT, which cannot be completely divorced from the NT, regardless of how ugly it is. I believe that this is what most of us are referring to here.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Truestory-Very informative, but I'm still kinda fuzzy on the whole "not suffer her to live" thing. It sounds like a death sentence more than simply making her an outcast.

TS..You are 100% correct when you say the deliberate taking of a persons life is sinful and immoral. That is murder. The accidental killing is justified. Some deliberate killings are justifiable, such as in situations of self-defense, etc.

I do not believe that all witches should be killed, of course not :). I just used that passage to illustrate that, even after forbidding killing, he makes references to it.

Jesus did not make the OT obsolete! He simply fufilled its prophecies, and clarifying several vague points. That is like saying (poor ex., but you get the idea) that we should throw the constitution out and simply use supreme court rulings!

Searcher,

That is a fantastic question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Psalms 8 shows that we are below the angels and above all other creatures.

In some aspects, God's children are equal to the angels in that we will be directly in the glory of God and will never die once with Him. Read Luke 20:36

Hebrews chapters 1 and 2 gives a perfect description of the position of Christ, angles, and man. We know from other areas in the Bible, like Romans, more about the inheritance that God's children gain in Jesus Christ.

It's not really known if some angels just look like us or if all are able to make themselves look like us. At any rate, there is a uniqueness about our imortal sperit that the angels just don't have. You see, God breathed life into us alone. The immage is not physical. In the same way, you are physical flesh. Yet, your image in the mirror is only the look of physical flesh. The reflection we bare of God is the immortal spirit that He has breathed into us. Whe have some of His attributes wothout His glory and power. This flesh is just a robe that we ware for a short time and are appointed to cast off so that we may stand before God and receive the rewards of our deeds. The angels are really intreagued to see what will happen with us in the time of flesh.

God's Word is the instruction book you thought you never had,
ISDAMan

Searcher,

I can't belive I let that typo go!!!!
I ment to say. The God of OT is the same God of NT, who whent on a killing spree.

I am curious, what make syou belive that there was more than 1 God? I think the stark differances between "Gods" behavior in the OT and The NT just gives more light to the fact that the bible was verry well constructed piece of fiction. Mabye not totaly fiction, but certainly heavily based in fiction.

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

ISDAMAN,

Why put the robe on in the first place? Well it's not like we realy had a choice, but I would like to hear what you think. It's one of those things I think about a lot. Manny people belive we here to learn and grow before we move on to the after life. I find this to be a bit silly. What is so hard in the after life that we prepare for it here in a place with so much godness but wraped in so much hell. It would seem to me that if life were the traing grounds then the after life would have to be similar and not much step forward. In fact a step backwards. We uasly use a lesser event/situation to train for a much harder event.

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited January 06, 2000).]

Searcher,

God's law is exact and the standard is quite high. The standard is perfection! There was, while man was under the law, a way made to temporarily deal with man's imperfection. Jesus ushered in the aspect of God's grace and took the punishment for us so that man would no longer have to live under the letter of the law. God is as full of justice, grace, and love, and is as demanding as He ever was. Take, for example, a hologram. Look straight at it and you see one image. Look from the side and you see another. Has the image changed before your eyes? No! Your orientation to the image has changed. The effect you see only seems to be new. It was always there. The same is true of man's orientation to God from the OT to the NT. Nothing has changed except man's orientation. Christ has places us in the position to be able to better see the grace aspect of God. It's now up to man to pay attention.

Love God with all your heart and be free,
ISDAMan

Just because God changed his presentation to us does not dicount his existence. If god had told Abraham to turn the other cheek, he would have been ritualistically raped and beaten to death. As the people around the jews evolved, god allowed the jews to evolve as well. His message has always been the same, he just must present it to us slowly. You dont sit down and have Calculus II taught to you...you must go through years of Arithmetic, Algebra, Gemoetry, etc. to have a base to build upon. The same is true with god and his relationship to the jews.

Im kind of babblin, but you get the idea :)

6,

That is another great question!!!!! To make it easy, only God knows. The most that we know is that He has given us the opportunity to choose to Love Him while here. He never wanted robots. Just look around. God loves to create good and different things. For some reason, He just came up with the idea of flesh. Now, the sin part that makes this place tough to live in, that's not God's fault at all. That's where our own choices come in. The Bible says that we screwed up all of nature by our sin. See, you question has two aspects. You want to know about why flesh and why bad stuff. The bad stuff is because of sin. The robes of flesh,... I don't know,... God just being creative?

Love those that Hate you,
ISDAMan

ISDAMan,

Thank you for your service to both God, your country and your fellow man. It is very much appreciated. :)

Semper Fidelis!

Corp. Hudson,

Thanks for your kind response and your clarification of the use of the sorceress passage.

I hope I did not come across as indicating that I considered the Old Testament to be obsolete... If so, mea culpa!

Just so you know, you didn't come across as babbling... I followed your explanation about the need for certain laws at certain times and the need for a slow development of God's relationship with man. Some of us think we've got it bad now? This was a most horrible, debased world back then... hence, the need for God's intervention. It made perfect sense to me when I first started studying the Bible and I believe you explained it well.

You and ISDMan seem to be doing a great job of putting some things into perspective...

Thank you!


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 07, 2000).]

666,


I am curious, what make syou belive that there was more than 1 God?

There are a number of passages in the OT that talks about multiple gods, either directly or implied, and several that mention "Sons of God". One example is Genesis 1:26, which begins, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...". An account of the "Sons of God" breeding with the daughters of men appears in Genesis 6:1-4. There are numerous admonitions in the OT about not worshipping other gods, which seems unnecessary if there are no other gods to worship. Exodus 22:28 states, "Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people."

There are also a number of "false" gods/goddesses named throughout the OT: Adrammelech (Syria), Anammelech (Babylon), Ashtoreth (Canaan), Baal (Canaan), Baal-peor (Moab), Beelzebub (Philistine), Bel (Babylon), Chemosh (Moab), Dagon (Philistine), Diana (Greek), Jupiter (Roman), Milcom (Ammon), Molech (Ammon), Nebo (Babylon0, Nisroch (Assyria), Rimmon (Syria) and Tammuz (Babylon).

One passage I find particularly interesting in the NT is John 1:18, which states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Of course, there are several passages in the OT that contradict that statement (e.g., in Exodus 33:11 Moses talked face to face with God as a man speaks to his friend), so maybe the question is, which God hath no man seen? And which God was seen by several individuals in the OT?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

Forgive me if this gets long. Anything that you place before God in your life becomes your god. Why,... because that is what you worship. It's true if you place money first, a boyfriend first, model car building first, or anything first. God regards neither man nor his false gods. There is no other God! None of the false gods have any real existance. They are tools of man to excuse his sinful ways against God in Heaven. Anything can be made, by man, into a small "g" false god. God wants us to focus our worship His way because He is the source of all perfection. He is perfect and, for our own good, we need to keep in line with Him. To worship other things is to worship imperfection and invite destruction.

Your Genesis 6:1-6 reference seems to contain the thought that the words, "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.", in chapter 2, carries the idea that something other than humans was being referrer to here. Though, only the Christian can be called a child of Christ, all humans have the life which is the breath of God in them and are children of God. You, yourself, are a child of God. All that is being said in chapters 1-6 is that men saw that women were beautiful. They got together, had some fun, had many children, and were extending away form God. God announces in this passage that He is placing limits on man's number of days upon the earth. That limit being the span of 120 years. Also, giants weren't 50 feet tall. We still have the rare giant today. You know,... those 10 foot tall and taller people. Perhaps, then, some were even taller than the ones we see today. They seem to have been more prevalent back then before the flood than they are today. If two giants were to mate today, we could very well see the start of a whole new race of giants again.

Now, the fact that God refers to Himself as, "Us", is a matter of His being. He is one God manifest in three persons,... Father, Son, and Spirit. It is the same as an egg being shell, white, and yoke. This still is not a full example of God. It is impossible to quantify God down to a matter of physical things. We read in I John 5:7 <FONT COLOR="BLUE"> For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.</FONT>

You have given Exodus 33:11 as an example of a face to face viewing of God. That is incorrect. The Bible says that God spoke with Moses face to face. It says nothing about Moses seeing His face. God hid Himself in a cloudy pillar. You'll see this if you read Exodus 33:9-11 <FONT COLOR="BLUE">And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.</FONT> Now, I can still see you saying that this is no face to face talk. So, here's an example to help you see. Women in the Middle East tend to vial their faces. If you walk up to one and talk to her, though you can't see her face, are you not still talking face to face with her?

Clarity of God's Word comes through His Holy Spirit.
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited January 08, 2000).]