View Full Version : Language/'truth'


Azael
02-07-06, 08:11 PM
Hey, I just wrote this in the last 30 min as a summary of a few thoughts and I'm seeking advice as to which points I should develop further to help people understand/follow the logic contained herein. I must STRESS that reading/understanding this requires a mind able to think both logical and holistically. Thanks in advance :p

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I always hear groups of people take a particular stance on philosophy. Logic as I see it, is universal. The reason we disagree on things in pure philosophy is due a) faulty induction – disagreement on facts/axioms, and b) confusing our language with reality.

As is obvious, language is not a thing, it is a conceptual construct. At a more basic level it is a series of oscillations in space, which are interpreted as sound, the patterns of which are interpreted further as language. It should therefore also be obvious that language conveys no direct knowledge of anything, and is thereby implicit. This means that by mentioning the word “cow”, “day”, “tree” (etc) the construed meaning is dependent upon previous associations with the sounds of these words in the recipient.
This has some implications in terms of truth. An example of this, albeit extreme is the statement “Cows exist”. In analysing this sentence for logical validity, at a basic level we must understand that a cow is a perceptual phenomenon even from the absolutist point of view. Chemically, a cow is a flux of undifferentiated particles, a cause-and-effect chain so complex that we regard the components conceptually rather than as particles. This perceptual phenomenon is the reason we regard a cow to be a discrete thing, whereas science would tell us that (sub-atomically) there is no real division between any two things.
So if it is accepted that a cow as an individual thing is a perceptual construct, then it can be seen that the word cow is dependent upon this perceptual construct, as it relates to a cow as an individual thing rather than describing an actual flow of particles.

Objectivism/Relativism
This insight into language can eliminate many problems in logic, for example the objectivism/relativist debate. From an objectivist’s point of view, as humans we necessarily think in relative terms. For instance, when we conceive of black, we simultaneously conceive of white, as our perception is bound by this dualistic relativism in much the same way that one cannot perceive depth without two eyes – one serving as a point of reference for the other. To elucidate further, when we conceive of anything (thesis), we simultaneously conceive of it’s opposite (antithesis). If we were to conceive of a horse for instance, we necessarily must simultaneously recognise on some level what a horse is not, we would conceive a horse to be everything. While consciously (as per the self-referential mind) we are always bound by this dualistic relativism, the objectivist is really in the same position as the relativist, since being bound by relativism would make objective reality totally irrelevant.
The aforementioned issue with language either adds or detracts whatever truth there is from the objectivist/relativist debate since both philosophies are linguistic and conceptual, and consequently fundamentally divorced from objective reality, while the relativist is left question “There must be something objective which is causing this relativistic phenomenon”.

To get to the point, as humans our existence is both objective and relative, both or neither. To demonstrate the latter scenario, assume you are simply aware without thinking. To you, both objectivism and relativism would blur into one definition – everything would become unified and individuated inextricably. Everything would simply exist and cease to exist. Oddly enough, this direct experience of the world has been prevalent in many forms of mysticism and philosophy throughout the ages (such as the ideas of no-mindness).
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RoyLennigan
02-07-06, 10:26 PM
I've got to agree with every statement here. i have observed so often that we think of things by the words we associate with them, and not the actual thing itself. our words are simply sounds which have been predominantly associated to certain specific memories.

Azael
02-07-06, 10:49 PM
I'm glad that it was comprehensive. I'm not sure to what degree physicists would agree with the "particles in flux" statement, given the whole particle/wave paradox, but I think the point still stands that our thinking/labelling/language is fundamentally divorced from what is *physically* happening, and we often forget this.

Crunchy Cat
02-07-06, 11:51 PM
Azael,

Very well written and easy to understand. I pretty much agree with everything that was stated. A follow-up question to such a great set of assertions could be:

"Is reality pre-disposed towards sentience with a relativistic viewpoint"

Azael
02-08-06, 12:01 AM
Azael,

Very well written and easy to understand. I pretty much agree with everything that was stated. A follow-up question to such a great set of assertions could be:

"Is reality pre-disposed towards sentience with a relativistic viewpoint"
That's definately an interesting question.
I'd argue "Yes", because I don't believe that something sentient can function in the world without creating a relativistic interface. The human brain is a very flukey evolutionary occurance, and it has a massive metabolic rate for such a small mass. I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but the eyes alone receive 5x the information that is processed by the brain (I'm sorry I can't reference this). The point is that the human brain is a very demanding thing, even though it can't nearly process all the information from one sensory organ! So without simplifying reality into a little relativistic model of "cow", "deer", "buffalo", I don't see how anything sentient could function.

But I could be wrong :p

Azael
02-08-06, 12:08 AM
Ok, I still don't have that reference, but the concept of 'lateral inhibition' makes the same point the way I see it
From http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/latinhib.html

Perhaps even more interestingly, the eye actually throws away much of the information it gets, leaving it to the rest of the brain to fill in additional information in its own ways. A characteristic pattern of connections among neurons (nerve cells) in the eyes of most animals (including humans), termed a "lateral inhibition network", is a significant way information is thrown away. Lateral inhibition helps to explain a number of "optical illusions" and, more importantly, provides an excellent example of how the brain is organized to actively "make sense" of the information it gets, rather than to simply absorb and respond to it. In so doing, it provides some valuable insights into the sources of our sense of "reality".

Crunchy Cat
02-08-06, 11:43 AM
That's definately an interesting question.
I'd argue "Yes", because I don't believe that something sentient can function in the world without creating a relativistic interface. The human brain is a very flukey evolutionary occurance, and it has a massive metabolic rate for such a small mass. I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but the eyes alone receive 5x the information that is processed by the brain (I'm sorry I can't reference this). The point is that the human brain is a very demanding thing, even though it can't nearly process all the information from one sensory organ! So without simplifying reality into a little relativistic model of "cow", "deer", "buffalo", I don't see how anything sentient could function.

But I could be wrong :p

That's an equally interesting answer. Yes, I suppose there would have to be mass sensory filtering and conceptul modeling for sentience to work. Assuming reality does have this predisposition and humans are a manifestation of it at a 'macro' level (well at least what we percieve as macro), could there be manifestations of it at other levels? When we think about it, the human brain is a complexity of matter and energy and what is all over the universe? Matter and energy. Evolutionary processes (or similar) might still apply in ways we just have not discovered and for all we know there might very different forms of sentience out there sharing varying degrees of sensory filtering and conceptual modeling equivelants.

Crunchy Cat
02-08-06, 11:47 AM
Ok, I still don't have that reference, but the concept of 'lateral inhibition' makes the same point the way I see it
From http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/latinhib.html

I understand the point and have already seen quite a bit of supportive evidence to date.

Azael
02-08-06, 09:55 PM
That's an equally interesting answer. Yes, I suppose there would have to be mass sensory filtering and conceptul modeling for sentience to work. Assuming reality does have this predisposition and humans are a manifestation of it at a 'macro' level (well at least what we percieve as macro), could there be manifestations of it at other levels? When we think about it, the human brain is a complexity of matter and energy and what is all over the universe? Matter and energy. Evolutionary processes (or similar) might still apply in ways we just have not discovered and for all we know there might very different forms of sentience out there sharing varying degrees of sensory filtering and conceptual modeling equivelants.
Yes, there really never is a limit to the possibilities imo. The way I see it, if we discover another trend in sentience we'll either recognise existing sentience in the future, or learn how to create it. Both options present logistical problems though. How can we verify that anything is really sentient? I believe we only assume other humans/animals are sentient because we 'relate' to them. Since sentience is subjective -- we can't make a measure of how conscious something is, how much pain it's feeling, or if it really experiences as opposed to simply being a reaction-machine.

That's another whole subject in itself. Science can explain human behaviour in terms of neurobiology, but it can't really explain how matter can 'feel'. Thinking about it is intellectual suicide

Spectrum
02-10-06, 05:42 AM
This means that by mentioning the word “cow”, “day”, “tree” (etc) the construed meaning is dependent upon previous associations with the sounds of these words in the recipient. And perhaps also from the symbologies that create the word.