I am looking to leave America and move to Asia, following in the footsteps of wise economists such as Jim Rogers and others. I along with many other College educated citizens in the US take out loans in order to fund their College education. I was told (although I was not shown proof and I am currently unaware as to where that proof lies) that if you give up you American citizenship then all you government debts are expunged. Does anyone know if this is the case?

If this is true I will not become 'a man home to no land', rather I will attempt to attain citizenship in Canada prior to my departure to Asia. Both my wife and my daughter are Canadian citizens.

Any advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

I am looking to leave America and move to Asia, following in the footsteps of wise economists such as Jim Rogers and others. I along with many other College educated citizens in the US take out loans in order to fund their College education. I was told (although I was not shown proof and I am currently unaware as to where that proof lies) that if you give up you American citizenship then all you government debts are expunged. Does anyone know if this is the case?


Your debts are something that will follow you even if you change your citizenship. You see the businesses that you bought stuff from don't care where you are from but that you pay off the debts that you incure. If you move they might find it hard to find you but they eventually will because you will reapply somewhere for credit again and that's when they will reach out and get to you. Why don't you want to pay off debts that you have, trying to cheat the system so you can try to get away with buying stuff and not paying for it? :shrug:

Declare bankruptcy.

A few things to consider:

The US isn't perfect, but renouncing your citizenship will cause you to lose a host of benefits, the biggest of them is the fact that the US sincerely bails its people out when they find themselves in trouble overseas. I can think of, maybe, two countries that do this with more zeal (France and Britain).
It's pretty pathetic to attempt to avoid a debt that you created knowing full well you'd have to pay it back by "renouncing" your citizenship.
No. Giving up your citizenship will not cause you to have your debt expunged. Education debt in the US never goes away. Even if you declare bankruptcy or move away. The US doesn't suddenly become magnanimous to those who give up citizenship. You won't even lose your social security number or be taken out of any system. You will simply loose the right to be a citizen. That's it. Nothing else.
That said, simply moving outside the USA is enough--generally--to keep the creditors from bugging you, so if that's your goal, then there's no need to do anything else. Each nation has their unique laws and--for the most part--our "debt" laws don't allow our creditors to chase you overseas. No need to give up your citizenship.
If you're moving to a place like Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, the Philippines or Taiwan then the debt, itself, might continue to "haunt" you in that most of the Bureaus (TransUnion, Experian, Equifax, Innovis [the rarely used "fourth" bureau] and PRBC [the little known and quirky "fifth" bureau] as well as a few others that do commercial credit: Cortera, SACM and Dunn & Bradstreet) operate all over the world, in most countries, and will link your report scoring in your new nation to your old scores. This is especially true with D&B who operates in every nation on earth. You may not get arrested or get harassed by collectors, but you will have that on your credit report forever (as I said, education loans never go away).
If you're moving to a place like India or Pakistan, you might avoid it altogether because they have their own, independent and not-so-orderly credit monitoring regulations and agencies.


Why is credit so important? Ugh. I started a thread about this about a year ago, and in a nut shell, it follows you everywhere and is even used by companies to determine your "worthiness" before giving you a job. There's no need to monitor your credit like guys like me (I'm a little obsessive), but you should work to protect it as much as possible.

~String

Declare bankruptcy.

Doesn't apply to student loans.

I was told (although I was not shown proof and I am currently unaware as to where that proof lies) that if you give up you American citizenship then all you government debts are expunged. Does anyone know if this is the case?

is this what the "wise economists" taught you to do?

ripoff.

Thanks superstring01 for the good advice. Although I don't care much about the personal debts I have, (they are not much at all). I care more about my federal college loan debt which will always accrue and it seems like it will take me maybe 25 years to finally pay off. That's slavery.

And no I did not hear that information from Jim Rodgers (a wise economist) I received that information from a friend of mine.

Thanks superstring01 for the good advice. Although I don't care much about the personal debts I have, (they are not much at all). I care more about my federal college loan debt which will always accrue and it seems like it will take me maybe 25 years to finally pay off. That's slavery.

And no I did not hear that information from Jim Rodgers (a wise economist) I received that information from a friend of mine.

i'd hardly call it slavery if you opted to incur the debt. you didn't have to.

also, just curious... if islam is really your life, then what does islam say about stealing?

Interesting idea but I'd be more keen on giving up US citizenship if it meant I could move permanently to asia or somewhere without all the laws and bureaucracy of this country. I am not fond of the US war on terror, which is just pathetic NONSENSE they are the terrorists just stay in your own fucking country US idiots stop policing the world, sheesh. Anyways yea if I want to move to another country and live I must have skills they deem worthy on their list, then apply :L I hope one day to move to Australia, a land I feel would offer more to a weird person like me :L They have Kangaroos too :D

I'm curious as to whether a debt can indeed be pursued in a foreign country, even if it's a country that doesn't otherwise give a damn about pursuing Americans fleeing debt. I imagine it can't be legal to owe money and just bail for 10 years as if you were suddenly kidnapped by the Sasquatch and kept prisoner in its lair the whole time. And most countries have some form of extradition treaty for prosecuting people who travel abroad to flee the law.

So if, for example, someone became a Chinese resident to escape a debt in the US, wouldn't the original debtor be able to sell the debt to a Chinese investor and have the sale legally recognized in both countries? At that point, he would owe the Chinese banks money, and they would probably be at his door faster than the fire department to pick it up.

Most likely the host country will know you are a crook though.

So if, for example, someone became a Chinese resident to escape a debt in the US, wouldn't the original debtor be able to sell the debt to a Chinese investor and have the sale legally recognized in both countries? At that point, he would owe the Chinese banks money, and they would probably be at his door faster than the fire department to pick it up.

God has a sense of humor;
it would be more like the company you owed money to lives in the country you are moving to.

Declare bankruptcy.

Give bad advice to people.

Student loans are probably the biggest bullshit in the US and looks like never clearly explained. Basicly anyone can qualify for it, and yes, it stays with you forever. There is only one other thing like that, childsupport.

Bankruptcy clears everything except these 2 things.

Now why student loans are BS? Because about half of the students in colleges shouldn't be there at all. There is an inflation of the value of a college degree, due to cheap and aviable student loans. Student loans are a good thing, for qualified people, who have a realistic idea what they want to be. But to go to college on a student loan and study basketwaving and similar BS topics, that is criminal and people end up having issues like the OP...

Give bad advice to people.

Student loans are probably the biggest bullshit in the US and looks like never clearly explained. Basicly anyone can qualify for it, and yes, it stays with you forever. There is only one other thing like that, childsupport.

Bankruptcy clears everything except these 2 things.

Now why student loans are BS? Because about half of the students in colleges shouldn't be there at all. There is an inflation of the value of a college degree, due to cheap and aviable student loans. Student loans are a good thing, for qualified people, who have a realistic idea what they want to be. But to go to college on a student loan and study basketwaving and similar BS topics, that is criminal and people end up having issues like the OP...

issues? like poor planning and/or no morals? give me a break, really. :rolleyes:

Student loans are probably the biggest bullshit in the US and looks like never clearly explained. Basicly anyone can qualify for it, and yes, it stays with you forever. There is only one other thing like that, childsupport.

Bankruptcy clears everything except these 2 things.

Now why student loans are BS? Because about half of the students in colleges shouldn't be there at all. There is an inflation of the value of a college degree, due to cheap and aviable student loans. Student loans are a good thing, for qualified people, who have a realistic idea what they want to be. But to go to college on a student loan and study basketwaving and similar BS topics, that is criminal and people end up having issues like the OP...

Really? Just exactly who was it that held a gun to their head and FORCED them to go to college in the first place????????

As I recall, first offense for stealing under Islamic law is the removal of the left hand via saber.

If Islam is indeed your life, then you will need to shed that hand if you are intent on stealing the money that you 'borrowed' under the pretense of studying at university.

If you have merely made a poor choice of major and are not reaping the anticipated benefits, than man up to your responsibility and pay the man as you promised.

issues? like poor planning and/or no morals?

Issues like buying into the "college degree for everyone" and "you can efford it too" BS.

What high school students should understand that college is a BUSINESS (they educate basicly anyone for money) and education is an INVESTMENT.

They made a bad investment, most likely based on faulty information. Getting a student loan shouldn't be as easy as getting a mortgage 5 years ago, but at least you can walk away from the mortgage in a bankruptcy.

So beside the student, I blame the government and the education system too for leaving them with a non cancellable payment for the rest of their lifes.

How many of the high school cancellors telling this honestly to the students? Very few... If you throw money at an 18 year old, he/she will take it without hesitation...Just like the low earning people the high mortgages.

Issues like buying into the "college degree for everyone" and "you can efford it too" BS.

What high school students should understand that college is a BUSINESS (they educate basicly anyone for money) and education is an INVESTMENT.

They made a bad investment, most likely based on faulty information. Getting a student loan shouldn't be as easy as getting a mortgage 5 years ago, but at least you can walk away from the mortgage in a bankruptcy.

So beside the student, I blame the government and the education system too for leaving them with a non cancellable payment for the rest of their lifes.

How many of the high school cancellors telling this honestly to the students? Very few... If you throw money at an 18 year old, he/she will take it without hesitation...Just like the low earning people the high mortgages.

i don't buy this for one minute, and even if i did, being stupid is not an excuse. this guy isn't even trying to pay back his loans, he just wants to skip out on them. i paid back my loans. i also planned ahead, and i knew exactly how much money i was borrowing and the terms. it's not fucking rocket science. also, i don't know about the majority, but my high school counselors were shit; they didn't help me with shit.

bottom line, if you don't want the debt, then don't go to school. that's very easy.

As I recall, first offense for stealing under Islamic law is the removal of the left hand via saber.

Heh. Nice one.

Here is the deal, the US has agreements with some countries that allow the US government to garnish wages, property, etc . of people living in those countries (e.g, Canada). So even if you flee to a country that has no such agreement today, there is no guarantee that will be the case tomorrow or a year from now or ten years from now. The US government has some pretty long arms.

Two Rodgers is not an economist. He is a pundit and a salesman. There is a difference.

How immoral is that? Leaving the US with the hopes of expunging some debts? These are your debts so you should be responsible for them. You knew what you were getting into right before going into debt.

Why not just get a high paying job overseas in a country whose cost of living is low to pay off your debts quickly?

Why not just get a high paying job overseas in a country whose cost of living is low to pay off your debts quickly?

Yeah, why oh why??? (I mean seriously, like it is that easy)

Student loans are probably the biggest bullshit in the US and looks like never clearly explained. Basicly anyone can qualify for it, and yes, it stays with you forever. There is only one other thing like that, childsupport. Bankruptcy clears everything except these 2 things.Three things. You forgot taxes. After a judge approves your petition for bankruptcy you are still liable for your student loans, your child support payments, and your past-due taxes (with interest).

If you have any large debts to the government, you attempt to leave, and fail for any reason, they'll put you on a watch list and it will be very difficult to make a second attempt. You'll probably have to sneak across the Mexican border hiding in the back of a truck with no ventilation or air conditioning.

Give bad advice to people.

Student loans are probably the biggest bullshit in the US and looks like never clearly explained. Basicly anyone can qualify for it, and yes, it stays with you forever. There is only one other thing like that, childsupport.

Bankruptcy clears everything except these 2 things.

Now why student loans are BS? Because about half of the students in colleges shouldn't be there at all. There is an inflation of the value of a college degree, due to cheap and aviable student loans. Student loans are a good thing, for qualified people, who have a realistic idea what they want to be. But to go to college on a student loan and study basketwaving and similar BS topics, that is criminal and people end up having issues like the OP...

I hear you ! I think you are a little harsh . I believe in basket weaving , The economic system don't . Production is the name of the game if you all don't know . It is the reality we live in . We are consumers to the power structures that be . The system is dependent on consumers consuming . Growth creates wealth . If you don't grow your market share and improve profits then your value goes down . The system sucks and is social slavery . If the world contracts the ponzi scheme is up . It is all just a matter of time for when the system implodes. O.K. I am veering off course . College is a business , Churn em burn em

islam doesn't allow loans with interest. it's one of the biggest red X signs.
"Riba", it's called.

If you don't grow your market share and improve profits then your value goes down .

Although this is rather off-topic, I think it's well worth pointing out.

The statement I've quoted above is one of the BIGGEST myths there ever was in economics and capitalism!!! I see people repeating it time and time again here - they never seem to learn.

Market share and profits absolutely do not HAVE to grow for a business to be *highly* successful. A company can have a stable market and consistently show a 10% profit year after year and pay a similar amount in dividends to its shareholders (the owners). If it continues in that vein FOREVER it is still making money and doing quite well without adding a single element to EITHER market share or profits.

I simply cannot understand why intelligent people can't comprehend something so glaringly simple. :shrug:

Although this is rather off-topic, I think it's well worth pointing out.

The statement I've quoted above is one of the BIGGEST myths there ever was in economics and capitalism!!! I see people repeating it time and time again here - they never seem to learn.

Market share and profits absolutely do not HAVE to grow for a business to be *highly* successful. A company can have a stable market and consistently show a 10% profit year after year and pay a similar amount in dividends to its shareholders (the owners). If it continues in that vein FOREVER it is still making money and doing quite well without adding a single element to EITHER market share or profits.

I simply cannot understand why intelligent people can't comprehend something so glaringly simple. :shrug:

true enough..but the value is dependent on what one compares it with..
is the value rated in growth or profit?
if profit, your argument holds true, but not with growth.
(i would consider my company successful if i had a little money left over at the end of the bills.)

true enough..but the value is dependent on what one compares it with..
is the value rated in growth or profit?
if profit, your argument holds true, but not with growth.
(i would consider my company successful if i had a little money left over at the end of the bills.)

Growth isn't important once a reasonable level has been attained. Just as you said in your parenthetical statement, it's the bottom line that really counts.

Although this is rather off-topic, I think it's well worth pointing out.

The statement I've quoted above is one of the BIGGEST myths there ever was in economics and capitalism!!! I see people repeating it time and time again here - they never seem to learn.

Market share and profits absolutely do not HAVE to grow for a business to be *highly* successful. A company can have a stable market and consistently show a 10% profit year after year and pay a similar amount in dividends to its shareholders (the owners). If it continues in that vein FOREVER it is still making money and doing quite well without adding a single element to EITHER market share or profits.

I simply cannot understand why intelligent people can't comprehend something so glaringly simple. :shrug:
The thing you don't get is expanding markets . When you are talking percentages funny things happen and if you don't reach a certain target in market share you get left behind or gobbled up by competitors working to get your market share so they can lower there price because now they can LOWER THERE PROFIT PERCENTAGE. You need to know how the real world works . If you got a niche business with out competition or have a patten and can only make the product your self, Fine and dandy , but one day the patten will run out and competitors will take a good "percentage" of your market share and in order for you to maintain your comfortable production levels enough to pay overhead , salaries . and what have you your going to have to attract more market share or go belly up . 10% of a dollar is what?if you only make a dollar you are screwed, Are you a progressive in the computer industry ? You might have it good now and be thinking about your endless customer base , or you may even be doing just fine with your same old same old customers every day the same , That will change in time . Enjoy it while it lasts. The Young buck carpenters thought like that when there was good times not knowing days like these were in there futures .
O.K. you can wait and see what happens when emerging markets take more U.S. G.D.P. and produce it at a cheaper rate .

O.K. I am getting way off . You should start a new thread about this Topic . See if we can dig out the truth . Is Expansionism related to growing wealth? Or something like that

You also are not taking into consideration inflation and the cost of raw materials . Supply and demand is dependent on quantities. If it becomes scarce the cost sky rockets and the business is no longer stable . So what happens , More companies "Expand" into the markets because of the added value in raw materials . Right now you know Gold mining is at an all time high because of the added value . So if your a business person fresh out of school you might be thinking well that just means more dollars by way of ten percent added on the new cost of goods so I ain't affected , unless you price your self out of the market , like gas hitting historic highs in 2008 , Not to mention presser on raw materials from emerging markets .

O.K. I know my post is losing coherency. The point is there are lots of factors specific to lots of businesses and a blanket statement does not cover the worlds beast

You also are not taking into consideration inflation and the cost of raw materials . Supply and demand is dependent on quantities. If it becomes scarce the cost sky rockets and the business is no longer stable . So what happens , More companies "Expand" into the markets because of the added value in raw materials . Right now you know Gold mining is at an all time high because of the added value . So if your a business person fresh out of school you might be thinking well that just means more dollars by way of ten percent added on the new cost of goods so I ain't affected , unless you price your self out of the market , like gas hitting historic highs in 2008 , Not to mention presser on raw materials from emerging markets .

O.K. I know my post is losing coherency. The point is there are lots of factors specific to lots of businesses and a blanket statement does not cover the worlds beast

Nope, you've got some good ideas but you still don't see what I'm getting at - and my point is VERY valid.

Let's take one real company and get you to think a little more in-depth, OK? ;) (And also remember that your concern about inflation is a bogus one, really. Your profit percentage always takes inflation into account.)

Here's one - Verizon. Even though they are loosing money as the wireline business continues to shrink, they are still maintaining approx. 41 cents per share which is a tremendous amount. The majority of that comes from wireless revenues though they have other ventures as well. All they have to do is maintain their customer base - get new ones as old ones drop out (what they call "churn"). They can do so by expanding their network, selling ever-increasing capabilities with their phones and maintaining competitive rates. They do NOT need to add a SINGLE new customer to maintain that level of profitability as long as they keep replacing the ones they loose.

They can also do some things to help hold onto that customer base - like improving customer service.

So the bottom line is that they are already big enough and really have NO need to expand in order to remain successful and quite profitable. Really -it's just that simple.

islam doesn't allow loans with interest. it's one of the biggest red X signs.
"Riba", it's called.

Too bad. We do allow loans with interest. I guess he should have gone to live in Islam.

Nope, you've got some good ideas but you still don't see what I'm getting at - and my point is VERY valid.

Let's take one real company and get you to think a little more in-depth, OK? ;) (And also remember that your concern about inflation is a bogus one, really. Your profit percentage always takes inflation into account.)

Here's one - Verizon. Even though they are loosing money as the wireline business continues to shrink, they are still maintaining approx. 41 cents per share which is a tremendous amount. The majority of that comes from wireless revenues though they have other ventures as well. All they have to do is maintain their customer base - get new ones as old ones drop out (what they call "churn"). They can do so by expanding their network, selling ever-increasing capabilities with their phones and maintaining competitive rates. They do NOT need to add a SINGLE new customer to maintain that level of profitability as long as they keep replacing the ones they loose.

They can also do some things to help hold onto that customer base - like improving customer service.

So the bottom line is that they are already big enough and really have NO need to expand in order to remain successful and quite profitable. Really -it's just that simple.

Increasing capabilities is expansion my friend. It is a component of internal growth . I rest my case . I understand percentage pretty good seeing how I ran a corporation for the last 20 years . Now here is a scenario for you , Signed government contracts with production clauses in them and if not met daily fines are leaved against the total amount of the contract. You have estimated X amount of compensation for providing the product . O.K. normal markets go haywire and the cost of raw materials goes up . Your slippage in the over all job now is in jeopardy, yet a new corporation is coming on line in the next month to provide the raw material at the old price . So you fined the equilibrium to minimize the loss of expected profits . The profits end up in actual out come lets say 5% , yet or half of the expected dollar amount of the original expected profits . Was it only 5% or was it more than 5%? Lets say the new cost of doing business was increased because of the cost of going over your time limit and your being penalized or the cost of buying raw materials at a higher cost. The Job cost more so in reality the projected profits should have been higher . Lost revenue in the way of profits that would have been there if the expected glitch in market fluctuations had have been known . Course cell phone providers got us by the nads cause they can raise rates . Everybody wants a cell phone , even little kids , Flat screen T.V.'s too

islam doesn't allow loans with interest. it's one of the biggest red X signs. "Riba", it's called.They get around that by structuring the loan differently and simply calling it a kind of fee. Mohammed Yunus founded the Grameen bank, revolutionized the Bangladeshi economy, and won the Nobel Prize, by making "micro-loans" to people trying to start micro-businesses, on which the "interest" is charged in creative ways that don't violate the religion.

BTW, the medieval Christians mistranslated the Old Testament in the same way: rendered a particular Hebrew word as "usury" rather than simply "interest." This was one of the many reasons for the Dark Ages: their economy was stifled for lack of capital. However, they did not find a reason to believe that it was immoral to borrow money. So the Jews, who knew how to translate the Old Testament correctly because their scholars could all read Hebrew fluently, happily lent them their money at interest. As a result the Jews became Europe's bankers.

The Christians decided the reason for this was that they were in league with the devil, refusing to recognize their own stupidity.

They get around that by structuring the loan differently and simply calling it a kind of fee. Mohammed Yunus founded the Grameen bank, revolutionized the Bangladeshi economy, and won the Nobel Prize, by making "micro-loans" to people trying to start micro-businesses, on which the "interest" is charged in creative ways that don't violate the religion.

BTW, the medieval Christians mistranslated the Old Testament in the same way: rendered a particular Hebrew word as "usury" rather than simply "interest." This was one of the many reasons for the Dark Ages: their economy was stifled for lack of capital. However, they did not find a reason to believe that it was immoral to borrow money. So the Jews, who knew how to translate the Old Testament correctly because their scholars could all read Hebrew fluently, happily lent them their money at interest. As a result the Jews became Europe's bankers.

The Christians decided the reason for this was that they were in league with the devil, refusing to recognize their own stupidity.

Oh Faggle you are a smart Guy . I like that " In League with the "Devil " Translation from English to symbolism cause I like you Bro . "The White American Man with his plastic finger " I got plastic finger from a Jimmi Hendrix song . The lyric went something like " Get away from me White Man with your plastic finger . I forget . Great song , wish I remembered enough to google it .

HRE Constantine's burning all of the books he could lay his hands on also certainly helped usher in the Dark Ages...as did his (very silly) mother. There was something about a "little ice age" too, and some kind of a plague thingie.

Bubonic, I think they called it. ;)

HRE Constantine's burning all of the books he could lay his hands on also certainly helped usher in the Dark Ages...as did his (very silly) mother. There was something about a "little ice age" too, and some kind of a plague thingie.

Bubonic, I think they called it. ;)

I like his mother . She found the true cross on my birthday . Makes Me the Carpenter feel special . She was probably as silly as Me . I think maybe she was ? Her and Mary Magdalene. Those were some wild and crazy gals , I got to believe they were . His story makes Me think it is true

HRE Constantine's burning all of the books he could lay his hands on also certainly helped usher in the Dark Ages...as did his (very silly) mother. There was something about a "little ice age" too, and some kind of a plague thingie. Bubonic, I think they called it.Actually the plague was a boost to the European economy. It killed one-third of the population, so everyone ended up with 50% more wealth. Another stimulus that occurred about a century later was the importation of coffee from Ethiopia. Europeans had let the Roman sewers deteriorate so the continent was one giant cesspool and the water was undrinkable, so everybody drank beer and was buzzed all the time. When they started drinking coffee instead, the continent's average IQ increased by about thirty points. ;)

On a side note, how many posts do I need to get an avatar pic and message that replaces "RegisteredUser"? [The website finds me incapable of posting my own threads, I hit the post buttons and get nothing but a white page, a clear error]

They get around that by structuring the loan differently and simply calling it a kind of fee. Mohammed Yunus founded the Grameen bank, revolutionized the Bangladeshi economy, and won the Nobel Prize, by making "micro-loans" to people trying to start micro-businesses, on which the "interest" is charged in creative ways that don't violate the religion.


they can get around it in a million and one ways, and many islamic banks do.
but many islamic banks don't, they bring profit by investing the money kept at their bank, i don't know if they offer loans, as there's nothing in it for them.. there are many good books on islamic finance, if you want me to recommend a few.

there's a rule in islamic finance that "any loan that generates profit is Riba or usury", the only allowed philosophy behind loans is good will and trying to help others, nothing else.

I was told (although I was not shown proof and I am currently unaware as to where that proof lies) that if you give up you American citizenship then all you government debts are expungedNo, that is not true.


Declare bankruptcy.This isn't possible with student loans.


Jim Rodgers was rich WHEN he moved to Singapore. Yeah, he's still rich.

If you're a mechanical engineer there may be some good paid work in Asia. Some hightech skill involved with transporting goods via ship? That aside, there's always teaching English. Doesn't pay well, but, your kids could learn a new culture and language. There's not a lot of highly paid jobs waiting in China for Americans if that's what you're thinking. A soft life in Thailand may be possible if you can come up with something they want and need. Remember there are LOTS of westerners in "Asia" and have been for 400 years. They militarily colonized the entire region not long ago.

Actually the plague was a boost to the European economy. It killed one-third of the population, so everyone ended up with 50% more wealth. Another stimulus that occurred about a century later was the importation of coffee from Ethiopia. Europeans had let the Roman sewers deteriorate so the continent was one giant cesspool and the water was undrinkable, so everybody drank beer and was buzzed all the time. When they started drinking coffee instead, the continent's average IQ increased by about thirty points. ;)

Had a tiny effect on labour market systems as well. Bienvenue, medieval young rural UMC economics.


there's a rule in islamic finance that "any loan that generates profit is Riba or usury", the only allowed philosophy behind loans is good will and trying to help others, nothing else.

I guess he's only defaulting on good will then. :rolleyes:

Hey guys, let's go easy on the OP. I doubt he/she's thinking "Heh heh, I'm just here to worship Islam and screw the banks over while I'm at it." He/she's probably in a very stressful situation and feeling all kinds of regret over whatever happened to get them in that situation, so let's all try to be a bit more helpful yeah? I'm sure most of us are firmly against the idea of fleeing a country just to escape a debt and/or bad credit rating, so let's offer some constructive suggestions on how the OP can deal with it instead of bailing.

Has anyone suggested the OP might consider seeking financial counseling? There are professionals who understand the issues at both the fiscal and psychological levels and could perhaps be of some assistance, just like there are counselors for troubled marriages and other personal issues. For my own part, the only reason I mentioned banks selling someone's debt to a foreign country is to find out whether this is actually done in practice, the way it's done when a creditor sells an unpaid debt to a collection agency at a reduced loss. But even more at issue, I don't know of any foreign countries that would accept someone in violation of the laws in their own home country, unless they're bringing a giant haul of money with them. I couldn't even see my Canadian government sheltering the OP from American prosecution unless he/she can provide evidence that returning to the US puts them in danger of serious harm.

they can get around it in a million and one ways, and many islamic banks do.
but many islamic banks don't, they bring profit by investing the money kept at their bank, i don't know if they offer loans, as there's nothing in it for them.. there are many good books on islamic finance, if you want me to recommend a few.

there's a rule in islamic finance that "any loan that generates profit is Riba or usury", the only allowed philosophy behind loans is good will and trying to help others, nothing else.

I've read on these forums that Islamic money lenders can still charge interest on the profits once a venture proves successful. Is that true? If so it would be more generous than charging interest whether the venture succeeds or fails, but that wouldn't be the same as loaning purely in the interest of helping.

Yeah, why oh why??? (I mean seriously, like it is that easy)

I meant "high paying" relative to the country you are working for. It's not hard to get a 30,000 USD/year job in South Korea and be able to save $1500 a month to pay down debts. Hell, in Taiwan you can make 45K+ a year and save even more. Some countries will pay a lot (again, relative to them) to have American talent. Though, I suppose the OP doesn't have any if he lacks the integrity in his life to pay his own debts.

How much does it cost to study in the USA anyway, why you should be indebted for so long...?? Here in Germany, it used to be free of charge, but since 3 years ago, everybody must pay around 500 Euro tuition fee per semester plus another 200 Euro for semester transportation (semester train/bus ticket). As a student, if I work only in the weekend, I can get between 400-600 Euro a month, so I have no problem paying my semester tuition fee. No additional entrance fee.

And the reason they started charging tuition fee is because nobody wanted to graduate on time (a.k.a. lazy), everybody was too relax. At least, thats what I heard in one TV interview with a CDU politician (the party of the chancellor).

How much does it cost to study in the USA anyway, why you should be indebted for so long...?? Here in Germany, it used to be free of charge, but since 3 years ago, everybody must pay around 500 Euro tuition fee per semester plus another 200 Euro for semester transportation (semester train/bus ticket). As a student, if I work only in the weekend, I can get between 400-600 Euro a month, so I have no problem paying my semester tuition fee. No additional entrance fee.

And the reason they started charging tuition fee is because nobody wanted to graduate on time (a.k.a. lazy), everybody was too relax. At least, thats what I heard in one TV interview with a CDU politician (the party of the chancellor).

The answer to that depends on what university you attend. Tuition at top schools could run 40k US dollars per year. And then you have to factor in living costs and book expenses on top of that number. State universities are less expensive. Graduate schools are pretty expensive. I was recently quoted 80k dollars tuition for two year masters program.

The answer to that depends on what university you attend. Tuition at top schools could run 40k US dollars per year. And then you have to factor in living costs and book expenses on top of that number. State universities are less expensive. Graduate schools are pretty expensive. I was recently quoted 80k dollars tuition for two year masters program.

40 000 USD/year?? Don't u mean maybe 4000? Are you a medical student or what? I know and heard that it is expensive in the USA, but 40 THOUSANDS???

In Indonesia, I use to pay 30 Euro per semester (during my BSc), and thats already too expensive for us!!!

Damn! Don't be jealous, but at the age of 32, by studying 4 years in Germany, I have been able to buy a house and a small land for my parent in Indonesia (coz it's cheap to buy house and land there), and I still have 5 digits saving here in German bank, although I admit that I don't spend my money to buy unnecessary things and I rarely travel. I also still paying for my brothers education who are studying in home country.

40 000 USD/year?? Don't u mean maybe 4000? Are you a medical student or what? I know and heard that it is expensive in the USA, but 40 THOUSANDS???

In Indonesia, I use to pay 30 Euro per semester (during my BSc), and thats already too expensive for us!!!

Damn! Don't be jealous, but at the age of 32, by studying 4 years in Germany, I have been able to buy a house and a small land for my parent in Indonesia (coz it's cheap to buy house and land there), and I still have 5 digits saving here in German bank, although I admit that I don't spend my money to buy unnecessary things and I rarely travel. I also still paying for my brothers education who are studying in home country.

There are trade offs to be certain, all the money the top notch universities have allows them to invest in crazy expensive research. On top of that, they still get grants from large corporations and government institutions to conduct research on their behalf. The result of this can be seen in the disproportionately high number of American universities at the top of the "Best" lists, those that churn out top graduates in their field and those that are at the forefront of new technologies and techniques.

On the other hand, the European schools (except a few) have a "more is better" approach and get the "other half" of the expense from generous European governments.

Here in the US, an inexpensive education can be found (there are, literally 4,000 colleges and universities here). It's just that there are a lot of expensive ones and they are the ones everybody wants to go to.

~String

There are trade offs to be certain, all the money the top notch universities have allows them to invest in crazy expensive research. On top of that, they still get grants from large corporations and government institutions to conduct research on their behalf. The result of this can be seen in the disproportionately high number of American universities at the top of the "Best" lists, those that churn out top graduates in their field and those that are at the forefront of new technologies and techniques.

On the other hand, the European schools (except a few) have a "more is better" approach and get the "other half" of the expense from generous European governments.

Here in the US, an inexpensive education can be found (there are, literally 4,000 colleges and universities here). It's just that there are a lot of expensive ones and they are the ones everybody wants to go to.

~String

Well, yea, if you say so. I know that the best education in the world is in the USA. However, I don't think it's good for poor people, especially if they are not bright. I mean, to take a life-long loan and couldn't pay it back I think isn't a very wise way to live, you must have a stressful life! In my opinion, if you can't afford for education, don't take loan, just send your kids to study in Europe. Some German universities are also world class universities, like TU München, Heidelberg (for the one who want to study medicine, especially), etc. In the Netherlands also, I heard the quality of education is very good, and you can study in English in that country, but I don't know how much people must pay there. Anyway, German language is also not hard, once you live here, you can learn it well eventually. Me, if I have children one day, I will educate them in home country until they finish undergraduate degree so that they can make networks with the people there, and send them to Germany if they wish to do a master or PhD degree. To take a loan is a big no no. Unless I am suddenly rich, I will never send my children to study in the USA. Although, no one asks.... :-p

Well, yea, if you say so. I know that the best education in the world is in the USA. However, I don't think it's good for poor people, especially if they are not bright. I mean, to take a life-long loan and couldn't pay it back I think isn't a very wise way to live, you must have a stressful life! In my opinion, if you can't afford for education, don't take loan, just send your kids to study in Europe. Some German universities are also world class universities, like TU München, Heidelberg (for the one who want to study medicine, especially), etc. In the Netherlands also, I heard the quality of education is very good, and you can study in English in that country, but I don't know how much people must pay there. Anyway, German language is also not hard, once you live here, you can learn it well eventually. Me, if I have children one day, I will educate them in home country until they finish undergraduate degree so that they can make networks with the people there, and send them to Germany if they wish to do a master or PhD degree. To take a loan is a big no no. Unless I am suddenly rich, I will never send my children to study in the USA. Although, no one asks.... :-p

It is all about having value in America . See our Government tells us we have no value unless we have a piece of paper that says we have value . Otherwise we are scum that uses up resources that people with value deserve more cause they have a piece of paper that says they have value . It is not always true for in America you can rise up and create your own wealth if you have the tenacity and will power. It is dwindling though. Becoming much harder to rise up . You just about have to cheat your way to success anymore. So pay the high cost of education or be scum as it relates to the work force. The cost is High because of the high pay of teachers , professors and administration . Administration now a days seems to make more than Teachers is the funny thing. Administration is eating up the world and what do they do ? Keep records ? , American Universities are businesses that churn out pieces of paper that insinuate you have some kind of value . The more expensive the the paper cost you the more it insinuates you have value . It is really kind of idiotic cause in reality butt loads of the churned out people have no more value than a Vietnam drunken homeless Veteran on the street . Give Me a Drink
Anyway back to my point

It is all about having value in America . See our Government tells us we have no value unless we have a piece of paper that says we have value . Otherwise we are scum that uses up resources that people with value deserve more cause they have a piece of paper that says they have value . It is not always true for in America you can rise up and create your own wealth if you have the tenacity and will power. It is dwindling though. Becoming much harder to rise up . You just about have to cheat your way to success anymore. So pay the high cost of education or be scum as it relates to the work force. The cost is High because of the high pay of teachers , professors and administration . Administration now a days seems to make more than Teachers is the funny thing. Administration is eating up the world and what do they do ? Keep records ? , American Universities are businesses that churn out pieces of paper that insinuate you have some kind of value . The more expensive the the paper cost you the more it insinuates you have value . It is really kind of idiotic cause in reality butt loads of the churned out people have no more value than a Vietnam drunken homeless Veteran on the street . Give Me a Drink
Anyway back to my point


How much do teachers and professor earn in the USA?? In Germany, I know that my professor earns about 6000 Euro a month (before tax), and I think they are probably paid by tax money (since the students pay almost nothing), but they still have a quite decent life. That you pay so high for education, it must be because there are markets (people who are willing to pay that much). What I don't understand is, the people who take loan, like the one in the OP. He couldn't pay it back because he doesn't get a good job, yes? It means paying so much (having a "high value" as you say) does not guarantee you to get a good job, so what's the point of paying much? I think it is better that you have a bad job or ordinary job, but live without debts. At least, that's what I am thinking.....

p.s.: I am not gonna check your reply in the next couple of hours coz I'd like to take a walk a bit. C ya

40,000 USD/year?? Don't u mean maybe 4000? Are you a medical student or what? I know and heard that it is expensive in the USA, but 40 THOUSANDS???
No, that is not a typographical error. Tuition, books, lab fees, etc., can easily cost that much at one of our better (or more prestigious, anyway) private universities, and as much as $60K at a few of the most elite schools.

Public universities are considerably more affordable, and there's where you could knock off one of those zeroes. If you're a resident of the state, anyway. Tuition for students from another state is considerably higher, but still not as high as at the top private schools.

Many of the top-tier public universities are as good as the elite schools. A degree from the University of California at Los Angeles or the College of William and Mary (a public university in Virginia) is on a par with Yale, Stanford and Notre Dame.

America's two top private universities for science and engineering, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology ("MIT") and the California Institute of Technology ("Caltech") are (arguably) in a class by themselves, yet graduates in those fields from other institutions, even modestly-priced state-run schools, have become famous scientists.

In the USA the federal government does not have schools. All government schools are run by the individual states, counties and cities. Most states have a two- or three-tier system. In California, the University of California is the top tier, with almost 200,000 students on ten campuses; some of them have medical, dental, veterinary and/or law schools.

The California State Universities, with twice as many students on 23 campuses, attract students with more modest budgets, and perhaps more modest academic records. Many of them have specialized programs geared to their communities, for example, Humboldt State University near our home in the redwood forest grants degrees in forestry. All universities grant Bachelor, Master and Doctor degrees. The State Universities have very modest fees (by today’s standards), making them attractive to students who can’t qualify for scholarships, as well as those whose records aren’t quite good enough to be accepted by the top tier.

There is also a California Community College system with more than 100 campuses and three million students. These colleges only have two-year programs that culminate in Associate degrees. This qualifies the graduates for many vocational careers, but can also transform a student with a poor high school record into a scholar with better grades who can transfer to a university in the middle of his education and complete a bachelor’s degree.

In Indonesia, I use to pay 30 Euro per semester (during my BSc), and that’s already too expensive for us!!!
When I went to college in the 1960s, the government schools were very affordable and there was a tremendous wave of propaganda encouraging virtually all kids to go to college. This huge influx of students with mediocre grades and worse-than-mediocre attitudes resulted in a huge building boom, as new universities sprang up overnight like McDonalds franchises. But it also resulted in a lowering of standards. Today they offer “remedial English” to incoming freshman who can’t quite keep up with their reading and writing assignments—and I’m not talking about foreign students! Many of today’s university graduates read at the level that was expected of high school graduates fifty years ago, and their math skills are atrocious. (These are the people who grew up and became bankers; they invented the idiotic “sub-prime mortgage” which has virtually destroyed the American economy.)

Don't be jealous, but at the age of 32, by studying 4 years in Germany, I have been able to buy a house and a small land for my parent in Indonesia (coz it's cheap to buy house and land there), and I still have 5 digits saving here in German bank, although I admit that I don't spend my money to buy unnecessary things and I rarely travel. I also still paying for my brothers education who are studying in home country.
Good for you. But I hope soon you will be able to start taking vacations and buying a few nice things for yourself. You deserve it!

No, that is not a typographical error. Tuition, books, lab fees, etc., can easily cost that much at one of our better (or more prestigious, anyway) private universities, and as much as $60K at a few of the most elite schools.
It sounds like you guys are being ripped off. What do you get for 40,000 USD that we don't? And who is able to afford that anyway?

In the USA the federal government does not have schools.

Err, not quite. There are several Military Academies, and dozens of primary and secondary schools maintained on military bases. But, yeah, it's apparently unclear whether it's even constitutional for the Federal government to establish a regular public university.



The California State Universities, with twice as many students on 23 campuses, attract students with more modest budgets, and perhaps more modest academic records. Many of them have specialized programs geared to their communities, for example, Humboldt State University near our home in the redwood forest grants degrees in forestry. All universities grant Bachelor, Master and Doctor degrees.

The California State Universities do not generally grant Doctoral degrees. That's UC's gig. There are a few exceptions, but such degrees are always offered as a joint-program with some other university that does have a research program.



There is also a California Community College system with more than 100 campuses and three million students. These colleges only have two-year programs that culminate in Associate degrees. This qualifies the graduates for many vocational careers, but can also transform a student with a poor high school record into a scholar with better grades who can transfer to a university in the middle of his education and complete a bachelor’s degree.

A considerable percentage of UC students are transfers from the CC system. This has become increasingly popular lately, due to spiralling costs: it is becoming normal for even bright, highly-qualified students to do two years at the local CC (living at home) and then transfer to UC to spend two years doing their major requirements. This is done simply to keep the cost down, and not because the student couldn't get into UC directly. At UCSD, for example, fully 40% of entering students are transfers.

It sounds like you guys are being ripped off. What do you get for 40,000 USD that we don't? And who is able to afford that anyway?

Bear in mind that University education isn't inherently any cheaper anywhere else (well, anywhere else in the first world). It's just more heavily subsidized by the state. Go find a list of education outlays as a percentage of GDP, and you'll find that the USA is ranked around the same as various other first-world countries.

As to what you get for the price of an American college education: an education in the world's foremost system of higher education, with concommitant access to the most desirable parts of the world's largest economy.

One thing that you get for the $40,000 you have to pay (as opposed to a more subsidized system) is that the majority of people who don't go to college don't have to spend their entire lives paying taxes to educate the minority that do. Instead, the people who get the college educations mostly pay for it themselves, and so don't burden the uneducated with the costs of their educations so much.

How much do teachers and professor earn in the USA?? In Germany, I know that my professor earns about 6000 Euro a month (before tax), and I think they are probably paid by tax money (since the students pay almost nothing), but they still have a quite decent life. That you pay so high for education, it must be because there are markets (people who are willing to pay that much). What I don't understand is, the people who take loan, like the one in the OP. He couldn't pay it back because he doesn't get a good job, yes? It means paying so much (having a "high value" as you say) does not guarantee you to get a good job, so what's the point of paying much? I think it is better that you have a bad job or ordinary job, but live without debts. At least, that's what I am thinking.....

p.s.: I am not gonna check your reply in the next couple of hours coz I'd like to take a walk a bit. C ya
any where from 50,000 to 300,000 American dollars maybe more. The thing is you will be a working stiff working 48 hr to 80 hr. a week to try and make ends meet with out that piece of paper . The more prestigious the school the more money you can make in the real world . There is a miss conception of all Americans being wealthy by other country standards . The cost to live is extremely high when you consider the cost you incur by being American. Yeah we have space because of the country size to population and our housing gives perception of wealth also , but when you start taking out the cost of living there is not much left in the average persons bank account. Most Americans live pay check to pay check or fall victim to welfare if they can't make it. At that point they are at poverty levels . I call Americans the working poor for the most part . I know the standard is a lot higher than many country's but our social slavery runs just as deep as any country . The way out for the most part ( unless you invent something every one has to have or catapulted to star status ) is that piece of paper from a prestigious university. That piece of paper cost you dearly , so it is a gamble , but one many people will take a chance on if they are excepted by a prestigious university . To elevate your families life is just as difficult for the American as is most places . The powers that be get you on the back end . So you get your piece of paper in hopes of having a future beyond social slavery and the powers that make it happen expect there cut of the pie for making it financially happen. Now many are screwed for it has been a long held belief that if you work hard you will succeed and reap the benefits of working a shit job while going to school to improve your worth only to fined out the opportunity no longer exists in the markets of the new reality no one has quite faced up to yet. It was a royal fuck job by government propaganda driving the education businesses of churn em and burn em . I understand how the person feels that started the post . He his screwed big time and will spend a good part of there life paying the debt . They were sold false hopes . Now you can see the bunches of Americans coming down on them that still believe the dream has validity . They will think different as there jobs too become obsolete and are forced to the welfare lines . As I was told as my construction business started to crumble from the housing crash that I could go mow lawn now and support my family. So Ah Yeah that sounds great a builder of extreme talents can now be a lawn mower Man . Oh wonderful joy joy I am going to jump all over that one . As you people with your supposed secure jobs lose them remember you to can be a new lawn mower person when it happens . Maybe a paper boy instead . I am going to continue with my music and bust the worlds gonads my self . It may not pay much , but at least I will get joy from busting the worlds ass with my plastic finger of the white man that Jimi Hendrix warned you about

It sounds like you guys are being ripped off. What do you get for 40,000 USD that we don't? And who is able to afford that anyway?

the 5% of elitist. There are others that are subsidized if they bright enough . My gifted first child made it through graduate school on grants instead of loans , Saved her money to buy a car and changed her mind and used it for school instead . then she worked for the university under professors doing research for a pittance . She has no student loans , but she is extremely gifted and is why she was able to do it. She belong in the University system by her own merits that the system could not deny. It was not payed for cause she was women , but because of her shear brilliance as a human being that made it happen . She has extreme writing skills that provided opportunity to get grants . She was a better writer than her competitors . Lots of hard work went into her success . She gave up lots of childish things when she was very young still and kept her focus . Like when she was 8 or 9 on she worker her butt off . Now she suffers from burn out to some degree . She might get the fire in her again one day , but I think the politics will have to change first for she can see very well that it is all just a political game of king of the hill and very little goes to actual human progress

No, that is not a typographical error. Tuition, books, lab fees, etc., can easily cost that much at one of our better (or more prestigious, anyway) private universities, and as much as $60K at a few of the most elite schools.

Public universities are considerably more affordable, and there's where you could knock off one of those zeroes. If you're a resident of the state, anyway. Tuition for students from another state is considerably higher, but still not as high as at the top private schools.

Many of the top-tier public universities are as good as the elite schools. A degree from the University of California at Los Angeles or the College of William and Mary (a public university in Virginia) is on a par with Yale, Stanford and Notre Dame.

America's two top private universities for science and engineering, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology ("MIT") and the California Institute of Technology ("Caltech") are (arguably) in a class by themselves, yet graduates in those fields from other institutions, even modestly-priced state-run schools, have become famous scientists.

In the USA the federal government does not have schools. All government schools are run by the individual states, counties and cities. Most states have a two- or three-tier system. In California, the University of California is the top tier, with almost 200,000 students on ten campuses; some of them have medical, dental, veterinary and/or law schools.

The California State Universities, with twice as many students on 23 campuses, attract students with more modest budgets, and perhaps more modest academic records. Many of them have specialized programs geared to their communities, for example, Humboldt State University near our home in the redwood forest grants degrees in forestry. All universities grant Bachelor, Master and Doctor degrees. The State Universities have very modest fees (by today’s standards), making them attractive to students who can’t qualify for scholarships, as well as those whose records aren’t quite good enough to be accepted by the top tier.

There is also a California Community College system with more than 100 campuses and three million students. These colleges only have two-year programs that culminate in Associate degrees. This qualifies the graduates for many vocational careers, but can also transform a student with a poor high school record into a scholar with better grades who can transfer to a university in the middle of his education and complete a bachelor’s degree.


Thanks for the great explanation, Fraggle (and also Me-Ki-Gal and Quad)! I have heard about most of the universities that you mentioned and I can see why they become the best in the world. I mean, if you guys must pay that much, you all must be working very hard throughout the university. I have to ask myself though, if you produce that much graduates in California alone (as you mentioned currently there is about 200,000 + 400,000 + some 3 million students there), just how much attractive jobs available for them when they graduate? Also, since there are at least about 200,000 students paying (or getting loan to pay) about 60k USD/year, there should be at least that much good jobs available for them alone...? And what are the chances for the rest 3.4 million students to get the good jobs? Sounds like a lot of jobs to provide. Anyway, the USA is a very big economy, there must be a good job somewhere for everyone.


Good for you. But I hope soon you will be able to start taking vacations and buying a few nice things for yourself. You deserve it!

Ha, thanks! :D Actually, I feel quite ok, I consider living in Germany itself as a continuous vacation. I can travel for free in the whole province here, and I haven't even finished discovering this province. A lot of castles, amazing museums, beautiful parks, river sides, lakes, a lot of festivals (my province is famous for its festivals), etc. Most of the things here are for free and new to me, even the snow and autumn leaves, we don't have that at home. Also, it is very nice to travel by train or even bikes here, from where I live I can ride my bicycle until the border of the Netherlands, takes me just one day to go and back. So, I really have a lot of things to keep me occupied!





One thing that you get for the $40,000 you have to pay (as opposed to a more subsidized system) is that the majority of people who don't go to college don't have to spend their entire lives paying taxes to educate the minority that do. Instead, the people who get the college educations mostly pay for it themselves, and so don't burden the uneducated with the costs of their educations so much.

Well, if you look at it that way, the majority don't get to pay, but they also don't get the access to the great universities?


any where from 50,000 to 300,000 American dollars maybe more. The thing is you will be a working stiff working 48 hr to 80 hr. a week to try and make ends meet with out that piece of paper .

Ok, that's a lot (for a professor salary)! Anyway, if you convert the salary of the professors here in Germany, they earn also about 100,000 USD/year, but the students don't have to pay high for them. I mean, the poor and rich students here can benefit from the same professor. Also, since you must pay about 50,000 USD/year for a good education, doesn't that mean you have to work "for free" for about as much time you spent in the university? I mean BSc until PhD takes about 10 years, so you must spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for education. When do you get this money back...?? And what happens to the people who can't pay back their students loan??



My gifted first child made it through graduate school on grants instead of loans , Saved her money to buy a car and changed her mind and used it for school instead . then she worked for the university under professors doing research for a pittance . She has no student loans , but she is extremely gifted and is why she was able to do it. She belong in the University system by her own merits that the system could not deny. It was not payed for cause she was women , but because of her shear brilliance as a human being that made it happen . She has extreme writing skills that provided opportunity to get grants . She was a better writer than her competitors . Lots of hard work went into her success . She gave up lots of childish things when she was very young still and kept her focus . Like when she was 8 or 9 on she worker her butt off . Now she suffers from burn out to some degree . She might get the fire in her again one day , but I think the politics will have to change first for she can see very well that it is all just a political game of king of the hill and very little goes to actual human progress

I wanted to say that I am happy for you to have such a fantastic daughter, you must be very proud of her, but did you just say she suffers from burn out? What happens? I am really sorry to hear that! I hope she is (will be) alright.

I've read on these forums that Islamic money lenders can still charge interest on the profits once a venture proves successful. Is that true? If so it would be more generous than charging interest whether the venture succeeds or fails, but that wouldn't be the same as loaning purely in the interest of helping.
lol, not exactly charge interest on successful ventures.
see, they do business with your money, whether you want them to or not, as long as your money is in their bank. however, you may want to share in their ventures of your money, that way you get your share when they make profitable business.
but it also means if they lose money, you will too:D.

but overall it's more or less guaranteed, you rarely lose as far as i know, but your share of the profits is very small, like 2% and less, it's like 50$ monthly if you're lucky and daring, usually it's less (for small timers like myself), but you can raise the stakes or even do your own ventures or become the bank's partner if you have enough money.

that's my modest understanding of it anyway.

I can not believe that the cost of instate tuition is 40,000/year. I went to the University of Michigan (which generally ranks around #15) and it cost $2-3000 per year in the mid 90s. Most of which was paid for by scholarships if one bothered applying (one year I won 6) and the rest paid for by borrowing (the leftovers of which could then be invested safely to pay back said loans). IOWs, university is free if one is somewhat smart and doesn't waste money (and works a couple jobs while attending). I know nothing of finance and even I could manage that much!

At 40K per year that is a huge rip off. BUT, I would never let money get between me and my life .... if possible. If it was 40K/yr then I'd do whatever I could to get that money. You only live one time, don't waste it worrying unduly about money. Especially when it's a loan.

I'd probably attend a cheaper University and then transfer halfway through. Try to get jobs inside the university tutoring. Apply for scholarship.

One could imagine borrowing on CC, buying physical silver, declaring bankruptcy, selling silver 7 years later, paying back student loans. Whatever it took, crush anything that gets between you and your dream (aside from physically harming someone!).

Well, if you look at it that way, the majority don't get to pay, but they also don't get the access to the great universities?

There is no system in which the majority of people get access to the great universities. The difference is whether said majority pays taxes to cover the educational expenses of the minority that gets access, or whether said minority pays their own way.

In state tuition in Pennsylvania was $6500 per semester. Board and food made it to 11K.

So about $400 per credit. Now if you live at home and go to community college (the cheapest education) it costs about $100 per credit, including books bought online. So you can have a year in community college for under 4K. Smart and not rich kids take the first 2 years at the local community college, then transfer the credits to the state college and they get a degree at a better college...The degree doesn't show where you started...

College is business, education is an investment....

P.S.: Books are expensive, can be 2-300 bucks, but you can buy basicly the same, but international version online for 50-80 bucks.

Thanks for the great explanation, Fraggle (and also Me-Ki-Gal and Quad)! I have heard about most of the universities that you mentioned and I can see why they become the best in the world. I mean, if you guys must pay that much, you all must be working very hard throughout the university. I have to ask myself though, if you produce that much graduates in California alone (as you mentioned currently there is about 200,000 + 400,000 + some 3 million students there), just how much attractive jobs available for them when they graduate? Also, since there are at least about 200,000 students paying (or getting loan to pay) about 60k USD/year, there should be at least that much good jobs available for them alone...? And what are the chances for the rest 3.4 million students to get the good jobs? Sounds like a lot of jobs to provide. Anyway, the USA is a very big economy, there must be a good job somewhere for everyone.



Ha, thanks! :D Actually, I feel quite ok, I consider living in Germany itself as a continuous vacation. I can travel for free in the whole province here, and I haven't even finished discovering this province. A lot of castles, amazing museums, beautiful parks, river sides, lakes, a lot of festivals (my province is famous for its festivals), etc. Most of the things here are for free and new to me, even the snow and autumn leaves, we don't have that at home. Also, it is very nice to travel by train or even bikes here, from where I live I can ride my bicycle until the border of the Netherlands, takes me just one day to go and back. So, I really have a lot of things to keep me occupied!




Well, if you look at it that way, the majority don't get to pay, but they also don't get the access to the great universities?






I wanted to say that I am happy for you to have such a fantastic daughter, you must be very proud of her, but did you just say she suffers from burn out? What happens? I am really sorry to hear that! I hope she is (will be) alright.

I am Hoping my youngest son is going to get to go to Stanford , On scholarship . He is gifted big time . The State has high hopes for him . I don't put presser on him. I learned from building work with out presser barring on you is more efficient and productive . You don't missteps that cost you time latter . Brun out is from lots of things in peoples lives . It comes from the feeling you can't do any thing about it , or from just to much of the same thing pushing rocks up hills and when they roll down push em back up the hill . After awhile a person might wonder why they continue pushing the rock

I can not believe that the cost of in-state tuition is 40,000/year.The concept of "in state" versus "out of state" students only applies to state-run universities, which are supported by the taxpayers within the state. As others have mentioned the cost of an education at a state university is considerably lower than $40K, whether you live in that state and pay the low rates, or live in another state and pay the higher rates. The $40K figure is for private universities like Stanford, Caltech, Loyola, Occidental, Whittier, USC (University of Southern California), etc. And that's a top-end figure; not all private colleges charge so much.
IOWs, university is free if one is somewhat smart and doesn't waste money (and works a couple jobs while attending).Even the expensive private schools aren't much different. The son of a friend of mine just applied to Harvard. They charge the $40K fee (in fact I think for Harvard it might even be more) to students whose parents can afford it. If they can't afford it, then they automatically give a full scholarship. They have plenty of endowments to pay for students whose families are not wealthy. They don't want their graduates coming out with a quarter-million dollar student loan to pay off. Of course if the student's parents have enough money to pay, but choose not to, he's screwed.
I am Hoping my youngest son is going to get to go to Stanford. . . . The State has high hopes for him.I'm not sure I understand what you're saying (which is not unusual since your writing is extremely difficult to read), but Stanford is a private university, not a state school.

I am looking to leave America and move to Asia, following in the footsteps of wise economists such as Jim Rogers and others. I along with many other College educated citizens in the US take out loans in order to fund their College education. I was told (although I was not shown proof and I am currently unaware as to where that proof lies) that if you give up you American citizenship then all you government debts are expunged. Does anyone know if this is the case?

If this is true I will not become 'a man home to no land', rather I will attempt to attain citizenship in Canada prior to my departure to Asia. Both my wife and my daughter are Canadian citizens.

Any advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Good riddance, you sound like a free loader to me.

Not good riddance, he's got our money.

I suggest we beat him up and hold him upside-down.

I am looking to leave America and move to Asia, following in the footsteps of wise economists such as Jim Rogers and others. I along with many other College educated citizens in the US take out loans in order to fund their College education. I was told (although I was not shown proof and I am currently unaware as to where that proof lies) that if you give up you American citizenship then all you government debts are expunged. Does anyone know if this is the case?

If this is true I will not become 'a man home to no land', rather I will attempt to attain citizenship in Canada prior to my departure to Asia. Both my wife and my daughter are Canadian citizens.

Any advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated.


Why take up loans if you do not intend to repay them? Thats stealing, plain and simple and it will eventually catch up with you.


A father was dragged from his home and handcuffed in front of his children by a SWAT team looking for his estranged wife – to collect her unpaid student loans.

A stunned Kenneth Wright had his front door kicked in by the raiding party at 6 am yesterday before being dragged onto his front porch, handcuffed and led to a police car with his three children. He says he was then detained for six hours while officers looked for his wife – who no longer lives at the house.

Mr Wright was later told by Stockton police that the order to send in the SWAT team came from The U.S. Department of Education who were looking for his estranged wife to collect defaulted loan payments. Speaking to ABC News 10, a visibly shaken Mr Wright described what happened when he was woken by a banging on his front door...

“The Office of Inspector General is the law enforcement arm of the U.S. Department of Education and is responsible for the detection of waste, fraud, abuse, and other criminal activity involving Federal education funds, programs, and operations. As such, OIG operates with full statutory law enforcement authority, which includes conducting search warrants, making arrests, and carrying firearms. The acquisition of these firearms is necessary to replace older and mechanically malfunctioning firearms, and in compliance with Federal procurement requirements. For more information on OIG’s law enforcement authority, please visit their Web site at ww2.ed.gov



http://theconservativetreehouse.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/alarming-swat-team-raids-home-ordered-by-dept-of-ed-unpaid-student-loans/

I recommend you find a payment plan that works for you...