Let's talk about sex, baby.

SkyeBlue

12-03-99, 09:00 PM

Okay, now that I'm home, I can freely talk about MY favorite subject...SEX!! Wooo-hooo!! LOL! :)

Alrighty then, as most of you already know, I don't follow the Christian dogma, I don't believe in heaven or hell, or sin for that matter. Having said that...

I think sex is similar religion in that as long as what you are doing doesn't harm another person, you should do what you feel is right.

I have no problems with premarital sex, open marriages, homosexuals, homosexual marriages, 3-way's, 4-ways, orgies, swingers... I don't particpate in all of these, (who has that much time?!), but I don't percieve any of these things to be "wrong" in and of themselves. Assuming, of course, that all parties there are consenting to this relationship.

I'm not trying to say these so-called 'alternate' lifestyles are for everybody, but for those who can handle them, GO FOR IT! Of course, if you are going to have multiple sex partners, disease risk is out there, and so is the risk of pregancy. But assuming you aren't cheating on a spouse, having sex in front of your kids, getting pregnant and then having abortions because you're too stupid or lazy to use protection, or spreading cooties about, (In other words, behaving irresponsibly) you should have every right to participate in any kind of sexual relationship you want to.

(I'm referring to adults here, by the way. Don't want this to be confused with my other posts elsewhere regarding kids & sex education.)

Society is pretty puritanical, overall, so most people in these types of relationships are quiet about it. Those that do 'come out of the closet' are subject to all kinds of slurs - "fag", "queer", "slut", "whore", "freak", "sex addict"... Somehow your personal sex life becomes this huge thing that overwhelms the rest of your personality to a lot of people.

Just today, for example, at work we had a little mini-Christmas party. The big gossip was that the new girl is a lesbian. "Oh my god, you mean she's a dyke?!" Oh, the shock and horror of it! I listened to their descriptive words, I had this forum in mind. What did I hear? Not - "she's a great worker, who cares?" Not - "yah, she's had the same girlfriend for six years" Not - "that's none of our business anyway". I heard instead - "oh, that's disgusting.", "I have to turn my radio way up when her girlfriend calls, I can't stand to listen to her", "no way is she a fag, she's pretty!" and my all-time favorite "I'm going to ask to move desks then. I can't sit next to a lesbian!"

I work right next to this lady. She doesn't sit there all day and talk about lesbian sex. I didn't even realize she was gay until someone told me, so obviously she's not hitting on all the girls in the office or otherwise making a fool of herself. I was disgusted by these people, and I finally told them off. Didn't make me too popular, but I just couldn't listen to their bigoted statements anymore.

I think my point is that peoples sex life is just that - their SEX life. Has nothing to do with the rest of who they are, and is really not anybody's business but their own. I get ill thinking about the kind of treatment homosexuals get, in real life, in the media, in their families. And that's just one small tip of the iceberg!

So my opinion, in a nutshell, is that everyone needs to keep their nose out of everyone else's pants, and mind their own business. If you're monogamous, good for you! If you're polygamous/polyamorous, good for you too! Bisexual, homosexual, transsexual, transvestite, heterosexual... All the same to me, a good person is a good person whether they sleep with men, women, or both.

Okay Lori, your turn! :)

Flash

12-04-99, 07:02 AM

I did not intend on really replying to this...but I must say.. SkyeBlue... I give your reply a two thumbs up!!

ilgwamh

12-04-99, 01:01 PM

^^^Religion to me is about rules, rules laid down by a God, or somebody claiming to speak on behalf of one.^^^

Obviously you can't be talking about Christianity because it is more of a relationship than a religion. Its about having vertical and horizontal relationships. Vertical represents your relationship with God while the horizontal would be your relationship with other people. The Bible is a guide to life. Lots of times people disagree on whether somethings wrong or right. God has told us his opinion on such matters in his book. I think he is a little smarter than us too.

^^^^Now even if you live your life without harming anyone else, (therefor good)^^^^

Sorry, unless your Jesus part 2 this isn't happening. The Bible says all have sinned and all fall short of the Glory of God. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. You can live a somewhat "righteous" life in the worlds eyes but without accepting Jesus as your savior you are guilty before God's eyes.

^^^^if you choose to ignore these rules aren't you doomed to hell by the very jurisdiction of your beliefs?^^^^

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the father is through the son. By accepting Jesus we are saved. By not accepting him we are doomed to a world where ther will be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Accepting Jesus means admitting you are a sinner. He also says if you love him you will obey him. Also, one way to know if your faith is true or not is by looking at the fruit it produces.

My beliefs on sex are as follows (biblical view): Sex before marriage is a sin. Homosexuality may have natural causes but none the less it is a sin. Its absolutely forbidden. Church's shouldn't marry homosexuals either. Porno is bad. Bible says you shouldn't even look at another woman with lust in your eyes. I don't want to get into abortion now. If you want to kill babies thats your problem. Something about a millstone comes to mind...

^^^So my opinion, in a nutshell, is that everyone needs to keep their nose out of everyone else's pants, and mind their own business.^^^^

What if this person really believes in their religion? What if they really think judgement awaits and hell is a real place? Wouldn't they be doing a good thing by trying to stop you from sinning and get you to accept Jesus, thus keep you out of hell? I'm not saying those people at work were right. They sound as if they think their crap doesn't stink. I'm still in high school and its amazing what other fellow students say. "If a gay person even talks to me I'll bust him in the eye." What amazes me more is that we even have so called adults acting like this not wanting to sit next to someone because they are different from them.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Searcher

12-04-99, 01:53 PM

Vinnie,

Yeah, and I think the church should keep it's vertical nose out of the horizontal relationships of consenting adults - know what I mean???

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Zappers

12-04-99, 07:28 PM

SkyeBlue

I don�t think I could have put it any better than you have and agree with you 100 %. You said it so well I see no reason for to say the same thing you have and not nearly as well.
One thing I�ve noticed is that the people who holler the loudest about sex are the ones who have the hardest time controlling their own sexual drive and desires. This was not a scientific study mind you and I admit I�m generalizing, but I do believe this.
Us guys are the guiltiest of getting crazy about these kinds of lifestyles. You ladies may gossip about it, but us guys get violent.. I think is is because men are scared to death someone
will think or say we are gay.
I know someone is going to come on talking about what the Bible says about these lifestyles, but I believe what the Bible
Scholars say about it, and nearly all the Scholars I read or have herd seem to think that the Bible was taking not so much about homosexuality being the evil as it was about how the people treated the
strangers in Sodom and Gomorra.
Since I have never felt that Bible Scholars had any particular reason, other than ego, to snow people, I�ll believe them before I�ll believe some bastard who is trying to get attention and more people in the churches by putting fear or hate of something in peoples minds and making fortunes doing it.
It�s strange that all at once Jerry Farwell changing his dialog on this issue. Could it be that election time is coming up and he�s
backing off thinking he might gain more support for the candidates he�s
supporting ? Or perhaps after the shooting in the Baptist Church about a month ago has made him realize he would do best to calm his hate message down a little since some of his own are getting a little bit
of the shit they put out ? No way in hell do I trust a money hungry ass hole like him.
Well I won�t ramble any more, I just had to put my two cents in the pot.

P. S.
I did this post on word and see some has already posted a response that refers to the Bibles reference to the subject. I�ll simply say I don�t buy it.

ShyeBlue
I never have read the data on the WICCA. I'm very involved in the Y2K panic at work and haven't had time.

[This message has been edited by Zappers (edited December 04, 1999).]

truestory

12-04-99, 08:42 PM

Lori,

About sex, you asked:

What's it for? Are there rules? What are yours? Are they related to your spiritual beliefs? If so, then how? When should you do it? When shouldn't you? Who should? Who shouldn't? And why? What about marriage? What's THAT for? What about porno? What about birth control? What about abortion? How do our choices affect our lives and our society?

I've been pondering your questions, and I'd like to put it this way:

I can imagine nothing more beautiful, pure and meaningful in life than the sexual life of two individuals, married in the eyes of God, engaging totally... emotionally, physically and spritually... in the human sexual act which was meant to proliferate the species which was created in God's image... with no inhibitions of mind, body or soul... their bodies becoming one... for a lifetime... totally at ease... comfortable and peaceful within themselves, with each other and with God... lovingly, patiently and selflessly giving of and to each other and God... reaching the most powerful, simultaneous, multiple orgasms, never before imagined... over and over again throughout their lifetime... in the eyes of their loving God.

The lives of the children which might be created from this type of love need not be prevented, for they are true gifts from God. This type of love creates no need for porno, birth-control or abortion and the love which abounds in society from the proliferation of such families is great, powerful and positive. Being blessed by God, this type of love cannot be matched.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 04, 1999).]

666

12-04-99, 10:59 PM

Ilgwamh,

Sorry, unless your Jesus part 2 this isn't happening. The Bible says all have sinned and all fall short of the Glory of God. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. You can live a somewhat "righteous" life in the worlds eyes but without accepting Jesus as your savior you are guilty before God's eyes.

This original sin stuff makes me sick! It's a sorry attempt to make others feel guilty about being themselves and control.

As long as the people involved are adults and agree upon the act they are not hurting anyone. they know the risks and by chosing to do it they accept the any repurcusions wether good or bad. As for porno whats wrong with it?

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

truestory

12-05-99, 12:58 AM

666,

I can quote some statistics about the effect of the increase in pornography on the increase in crimes against women, children and animals if you'd like.

As for what is wrong with pornography, if anything? You be the judge:

Although many indulge, by its very definition, pornography is "intended" to excite "lewd" and "lecherous" feelings.

Lewd feelings are defined as licentious, lustful, obscene, originally wicked and vulgar.

Lecherous is defined as inciting lechery... Lechery being excessive indulgence in sexual activity, prurience (obsessive interest in improper matters, especially of a sexual nature) or lasciviousness (characterized by lustfulness - overwhelming sexual desire or craving, especially that which is excessive or unrestrained. To have an inordinate or obsessive sexual desire).

As far as I can determine, pornography is one way for "Lucifer" to have his way on earth. :(

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 04, 1999).]

ilgwamh

12-05-99, 02:16 AM

""""As long as the people involved are adults and agree upon the act they are not hurting anyone. they know the risks and by chosing to do it they accept the any repurcusions wether good or bad. As for porno whats wrong with it?""""

Who made you God that you can go around stateing what is right and what isn't? Why is hurting people bad as your post implies? Please explain where you get your moral values from and how you know they are right. On what do you base your epistimology? It's
ok to perform any act as long as everyone agrees on it and it doesn't hurt anyone according to you. This is infinitely true because with your infinite knowledge you posit it to be infinitely so.

"""This original sin stuff makes me sick! It's a sorry attempt to make others feel guilty about being themselves and control."""

You think your a good person it seems. Sorry. The only thing any of us deserve is eternal death in hell.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

666

12-05-99, 04:22 AM

Ilgwamh,

Who made you God that you can go around stateing what is right and what isn't?

Try looking in the mirror and asking your self the same question. I don't need to be a god to say what I belive. An opinion was asked and I gave mine. Is an opinion wrong or right or is an opinion just an opinion? If some guy desides to engage with another male who feels the same way he has harmed no one.

I belive hurting another person with out provocation is bad, becuase you are striping someone of thier basic human dignity.

Please explain where you get your moral values from and how you know they are right. On what do you base your epistimology? It's
ok to perform any act as long as everyone agrees on it and it doesn't hurt anyone according to you.

Thats a good question. I belive every one has a basic set of morals, more correctly can determine right from worng due to empathy. The rest is most likely taught to us and learned through experience.

This is infinitely true because with your infinite knowledge you posit it to be infinitely so.
I never claimed to have "infinite knowledge" . Ware did you get that from? Thanks for the compliment though. :)

If we all deserve to die and go to hell, Why don't you lead by example?

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

666

12-05-99, 04:35 AM

Truestory,

I know of the statistics, but there is a basic problome with statistics. Depending on ware you put numbers, how you phrase the questions, or what key pices of information you chose to leave out they will tell you exactly what you want to hear. For example, hear in California when ever they what to pass a new law regarding car exhaust polution the law makers will proclaim that cars produces something like 80% of the polution in the air. What they don't tell is that car exhaust makes up 80% of the 5% contributed to all motor vehicles making the problome seem worse than it realy is. There will allways be people who abuse things. People can abuse just about anything. I have known people who over do the pron. I belive that when it is not abuse, just like anything elese in life, it can be a healthy form of release. Did these statistics tell how many of thses people would have been prone to comit a sexual asault if they hadn't been into viewing porn?
------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 05, 1999).]

Tiassa

12-05-99, 05:27 AM

Truestory--

Unfortunately, there is also a frightening correllation between milk sales and rapes. Researchers attempted to figure out if there was a biochemical reason and apparently gave up on the grounds that it was too subjective. If I recall, a similar statistical correlation exists between alcohol and rape. I could write a survey that would easily demonstrate the link between religious families and father-daughter incest. I think the damage of pornography is twofold: there is an excitement and guilt that comes with being young and getting your first dirty mags--it is a similar guilt to any number of sex-related guilts developing psychologies endure; secondly, as we see with the internet, pornography can devour large blocks of a person's time quite easily.

Ilgwamh--

* "Obviously you can't be talking about Christianity ...." Okay, that's just a wonderful example of something I've never been able to put words to: the inability of people of faith to imagine how other people perceive them. Oh, and if one-billion people are arguing over how to obey a book I can find in a motel with hourly rates ... well, I guess yeah, the author is kinda smart.

I think, though you ask a vital question: "What if this person really believes ...?" I would ask in turn Why one believes. Is it more important to the whole of the Plan that people live properly, or use the "correct" names? Another aspect of that is a classic political trap in the United States. I began learning liberalism about beginning of the Dark Ages, er, the Reagan years. I remember the idea that people should tie themselves in knots if they must in order to understand what motivates one's "opponent". Thus I learned accomodationism proper to an extent. But I cannot recall when my conservative "opponents" were ever obliged to make the same efforts.

* "Who made you God that you can go around stating what is right and what isn't?" I think that, technically, if all things are of God, then God is of all things. If all things are God, then I guess anyone, therefore, is God, and can go around stating what's right and what isn't ... for their own special selves.

What I don't understand is how things went from Jesus criticizing the hypocrites to a Church whose history is rife with the tragic need to demonstrate their piety at the expense of human life. Even if we stop, say, at the Inquisitions, and examine it in an academic sense, how did Jesus' ministry develop into such monstrous things as "Malleus Maleficarum"? How did God's infinite mercy reduce two villages in the Bishopric of Trier, Germany, to a single childbearing female apiece? What the heck is it that is eating at the body Christian?

* "The only thing any of us deserve is eternal death in hell." You know, that sounds grim. You oughta try Wicca or atheism or suicide. Any of the three is a bit brighter of prospect.

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited December 05, 1999).]

ilgwamh

12-05-99, 12:15 PM

""""Try looking in the mirror and asking your self the same question.""""

I don't need to. I'm in sales, God is in management. He makes the rules, I just relay the message.

"""I don't need to be a god to say what I belive. An opinion was asked and I gave mine. Is an opinion wrong or right or is an opinion just an opinion?"""

So you don't put much stock in your own emotions? Whats right and wrong is really just an opinion? Your saying there is not an absolute truth?

"""" I belive hurting another person with out provocation is bad, becuase you are striping someone of thier basic human dignity.""""

Why, in your opinion, is 'striping someone of thier basic human dignity' bad?

"""If we all deserve to die and go to hell, Why don't you lead by example?"""

Sorry, I'm going the other way :) but I do agree with you on one thing. Statistics can be very misleading.

""""Okay, that's just a wonderful example of something I've never been able to put words to: the inability of people of faith to imagine how other people perceive them.""""

I know how non-christians feel. I've only been one for a year. I remember thinking of how gullible those churchies were and asking angrily where God was at and why he allows bad stuff to happen. Saying there isn't any evidence to believe in God. Some of my friends at school thought I was brainwashed when I became a Chritian. One kid who is an athiest said something along the lines of 'You were like the biggest athiest I knew and now all of a sudden you believe in God.' I know exactly where non-christians come from.

I stopped caring about what the world said. I realized how worthless morality is without an overlying truth. That there is no real right and wrong without an overlying truth. Its hard when you know in your head it is completely wrong for someone to kill a child or an adult but you logically can't explain why. Your emotions say its wrong but logic says otherwise. We are all just atoms. Whats the difference between shooting a wall and shooting a person? Your hitting atoms either way. I was in a real slump in this time of my life. I stopped caring, I didn't want to do what the world wanted me to do. I used to disagree with people even if deep down inside I really agreed with them just for the sake of disagreeing. I realized how superficial and stupid this "world" was and is. Science, which most christians seem to be afraid of, helped me come to my senses and open up my eyes. I still don't understand why I didn't commit suicide. I thought about it a lot. Life was grim. God, most likely, just wouldn't let me.

""""What I don't understand is how things went from Jesus criticizing the hypocrites to a Church whose history is rife with the tragic need to demonstrate their piety at the expense of human life. Even if we stop, say, at the Inquisitions, and examine it in an academic sense, how did Jesus' ministry develop into such monstrous things as "Malleus Maleficarum"? How did God's infinite mercy reduce two villages in the Bishopric of Trier, Germany, to a single childbearing female apiece?""""

I don't understand it either, actually I do in a sense, but I couldn't explain it because I don't understand it well enough. Like I said, the only thing any of us deserve is eternal death in hell. The truth may be grim but that doesn't stop it from being the truth.

"""You know, that sounds grim. You oughta try Wicca or atheism or suicide. Any of the three is a bit brighter of prospect."""

Suicide is self-murder which makes it a sin. I don't know much about wicca, can't comment on it. Athiesm is athiesm. You know the drill.

I don't want something because it seems nice, I want the truth.

""""I think that, technically, if all things are of God, then God is of all things. If all things are God, then I guess anyone, therefore, is God, and can go around stating what's right and what isn't ... for their own special selves.""""

Am I agreeing or disagreeing with that statement? You figure it out...

Romans 2:12-15
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

My apologies to Lori for side-tracking off the original topic. I tend to chase rabbits...

Have a great week everyone!!! :)

Vinnie
GBU
Praise Jesus.

[This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited December 05, 1999).]

SkyeBlue

12-05-99, 10:06 PM

Wow, this thread has been BUSY!

Vinnie -

Okay, way back there, you said:

"[my original post -->]^^^So my opinion, in a nutshell, is that everyone needs to keep their nose out of everyone else's pants, and mind their own business.^^^^

[your reply-->]What if this person really believes in their religion? What if they really think judgement awaits and hell is a real place? Wouldn't they be doing a good thing by trying to stop you from sinning and get you to accept Jesus, thus keep you out of hell? "

Yeah, SO WHAT if that person really believes in their religon. If I were a lesbian, I sure as heck wouldn't give a crap WHY you were a pushy bigot! Try reversing the situation - Would you appreciate for one second a gay man talking to YOU nonstop about why is't so great to be on the recevieng end of some fabulous man sex? Would you appreciate his invitations to come over to the local gay bar, just to give it a try?

And how about if YOU were the minority - what if being a Christian was a terribly embarrasing secret, and if those gay men found out about it, you'd be in danger for your life?? Persecution and bigotry are terrible, no matter WHAT the excuse you use is. Remeber the Crusades?? They were just trying to...how did you put it;"...stop you from sinning and get you to accept Jesus, thus keep you out of hell...". You might want to think twice before you start along that line of reasoning.

If you're a Christian, and you don't want to have sex before marriage than that's what you should stick to. If you think homosexuality is a 'sin', then don't do it, however tempting that may be. Just don't go telling everyone else that they're going to burn in hell for having sex before they're married,or are homosexual, transsexual, whatever. I don't believe in hell, I don't believe in sin, and I sure as heck am not the only person that feels that way. Isn't there something about not judging your fellow man? And anyway it's rude to go pushing your beliefs on people.

666

12-05-99, 11:32 PM

Ilgwamh,

So you don't put much stock in your own emotions? Whats right and wrong is really just an opinion? Your saying there is not an absolute truth?

No I do put a lot of stock into my emotions. You are just being way to literal. Nothing in life is 100%. I do not belive there is any absolute truth.

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

ilgwamh

12-05-99, 11:41 PM

""""And how about if YOU were the minority - what if being a Christian was a terribly embarrasing secret, and if those gay men found out about it, you'd be in danger for your life?? Persecution and bigotry are terrible, no matter WHAT the excuse you use is.""""

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes (1 Romans 16)

""""Just don't go telling everyone else that they're going to burn in hell for having sex before they're married,or are homosexual, transsexual, whatever.""""

I never have said that. But if you do not accept Jesus as your savior you will go to hell. According to the Bible anyways.

"""Isn't there something about not judging your fellow man?"""

Yes, the Bible says "Judge not lest ye be judged yourself. Most of the time this verse is used as a defense mechanism.

'Freely I confess my sins
For God has poured his grace in
But when another lists my faults
I want to smash his face in'

Thats the attitude a lot of us get. Even a cursory glance at the book of Proverbs would reveal that "A wise man accepts advice."

"""Try reversing the situation - Would you appreciate for one second a gay man talking to YOU nonstop about why is't so great to be on the recevieng end of some fabulous man sex? Would you appreciate his invitations to come over to the local gay bar, just to give it a try?"""

There seems to be a big difference between a few moments of sexual pleasure and an eternity of happiness or sadness. Do you not agree? If the shoe fits...get another one just like it.

"""And anyway it's rude to go pushing your beliefs on people."""

That is your opinion. Where is it etched in stone that what you just said is an absolute truth in our universe?

You seemed to have stated your belief that 'it's rude to go pushing your beliefs on people' as a fact. Its your belief and you pushed it upon me as a fact. Take your own advice.

Have a great week.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus

truestory

12-06-99, 01:10 AM

666,

In my reply to your question about what is wrong with pornography, I briefly mentioned that statistics are available... Rather than focusing on the statistics, I chose to focus on the more important nature of pornography in my reply. However, you chose to address my brief comment about statistics... What I am wondering now is, how do you feel about the nature of pornography and its intent?

FyreStar

12-06-99, 02:34 AM

Lori -

I used to believe solely in abstinance prior to marriage, until I thought about it and realized that marriage is just a silly religious ritual. Marriage certainly isn't going to affect how much I love would-be wife, so why bother? On the other hand, I think that two people should refrain from having sex until they are mature enough to know that they will continue to love each other for years to come. As for rules.. as long as the couple fall under the above guidlines, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't do what makes them happy.

Pornography is another matter. If it could be kept out of the hands of the immature, I wouldn't have any problem with it. However, since it is readily available to damn never anyone over age 8, I think it is a problem.

Birth control is fine in my opinion, and if everyone practiced that, there would be no need for abortion.

As for Pamela Anderson.. please keep in mind that well over 40% of the male population are morons(I don't think morons should be allowed to breed, but thats a different story).

ilgwamh -
Not to put to fine a point on it, but why don't you shut the hell up about how people 'know' what they know and answer the question that was asked?

FyreStar

Mike

12-06-99, 05:56 AM

Ilgwamh,

***The only thing any of us deserve is eternal death in hell***

Who's the fundamentalist now?

***Homosexuality may have natural
causes but none the less it is a sin.***

I remember the Nazi's had similiar opinions, and we all know what happened there.

***Why, in your opinion, is 'striping someone of thier basic human dignity' bad?***

So what about the remaining 5.3 billion people on the planet who are not Christians? Do they not deserve there own dignity? Should they burn in hell?

SkyeBlue

12-06-99, 05:02 PM

Okay Vinnie, my turn again! (Whoo, and I thought Lori would be the one chasing me around! :) )

First off, I didn't say you WERE ashamed to be Christian, I said WHAT IF? I wanted you to think for a minute what it might be like to be on the other side of your views, I didn't ask you to quote the bible at me.

Next... You say "I never have said that. But if you do not accept Jesus as your savior you will go to hell" - Umm, am I the only one that sees a contradiction there?? You just DID say that, Vinnie!

As far as advice vs. judging someone else - those are two different things. Telling someone something is different than advising them.

"There seems to be a big difference between a few moments of sexual pleasure and an eternity of happiness or sadness. Do you not agree?" - Sure I agree to that, but you got to remember I don't believe in your eternity! Neither do millions of other people on this globe. Why should everyone else have to either conform to your views or suffer harassment from you? Live and let live.

And, "You seemed to have stated your belief that 'it's rude to go pushing your beliefs on people' as a fact. Its your belief and you pushed it upon me as a fact. Take your own advice" Okay, sure, I can accept that. Allow me to revise my statement - "IN MY OPINION, it is EXTREMELY rude to go pushing your beliefs on people." Better?

The fact of the matter is that just because you believe in something that doesn't make it a truth. That book you believe with all your heart may be just kindling as far as others are concerned. Your beliefs are valid for YOU, and that's who you should concern yourself with.

Lori

12-06-99, 05:15 PM

Hi everyone,

Hey this is getting good. No time to talk this weekend...attack of the home improvement project. Oh boy though, do I have plenty to say!!!!! Gotta take the kitty to the vet tonight so it'll have to wait til tomorrow. :(

I will answer one of my own questions here though, and that is...

What's it for?

Why it's for making babies, silly!!!!! DUH!
Why is it that people always want to make it about something else? It's never about making babies anymore. Nowadays that takes $10K a pop in a test tube. Ludicrous. It's not about love. It's not about love!!!! Point is that you should ideally love everyone the same!!!!!!! Get it? But hey now, that doesn't mean you get to doink everyone, whoa!!!! Love is expressed many, many, many ways, and a kind word, loving emotional support, a helping hand, a shoulder to cry on is many times a much more TRUE expression of love than sex. For example, I have GIRLFRIENDS, ok? And I loooooooooove these girls. Been friends with them since I was a mall rat, and we're like sisters. And I love them as much or more than I do my husband, but you know, I never, ever wanted to lick their twats. Does that make any sense? Sex has NOTHING to do with love, and I dare anyone to argue that. I for one can attest to having a smorgasboard of loveless sex in my lifetime, so there's your scientific proof for you. Yes Boris (wherever you are) I actually DID conduct a scientific study on this topic!!!!! What does sex have to do with? Babies!!!!!! Goo-goo, gotta go. More later. Can't wait. You guys think this is bad? Just wait...I'm gonna piss you all off something fierce! :)

Hey, do you like my new sig? I crack myself up! Wubbies!

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

tablariddim

12-06-99, 07:28 PM

Dear Lori,
I'm afraid that your new cute sig', which is based on your strong belief that the antichrist will be an alien just smacks of racism. It seems the politically correct new christian needs a new 'nigger' to kick.
The Mormons believe that they are in fact alien visitors on earth and that black people are the devils own.Sound familiar?
I don't know whether et's will ever make contact with us but I dread to think what our reaction will be if say the president of the USA and the chiefs of staff happen to share your beliefs at the time.

SkyeBlue

12-06-99, 07:43 PM

Hey Lori - grab your garters, I agree with you! Woah, how did that happen? ;)

I agree, sex has nothing to do with love. You can love someone and not have sex, you can have sex and not love someone... It's up to the individual what kind of link they make between love & sex.

Okay, but I don't agree completely. (Of course not, big surprise there!) I have a different view on sex being solely for procreation, however. Lori, you don't out and out state that that's ALL sex is for so please forgive me if I'm reading that wrong, but that is your opinion, right? I feel that sex is partially for continuing the species, but I think it's also designed for pleasure.

The reason I think this is so - people can have sex thousands of times, and have the urges to do so, but only procreate a couple dozen times tops. Wouldn't it work out a lot better if sex felt pretty indifferent, but giving birth felt like an orgasm?? Or if sex only gave a woman an orgasm if she was in the fertile part of her cycle? But, no, it feels good, even if it's just you and yourself gettin' down to business. ;) It's been proven to release stress, and it releases all kinds of hormones that can help your body heal.

So, there's my bit for the afternoon. :)

Lori

12-06-99, 08:16 PM

Hi again,

I've gotta few more minutes so I actually read through the string, and I have a few comments...

TS,

Wow! That was great!!!!! You are very eloquent indeed, and I agree with your perception (and your basis) whole-heartedly! Girl, I almost slid off my chair when I read that! (I miss my hubby.) :)

Vinnie,

Hang in there buddy! I'm sorry that some out here see the need to be so defensive. You know guys, I didn't percieve him to be shoving anything down anyone's throats. He's just stating his opinion and debating. You just don't like his opinion is all. Let's all be nice, ok? I've heard it all before, but man it's disturbing to hear the hatred many have towards the Word of God and towards Jesus. What they do not realize is that it's not the Word or the Son that they have the problem with. They rationalize their disbelief with the sins of Christians, or those who profess to be. If you are even vaguely familiar with the Word, you will know that this does not make logical sense.

So who was it that thinks the Baptist church in Texas got what they deserved? That sent chills down my spine. What psychopath was it that said that? Are you willing to go down there and tell that to the parents who lost their teenage child in the shooting? Listen to me....Christians do not kill homosexuals. Christians do not persecute or judge homosexuals or anyone else for that matter. If you ever run into some people who call themselves Christians, yet they judge others and hold themselves above others, or they just bombed an abortion clinic, or they've got a big white hood on their fucking head, then get a clue....THEY'RE NOT CHRISTIANS!!!!!!

Ok, so that was a tangent. Sorry, but I just need to have oooooone more. About the porno. More chills, thanks very much. Know what? I don't need any stinking statistics to know what porno is for and the effect that it has. And you know, just because some people DON'T decide to get so messed up on the stuff that they go out and rape someone is such a great arguement for it being a GOOD thing to indulge in. *scared/confused look*
Pornography IS the sale of sex. No it's not, that's prostitution. I forgot to ask about that one, but we can just lump this crap all together. Porno is the sale of material for the purpose of sexual arrousal. So we're buying and selling sex. Besides our salvation, it's just gotta be one of the greatest, most valuable and precious gifts that God gave us, and we're selling it, and selling it cheap. Do you know why Pamela Andersen was the answer to the Hollywood Squares question? For the same reason that no one seems to think that there's anything wrong with porno. Let's see...fake hair, fake nails, fake boobs, fake tan. She may as well be a blow up doll. So that's what it's reduced down to huh? Well guys, how bout this? Go out and buy yourselves a damn blow up doll, and leave us REAL women alone. ok? You want to make JOKES about how the fact that collectively we've reduced women down to nothing but pieces of meat, as objects? You want to make jokes about how we've reduced the most beautiful thing in the world down to the same level as taking a shit? Hey now, that feels pretty damn good too, in the morning, after your first cig and a cup of coffee? And it's not JUST women either, so I don't want to hear about some poor sex object of a man out there. We are equally degraded. Why? Because we choose to reject God, that's why. We refuse to admit that degradation is actually what it is. "Oh no there's nothing wrong with it, those girls are getting rich, and having the time of their lives! They're movie stars; they're famous!" Money, money, money, money, money!!!! IS THAT ALL ANYTHING IS ABOUT ANYMORE?????? Well, if you think that the life of a stripper, or a prostitute, or a porno actress or model is glamorous, I hearby deem you too stupid to post in this forum anymore. *S* "Oh no, looking at porno is a normal and healthy 'release' and is perfectly natural." If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that out of a man, I'd be able to quit turning tricks and get off the street. Just kidding. Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but in my opinion, a fake hair, fake tanned, fake nailed, fake boob, liposuctioned girl totally nude, legs spread with one finger in her mouth and the other you know where in some kind of contorted position, making expressions of desire to no one in particular, under a bunch of white lights in some studio, with a camera shoved up her cooch and a bunch of people watching DOES NOT sound natural. As a matter of fact, I can't imagine a more unnatural thing. The things we rationalize. It's very disturbing. Sex isn't supposed to be published ok? It's supposed to be treasured and appreciated for the wonderful thing it is, not watered down, twisted and perverted, reduced to some monitary value and sold. Can I get an amen?

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Lori

12-06-99, 08:45 PM

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude, :(

Please, oh please, oh please, let's not use that word ok? At least not when you are speaking to me. I find it terribly offensive and unnecessary. I know that may sound hypocritical to some since I'm such a trash mouth myself, but the words I choose do not hold such a deep-rooted and tragic history, nor such a specific and hateful prejudice. I say fuck the "n" word! LOL!

May I point out that black people have never abducted thousands and thousands of people against their will, subjected them to horrible experimentation including the dreaded anal probe, totured them, raped them and then "harvested the babies"? Oh yea, that's what Americans did to THEM!!!!!!!!!!!! But seriously, I've never known a black person to claim to know all the truth in the universe, to hold the key to the meaning of life, or to compare the life of Jesus with that of Jim Jones. You find me some black folks that are doing this, and I'll get your point. Have you read anything at all about the messages that abductees are channeling? I suggest that you take a look. It's a bitter pill. Where do you think new age religion is coming from exactly? Listen, I happen to know first hand that aliens don't like Jesus. And I also happen to know that they are spiritual beings and not "aliens" as my sig suggests. I guess I've met some black people that weren't all that crazy about Jesus, but none that displayed the characteristics of spiritual beings. Had they, then I would suspect that they are demonic as well. *and I really wanted to make some snide sarcastic remark here, but decided I wouldn't cause I'm trying to be nice*

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

SkyeBlue

12-06-99, 10:14 PM

Lori -

"Christians do not judge homosexuals. Christians do not persecute or judge homosexuals or anyone else for that matter"??
I don't think I know any of these non-judgemental Christians you are describing. If I ever met someone claiming to be Christian that was NOT judgemental of anyone not following the "Word of God" I think I'd start looking for the Candid Camera guys. I know the IDEAL Christian wouldn't do anything of the kind, but the REAL Christians I have met sure do. Okay, that's a terrible generalization, but it's what I've seen and what else do I have to go by??

Not that I'm trying to say I'm above judging someone. I just try to judge them based on things that are relevant, not things that have nothing to do with me or my relationship with them.

There, I just deleted a whole paragraph because I was getting nasty. I'm a'tryin' to be nice, I really am, but this topic really gets my dander up.

During my senior year in high school, all of a sudden there was this huge surge of gay students coming out of the closet, which of course led to all the gay-bashers and bible-thumpers coming out of the woodwork. One thing led to another, and finally someone attacked a good friend of mine, from behind, no less! Among other injuries, his jaw was broken, but that was the least of it. Now it was dangerous to be different. I belonged to the "gothic" or "mod" group, which is where most of the gays tended to end up. I ended up playing bodyguard for a few of my gay male friends because they were AFRAID to go to class for fear of being assaulted. I would usher them into the girls bathrooms when they were empty because they were afraid of the boys bathrooms. My NON gay male friends suffered the same kind of treatment - friend of a fag is close enough, I guess. The school finally had to step in and place guards at the school for these students. A lot of them changed schools, went to continuation, or got their GED's. And what was the excuse for violence, almost 100% of the time? God.

So this is why I am so adamant - sex is a personal thing, and no matter what YOUR beliefs are, religious or otherwise, you should never try to force someone else into your mold. It will only cause misery all the way around.

Now, I don't think that's too extreme. I don't mind someone offering advice, or asking questions. I don't have a problem with being concerned for a friend. If your friend was gay, or in a polygamous marriage, and you're concerned about their future, by all means, go ahead and speak your mind. I am objecting to the crusaders out there that take it upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner all in one to people they don't know.

Okay, on to other stuff. Lori, just curious, we know how you feel about porn (have to say I don't have much tender feelings for it myself, though for slightly different reasons) - what about a nudie picture of your spouse? Are lustful feelings okay within a marriage? What about an EXTREMELY graphic nudie of your spouse, something like what you described? I'm just wondering how you feel about that side of porn - the non-commercial, private-between-you-and-me type of thing.

666

12-07-99, 12:32 AM

Truestory,

Sorry about not answering your main question. I just get kinda wound up when I see someone stating facts that have questionable foundations.

There will allways be people who abuse things. People can abuse just about anything. I have known people who over do the pron. I belive that when it is not abuse, just like anything elese in life, it can be a healthy form of release. Did these statistics tell how many of thses people would have been prone to comit a sexual asault if they hadn't been into viewing porn?

I may have been a little to vague, but it sumerizes how I feel about porn. I don't see it as being harmfull when adults chose to view pron. You will find that the same people who fixate (and I do mean fixate, not view once in a while)on pron are the same people who have other underlining problems. I don't see it as the work of satan. My view may be totaly off base for a lot of people, to them I say, don't view or purchase porn.

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

Searcher

12-07-99, 12:34 AM

Lori,

You asked where the New Age religion is coming from - I know this won't score me any points here, but I think most religions can be traced back to the Babylonian mystery religions, including, but certainly not limited to, New Age, Hinduism, Buddhism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Islam, Judaism and Christianity. (Sorry! And yes, the distinction I made between Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians was intentional.) I believe that worship of the Dragon or Serpent (or reptilian aliens, if you will) is the foundation of all of them (whether the followers are aware of it or not - and in most cases, they're not). I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, but the more I study religion, the more certain of this I become.

That aside, I think sex can be used (or misused) in many ways, but it certainly isn't limited to procreation. And if you have never experienced sex as an expression of love for another person, then I am very sorry for you - you've been cheated big time!

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

truestory

12-07-99, 04:36 AM

What caused a most famous sexual serial killer's irregular tick? Could it be pronography???

See:
http://ronmitchell.com/Bundy.html

Is pornography harmful to women???

See:
http://pages.wooster.edu/grayj/civil.html

Stretch

12-07-99, 08:20 AM

Hi, I`m new here.
Lori, I feel I need to say a couple of things here.
Firstly, as regards pornography. You seem to have a typical female hang-up in over emphasing the importance of porn.(I`m not being personal) It has its place, and like everything else in life, moderation seems to be what its all about. Any addiction robs one of precious time in the search for enlightenment. But ... what is so wrong with the naked human body? We are not born fully clothed. We are born naked and this equates to a mankind�s natural state. As we get older we, are naturally attracted to the opposite sex (or the same sex nowadays) and have a natural sexual attraction long before we are mature enough for procreation. If God did not intend for us to feel sexually attracted to the opposite sex, He would only have switched the hormones on when we were married at age 25 or whatever. I said natural. God given. Why must we always fight against our natural inclinations, which are God given.We seem to forget that all our natural motivations in life were given to us in God`s image.
As long as pornography is not produced in a manner which undermines an individuals rights or dignity, (against their will), I think its O.K. The models are posing out of their own free will. They are adults and it�s their choice. And if it�s done for financial gain, that is also their adult choice. Money causes a lot worse evils in the world, than in the porno industry. And as far as porn and rape and sexual violence statistics go, where I live we have one of the highest incidences of rape in the world and this violence happens in the social sector where porn can certainly not be afforded or accessed.

Secondly, sex IS all about love. In the act of procreation there just has to be the greatest love of all.But you cannot tell me seriously that sex must be reserved only for procreation. In my experience. (I don`t know about your experience) It is the most intimate and personal way to show your love for another person. I agree it is not the ONLY way to show love, but between consenting adults, it is a deeply binding experience of love. I also love some of my male and female friends dearly, (and they know it) but I really don`t know how you made the jump from this love to the sexual aspect that you mentioned. I love my friends for their strenghts, weaknesses and their very humanity!

Thirdly, what is a REAL woman?

Fourthly, off topic, but what is your view on Christian Gnosticm?

TS
I concur with your view.

G,day!

Lori

12-07-99, 10:44 PM

I like this topic. I give it a thumbs up.

SkyeBlue,

No that's not what I meant so I'm glad you asked. I think sex is HUGE! I'm accutely aware of how pleasurable sex is and that is why I describe it as a great gift. What I meant was pertaining to the consequence of the act, or why God gave us this gift. From a really big picture perspective the biological purpose of sex is to mate and to produce offspring. The pleasure and the emotional or health benefits are exactly that, benefits. Hey, if wasn't any fun, no one would do it. I'll be the first to exclaim that everybody should have more sex!!! Including me, dag it! It shouldn't be so hard to be married. It shouldn't be so hard to raise children. It shouldn't be so hard to keep a roof over your head. It should be easy. A child should be something to celebrate, not put in a dumpster because society made a teenager think that having a baby was the worst thing that could possibly happen to you and would ruin your life. I think people should get married as soon as they're "hormonally" ready and spend much, much more time than the average person does nowadays having the kind of sex that TS was describing above. See, by denying God in our lives, we have made it damn near impossible to have sex the way He wanted us to. I mean geez, we have to control the shit out of EVERYTHING, including sex. It's pretty fundamental for crying out loud. I think that raising a family should be a much, much bigger part of all of our lives than it is. The way I see it is that we've screwed up the entire system, the entire society, with greed primarily, but the other deadly six are in there too, so much that we spend all this time and energy and of course money trying to find ways of still collecting on all the "benefits" of sex, but to avoid those nasty consequences, those being children. We're too f'ing busy making money, and what are you going to do starve? Starve your children even worse right? Well how about this? If you don't want kids, then don't have sex. Sounds fair to me. Don't you guys see that God made these laws for a purpose? People are always arguing with me as if His laws are somehow arbitrarily set with the sole purpose of control and with egotistical intent! Doesn't what I'm talking about just SCREAM that we should just leave it up to Him and stop screwing around with the laws! Pardon the pun. Do you know that I heard on the evening news (like it was a big story or something), that there was a study done, and the results showed that daycare had a negative effect on the bond or relationship between a child and it's parents. Could I just shout out a big fat DUH here or what!!!??? Duh!

Also, honey don't get me started about the judgemental "shame on you" Christians. That makes me so mad, even just the "better than you" sentiment, or the "shame on you" sentiment makes me mad, but violence is just out in left field somewhere. All I can say is that lot's of people justify hate and judgement and violence,and for lot's of different reasons, but none of those reasons are Jesus or the Word of God in it's true meaning and intent. I agree with what you say regarding someone's intentions. Intentions are key in EVERYTHING we do. But the only intention that a Christian should have towards others is their salvation in Christ and to love them as God does. That's enough, I'd say. Sharing the Word and witnessing are ways to act upon that intention of their salvation. Anyone who judges is looking for a way to convince themselves that another man's sin is greater than his own. I can speak from personal experience that your own sin is quite enough to keep you occupied. I doubt if you should really have the time to judge others. It makes me angry when I see a preacher say the word homosexual and get that snarled up, crossed-brow look on their face as if this entire group of people are the devil themselves. As if people are homosexuals because they're evil. I'm sure there are some real evil homos out there, but I think it's safe to say that doesn't have a damn thing to do with their sexuality, as there are a lot of real evil straight people out there as well. Gay sex isn't any more of a sin than any other kind of sex that falls short of God's ideal for us, and is true to Him. And I'd say that accounts for about 99.9999999% of the sex that goes on nowadays, and surely all of the sex that I've had during my lifetime until just recently. Using birth control and turning up your nose at homosexuals, huh? Very interesting, hypocrit. That was directed at no one in particular BTW.

And as far as the picture of my husband goes, you know I'm a real true fan of the whole physical, hormonal, animal attraction thing, I mean I love men! I am a huge manliness appreciator, but I just can't see the point in a picture like that. For one, why would I want a picture when I could have the real thing, and another, it's so superficial and meaningless you know? I mean it's supposed to be what's on the inside that counts right? Don't get me wrong, my husband is a cutey-pituty, but honestly, THAT kind of pose? I just think that it's really focusing on the lustful "flesh" part of sex and not the part that really makes it worth while. LOL! This reminds me of some guy I was with before I met my husband. Sporadic one night stands over a few months time is how I would best describe the relationship. He was a cutey too; he had Elvisness. :) But anyway, he would try to get me to talk dirty to him, and I just can't stand that. Obviously, this was before I was saved, but even then I just thought nothing could be more cheesy or pointless. To the point of being irritating you know, it's like I'm trying to concentrate already! So I go along with it for a while, hoping to appease this little fetish of his, but to no avail. And unfortunately his technique could have used some work as well. I finally said to him, "Hey -----, do you see any cameras in here? This is no f'ing porno movie here ok, so just shut up and kiss me." ROFLMAO!

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

666

12-08-99, 12:59 AM

Lori,

I just think that it's really focusing on the lustful "flesh" part of sex and not the part that really makes it worth while.

You original said that sex is just for making babies, but you have made many statments like the above that suggest that you are looking for something more that making babies. A little lustfull sex can be a great deal of fun once in a while. :)

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

666

12-08-99, 02:22 AM

Truestory,

He was a fool when he decided to defend himself on murder charges. This probably is one of the best clues to Ted's mind.He believed that he could fool everyone... He blames the use of porn for all of his murderous ways. He made an attempt to extend his life by offering to help locate the bodies of other girls that he killed. He tried to use this as a bargaining chip, but it failed. Bundy was executed for his crimes in the State of Flordia.

This is the type of underlining problem I was speaking of. A happy home life doesn't allways equal a sane person. On top of that It apears that Bundy was just grasping at straws to try and prolong his life.

A) Pornography can harm women that are forced to participate in pornography. Many of the women that participate in pornography materials are from poor socio-economic backgrounds and are forced or coerced into submission, dehumanization, and brutilization in the production process. These women are often "exploited in pornography are very poor, many of them illiterate, and also because there is a great deal of female compliance with brutality, and the compliance is based on fear, it's based on powerlessness, and it is based on a reaction to the very real violence of the pornographers" (Stan 33). Participants in the films are frequently known to be beaten, raped, imprisoned, bound, gagged, and tortured (Gostin 155). Many films that are circulating contain actual rapes. Although women have not quite received the protection against the harm, the Supreme Court have voiced their opinions against kiddie pornography as in New York v. Ferber (Gostin 155).

The participants are not the only ones harmed. The surrounding community suffer greatly from the effects of pornography. Andrea Dworkin claims that the pornography industry is money-based to continue the economic divisions between the poor and the rich. Dworkin states that "zoning laws impose pornography on poor neighborhoods, on working-class neighborhoods, on neighborhoods where people of color live, an all of those e people have to deal with the increase in crime, the terrible harassment, the degradation of the quality of life in their neighborhoods, and the politicians get to protect the property values of the rich" (Stan 31).

B) The existence of pornography increases the level if sexual violence. Lab studies have proved that men that are exposed to pornography have reported aggressive sexual fantasies and a reduced sensitivity towards women. These lab studies have also shown that men are more willing to accept rape and violence as pleasurable to women. The studies took men and exposed them to pornography over a period of two weeks. With increased exposure, they began to become less offended by the violent sexual acts, yet their arousal increased (Hill). The studies indicated that 57% of males would commit rape if they were guaranteed not to get caught (Hill). The men also increasingly believed, with prolonged exposure, that 30% of women would enjoy being raped (Hill). Studies have also shown a correlation between distribution of pornography and an increase of reported rapes. In countries that have liberated, such as the United States, and the United Kingdom, the pornography laws were seen to have an increase in reported rapes (Gostin 157). With in the United States, states with less pornographic material distributed also reported less rapes (Hill).

C) Pornography gives perpetrators of sexual assault a "how to manual" to unlawful activities (Gostin 157). Many cases have linked their sexual assault to actual pornographic films. Dworkin's web site reveals many stories that show pornography's relation to rape. Here is one of the stories:

A) I can only hope that in the USA people are not forced into the porno industrie. The authtur didn't state one way or the other. The authur could have been siting examples from other coutries ware thses sort of things are socaily exceptable. None the less it is wrong and the people doing should be arrested and delt with appropriatly.

B)Once again there is no mention of how many of thses men polled have been predisposed to thses action in first. Did they do any psychoanalysis before and after? After all this is a psychological issue we are talking about here.

C) Once again these in my beleif these people would have done it any way. Wether or not given a how-to manual or not any normal person would not commit such an act.

The secound link you gave completly ignores one aspect of this, pron for women, and don't tell there is no pron for women. Are women given some sort of devin right that enables them to block out this supposed brain washing?

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 07, 1999).]

truestory

12-08-99, 02:49 AM

666,

Hi. Good point. First... let me say that I do not necessarily share every view on that website. Second... actually, there is a link on that page which addresses just that... porn for women and women as consumers of pornographic material.

The main question which that website addressed was, "Is pornography harmful to women?" Perhaps there are others which address whether or not pornography is harmful to men? (Ted Bundy seems to think that it was the only underlying factor which caused him to deviate).

As for my opinion on how porn "for women" affects men in the long-run... Let me just say that the affect on men is not due to something that "women generally have MORE of" it is due to something that "women generally have LESS of" and that is "testosterone". Although women can be very assertive, women do have less of a tendency to act out agressively and violently.

In general, as I have alluded before, I believe that porn hurts society in general... That would include men, women, children and animals in some cases.

SkyeBlue

12-08-99, 03:16 PM

I'm pretty torn on the whole porn thing, myself. I consider myself to be an extremely liberal person, where sex is concerned. In my book, anything that doesn't hurt another person, or infringe upon their rights in any way is perfectly acceptable amongst adults.

So the question for me really IS - does porn cause harm? I can't figure that one out, I puzzle over it every couple of years, and still haven't found the answers. I'm not a Christian, so the whole sin/hell/satan thing is irrelevant to my definition of "harm".

Porn doesn't really appeal to ME, but then again, I'm female and porn seems to be primarily slanted towards a male audience. My husband used to look at porn, but he couldn't face me about it. I didn't get angry or freaky about it, but I DID want to discuss it with him. He had a real hard time with that, he was ashamed of it. So that makes me think that it's bad, at least for him - otherwise why be ahsamed? He knows how liberal I am, he knows I have an open mind, he knows I wouldn't divorce him, or break up or even yell at him... So HE must think it's wrong and that's why he couldn't stand to talk about it. Know what I mean?

When I see porn, it doesn't shock or offend me. The really explicit stuff is just gross, as far as I'm concerned. The REALLY weird stuff kinda scares me - the S&M kind of stuff - now THAT stuff I do have a problem with, but Playboy (Pornography-lite, I call it) is not offensive to me. Some of their photographs are actually pretty artistic (sometimes, not always).

I do appreciate the beauty of the nude body - I have several lovely black and white photographs of nude men and women - not sexual, but more sensual, I suppose. They're not sticking fingers into themselves, or grinning past a faceful of white goo...ugh. Just posing alone, or together, in respectable poses. But I don't consider that porn - it's not designed to elicit the sexual response. But I DO have a very sexy photo of my hubby that I wouldn't part with. MMMmmm, hmm, that man is fine! ;) But he's not even completely naked in the photo, so I guess that doesn't count.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't get aroused by porn. Perhaps because I'm female, perhaps because (Like you Lori) I figure why bother with a photo when there's a warm loving body so handy?? But I think porn can be many things to many people. I think with the Ted Bundy types out there, porn is more of a symptom of a bigger problem than the cause of the problem.

666

12-09-99, 01:16 AM

Truestory,

After your last post I did a little more searching on that site. I didn't find anything about porn for women :( . Allthough I did find this and thought it was kinda interesting.

Censoring porongraphy sends the message that women need to be protected. Women aren't responsible enough to make their own decisions about creating pornography. "Censorship implies that women are by nature weak and powerless creature who require protection from men who are in turn violent and aggressive by nature," (WAC).

Dworkin and MacKinnon, in their model legislation, say it best.

"Children are incapable of consenting to engage in pornographic conduct, even absent physical coercion, and therefore require special protection. By the same token, the physical and psychological well-being of women ought to be afforded comparable protection." MacKinnon and Dworkin

Another thing I found interesting was the "free speach v's civial rights" section. Both seemed to at such extreams, and seemed to present conflicting information. For example the civial rights side state the presence of porn contributes to sexual assults. While the free speach side cites that Japan which has fart more violent porn than the us , but yet has a lower amout rape per 100,000 capita. Makes it all the more confusing.

I do agree with you that in most cases men ar more agresive the women. I belive that cultural up bringing has a lot to do with it to. Men need to be tuaght when they are boys what it means to be a Man. A penis is only the physical part. Of course this blends this whole thing into the family unit and such. Just as a side note, a while back I was reading an article about this very subject that addressed not only the other side of the feminist movement, but the importance of a father in a boy's formitive years. It asserted that there are things that a mother can only teach her daughter about being a women and like wise that there are things that only a father can teach his son about being a man.

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 08, 1999).]

tablariddim

12-10-99, 08:01 PM

Before I became a born again christian, I used to occasionaly enjoy hard core porn. While I was a b a c I couldn't stand to watch it, it offended my christian heart, I could feel the exploitation of the actors, I could see the bruises on the womens thighs, I could imagine them being drugged and forced to do these despicable things, it was awfully sad.
Now that I'm not a b a c anymore, I can enjoy hard core again, I don't feel guilty about it, I can see that most of the actors have great bodies, look healthy and seem to do their job with relish and they get paid handsomely for it! you could say I'm a porn again non christian.
Ofcourse I know that exploitation does go on, but exploitation is insidious in every industry isn't it?
Does it lead to rape? only if you have an aptitude for it. If you're the type of person who can gain pleasure from physically dominating/violating another then you can probably enjoy raping and you wouldn't need to watch porn necessarily, in order to get that urge. But undoubtedly I'm sure it helps! having said that, I'm sure lots of other things may be able to trigger a rapists urges, it may be alcohol or drugs, it may be the smell of a perfume or the sound of a song, it may be a memory recall of his hateful mother that pushes him, in any case it's psychological and not the exclusive fault of porn.
Is porn addictive? I think that as with any mood altering substance, an addictive type of personality can get hooked on porn, that is, he would want to use it every day. We know that addictive personalities usually have other deep rooted problems which cause them to be like that, but if it makes them happy, what's wrong with being hooked?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating withdrawal from society, family and friends in order to immerse yourself full time in your favourite vices, while neglecting your health, wealth and happiness..no. But as my dear old great gran'ma used to say, "a little bit of what youse fancies, does you good m'dear!"
Is porn positive? It can help men and women attain sexual arousal and autorelief, in many instances this can be desirable. While your husband is away for two weeks on business, would you rather he visited a whore? had a mini affair with the hotel maid? or watched a movie and had a w*nk?
It can help sexually jaded couples to get in the spirit and get it on.
It can teach you new tricks, yes you too.
Tracey Lord! I'm porn agin'.

Lori

12-11-99, 07:07 PM

Wow, all I can say is that I'm sorry Tab. You seemed to illustrate very well how being born again changes your perspective and perception. What in the world happened that now allows you to rationalize ignoring this perspective now?

666,

You asked what is wrong with a little lustful sex now and again, as long as no one gets hurt. You advocate pornography as long as no one gets hurt. I think that the fact that someone can get hurt means something. I think that the act of sex comes with rules, because the act has consequence, like most anything else. So what are the rules, and who made them up, and why? And this same arguement applies to lots of things other than sex as well. The question always comes down to where do you draw the line you know? I say that God draws the line, and where He draws it is for our own benefit. You say that we draw it, and we draw it where ever the hell we want to, as long as we don't cross over someone else's line. And I'm saying that where God draws the line makes sense to me for a lot of reasons, because of my own life experience and with what I see in the world. I'm going to try to explain it...

I'm going to get personal, which I don't mind a bit, as I am a big honesty advocate, and I like to be as scrutinous with myself as I tend to be with others, which people really hate that BTW, but it's the only way I know how to learn the truth.

Truth is I'm a real horn-dog. I just don't think there are that many better ways to spend your time than having sex. And truthfully, I'm extremely lustful, I just don't sugar coat it when I see it. I recognize it for what it is, and adjust my reaction to it accordingly. Well, now I do, but I didn't used to necessarily. The way I feel about lust is...sex is like pizza, when it's good, it's really good, and when it's bad, it's still pretty good. Literally. My idea of a good porno is the 1968 Elvis comeback TV special. Mommy help me. Or how about the movie "Legends of the Fall"? Worst movie I've ever seen if my life. I swear, was there ONE scene in that whole movie that wasn't tragic, and that wimpy ass woman sobbing every 5 seconds? Geez. But I tell you what I'd watch that movie over and over and over, cause I'm not paying attention to the stupid story ok? Me and Brad are off in la-la land gettin' it on. Yea, I could tame that beast alright. And that's what it's like for me to be with a man, and there's just nothing better than that. And quite honestly, there are a hell of a lot of men out there that turn me on when I think about having sex with them. And even more honestly, there have been other things that I've found that do so as well. Even things that make me feel sad and empty when I focus on what they represent. For example, not too long ago, I was in this club and man, I got an eyefull all right. A place called Connections in Louisville. Yea, I'd say there were some connections going on there all over the place for sure. I'd been to clubs like this before, after hours dance places, lots of "club kids", and people just out to get laid. Sex is like some "exercise" and everyone is so concerned about how fabulous they are. Within 5 minutes of being in the place, I saw a guy who was only wearing underwear anyway (not even nice looking ones, I'm talking fruit of the loom briefs, ok?), pull them down to show off his thingy. Not many guys had their shirts on, some wearing g-strings, some in chaps with nothing underneath. I go to the restroom, and the doors to the stalls are real low so you can see someone face to face if you're standing up. And in the corner stall, which is bigger than the rest, there's at least four girls in there "in a huddle", and I'm standing on the other side of the door looking at them like, "excuse me, but do you mind, I've gotta pee?" This little blonde turned around and looked at me on the way out. You could tell she was just sooooooo wasted. I know what that looks like, and she's just standing there swaying back and forth looking at me like she'd like me to join the party. I must have had a look on my face because her friends quickly removed her from my way. I was there with a friend, and me and her were there drinking and talking about religion of course, debating of course, so we were oblivious to most of what was going on by choice. But one time when she went to use the restroom, I sat there and tried not to watch that blonde chick and one other chick from the bathroom stall absolutely grinding on top of each other on some couches right across from where I was sitting. It turned me on for sure, even though I thought that it was one of the most pointless, meaningless, sad things I'd ever witnessed. It's contradictions like that that illustrate my faith to me, and the reason I seek the truth in the first place. In places like this, God just slaps me right upside the head. The hollowness, meaninglessness of it all, and where it comes from. The sadness of knowing that everyone in that place really just wants to find someone to love them for who they really are, just like everyone does. By the time I left a place called the Warehouse in Cincy, I was physically sick to my stomach. I couldn't help it. Anyway, so the point is that LOTS of things can turn a person on, some good, some not so good. You can agree with that right? It just makes the point that there are rules that exist, so what are they and why? To me, it always comes back to an ideal which God created for us. I find that the best sex is based upon love and trust and committment. Life-long committment, and don't ya know that's exactly what best fosters a child's development, the child being the ultimate consequence of sex. And it's exactly what is spoken of in the Bible about marriage. Sex is supposed to be intimate and sacred and cherished between two people who have enough trust in a commitment to be able to enjoy it in an ideal sense. A way that I really think none of us even can probably imagine to the fullest extent. But I do think that if we're all really honest, we can see the difference that the rules make. We justify settling for less though, because we're weak and give in to temptations that we all have to one degree or another. That's sin isn't it? Man, I've been on here forever. Got to go. Later.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 12, 1999).]

Searcher

12-11-99, 09:49 PM

Lori,

About Brad Pitt, although blonde hair and blue eyes isn't normally my type, I'll make an exception for Brad. And he did look particularly good in that movie! By the way, what was that movie about? :)
I prefer the Johnny Depp type, as far as looks go (although he tends to play some really strange characters in his movies). I particularly liked Johnny in Don Juan DeMarco - what a cutie! Or how about the singer/lead guitarist in Indigenous - Mato Nanji? He's not all that photogenic, but in person - whoa! ;)

As for Connections, although I hardly consider myself a prude, I couldn't have stayed in a place like that long enough to see that guy show his thingy, or to have to use the restroom, for that matter! Yuck!

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

FyreStar

12-12-99, 03:40 AM

To interject my thoughts on pornography.. my opinion is that if people like the stuff, they are welcome to it. It can get extremely digsusting (from my point of view anyways), but you know what they say.. to each their own. What I do object to is the people who say that pornography leads to rape or other sexual crimes. I file suggestions like that in the circular file next to 'playing violent video games leads to violence'. Whoever says that is simply offended by pornography and doesn't know enough to keep their mouths shut about it. It is coincidence, not causality. Or perhaps there is causality, but in the opposite direction; in other words, maybe sex offenders are more likely to look at pornography than law-abiding citizens. However, any way you look at it, somebody who commits that crime had to be rather 'messed up' in the first place. If playing 'Quake' is going to make your first grader go in to school and shoot somebody, you should have taken him to a psychologist rather than handing him a computer.

FyreStar

tablariddim

12-12-99, 03:51 PM

Dear Lori,
'reasons to be cheerful part 3',

why did I change my perspective?
The answer is, that my perspective is still basically the same, only wider, because I have followed my heart and brain and taken a step back.

Why did I reject the faith you find so inspiring?
Well for one, I just couldn't stomach the politics of it, eg. god made man (Adam) from scratch, using earth and water, then he breathed life into him. After a while god noticed! that Adam was lonely and could do with a mate. I'm sure it must have been a great surprise for god that Adam was lonely, I mean how could it have even crossed his mind?
Anyway, what does god do, does he make another man, so that Adam can have a good old fashioned platonic buddy? no, god decides in all his wisdom not to actually make another man from scratch but to make a WOman using only a spare rib from Adam. A spare rib! what a classic way to make women feel insignificant and unworthy. Woman, an afterthought, a spare rib of a MAN, belonging to MAN, existing purely to serve MAN (and god)who is her reason for being given life in the first place.
So remember Lori, YOU, a WOman, were made by god, as an afterthought, simply to be of service to men and don't you forget it!

To carry on, why did god make a female? a female is equipped with the capacity to conceive and reproduce, something which sometimes incurs great agony and often (as in the past) death. Why did god make Eve ready to take on that role if she wasn't meant to suffer? It means that god knew that satan would deceive her (as she was only a weak willed woman ofcourse) and it puts paid to the notion of freewill, because everything is obviously contrived and planned by god!

Later in Deutoronomy, the apparent message from god involves stuff such as burning the bed clothes your wife may have discharged in, not touching your wife at all for around a week during her menstrual cycle and in fact moving out of the home altogether during the period. Mysoginism continues.
Lori, 'you a woman? ugh..you're not menstruating are you? yucks, Im logging off!

Please don't be offended Lori, nothing personal is intended, I'm just trying to make a point of the way women are promoted in the bible and why I couldn't take it anymore. Later on the bible forbids women to speak in the church, new testament as well. God doesn't seem to put much faith in women does he?

Ofcourse you're going to say, 'but christians don't behave like that' or, 'but Jesus came to change all that' or you're gonna give me some clever interpretation or explanation that I've got the wrong end of the broomhandle, but unless you can come up with a good excuse for the horseshit, I cannot accept the rest of that book, except as one of the most cynical and powerful political tools ever devised.

And so we come to christianity, Jesus apparently came to fulfil prophecies made in the old testament (which is full of political propaganda devised to humble and subdue the proles) and this is how devout believers attest to his credibility. So If I'm going to believe what it says in the new testament I have to accept and believe the old testament as well. A religion which I see as being very clearly contrived by man, in order to control! Well, for all the above reasons, I cannot accept the old testament and by default, neither can I naturally accept the new. As it, is inextricably combined with the old.

As far as I know, and I stand to be corrected on this, my lay knowledge of the bible tells me that the new testament was originally written in Greek, around 100 years after Jesus died. There are very few remnants of the original manuscripts in existence if any and the official bible has always been worked on and revised by special monks in absolute secrecy. Apparently a lot of stuff has been censored or omitted from the bible over the millenia and it makes you think about how distorted the actual thing is!!!

And here's something else, fresh and from
the gut!
How do we even know the accuracy of the original Greek manuscripts-written a hundred years after the fact. Ever heard of chinese whispers?
How do we even know for a fact that Jesus changed his disciples names to Greek ones?
I think it's more than likely that the writers added this as a ploy to attract their new recruits to the faith, Christianity having originated in Greek speaking cultures.

I think I've made my reasons pretty clear, think about them Lori, I know that christians have a hard time thinking about stuff like this because they think it's coming from Satan, but it's not Satan it's all a state of mind. God and Satan are a state of mind.
This is why I can partake modestly of the carnal pleasures of this world by using logic and discretion and without feeling guilty that I can enjoy my senses. I just changed my state of mind..'s all.

I perceive from your posting that you definitely like to take walks on the wild side, am I wrong?
I think you enjoy the challenge of getting so close to something you would probably dearly love to do, (even as occasional recreation) but avoiding it. I think this may be why you have swallowed Jesus whole so to speak (pun int), because you may be afraid of what you may get up to if left to your own designs.
I've got a very good friend who chose christianity for this very reason, he knew that he could be outrageously promiscuous if left to his inner desires and Christianity acted as his therapy to subdue him.

Speak later

Searcher

12-12-99, 07:18 PM

Tab,

I just wanted to say that I think your last post is right on the mark! And quite amusing, as well! :)

I don't understand why Christians are so blind to these points, except that maybe it's one of the requirements of being a Christian. How can you be a Christian if you question any of the golden bits of wisdom the Bible is filled with? It's a clever way of keeping control of the masses, I suppose - but it's not for me!

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

666

12-15-99, 12:43 AM

Tab,

Imagine me doing the Wayne and Garth "I'm not worthy" bow. In your last 2 post you stated the thoughts I could not find the correct words for!

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

Oxygen

12-15-99, 12:47 AM

tab- Rounds and rounds of applause from my camp. We are physical creatures, we have physical needs and desires. Abstinence is for monks.

Lori

12-15-99, 11:05 AM

You guys are soooooooo obtuse. No one on this forum is advocating abstenance. Only responsibility and glory to God. We were given a gift, I think it's safe to assume that God wants us all to have great sex, he just wants you to realize what it's for, and how it should be done. There are rules, you guys think you make them up, I think God does, and you know what? I bet that God's rules lead to 100X better sex than your own rules do, and there's a reason for that. Abstinance is appropriate only as an alternative for sex for the wrong reasons. Get that?

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

SkyeBlue

12-15-99, 12:22 PM

Lori -

Heh, heh, God's rules leading to 100X better sex?? Wow, hey, that's pretty awesome. I think if sex got 100 times better, I'd be passing out halfway through every time! Zang! Pow! (Pass out) ;)

tablariddim

12-15-99, 01:19 PM

"May the lord bless this lovely looking thing I'm about to eat, yummy!"
slurp!...ZONK!!!!!!!!!

Lori

12-15-99, 02:39 PM

Yea, remember how we were talking about loveless sex, and how sex when you're in love, and the right emotions, and trust, and committment is there, how it's sooooooo much better? If I'm not mistaken, it was Searcher who felt the need to take pity on me because she/he thought that I had never had sex with someone I loved and was committed to. Well, Searcher was wrong, and I do know the difference it makes, and so does everyone else on this board, except maybe Tab, who seems to be evil incarnate, and can be used as an excellent example of why it is we all seek the truth. Because we sure as hell don't want to end up that ****ed up, eh? I'm talking about abstinence INSTEAD of settling, not instead of doing it, and doing it for the right reasons. That's your whole arguement in every circumstance about God. "Oh, that big meanie God! He doesn't want me to have any fun. Waaaaa!" Well, guess what? You couldn't be more wrong. God wants you to do it right, and if you do it right, you would have more fun in this life than you would know what the hell to do with.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

SkyeBlue

12-15-99, 02:49 PM

Lori -

What you call "settling" I call "practice".

I have been lucky enough to have several lovers in my life so far, my husband is my one true love, but I wouldn't trade any of my other experiences for the world. Even the not-so-good ones contained lessons I was able to learn before I was in a marriage. And my husband and I lived together for a good 2 years before finalizing our marriage, and as I have mentioned before, God wasn't invited to our wedding. And the sex still keeps getting better! LOL, God doesn't need to be in my heart for good sex. I just need an open mind, a little music maybe... If I were to take another lover tomorrow, nope, the sex wouldn't be as good as it is with my hubby, I'm sure of it. But that's because sex is like anything else, it takes practice to learn how to do it well. Like a dance, once you learn your partner's responses, your own become more fine-tuned. Practice, practice, practice. It's a hard job, but, hey, someone's got to do it! ;)

Lori

12-15-99, 03:00 PM

Tab,

What is it that you're about to eat? Oh yea, that would be crow.

Sky,

You're being obtuse. I know very well that there is a "learning curve". Takes time to train those beasts, eh? But you can practice with your husband. You don't have to practice by engaging in fornication or adultery, you can practice within a marriage based upon love, trust, and committment. Right? Just let me hear you say it once. I'm right, arent' I? :)

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

tablariddim

12-15-99, 06:58 PM

Lori,

quote:
-and I do know the difference it makes, and so does everyone else on this board, except maybe Tab, who seems to be evil incarnate, and can be used as an excellent example of why it is we all seek the truth. Because we sure as hell don't want to end up that ****ed up, eh? -

I'm sorry did I miss something? I have promoted nothing but love in my posts. 'Evil incarnate'? 'Tab(sic) is the reason you all seek the truth'? 'that *****d up eh'?

Please explain what you mean, I'm utterly fascinated by your distorted perception of me. If I was a rock star I would have been flattered, but as I'm not and as I'm usually treated with the upmost love and respect for my understated good deeds and moral intergrity by those that know me, I really don't get it.

By the way what's 'crow'? is it something you eat in the USA?

SkyeBlue

12-15-99, 07:29 PM

Lori -

*I* am being obtuse? Are you sure you know the definition of that word? Nevermind, I don't care.

Lori, I always 'fess up when I agree with you, it has happened before, but you seem to have forgotten about that. I just happen to disagree with you here.

As far as practicing with my husband, sure I COULD, but do I want to?? Before I was married I couldn't practice with a husband, because I didn't have one at the time. Now who's being obtuse?

Sure I don't HAVE to participate in fornication or adultery, but you know what? I LIKE fornication! I LIKE adultery! I don't call it that, of course, because those words don't really have a lot of meaning to me, but essentially, YOWZA, bring it on, babe!

Perhaps you see me as immoral. Fine! I frankly don't care what you or anyone else thinks of my sex life. Know why? Because it's MY sex life and it's only of concern to me and those (lucky, lucky men) I'm having sex with.

So, Lori, unless you want to sleep with me, I'm inclined to say...now how does that saying go? Oh yeah, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! Which has been my main theme throughout this thread, if you recall.

And who says a marriage based on love, trust, and commitment must be monogamous? Perhaps for you, perhaps even for the majority of the people this is true. But historically and even in present day there are many, many people living quite happily in non-monogamous relationships and marriages. MY marriage IS based on love, trust, and commitment, not on sex. Sex is great, and certainally adds spice to a marriage, but that's not what marriage is all about. Can't you see that? Perhaps that isn't how YOUR marriage is/was/would be, but that's how mine works. And if that's what works for hubby & I, who is to say that's wrong? YOU? Why should we care what you think?? Mom? Is that you??

SkyeBlue

12-15-99, 07:34 PM

Tab'-

No, no, you see, you're evil because you don't believe in Lori's God. You might have the capacity to enjoy sex outside of a marriage, which is OBVIOUSLY a trait of none other than, GASP!, SSAAAAAATTTTTAAAAANNNNN!!!!

Sheesh, for someone who claims to have "been there, done that", our friend Lori is awfully intolerant of anybody that doesn't share her view, doncha think?

Yah, Lori, I've been nice to you all along, and stood up for you when I thought you were being picked on. But you have such an abrasive personality and an inability to see past the end of your own nose that I'm tired of being nice to you.

Lori

12-15-99, 08:03 PM

Oh really? You guys are taking this pretty hard aren't you? Why do you assume that I am judging you? Why do you tell me to mind my own business when I thought that the whole point of this discussion was to share differring viewpoints? I'm just trying to explain to you how I view the implications of my faith from a sexual standpoint. I think you may be getting frustrated trying to prove your point, as you basically just gave up in your last post by saying the typical, "well, it doesn't have to make sense, and it doesn't have to be the right thing to do, it's just what I want to do, so mind your own business". And I certainly would, mind you, if you were not posting your business on an open forum.

Tab,

I'm sorry, I was just exaggerating ok? You do seem a little off-kilter to me though. The whole thing about the hard-care porno and bruising and such really made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. What I meant to say, if I would have worded it better, is that you seem to have a vehement animosity towards Jesus and His Word. That's what I meant. Are you being abducted by aliens? Being visited by being's o' light?

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

SkyeBlue

12-15-99, 08:45 PM

Lori -

Where did I ever say "it doesn't have to be the right thing"? For me, it IS the right thing, and that's my whole point!

You know, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop twisting my words around. Perhaps that's an accident and you don't realize it, but that's what you're doing here, and I'm not your only victim.

Okay, maybe I did jump on you a little too hard, you're right, this is a public forum. But that sure felt like a personal attack to me, perhaps I have overreacted. I say perhaps because I'm still not convinced that you're just trying to 'get my goat'. This forum is designed for us to debate our views, not for you or anyone else to go off on people that don't happen to share your world view. Just because someone doesn't share your perceptions doesn't give you the right to badger and ridicule them.

And, you know what, your opinon is JUST an opinion. Your fun little quip; "Right? Just let me hear you say it once. I'm right, arent' I? " just ticked me off. You do realize there is a way to state your opinion without being a total 'female dog' about it, don't you? Ever hear the phrase "you'll catch more bees with honey than you will with vinegar?" I am open to debate, I ENJOY a debate, but I will not accept some chick with that kind of an attitude telling me how it is.

I have offered nothing but courtesy to you up until that last post, but you can't seem to handle the fact that there are people out there that don't share your views and/or lifestyle, but somehow manage to be happy healthy people anyway. This is a forum for debate, not for you to give me crap with all your "you are so obtuse", "you couldn't be more wrong", and "get that?" type comments.

You know, Lori, I think I object to your tone more than I object to anything you're saying. Has life been so bitter that you can't stand to be polite to those that hold opinions other than your own?? I bet you a hundred bucks that if you softened your tone just a little bit, you'd get a lot more agreement from just about everyone on this board.

Let me list a few sayings that I am particularly fond of. Some of these I'm sure you'll recognize, and I think at least a couple of these relate well to what I'm trying to express here:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

"It is far better to have people think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it."

And, one of my all time favorites:
"There, but for the grace of God, goes I"

Now, what do you say we back off of eachother a bit, eh? You say you've "been there, done that", where is your perspective? I mean, c'mon now, surely you know you can be wrong? If you were wrong before, why not entertain the theory that you could be wrong again? You're only human, right?? I admit I can be wrong, in fact, I did right in this very post. If I can be gracious, can't you return the favor?? In return, I'll continue to be nice to you. I probably should have cushioned my wording a little better in my last post, it is not my intention to turn this into a "b!tch fight". I probably wouldn't have been able to continue being mean anyway, it's just not part of my nature.

So, what do you say Lori? Truce??

[This message has been edited by SkyeBlue (edited December 15, 1999).]

Lori

12-15-99, 11:32 PM

What the hell did I even say? That you were being obtuse, as in the opposite of acute, as in not making a clear point. Hey, at least I didn't call you a bitch right? Yea, it could have been worse. Maybe like the response I got from you. You know, I was just trying to egg you on, you know, sarcastically? You guys may not believe this, but the people I know outside of cyber-world actually think I'm extremely funny. And you all misinterpret me all the time. Do you know why? I'll tell you why. I had to reconcile it in my head after I got my ass chewed out for the 100th or so time over the Inquisition, or shoving my religion down someone's throat, or the sins of every church goer that ever lived, or cussing, or whatever the dig of the day happened to be. It's because I'm a Christian. And what screws everybody up is that I don't fit the mold. Remember why you have a certain amount of animosity towards Christianity? Because of the sins of the church throughout history, the judgementalism, hypocracy, oppression, even violence. Because some "church people", some Christians, think that they are holier than thou, better than you, and perfect themselves, and rationalize sin even while preaching. They're all fluffy, you know, with their "God bless you's", and oh no, they would never cuss!

I'M NOT THAT PERSON!!!!

Everyone else out here gets to go off and say anything they want, and believe me, I haved laughed my ass off at some of the sarcasm that I've read on this board. You people make assumptions about me that are unfounded because you keep trying to stuff me into your pre-formed mold of a Christian (want to talk about racism, Tab?). So then when I don't talk like one, you think I'm going off. I'm not going off, ok? Please don't make me talk fluffy. I'm begging you, I'm just not a fluff chick. Never wanted to be and never will. People take their animosity towards other Christians out on me and it frustrates me, because I'm a nice person, and I don't deserve to be judged by anyone other than God. I don't judge others; I can't. And don't ever mistake what I'm doing out here as judgement. It's a debate; an arguement. We're doing this on purpose remember? Arguing this stuff out here with you helps me to learn myself, and helps me to grow in my faith, and I enjoy it. So instead of picturing me like the "church lady", with a scowl on my face, and my nose up in the air, why don't you picture me with a smile? I do smile, ya know? :) See?

Why can't we get married before we start practicing? Listen, I'm not being obtuse ok? (See, admit it, that was a little funny) I know why it's not EASY to wait to get married. Did you get the impression that I did wait? Now THAT'S funny! You think I'm being judgemental of you huh? Well, would you like to know how many men I've slept with in my 32 years? Sorry, I have no flippin' idea. LOL! If I HAD to guess, I would guess 80, give or take a few. Would you like me to name them? LMAO! Sorry, but I didn't quite catch them all. It was awfully noisy in those bars, ya know. AND consider that I was off the market for maybe 10-11 years in monogamous relationships. Anyway, it's hard to do because we make it hard on ourselves. Society has not fostered an environment that makes it easy to make that kind of committment at all, much less at an early age. But what I'm saying is that God DID NOT want it to be this way. It shouldn't be so hard. And since it IS so hard, and the reason being that no one even cares about or acknowledges God anymore, and WE are the ones who foster this insane society of greed, then WE are the ones who should have to go without sex because we're so damn stupid! And guess what would happen if we did? We would actually make the changes necessary within society to make sure that as soon as we hit puberty, we could get married, screw like bunnies, and have a bunch of kids, and it wouldn't be considered a BAD thing. Is this making any sense at all? What I'm saying is that we shouldn't have to screw around with our screwing around like we do. :)

Sky, you don't like fornication and adultery, you like sex. Just like I do, and just like everyone else does. I would honestly consider myself border line nympho ok? The older I get, I swear....anyway...You are just denying that there exists such a thing as fornication and adultery, because you deny God.

And listen, I hope that I've made this clear, but I think that you're probably just as "moral", whatever that means, as I am, or the next guy, or the next. I'm not judging you.

I do think that sex should have everything to do with love, trust, and committment, just like Jesus said. I think that it's supposed to be more than just an exercise, or entertainment. I don't think that it's supposed to be about self-gratification. I don't even get busy with myself anymore. ;) And you think THAT'S been easy since I've been separated? NOT! But it sure does help when I pray, and it helps to know that I'm doing the right thing. Listen, if things don't work out with the hubby, and he decides to end our marriage, do you know what I'm going to be? What's referred to as a "born-again virgin". That makes me laugh and cry at the same time. Well, I can honestly say that I've had enough sex for about 10 women's lifetimes, and it sure did leave me feeling empty, like it definately should mean something more than it did. I justified it just like everyone. Hey, it wasn't like I was hurting anyone, right? That's for sure...best BJ this side of the Mississippi (I have a certificate and everything)j/k. Best way to kill a lonely night, that's for sure. And I played it to the hilt. I acted just like a guy when it came to sex. My prerequisites were good hair and a nice ass. Pouty lips never hurt. Then again, my prerequisites were very flexible depending upon my mood, or my available selection at any particular time.

Here's some wierd thing that I had to think about. That Elvis dude that I had the fling with...the night I met him, I was in some neighborhood bar with two girlfriends. The kind of place where the picken's were real slim, and he stood out like a beacon signaling to me as soon as I hit the door. I sat down in a booth behind him so I could check out his ass, and be close enough to have an excuse to stand next to him to get a drink. So after he does a total 180 and checks me out a couple of times, I went up to the bar and stood right next to him to get a drink. He introduced himself, his friend, told me he loved my hair, played with it a little, and asked me if I wanted to play the bowling arcade game. I said yes, of course, and within about five minutes....my friend looks across the bar, and says to my other friend, "who is that slut over there making out with that guy?" "Oh my God, it's Lori." So anyway, after trying to pry him off of me for about an hour or so, just because he wasn't so modest, ya know, we had to leave. I knew right then and there that this guy was not interested in my phone number, he couldn't have cared less about a relationship, the thought probably abhored him. He was a college guy who's main priorities were drinking beer and getting laid. And I wasn't gonna pass that up cause honey, he was fine. So, I tell my friends that I'm going to be leaving, and where I'm going, and they looked at me all shocked and one of them said, "well damn Lori, don't you at least want to go out to dinner with the guy first?" Why the hell did my friend say that? I didn't want to eat with this guy ok? I mean, it's not like I wouldn't WANT to eat with him ever, but isn't that totally irrelevant to the sex? That kind of shit out of people warps my head. But really, you have to draw the line somewhere, and that's what we're talking about. You say the line doesn't exist. Some say the line is crossed if someone gets hurt. Some say it's the size of their checkbook. Some say 2 dates, 3 dates, 4 dates, it depends on how many drinks maybe? I say that the line is marriage, and that it is for a reason. Ok, my fingers are tired. God bless you! ;)

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

ilgwamh

12-16-99, 02:05 AM

http://porno-free.net/

Jesus is Lord!

Searcher

12-16-99, 02:09 AM

Lori,

People take their animosity towards other Christians out on me and it frustrates me, because I'm a nice person, and I don't deserve to be judged by anyone other than God. I don't judge others; I can't. And don't ever mistake what I'm doing out here as judgement.

Lori, do I have to remind you AGAIN of how you've judged me on this board? Quite inaccurate in your judgments, I might add. For one thing, you immediately judged me to be a "dude", along with various unflattering adjectives that do not fit me at all (if memory serves me correctly, "loopy" and "homophobic" were among them). And, by the way, I don't know how many times I need to tell you I'm a woman - W-O-M-A-N!

You do judge people, Lori - quite often, as a matter of fact. You've done it to Tab, earlier in this thread, if I'm not mistaken. It's extremely annoying and hardly the kind of behavior I would expect from a "nice person", in case that never occured to you. Why are you surprised at the inevitable backlash?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

truestory

12-16-99, 04:15 AM

Hello Everyone,

To reiterate ONE thing that Searcher said (I hope you don't mind, Searcher):

Just because someone doesn't share your perceptions doesn't give you the right to badger and ridicule them.

O.K., now... Searcher, Lori, SkyeBlue, Tab', truestory, et al....

Let's ALL say that a hundred times before we post anything else from now on.

Love,

Mom :)

PS - About the "Mom" thing... I'm poking fun at myself, not at you!

[

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 16, 1999).]

Searcher

12-16-99, 09:54 AM

Mom - Lori started it!! :P

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Lori

12-16-99, 10:12 AM

Well thanks guys, I see that you missed my entire point again. It took me a long time to post all that, and apparently it was futile. Great. I'll keep that in mind the next time I have some spare time. Here's a clue, when I say judging, I didn't mean that I didn't ever make mistakes, or get the wrong impression about something someone says. What I'm saying is that while I try not to do that, I'm not passing judgment. I could try to describe you or tell you the impression that I get from what you say, but whatever impression I may come up with, all I'm saying is that I'M NOT ANY BETTER THAN YOU ARE. And if one person dares to hop on here, and argue that I say I'm better than others all the time, then it's war! I have to defend that shit all the time, and why? Because I'm a Christian, that's why. But it damn well sure isn't because I ever have said that. And yes, why don't you go looking through every string I've ever written. Good luck, you won't find it. Why? Because I don't think it, so why should I say it? So you guys are just fine with making all kinds of assumptions about me because I'm a Christian, but God help me if I was to do the same thing to you. I mean, if someone hops on here and spews a bunch of stuff that seems homophobic, then I would say "gee, you seem homophobic", but I sure as hell wouldn't say, "I'm better than you are because you're homophobic." Do you see what I'm saying? I try not to read too much into what people say and make generalizations, but geez, if I do then it's certainly not because I think I know everything. I couldn't be more honest with you people. I've damn near spilled my guts on this forum so let me ask you, how, how in the flippin' world could you possibly read some of the stuff I've written about myself and think that I think I'm better than anyone? Now just stop it ok? Because I'm no better, and because of that I'm in no position to judge. OBVIOUSLY. And OF COURSE, that's exactly what it says in the Bible.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 16, 1999).]

truestory

12-16-99, 10:52 AM

Good Morning, Lori,

It probably won't mean much, coming from me, however, I want to say that I DO understand where you are coming from.

Lori

12-16-99, 01:14 PM

Well thank God someone does. Listen I know that I have a sharp tongue. Believe me, I pay for it all the time. But I'm not mean-spirited, and I don't think that I have a sharper tongue than a lot of other people out here, I just have to take a lot more shit about it than anyone else does because I'm a Christian.

So I said someone was obtuse. I get my ass chewed. I can only come to one of two conclusions:
1 - there is some real thin skin out here, or
2 - I am held to standards that are different from others out here because I'm a Christian.

I think that it's the latter.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

tablariddim

12-16-99, 03:13 PM

Lori,
SkyeBlue and Searcher answered for me as well in the main part in their last posts.
But I have to iform you that I'm not a racist as you seem to imply, anything but in fact. And I know that you're referring to a previous post where I used the 'n' word. That word was used within a certain context simply for dynamic effect and if anything the phrase is obviously ironical in its intent, not racist.
You need to talk about your childhood because it strikes me that you were deprived of love or even abused and you carry so much guilt on your shoulders that you see your own dark side in everybody else's postings. "take the log out of your own eye..etc etc"

Another thing Lori, I would have you know that I have been very happily married in a monogamous relationship for 27 years and have never ever tasted the flesh of another person apart from my wife, whom I love very dearly.

To me,your preoccupation with alien abductions and devious beings of light is bordering on the ridiculous and yet you perceive wrongly (again) that I'm also into that s**t. I would never dismiss anything out of hand but I'm certainly not entirely convinced by any of the et/alien/conspiracy/abduction stories.

You on the other hand, are entirely lost in a fantasy, from alien conspiracies to ancient gods of mythology to a Christian god who is proud of your swearing.
You are desperately throwing anchors and trying to steady your volatile urges.Your insatiable desire to be loved and your feisty personality drove you into a dark place but your spirit was awakened and searched for the light, you now think you've found it.
I think you've only taken the first step, now before continuing, walk around in a small circle first, then sit down and think about what you've learnt. And you know, find out which guard is telling the truth before proceeding through the gate.

Lastly and most importantly, learn to read other peoples posts slowly and carefully and then think about what they're saying with an open mind.
We are all learners and we are all teachers. Do not believe anybody who tells you otherwise.

I love you Lori

Lori

12-16-99, 03:41 PM

Well, I love you too Tab, but I haven't been abused, I haven't been denied love any more than anyone else has, and I'm not in a fantasy world. That's my whole point. You don't have to agree with me about my beliefs about anything, but just because you don't, doesn't mean I'm delusional. Lighten up already. What do you want me to say exactly? Why don't you tell me what to say, and then I'll say it, but then what would you do? I'm sorry, but some things that you have said have totally given me the creeps. That's all I'm saying. Do you really think that I REALLY believe that you're evil incarnate????? That you're Satan????? Give me a break already, I was just kidding.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

666

12-17-99, 01:52 AM

Lori,

So I said someone was obtuse. I get my ass chewed. I can only come to one of two conclusions:
1 - there is some real thin skin out here, or
2 - I am held to standards that are different from others out here because I'm a Christian.

There is a third you left out. Could your past actions have caused this? When some one makes a mistake, be it accidently use of to harsh of words or somthing eles it is one thing. When you acknowlege these mistakes but continue to repeat them the only thing any one can deduce is that you are intentional doing thses things and they are not mistakes. I know from my point of view when I see some one acknowlege but continue to repeat "mistakes" it is much harder for me to forgive then if they had made vaild atempts at corective action.

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 16, 1999).]

truestory

12-17-99, 03:13 AM

666,

I hope you don't mind my asking...

Do you see this to be SIMILAR TO a situation where the parent who beats their child, sees the child lying battered and bloodied on the floor, the child crying out in pain, perhaps, and the parent saying, "I didn't mean to hurt you, but, you KNOW how I am!!! It doesn't mean I don't love you! If you didn't WANT me to hit you, then why did you DO those things when you KNEW how I would react?! Why do you DO those things?! To MAKE me hit you???!!! "MY" father hit me A LOT harder than I've ever hit you!!! So??? What??? Are you a "wimp" or something? I know I go off on you sometimes and YOU KNOW IT TOO... that's JUST THE WAY I AM and YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE ME!!! Soooooooo, if you don't want me to do it anymore, then don't MAKE me do it anymore!"

????????????????????????????

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 16, 1999).]

Lori

12-17-99, 10:33 AM

Ok, just so I have this straight....I called someone obtuse, which is not a cuss word, like bitch for example, and I was trying to nicely say that she was talking in circles, and now I'm being compared to a child abuser. What planet am I on? See, I didn't think that there was anything wrong with me saying that she was being obtuse. I'm not being mean, I'm not judging. You guys are worrying me quite a bit. You're so far off base, I can't even believe it you know? Can we just talk about sex already? I mean I spent a while putting down those thoughts, and my intentions were to discuss sex, not my vurnacular AGAIN. And TS, you know we all have things that we need to work on in life. Tab seems to think that my God is proud of cussing. It's ridiculous stuff like this that makes me just want to give up. But I don't. I've tried very very hard to change my tone. Not that it matters to anyone apparently.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

truestory

12-17-99, 11:26 AM

Lori,

I agree! I'd much rather talk about sex!!! :)

Also, I HAVE noticed how very much your "tone" has improved, in my humble opinion, and I, for one, appreciate it! You are making a greaaat effort and, let's face it, you didn't have to do that... there is noone who forced you to try to "improve" - You made a conscious effort to grow as a person and that's GREAT! "Change" for the better is always a wonderful thing. Thank you very much!

Sorry, if it seems like it to you... YOU are not being compared to a child abuser. The similarity in the response to peoples objections in the form of rationalization is what I was talking with 666 about. What happens, and I've seen it many times, is that people try to rationalize their behavior which hurts other people in similar ways. People who have been abused at any age (either physically or emotionally), especially, CAN BE very sensitive to "name-calling" and "put-downs" even if the "intent" was to poke a little fun and even if the poster really has a big, friendly smile on their face which noone on the receiving end can see. Name-calling and put-downs CAN BE very painful for someone who has experienced abuse and, when they object (even if it was done in "fun") and the name-caller rationalizes rather than respects their objection, they pick up on such rationalizations and very easily identify it with past experiences because they have heard it so many times before during their lifetime. Given what 666 has so openly shared with us about his childhood (thank you) and given what he talked about in his post above, I was simply ASKING him if that is what HE saw, a similarity in the "rationalization" of the behavior.

I TRULY hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 17, 1999).]

tablariddim

12-17-99, 02:10 PM

Lori'

your quote:
-. Because some "church people", some Christians, think that they are holier than thou, better than you, and perfect themselves, and rationalize sin even while preaching. They're all fluffy, you know, with their "God bless you's", and oh no, they would never cuss!
I'M NOT THAT PERSON!!!!-

Your god must have heard you cuss a thousand times, he must be real proud of you. Otherwise, why do it? It's because you are so proud of yourself aren't you?
Your intelligence, your sense of humour, your sexuality, your experiences.

No, you could never be fluffy it wouldn't suit the queen b***h image you naturally project and cultivate.

Lori

12-17-99, 02:30 PM

TS,

Thank you for explaining that, and I do understand what you mean, and I agree, and I do the same thing too regarding some things. I appreciate your kind words.

Tab,

The nicest way I can say this is that you are truly amazing. Amazingly what is where I'll just put a lid on it. Thanks though for demonstrating what I meant when I jokingly called you evil incarnate. Hey, it's either evil or stupidity. You tell me? Have a nice day.

Everyone,

Now I'd really like to hear someone try to answer the question I posed in my last long post. Why did my girlfriend seem so appalled that I would have sex with a guy that I knew for maybe an hour or so, but thought that if I had dinner with him once or twice, that it would somehow be ok to have sex with him then?

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 17, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 17, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 17, 1999).]

666

12-18-99, 05:54 AM

Truestory,

No I don't mind. Yes there is a similarity in how I precive this. Just underlying factors.

Lori,

I just thought that it might be an addtional cause. Sometimes people can't see that other people have changed. I could go more, but I am going to answer your question.

Quite simply I don't understand why your girlfriend couldn't understand it. I realy don't see the diference between the two situations. In both cases You wouldn't realy know who the person is. I belive that if you don't know the person well enough do not have sex with them. I have a great story of a friend who would only sleep with over weight women becuase he belived they would be easier to get into bed. Well one morning he woke up with a women stradling him with a ball-peen hammer in one hand and told him how nice it was of him to trust her so much and sleep so deeply. Moral of the story... He got what he deserved, no she didn't hit him just scared the hell out of him and don't just sleep around or you might end up stairing down a ball-peen hammer!

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 18, 1999).]

Lori

12-18-99, 11:45 AM

666, Oh my! That reminded me of that book "Looking for Mr Goodbar". Actually I'm surprised at how I beat out the statistical probability of ending up in pieces on a riverbank myself. At this point, I can't help but think it was Grandma praying for me. I agree with your position. That's why this stuff warps my head so bad, or it did anyway. But in reality, that's the way A LOT of people act. Where's the line? One dinner, two dinners, three dinners, four? It's like a riddle....how many dinners does it take before you can sleep with someone guilt-free? Or something like that. It may be a nice gift? A common interest found? You may feel sorry for the guy? Maybe you're feeling a little extra-lonely? Maybe you've had a few drinks? Maybe he's got a big wallet? Or maybe you married the guy? Whoa, what? Married? When I looked at how people move that line all over the place at a whim, I decided that there either is no God, and no line, or there is a God, and the line is where He draws it. I think it's obvious that I concluded that there is a God, and the line is where He draws it.

You know, (well you wouldn't but) that guy was just awful in bed. Poor thing just sucked big time. I was disappointed yes, but I realized that to one degree or another, I would have been disappointed regardless. Even though he sucked, I went back several times for more. I guess I thought I'd give it another shot, since he was sooooooo cute. But here's the honesty part....I wasn't really with him for good sex. I was really with him because I wanted to be close to a man. I was lonely, and I just wanted the attention, and the intimacy, even though I knew that the situation was the exact opposite of that. He considered me to be a walking talking blow up doll see. As many men do. There was no intimacy, no feelings, no love, no trust, and THAT'S what I really wanted. So guess what I did? I settled for the next best thing and ended up feeling empty and more alone than before. I see God all over the place! Praise Jesus!

So now I'm confused. Before you said that a little lustful sex is a good thing, but now you say you shouldn't sleep around. So where is your line, and how did you decide where to draw it?

TS, Amen sista!

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 18, 1999).]