Now I may seem like something of a broken record on this topic, but someone on here was recently bragging about his association with "moderate" groups like the Muslim Council of Britain and the Muslim Public Affairs Council of the United Kingdom. Based on some of the writings and doings of individuals of both those groups, I've felt a little tentative unease about their motivations. Of course, I was told that I was an eeeeevil islamophobe, and that their ways were pure and honourable.

And then this comes out. Precisely what level of back-bending-over-backwards would be sufficient for the MCB to feel they fit in British society. How else might we change to accomodate their wishes?


]MUSLIMS: 'BAN' UN-ISLAMIC SCHOOLS
21/02/07
By Gabriel Milland

DEMANDS for a ban on “un-Islamic” activities in schools will be set out by the Muslim Council of Britain today.

Targets include playground games, swimming lessons, school plays, parents’ evenings and even vaccinations.

And here I thought the refusal of vaccinations was confined to narrow stretches where education suffers, such as Nigeria, Ghana, the Sudan, and Pakistan. See, the ummah is such a variable, divergent, varied, variable world. There are all kinds of different opinions there. (Ghost? Sam? Isn't that so?) What are the odds that the same idiocy would be promoted both in the backwaters of Pakistan, and the educated nation of Britain? And yet, there it is. But what a great idea, creating great reservoirs of polio- and German measles-susceptible children! And, when polio strikes again, those verysame children can end up with their very own iron lung! Excellent. Yet, not to worry: the entire thing could then be blamed on Britain and the filthy kufr. See, it was their filth, or their disbelief that caused the illness! Of course. How simple it all would be. Or maybe...maybe it could be blamed on a secret plot! Of course! The evil kufr tricked us into not vaccinating, and then secretly put polio in our water supply! It's just like when they stole Palestinians' kids' eyes!

I would laugh, if I didn't think exactly that would be argued in some quarters. One must first protect the stupid, and then protect ourselves from the verysame stupid when their stupidity reaps its harvest. Excellent.


And the calls for all children to be taught in Taliban-style conditions will be launched with the help of a senior Government education adviser.

Professor Tim Brighouse, chief adviser to London schools, was due to attend the event at the capital’s biggest mosque.

His presence there was seen as “deeply worrying”, and a sign that the report was backed by the Government.

Tory MP Greg Hands said: “The MCB needs to realise it has to move closer to the rest of the community, not away from it.

“The presence of Tim Brighouse implies Government back*ing of this report. This is very worrying.”

Terry Sanderson of the National Secular Society said the report was a “recipe for disaster”.

He added: “Schools with even just a handful of Muslim kids will find they have to follow these guidelines because there aren’t the staff to have one set of classes for Muslims and another for the rest.

“The MCB shouldn’t try to force its religious agenda on children who may not want it. The Government needs to send the MCB packing. Schools should be about teaching, not preaching.”

Well put.


The report, Towards Greater Understanding – Meeting The Needs of Muslim Pupils In State Schools, says all schools should bring in effective bans for all pupils on “un-Islamic activities” like dance classes.

It also wants to limit certain activities during Ramadan. They include science lessons dealing with sex, parents’ evenings, exams and immunisation programmes.

Again: excellent. Why no parent's evenings? Because it would impede the fast-breaing that goes on after nightfall? Oh, by all means: let's not get anything in the way of stuffing our faces, after all.


The holy month – when eating and drinking is not allowed in daylight hours – should also see a ban on swimming lessons in case pupils swallow water in the pool.

The phrase "fucking kidding me" springs immediately to mind. Is this Afghanistan? Ah - but silly me. Islamic jurisprudence, from which this idiocy springs, is different anywhere. No rules on accidental water-swallowing or which-hand-arse-wiping here. Right.


When swimming is allowed, boys should wear clothing covering their bodies “from the navel to the neck”, even during single-sex pool sessions, while girls must be covered up completely at all times, apart from the face and hands.

What, only the navel to the neck? :eek: j/k


The MCB adds that schools should ensure contact sports, including football and basketball, “are always in single-gender groups”.

Even school trips are targeted in the report, which wants them all to be made single-sex “to encourage greater participation from Muslim pupils”.

It wants Arabic language classes for Muslim pupils, and says the Koran should be recited in music classes. And all schools should ensure they have prayer rooms with washing facilities attached, it says.

In art classes, Muslim children should not be allowed to draw people, as this is forbidden under some interpretations of Islamic law.

Well, doesn't the MCB recognize the huge breadth of islamic jurisprudence across the planet? Not every muslim is banned from drawing people, you know. Except of course that bans always go to the lower common denominator: that which one is not allowed to do.


And while the MCB insists that all British children should learn about Islam, it wants Muslims to have the right to withdraw their children from RE lessons dealing with Christianity and other faiths.

Oooh! Ecumenicality. Wonderful.


The MCB says special treatment and opt-outs are necessary because otherwise Muslim pupils will feel excluded from school activities and lessons.

So...the way to ensure greater participation...is to opt out.

All rightie.

There's hope:


But other Muslim groups criticised the report. Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui of the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain said: “There has been no discussion on these issues in the Muslim community.”

And the Sufi Muslim Council – which claims to represent far more British Muslims than the MCB – said the report misunderstood Ramadan.

It added: “This is not what Islam or Ramadan is about. Ramadan is about training yourself while carrying on with everyday life.”

A better notion, for sure.


The Department for Edu*cation tried to distance itself from the report last night, and insisted Professor Brighouse was attending the launch only in a “personal capacity”.

A spokesman said it would read the report “with interest”.

The MCB did not comment.

It came as Britain's first Muslim peer called for women to stop wearing veils, claiming that they represent “a barrier to integration”.

Reigniting the debate over the face veil, or niqab, Lord Ahmed of Rotherham said there was no religious reason why Muslim women should wear them – and claimed that veils now cause society more harm than good.

The peer, who has urged the authorities to clamp down on preachers of hate, spoke during a debate held in the heart of the Arab world.

Encouraging. We shall have to see how this goes, but: encouraging.


He told a mainly Muslim audience in Doha, Qatar, that he does not want a legal ban on the veil being worn in public – as many other nations are introducing, including Muslim Turkey and Egypt.

But he said: “The face veil is a barrier to integration in the West. The veil is now a mark of separation, segregation and defiance against mainstream British culture.

“There’s nothing in the Koran to say that wearing a niqab is desirable, let alone compulsory. It’s purely cultural. It’s an identity thing which has been misinterpreted.

“They were supposed to be worn so that women wouldn’t be harassed. But women, and communities as a whole, are now being harassed because they are wearing them."

But the MCB doesn't back down. Led by whom? Well, "Hack-and-Slash" Inayat, of course.


The Muslim Council of Britain’s assistant secretary
general, Inayat Bunglawala, said yesterday: “Peoples’ attitudes are responsible for harming integration, not veils.

“And wearing them is very much a matter for individual Muslim women.”

http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=1264

Is opining that someone's throat should be slit a personal matter too, Inny?

Before I'm attacked for attacking muslims themselves, please explain: do individual muslims believe in this, or is this the work of the MCB and the classical political paranoia of islam itself? Am I allowed to criticize?

Best

Geoff

Dear Geoff,

thank you for starting the above thread.

Do you have a link to the whole report.

Obviously i dont know much on the MCB, but if what you report is true then the MCB are truely bonkers

you (as a muslim)can participate in all aspects of school life without compromise and if you dont want to participate than that is your choice, you should not force this on to the non muslims.

Thank you for reporting the encouraging stuff too.

I dont know what to say apart from i hope this gets brushed under the carpet pretty quickly.

I would also imagine that the PC brigade may have had some inout dont you?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Take it ez
zak

I wouldn't doubt they did. I object to the notion that it is the locals who should change, where their systems are not discriminatory. I'll see if I can't find the whole report.

Best and peace,

Geoff

Here is the report Zak, link (http://www.mcb.org.uk/downloads/Schoolinfoguidance.pdf)

Nothing but scaremongering. This is the first I have heard of such proposals, as a Muslim I don’t agree with any of them.

From the article:


The MCB claims to be the voice of Britain’s 1.5million Muslims and was heavily courted by politicians including Tony Blair following the September 11 attacks. Its former secretary-general Iqbal Sacranie was awarded a knighthood in 2005.

But other Muslim groups criticised the report. Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui of the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain said: “There has been no discussion on these issues in the Muslim community.”

And the Sufi Muslim Council – which claims to represent far more British Muslims than the MCB – said the report misunderstood Ramadan.

It added: “This is not what Islam or Ramadan is about. Ramadan is about training yourself while carrying on with everyday life.”


And here I thought the refusal of vaccinations was confined to narrow stretches where education suffers, such as Nigeria, Ghana, the Sudan, and Pakistan. See, the ummah is such a variable, divergent, varied, variable world. There are all kinds of different opinions there. (Ghost? Sam? Isn't that so?)


Well, doesn't the MCB recognize the huge breadth of islamic jurisprudence across the planet? Not every muslim is banned from drawing people, you know.

You're getting there! lol

Only an idiot would assume these proposals are supported by all the Muslims (variable, varied, diverse) in the UK.

Only an idiot would assume these proposals are supported by all the Muslims (variable, varied, diverse) in the UK.

As you well know, it only takes a few of those radical, extremist Muslims to make a helluva lot of trouble for the world! What good Muslims should do is to actively fight such radical Muslims in the same way as others do ...then perhaps people would see Muslims in a different perspective.

But, alas, so many Muslims refuse to condemn the radical elements of Islam .....so we have to assume that it means they support them!!

"Revenge is mine, sayeth the Muslims of the world."

Baron Max

Why don't they start Islamic schools?

After all there are Jewish schools which follow their religious teachings and which are popular with Muslim parents

http://www.drudge.com/news/90615/jewish-schools-majority-muslims


if they want an Islamic school, I'm sure they can start one.

This is exactly the kind of crap that is always started by small groups of cranks who pretend to know what the religion is all about. It seemed to work when the "fundamentalist" Christians got the upper hand for a while in America, but I think that's falling apart already.

Their recentley was a small debat of changing all the school meat with hallal slaughtered meat in antwerp (a mayor city in Belgium). People simply said no. I have no opinion on Islam or any other religion not even my own. But those folks seem to increasenly make fools of themself.

Why don't they start Islamic schools?

After all there are Jewish schools which follow their religious teachings and which are popular with Muslim parents

http://www.drudge.com/news/90615/jewish-schools-majority-muslims


if they want an Islamic school, I'm sure they can start one.

Exactly if they want religious education then they should go to a religious school, don't impose religion on the public sector. I went to catholic school and survived more or less intact (lost the christianity bit along the way though;) )

Their recentley was a small debat of changing all the school meat with hallal slaughtered meat in antwerp (a mayor city in Belgium). People simply said no. I have no opinion on Islam or any other religion not even my own. But those folks seem to increasenly make fools of themself.

I agree. If they want halaal meat, they should pack lunches for their kids.

Why don't they start Islamic schools?

Great idea! Let's continue to segregate the population further, building up walls of ignorance and intolerance.

I would wonder though, when it comes to teaching astronomy, will they concur on how the moon was split and put back together?

Nothing but scaremongering. This is the first I have heard of such proposals, as a Muslim I don’t agree with any of them.

Hey! Now you're getting it! Non-muslims don't like them either; they also don't like it when every single islamic organization seems predestined to revert to Wahhabism. Or, more accurately, to conservative/political islam.


Only an idiot would assume these proposals are supported by all the Muslims (variable, varied, diverse) in the UK.

Yeah - darn shame that all this variation never translates into tolerance of the infidel in political islam. Infidelophobia or kufrphobia, the term would be.

Best

Geoff

Why don't they start Islamic schools?

After all there are Jewish schools which follow their religious teachings and which are popular with Muslim parents

http://www.drudge.com/news/90615/jewish-schools-majority-muslims


if they want an Islamic school, I'm sure they can start one.

Unfortunately the record for islamic schools in the UK is significantly less than 100%, with one having been shut down for teaching islamic supremacism, and another not shut down for the same thing. I was amazed when they refused to take the offending books out. So islamic schools are clearly not the answer either.

Geoff

Why don't they start Islamic schools?

Unfortunately the record for islamic schools in the UK is significantly less than 100%, with one having been shut down for teaching islamic supremacism, and another not shut down for the same thing. I was amazed when they refused to take the offending books out. So islamic schools are clearly not the answer either, since they promote supremacism.

Geoff

Why don't they start Islamic schools?

After all there are Jewish schools which follow their religious teachings and which are popular with Muslim parents

http://www.drudge.com/news/90615/jewish-schools-majority-muslims


if they want an Islamic school, I'm sure they can start one.Why don't they just simply secularize the education system so that everyone receives the same schooling? That's the most fair.
It'd also be nice if they could require a religous history class as well.

Why don't they just simply secularize the education system so that everyone receives the same schooling? That's the most fair.
It'd also be nice if they could require a religous history class as well.

Why all the interest in sameness?

We have religious schools catering to different religions in India and anyone who wants to sends their children there.

Diversity is important to maintain cultural versatility.

Sam, do you wish that India would become an Islamic theocracy?

Sam, do you wish that India would become an Islamic theocracy?

It already is. We have a Muslim President.:p

Sam says India is an Islamic Theocracy!!!!!

Sam says India is an Islamic Theocracy!!!!!

You are a very silly fellow.:)

Sam, I asked you if you wished India would become an Islamic theocracy, and you said it already is, so who's silly?

Sam, I asked you if you wished India would become an Islamic theocracy, and you said it already is, so who's silly?

Ask a silly question...;)

What's silly about that question? Nothing, so Sam, once again, you win the Diversion Award, you the champ.

What's silly about that question? Nothing, so Sam, once again, you win the Diversion Award, you the champ.

I like India the way it is. No need to fix what ain't broke.:)

Now stop trolling.

Sam, I asked you if you wished India would become an Islamic theocracy, and you said it already is, so who's silly?

Perhaps Sam has some inside track about upcoming Muslim plans for India? I mean, there's lots of Muslim unrest in India right now, perhaps Sam knows things from an inside track?

I've already mentioned that I think she/he is a propagandist, so perhaps I wasn't so far off the mark, huh? And not perhaps, maybe, just maybe, Sam is involved in something that she/he don't want us to know about?

"Revenge is mine, sayeth the Muslims of the world."

Baron Max

It already is. We have a Muslim President.:pNote the emoticon: :p :p
There it is in duplicate. Did you see it this time?
Sam, I asked you if you wished India would become an Islamic theocracy, and you said it already is, so who's silly?Ice, you are the silly one. In fact you're so silly that the word "doofus" comes to mind. Did you not see the emoticon in Sam's posting? Surely you spend enough time on the internet to know what it means? Do they not teach "sarcasm" in the schools wherever you live? If not, you should come to America and learn about it. It's everywhere.

Give us a break, doofus.

Sam is obviously deluded by wishful thinking that India is an Islamic theocracy.

I like India the way it is. No need to fix what ain't broke.

Sure, Sam ....for rich, influencial people, I'm sure that India is a wonderful place to live. Big mansions, lots of servants, big cars, lots to eat, ......

But don't you think India has a long, long ways to go to be something that don't need fixin'???? Even those starving people in Calcutta? Or those who don't even have running water and sewers and electricity?

C'mon, Sam, nationalism is a great thing, but...... perhaps you carry it a bit too far with that comment?

Baron Max

Nice vocabulary "genius" Frag, did you have to look up doofus for the spelling, or did you just sound it out?

Hey Frag, can somebody put one of those stupid faces after any statement to make it "sarcasm?"

Why all the interest in sameness?

We have religious schools catering to different religions in India and anyone who wants to sends their children there.

Diversity is important to maintain cultural versatility.

If diversity is so important to muslims, then why have the Hindu and Buddhist populations in Kashmir (and Afghanistan and Pakistan) decreased drastically over the last hundred years as muslims have encroached further and further on non-muslims? The same thing is happening in Bangladesh and southern Thailand.

I personally think all religions are bunk, but Islam seems to be the most intolerant to "diversity" to me (i.e. muslim countries must adopt Arabic culture/architecture/language).

Why all the interest in sameness?

We have religious schools catering to different religions in India and anyone who wants to sends their children there.

Diversity is important to maintain cultural versatility.In education I think we should have a standard that all schools must meet. Children will eventually reach an age were they can choose which direction their studies will develop, but, on the way there I think we can agree that all children should be required to learn to read and learn maths! I'd begin by adding religous history to that list.

So I suppose what I am saying is that if it were up to me, some basic information would be required to be taught to all children regardless of personal religous belief.

Don't you agree?

I think that is a fabulous idea to teach religious history.

In education I think we should have a standard that all schools must meet. Children will eventually reach an age were they can choose which direction their studies will develop, but, on the way there I think we can agree that all children should be required to learn to read and learn maths! I'd begin by adding religous history to that list.

So I suppose what I am saying is that if it were up to me, some basic information would be required to be taught to all children regardless of personal religous belief.

Don't you agree?

How much similarity could you have?

I think the opportunity to provide different kinds of education should be available and parents should be presumed to know what is in the best interests of their children.

e.g. The Shantiniketan open air school by Rabindranath Tagore is an alternative form of schooling based on exposure to nature and generated by discussions in an informal atmosphere. The private schools with a limited teacher student ratio are another option. Schools in the English language or in regional languages are another option.

Whats wrong with a diverse group of people?

Who says that one method is better than another or all children are the same?

Sam would be for homeschooling, Christian conservatives love that.

Sam would be for homeschooling, Christian conservatives love that.

Actually I think travel is the best form of education, but I know of people who've been around the world and been as blind at the end of it as they were at the beginning.

e.g. The Shantiniketan open air school by Rabindranath Tagore is an alternative form of schooling based on exposure to nature and generated by discussions in an informal atmosphere. The private schools with a limited teacher student ratio are another option. Schools in the English language or in regional languages are another option.

Whats wrong with a diverse group of people?

Who says that one method is better than another or all children are the same?Yes that is fine. I am saying some classes must be prerequisite - such as math and learning to read the scientific method, evolution and IMHO a serious discussion on archaeological evidence-based religous history.

Other than that, yes it's fine to diversify as much as you'd like.
:)


That seems commonsenseical doesn't it???

Michael

PS: In AU there was an interesting study that found children that went to $$ private schools do no better at USYD when compared with public schools. Basically, at the level of Uni, it is more the persons own self drive and prowess that will make or break them - not their elementary training (provided they were given the basics).

Yes that is fine. I am saying some classes must be prerequisite - such as math and learning to read the scientific method, evolution and IMHO a serious discussion on archaeological evidence-based religous history.

Other than that, yes it's fine to diversify as much as you'd like.
:)


That seems commonsenseical doesn't it???

Michael

PS: In AU there was an interesting study that found children that went to $$ private schools do no better at USYD when compared with public schools. Basically, at the level of Uni, it is more the persons own self drive and prowess that will make or break them - not their elementary training (provided they were given the basics).


That's alright in a public school.

Private schools have the right to teach as they please, that is why they are private. If you don't like what they teach don't send your children there.


Though I'm against Schools teaching torture techniques, even if for democratic enlightenment.

Though I'm against Schools teaching torture techniques, even if for democratic enlightenment.:bugeye:

Where did that come from??

SM?
:p

I would require that even private schools teach some things.. .. .. math, reading, writing, archaeological evidence based-history with a bubbly-sparkling and refreshing twist of lemon-lime secularism :)

:bugeye:

Where did that come from??

SM?
:p

I would require that even private schools teach some things.. .. .. math, reading, writing, archaeological evidence based-history with a bubbly-sparkling and refreshing twist of lemon-lime secularism :)

I meant the School of Americas of course.

Secularism is not taught, it must be practised. And it is learned from experience and example. A lot of people who claim to be secular are such in word only. They actually discriminate against people of other religions due to their entrenched views on either the religious or on other religions. I've yet to meet a secular atheist on this forum (no, red is secular, I'll give him that).

I wouldn't doubt they did. I object to the notion that it is the locals who should change, where their systems are not discriminatory. I'll see if I can't find the whole report.

Best and peace,

Geoff

Dear ggeoff

thank you for your feedback

you are right the locals/majority should not have to fit in with the minority. This report should be binned with immediate affect.

Between the PC brigade and the extrmists we have to count ourselves lucky their is not more anger and hate and wars and stuff than their is.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

Here is the report Zak, link (http://www.mcb.org.uk/downloads/Schoolinfoguidance.pdf)

Thanks Sock

DEMANDS for a ban on “un-Islamic” activities in schools will be set out by the Muslim Council of Britain today.

Targets include playground games, swimming lessons, school plays, parents’ evenings and even vaccinations.

Give them nothing, and they deserve even less. They can always move back to Syria.

Why all the interest in sameness?

We have religious schools catering to different religions in India and anyone who wants to sends their children there.

Diversity is important to maintain cultural versatility.

"Versatility"?

To what end?


ver·sa·tile (vűrs-tl, -tl)
adj.
1. Capable of doing many things competently.
2. Having varied uses or serving many functions: "The most versatile of vegetables is the tomato" Craig Claiborne.
3. Variable or inconstant; changeable: a versatile temperament.
4. Biology Capable of moving freely in all directions, as the antenna of an insect, the toe of an owl, or the loosely attached anther of a flower.

What more is it that society would be expected to do, "competently", by the existence of such schools? Institute the sunnah? How would that help anything?

Geoff

"Versatility"?

To what end?

What more is it that society would be expected to do, "competently", by the existence of such schools? Institute the sunnah? How would that help anything?

Geoff

I think teaching about religion is important for those who wish to learn about it.

We have Jewish schools and Catholic schools so why not have Islamic schools too?

For the religion to grow and reform, you'd need people educated in it.

Islamic schools which don't show Israel on their maps? Is that a good thing Sam?

Oh, and Sam, you forgot about Protestant schools, an innocent omission on your part I'm sure.

IAC,

what all islamic schools.

I wonder how many maps you will see palestine on?
~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

Palestine is not a nation.

Palestine is not a nation.

Yes, cos its occupied!!!

Call it occupied if you like.

IAC

so its not occupied then??!!

I think that is a fabulous idea to teach religious history.

And learn of the atrocities many of those religions strangled mankind with? How many were murdered in the name of their gods?

Great idea!

so its not occupied then??!!

Palestine has never, ever, in all of human history been a soviergn nation. It was simply an area of land over yonder that was always, throughout history, been subject to ownership or control by others.

Why do you care about the Palestinians, Zak? I mean, why care about them any more than, say, you care about those people of India who are seeking independence from India? Or the Tibetans? Or the Sudanese? Or the ....those groups in central Africa who are constantly fighting and killing in the name of freedom and independence?

Why do you care so much about the fuckin' Palestinians???

Fuck Palestinians!

"Revenge is mine, sayeth the Muslims of the world."

Baron Max

And learn of the atrocities many of those religions strangled mankind with? How many were murdered in the name of their gods?


I don't know, but I think the acquisition of land has been the cause of most of the wars and death in the world. So should we do away with land ownership?

"Revenge is mine, sayeth the Muslims of the world."

Baron Max

Palestine has never, ever, in all of human history been a soviergn nation. It was simply an area of land over yonder that was always, throughout history, been subject to ownership or control by others.


yes of course silly me!!

That makes everything all fine and dandy then doesnt it??





Fuck Palestinians!


Baron Max
Excellent Maximus, BinLid and Alqueda would be most impressed with this attitude and rhetoric

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Take it ez
zak

I think teaching about religion is important for those who wish to learn about it.

We have Jewish schools and Catholic schools so why not have Islamic schools too?

For the religion to grow and reform, you'd need people educated in it.

I don't object to such education per se - I think we're on the same wavelength there - but I'd want the teacher to be well vetted, or else sat on by a three hundred ton gorilla.

I've said too much.

Geoff

Palestine has never, ever, in all of human history been a soviergn nation. It was simply an area of land over yonder that was always, throughout history, been subject to ownership or control by others.

So, does that make the Palestinians not a people then? The USA didn't use to be a sovereign nation when the British controlled it - does that mean that the revolution is null and void and we get it back now? You don't really have an argument.

So long as the Palestinians are a people, there is a potential country and a "right" for that people to control their homeland. I'm not saying I support the Palestinians as much as I disagree with Israel existing right fucking there instead of in Madagascar or something, but you are just speaking a load of shit as usual, Baron. Remember that the fledgling USA used to be just the same as Palestine is today, people without a country ruled over by foreigners.

I meant the School of Americas of course.

Secularism is not taught, it must be practised. And it is learned from experience and example. A lot of people who claim to be secular are such in word only. They actually discriminate against people of other religions due to their entrenched views on either the religious or on other religions. I've yet to meet a secular atheist on this forum (no, red is secular, I'll give him that).Fair enough :) I'd still like to see evidence based archeology taught in school :)

Israel was a nation, and is a nation there again, "Palestine" never has been.

How odd: A postage stamp from a place that "never existed" according to you, IAC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Palestine_stamp.jpg

British Mandate of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(mandate))


edit: Hey! why won't this image post? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Palestine_stamp.jpg

Well shucks, case closed.

Yep.

I meant the School of Americas of course.

Secularism is not taught, it must be practised. And it is learned from experience and example. A lot of people who claim to be secular are such in word only. They actually discriminate against people of other religions due to their entrenched views on either the religious or on other religions. I've yet to meet a secular atheist on this forum (no, red is secular, I'll give him that).

Personally, I only take up with that which I find a threat. Some people interpret it more widely; such is their own choice, of course.

How much similarity could you have?

I think the opportunity to provide different kinds of education should be available and parents should be presumed to know what is in the best interests of their children.

e.g. The Shantiniketan open air school by Rabindranath Tagore is an alternative form of schooling based on exposure to nature and generated by discussions in an informal atmosphere. The private schools with a limited teacher student ratio are another option. Schools in the English language or in regional languages are another option.

Whats wrong with a diverse group of people?

Who says that one method is better than another or all children are the same?


Here's a good example of what I was getting at in terms of "similarity". I don't mean similarity - but I think it's uterly wrong to neglect essential studies in order to brainwash religion into a childs head.

Case in point:
The Jewish ultra-Orthodox community (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6409257.stm)As a member of the Jewish ultra-Orthodox community, David wore a long black coat and a black hat covering his Jewish skullcap. He spent 10 hours a day studying the Torah, the Jewish holy book, and the Talmud, rabbinical discussions on Jewish law, ethics and customs.

His education was exclusively religious studies from the age of 13 onwards. He was bright, but had only a basic knowledge of maths and other subjects.


Do you see my point? This is horrific. Brainwash a child with voodoo and purposely restrict their learning of math? science? history?... ... ....


Michael

"It was like a wall blocking us from the rest of the world," he says. But one evening he attended a lecture that questioned the beliefs of the ultra-Orthodox community. "I wanted to prove that they were wrong," says David, explaining why he attended the lecture. "I was angry that they would say such things. But I left that night thinking they might be right." For the next four months, he wrestled with his beliefs - particularly with Talmudic law. He asked his rabbis a series of questions about biology and the natural world but they went unanswered. From this point on, his whole faith started quickly unravelling.


A good example what a little education can bring. Evidence based religious archeology along with logic and evolution should be taught to all children. Especially those in religious based schools! Not to do so is a form of child abuse.. .. ... ..

Wouldn't you agree?
Michael

"It was like a wall blocking us from the rest of the world," he says. But one evening he attended a lecture that questioned the beliefs of the ultra-Orthodox community. "I wanted to prove that they were wrong," says David, explaining why he attended the lecture. "I was angry that they would say such things. But I left that night thinking they might be right." For the next four months, he wrestled with his beliefs - particularly with Talmudic law. He asked his rabbis a series of questions about biology and the natural world but they went unanswered. From this point on, his whole faith started quickly unravelling.


A good example what a little education can bring. Evidence based religious archeology along with logic and evolution should be taught to all children. Especially those in religious based schools! Not to do so is a form of child abuse.. .. ... ..

Wouldn't you agree?
Michael

I've known girls/boys from both Catholic and Islamic schools.

I've also met morons from secular institutions.

I'd say it depends entirely on the school.

To give an example, a girl from a convent is a pilot who flies international aircraft.

A boy from a madrassa who is a computer engineer in a multinational corporation in Bombay.

A moron in my school (a secular institute) who is a complete idiot.

I've known girls/boys from both Catholic and Islamic schools.

I've also met morons from secular institutions.

I'd say it depends entirely on the school.

To give an example, a girl from a convent is a pilot who flies international aircraft.

A boy from a madrassa who is a computer engineer in a multinational corporation in Bombay.

A moron in my school (a secular institute) who is a complete idiot.Are you disagreeing or agreeing with me???

Yes, those are individual people. I once read about a serious hate driven neo-Nazi whose mother told him they were Jewish who then became an ulta-Orthodox Rabbi.

So what?



The point is that all schools should teach certain basic information to children. Surely you agree with this?
This list would include:

Math.
Science.
Literature.
History.

Don't you think all children should be taught these things?Or is that too much similarity? Perhaps some children can ONLY be taught religious dogma and that's fine.

So - what says you?
:)
Michael

Are you disagreeing or agreeing with me???

Yes, those are individual people. I once read about a serious hate driven neo-Nazi whose mother told him they were Jewish who then became an ulta-Orthodox Rabbi.

So what?



The point is that all schools should teach certain basic information to children. Surely you agree with this?
This list would include:

Math.
Science.
Literature.
History.

Don't you think all children should be taught these things?Or is that too much similarity? Perhaps some children can ONLY be taught religious dogma and that's fine.

So - what says you?
:)
Michael


I think, if I were a parent, I would hate to have someone else make my decisions for me.

I think, if I were a parent, I would hate to have someone else make my decisions for me.Sam, there are all sorts of laws that cover parent child interaction. For example, you can not beat your child bloody to make a point. You can not starve your child to make them skinny. You can not lock your child away in a cage after they return home. You can not sexual exploit your child. You can sell your child. You can psychologically harm your child.

All up you can not abuse your child.

So? Is that making you feel uncomfortable? Knowing that someone else (the public) has made a decision on how you may or may not treat your child?

probably not.


So? Again, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

Michael

PS: It's OK to agree once in awhile ;)

Sam, there are all sorts of laws that cover parent child interaction. For example, you can not beat your child bloody to make a point. You can not starve your child to make them skinny. You can not lock your child away in a cage after they return home. You can not sexual exploit your child. You can sell your child. You can psychologically harm your child.

All up you can not abuse your child.

So? Is that making you feel uncomfortable? Knowing that someone else (the public) has made a decision on how you may or may not treat your child?

probably not.


So? Again, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

Michael

PS: It's OK to agree once in awhile ;)

See I'm not sure I agree. What if I felt that from childhood my child was only interested in dancing or art?

I know of traditional schools in India where children are enrolled because they show an aptitude and enthusiasm for dance and many parents may not be able to afford an education over and above a gurukul.

So is it wrong for a parent to select such a school?

Here is an example:

http://www.nrityagram.org/soul/gurukul/gurukul.htm

See I'm not sure I agree. What if I felt that from childhood my child was only interested in dancing or art?

I know of traditional schools in India where children are enrolled because they show an aptitude and enthusiasm for dance and many parents may not be able to afford an education over and above a gurukul.

So is it wrong for a parent to select such a school?

Here is an example:

http://www.nrityagram.org/soul/gurukul/gurukul.htmIt's OK for a child to have a "focus" but that same child should learn to read and do maths right? While retaining a focus they should be exposed to other subject matter as well.

Are we agreeing yet?!?

:worship:

please... ... ... :)

It's OK for a child to have a "focus" but that same child should learn to read and do maths right? While retaining a focus they should be exposed to other subject matter as well.

Are we agreeing yet?!?

:worship:

please... ... ... :)

I'm sure they teach math at these schools though probably not the way it would be taught in other schools.

I don't have enough information to make a decision.:shrug:

Sam,

So then we are in agreement? Not about the schools but that there is some information and studies that all children should be exposed to regardless of institution?

Michael

Sam,

So then we are in agreement? Not about the schools but that there is some information and studies that all children should be exposed to regardless of institution?

Michael

You're almost as stubborn as I am.:p

I guess it helps to learn to read rite and 'rithmetic.

:rolleyes:

Seeeeee.... that wasn't so hard after all now was it
;)

Michael II