Stephen Hawking said there is a probability that 10^500 types of universes could exist out of big bang.
All with different set of laws of physics.
If this is true, Miracle is possible, miracle is relative to our laws of physics in this universe, different laws of physics which appear strange to us mean miracles.

therefore, the miracles in bible is possible,
God which comes from another realm of Existence could perform miracles in this world.

How does a seperate universe with a seperate set of physical laws equate to a miracle in our universe or the existence of a 'God'? Your conclusion makes absolutely no sense.

This thread also belongs in the religion sub-forum... not physics.

Stephen Hawking said there is a probability that 10^500 types of universes could exist out of big bang.
All with different set of laws of physics.
If this is true, Miracle is possible, miracle is relative to our laws of physics in this universe, different laws of physics which appear strange to us mean miracles.

therefore, the miracles in bible is possible,
God which comes from another realm of Existence could perform miracles in this world.



since our physics are bound to Big Bang and we are not certain, or we cannot talk before Big Ban , therefore our knowledge is bound our present modeled frame , so outside of our frame many things are possible., and are miracles to us.

By the same reasoning, Mary Poppins and Tinker Bell are also possible.

A miracle is a violation of natural laws, so Hawking is not implying that miracles are possible.

A miracle is a violation of natural laws, so Hawking is not implying that miracles are possible.



Do we really understand every thing about natural law ?

A miracle is something that at the present we don't have an explanation

Stephen Hawking said there is a probability that 10^500 types of universes could exist out of big bang. All with different set of laws of physics. If this is true, Miracle is possible, miracle is relative to our laws of physics in this universe, different laws of physics which appear strange to us mean miracles. therefore, the miracles in bible is possible, God which comes from another realm of Existence could perform miracles in this world.If this is such a straightforward deduction from his premise, aren't we all just a little bit surprised that he didn't say it himself? ;)

Do we really understand every thing about natural law ?

A miracle is something that at the present we don't have an explanation

We understand natural laws very well indeed but are always learning more everyday. Those laws can be proved by the scientific methold.

Something that happens that we don't understand are called amazing occurrences or mystifying which should be learned about as to how it happened and why. Just because we don't understand the unusual doesn't mean we can't find out about it and bring understanding to it. If someone wakes up, for an example, from a 5 year coma that is very mystifying but not something that couldn't happen because everyone was wanting the person to wake up and then they did. Amazing things happen that we just do not know why and that's another reason we call them amazing but search for their reasons.

Do we really understand every thing about natural law ?

A miracle is something that at the present we don't have an explanation

That's just a mystery, not a miracle.

If this is such a straightforward deduction from his premise, aren't we all just a little bit surprised that he didn't say it himself? ;)

because he has hit the wall he could not supercede,
he can't answer why actually miracles exist????:shrug:

God can transcend over laws of physics, He can do any laws he wants,
he commands the nature,
We know this well from His revelation.
Therefore, the miracles of Jesus Christ are possible, being witnessed by thousands of people, and until today, the church can do divine healing etc., with the grace of God.

What if the book is bullshit?

what if?
A skeptic will not find the truth.
God proves with facts of his existence,
in the nature, in people's heart.
When a sick person takes certain medicine and be cured, you will say that this is a proof that the medicine is true and effective.

So, when a sorrow person, at the edge of committing suicide, if he accepts Jesus, and be cured of his broken heart, won't u say that God is true as well?

No, I wouldn't say that. A disease has a specific cure, but a depressed person can be influenced by anything or anyone.

What about those religious people that commit suicide? Did god want them to die? Only a skeptic can think clearly about these things, someone with faith allows their desires to cloud their judgment.

Five hundred years ago, if someone used CPR to revive a drowning victim, this would appear to be a miracle to some people. To others, it would be the evil work of a witch or Devil. While to others, this would be a type of magic trick. The CPR would not depart from natural laws, but would make use of applications of natural laws that were not yet understand. But in all cases, it would make everyone irrational; pro, con, and suspiscious. People get spooked when they have to leave the box.

Say we return to the CPR miracle above. It is something that will be known in the future. But 500 years ago, it will have an impact on the experts of the day if they can not explain it in a logical way. All the doctors and biologists would be stumped based on their state of the art.

It can become a question of saving face and prestige. Sometime it would be easier to say it was from God, and for others to deny the truth that it ever happened, so you don't look stupid unable to offer a logical explanation. But ut never has anything to do with the B-rated state of the art calling itself A+, so prestige is higher, so face needs to be saved.

what if?
A skeptic will not find the truth.
God proves with facts of his existence,
in the nature, in people's heart.
When a sick person takes certain medicine and be cured, you will say that this is a proof that the medicine is true and effective.

So, when a sorrow person, at the edge of committing suicide, if he accepts Jesus, and be cured of his broken heart, won't u say that God is true as well?

Since the same could be said for the muslim religion or any other religion, does that prove that they are all true? Is heaven crowded with all of the different true Gods?

edited to add: If you believe in god and it gives you peace, more power to you, but the only way to believe in god is with FAITH; logic or science will fail to prove the existence of god every single time.

The important point to take out of this silly discussion is the following:

Theoretical physics does not say anything whatsoever is possible, otherwise there would be no point to postulating physical laws and mathematical restrictions on how things in the real world behave. Things we haven't yet observed might be possible (i.e. Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck "could" exist in real life), and nothing can be ruled out with 100% certainty, but any physical theory still places limitations on what's possible, even one with 10^{500} different possible vacuum configurations.

If God could be proven using a theory, that would mean God is constrained by the rules of that theory, in which case God wouldn't be an omnipotent warlord, which defeats the whole purpose of postulating God's existence in the first place.

Five hundred years ago, if someone used CPR to revive a drowning victim, this would appear to be a miracle to some people. To others, it would be the evil work of a witch or Devil. While to others, this would be a type of magic trick. The CPR would not depart from natural laws, but would make use of applications of natural laws that were not yet understand. But in all cases, it would make everyone irrational; pro, con, and suspiscious. People get spooked when they have to leave the box.

Say we return to the CPR miracle above. It is something that will be known in the future. But 500 years ago, it will have an impact on the experts of the day if they can not explain it in a logical way. All the doctors and biologists would be stumped based on their state of the art.


Jesus does not need CPR, he just touched the sick and they were healed.

Since the same could be said for the muslim religion or any other religion, does that prove that they are all true? Is heaven crowded with all of the different true Gods?

God is a gentleman-type,
He allows people to do good or evil according to their free will,
at the end of the day, you have to be accountable for your acts.

The positive side of all religions is to teach you doing good.
God has no reason to stop that.

If God could be proven using a theory, that would mean God is constrained by the rules of that theory,

God created the Existence of everything,
the laws of nature just points to His real existence, an indicator only.
We can not be sure of God thru natural laws,
it is His Revelation that proves his existence, and Confirm that the laws of nature is under his command when He performs miracles.

There are no miracles.

Jesus does not need CPR, he just touched the sick and they were healed.

How do you know this is true, without referring to the bible.


God is a gentleman-type,
He allows people to do good or evil according to their free will,
at the end of the day, you have to be accountable for your acts.

The positive side of all religions is to teach you doing good.
God has no reason to stop that.

You've completely missed the point. Origin was saying that if Jesus exists as god because someone's life is saved from accepting Jesus, then why can't it true for all possible gods such as the Islamic god?


God created the Existence of everything,
the laws of nature just points to His real existence, an indicator only.
We can not be sure of God thru natural laws,
it is His Revelation that proves his existence, and Confirm that the laws of nature is under his command when He performs miracles.

God created the existence of everything... assumption.
Laws and complexity of nature points to a designer... assumption.

And even if these false assumptions were true, how do you know it's your god? Again, without referring to the tale you call the bible.

I have my PhD in mechanical engineering, I study science and technology until today.
Don't scorn at Assumption.
What ever theories of science, majority are made on Assumption, started with hypotheses.
And there are many assumptions made in solving engineering problems,
ignoring the weight, assume it is rigid body, ignoring the friction etc......

Science and Engineering is never Precise 100%.

Therefore you don't scorn at Religion, saying that its belief is Assumption.

I have my PhD in mechanical engineering, I study science and technology until today.
Don't scorn at Assumption.
What ever theories of science, majority are made on Assumption, started with hypotheses.
And there are many assumptions made in solving engineering problems,
ignoring the weight, assume it is rigid body, ignoring the friction etc......

Science and Engineering is never Precise 100%.

Therefore you don't scorn at Religion, saying that its belief is Assumption.

So you do admit they're assumptions. The difference between assuming the weight of an object in an engineering problem and assuming that god created everything is that there's reason behind the former, but not the latter.

You can assume anything without reasoning. Now tell me, what is the reasoning behind 'god created everything'?

God created the universe is not an Assumption.
It is his revelation to human, written down on the Bible through his prophets,
and in addition to that, God shows his influence on people who believe in him through many things like miracles, change of life etc.
Many people experience the fill of Holy Ghost and testify.

Of course, other religions also have similar stories to tell you, it is the grace of God to give human's free will to do what they can do.

But specifically, to be saved and have eternal life, God provides the only way through Jesus Christ.

there is no evidence to support multiverse,
no observational evidence at all,
it is purely a hypothesis, very weak reasonable ground.

How does a seperate universe with a seperate set of physical laws equate to a miracle in our universe or the existence of a 'God'? Your conclusion makes absolutely no sense.


What "Saint" is getting at is that "other universes" as posited by many modern physicists would logically conceivably have other laws of nature which if compared with our laws of nature would appear to be supernatural -- i.e., miracles.

After all, if "multiple universes" are conceivable, surely "other laws" are too.

The only problem would be to explain how those other laws from another universe could become present within our universe such that humans could witness the comparison/contrast.

There are no miracles.

I can think of two miracles off the top of my head:

1) When my mother-in-law admits she is wrong.

2) When one (just one) politically correct multi-culturalist sees (after a mountain of data has impinged on his Box for years) that Islam is an evil and dangerous geopolitical ideology.

What "Saint" is getting at is that "other universes" as posited by many modern physicists would logically conceivably have other laws of nature which if compared with our laws of nature would appear to be supernatural -- i.e., miracles.

Oh? Do you have examples?



After all, if "multiple universes" are conceivable, surely "other laws" are too.

I disagree. Being able to conceive of something doesn't make it possible; however, if other universes exist with other laws then those things are well... laws. A miracle would be an outright violation of those laws (ex. an emputee spontaneously gains back a lost limb, a severely retarded human spontaneously gains normal or higher human social and cognitive ability, or the statue of liberty spontaenously turns into solid diamond).



The only problem would be to explain how those other laws from another universe could become present within our universe such that humans could witness the comparison/contrast.

I don't agree that it is the only problem.

There are no miracles.


I visited my country of birth. Because of obedience to the Holy Spirit .

I am alive here and relatively prosperous , in comparison to my practically extinct family, killed and died of alcoholism in my land of birth,
It is a miracle

A miracle is a violation of natural laws, so Hawking is not implying that miracles are possible.

a miracle can be just a simple end run around the odds..

IE..the coma patient who suddenly wakes up,
the priest who does not violate young boys..(:eek:)
the atheist who finally admits there is a God..
the SciForum user who changes his opinion..

why does God have to violate natural laws?
he created the system,why would he create something he couldn't work in?

I visited my country of birth. Because of obedience to the Holy Spirit .

I am alive here and relatively prosperous , in comparison to my practically extinct family, killed and died of alcoholism in my land of birth,
It is a miracle
It's fortunate, but no miracle.


a miracle can be just a simple end run around the odds..

IE..the coma patient who suddenly wakes up,
the priest who does not violate young boys..(:eek:)
the atheist who finally admits there is a God..
the SciForum user who changes his opinion..

why does God have to violate natural laws?
he created the system,why would he create something he couldn't work in?
That's what I'm saying. Something that is simply unlikely is not a miracle, since this would discount everyone and everything that doesn't beat the odds. Unlikely things happen. This is a completely secular idea.

How bout Me stating there would be a spiral and then it happening yesterday . That was pretty miraculous for Me . Course it could have all been a coinkidink . Like when I said Islam needed to learn there are more way to god than just Islam and Chi fought Me about it so I told Him I would have to teach him a lesson and then in no time at all , need I say who got shot in the head . Lets not talk about the black swan . That is to much to face. It is not my fault . I don't choose . The earth chooses. Electo-Magnetic pulses would be my guess . Like farm animals feeling equal potential planes . That is pretty miraculous if you ask Me. I felt several of the pulses yesterday . Like waves . Little power surges . In succession. Like a rhythm with exact intervals . I don't know what they were , but I could feel them . It swayed Me body ever so slightly . I though maybe it was cosmic radiation . It lasted maybe 30 seconds or a bit more . I feel like I took something on when it happened . Like a support group happened some were in the world . I don't know it was strange . Hallucination possibly . Can't say for sure ? Do people that hallucinate know there hallucinating ? I don't think I was ?

That's what I'm saying. Something that is simply unlikely is not a miracle, since this would discount everyone and everything that doesn't beat the odds. Unlikely things happen. This is a completely secular idea.

the underlying question is 'is God supernatural or natural?'
IOW why does a miracle have to be supernatural to be a miracle?

<i noticed you did not disagree about sciforums users..:)>

If it's natural, then it's not god by definition. Naturalistic processes can be understood.

If it's natural, then it's not god by definition. Naturalistic processes can be understood.

understood by whom?

If it's natural, then it's not god by definition. Naturalistic processes can be understood.
..that still does not discount God.

again i argue, why would God create a system that he could not work with?

does God use a hammer to influence things?
i think he tends to be more subtle than that..

There could be a god that doesn't interact with the world, but it's not the Christian one.

what is the most important,
God Loves You.

Ya I wonder what makes God want to take some action in our world. What attributes need to be present for God to intervene in saving/helping one person while ignoring thousands of others.Perhaps performing one miracle is too much for the lad. :zzz:

..that still does not discount God.

again i argue, why would God create a system that he could not work with?

does God use a hammer to influence things?
i think he tends to be more subtle than that..

no the bible calls it the Hammer of the world . Old Testament

Ya I wonder what makes God want to take some action in our world. What attributes need to be present for God to intervene in saving/helping one person while ignoring thousands of others.Perhaps performing one miracle is too much for the lad. :zzz:



acknowledge Him , then ask and then patiently wait.

and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait... and die.

AlexG, I am officially proud that you have been declared my doppleganger by an un-named believer :3.

Worth reading this:


Guess what? Sagan was right (although it took a little more than a decade). Sagan's second alternative, the oscillating universe model has been discredited by a lack of sufficient matter to cause a contraction.1 It was further discredited by the discovery of dark energy, which shows that the universe is actually expanding at an ever increasing rate.2 So, Sagan's first alternative is the one that turned out to be true. My guess is that he was betting on the second. Of course, the atheists haven't lined up to become Christians, but instead have invented their own form of metaphysics (i.e., religion). Atheists have invented the multiverse, a kind of super-universe that randomly spews out other universes (with differing physical laws) at will. The multiverse sounds scientific, but it is really philosophical wishful thinking, since there is no evidence supporting the idea. If one really thinks about it, the multiverse is impossible over the entire period of eternity (which is what atheists would propose for the age of the "invisible" part of our universe - if such a thing exists at all). The problem is that our part of the multiverse has managed to make itself completely inaccessible to contraction and future expansion. If it were possible for one part of the multiverse to become thermodynamically dead, it would be expected to be possible for others. Even if entry into such a state is extremely unlikely, eternity is a very, very long time. Certainly by now (over all eternity), the entire multiverse would have entered into one of these thermodynamically dead zones. So, one would expect the entire multiverse to have suffered thermodynamic death by now. Therefore, it makes absolutely no sense that the universe is eternal with the characteristics that we observe. We are left with Sagan's first alternative - God did it. Atheists like to say that there is no evidence for God's existence and pretend such evidence doesn't exist. However, Sagan realized that science could judge between religious claims.

Ya I wonder what makes God want to take some action in our world. What attributes need to be present for God to intervene in saving/helping one person while ignoring thousands of others.Perhaps performing one miracle is too much for the lad. :zzz:

as far as i'm aware, it's driven by our desire. are you sure it's not the other way around, and it's only a handful of humans who reach out to god while the vast majority deny him?

Worth reading this:

just a suggestion..quit using the color crayon to write..

Oh? Do you have examples?



You missed one crucial word in my post -- I said such laws from another universe would appear to be miracles, when compared with the laws of our universe.

You missed one crucial word in my post -- I said such laws from another universe would appear to be miracles, when compared with the laws of our universe.

I think my response wasn't understood then. Let me re-respond with expanded verbiage... Can you provide an example of a foreign-universe law that would appear to be a miracle when compared with the laws of our universe? I realize that this example can't be based on a real foreign-universe at the moment; however, I am sure you can certainly postualte some laws based on the underlying multi-worlds theory.

multiverse is just a bold assumtion, no evidence at all,
this is a religious belief of some scientists.

multiverse is just a bold assumtion, no evidence at all,
this is a religious belief of some scientists.

It's really rare that every single assertion in a statement is wrong. "Multiverse" is a term that collectively referrs to any number of hypothesis or theories of reality that posit the existence of multiple universes. Different theories have different sets of supportive evidence; however, at present none of them are conclusive by any means. Additionaly, I don't think any scientist claims that some particular multi-verse theory is true... which would disqualify it from being a religious belief.

Worth reading this:

We will always need to believe in something greater.

Dear Saint (or is it Dr. Saint?)- you are out of your league. Best to back away.

no the bible calls it the Hammer of the world . Old Testament

that's funny. i've often called god "the hammer", as a nickname. didn't know it was in the bible.

Religion is not only to be known by brain, but to be felt by heart.
If you never experience the grace of God, you will never know His true existence.

I thought I did once, but it was just heartburn. Pepto cured it.

that's funny. i've often called god "the hammer", as a nickname. didn't know it was in the bible.

Who do you think right now is the hammer of the world Lori?
I got a song for you to hear . I know it is not black metal , but I think the lyrics will touch your heart dear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KkUeRPjc-Y

Who do you think right now is the hammer of the world Lori?
I got a song for you to hear . I know it is not black metal , but I think the lyrics will touch your heart dear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KkUeRPjc-Y

"black metal" heh heh heh.

that was nice. i like that song. i like the banjo. dude has a nice voice.

of course god is the hammer of the world...the creator...the law...

that we break ourselves against...put ourselves back together according to.

in a more personal sense, that's what it's felt like at times...the hammer upside my head...the hammer pounding me into shape.

We understand natural laws very well indeed but are always learning more everyday. Those laws can be proved by the scientific methold.


Wrong, no true scientist has ever said that we understand the laws of the universe.



I can think of two miracles off the top of my head:

1) When my mother-in-law admits she is wrong.

2) When one (just one) politically correct multi-culturalist sees (after a mountain of data has impinged on his Box for years) that Islam is an evil and dangerous geopolitical ideology.

LMAO


Ya I wonder what makes God want to take some action in our world. What attributes need to be present for God to intervene in saving/helping one person while ignoring thousands of others.Perhaps performing one miracle is too much for the lad. :zzz:

Make a poll that asks how many miracles have happened in 1 day...and you will see the error in that question/statement.


multiverse is just a bold assumption, no evidence at all,
this is a religious belief of some scientists.

THANK YOU!!!!


Religion is not only to be known by brain, but to be felt by heart.


This I disagree on. Why else would we be given the gift of understanding, if not too understand the bible.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is stupid."

Albert Einstein

Who do you think right now is the hammer of the world Lori?
I got a song for you to hear . I know it is not black metal , but I think the lyrics will touch your heart dear





NIN(nine inch nails) is better.

AlexG, I am officially proud that you have been declared my doppleganger by an un-named believer :3.

What is with the 3 . Why do you have that 3 there . I don't get it ? Am I missing something . Knock knock . Whose there . Whats for dinner

multiverse is just a bold assumtion, no evidence at all,
this is a religious belief of some scientists.

Now that was brilliant Me friend . Yeah . people are so stupid when it comes down to belief . I think I can tie my shoe . I don't know ? We better measure the length of your arms and see if they are long enough to tie your shoes . Well we better compensate for the gyrations of your hip . But mine are not as flexible as the average hip . We might have to get more hip. Should of just got one of the kids to do and be done with it .

What is with the 3 . Why do you have that 3 there . I don't get it ? Am I missing something . Knock knock . Whose there . Whats for dinner

Not 3... :3... cat smiley.

Shouldn't you go back to the drawing board with this thread?

Stephen Hawking said there is a probability that 10^500 types of universes could exist out of big bang.
All with different set of laws of physics.
If this is true, Miracle is possible, miracle is relative to our laws of physics in this universe, different laws of physics which appear strange to us mean miracles.

therefore, the miracles in bible is possible,
God which comes from another realm of Existence could perform miracles in this world.
Miracles are possible because of the multiverse.

there is no evidence to support multiverse,
no observational evidence at all,
it is purely a hypothesis, very weak reasonable ground.
There is no multiverse.

Slightly confused, Saint?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is stupid."

Albert Einstein

Sorry stupid. That's not the quote.

@graviton --

It would be much more accurate if you just cut out the first half of that quote.

Stephen Hawking said there is a probability that 10^500 types of universes could exist out of big bang.
All with different set of laws of physics.
If this is true, Miracle is possible, miracle is relative to our laws of physics in this universe, different laws of physics which appear strange to us mean miracles.

therefore, the miracles in bible is possible,
God which comes from another realm of Existence could perform miracles in this world.
The Big Bang seems to be the best idea at the moment; but......
In any case, an omnipotent God can violate the laws of nature: after all, He`s their Creator. Plus, all of Creation is a miracle because He wills it out of nothing.
There are heaps of miracles recorded in the Bible; and, as other said, they still happen.

There has to be a First Cause

God is the eternal First Cause.

Omnipotence is an impossible trait. No being can be omnipotent as they would have to be able to do things that are definitionally impossible. For example, an omnipotent being would have to be able to throw a ball further than they could catch it, which is impossible. Then there's that whole "rock bigger than they can lift" one too. Both of these examples highlight the logical impossibility of omnipotence, it simply can't exist.

And there need be no first cause. Positing a "first cause" merely forces you into an infinite regress, you need to keep positing more causes by the very logic you use to posit a need for a first cause. Positing anything which is exempt from that is a logical fallacy known as special pleading and is very bad form.

Besides, science has already shown that something can, and indeed does(all the time), come from nothing. The phenomenon is known as vacuum fluctuations and is very well established as it's responsible for the most accurate predictions in all of science. Given that we live in a flat universe which means that it has a total energy of zero, vacuum fluctuations alone are enough to explain why there's something rather than nothing.