More support for my theory in writing here. Check it out. Please note, for those of you who aren't familiar with my theory, that what you are about to read is the end times deception of the Antichrist. Seek the truth.
(hint: it's in the Bible).
http://www.fromthestars.com/page3.html


Hmph. And you all thought I was nuts to say that the alien phenomenon would eventually turn into a spiritual movement. Didn't you FLASH?????? WHAT WAS IT YOU SAID? THAT I WAS FULL O' CRAP? ROFLMAO! Told ya so. (Sorry, couldn't help it.) You happen to be walking talking proof of my theory. God works in mysterious ways doesn't He?
------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 27, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 27, 2000).]

Lori,

Thanks for the link!! This is some of the best stuff I've read in a long time! I'd like to copy one of the truths regarding the unconditional love of God here, for those who haven't gone to the site:


Unconditional love means that we are loved without limits, reservations, attachments, controls, provisions,
qualifications, demands, expectations, judgements, needs, obsessions, stipulations, clauses, boundaries, restraints, equivocations, regulations, confinements.

In other words, no matter what we do,
God loves us.

This is not what many of us have been taught
and those teachings have caused much of the
fear and doubt that far too many of us walk
around with today.

Since it is impossible to prove the truth
of unconditional love we are left with two choices. One is to listen to the fearful teachings of others on this subject. The other is to look into the heart and discover for ourselves what it is telling us.

Our minds will put up an enormous battle when we ignore its answers.

The ego wants no part of the unconditional love concept.

The heart understands nothing else.

Love yourself as God loves you...then love others the same way.

This is pretty typical of everything I've read so far at this site (although I admit I haven't been through the whole thing yet). Is this what you're referring to as the "end-times deception"? It beats the heck out of the fear-based, hell-fire and damnation garbage I've read in the Bible! Where do I sign up? :)

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Here is my theory..

Ufo's (are demons)/(are controlled by demons)/(have demons inside of them). Take your pick. By demons I mean fallen angels. Ufo's seemingly defy the laws of physics. The most plausible explanation I've seen is that the force behind these things is extradimensional in its being.

I don't think any "christian" has ever been abducted by an alien. A lot of ufos can be explained outside of the supernatural realm. Venus is often reported as a ufo. It has a -4.4 magnitude I think. Its really bright and I think it is number one thing thats reported most often as a ufo. Lenticular clouds and lots of other natural phenomenon can expalian away most alleged ufo sitings but there is a small percentege for which no natural explanation can be given. I think there is too much evidence to just sweep it away under the rug and label people who see these things or claim to be abducted delusional. See, the christian world view takes everything into account? It even has room for those little martians that kept stealing Al Bundy' socks for fuel :)

Some Christians feel the antichrist will be an alien that offers world peace or something like that. It fits. Thats all I'll say.

Grace and peace in Christ,
Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

[This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited January 27, 2000).]

Searcher,
Yeah, but that is the kicker.... Only their(christians) God wants to PUNISH. They say one should be cautious if another only speak of love etc..
Two thumbs up on the site, huh? ;)

Lori, say what you want... any way you slice it...it all comes up LOVE..and a little Spirit of Truth along the way :D

Vinnie,
I have read stories of others who claim to be christians and are abducted and still being abducted...
surfed the net a bit and found this for you:

For Luca, alien abduction is not something God helps her endure, it is the experience of union with God Himself.

"My faith is as strong as the Rock I stand on," she said. "And because I've experienced a deep walk and been privy to personal extraterrestrial encounters, I am blessed."

There are probably as many stories of the effect on the personal religious beliefs of abductees as there are individuals who undergo the experience-an experience that uproots a person from their familiar sense of reality and shocks them into a state of consciousness where God turns up in many different ways, but nearly always makes the abductee grateful that He showed up at all.

Flash--

It's also a pervasive idea within institutional Christianity that the best thing to do about "deviant" theories of God--starting with those that simply reflect a different interpretation of God than the Church--should be denied without consideration.

Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp ... from the beginning, so long as there was an institutional vessel to escort the Christian idea by fire and mercy through the ages, it has been the standard that it is dangerous to one's immortal soul to even consider whether or not ideas outside the prescribed dogma have argumentative validity.

Given the diversity of "official" interpretations of God's will--whether Catholic, Byzantine, or Heretical (Bogomil, Gnostic, &c.); whether Baptist, Episcopal, or Lutheran--does it not seem odd, this monopoly on propriety?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Lori--

Aside from the fact that most of that site seems to be recycled, common, New-Age harmony ... well, the only threat it poses might be the one you assume.

Might I propose that the only danger of such resources is that which you assign them?

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Tiassa,
Yes it is odd! Wonder why that is?

It's also a pervasive idea within institutional Christianity that the best thing to do about "deviant" theories of God--starting with those that simply reflect a different interpretation of God than the Church--should be denied without consideration
How true...we have witnessed this demonstration by the christians out here again and again....

from the beginning, so long as there was an institutional vessel to escort the Christian idea by fire and mercy through the ages, it has been the standard that it is dangerous to one's immortal soul to even consider whether or not ideas outside the prescribed dogma have argumentative validity.
Which is why they refuse to listen to anything but. (hint Lori, TS, ISDAMan, Vinnie, Christian...am I leaving anyone out??) LOL



------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Searcher,

I'm so confused.....All Jesus taught about constantly, and showed to all of us was unconditional love. And showed us how to show that to each other. The God of the Bible DOES love us unconditionally, as it states ALL OVER the Bible. What Bible have YOU been reading exactly??????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Uh, exuse me Tiassa, but it's not institutionalized anything which I draw from as an inspirational source or source of truth. This is straight out of the Bible. Specifically Revelations. I'm serious now, if you guys really want to debate this intelligently, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO ACTUALLY HAVE TO READ AND SEEK TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE. Why don't you all get that? I mean, would you try to debate a doctor if you knew nothing about medicine? Would you debate a physicist if you knew nothing about physics? You get the idea. The simple fact is that you guys are so totally LOST. You know, and I know, as it is plainly evident by your posts that you understand NOTHING about the Bible or anything it's teaching. Hey, that's your choice, but don't try telling me a thing or two, cause I've done my homework.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Lori-

Huh? I don't see anything talking about an antichrist. I do see something that sounds close to my own heart, however...

"Mother Earth and all of her children (living things) has a built in desire to keep things in balance, in harmony. "

Ah! They're talking about my Goddess! Oh, is that what you meant by antichrist, Lori?? That it's not specifically Christian? Otherwise, I'm missing your point.

That reminds me, Lori, I think it was you a few weeks back that asked me a question, something along the lines that Christianity explains my religion, does my religion explain Christianity... I can't remember what thread that was, or I'd answer it there, but here goes anyway.. The answer is Yes. I dunno if you're still interested in that question/answer, so I won't disturb the thread with the full answer right now. Just let me know if you are curious as to what I mean. :) (By the way, I like DaveW's little "angel" he made for you - very cute.)

Lori

Ok, Lori, let's play in ur ballpark.

Ur contention is the bible is inerrant, right?

Where did Lot's wife come from?

If we r made from the dust of the earth why is our (and every other land mammal's) blood salty like early sea water? God run out of ideas?

Why does carbon dating show a VERY old earth if God amde the whole thing in 6 days about 4K years ago?



------------------
The Sailor says, remember Omar was right.

Flash,

Try not to allow yourself to be deceived even further. Just because someone makes a couple of "feel good" statements which you "feel" supports your beliefs does not make it so (does not make it "true").

For example, all one has to do is look at the threads on this board to "know" that Christians have "not" denied your theories without consideration. To the contrary, a number of Christians on this board have taken much time to consider your theories. Not only have they considered them, they also understand them. Not only have they considered them and not only do they understand them, they have also accepted that this is what you believe and know why you believe the way you do.

So, the statement that Christians have denied the theories of others without consideration is not only "not" an accurate statement of fact, as evidenced by the discussions on this board it is an outright "lie" which you seem to want to accept as "truth" because it seems to makes you "feel good."

There are a number of Christians on this board who have been listening to you intently. Not only have they been "listening" but they also "hear" you, "understand" what you are saying and are familiar with the source of your argument.

So, don't be deceived into thinking that just because someone disagrees with you that they haven't been listening, no matter how good such a false thought might make you feel.

Lori--

The Bible is institutional.

Furthermore, methinks you have too high an opinion of your own opinion.

--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

TS,
Wellllllll ouch!!!!!!! Ok, ok, ok...I SEE your point. Just disregard the prior post I had made..... nothing more said

This board continues to confuse the heck out of me more everyday. I feel like all I do is tread water. Or I'm stuck in mud or something. It's really strange. Just thought I'd share.

Tiassa,

I'm smiling as usual just to mention. :D You may very well think that I think too highly of my own opinion. I suppose I understand where you're coming from. All I can really say to that is I think that everyone's opinion is relative, it's just that I happen to be comparing mine with yours specifically in this particular cirmumstance, and yes, I definately think I'm closer to the cigar than you are. Sorry, I don't think I'm better than you or whatever because of that. I'm sure that there are many things that you have a better opinion about than me, you know? No biggie. I'm just tryin' to share, man. Cut me some slack. I'm just tryin' to get you all to the truth. I want you guys to know Jesus like I do, cause believe me, YOU DO NOT. If you did, then at least some of what I say would make sense for crying out loud. LOL!

And Tiassa, you've got the wrong idea AGAIN. Ugh, it's like talking to a brick sometimes. I don't think that these spirits or the abduction experience and newfound spiritual "enlightenment" is demonic and the end times deception just because it's unfamiliar to me in some way, or because I'm assuming ANYTHING, or because their beliefs don't line up with my own. The fact is that these teachings ARE explained and described very well in the Bible, and they are something that I AM very familiar with only BECAUSE of the Bible. I'm not even going to mention the out and out direct messages that I've received from the Holy Spirit, because I would imagine that your answer to that is that I'm delusional or something. Whatever. If this phenomenon and resulting spiritual teachings weren't described at all in the Bible, or by my faith, then I couldn't see how I COULD possibly have the opinion that I do. It's not just an opinion either, I'm afraid that it's a cold hard fact. I don't reject ideas because they are new to me, or don't fit my existing paradigms. I'm not that stupid %$#-&%$@. But if something is explained to me in black and white, and it's obvious as hell, and it makes total logical sense, then what am I supposed to think? If I were the kind of so called Christian that you're always trying to make me out to be, then I wouldn't even touch this phenomenon with a ten foot pole. I'd do the ol' "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" routine that you are suggesting. Now wouldn't I? ;)

MoonCat,

This is difficult to take the time to type as well, but let me just ask you something pretty basic here....If the Antichrist was trying to DECEIVE humanity, then why in the world would he be announcing that he was the Antichrist????????????????????????????????
I mean, deception ceases to exist when the truth is known, yes? I'm so floored. Ugh. Ok, I need an Advil.

Flash,

Don't be all giving out false info about God. Listen, God does not want to punish. HENCE HE GIVES US HIS SON JESUS CHRIST AS THE LAMB OF GOD SO THAT ANYONE WHO BELIEVES UNTO HIM IS FORGIVEN AND WASHED CLEAN FROM ALL SIN. What is your problem? You KNOW that don't you? Yes, you do. But I'll tell you what the problem is in a nutshell. You don't have a problem with punishment. You have a problem with admitting there is such a thing as sin, and that you sin, and repentence. The only forgiveness that is available in this universe is through salvation in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the ONLY way to ESCAPE the death that is the reaction to the action of sin. Whether you or anyone else likes it or not. You don't like the idea of punishment? Then I suggest that you get the hell away from the spirits that you are cohorting with, cause they're going down in flames, and you'll go right with them. And I swear that everyone out on this board and everyone in your life can testify that IT WILL BE BY YOUR OWN CHOICE.

I really am having a difficult time doing this, but I'm going to explain this yet again. I swear I've had to say this exact same thing a million times, but here it goes again.....

You agree that every action has a reaction right? And a ripple effect at that right? Ok. You know how nature "works"? Like there is a balance in nature that if not perverted, will perpetuate itself in a perfect way? Ok. Spiritual laws work the same way that natural laws do. Every action has a reaction. Ok. Pain and Suffering = Spiritual Pollution!!!!!!! GET IT???????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????
We screw around with nature and we get pollution and death. We screw around with spiritual law and we get suffering and death. People? Hello, but this makes PERFECT sense, and not just because the Bible says so, but f'ing TAKE A LOOK AROUND FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. This makes sense based upon EVERYTHING we know to be true in this world based upon history and science and our own blasted emotions. Are you even aware of what YOUR theory equates to? Well, your "theory of everything's relative" equates to God having to create a different little specialized universe for each one of us to live in by ourself. Like in a vacuum. And then according to you and every other believer, that universe would be subject to edit every time your dumb butt realized you screwed up in some way. So Tiassa, stick that in your....

And guess what people? God did us a huge favor ok? If He was not a loving God, He could have made a universe for us that was a really awful place to be. You know, like maybe the way the world is RIGHT NOW??? But the fact is that He didn't. He made the natural and spiritual laws so that we would have the most wonderful and peaceful and loving lives ever imaginable!!!!! It pisses me off sooooooooo bad that people want to BLAME God. BLAME HIM FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!! And all the while OUT AND OUT REFUSING TO EVEN TAKE AN HONEST LOOK AT HIS LAWS AND THEIR INTENT!!!!!!!! HYPOCRITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also Flash, I've read stories of people who call themselves Christians who beat their children and frequent prostitutes. What's your point? How much money do you want to bet that Luca didn't test the spirits that she's with like it says to in the Bible just like you won't? I've got quite a wad....how much? How much do you want to bet that her "god" tells her that Jesus wasn't really the Saviour either? How much? I'd really like to quit my job, so let's wager big huh? :)

Oh, and Ivan

LMAO!


And please could someone please help poor Mike the Sailor? My head hurts too bad to even approach those ridiculous questions right now. Thanks a bunch. :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 28, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 28, 2000).]

Flash,

Thank you. I am VERY glad that you have decided not allow yourself to be deceived even further.

Please consider this: It is this same "feel good" mechanism which is causing you to buy into what the aliens are telling you about "truth"... You want to believe that what they are telling you is true when, in reality, it is not.

This deceptive spirit knows where you have been and what condition you were in when it approached you with the big "lie" and it knew that you were at a spiritual point in your life where you would "want to" buy into it. You were a perfect candidate... that is why you were chosen by the master of deceit.

Lori--

First off, let me advise you to cram it up your own ....

Unfortunately, the ideas of God you express don't match up with what is observable in nature. If God is everything and everything is God, then everything in nature should be in accordance with God's will.

This much, I can accept, no matter what we call God. Because we can, safely, assume that nature IS in accordance with God's will, unless we start insisting that God is or isn't something. What, then, of those things that God, suddenly, by human definition, is not?

Furthermore, both you and Truestory seem to have this thing about the institutions of Christianity. Answer me this, please:

* Had Christianity not gained political acceptance in Rome; had the Church not employed propaganda, warfare, and torture to secure its political position; had "God" not "justified" human exploitation (say, the slavery without which the United States would be very different); had "God" not justified Manifest Destiny, which compelled us to violently and deceitfully, as a nation, eliminate everything that stood in the way of our territorial domination or interfered with our financial aspirations .... Would the cornerstone to your faith--the Bible--have made it? If some bishop hadn't been up to attending the conference, would a different canon have been set?

That's the most obvious relationship I see between the institutional history and the modern individual.

Have you read Maccabees? Have your read the Gospels of Saint Thomas, or Saint Mary? Can you tell me why Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the only "official" Gospels? What was so offensive about Tobit that it had to stay out of the Bible? That's why I say your Bible is institutional.

Furthermore, your paranoia of the Church is so great that any attempt to create allegories, analogies, or other forms of comparison or illustration result in an affirmation of your independent correctness in your interpretation of God.

Do you know what Ahura-Mazda, or Ahriman-Ormuzd represents? Can you recognize how much the Manichian dualisms of Persia affected early Christian faith? Does it matter to you that upwards of sixty Gospels of Christ were lopped out of the canon for political reasons?

Or, we could look at the Church institution this way: Why do you choose to be Christian? (It's rhetorical, but I suppose I wouldn't object to your answer, either; but you're not obliged by the sake of this argument.) Is it merely to save your own soul? To make the world a better place? Some other reason that we've never covered?

It seems that if personal salvation is a person's goal for loving Christ, they're greedy and that doesn't fly with God; but that's interpretive and merely my own opinion. I think to make the temporal world a better place is a fine answer; it fits well into the notion of bringing humanity--worldwide--back to God. As to other reasons--well, they belong to whoever holds them. But what I'm wondering is your opinion of the sum effect of a billion Christians on the face of the modern world.

One of the biggest libraries in the world, and perhaps the biggest theological library in the world, is in the Vatican. Are these volumes worthless? Or do they contribute to the heritage of the faith you claim? What is your association to the Christian heritage?

According to your antinstitutional regard, none of these questions matter. If that is the case, then I'm wondering if you're the first person in the world to get God's "real" message, and that the billions who came before you were just missing the point? You know, Christians died to figure out the questions you refuse to consider; does that mean anything at all to you? Or do they not matter because their work became part of "the institution"?

I'll quote you here: "Are you even aware of what YOUR theory equates to? Well, your "theory of everything's relative" equates to God having to create a different little specialized universe for each one of us to live in by ourself. Like in a vacuum. And then according to you and every other believer, that universe would be subject to edit every time your dumb butt realized you screwed up in some way."

Thank you for that subjective interpretation; yes, people go through specialized universes in their thought process from time to time--some stall out and some move past it. You see, I know my theories need to evolve; I am also aware that my theories will never reach fruition in my lifetime--we all chase what we cannot catch. But it's better than assuming the universe I learned when I was a child is actually the universe; believe me, life would be a lot more exciting if it was. In the end, though, I do believe that you're free to interpret my theories and ideas as you see fit. You don't seem to be so flexible in that regard. So I'll give you a hint: the key in working with other people's interpretations of anything is the ability to recognize you might possibly be wrong. Your ... "faith" ... however, seems to instruct you to recognize anything but the potential of being wrong.

But, if my theories upset you so, please consider how you came to your interpretation; after all, your lack of imagination and innovation are hardly my fault.

I quote you again: "It pisses me off sooooooooo bad that people want to BLAME God. BLAME HIM FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!! And all the while OUT AND OUT REFUSING TO EVEN TAKE AN HONEST LOOK AT HIS LAWS AND THEIR INTENT!!!!!!!! HYPOCRITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Personally, I think a lot of non-Christians give more thought to God's intent than Christians. After all, many people wonder why the intent of God's law does not reflect in its execution. I wonder why many Christians, such as yourself, would rather write off such difficulties than fix them.

And you ... you can just light up any forum you want, cussing and fuming at people ... what's up? You just pray to God, later, and Jesus forgives you for your transgression? Mind you, you can say, yell, and cuss what you like ... that's not the point. I mean, we're seeing a cutesy bumper sticker being brought to life here: "Christians aren't perfect, they're just forgiven."

It's funny ... many non-Christians can take a tragic evil, examine its nature, define its effects, and, perhaps, reconcile it to God, so that the evil is not so much evil, but now fits in with God's plan. But that perspective requires looking at good and evil as a relationship that transcends human perspective. But if you put that tragic evil before Christians ... well, you and True have demonstrated that this is a bad idea, at least in this forum. Apparently, it hasn't occurred to you that you might be experiencing a different definition of evil than God--in that case, which assessment is right, yours or God's?

I also wanted to check in with you, to make sure you're ok. I'm concerned that you might be on drugs. Do you use caffeine? Is it problematic in your life?

No? Then please, chill out a little, and maybe we can make some progress.

--Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Lori,

My computer wanted to say something in previous time, but it did it too silently. ;)

Seriously,

Thanks for the link. I add it to my favourities.

There is only one thing which worry me: Why their opinions (in the site) so similar to my ones? If I send something to this forum in the future, you will say that it was copied from the site. :(

http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/ivan.gif

The Ravens Are Not What They Seem




------------------

Lori,

You might already be familiar with the following, however, since it seems to be presented in a "mixed bag" above, I add the following as a matter of clarity...

The Catholic Church includes "Tobit and 1 and 2 Macabees" in the books of the Bible.

The Protestant Church does not.

Which leads us to define Catholic vs Protestant use of the term "Apocrypha"... (It seems like at least one person was influenced during their childhood by such bickering among various Christian "schisms"... It is no wonder that, as an individual, they cannot focus on the basic foundation of Christianity. They view Christianity as as mish-mosh of "ideas" rather than a basic truth and their ability to focus on the divine message of salvation through Jesus Christ seems to have become obscured).

Catholics use the term "Apocrypha" when desribing books which were rejected by the Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) as being non-biblical. (A few of these books include: 3 and 4 Ezra, 3 and 4 Macabees, Prayer of Manasses and the Gospel of James). These books mostly treat the incidents and events during the life of Christ not related to the books of the Bible. The Catholic Church regards the books of the "Apocrypha" as being well worth reading since they address incidents and events during the life of Christ - historical information - not otherwise available. However, the Catholic Church sees some of the stories in these books to have at least slightly heretical tendencies and they have been excluded from the Catholic Bible. Note: The Tobit, 1 and 2 Macabees, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach and Baruch ARE included in the Catholic Bible. It seems that the Catholic Church did not find Tobit to be offensive.

Protestants use the term "Apocrypha" to designate those seven books which are "included" in the Catholic Bible canon and listed above (Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 and 2 Macabees). These seven books are not accepted by Protestants and are not found in Protestant Bibles. (It seems our friend above favors the Catholic version of the Bible and applies Luther's "lopping" to the whole of Christianity... interesting, don't you think? Seems almost like the Catholic influence left a greater impression).

At any rate, the books which Catholics call "Apocrypha," the Protestants call "Pseudepigraphal"...

At one time, Luther also had eliminated: Hebrews, James, Jude and the Apocalypse from the New Testament, but Protestants later reinserted them. Today, the Catholic and Protestant New Testament books are identical.

The seven disputed books of the Old Testament are also called the "deuterocanonical" books (books of the second canon), while the rest of the books of the Old Testament comprise the "protocanonical" books (books of the first canon). Books of the second canon are only found in Catholic canon. That is the difference between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles.

PS - The reasons why each of the seven books were eliminated by Luther were due to one of the following three arbitrary reasons:

1. They were written after the time of Ezra, or

2. They were not written in Hebrew, or

3. They were not written in Palestine.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 28, 2000).]

Truestory--

A couple of comments:

* Nice rescue ;)

* I wanted to make sure we were clear on a point, thus I quote you:

"Protestants use the term "Apocrypha" to designate those seven books which are "included" in the Catholic Bible canon and listed above (Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 and 2 Macabees). These seven books are not accepted by Protestants and are not found in Protestant Bibles. (It seems our friend above favors the Catholic version of the Bible and applies Luther's "lopping" to the whole of Christianity... interesting, don't you think?)."

What of the sixty or so Gospels that were eliminated when Luther was only a glimmer in God's eye? I've heard it asserted by two of my high school religion teachers (if it matters, one had a Notre Dame theology Masters, the other had a Doctorate in theology, though I'm not sure if he finished at Oxford or Harvard Divinity; they're hardly definitive, I admit, but I trust their degrees more than one, say, from Oral Roberts University, or Northwest Christian College) and by one of my college professors that at least two Gospels were removed for asserting that Jesus was married.

Furthermore, if it helps clear things up I would ask you to consider a few of the posts: namely, I advised Flash re: modes of behavior in instiutional religion; Lori abandoned our prior exchange to declare her separation from institutional Christianity. Thus far, there's nothing amiss.

But we know that many of the Christians, Lori included, like to separate themselves from the institution. This is fine. But most of us know that already.

But what, then, of the Bible, whose form was determined institutionally? How differently would you--or any of us, for that matter--view Jesus if it was canonically asserted as fact of faith that Jesus had a wife? If you knew that Jesus was married in the same way that you know other things about Jesus ... what are the implications? (I remind you, this is an example; what would the inclusion of anywhere up to sixty more Gospels do to our perception of Jesus--rather, as 60+ Gospels would get mighty confusing, what if a different canon had been set?)

I mean, really ... isn't the Bible institutional?

And I'm sorry if Christian heritage is nothing more than a ... what did you call it? ... mish-mosh of ideas. But I might remind you that your assumptions regarding people's state of mind and experience might actually be limited because, quite frankly, you've never looked at the universe as a witch, as a Satanist, as a Muslim .... oh, that's right, they don't matter because your God says they're wrong. (Well, even I find Satanism more than a little goofy--and I can say that from experience.)

So why are you Christian?

The general sense I get from your expressions of faith implies a very inward experience, nearly exclusively so. When you give consideration to enough versions of the "divine message" ... well, once enough people tell a different story that you have polar opposites and several shades of gray, the "divine message" begins to change its character a little.

That's the hard thing I discovered about Christian fellowship. On the one hand, I don't think Jesus wanted the flock to withdraw into themselves as individuals; on the other hand, my life could have become exclusively about engaging the ideas of my Christian brethren, which would present a new moral dilemma--what to do when someone else's divine message is wrong?

Christ did not intend for his flock to be individually alone in the universe. Furthermore, the "basic foundation" of Christianity is extremely subjective. But what to do when you perceive one of your brethren to be damaging Christ's divine message in his practice and his words? Do you leave him be, and allow him to continue his soul's mortal peril? Or do you engage him? If you engage him, is it a an exchange of principles to find the common ground? Or is it suddenly two people insisting on their version of the divine message?

Frankly, it seems Christian faith must be mish-mosh. I'm sorry if you truly prefer a blanched, applesauce version of the divine message, but it's a living process, no matter what name you give to God, and cannot be so without the mish-mosh.

But, let me reiterate, aside from your assumptions of my state of mind, there's much of value in your post. If I have little or no comment on your information regarding the Apocrypha, it's for two reasons: A) the transience of the canon that you document does actually serve a point about the contents of the Bible; and B) this is something to work from ... it's good stuff that we might be able to apply to other aspects of faith. It's actually the stuff I prefer.

Or, I could simply say, "Are you assuming I write in Palestine?" ( ;) )

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Lori,
Ok..PLEASE quit trying to tell me how I think or feel..etc.... I ABOVE all people should know, yes? YES! First, get this through your head.... I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT SIN....be it true or not. I DON'T CARE! So please..pleaseeeee get that thought out of your head...kick it out..

Also Flash, I've read stories of people who call themselves Christians who beat their children and frequent prostitutes. What's your point? How much money do you want to bet that Luca didn't test the spirits that she's with like it says to in the Bible just like you won't? I've got quite a wad....how much? How much do you want to bet that her "god" tells her that Jesus wasn't really the Saviour either? How much? I'd really like to quit my job, so let's wager big huh?
Isn't there a scripture in the bible that says something to the effect that God will not lead you astray? Welllllllll...if the aliens were such a big threat like you make them out to be...why didn't he warn her? Too busy with his own life to take the time out to do something as nice as that????? Gee...I mean...after all you are talking about the dude who is suppose to be the ONLY God...the only one who can save.....??? I don't get it.

TS,

Please consider this: It is this same "feel good" mechanism which is causing you to buy into what the aliens are telling you about "truth"... You want to believe that what they are telling you is true when, in reality, it is not.

I'm sorry...but I just don't buy it...
you know...you cannot say that you are any more right than I can. We both have our opinions. I believe with ALL my heart that I'm correct in what I believe...as you do the same with your beliefs..... Soooooo... we are at a stand still here.

This deceptive spirit knows where you have been and what condition you were in when it approached you with the big "lie" and it knew that you were at a spiritual point in your life where you would "want to" buy into it. You were a perfect candidate... that is why you were chosen by the master of deceit.
I was the perfect candidate?????? HAHAHAHA!!
yeah...ummmm sure..whatever you say *S*
Look, I am sorry...but once again I disagree...
TS, if you actually believe these are demons?? then ...they sure are going to an AWFUL LOT OF DETAIL, TIME, AND TROUBLE allll
to deceive me? I hardly doubt that! That makes no sense to me at all.




------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited January 28, 2000).]

ILGWAMH,


Ufo's (are demons)/(are controlled by demons)/(have demons inside of them). Take your pick. By demons I mean fallen angels. Ufo's seemingly defy the laws of physics. The most plausible explanation I've seen is that the force behind these things is extradimensional in its being.


Such a typical respones to fear of the unknown. If there are aliens could it be that they know how to manipulate something we don't in order to defy the laws of physics? No to rational don't you think?


Lori,


This board continues to confuse the heck out of me more everyday. I feel like all I do is tread water. Or I'm stuck in mud or something. It's really strange. Just thought I'd share.

Ask your self this, mind you this is not ment to piss you off, just to try to get you to see things from a different point of view. Is it this board that has you spining your wheels or your religus convictions?



------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

Lori,


The God of the Bible DOES love us unconditionally, as it states ALL OVER the Bible. What Bible have YOU been reading exactly??????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????

Generally, it's the KJV.

Let me quote this part again:


Unconditional love means that we are loved without limits, reservations, attachments, controls, provisions,
qualifications, demands, expectations, judgements, needs, obsessions, stipulations, clauses, boundaries, restraints, equivocations, regulations, confinements.

You claim that the God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament - right? I really don't wish to rehash everything we've already been through regarding the actions of the OT God - do you? I'm sure you remember as well as I do, so on that assumption, your God is basically saying, "I love you without limits, reservations, attachments, controls, provisions, qualifications, demands, expectations, judgments, needs, obsessions, stipulations, clauses, boundaries, restraints, equivocations, regulations, confinements, but if you don't submit yourself to my control and live up to my myriad, not to mention equivocal, demands, expectations and regulations, you will suffer my judgments and be confined to hell for all of eternity".

Isn't that pretty much the message of the Old Testament God? Please don't say that none of that matters - if the God of the NT is the same as the God of the OT, and God is unchanging, then this is pretty much his message.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

I would have to argue that there is no such thing as unconditional love. All love, even Gods...comes with conditions.

God asks that we follow the 10 commandments.
God asks that we be "born again".
If we fail these, especially the last...we are damned for all eternity.

Unconditionaly love can never hold up - for it to do so, would mean chaos.

Only those who want to "have their cake and eat it too" would believe all love is truly unconditional.

RickB,

Yes, to love this way would be truly, well, Godlike. Would it not?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

It MIGHT help to look at unconditional love this way:

There is a parent who loves his children unconditionally. He has sacrificed his entire life for them, not because he had to but, because he loves them. He has taught his children right from wrong, set a good example for them and has prepared them well to go out into the world on their own. He has shown them, by example during the time that they lived together, how to live in right relationships through love.

When the children were growing up, this parent cautioned them to stay away from the tempatation of certain evils... let's use illegal drugs as an example. He stressed the importance of remaining drug free. The children were taught that the use of illegal drugs could cause chaos in their lives and the lives of others and that indulging in such is not acceptable to their father and not welcome in his drug-free home. The children are well aware that their father loves "them" more than anything but at the same time, they know that he does not tolerate "drugs" in his home.

When growing up, some of the children heed their father's warning. Others succumb to the temptation and become drug addicts, thereby effectively destroying their own lives. The father does everything he can to help save his children from the ravages of drugs. He offers his life savings to send them through drug rehab. Some of them accept his offer and go through a drug rehab program while others reject his offer and continue to use illegal drugs.

Once they are grown and out on their own, their father's offer for salvation from drugs still stands. They all understand that their father loves them unconditionally and that "they" are always welcome in his home "provided" that they do not show up under the influence of or in the possession of illegal drugs.

If, when it is time to go home for the holidays, some of this man's children show up at their father's home under the influence or in possession of illegal drugs, the father will turn them away. Does he do this because he no longer loves them? No. He still loves them unconditionally, however, his home is a drug-free home and he cannot accept them into his home while they are under the influence of or in possession of illegal drugs. Since they did not accept his offer for salvation from drugs, there is no chance for them to be with their father for the holidays.

And so it is with God, His children, the kingdom of heaven and sin. God loves us unconditionally. He has sacrificed his life for us, not because he had to but, because he loves us. He has taught us right from wrong. He set a good example for us while he dwelled with us in the flesh. He has given us all the information we need and has prepared us well to live in right relationships through love.

God has cautioned us to stay away from the tempatation of sin. He stressed the importance of remaining sin free. God has taught us that sin causes chaos in our lives and the lives of others and that indulging in such is not acceptable to Him in his sin-free kingdom. We are well aware that God loves "us" more than anything but at the same time, we know that He does not tolerate "sin" in the kingdom of heaven.

Some of us heed God's warning. Others succumb to the temptation and remain active sinners, thereby effectively destroying our own lives. God has done everything he can to help save his children from the ravages of sin. He has offered His life for our salvation. Some of us accept God's offer of salvation while others reject His offer and continue to lead actively sinful lives.

God's offer for salvation from sin still stands. We all can understand that God loves us unconditionally and that "we" are all welcome in His kingdom "provided" that we show up in a sin-free condition. The only way to do this is to accept God's gift of salvation from sin.

When it is time for us to go home to God, some of us will show up at heaven's door under the influence or in possession of sin and God will turn us away. Does he do this because he no longer loves us? No. He still loves us unconditionally, however, God's kingdom is a sin-free one and He cannot accept us into His kingdom while we are under the influence of or in possession of sin. If we do not accept God's offer of salvation from sin, there is no chance for us to be with Him for all eternity.

As much as He loves us, God cannot be with sin... In the absence of salvation, our state of sin at the time of our death would separate us from Him for all eternity.

TS,
But...I just do not see what is wrong with some...notice I said some not all...of the things which the bible describes as sin...
I just don't get it.. it's too frustrating for one to figure out... I am just thankful I don't have to attempt at doing such.

Originally posted by truestory:
If, when it is time to go home for the holidays, some of this man's children show up at their father's home under the influence or in possession of illegal drugs, the father will turn them away. Does he do this because he no longer loves them? No. He still loves them unconditionally, however, his home is a drug-free home and he cannot accept them into his home while they are under the influence of or in possession of illegal drugs. Since they did not accept his offer for salvation from drugs, there is no chance for them to be with their father for the holidays.




I'm sorry, but I simply do not agree with this.
If my child turned up at my door and I could see that he was obviously addicted to drugs, then the most loving thing I could do for him would be to invite him into my home and give him as much loving and comfort as I could, even though it's supposed to be drug free, because the alternative, would be too much to bear thinking about.
You see, if somebody is a drug addict and high, then you wouldn't expect them to be able to make rational judgments, necessarily.
Therefore, you couldn't expect him to be able to follow your rules, because his mind would be 'out there'. In fact I would always forgive my child and kill the fatted calf for him, not seven times but seventy times seven. Because my love is unconditional!
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

AH HA!!! AH HA, AH HA, AH HA!!!! YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOOO BUSTED FLASH!!!!!


But...I just do not see what is wrong with some...notice I said some not all...of the things which the bible describes as sin...
I just don't get it.. it's too frustrating for one to figure out... I am just thankful I don't have to attempt at doing such.

Well, that's refreshing. Honesty is always refreshing to me. Now, maybe we can get somewhere. Do you realize that this is exactly what I've been trying to get you guys to realize for a year now???? When I've said that it's about getting honest??? This is it! Thank you Flash, this means more to me than you even realize. And the truth is, just as you've stated it, that it's just too difficult to think about, so you really just don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss? Denial is bliss? Would you like to take back the comment you made about it being Christians who are zombies? Because I think that it's safe to say, that it's the other way around for sure.

And just to point out, God DOES love EVERYONE unconditionally, regardless of where it is YOU CHOOSE to end up spiritually. God loves those who are lost just as much as those who are saved, and grieves for them immensely, more than any of us could possibly understand. I guess a comparison at our level would be the grief a parent feels when their child is killed. If that were not true, then Satan would lose his entire motivation. If God didn't love sinners, or if he didn't love those who were not saved, then Satan could not hurt Him by doing what he does to us. Do you see that?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

tab'


I'm sorry, but I simply do not agree with this.
If my child turned up at my door and I could see that he was obviously addicted to drugs, then the most loving thing I could do for him would be to invite him into my home and give him as much loving and comfort as I could, even though it's supposed to be drug free, because the alternative, would be too much to bear thinking about.

Well, most people who know about drug addiction know that offering a drug addict the opportunity to help themselves is the most loving thing you can do for them. (Just as God offers us the opportunity to help ourselves to the gift of salvation). The father's loving offer of rehab still stood and that is what would bring the most comfort to the addict in the long run. The alternative of the child continuing to do drugs to death would be too much for most people to bear.

If they're not rational and they're "out there" when they came by, then they would probably not even be able to comprehend your attempts at love and comfort. If they came by and they were not ready to accept your offer of rehab, then they probably didn't come by to socialize or eat... what they probably came by for was to beg you and the rest of your family for money to buy drugs.




[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 30, 2000).]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh man!!!!! Damn, I am busted!!
N O T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D


And the truth is, just as you've stated it, that it's just too difficult to think about, so you really just don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss? Denial is bliss?

First, I was talking about how some of the "sins" in the bible described just do not add up...ummm..I just do not see what is wrong with some of them. Does this keep me from wanting to have a relationship with God/JC...... NOPE! What does??????? My knowledge does...... pure and simple. ;)



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Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Truestory,

First there is still a condition. So it is not unconditional.


As much as He loves us, God cannot be with sin... In the absence of salvation, our state of sin at the time of our death would separate us from Him for all eternity.

Say my only sin was to not accept God, now when I die I will be cast away from God for all eternity. Sounds a bit overly harsh for an all loving God don't ya think? At some point in my eternal damnation if I chose to accept God I would still be ass out. Come on it smacks of more then just proper punishment. It has all the overtones of hate.




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All I know is what I understand. All I understand is what I know. :)

666,

There is a condition for entering the father's drug-free home... "YOU are loved and welcomed into my home. Illegal drugs are not welcomed into my home." There is no condition which would stop the father from "loving" his children. The father does not stop loving his children, regardless of their choice.

The drug addicted children who refuse the father's offer for rehab and who show up at their father's "with" illegal drugs simply cannot be with their father in the drug-free home. The father still loves them.

You see God's loving sacrifice and offer of the "gift" of salvation as hate? Let me assure you, there is noone alive whose only sin is not accepting God... We are all sinners in many ways...

It is in this life that we make the conscious decision to accept God's loving gift of salvation from sin or not... to be "with" God or "without" God... for our benefit, God has lovingly made it very clear just how important that decision is... God has made it known to us that this is a spiritual decision which we make for ourselves for all eternity.

It almost sounds like you don't want to take God's Word about anything. It almost sounds like you would prefer to first be allowed to experience hell before deciding whether or not to accept God's gift of salvation to enter heaven...? Forgive me for using this example... From what you have shared, it sounds like you've had a taste of hell on earth already and it sounds like you hated it... rightfully so, I might add... as horrible as it was for you though, it was only temporary... think about it!

God does not stop loving us if we choose to be "without" Him. We simply cannot be "with" Him if we choose to be "without" Him. We are all "sinners" and God loves us just the same. The only thing that God does not love is our "sin" because it separates us from Him. Why does it separate us from God? Because God cannot be with sin. Therefore, if we are "with" sin, we cannot enter God's sinless kingdom of heaven where God dwells. In order to become "sinless" we must accept God's loving "gift" of salvation through Jesus Christ.

God loves us and WANTS us to be with Him. However, He is not going to force us to be with Him against our will. It is up to us.

Personally, I believe that we have all the information we need to make our conscious decision... and I see this as fair, just and loving.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 31, 2000).]

TS,
I'd like to add a comment about the father and his children who are on drugs. How do you not know that they simply came to visit their parents because they wanted to spend time with them????? Why does it always have to fall back on them wanting money for their "drug habit"?? Not ALL children are like that...further, some are quite the opposite. Now, the parents turn their children away all because they are not doing what they want?? Let me say this..the child shows up with no drugs ...they are just under the influence at the time... soooooo
basically the parents are saying..sorry..you are not being what we want you to be therefore we do not accept you nor you into our home??????? Well then...I'd say the children are better off without them...because rejection just sucks...you say the children are rejecting them?? NOPE, it is the other way around. So the children are better off getting tough and leave the parents behind....hey, if the parents can't accept them..why should they accept their parents???????

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Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

truestory,

Sorry to budge in, and I promise not to stay for long. But I did find 666's objection curious. After all, just how come damnation has to be <u>eternal</u>? Is a loving God simultaneously relentless? You mean he will let those who weren't saved suffer <u>forever</u>, and won't go easy on them even if they eventually repent and beg for mercy? This sounds a bit merciless to me. But then again, maybe it's just me...

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I am; therefore I think.

TS,
we could make another analogy, where the parents reject the child because of who the child has chosen to marry or be with, against the parents wishes.

The parent says, 'I love you my child and you are welcome back to the fold, any time you like. I'll buy you a new car, I'll pay for your holiday, I want to love you and I do, BUT you must leave the person you are with (love), because they'll be the ruin of you/they're the wrong race/wrong social class/wrong religion/badly behaved/not up to my standard/you chose them against my rules!

This kind of love just ain't unconditional, no matter how you look at it.
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Good analogy, Tab! I vote we go with it..so how bout it, TS?

Cheers! Tab - good one, that's what I was going to post until I saw your modification.

Another point - I know several drug addicts, some in my own family. Not all addicts are constantly high, and even if they are high, the do desire the simple comforts (such as dinner with a loving family). Thinking they're just coming around to beg for money is dumb, and an unfair generalization. If anything, you SHOULD invite "lost" family members to share a common meal with the rest of the family. Love and compassion, combined with a full belly, is a great door opener - most addicts don't LIKE being an addict, and will welcome a helpful hand, offered with love and no judgement - maybe not the first, second, even third time it's offered, but eventually, most will accept. By turning away from his children when they probably need them the most, I would consider this father to be a selfish and short-sighted man. This man seems to value his authority more than his own flesh and blood. A pitiful state of being, at least in my opinion.

Flash,

First, I did not say that I "know" that's why the person came home... What I said was "probably" in the context of discussing with tab' the mindset of someone who had a serious drug addiction and who, as tab' put it, was probably not rational and out of it...

Of course I know that not all children are like that and I never said that they were... If you are familiar with the mindset of people who have serious drug-addiction problems, let's say a high-dollar a day heroine habit, then you can be sure that first and foremost in their mind is getting money to buy their next fix. They could care less about anything else. In many cases, they will steal from their parents and other family members to get the money to buy their drugs.

But that is not the point... The original analogy was to explain unconditional love where the drug-free home which was prepared by the father is being compared to the sin-free heaven which God prepared for us. The adult child is not being rejected. The drugs are being rejected. God does not reject us, He rejects our sin and offers us a way to become sin free.

Yes, God is pure, dwells in a pure realm and rejects "sin" in heaven so that it can remain sin-free. Is this not God's right? God has also lovingly offered us the gift of salvation to become sin-free so that we may dwell for all eternity with Him in heaven. He also does not control us. We have the free will to accept or reject God's gift. Sorry if you see this as a bad thing!

In the example, if drugs were allowed into the home, it would no longer be drug-free. If sin was allowed into heaven, it would no longer be sin-free. The only way to keep heaven sin-free is not to allow "sin" into heaven. Will "sinners" be welcomed into heaven? Yes! God welcomes us all into heaven and we are all sinners. However, in order for heaven to remain sin-free, like God, we must also be free of sin before entering heaven. The only way to do this is to accept God's loving gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Boris,

At what point might you expect to repent?

It is in this temporary life where we are given the opportunity to consciously choose our eternal destination... to either spend eternity "with" God or "without" God... Both states are eternal. It is in this life where we make the conscious decision whether or not to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour... Our most merciful God has given us all the information we need to make such a decision... Why prolong it?

tab'

You could try making such an analogy, but I don't think it will work because the parent in the analogy, like God, "has taught his children right from wrong, set a good example for them and has prepared them well to go out into the world on their own. He has shown them, by example during the time that they lived together, how to live in right relationships through love."

I hope this helps.

TS,


Yes, God is pure, dwells in a pure realm and rejects "sin" in heaven so that it can remain sin-free. Is this not God's right? God has also lovingly offered us the gift of salvation to become sin-free so that we may dwell for all eternity with Him in heaven. He also does not control us. We have the free will to accept or reject God's gift. Sorry if you see this as a bad thing!
Sure he has that right.... but..ok, let's go back to the father and drug addicted children... So the father says no drugs no enterance... fine..so be it. BUT, why does
he have to send them to a place of torment?????? Would you do this to your own children, TS??? Be honest....would you really? All because they choose their own path???? How is that right??? How is that fair?????

Moon Cat,

Please see my response to Flash above... the analogy was used to discuss God's unconditional love for us while still being able to maintain a sin-free kingdom of heaven (drug-free home).

Not perfect, but I think everyone can understand the message.

Once drugs enter a drug-free home, it is no longer drug-free. Once sin enters a sin-free heaven it is no longer sin-free.

God's rejection of sin cannot be equated to rejection of the sinner... To the contrary, God has made a great sacrifice and has offered the great gift of salvation in order to enable sinners (all of us) to enter heaven.

Flash,

The "torment" is being separated from God and all the souls that became sin-free...
it is to dwell with the evil of all of the souls who chose not to accept God's great gift of salvation...

TS,
It speaks of hell as a hurting type of torment... How could one suffer from not being with God if they never were with him to begin with??? What would they be missing?
NOTHING.... Looks like everyone would be happy if it were left at that.... if need be I can post again the scriptures that speak of hurtful torment.

Flash,

Perhaps the hurt comes from the other sinful souls? Hell is a place of evil, you know...

Truestory:

As a general consideration, what, then, is a drug?

* "Once drugs enter a drug-free home, it is no longer drug-free. Once sin enters a sin-free heaven it is no longer sin-free."

Psilocybin? Tetrahydrocannabinol?

Caffeine? Alcohol? Nicotine?

Fine chocolate? (MAO inhibitors, other mood-altering substances; also caffeine) Peppermint and other "herbal" teas?

What I'm after here is that I understand the basic line you're drawing, but the idea of "drug" is arbitrary at best, calculated by political considerations at worst.

If marijuana became legal tomorrow, would the home be drug-free again?

When your earthly time is done, and the Spirit of Heaven instills God's peace and knowledge into you, or, rather, when your soul is divested into that holy oneness, what happens to the idea of "sin"? With the possibilities of heaven at hand, will you see the acts of sin in the same light you do now? Could Heaven, seen from "above" or "within", as such, be made sin-free? We can't take it with us, so why should we be taking our earthly, limited definitions?

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

TS,
SO you are saying that all who are in hell are evil?????????????????????????? :eek:
WHY would God find it necessary to send people to such a place?????? Why not some other place with no torment??? Could it be because he is trying to manipulate by fear???

Flash... All souls in hell are those still filled with sin (evil) because they did not reject their evil ways and did not accept the gift of salvation needed to become sin-free to enter heaven.

PS - God is not manipulating us by fear in any way. If I told you that jumping in front of a train moving at a high rate of speed would kill you, does it mean that I don't love you and that am I manipulating you through fear? God has given us life, love, the facts about eternal destiny and the free will to choose.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 31, 2000).]

So what about the second part to my question?
Why would God even WANT to send people to hell? Ok, you say that he doesn't want to..but according you the bible and christians..he made the rules....why not just send those to some place else?

Flash,

God's plan for eternity is that as many souls as possible dwell with Him in heaven. God sacrificed much so that this could be accomplished, gave us the knowledge to know the truth, gave us the loving gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and gave us the free will to accept or reject His gift. In the end, the final plan is that good be separated from evil... Sin-free souls (those that have accepted the gift of Jesus Christ) go to heaven. Sin-filled souls go together to hell. God told us all about our choices. It's a fairly simple concept. What other accomodations do you think God should have made for us?

A room with a king size bed and a hot tub? ;)

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 31, 2000).]

Hey.....now you're talking!

If all he cares about is people being with him... why doesn't he have a heaven Plan A and a heaven Plan B....
Plan A includes those who follow him...they get to spend eternity with him

Plan B is for all the rest who spend eternity
without him... why must it be a place of pain?????

Flash--

A little tidbit I just picked up from a book I'm reading about the traditions surrounding the idea of the Devil:

* Let us imagine a child and a grown-up person in Heaven who both died in the True Faith. The grown-up one, however, has a higher place in Heaven than the child. The child shall ask God: "Why did you give that man a higher place?" "He has done many good works," God shall reply. Then the child shall say, "Why did you let me die so soon so that I was prevented from doing good?" God will answer, "I knew that you would grow up into a sinner; therefore, it was better that you shoud die a child." Thereupon a cry shall rise from those condemned to the depths of Hell, "Why, O Lord! did you not let us die before we became sinners?"

* * * * *

This is part of the paradox, I think. Furthermore, does the omnipotence of God mean that It already knows (a la Calvin) what the sum of one's life will be? ("I have created you as you are, now I shall punish you for being what I have made.")

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Flash,

It's not two separate plans. God's is one plan with two options. (Geeze, as simple as it is, many people don't get it now. Can you imagine if He made it any more complex than that?!!!)

Why must it be a place of pain (torment)?

Evil is evil... There are some who exercise their free will to choose it over the goodness and the love of God. I guess it's because they thirst for evil more than they love God! Maybe to some people, it's not considered pain or maybe they enjoy pain? Maybe some souls actually enjoy evil and pain...? I know of at least one that does... He will be the one reigning in hell.

truestory,

So what you are saying is: damnation is eternlal, simply because it is? Like that was the only choice available to the allmighty? After all, if God sets all the rules, surely he could have made it something other than eternity without pardon? Look at human societies: we have our penal system, but being fallible and all, even we can still conceive of the concept of "pardon".

You ask "why prolong it?" Well, it seems to me that a truly loving and merciful deity would always provide a way out for its "children", no matter how badly they manage to screw up, or for how long. You claim that such indeed occurs while we live. What is the fundamental reason to deny a similar lifeline after we die? (assuming, for the sake of argument, that afterlife is for real...)

After all, God has all eternity and an infinite patience. Why should it matter to God that some sinner took all 100 trillion years after their death to finally realize the truth, and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior (as you so often put it)? Why not welcome a wayward child back into the fold, why not be able to forgive <u>any</u> of that child's past transgressions, including refusal to be "saved"? Why are decisions prior to death somehow superior to decisions after death? Or does afterlife not include the ability to make choices or possess free will?

The "policy" you describe is not only a merciless one, but it even smacks of vengefulness.

And speaking of vengeance... Do you think God is capable of ever forgiving Satan, or is that particular vendetta too much to overcome even for the all-loving allmighty?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited January 31, 2000).]

Tiassa,

Exactly!! Their "logic" is so terribly convoluted, but they just don't see it!

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Tiassa,
ROFLMAO!!! Ok, ok, ok... I needed to hear that :D
Thank you for sharing Tiassa ;) Two thumbs up :)

TS,

Evil is evil... There are some who exercise their free will to choose it over the goodness and the love of God. I guess it's because they thirst for evil more than they love God! Maybe to some people, it's not considered pain or maybe they enjoy pain? Maybe some souls actually enjoy evil and pain...? I know of at least one that does... He will be the one reigning in hell.
Well, it seems to me the one to watch out for is your God...not "satan".
Matt 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Some souls actually enjoy evil and pain????
Ohhhhh, TS...come on! Just because a person does not choose the path of God does not make that person evil! The only evil I see is that from God.... with his so called choice of free will... the "Do it my way or you will suffer for eternity"
This is a display of unconditional love??
Oh..I get it... I love you..but, because you won't play MY way..I'm gonna make you suffer!
Ha, and you wonder why people have a hard time understanding the bible????

Originally posted by truestory:
tab'

You could try making such an analogy, but I don't think it will work because the parent in the analogy, like God, "has taught his children right from wrong, set a good example for them and has prepared them well to go out into the world on their own. He has shown them, by example during the time that they lived together, how to live in right relationships through love."

I hope this helps.




Ok, let's say the parent has been perfect and has managed to instill into the perfectly behaved child a comprehensive code of moral ethics and common sense.
The child can still be led astray, one way or the other and love is still usually blind! has the parent never been a child themselves, don't they know that it's in our nature to pass through rebellious phases and that the errors of our ways usually become apparent to us at some point in our lives where we have reached sufficient maturity through the practice of our 'free will'?

I will elaborate on my analogy. Let's assume that the parent did indeed reject the child and the child went off and followed their heart, breaking all contact with the parent because that's what the parent wanted. The years pass and the parent becomes old and infirm.
On hearing of this, the child who although having hurt for most of their life, had never actually stopped loving their parent, goes to them and offers to take care of them until they die (by their own free will and on their own terms).
Should the parent concede and allow their child back into their home, or would they rather die in squalor and pain with their pride still in tact?

... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

tab'

And just how does such a human condition compare with God's ability to love unconditionally while at the same time, maintaining a sin-free heaven?

I guess what I am asking is...Can you make the analogy to man's relationship with God in this case?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 01, 2000).]

Flash,


Ohhhhh, TS...come on! Just because a person does not choose the path of God does not make that person evil!

Actually, a person's sins are the evil. If a person rejects the gift of salvation which would cleanse them of their sins, then they continue to be filled with sin for all eternity. Therefore, they remain in an evil state and dwell with all others who chose the same fate.

Salvation is not mandated Flash. It is not God's way. It is the way TO God... and it is one of our free choices.

Flash,


Tiassa,
ROFLMAO!!! Ok, ok, ok... I needed to hear that
Thank you for sharing Tiassa Two thumbs up

I see that you are continuing to allow yourself to jump on that "feel good" wagon. :(

TS,
So what is the difference between a person who sins and is not a christian and a person who sins and is a christian????? What you are saying is God is playing favorites...his chosen over us poor lost fools? Ok, I'm really not trying to be a smart butt..it's just that it doesn't seem right. I KNOW you said that Jesus some how magically washes sin
away... but.. if a christian sins..they are no better than the one who isn't a christian and sins...the actions are STILL the same, yes?

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited February 01, 2000).]

Searcher,

"Their" logic?


Exactly!! Their "logic" is so terribly convoluted, but they just don't see it!

Who is it that you are attributing the logic to?

I see that you are continuing to allow yourself to jump on that "feel good" wagon.
awwwwwww, TS... I didn't mean anything bad by it..ok?

Yes, Flash, sin is the same for all of us.

The sins of those who accept God's great gift of salvation are washed away so that they become in the sin-free state needed to enter heaven.

Those who don't accept the gift remain in the state of sin.

That's the difference.

Well, TS..don't you find it odd that God/Jesus claims to be the only way? Don't you find it odd that people have to follow the "rules" in order to be "set free"?? Do you not think this sets one up to be weak?
Not making decisions on their own..etc...??

Boris,


So what you are saying is: damnation is eternlal, simply because it is? Like that was the only choice available to the allmighty?

What I am saying is that afterlife is eternal. It is in this life that we choose whether or not to spend eternity with God or separated from God.

You do have a choice, you know.



After all, if God sets all the rules, surely he could have made it something other than eternity without pardon?

God did make it something else, Boris... He made available eternity in the fellowship of love with Him in a sin-free heaven.



Look at human societies: we have our penal system, but being fallible and all, even we can still conceive of the concept of "pardon".

Yes, Boris. God knows we are fallible. That is why God came to show us the way to Him, that is why He suffered and died on the cross for us, so that we could be pardoned if we so chose. All we have to do is ask with a sincere heart.


You ask "why prolong it?" Well, it seems to me that a truly loving and merciful deity would always provide a way out for its "children", no matter how badly they manage to screw up, or for how long. You claim that such indeed occurs while we live. What is the fundamental reason to deny a similar lifeline after we die? (assuming, for the sake of argument, that afterlife is for real...)

Boris... salvation is not a way "out." It is the way TO God. It is in this temporary life that we either choose to love God or not. Once we decide, we are either with God or separated from God for all eternity. Salvation does not come from fear of punishment. It comes from loving God who is all good.


After all, God has all eternity and an infinite patience. Why should it matter to God that some sinner took all 100 trillion years after their death to finally realize the truth, and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior (as you so often put it)? Why not welcome a wayward child back into the fold, why not be able to forgive any of that child's past transgressions, including refusal to be "saved"? Why are decisions prior to death somehow superior to decisions after death? Or does afterlife not include the ability to make choices or possess free will?

Again, Boris, it is in this life that we choose our eternal destiny. Once we choose salvation in this lifetime, because we love God, we enter heaven and do not know evil. We are totally separated from it. Once we reject salvation in this lifetime, because we do not love God, we enter hell and do not know the love of God. We are totally separated from God.


The "policy" you describe is not only a merciless one, but it even smacks of vengefulness.

If you see God's great and loving sacrifice and offer of salvation, for us to be able to enter a sin-free heaven (which is filled with love only and free of the evil which most of us despise) as vengefulness, then so be it.


And speaking of vengeance... Do you think God is capable of ever forgiving Satan, or is that particular vendetta too much to overcome even for the all-loving allmighty?

I believe that Satan has already made his free-will choice to be separated from God for all eternity. God still loves Satan, but he must be separated from Satan's evil ways.

Do you think that Satan could ever bring himself to love God, Boris? I think Satan is too proud, too in love with himself and very much enjoying his temporary reign here and looking forward to his eternal reign over evil.

I think that last question is a mute point, because I believe as God told us... what's done is done in Satan's case.

However, I can tell you that one who has previously allowed themself to be deceived, who has done the work of Satan on this earth... If they eventually see the error of their ways and come to love God and accept God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, God will forgive them and they will be saved.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 01, 2000).]

Truestory,

I don't mind you use that example at all.

It left me sitting here trying figure out witch of the ten commanments I broke. I haven't found one. So then witch sin am I guilty of and don't go to the original sin stuff. I can not and will not be accountable for some one elses actions. I am seriously trying to find something I did in my life that is a sin. Sure I've made mistkakes in my life, I drank before I was 21, smoked before I was 18, but what did I do that merits burning in hell? I don't know!

Back to unconditional love...
If his love was unconditional it wouldn't matter when I chose to repent, in this life or after I die. If his love was unconditional he would forgive and accept me into heaven with out thopught of when I chose to repent. That is unconditional. Lets take a step back just a little further. Why would he need to make us imperfect (with sin) the ask us to repent for his mistake?

You could try making such an analogy, but I don't think it will work because the parent in the analogy, like God, "has taught his children right from wrong, set a good example for them and has prepared them well to go out into the world on their own. He has shown them, by example during the time that they lived together, how to live in right relationships through love."

When has God spent time with any of us. A father (idealy) teaches his children right from wrong, helps them learn, and most importantly loves them. When Has God done this for anyone. Abandoning his children leaving only a book that no one can determine if it was from him or not doesn't do any one a dam bit of good. Should God be brought before CPS for abandoning his children?


------------------
All I know is what I understand. All I understand is what I know. :)

Wow, truestory, you amaze me the way you wiggle out of questions without actually answering them! Do you sell used cars, by chance?? Can you teach me how to do that? That's a great trick!!

Boris, man, you got your work cut out on this one. I'll tell you why God won't allow pardon...nope, damn. Can't think of a good reason. Maybe because he set the rules and the rules are the rules. Shoot. Guess I'm not as good at slippery answers as truestory is. (shrug)

MoonCat--

I thought it prudent to speak up. I wanted to let you know that there's no point in calling TS on her evasions. After all, as she has stressed to me many, many times at this forum, she has never, ever evaded, sidestepped, or failed to answer any questions asked of her.

Or was that "questions asked in a way that doesn't offend" her? :confused:

Something like that. And she's bound by God not to lie to you about such things.

Of course, I'll believe it when Jesus buys me a beer, but I thought I could put the good message out there: "Always wear helmets when crashing headlong into walls." (This message has been brought to you by the National Brain/Thought Safety Trust.)

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited February 01, 2000).]

Tiassa~

I know, I know. :rolleyes: But I couldn't resist. Kinda like pushing on a bruise, I guess. (Shrug)

Mooncat--

I'm reminded of the first "Simpsons'" Christmas special, when Bart got a "Mom" tattoo:

(poke)
"Ow, quit it."
(poke)
"Ow, quit it."
(poke)
"Ow, quit it."
(poke)
"Ow, quit it."
(poke)
"Ow, quit it."

So, if we all get really annoying, how big a spatula will God spank us with? (Don't make me turn this car around, or so help me, I'll end Creation!) :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Originally posted by truestory:
tab'

And just how does such a human condition compare with God's ability to love unconditionally while at the same time, maintaining a sin-free heaven?

I guess what I am asking is...Can you make the analogy to man's relationship with God in this case?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 01, 2000).]


In this case, the child is the person who could not reconcile God with its hypocritical perpetrators and the hopeless naivety of the 'God' concept in the light of modern science and with the highly ambiguous and subjective proof of it that is available.
So they reject it.
However, the person may do something on occassions which is so generous, selfless and loving that even God (if it existed) would have to take notice!

But it wouldn't make any difference to their destiny anyway, so you don't have to reply to this.

TS,


Who is it that you are attributing the logic to?

Christians in general.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

truestory,

Judging by the latest string of posts, it seems you have managed to cultivate quite a reputation on this board. What with all the talk of brick walls and helmets, it's beginning to sound like you are giving your own cause a black eye. Perhaps you should dwell for a moment on your reasons for being here, and whether your behavior is truly reflective of your claimed motivations. Certainly, as a spokesperson for Christianity you are not creating a favorable impression.



If you see God's great and loving sacrifice and offer of salvation, for us to be able to enter a sin-free heaven (which is filled with love only and free of the evil which most of us despise) as vengefulness, then so be it.


But one perl, out of a steadily growing treasure trove... Apparently, to everybody else on this board it is glaringly obvious that such is not what I "see". But what I do see is that you seem to have played the village idiot one time too many. And something else I see, is that a time may not be too long in coming when you are going to find yourself summarily ignored by everyone. After all, why waste time and energy on someone who would feign interest and participate in a discussion, only to deliberately sabotage it?

I doubt your God would appreciate his proponents facing challenge by feigning a chronic misinterpretation syndrome. Especially espousing Judaic faith, just whom do you think you are fooling?

Being slippery may be temporarily advantageous, but over the long run the slime tends to build up.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

666,

What your sins actually are, I cannot tell you. Only you know for sure. However, I can tell you that unless you are God in the flesh, you have sinned... And that is what keeps us out of heaven - sin. Heaven is a sin-free state. Any of us who are with sin, who have not had our sins washed away by the saving grace of Jesus Christ, cannot enter heaven because it is a sin-free place.

Please note: Just because God is not presently with us in the flesh does not mean that he has abandoned us. Do you believe that a parent which has passed physically from this world has abandoned you?

MoonCat,

Apparently, you perceieve that I did not address the issue of God's "pardon"?

Based on this, rather than asking me to clarify, you seem to prefer to choose to attempt to ridicule me in a negative manner. I must say that this seems to go directly against what it is that you are preaching about your pagan holiday.

In my response to Boris, I addressed God's pardon in the following manner:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at human societies: we have our penal system, but being fallible and all, even we can still conceive of the concept of "pardon".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Boris. God knows we are fallible. That is why God came to show us the way to Him, that is why He suffered and died on the cross for us, so that we could be pardoned if we so chose. All we have to do is ask with a sincere heart.

In other words, God offers us total absolution (total "pardon") through His great gift of salvation...

Any questions?

tab'


However, the person may do something on occassions which is so generous, selfless and loving that even God (if it existed) would have to take notice!

But it wouldn't make any difference to their destiny anyway, so you don't have to reply to this.

Oh, I think I'll respond anyway...

Sure, tab' - God takes notice of good deeds... God came to show us how to serve each other and how to live in right relationships through love. God has also made it very clear, however, that we do not get to heaven through our good deeds. As many good deeds as we have done in our lifetime, we have also sinned.

We must be sin-free in order to enter heaven. A good deed does not wash away sin. The only way to be in the sin-free state needed to enter heaven is to accept God's loving gift of salvation.

truestory,

Oh, just a couple of questions.
1) why is absolution offered only before death (the obvious answer being that the dead do not contribute money to the church, but you of course will not accept that.)
2) why God had to die in order to be able to offer absolution (he seemed to cope just fine before Christ.)
3) if being pure means having no recollection of what sin is like, then just how much of oneself is left upon entrance into heaven? On the other hand, if the inhabitants of heaven have full recollection of their sins, they are not qualitatively different from the way they were before they were "absolved". So, where does God's need to "purify" sinners come from?
4) Once again, you have managed to summarize a part of your religion. The primary question (which you continue to evade) -- is <u>why couldn't God do better than this</u> -- if even someone like me can come up with a better policy toward sinners. (and please don't say that God's policy is perfect merely because he is God.)

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Searcher,

Thanks. That's what I thought, I just wanted to clarify...

Let me say this, please... Just because a non-believer presents such statements, even if they insinuate in a stereotypical manner that it is Christian logic, it does no make it so (it does not mean that it is true).

Boris,


The "policy" you describe is not only a merciless one, but it even smacks of vengefulness.

It is apparent to me that this is what you see... apparently, you refuse to acknowledge the great and merciful gift of salvation, "total absolution," which our most loving God has offered to all of us.

Yah, truestory, I do have a question!

You say I'm ridiculing you, well, I'm pointing out your tendancy to avoid the question, and I'm not the only one who sees you doing it. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it's the truth I see before me.

My question is this (basically the same question Boris posted that you didn't really answer) - "Why does the post-death pardon not exist?" To give you credit, maybe you didn't understand the question and your slippery answer was accidental. But I didn't give you credit the first time around because you give those slippery answers all the time. Was I wrong, did you misunderstand Boris' question? Or did you deliberately give a non-answer to that question? If the second is true, then I withdraw my credit, and my "sorry".

Let me know if my question is unclear, as well. I think it's pretty straight forward, so it should be clear, I think.

Tiassa~

:D

How is it that such a simple cartoon reflects so much truth?


Remember this one:
"mmmmmm, sacrilicious...." ?

truestory ~

Another thing I just noticed about your post that I'd like to comment on:

"I must say that this seems to go directly against what it is that you are preaching about your pagan holiday."

Hmm, I'm the one preaching now, eh?

Tell me, how much do you know about Imbolc? I'm curious. Really, how much? Just what I've said here, in a short little post? Did you read up on it ANYWHERE else before making that claim? Or are you just pushing buttons at random, trying to rile me up? LOL, if that's what you're up to, you'll have to try harder than that!

Contrary to your assumption, I was actually trying to poke a bit of harmless fun at you. (Yes, Fun, as in 'ha, ha, ha') And, as I mentioned, I am not the first one to raise my hand and point at your non-answers. I thought you had a tougher exterior than that. So though it may "seem" to you that I am ignoring my own holiday by being mean to you, let me assure you that your assumption is incorrect.

Additionally; how again do you define "preaching"? Giving history and facts on a holiday, in a separate thread, addressed to nobody in particular, accompanied by a well-wish for any who cares to read it is "preaching"? I'm confused here.

Boris,


1) why is absolution offered only before death (the obvious answer being that the dead do not contribute money to the church, but you of course will not accept that.)

Maybe you choose to believe that it has something to do with giving money to the(?) church, however, it has been explained many times on this board that salvation has nothing to do with good deeds, reciting prayers, giving money to a church, etc... (There are many Christians, including myself, who do not attend a church of bricks and mortar). Salvation comes through our acceptance of the lovingly offered saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Additionally, I answered this question which you previously posed (but which did not have the comment about giving money to the church). Here it is again:


Once we reject salvation in this lifetime, because we do not love God, we enter hell and do not know the love of God. We are totally separated from God.

Like the soul in heaven that has no concept of sin, the soul in hell has no concept of the love of God... Therefore, they no longer have the same level conciousness that was afforded them in this lifetime to even be able to ask God for forgiveness. Again, salvation is not offered to one who simply fears punishment. It is offered to those who love God and have consciously accepted his great and loving gift of salvation.


2) why God had to die in order to be able to offer absolution (he seemed to cope just fine before Christ.)

For milleniums, God had promised salvation so that souls of mankind, that had turned so vile, could finally become fit to enter the sin-free kingdom of heaven. We were incapable of getting to that state ourselves... Part of the reason for this was that mankind was incapable of understanding just how much God loves us and just how much He wants us to be with Him. God came to help us, to demonstrate His love for us in the "flesh" which we understand... in the same physical form that we, as humans, are familiar with and could comprehend. God gave up His own human life for us, the life that mankind holds so near and dear and the life which mankind mistakenly deems most important... In essence, it was necessary for God to die in the flesh for us because we comprehend a physical world in the flesh... What God demonstrated for us, on our own terms was this... "I love you so much that I am willing to give up my life for you." By doing so and then by means of the subsequent resurrection, God demonstrated that it is not this life which we should be concerned about keeping... that there is indeed a life after death available to us all... that it is in this life that we either choose to accept or reject God's love and enter into the afterlife with Him or not. He came to serve us, to make it "easier" for us to come into a sin-free state. Prior to that, there was nothing that man could do on his own that could possibly bring him to the sin-free state needed to enter heaven.

Now that we have been given the loving gift of salvation, simply by accepting this gift, like Jesus Christ, we too will be resurrected into the loving and sin-free kingdom of heaven to dwell for all eternity with our most loving God.


3) if being pure means having no recollection of what sin is like, then just how much of oneself is left upon entrance into heaven?

Everything is left except our sin, our recollection of sin or any future temptation to sin. By acceptance of God's great and loving gift of salvation in this life, we consciously decided to give that up for all eternity.


On the other hand, if the inhabitants of heaven have full recollection of their sins, they are not qualitatively different from the way they were before they were "absolved". So, where does God's need to "purify" sinners come from?

Inhabitants of heaven have no concept of sin.


4) Once again, you have managed to summarize a part of your religion. The primary question (which you continue to evade) -- is why couldn't God do better than this -- if even someone like me can come up with a better policy toward sinners. (and please don't say that God's policy is perfect merely because he is God.)

Once again, Boris, you equate disagreement with evasion. That is an erroneous conclusion most likely based on your prideful assumption that in your limited human comprehension you have somehow managed to convince yourself that you have a better plan than our omniscient God. May I remind you... just because your human pride might cause you to believe that your plan is better, does not make it so (does not make it true). I happen to believe that God's plan is better than yours. My conclusion is based on an analysis of God's "entire" plan which He has made known to us (not just one factor), which includes, among other things, God's great and loving offer of salvation which is so readily available to all of us...

I am humbled by the love, simplicity and pureness of heart with which God offers to us the great and loving gift of salvation.

MoonCat,

I indeed answered Boris' question directly. Twice now, as a matter of fact, since he asked the same question in a subsequent post. Perhaps you don't understand the concept (and I don't mean that in a negative way) or perhaps I could explain it better or differently. However, it is not and has not ever been my intention to be evasive or "slippery" as you "choose" to characterize me.

I will try to explain the answer to you also... If you don't agree with it, that's fine. If you don't understand it, I'd appreciate it if you would simply ask "me" to clarify.

The acceptance of salvation is the act of entering into a mutually loving relationship with God. It is a "conscious" decision which we make of our own "free-will" based on our "love" for God... It is what God and heaven are about... "love."

A relationship which is motivated on one side by a "desire" to "escape" hell, whether it is a motivation which arises in this life or once we are in hell, is NOT a "loving" relationship.

That is why it must be made "consiously" of our own "free-will" in "this" lifetime based on our "love" of God.

Please let me know if I have explained this clearly or not.

Truestory~

Well, that's more of an answer...

So riddle me this: why is it then that we are asked to take this all on faith. Why cannot there be the "waiting room", and you get to meet God face to face before you decide what to believe. We're being asked to make a decision before being presented with any solid facts. I know, I know, Jesus came to earth to fix all of that, but as you can plainly see, that didn't work. Why is it that upon death, I can't go and hear the dirt straight from the horses mouth before I'm cast into a burning pit? Why don't I get a chance to at least experience the "Love of God" before choosing? Even if hell is never brought into the picture, you get a chance to meet God, see what a nice, loving father he is, and then choose to be with him eternally. Instead we get this fun game to play - who is right?, who said what?, what does God really want?...ad nauseum.

Let me draw another analogy to help clarify what I'm saying here:

You are given a choice, do you want to eat the blue food, or the green food? And that's all the information you get, but once you choose, that's all you're going to get is either the blue food or the green food for the rest of your life.

You aren't allowed to taste it, smell it, see it, or even know for sure there IS a blue food or green food, but you're being asked to make that decision RIGHT NOW, you can never change your mind, and whatever you pick is what you're stuck with.

There are other people who have made that choice, and some are telling you that the blue food is the best one, that the green food tastes terrible and burns your tongue. Others are telling you that the green food is ACTUALLY the one, and it's the blue food that is acrid.

So, what do you pick truestory? You want the blue food or the green food? Pick now, but keep in mind, if you pick wrong, there's no going back, no changing your mind, no chance AT ALL that you can make the choice again.

Wouldn't you much rather at least get a sniff at the food before hand? Or even better, maybe a taste? Wouldn't you ask for those things? Are those requests out of line? Wouldn't someone forcing those choices upon you without giving you a real basis to make a decision just be playing with you and/or being cruel? Especially when they could easily give you a sample of each.

To me, it seems like this is not so great a thing to ask for. Especially if you're asking it from a supposedly all-powerful and loving father.

Well, MoonCat, I've been in God's "waiting room" myself. What "waiting room" were you in when you decided to believe in gods and godesses?

Yes, MoonCat... Jesus did come to earth, He did teach us how to live in right relationships through love, He was persecuted, He was crucified, He did die for us so that our sins would be forgiven and He rose on the third day to demonstrate the reality of salvation which is an afterlife in fellowship and love with God. These facts were prophecied, observed and recorded over thousands of years for our benefit.

The "horse" as you put it, already came and gave us the "dirt" that you are looking for. His Word was recorded for your benefit.

What are the solid facts which brought you to make a decision to believe in gods and godesses?

The analogy doesn't work because it assumes no information - it ignores all of the documented information available to us concerning Jesus Christ and God's great gift of salvation.

I have a real basis for making my decision, MoonCat. What's yours?

As evidenced by your decision to practice witchcraft, surely you can see that God is not forcing a specific choice on you...?

As I'm sure you know by now, which ever color represents God's well-documented offer of salvation is the one I pick.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 02, 2000).]

Mooncat--

Incidentally, did you hear that Maude Flanders, on "The Simpsons" is apparently gonna die? But that's beside the point.

As yet another side-note, I promise to stop piping up with that kind of dumb commentary in the middle of debates.

I liked your "Waiting Room" bit, and wanted to throw a couple of comments at you about that and the blue/green food.

As to the waiting room ... I don't recall seeing your handle around at the time, but I used to have the following paragraph as a signature:

"Religion isn't dead either. The AntiChrist will have access to computers, television, radio, and compact disc. If he walks among us already, the chances are that he has a walkman. I just hope it's not Christ himself, disillusioned after two thousand years in a cosmic sitting room full of magazines and cheeseplants, turned malignant and rotting in despair at the way his message has been perverted." (Robyn Hitchcock, 11/1987)

Makes me think of job interviews ... after all, what happens if Jesus is having a rough time with the accountants when you arrive, fifteen minutes late due to lackadaisical, angelic bus drivers? (We always say my brother will be late to his own funeral :cool: )

And I wanted to give a couple of words about the blue/green food ... do the people telling you how good the food is ... do they have an interest in the outcome of your decision? After all, when you ask the register-jockey, "How's the Big Mac today?" is he really going to brush off his golden-arch emblems and say, "Actually it sucks today"? In the end, it might actually be all about market-share.

Of course, if it's bad enough for long enough, will that Syndrome kick in (Stockholm ... Munich ... Beirut ... I can't pick the name off my tongue right now; that captor/captive romance thing). I mean, if I was forced to eat 7-11 hot dogs every meal of every day, I might actually develop an psychospiritual bond with the darn things; the metaphysical fear that 7-11 "alleged meat products" equal life. And the mustard would make me offensively flatulent, too :o

Or is it better than Fugazi? What is the taste of a Steady Diet of Nothing? :cool:

* * * * *

Truestory--

I'm sorry, but this really gets me:

* "The analogy doesn't work because it assumes no information - it ignores all of the documented information available to us concerning Jesus Christ and God's great gift of salvation."

* "I have a real basis for making my decision, MoonCat. What's yours?"

* " ....which ever color represents God's well-documented offer of salvation is the one I pick. "

Now, I realize you really don't understand the idea that your fact is faith in the sense that other things aren't. Certainly there is a leap of faith required to believe anything. But the simple fact is that the above statements only reflect the truth as you wish desperately to be. To paraphrase Jeffrey Russell, it is your own limitation that you wish God to conform to what you desire It to be. And in order for God to be what you want It to be, you must accept some of the most fanciful aspects of your faith as absolutely true. It isn't that we must hold God in our hand and feel its weight, as we might a piece of lead; rather, it's just the simple idea that if we accept your version of "well-documented", and accept those documentations as unquestionable fact, well, then, thank you ... I've found God and it's name is Cujo.

And right now I can ask the guy who wrote Cujo what he meant ... which means I have a better shot of establishing a rabid Saint Bernard as God than I do proving the Bible. Frankly, the only reason you have this faith at all is because the nearly two-thousand years preceding your birth were filled with hateful atrocities devised in the name of Jesus and executed toward an Imperial goal. I mean, we know that some Christians arrived on the American continent within the first couple centuries after Christ. But look what happened to the myth? It got buried amid Quetzlcoatl and other stories until some polygamist had a "vision" and received the Word. Your faith is predetermined by military triumph, economic scheming, and propaganda ... all the factors of your life must eventually consider the history that brought said factors to bear. And the problem with that is that the message of faith is lost amid the chaos of a two-millennium slaughter. Most non-Christians recognize the place of the Bible among religious texts; however, to take it as literally and directly as you demonstrate in your posts seems to defy its potential.

And we know you're not responsible for the crimes of the past. However, you are responsible for perpetuating them with blind faith.

So I hope you're good with the Holy Braille, but unfortunately nobody knows where that translation is. You're stuck with those blind interpretations--notions of fact as ill-conceived as a modern political platform--until you choose to open your eyes and uncover your ears. See with your heart, and listen to what the universe whispers to your soul. Otherwise, you're lost in your delusions of truth, inspired by a God you cannot know, and therefore cannot truly trust, and left to stand on an island shouting strange, nonsensical words to a world that's tired of listening.

So, even though I'm quite sure you think you've been through this before:

* What is the "well-documented", "real basis" by which you've made your alleged decision?

And I'm hoping you have something more than a single anthology of religious folklore and speculation to support your notions. Not that there's a whole lot wrong with religious folklore and speculation, but it has to be part of something that can support itself. There are non-Christians at this forum who are demonstrating greater interest in disseminating the supporting materials for the Bible ... after all, they want peace as badly as anyone else ... they're just not willing to sell it short for a cheap promise. Such minds as these can be romanced, wooed, and seduced ... but they're not hookers, and they're not going to take the first reasonable offer pitched at them. It won't be cash that buys such souls, nor will it be promises that must stand only on the merit that such promises might possibly, at one time, have been made. Rather, it will be comfort in knowing that one did as much as they could to figure it out and never shut the door on God by saying there was anything that God could not be.

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

truestory,



There are many Christians, including myself, who do not attend a church of bricks and mortar.


But you do ascribe to the faith, don't you? After all, if you had the option of making up your mind after you die, then perhaps Christianity wouldn't be so, oh, wide-spread, shall we say, here on Earth? I was just pointing out the convenience of it all, the sheer pragmatic sensibility of "God's" plan when it comes to spreading Christianity. Coincidental or deliberate -- you decide. But damn convenient, to be sure.



Like the soul in heaven that has no concept of sin, the soul in hell has no concept of the love of God... Therefore, they no longer have the same level conciousness that was afforded them in this lifetime to even be able to ask God for forgiveness.
...
Everything is left except our sin, our recollection of sin or any future temptation to sin.


Two observations. First, you make it sound as if we are far less when we die than we are when we live. Either way, we lose a significant portion of who we are. Not much of anything to look forward to. Kind of a bum deal. Personally, I'd rather live forever, in that case. Secondly, by your own frequent admission, our lives are full of sin, as are our minds. I am afraid that once all of that is lost, there is not anything left to speak of. Certainly, if we loose all recollection of sin, we loose all recollection of our life on Earth. Which makes claims of relatives "watching over" you, or waiting for you in the white light, a bit ridiculous. Oh, those damned inconsistencies.



Inhabitants of heaven have no concept of sin.


I want to have a concept of sin! I'd rather know something, than be ignorant! Oh well, I guess that condemns me to hell, then. But I still believe that a brain is a terrible thing to waste. Especially for all eternity. But then you don't get to keep your brain when you die, so I don't care. Sweet oblivion, here I come!



That is an erroneous conclusion most likely based on your prideful assumption that in your limited human comprehension you have somehow managed to convince yourself that you have a better plan than our omniscient God.


Well, that was to be expected. Nobody's pride can compare to God's pride. (Oh, wait, isn't pride supposed to be a sin?) But my limited comprehension would dictate the following:
If I was in God's shoes, and I really wanted company, I'd want company that would be capable of doing something more interesting than licking my rectum 24/7. I'd want somebody who is equally informed, and capable of disagreement. I certainly wouldn't rob my company of any knowledge, or any part of themselves, just for the privilege of joining me. In fact, I'd teach them absolutely everything I know, including about the sins that I myself defined and established. (The sins which, by the way, came out of <u>my</u> sick little mind, and to which I am privy in a very unique way, and of which I therefore cannot claim myself to be "free.")

But then, were I in God's shoes and truly all-loving, then I would create a universe devoid of hate in the first place. Why breed torment? Why create hell? Why define sin? After all, in heaven sin is not defined anyway, and that's where you are personally hoping to spend all eternity, right? So why did you ever have to learn about sin in the first place, if as soon as you die you are going to forget all about it?

But then, if I were in God's shoes and nevertheless happened to, say, by accident, create a universe capable of evil (and was unable to undo my booboo) -- then at least I would give my little baby souls all the leeway I could think of -- in life and in death -- to find their way back to me (while it's unclear why I ever sent them away in the first place... And increasingly more of them as time goes by, apparently. I must be having a soul diarrhea or something. I mean come on, is 6 billion really healthy? I mean, talk about a crowd! Poor heaven! So much for being able to hear myself think...)

But then, were I truly in God's shoes, I'd find it very hard to understand why I would ever want to create some convoluted thing like the universe, which will only exist for an imperceptible blink of a moment within my infinite existence. If I ever had urges to do something like that, I'd create myself a nice shrink, and attend a few consultations.



I happen to believe that God's plan is better than yours.


Oh gee, I'm shocked. But then you are a bit biased after all, aren't you? Just a teeny-weeny little bit, perhaps? Though if I truly was in God's shoes, my first order of business would be to reduce myself to a mere human for all eternity. It's much more fun to be lost, than to have all the answers. But you are right, it's beyond my limited mind to understand how you can be so convinced of your particular mythology. In fact, I can empathise with your God to no greater extent, than I can with Osiris. So, as to whose plan is really best, I'll leave it to your expert judgement. Personally, I don't even pretend to try. After all, you know I am not gullible enough to take any religion seriously in the first place.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 02, 2000).]

Truestory~

You may have been in God's waiting room, but I've never gotten that invitation. Perhaps it's lost in the cosmic mail system?

Jesus came to earth...TWO THOUSAND YEARS ago. That horse has never clip-clopped his way past my landscape, so I've never heard it from the horses mouth. I looked for a horse, and found one - but it's a different color than the one you believe in. The record you speak of, which I assume you mean the bible, is so convoluted, twisted, chopped apart & put back together, and translated from translated translations that I don't see how anyone can understand that thing, really. I mean, sure, you can interpret it to the best of your ability, but you can't be sure 100% if that's even right or not.

So, no, truestory, I disagree with you. That horse has NEVER spoken to me, I have NOT received that information from anyone that wasn't a regular ol' human. When I say "straight from the horses mouth", I mean "STRAIGHT", not through some book that's been raped over and over through the centuries.

"no information" - well, see above. The information that I have is not consistent, nor trustworthy. Trying to wade through the bible is worse than reading the IRS tax law documentation!!!

And, yes, I do have a real basis for making my decision. The planet under our feet is about as real and solid as it gets. The path I follow happens to be one of the oldest paths there are, beaten down by many good feet way before your savior was placed on a cross. These are incidental to the reason I chose witchcraft, however. In fact, I can't really say that I am the one that chose witchcraft, it seems to be that witchcraft reached out and found me. I developed my own, independant view on how the world works. I began to feel like I was on the cusp of some kind of spiritual discovery. I meditated, and thought, and pondered what it could be. I couldn't figure it out, it was nothing I had ever come accross, anywhere. I lit a candle and asked for the powers that be to show me the path I was on. (Great opportunity, by the way, for your horse to tap me on the shoulder - but it didn't) I continued to light this candle, and would try to focus my awareness outwards, trying to sense...anything. And then I stumbled upon witchcraft, and just about melted when I did. It felt like I was home, I had found my niche, my place, my path. And this is something that seems to be common to the pagan experience. I have read my story over and over from many others that have found this same path.

You say you have had contact with your God, well I too have had contact, with my Goddess. No screaming demons flying at my head, She appeared to me in a dream, and was kind enough to speak to me that night. I didn't neccessarily like what I heard from Her (She gave me a bit of a lecture, actually), but I could not mistake Who I was speaking to. The power and love from Her was unmistakable. I have met the Mother of my soul, and She is very, very real.

Jesus/God, on the other hand, was mute, even when I opened the spiritual doors and invited anyone carrying the truth inside. This indicates to me that either he/they don't exist, or they don't care to speak to me. Either way, I feel no loss. I have the embrace of the Earth to warm me, I need nothing more.

And before I start waxing poetic about the beauty and light, love and power...lalalalala...

Nope, Truestory, you can't just say "whichever food is..." You gotta pick just one or the other, without any more information than that. You see, I am asking you to make the same choice Christians are asking me to make. I don't have the faith in the supposedly well documented :rolleyes: offer of salvation, nor direct communication with the diety you speak so highly of. I have lots of people, pointing to two different plates of food and telling me which one THEY think is the right one.

Maybe I can broaden the analogy a bit, let me go ahead and give you more information; there's a placard next to the blue food, and it says something. The handwriting is blurry and shakey, and there's some words mixed in you don't know what they even mean. But it seems to indicate that the blue food is the good one. Most of the people trying to convince you one way or the other are pointing at the blue food. But there's still no way to know 100% which is which. You have to guess, and hope you guessed right.

Do you go for blue, or green? I couldn't decide, so I went out and grew my own damn food. :) As it turns out, the food I grow nourishes me perfectly, I feel no need to go back into that room with the plates of colored goo and try to play a tricky guessing game. I'm sorry, this is sounding kinda mean, I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to make you see how I percieve your religion, and how I percieve my own.

Your religion might fit you perfectly, truestory, whether you changed to fit the faith, or the faith just happened to fit right the first time..whatever. Your religion doesn't fit me, however, and I don't think it ever will. Anytime Jesus or the Holy Spirit wants to drop by my place for some tea, they're more than welcome to stop on by, but until they do, I will follow the loving Mother that took the time to give me guidance and love, that speaks to me in so many ways. She will always be there for me, I have no doubt.

Heh, heh, on a sidleline, and it might either shock you or just interest you, but I do have a Catholic Rosary as part of my altar. :) It is the one my mother used to pray for me when I was hospitalized as a babe. She poured love and hope into it during those scarey years, then gave it to me when I got married. For 3 1/2 years, I just left it in my jewelry box, I didn't know what to do with it. It seemed sacreligious to hang it up or something (since I don't believe the little guy on the cross was anything but a man), so there it lay. Recently, I realized that it's not the symbol ON the rosary that matters, it's the symbol of the rosary - as a loving spiritual gift from my mother - that matters. So I hung it up above my altar, as a reminder of the love I also have right here on Earth. I am lucky, lucky, lucky enough to have two mothers that love me - a mother of my flesh, and a mother of my soul. :) What more could anyone ask for?

MoonCat,

Maybe I missed it but, what "waiting room" were you in when you decided to believe in gods and godesses? And when, exactly was it that they came to earth? And what was it that came directly from the mouths of these horses when they trotted by your landscape?

You see, there is nothing concrete for you to even "attempt" to interpret and you say that you can't decide what to believe without solid proof? Well, you have already solidly proved yourself contradictory becuse you have already decided what to believe based on "nothing" but what was made up in people's minds before God revealed the truth to us in demonstrable and physical manner.

(BTW - I understand the IRS tax code, too).

You found your gods and godesses at a time when your footing became unsure and you "stumbled" into them. Did you hit your head on a rock on the way down?

No, MoonCat, there are many of us who don't have to pick one of your colored foods nor grow our own because you "say" that no information is available or because you "say" that the information that is available is blurry.

There are many who have taken the time to read and understand God's "direct" message concerning salvation which you choose to ignore or to look at with an undiscerning eye.

There are many, including myself, who can see God in the physical realm of this universe... God, the true creator of those things in nature which you choose to personify as gods and godesses.

Those who have become more sure-footed and who can see the information that is available more clearly do not have to "settle" for the stab in the dark which you offer.

Truestory~

Yup you did miss it. :)

I was in no cosmic waiting room. I don't need one, because I'm not being asked to make any blind choices. Christianity, as far as I can tell, IS asking me to make blind choices. To to "un-blind" the choice, I theorized a "waiting room" where you get to meet God face to face would be sufficient.

They need not "come to earth" - they ARE the earth. They are the life spark that gives us our existance. They are the rocks, shrubs, trees, animals, the air, the water, the soil under our feet, the universe at large. Nothing?? You smokin' something??

Each time I breathe in, I cannot help but inhale a bit of the God and Goddess, I am made of the same stuff as they are, and so is everyone and everything. We are not seperate from the Dieties, we are merely a part of the whole that they also are part of. I was unaware of that relationship, now it has been made obvious to me.

And I do take your quote here to be a little offensive:

"You see, there is nothing concrete for you to even "attempt" to interpret and you say that you can't decide what to believe without solid proof? Well, you have already solidly proved yourself contradictory becuse you have already decided what to believe based on "nothing" but what was made up in people's minds before God revealed the truth to us in demonstrable and physical manner."

Nothing concrete? Heh, heh, heh, how about concrete? Concrete is made of earth, which is part of the universe, which is part of the whole... :) Concrete is my concrete proof, in a matter of speaking. LOL.

Based on "Nothing"?? I refer you to the planet under your feet, the progression of the seasons, the lay lines of energy spread over the earth, Stonehenge, the pyramids, true psychic experiences, holistic medicine, kirilian (sp?) photography, ad nauseum.

Not only that, but the fact that almost identical beliefs were spread all over the globe before Christianity came along and had to be forced down the peasants throats, with threats of death and torture on the earthly plane, and eternal pits of fire on the astral plane. How is it that so many people found the same truth?

And, "Made up in people's minds" - well, I present to you that Christianity is naught but the insane ravings of an illegitimate son of a peasant. You want to make assertations like that, go ahead, but be careful, those same assertations can be applied to Christianity just as well. Only difference is that your myths and tales are written in a single book, whereas mine were passed down orally through the ages.

Moving right along...

You are either misunderstanding me, or just trying to twist things around. I did not have unsure footing. My footing was as sure as could be, I merely asked that the path I was on be illuminates so that I might see where I was going. By "stumbled" I mean I typed the word "find me" into an internet search engine on a lark, just wasting time, and "stumbled" upon the Witches Voice webpage. Reading it was like reading my own writing. I also might let you know that typing those same words into the same search engine no longer pulls up that page. Goddess guiding my hands or internet glitch, either way, I found illumination.

You best watch out, you seem to be the one blindly running down a path - no rock has hit me on the head, but there might be one out there with your name on it. The fact that you even brought that up makes me wonder about you - are you getting nasty or what?

You seem to be also ignoring the fact that I opened the doors to ANYONE with the truth. So maybe you can ask God, next time you're chatting, why he was too lazy/disinterested/busy to drop in.

Boris,

What you did, was not to point out "convenience," you were insinuating that Christianity was motivated by money. Try to keep up with your own program, will you, please?


the obvious answer being that the dead do not contribute money to the church, but you of course will not accept that

The point is that absolution in this life is not motivated by money. Nor is it a "convenience" that God's Word needs to be spread in this life... It is "necessary" because, as explained, it is in this life that we make our conscious decision. There is a "reason"... I know it's difficult to understand if you limit your reasoning capabilities to the physical world only, but please at least try to consider the possibility that you might have a soul.

You can keep your concept of sin if you'd like, Boris, and continue to deny God if that's what you choose but... then you would remain ignorant with respect to the "love" of God for all eternity.




[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 03, 2000).]

Well, MoonCat, if you say you don't need a waiting room, then why is it that you seek one from God before you will believe?


...why is it then that we are asked to take this all on faith. Why cannot there be the "waiting room", and you get to meet God face to face before you decide what to believe.

Whether you were asked to or not, you DID make a blind choice. One much blinder than that based on the objective reality of Jesus Christ. You met "nothing" face to face. It is not the things of nature which God created that I refer to as "nothing." It is the gods and godesses which are "nothing" in the sense that they do not actually exiist.

You previously indicated that you needed solid facts in order to make a decision. The objective reality of Jesus Christ is a solid fact. You have developed a "faith" based on "nothing" but mere human concepts.

Passed down orally, huh? Oh, yeah, that's solid... no errors or interpretations needed there... about as solid as the game of telephone... :rolleyes:

I'd better watch out???!!! There might be a rock with my name on it???!!! ... Oh, is this your black temper showing again? Or, is this just a "continuation" of your nastiness???

No, I don't THINK I'm getting nasty... but, it wouldn't surprise me considering you and SOME of the others who are "prone to nastiness" have been hanging around on this board hurling your insults for so long.

What it was, was a "teensy-weensy" joke, MoonCat. Sorry if your sense of humor has left you once again.

Geeze, it's a good thing I didn't use the word "preach" in there somewhere, huh? That might have really riled you up! :rolleyes:

Truestory, can you smell what you're shovelling?? And you call me the nasty one? LOL, you're cracking me up. You remind me of the mean old lady that wouldn't let me get my baseball back from her yard as a kid.

I don't need a waiting room to meet my God and Goddess. They're right here with me, just fine, and I've met Her in my dream, face to face. YOUR God is the one that's too damn high and mighty to get his lazy ass off his cloud and visit me, even when I have invited him. Apparently, my Dieties aren't too busy to visit someone searching for the truth, whereas your God wants me to come begging on me knees for his forgiveness. :rolleyes: Sorry, begging isn't my strong point.

You talk about the reality of Jesus Christ - I think you must be dillusional. If you can imagine some guy who'se been dead for years is alive and well but then tell me that believing in the spirit of the living things around me is "nothing", ... well, I just don't know what to say to make you see how stupid that is.

Passed down orally, yes. But where do you hear me saying those are 100% accurate? Have you ever heard me say "Well since this fable says this and such, this is definitely the truth"? Everything I read I take with a grain of salt. EVERYTHING. Everything I hear, same deal. I listen, I look, I think, and eventually there before me, nestled amongst the coals is lying the diamond of truth. Within each myth, each legend, each tale of might, there is a bit of truth. Even your silly bible has some truth to it. I'm just not dumb enough to think that's the whole story.

As far as my black temper goes, man, you just don't get it, do you? Let me explain the rock thing very simply to you, since you didn't pay attention the first time around:

YOU are running down a path blind. There are rocks. You trip. You hit said rock. That's the rock I'm talking about.

THIS post right here is the ONLY nastiness coming from me. You're the one suggesting I've bonked my head on something, that I'm nasty, that I'm using my "black temper". I suggest you take a close look in the mirror.

And yeah, back to the preach thing, while you're slinging that stuff you're shovelling - how do you define it? You backed off of that one really quickly. You care to justify it, or take it back? And I'm still waiting for you to enlighten me about the Pagan holidays, you seem to be some sort of authority on them.

You know, I try to discuss this with you in a rational way, but I back you into a theological corner and you resort to name calling. You have to go calling my faith "Nothing". What's the matter, did you run out of answers, and now we're resorting to insults? Why can't you answer the questions?

See what you've done, you done and got me all ticked off. Yes, truestory, you are bearing the brunt of my full black temper. Oh, how terrible, huh? Guess I forgot to mention I'm an awful lot tougher on myself than anyone else - I expect more out of myself than I do anyone else, and my "black temper" is called that because I know my general outlook is "white", and the temper I do have irks me, and stands out by comparison.

So let me muster some more anger....ah, there we go,

shove it.

Hey, that felt good!

MoonCat,

The true spirit of the living things around you is God. He is right in front of your face. He was here in the flesh at one point in history and will come again.

Noone has ever seen your gods and godesses because they don't exist other than in your mind. You are the one who is stumbling on the rocks, MoonCat.

As much as you would like to paint yourself as being a nice person who is open to everyone's beliefs your latest post was just a continuum in your string of nastiness. No, yours is not AS consistent as others here, but it is evident to those who you attack with your (ahem) open mind.

You really WANT to get into the semantics of not practicing what you are "preaching"? I just took that post as another one of your angry outbursts... another fleeting fancy... If that's what you really want, though, sure... I'll explain it to you shortly.

Unlike you, I did not insinuate that you were stupid... I did not call you names... I did not call your deities names... I did not say that your faith was nothing... what I said was... the gods and godesses are based on nothing BUT mere human concepts. They are not real and never have been. They exist ONLY in your mind.

If what I have said to you in this thread angers you, you might want to put yourself in the shoes of the Christians whom you have actually been ridiculing here and calling names for some time now in your kind, open-minded way.

Just because you say that you are harder on yourself than you are on other people does not make you the kind and open-minded person that you claim to be. If telling someone to "shove it" makes you feel good, then you know your true spirit, MoonCat.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 03, 2000).]

Mooncat,

I have to butt in a little here...the god and goddess that have visited you "face to face" in your dream are the very same beings of light that Flash thinks are aliens. They can change the way they look to fit their purpose, silly. I mean duh, don't you think that would be pretty easy for a spirit to do? Well, whether you do or not, it is well documented that they do. Angels that is, fallen ones in this particular circumstance. The reason that Jesus hasn't flown into your bedroom and slapped you upside the head (what I refer to as Flash's "aol's and the antichrist laser light show") is because it says right in the Bible that God is NOT the author of confusion. Guess who is? Could it be......SATAN????!!!! And you are mocking TS's mention of proof of Jesus and a personal relationship that she and I both have with Him. I don't need a flippin' laser light show to know Him, and neither does anyone else. The reason that you haven't gotten to know Him is because you didn't ask with sincerity in your heart, OR that you did ask, and you didn't listen to or like His answer. To really know Jesus, you have to be willing to give your life to Him. That's just another truth in the Bible ya know. You actually have to want the truth and the relationship and be willing to make a serious effort. Like the meaning of your life effort. If you pray for a relationship with Jesus, and for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and truly repent and believe unto Him in your heart, then He will be there with you. It takes a while to get to where you are able to pray and receive an answer. It's not as easy as just laying there asleep doing nothing til some spirit comes and kidnaps you. You actually have to try and you actually have to listen. Jesus talks to me all the time. What do you think about that? Oh let me guess, you think I'm imagining it right? Right. He's real. He really talks to me. And I'm not crazy. Do you know how I know it's Him? Cause He always tells me things that I wouldn't have ever thought of myself, and usually, it's a correction in my thinking or behaviour in some way, so it's not always easy to hear, but it's the truth, and that's what I asked for. To describe Him, He is like an old, old friend, a best friend that knows you better than anyone, but you just can't remember being with Him. You know that you know Him, and the emotional tie is like that of a parent and child. Very loving and VERY emotional. You realize that you knew Him before but can't remember it, and then you also look back on your life, and realize that He has been there with you the whole time, you were just blinded to Him for some reason, like you were looking in every other direction but His. It's extremely trippy. But's it's as real as the set of 36DD's I'm carrying around. What do you make of that?

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Lori ....

And I will butt in here to remind you that Jesus may well be one of those little flashes of light that some call aliens and some call spirits.

Furthermore, as it was once noted that the Devil's greatest trick might be convincing humanity that there is no devil ... well, what if he convinced billions of Christians that he was Christ? After all, as we note throughout this argumentative process, there is a massive amount of evil historically associated with Christian practice that, apparently, has no relationship to Christianity.

What could possibly cause that ... that the evils of history would be regarded as disconnected from the concept from which they stem? What would excuse its own philosophy by declaring it good, by committing the evils of history and then claiming them true and right because they are not representative of God?

Could it be ... Satan? Hey, then you can have your cake and eat it too; you can worship what you think is God and Christ, because of reasons you only believe are right; and the messy things we call evil don't have to be directly of God's doing.

Twinkle, twinkle little star. How I wonder who you are. Is it ... Jesus?

It works both ways, you know.

abracajesus,
Tiassa :cool:

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

MoonCat,

Here is the discussion you requested concerning preaching:

First, let me say that I don't necessarily see preaching as a bad thing.

In general, preaching is the deliverance of moral or religious "instruction" to others either in writing or speech. An example follows:


The Goddess is young again, and the God is a child. As he grows, so will the seeds you have planted, so best be sure you have planted seeds that you actually wish to have grow. Now is the time to throw out any seeds of anger, jealousy, resentment, and negativity.

Now, here is the example which I used to point out that you were not practicing what you were preaching:


Wow, truestory, you amaze me the way you wiggle out of questions without actually answering them! Do you sell used cars, by chance?? Can you teach me how to do that? That's a great trick!!
Boris, man, you got your work cut out on this one. I'll tell you why God won't allow pardon...nope, damn. Can't think of a good reason. Maybe because he set the rules and the rules are the rules. Shoot. Guess I'm not as good at slippery answers as truestory is. (shrug)

Contrary to what you preached to others...


Now is the time to throw out any seeds of anger, jealousy, resentment, and negativity.

It seems like you decided to keep those seeds and replant them the very next day regardless of what you told others to do. At one point, I believe you even indicated to someone that you just "couldn't resist"... something about "pushing on a bruise" I believe? Which one of the bad seeds does that stem from? Anger? Jealousy? Resentment? Negativity?

As far as what I know about pagan holidays... I've read enough over the years... what can I help you with, specifically?

Truestory--

Your sudden need to be holier than the rest of this forum reminds me of British-Irish negotiations regarding the Northern Counties.

Specifically, if we look at the actions of the British government ... well, even in my lifetime, the most heinous abuses of power have occurred, and been justified simply because the offending government was the British government. We could look back to Black '47, when over a million Irish died because: A) the British forbade Irish tenant farmers any other crops but potatoes, and B) British settlers were growing wheat, and exporting the crop to London for cash and goods. And then Ireland rebels, and the whole world, still dazzled with the sparkling British empire, upon which the sun never sets ... wonders why the Irish are rebelling. It amazes me, even today, when the aggressors--who are losing--get to make demands regarding peace: In order to take part in these "peace" discussions to end the violence, you must end the violence and render the peace process unnecessary. And then, suddenly, the aggressors are portrayed as the victims because the belligerent IRA won't trust the proferred olive branch without suspicion. Think about it: they steal the land, steal the money, kill the sons, and profane the daughters ... and then they wonder why the imperial subjects are unhappy.

You know ... I asked you once if there was a similar argument over what happens to the water in a baptism as there was in the communion. I still remember your ... uh ... response, or so you called it: "Are you assuming I take part in the communion?" That was either rude or stupid. But the point of dredging that, the least unkind of your evasions and abuses, to the surface is to remind you that we, the non-Christians, can say, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." And we can make what we will of it.

You, on the other hand, O sheep of Christ, are specifically directed: "Let (s)he who is without sin cast the first stone." Or some combination of those words, depending on which translation you decide is definitive.

And so you go on, knowing smugly that you will be forgiven. Because all you have to do, apparently, is believe in Jesus. But, by everything you've chosen to offer as expressions of your faith ... you do not believe in Jesus. Well, okay ... you think you do.

But part of the idea of a confession (alas, God is in your heart, thus your conscience confesses with every pulse) is to identify and then correct the problem. Does this make sense? (Forgive me, O Lord! for I have sinned ... and I plan to do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again ... hey! this forgiveness stuff is pretty damn cool! :rolleyes: )

Thus it seems you are, truly, worshipping Jesus in name only. After all, it's apparently too tough of a job to even try to worship by your acts. Oh, that's right ... nobody else understands how correct your interpretation of Jesus is.

If you really think people are that out of line, you might want to shake it off and take a look at what is inciting the behavior you find distasteful. I know when I've ticked people off, and I usually know why. You, however, don't seem to need to care, for after all, you've got Jesus to take care of you.

Wake up, smell the manger. Give some honest consideration to how you express your relationship with Jesus, and maybe you can stop taking the Lord's name in vain.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited February 04, 2000).]

truestory, I'll have to come back to you, I want to address this first:

Lori~

Butt in any ol' time. :) Okay, your quote:

"Do you know how I know it's Him? Cause He always tells me things that I wouldn't have ever thought of myself, and usually, it's a correction in my thinking or behaviour in some way, so it's not always easy to hear, but it's the truth, and that's what I asked for. To describe Him, He is like an old, old friend, a best friend that knows you better than anyone, but you just can't remember being with Him. You know that you know Him, and the emotional tie is like that of a parent and child. Very loving and VERY emotional. You realize that you knew Him before but can't remember it, and then you also look back on your life, and realize that He has been there with you the whole time, you were just blinded to Him for some reason, like you were looking in every other direction but His. It's extremely trippy. But's it's as real as the set of 36DD's I'm carrying around. What do you make of that?"

In response, let me tell you the details of my dream.

I was on a grassy plain, and it was night time. There was trees to the left and to the right of me, so I was in a sort of corridor between the trees. Directly in front of me was a big tree, maybe an oak. It had no leaves, and it was very cold out. I walked towards this tree, since I could see it very clearly. It began to take on a luminescent silver glow, like the moon was somehow behind it or something. As I drew nearer, I began to relax and feel warmth on my face. I got about 3 feet way, and felt completely encased in a warm, secure bubble - it surrounded the tree and I had gotten close enough to be included. Instantly I knew WHO this tree was. (You know how you just KNOW something in a dream sometimes?) I opened my mouth, I wanted to ask questions. But She didn't really give me a chance. She asked me if I knew who she was. I said, "yes mother". I could tell she approved of me, I could feel waves of tenderness coming and wrapping around me like a big hug. When she spoke, it was in my head, not an audible type sound (there were cricket sounds and frogs I could hear audiby, it wasn't a silent dream). I asked her for wisdom. I told her I wanted to learn more than what I knew. Then she told me that I was like a chattering monkey. She told me to be still, and to listen more and ask less. She told me that I already had more knowledge than I thought, and that if I would just be quiet I would figure things out. She told me it was foolish to argue religion, since ALL paths are the true paths, including Christianity. I didn't like all of what I heard, she told me more stuff that's too personal to share here, but let me tell you, this was not just an ordinary dream. She made no bones about it, she told me EXACTLY how it was.

I admit, I haven't been taking her advice very well. You still see me here arguing, though I think I see why she told me to knock it off, it's not doing me any good. I tried to straighten out my eating habits a bit, but I do have a sore throat that's persisted for about 3 days now. I've meditated quite a bit lately, I'm trying to listen to my soul, but it's tough to do.

So, Lori, what do you make of that? If my Goddess is the same "light being" Flash sees that you guys seem to think is the antichrist, why would She tell me that Christianity is just as valid as any other faith? She stuck up for Jesus better than any of you have, in my opinion!! Hearing that from the "lips" of my Goddess is more convincing than anything else I've ever seen.

And I know exactly what you're talking about - that warm "coming home" kind of feeling. She is a part of me that I had lost, and now I have found Her. :) Thanks for reminding me.

Alright, I'm at work, but truestory, you're next! :)

MoonCat,

I very much appreciate you sharing your experiences with me. Very much. I know that this stuff isn't easy to talk about in this atheistic scientific perverted world of ours, but I'm a freak just like you. ;) Only I'm a Jesus freak. :)

Would you tell me about how your goddess explains my faith? Could you also tell me the major differences between yours and mine (beliefs that is)? Maybe even a list of similarities and dissimilarities. Sorry, I know I'm asking for a lot.

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

truestory,

Maybe I am being a bit too concise in my insinuations. Let me expand a little. First, modern religion is indeed motivated by money and politics. Second, the premise of this imminent choice that must be made before you die is not targeted specifically at coaxing donations. Primarily it is meant to convert. It is a tool. A very crude and very obvious tool (and apparently, quite effective). Which makes it so damn convenient to be part of "God's" word. As to the effectiveness of the tool, a simple demonstration is yourself. You have internalized this myth so deeply, you can no longer consider it as a myth. And it's doing wonders keeping you from considering alternatives and refusing to perceive the many weaknesses of your own position. You are one poor brainwashed individual. For what it's worth, you can have my pity in exchange for your "love".

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I am; therefore I think.

Boris,


Maybe I am being a bit too concise in my insinuations. Let me expand a little. First, modern religion is indeed motivated by money and politics. Second, the premise of this imminent choice that must be made before you die is not targeted specifically at coaxing donations. Primarily it is meant to convert. It is a tool. A very crude and very obvious tool (and apparently, quite effective). Which makes it so damn convenient to be part of "God's" word.

When we consider organized religions as bodies "social," then yes, many churches are motivated by money and politics. However, when you consider the many individuals who have chosen to accept God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ on a personal "spiritual" level, who are not part of the bodies "social," then the motivations of money and politics are lost.

As far as an individual receiving the call to spread the Word of God so that as many souls as possible can be saved, then yes, in a way, you could call the hope that someone else might accept God's great and loving gift of salvation as a hope that they might "convert" (change for the better spiritually). God's Word is the tool, I disagree with you about the crudeness part, but yes, you are right in that it is very effective. God purposely made it that way.

What I don't understand is how you interpret the sacrifices of so many spiritual individuals who are not motivated by money or politics, who sacrifice so much in their own personal lives as a service to others so that they too may be saved as "convenient?" Reject it if you choose, Boris, but the motivation in the case of many individuals is "love."

Now let's look at your position and the position of others who believe as you do, Boris. What are your motivations for spreading your words in an effort to "convert" others to your way of thinking? If it can't be love, then what is it that motivates you? The tool that you use, your own words, is much cruder than those of God and cannot ever be as effective as God's Word. The way I see it, it is very "convenient" for some people such as yourself to reject God's Word for various reasons.

That God's Word is more effective than yours does not mean that I have not considered alternatives or that I have become brainwashed, Boris. Do you think that you are the only one capable of reasoning? If I were to suddenly see things your way, someone could just as easily say that I was brainwashed by Boris... do you understand what I'm saying?

You say that by accepting the objective reality of Jesus Christ that I am internalizing a myth. Well, Boris, I could just as easily say that by rejecting the objective reality of Jesus Christ that you have created your own myth.

Boris, as do many others, I see your pride. It comes across as a fatal flaw as a matter of fact. Your tactic has consistently been to attempt to personally belittle those who think differently than you do. Although God might have given you a great gift of intellect, Boris, please try to use it more wisely and please try to remember that such a gift has also been bestowed upon many others... Yes, even some people who don't believe the way that you do.

truestory,

The words "objective reality" appearing in the same sentence with Jesus Christ, are not doing wonders to make your point. In fact, they are making mine: you had internalized a myth.

This is not to say that there is no historical validity to Jesus Christ. But certainly, there is no theological validity. Matters theological are not "objective reality". So don't be upset when I 'belittle' you for claiming they are.

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I am; therefore I think.

Lori~

I don't mind at all!

I didn't really discuss Christianity per se with Her. I moved on to other things that were bothering me at the time, and didn't really dwell on it. Her comment was basically that it is just as valid as any other religions - I can only theorize what that means, I haven't had another opportunity to speak to Her since that one lovely dream.

I have theorized elsewhere (can't remember where, but it's here somewhere) that perhaps each theology is correct for the person that believes in them - I believe in reincarnation, so upon death that's what happens to my "soul". You believe in heaven/hell, so upon death one of those will be your destination. Ooh, I think I had a little topic going called "many faces of God" or something like that where I talked about all of that. I'm really not well today, so if you can't find it, I'll go back through it again, but I'm just not up to it today.

I have a sick, heavy heart today and am just trying to distract myself here, so be nice to me today, okay? :)

As far as the similarities between our two faiths, that might be kinda hard for me to list. I am only so familiar with Christianity in general, and even less familiar with your own personal beliefs, and I don't want to assume too much. I think I'm pretty safe if I stick to the basics though.

Like the golden rule, that is something common to just about every faith, in some form or another. In Wicca it is the main basis of it..."An' it harm none, do as ye will" to me (at least) is very much the same message as the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (forgive me if I've misquoted it a bit, I don't have it in front of me). Basically, it obliges you to think of the consequences to others before you act.

You know, I'm sitting here and I realize I can't even list all 10 of the commandments. Maybe we can start there - do you want to list them for me and I can tell you which I think match up to my beliefs and which don't? That seems like a pretty basic place to start, yes?

Sorry, this is a pretty lame answer so far. But, I'm feeling pretty lame right now anyway, so maybe that's okay. :)

MoonCat,

Sorry, I couldn't help reading about your sick and heavy heart today. :(

I truly hope you feel better soon. :)

truestory~

Thank you, and you know what else? I think I owe you an apology, much as I hate to admit it.

I've been pondering this a lot lately, I really am not the inflamatory person I seem to be on this board, hard as that probably is to believe. I re-read some of these last few posts you and I have been slinging back and forth, and I think we both need to shut up a little. :)

I came to the realization that I'm experiencing something totally new: religion. I'm not used to defending my spiritual side, I'm not used to listening to it or trying to understand it in the way I'm doing it now. This causes a lot of uproar in my brain - I'm trying to teach my logical mind to let go a little bit, and have faith in my own experiences. So when you pop off telling me that I haven't seen what I have seen, that what I experienced is non-existant or what have you, well, I have no shell or armor to take it gracefully on. It hits me directly, raw nerves and the like, and affects me way out of proportion. I need to achieve balance before I should be debating, I think that's what the Goddess was trying to make me understand.

So, I'll try to not take you so personally. I don't think you're TRYING to dig into me so badly, so I shouldn't react so defensively. I apologize for being such a bitch lately, I am not myself right now.

Truth to be told, I don't think I'm going to be hanging around this area so much. Life is going to hell in a handbasket (to borrow an expression) and I can't handle even the miniature attacks right now. I don't want to go into my problems, but let me just say my parents have gotten much worse, and things are beginning to be life-threatening. I can't just stand aside, I must get involved, and that pretty much uses up all my reserves. I need to take that advice I was given by a very wise woman indeed - I need to shut up and stop being the chattering monkey, reacting to each thing before I take the time to ponder it.

Hopefully, I'll be able to stick to my resolve. I don't think I'll stay away from here entirely, I've grown rather fond of you guys (even you truestory :) ) and want to keep up on how you are all doing. I'm just going to try to stay out of the arguing a little better. I have to trust that the Goddess knows what She's talking about. :)

Lori - I still want to go ahead & compare & contrast our respective faiths. I just need to keep in on a "debate" level and not have it disintegrate into "arguing" - so help me do that, okay? Otherwise, I'm going to loose my mind, even worse than I already have. :) Thanks, girl, I know we can get along.

MoonCat,

I am so sorry about your family situation. I must admit that I sensed something might be going... Couldn't put my finger on it though... Thanks for sharing. I promise to keep it light... love, prayers and best wishes for a healthy outcome...

truestory

Hey MoonCat, hang in there babe and keep that chin up. I TOTALLY relate to your sentiments regarding this whole "getting religion" process, and also about how trying life can be sometimes. It just seems to be one thing after another. Focus on the joy and keep your intentions pure and you'll end up being able to sleep at night. Sometimes joy is hard to find, but it's in there somewhere. I owe you a post then...I'll be back. :)

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.