Anyone else noticing what I'm noticing? And why the blankity blank is it taking so long to get some flippin' helicopters into Africa?????!!!!!! Anyway.....La Nina, or La Tribulation? I'm sure you know what I think already, so I'll spare you the reading....

Ok, I'll sing instead....

It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it....
And I feel fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine. :)
(but only because of Jesus)

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited March 06, 2000).]

You're such a loony, but you're cute! :)

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I used to think I was weird...till I discovered Excoscience messageboards!

See? I knew you were talkin' about me in your sig! LMAO!

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Because the first world does not have a major financial interest in Africa. Sending in choppers is money down the drain. There`s no gain. Is this not sick and proof of who is the master of this world?

"There will be signs in the sky. There will be wars and rumours of wars. When you see these things, know that the time of my return is at hand." (my version)

Come Jesus.

Norway ( where i am from) just sent 30 million dollars down there to Mozambique. If every country did that.



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.Religion is for those who fear hell, Spirituality is for those who have been there.

Norway rocks!

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

There's something a little bit odd about this thread. Given your slant on things, you should've called it "Supernaural Disasters". Since, if they are natural, they don't mean squat in connection to the human race. (just can't keep myself from being the usual pain in the ass. :D)

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I am; therefore I think.

Stretch:

re: Wars and rumors of wars ....

I heard that quote in the movie, The Rapture. Fine, fine film. Excellent grasp of the depth of human faith, &c., &c.

But how hard is it for a prophet to figure out that there are/will-be "wars and rumors of wars" among human beings? I don't need to tell the future to see that.

However, I do believe you to be correct when you say the world has no major financial interest in Africa. So far, all the West can do is prolong and exacerbate the difficulties on that beleaguered continent.

And, yes, it will be very nice when Jesus comes again; heaven knows, Christ himself is what it will take to straighten out the mess the churches of his name have made.

After all, how much of that Western political structure honestly believes that it is motivated in the least by Christ?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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The whole business with the fossilized dinosaur eggs was a joke the paleontologists haven't seen yet. (Good Omens, Gaiman & Pratchett)

Hi Guys

Tiassa you asked: (you may have intended it to be rhetorical but I couldn't help myself)

"After all, how much of that Western political structure honestly believes that it is motivated in the least by Christ?"

Well I say too much. In Australia (where I'm from) we have too many christain's running the show, as a consequence we have unrealistic drug laws, prostitution laws...all of which could be made more workable and keep potential victims safe, i.e. the sex industry IS A REAL INDUSTRY and our christain inclinded pollies are playing see no evil hear no evil speak no evil....

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work to LIVE...don't live to WORK.

[This message has been edited by Rambler (edited March 07, 2000).]

Tiassa

Hi, yep it`s no great shakes to predict wars. This is so much part of the nature of man, that it would be pretty unnatural, if there was no conflict in the world. But some of us would like to leave this man-made chaos behind, so we turn to our God and Hope. And therefore quote that hope as we see it.

Being from Cape Town, South Africa, I`ve been following the floods in Mozambique closely on the local news stations and just from Cape Town alone the public and local government have collected vast amounts of food, medicines and other humanitarian aid supplies running into millions of Rands value. This was so heartwarming to me as it kind of does confirm the "good" side of human nature. Yet Mozambique, being a third world African administration with an inadequate infrastructure, is struggling to get the aid supplies distributed to the necessary regions. I think the least the West could have done was to help admin-wise to distribute the aid. South Africa has stepped in to fill this role. Being so close to this disaster I don`t think anyone really knows the scale of these events. They really are bad news, with thousands dead and large scale destruction of homes and farmland.

Other abnormal events which I would like to mention is the strange weather phenomena we`ve been having here in South Africa. We`ve had tornados !!! We`ve never ever had tornados in this part of the world! We`ve also suffered wide scale flood damage. And here in Cape Town we`ve had an incredibly hot dry summer with huge fires raging on all the mountains, thousands of hactares destroyed. Totally out of character.

But to move on Tiassa, I must say I`ve been reading the posts on this site for quite a while now and (I hope you don`t mind me saying this) your commentary in particular in various threads is really inspiring. You have a extremely individual, unbiased and deep understanding of the nature of man and his faith. Also the mysteries of the Universe you approach from a fresh angle, without Christian clubbing. This is appreciated, as I myself has been on a lifelong mission to discover the Truth and God knows it was/and is a struggle. But boy do we silly little humans need hope! The spiritual vacuum within the Western World (Christian)culture is pretty awsome as man endevours to fill his world with new cars, boats, homes cellphones and all the other material trappings of terminal blindness. And having achieved this, man thinks he has really confirmed his worth. So what? The only thing you take with you when you leave this world is your love, fond memories, faith and hope! And is that not part of the discovery of the Great Mystery ? The body that was driving a fancy car and wearing Gucci shoes is gonna rot right back into the soil. Maggots!
As William Blake wrote - "To see a world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wild flower. To hold eternity in the palm of your hand and infinty in an hour." I think that statement has more value than all the World Banks could ever hold.

Come Jesus!

Uh...from what i've seen God dosnt help people. Theirs been war and chaos ever since man was here, and it was much worse back then so stop saying the world's coming to an end.

Stretch--

Ah ... gentle Hope. How could I possibly overlook that? Please forgive me in that sense, as it sometimes seems that hope disappears behind a veil of enforced hopelessness. That's a little bit dramatic, I admit, but in the end I think it's an unfortunate knot of personal concern meshed with the finer points of faith.

I thank you for your kind words; of other points you've made, I cannot disagree to any significant measure.

The saddest thing is, though, that I'm not sure our material desires are the problem; I would assert that it is the arbitrary nature of our material lusts. One might crave something traditionally regarded as sinful, say, excessive sexual contact. But if both people are happy, and their material wealth allows them to move forward giving some currency of hope to the desperate, then I would not complain about celphones, expensive cars, or any of our material side. But it seems to be about keeping up with the Joneses, so that when the floods hit Mozambique, our greatest cultural sympathy is, "Damn ... sure glad that's not us."

I would like to assert something, though, toward the character of the weather, of late.... In the United States, we've heard some of our politicians switch from "greenhouse effect" to vague references concerning "the effect of greenhouse gases on global warming." For the record, I like the switch; I think we've crossed a minor temperature threshhold in a natural warming cycle. Unfortunately, it will get worse, perhaps for the rest of our lives. To the other, in the western US (as in Australia, though I'm unsure of how it affects Europe or Africa, or anyplace else not immediately bordering the Pacific) we put up with periods of El Nino and La Nina that, in my lifetime, are frequent and persistent enough that if these phenomena are deviations from the norm, I'm unaware of what constitutes normal. In our corner of the world, we're seeing a lot of weather effects from this so-called phenomena; it may actually grow more consistent as warming continues. But I blabber on.

I hope I don't sound condescending if I say, of your quest for knowledge: I wish you the best of luck, and anything I might offer in that process I will try to provide; you also have much to teach in this voyage, so please do not forget that and deny the world those gifts you've already accumulated. But, as with the Gucci loafers, you already seem to realize that it doesn't matter how stylin' you are when you're dead, I can only conclude that you've gotten a great stateroom from which you might watch a sea of miracles pass by on this grand cruise through the Universe. Enjoy it well, good Thinker.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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The whole business with the fossilized dinosaur eggs was a joke the paleontologists haven't seen yet. (Good Omens, Gaiman & Pratchett)

Tiassa

Thanks for responding, an update on the floods in Mozambique that I heard on the radio yesterday, was that the US has contributed a significant amount of Choppers and pilots to distribute food and medical supplies, as the great threat in the aftermath of this disaster is now disease – cholera, malaria, etc. due to the residing flood waters and the stagnant pools. Also Spain has given food and medical aid running into millions of dollars. This will help ease some of the distress of these poor souls. Once the distribution is sorted out.

As for the rest, thank you for your kind words, and I will try to be more active on this board, but my time is limited.

Cheers.

If you have form`d a Circle to go into, Go into it yourself & see how you would do.
(To God, William Blake)

Unicron,

From what I've seen, people don't ask God for help, nor want His help, nor even believe in Him to exist or that He could help??????? Where are you getting your information exactly? People start wars, people fight wars, people hurt and kill others, GOD DOESN'T HAVE ONE THING TO DO WITH THESE DECISIONS. If those same people where to know God, they would not do what they do. And if you think for one second that God does not provide peace and comfort and hope to those who are devasted by war, think again. He is always there for us who call on Him. Maybe you should call on Him. Let me guess, that's too much work right? Funny how it is that most people could give a rats butt about God until they're lying on their death beds or something goes "wrong" in their lives. If we all knew God and had a relationship with Him like we should everyday, there wouldn't even be so much wrong with our lives. God is not an EMT for you to call 911 for when things go bad. He is your Father, your Creator, your Saviour, and He is with you always. Look at Him. He is there. Don't blame Him because you do not want to make the effort.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

But then according to you, Lori, one would have to be a Christian before God consider it proper to help out. What about all the innocent victims through the ages who never ever even heard of your God?

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I am; therefore I think.

Lori,

What about all the Jews Hitler killed? 2-million people, burned, shot and slaughtered. They prayed to God, and asked for his help, many of them were good people. But they all died. God didn't help them. He is my creator but i dont see any proof on that. I could only go on faith, in which i do. I dont think it's possible to prove he created us, but like i said, i go on faith.

God does not cause these things to happen. And to remove the possibility is to interfere with someone's free will. I don't think that you realize that the Holy Spirit is on this earth and available to all of us who believe in it and ask for guidance from it, and the effects of it's manifestations are everywhere, and benefit even those who do not believe. But unfortunately Satan and his others are loose on this earth as well, and for those who don't realize what's going on are at the mercy of his deception. And like anything regarding cause and affect, there are manifestations of his influence that bite us all, believers and non. He gets to the best of us, though there really is no such thing as "the best of us", except for Jesus. God does help people who believe unto Jesus, He really does. He's helped me soooo much; you have no idea.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Also, something important to consider is how would we be able to learn the difference between what is right and wrong if we never have to face the consequences?

For example, would we have learned the lessons that hopefully most sane people have learned when reflecting on the horror of the holocaust, if there were no horror in the holocaust? How would we know that what Hitler did, his perceptions, his beliefs, his hatred and ego were sooooooooooooooo wrong, so hideously wrong, if it were not for the sufferring and death that occurred? God DID NOT influence Hitler's beliefs. Hitler did not look to Jesus in determining his beliefs and perceptions and thoughts. He turned to the only other influence there is, albeit one of many disguises. Had he turned to the Lord, the Holocaust would have never happened. Now ponder that for a minute.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

It's interesting how you mention the need for evil in order for us to be able to learn about it. I'd say it runs counter to your notion that one needs the Bible in order to know the difference between good and evil. Yet, it seems by your own admission you concede that the real sources of moral knowledge are reality and life. Just thought I'd point out yet another inconsistency in your beliefs.

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I am; therefore I think.

Boris,

Just thought I'd point out another "shallow dip" in your thinking....

1) Are you aware of the fact that there are many people who still to this day see nothing wrong with what happened in the Holocaust?

2) Are you also aware of the fact that the only way the Nazi's could be brainwashed into doing what they did was under the concept that we are nothing but animals? Jews were nothing but animals. No God. No worth. No souls. Survival of the fittest all the way.

3) If society teaches society, then why does society suck so bad exactly Boris? How long have we been at this? How much history of pain and agony and suffering do we have to write down and debate and rationalize and blame before we all actually learn something huh? You yourself have NO answers, and will not look to God. You are part of the problem, and you will never see the solution to the problem, because your assumptions are flawed, like in any math problem, it makes it impossible for you to get the right answer. If society teaches society, we're doing one HELL of a job at learning now aren't we? AND YOU JUST IGNORE THAT. As if it's not right out your window, or as if it's not all over your nightly news. To be specific, your views, that we are nothing but animals with opposable thumbs, that we are NOT more than the sum of our parts, that we just "grew" here without purpose, that there is no God that loves us, and that this society, our planet, our selves, and our children do NOT belong to God, but belong to us, IS THE VERY REASON THAT THIS SOCIETY IS IN ALMOST CONTIUOUS PAIN AGONY AND DESPAIR. Boris, fact is that it would be real nice if we were able to find the truth without God. I guess real nice because you would never have to really acknowledge the existance of pain and suffering or take any accountability for it. Maybe you could even learn to like it. But you prove to me that this world, this humanity, this society has done that, and I'll eat my shorts.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

First of all, when I said that "reality and life" are the sources of moral knowledge, I did not mean just the narrow context of human history. What I mean is that evolution has built a primate emotional apparatus that is a foundation for every last moral framework that ever existed amid the countless tribes of Homo Sapiens. This built-in machine provides us with feedback to our behaviors and experiences, and through associating this feedback with observations of events in our life, we develop moral frameworks.

Next, onto the critique of your last post.



1) Are you aware of the fact that there are many people who still to this day see nothing wrong with what happened in the Holocaust?


Sure. And there are many Jews today who see nothing wrong with what's happened and is happening to the Palestinians. And until relatively recently, in fact for at least 17 solid centuries since Christ alone, no denomination of the Judaic faith ever saw anything wrong with racism or slavery.

This is not because people can't understand the Bible, or have no "personal relationship with Christ". No, it is because people are in their vast majority incredibly irrational, with religion being only the tip of the iceberg. Irrationality leads to all sorts of mob mentality, of which wars and holocausts are merely the most atrocious manifestations.

Note that atrocities persist in any culture. This is because the inborn emotional apparatus is not fine-tuned toward prevention of atrocity, but merely toward maintaining tribal cohesion and proliferation. Thus, it in fact encourages conflict between tribes. Such behavior is routinely observed among many other social apes as well. Incidentally, this is why it is so "natural" for us to sequester ourselves into groups, and pit "us" against "them". That's why it is so natural for us to demonize our enemies, and regard them as subhuman.

However, this does not prevent good cohesion <u>within</u> a tribe, where adversarial or unreciprocal behavior is actually actively discouraged both by individual emotional apparatus, and by the social dynamics imposed by the said mechanism interacting among many individuals within a tribe.

Given this discussion, my proposal is that the only efficient barrier to violence is a unification of all humanity into a single tribe. Only when we regard all other humans on earth as members of our extended family, will there no longer be such a tendency for atrocity. This includes not only eradication of nationalism and union of all Earth countries and cultures into a single country and culture, but also social equalization, so that there are no sharp distinctions between the haves and the havenots, the males and the females, the heteros and the homos, etc.



2) Are you also aware of the fact that the only way the Nazi's could be brainwashed into doing what they did was under the concept that we are nothing but animals? Jews were nothing but animals. No God. No worth. No souls. Survival of the fittest all the way.


Now, given my response above, it should be clear that the reason the Nazis were able to brainwash their people into atrocities toward Jews among other peoples, is because of the existence of tribal boundaries. Only when it is possible (and allowed by the society) to define "us" vs. "them", can such brainwashing occur.

Now, given the view that there are no souls, it should also be obvious that there is no afterlife. Given that, there is no point of making any kind of sacrifice in the course of aggression for the sake of the country, the race, or in fact anything at all. Starting a war and risking death becomes just a downright stupid idea. Under atheism, your life is all you've got -- and you would be a real moron to risk losing it over anything other than actually defending it against assault. So in fact, as you can see, atheism leads rather directly to pacifism (with the exception of violence only in self-defense). Incidentally, atheism also would work to prevent violent crime -- since imparting violence on others places one under risk of possible retaliation. So in fact, under atheism, peace and unity make for a vastly preferred state of affairs.

"Survival of the fittest" that you mention is the notion of social Darwinism. As I've just argued, it is actually inconsistent with atheism. But you should make a note that similar activities have occurred before, and are occurring even today, in totally religious contexts. For example, the latest holocaust in Africa was a result of Hutu extermination of the Tutsis. As I've explained, this is tribal warfare, and is quite natural indeed. It only becomes unnatural when you view it from the position that all of humanity is a single tribe. And while Christ taught such a view, it is not unique to Christ. It is simply an evolved idea of a tribe, that emerges naturally as the world becomes a smaller place.



If society teaches society, then why does society suck so bad exactly Boris? How long have we been at this? How much history of pain and agony and suffering do we have to write down and debate and rationalize and blame before we all actually learn something huh? You yourself have NO answers, and will not look to God. You are part of the problem, and you will never see the solution to the problem, because your assumptions are flawed, like in any math problem, it makes it impossible for you to get the right answer. If society teaches society, we're doing one HELL of a job at learning now aren't we?


Well, the society may indeed be a slow learner, but that is only because the majority of society is not interested in education. Until the industrial revolution, all societies on earth consisted in their majority of uneducated simple-minded drones, and so it is no surprise that for millennia the lessons were not being learned.

Fast-forward to the modern times, and at least by my example, you can see that at least some of us are interested in learning, and indeed do learn. And as you should have observed by now, I do have answers, and pretty good ones at that.



To be specific, your views, that we are nothing but animals with opposable thumbs ... IS THE VERY REASON THAT THIS SOCIETY IS IN ALMOST CONTIUOUS PAIN AGONY AND DESPAIR.


Now there's a laugh. You didn't seriously expect me to keep from reminding you that this society is overwhelmingly Christian, did you? Christianity obviously brings no solutions, so stop claiming that it does.



Boris, fact is that it would be real nice if we were able to find the truth without God. I guess real nice because you would never have to really acknowledge the existance of pain and suffering or take any accountability for it. Maybe you could even learn to like it. But you prove to me that this world, this humanity, this society has done that, and I'll eat my shorts.


Well, for one, finding truth without God is what I've been doing for a significant portion of my life, and what science has been successfully accomplishing for millennia, and I'd say it works pretty well.

And where did that conclusion come from, that atheism will prevent one from acknowledging or taking resposibility for pain? Did I not argue redundantly enough that atheism = objectivity, which automatically prevents an atheist from ignoring anything?

As for this world, humanity, and society, they have obviously not done "that". And I'd argue that such a failure is caused in a large part by widespread irrationality, ignorance, and lack of objectivity.

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I am; therefore I think.