GDP Revised but Oil Still Threatens

Tuesday’s dollar slide following the South Korea’s central bank diversification remarks helped lift oil prices above the $50 mark on the rationale that oil producers will require higher prices and find little incentive to raise output.

http://www.forexnews.com/ai/default.asp

When a seemingly innocuous remark from the central bank of South Korea makes the dollar tank, as happened here , all is not well with the United States' position in the world economy.

Here is an excerpt from CNN Lou Dobbs program (02/25/2005)

Well, let's turn to the so-called free trade agreements in this country. The controversial Central American Free Trade Agreement goes before Congress next month. The White House says the deal will open up new markets for U.S. made goods in 6 Central American countries. And critics compare the agreement to NAFTA, they say it will only cost more American jobs.

My next guest has written a new book on CAFTA. It's called "CAFTA and Free Trade: What Every American Should Know." And Greg Spotts is also the director of a highly acclaimed documentary, "American Jobs," which we have featured on this broadcast previously.

And thanks very much for being here, Greg.

GREG SPOTTS, AUTHOR/FILMMAKER: Thank you for having me.

PILGRIM: You went and sat in living rooms of America, not as an economist, not as a politician, as a filmmaker and now as an author, and heard the stories of people across this country whose jobs have been sent overseas. What do you take away from all of this anecdotal evidence? There is a conclusion, I'm sure.

SPOTTS: Yeah. The scary thing is other countries are finding ways to target jobs up and down the value chain. And the experiences of textile workers who's work has gone to Mexico or China are very similar to the experiences of software programmers whose work has gone to India. And I think we're starting to risk hollowing out the middle class and hollowing out our own earnings power if we just keep driving forward in the same direction.
PILGRIM: Your book is great. And I had a chance to look through it this afternoon. And you say the average American is more concerned about this than the experts are. How concerned are the average Americans? And why aren't the experts? The anecdotal evidence seems overwhelming.

SPOTTS: There's evidence that's more than anecdotal. We know that NAFTA resulted in the destruction of about 2 million American jobs. It also created about 1 million, so that's a net loss of 1 million jobs. We know that some of those jobs that went to Mexico have already been moved on to China.

There's a lot of hard, scientific, you know, numerical evidence to suggest that this corporate friendly style of free trade that we're pursuing is designed to open new labor markets, not to open new markets for our American-made goods.

PILGRIM: Some economists argue for global trade, but not the kind of free trade that we're seeing now. Do you see that distinction?

SPOTTS: Oh, definitely. A lot of people think that globalization is sort of an inevitable historical process, but the rules of the road are written by lawyers and politicians, and they've been written to benefit large multinational corporations. Imagine if we were really serious about, you know, developing Latin America. We could have an escalating minimum wage, the right to unionize, worker safety standards, environmental standards. We could invest in housing for the workers, and you know, social services, police protection, basic things that they need. And we may end up with relationship with a strengthening country instead of a very, very poor country that's forced to just work for us at the lowest possible rate.

PILGRIM: Do you think it's sufficient to just enforce the trade agreements and the provisions therein that are out there now, such as WTO?

SPOTTS: No, not at all, although I do think that we're the only naive honorable player in the whole system. I think because the U.S. designed the system, we think people should be sticking to it, but I don't think there's a developed or a developing country that's really adhering to the letter and the spirit of the trade laws, except for us.

PILGRIM: Greg Spotts, always a pleasure to talk to you, thank you very much.

SPOTTS: Thank you for having me.

PILGRIM: Well, outsourcing is booming more than expected in India. A new report shows that one million people there now have jobs that were outsourced from other countries. A staggering number of those jobs these workers now hold were once American jobs. Software experts say India will make more than $17 billion this year from software outsourcing alone. The president of India's National Software Association says India did not expect to make that much money from outsourcing because of the backlash from the United States, but he says the outsourcing wave has decreased, if not gone away fully.

Well, we can tell you right now we're not going to stop reporting on this issue on this broadcast anytime soon.

A snapshot of American Problems:

o “Employers slashed over one million jobs in 2004 for the fourth straight year,” Challenger, Gray and Christmas.2005

o We have lost jobs for the first four-year period since the Great Depression

o Our Budget deficit is $150 Billion and growing

o Our Job Growth is a net shortage of 3 million jobs

o Our Trade deficit in the last 10 months is $500 Billion and growing year after year

o Our war on terrorism is at $200 Billion and climbing; In Iraq today, it costs $1 billion a week for two divisions conducting stability operations

o Our exports are on a downward trend - just look at Ohio and Pennsylvania

o Outsourcing of Jobs and Manufacturing is accelerating

o The Textile industry is going to lose 600,000 jobs due to the world wide embargo lift on China, effective January 1st 2005

o China produces 40% cheaper goods than we do

o India provides 60% cheaper high paying Computer Services than we do

o Soon, China will be exporting Steel, Automobiles, and Machineries, which was our strength, already 96% of apparel is imported to America

o Our Manufacturing is going to China, Korea and Mexico

o Our Services are going to India and Ireland

o The US is the largest debtor nation in the world

o The US is the largest per capita consumer of energy

o The US currency is in decline, assuring a decline in our way of life and our world super power status

o Canada is Ohio’s #1 export partner (60%), Ohio’s #2 export partner is Mexico (7%); China is aggressively dumping products to Canada. It could take 2 years but, what if our Ohio exports to Canada drops to 35%? The result will be major job losses!

o Consumers owe a whopping $9.9 trillion dollars & growing. “One of the implications of huge debt loads is that millions of Americans literally can not afford to retire,” Harvard Law, Warren 2005

o Analysts now recommend it is risky to keep your money in U.S. Companies and are urging to invest overseas

o China has replaced the United States as Malaysia's largest trading partner. Megatrends Asia Malaysia is currently #31 on the ‘03 Ohio export list and the ’02 to ’03 percentage change was -20% Ohio Exports 2003

0:07am 03/01/05
U.S. Feb. ISM manufacturing index slips to 55.3% By Greg Robb

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Factory activity in the United States decelerated in February, the Institute for Supply Management reported Tuesday. This is the lowest level of the index since Sept. 2003. The ISM index fell to 55.3 percent in February from 56.4 percent in January. The decline was unexpected. The consensus forecast of estimates collected by Marketwatch was for the index to rise to 56.7. Readings above 50 indicate expansion. New orders fell to 55.8 in February from 56.5 in January. The employment index fell to 57.4 from 58.1.

$9B Goes Missing In Iraq
Huge Sum Disappears Without A Trace
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/helenthomas/4228758/detail.html

And the banks tries to foreclose on the home of a US soldier...........

Dear, dear me! The sky is falling.......again!!!!! :eek:

During WWII, my mother always told me to eat everything on my plate. "Just think," she would say, "Of those poor starving children in Europe!" Well now, how about those poor unemployed folks in Europe? And in Japan?

Of course, anyone who thinks the United States is on the wrong track is free to join those in Europe's workers' paradise..........:D

The sky is indeed falling ask Greenspan...

Of course he is saying the sky is falling. People worrying about the economy is job security for him.

He is retiring next yr...no he's being deadly serious ur economy if it continues on its current path is "el fuckedo".

Dear, dear me! The sky is falling.......again!!!!! :eek:
yeah its landed somewhere between your ears marv !

During WWII, my mother always told me to eat everything on my plate. "Just think," she would say, "Of those poor starving children in Europe!" Well now, how about those poor unemployed folks in Europe? And in Japan?
Jesus , a nostalgia trip and now the world outside thinks of all those poor , homeless and hungry American children , my , my how the worm turns .

Of course, anyone who thinks the United States is on the wrong track is free to join those in Europe's workers' paradise..........:D
Hey Marv you dont live on a survivalist commune by any chance ?

Being retired, Brian, I don't worry about "starving". My pension and Social Security feed me and my wife just fine, maintain two SUVs and a SW, and five pups (dogs are always pups to me). As to the rest of the population, jeeze, it was announced that the US unemployment rate has RISEN to 5.4%. OMG, I missed that in the double digit rates in Europe. Hell, Germany even barred unemployment benefits to women who refuse to work as prostitutes! My 2004 Federal Income Tax was $108US. Isn't it great what tax cuts can do for an economy?

And no, I'm not a survivalist. Just a deer hunter. And I don't live in a welfare commune like you, or try to eradicate koala bears!

Being retired, Brian, I don't worry about "starving". My pension and Social Security feed me and my wife just fine, maintain two SUVs and a SW, and five pups (dogs are always pups to me).
Hey you have done well Marv ! Hmmm... I should of completed that extra year of school ? Shame about the other 25 million of your fellow retired Americans mired in poverty I suppose they are just losers .

As to the rest of the population, jeeze, it was announced that the US unemployment rate has RISEN to 5.4%.
Or maybe your goverment is fiddling the true numbers of the unemployed ?

The True Unemployment Rate - 10.9%
http://www.depression2.tv/nwo/archives/000023.html

OMG, I missed that in the double digit rates in Europe. Hell, Germany even barred unemployment benefits to women who refuse to work as prostitutes!
European goverments can no longer pull the wool over their citizens eyes something Americans are beginning to realise with their own system .

My 2004 Federal Income Tax was $108US. Isn't it great what tax cuts can do for an economy?
No Marv the tax cuts from Bush to the rich are a looting of the people , these tax cuts for the wealthy always precede an expected collapse . This is evident with this phony war on terror its just a cover for an imperial clash between America and the newly resurgent EU . America is fighting for its economic survival and that means US control of distribution of mideast oil which generates $1 trillion for the US economy . Thats the gamble if it fails the rich have their looted nest egg from the people to cushion their fall .

And no, I'm not a survivalist. Just a deer hunter. And I don't live in a welfare commune like you, or try to eradicate koala bears!
What the hell is wrong with free health care , free education why should some snot nose rich kid get access to first class educational institutions ? Whilst poorer ones get a hand out education ?

Hey you have done well Marv !For a school dropout, I guess so.
Or maybe your goverment is fiddling the true numbers of the unemployed ?The depression2.tv definition of "Alternative measures of labor underutilization?", or U-6, reads like it was written by the Queen of Hearts.
No Marv the tax cuts from Bush to the rich are a looting of the people , these tax cuts for the wealthy...FYI...
1998, Income $17,374, Tax $604
1999, Income $16,746, Tax $441 (first Republican tax cut)
2000, Income $16,890, Tax $461
2001, Income $17,562, Tax $197 (2 heart attacks, big medical deduction)
2002, Income $18,042, Tax $328
2003, Income $18,318, Tax $81 (Bush's tax cut)
2004, Income $19,011, Tax $108Now do the math. Bush's tax cuts didn't fully come in until the 2003 tax year. See how much more I have to spend on things. Doesn't seem like much on an individual basis, but multiply it by the millions of families. And most have bigger incomes (and tax cuts) than I do. Remember, I'm on a pension and SS.

Don't you wish the Peoples Republic of Australia would do the same?
What the hell is wrong with free health care , free education why should some snot nose rich kid get access to first class educational institutions ? Whilst poorer ones get a hand out education ?Nothing - if you can get somebody to pay for it. What gave you the idea that life is a handout? You want something? Work for it! You'd be surprised how easy it is. Free stuff reduces incentive to work to the extent that somebody can get something for nothing.

Less work = less tax revenue. Just ask the Euro-pee-ons about their unemployment rates and sky-high taxes. Oh, BTW, apply that funny U-6 formula to Europe....:eek:

Now do the math.
Your being hoodwinked Marv by your freemarket masters its time you did your maths real wages have not kept up with inflation

The federal minimum wage level, unchanged since 1997, has not kept up with increasing costs for necessities such as housing, food, utilities, child care, transportation, and medical care. In real (inflation-adjusted) dollars, the minimum wage has fallen nearly 40 percent since 1968.
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=202882
These tax cuts you trumpet are nothing more than a cost of living allowance bump , and a meagre one at that .

2004, Income $19,011, Tax $108

Gross income, perhaps. Not taxable income, which would be around
$10,800 based on the tax you claim to have paid. Not everyone can
find deductions for half of their claimed income. (U.S. Tax Schedules (http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=133625,00.html))

:m: Peace.

Gross income, perhaps.The incomes I posted were my taxable incomes as calculated, not my gross. The real gross would have included both my SS and my wife's SS (which incidently is greater than mine). Our combined SS is not high enough to be taxable. Further, the gross calculated on my Feredal pension is scaled each year to consider the income taxes I paid while working and paying income tax on my original 7% contribution to CRS.

For example, our combined real gross income for 2004 was $20,424 (my CRS pension), $5,580 and $6,084 (the SS's). My taxes on $32,098 real gross in 2004 amounted to $108. And since we don't have a house mortgage anymore because it's paid off, we take the standard deduction.

And Brian, I'm not greedy. And inflation? Remember that Jimmy Carter isn't President anymore. :D We budget, and live within that budget. That's why we put $150 each month into savings and still have some left over each month.

BTW, I forgot to mention in my post that the jump in taxes paid from $81 to $108 between 2003 and 2004 was in part due to capital gains I paid taxes on when I cashed in some mutual funds to pay cash for my second SUV!

Can Australia do better?

And Brian, I'm not greedy. And inflation? Remember that Jimmy Carter isn't President anymore. :D
Actually reading about the Carter administration he was a socially responsible President . In the 1970s inflation was reported openly , today inflation like the unemployment figures is distorted and manipulated .

We budget, and live within that budget. That's why we put $150 each month into savings and still have some left over each month.
Thats fine , you had the luxury of spending your working life during the 50's through to the 60's and 70's when America had a booming economy . This enabled you to save and prepare for your retirement . Unlike today unsuredness in the economy due to freemarket policies and employment due to the disappearance of unions 2 income familiers struggle to make way to pay a house off , or pay rent etc..... the symptoms of a freemarket financial parasite system .

BTW, I forgot to mention in my post that the jump in taxes paid from $81 to $108 between 2003 and 2004 was in part due to capital gains I paid taxes on when I cashed in some mutual funds to pay cash for my second SUV!
So you own 2 SUV's and your own home well done ! 2.5 million Americans are homeless and 25+ million live under the poverty lines ......catastrophe!

Can Australia do better?
No Australia has implemented the same parasitical freemarket policies America has since 1982 the year that was the start of this economic vandalism Reaganism .

Actually reading about the Carter administration he was a socially responsible President . In the 1970s inflation was reported openly , today inflation like the unemployment figures is distorted and manipulated .Carter was the most naive President the US ever had. His "social responsibility", as you might say, drove interest rates and inflation both to double digits. You only read about Carter. I was here. Reagan fixed Carter's screw-ups.


...you had the luxury of spending your working life during the 50's through to the 60's and 70's when America had a booming economy . This enabled you to save and prepare for your retirement . Unlike today unsuredness in the economy due to freemarket policies and employment due to the disappearance of unions 2 income familiers struggle to make way to pay a house off , or pay rent etc..... the symptoms of a freemarket financial parasite system .I enlisted in the USAF in 1958. After my discharge in '62, I worked 4 years in the insurance industry, 5 more for a defense contractor (where I got my start in computers), 4 more for the Federal Reserve Bank branch in Kansas City, and it was Federal government the rest of the way until '92 when I retired at 54.

Luxury? No! I applied myself and worked hard for every promotion, even over older, degreed employees with longer tenure. I never did drugs or squander income on toys and always saved some part of my income. I drove used cars and from the first house I bought, I parlied the equity upward as job transfers required.


So you own 2 SUV's and your own home well done ! 2.5 million Americans are homeless and 25+ million live under the poverty lines ......catastrophe!I'm a school dropout as I've said. Everybody here has had the same chances that I have had. But not everybody has the same will to work hard and improve themselves.


No Australia has implemented the same parasitical freemarket policies America has since 1982 the year that was the start of this economic vandalism Reaganism .Oh. So Reagan is to blame for your financial woes? How about YOU? Hmmmmmmmmm? Just who should be responsible for clothing, feeding and housing you? If you don't have enough of whatever it is that you want, is it the "rich man's" fault, or maybe the "big corporations" that keep you down? You're 44 and drinking beer is your interest. Maybe that explains a lot about you. Too bad!

Carter was the most naive President the US ever had. His "social responsibility", as you might say, drove interest rates and inflation both to double digits. You only read about Carter. I was here. Reagan fixed Carter's screw-ups.
How did Reagan fix anything ? The savings and loans racket ,

Luxury? No! I applied myself and worked hard for every promotion, even over older, degreed employees with longer tenure. I never did drugs or squander income on toys and always saved some part of my income. I drove used cars and from the first house I bought, I parlied the equity upward as job transfers required.
And

I'm a school dropout as I've said. Everybody here has had the same chances that I have had. But not everybody has the same will to work hard and improve themselves.
Same as me , I dropped out of school , today I still drive a used car and I have a mortgage , but I save my money . I work hard as a foreman in a machine tool assembly plant , I have encvountered people who are lazy . I don’t go around patting myself on the back and tell myself anyone below my station is a loser or what . I have seen enough of this life to know that people like Aborigines who are born behind the 8 ball in life because of racism and indifference .
To know that homelessness is not a lifestyle choice poverty is not self inflicted but aided and abetted by deliberate policies of greed .

Oh. So Reagan is to blame for your financial woes?
No I blame my leaders such as Bob Hawke or if I was English Thatcher , Reagan just lent his name to the whole escapade . In reality Reagan was an idiot who was a figurehead unto which launch these freemarket policies .

How about YOU? Hmmmmmmmmm?
And

Just who should be responsible for clothing, feeding and housing you?
I just want a society which is equal for all and that means free education based on merit not wealth , free health care for all , control of OUR
Money not by private financiers . That means a socialist system of shared wealth .

If you don't have enough of whatever it is that you want, is it the "rich man's" fault, or maybe the "big corporations" that keep you down? You're 44 and drinking beer is your interest. Maybe that explains a lot about you. Too bad!
I got plenty , nothing keeps me down , I just think of those who are not as fortunate as me because I believe in a level playing feild . And as for the beer , hey Im a man , deal with it .

Now I'm learning something about your frame of mind. You're a middle-class worker who believes that socialism will solve our problems.

My friend, socialism is a promise without fulfillment. Look at Europe. High taxes paying for an exorbitant welfare system. A full month "holiday" as an entitlement. German women knocked off the welfare rolls because they refuse to work as prostitutes. Emigration from the Netherlands reaching record highs. Double digit unemployment. This is the product of socialism. It's a dream not come true.

In a perfect world, I would agree that socialism would be the ideal. But we don't live in a perfect world, and never will, because the people who make up the world aren't perfect. People all over the world lie, cheat and steal; and not always because they are forced to because of exigency. Many simply choose to. From the common criminal to the offices of corporate CEO's, it's part of life and won't change. I'm not preaching politics, just simple reality.

Capitalism, as an economic system, isn't perfect by any means. But it allows the individual the opportunity (not the promise) to advance as far as they are willing to go. That's a fundamental difference with socialism. Socialism attempts to promise while forgetting that politicians have to deliver or face defeat in their next election. Capitalism only provides opportunity.

And level playing fields? There are none. We each have our own playing field defined at birth by class, wealth and genetics, all out of our control. We become what we choose to make of ourselves. In the end, socialism shares nothing.

Now I'm learning something about your frame of mind. You're a middle-class worker who believes that socialism will solve our problems.
No Im just working class when I landed this job 10 years ago I was just a worker and today I worked myself into promotions if I leave this job its back to labouring .

My friend, socialism is a promise without fulfillment. Look at Europe. High taxes paying for an exorbitant welfare system. A full month "holiday" as an entitlement. German women knocked off the welfare rolls because they refuse to work as prostitutes. Emigration from the Netherlands reaching record highs. Double digit unemployment. This is the product of socialism. It's a dream not come true.
That is not socialism in Western Europe in practice nor theory what you had in Europe was a capitalist welfare state brought in after WWII after the experiences of the depression . Now that system is being dismantled in favour of the freemarket financial system , it is encountering resistance .

In a perfect world, I would agree that socialism would be the ideal. But we don't live in a perfect world, and never will, because the people who make up the world aren't perfect. People all over the world lie, cheat and steal; and not always because they are forced to because of exigency. Many simply choose to. From the common criminal to the offices of corporate CEO's, it's part of life and won't change. I'm not preaching politics, just simple reality.
Because people lie cheat and steal does not mean we can institute a fair and level system that protects and serve all equally in society . Society always will have deal with such individuals thats a simple reality .

Capitalism, as an economic system, isn't perfect by any means. But it allows the individual the opportunity (not the promise) to advance as far as they are willing to go. That's a fundamental difference with socialism. Socialism attempts to promise while forgetting that politicians have to deliver or face defeat in their next election. Capitalism only provides opportunity.
Capitalism works its as simple as that , Capitalism is designed for the benefit of a plutocracy , Capitalism allows financiers to profit from debt , Capitalism allows parasitical landlords to charge exorbitant rents . Capitalism simply is a parasitical system in which we create a welfare state for the affluent . That what Reaganism and Thatcherism was they reversed the new deals of the post depression world and have sent our economic systems right back to the 1800’s . That wealth in those Banks is our wealth not theirs , they did not create that wealth that wealth has always been there and when we the people take back control of our wealth we take back control of our lives and society . Eisenhower was on to this when he made his farewell speech he warned Americans .

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html
And the 2 US Presidents Lincoln and Kennedy that began to interfere with that Capitalist system were assassinated by “lone nuts” . This was the platform of Huey Long the man who would of been President by popular choice over Franklin D Roosevelt . Unfortunately and suspiciously and predictably was assasinated by a “lone nut”in 1935 before he could of changed America forever .

believed concentrated wealth was greatest danger to society - Share Our Wealth Society organized Feb. 23, 1934 with Gerald L.K. Smith (of NC Silver Shirts) - goal to tax the rich and give to the poor; tax on all inherited fortunes over $1m and personal income over $4m would pay for redistribution of wealth: give $5000 allowance to every family, a guaranteed $2000 annual income to all for a 30-hour wrok week, all personal debt cancelled, free education through college, and a pension for the aged over 60 - was promoted with a national newspaper the American Progress and radio broadcasts - by 1935 had 7m members in 27,000 clubs in every state (but most were in the South) http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/classes/20th/hueylong.html


And level playing fields? There are none. We each have our own playing field defined at birth by class, wealth and genetics, all out of our control. We become what we choose to make of ourselves. In the end, socialism shares nothing. All that which glisters does not make it gold and capitalism is concentrated greed which we live off on the crumbs , whilst rich people feast and skeletons choke on crusts of bread there will never be democracy .

I'm changing my mind. You're not a Socialist, you're a Marxist.

The goal of the leaders and promoters of Marxism is to convince people that they are all victims. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," I believe is the watch-word. Those in need, of course, are those who feel exploited by those they envy. Marxism promises a level field of outcome. Want eventually replaces need and ambition becomes expectation.

Capitalism only promises a level field for opportunity for outcome. The best and brightest, regardless of origin, will rise to the top and society as a whole will benefit by their hard work.

I had a neighbor once who drove a forklift in a warehouse. I was running an IBM mainframe computer at the Kansas City Federal Reserve Bank. He would come home and get drunk to work off the misery he felt. I would come home and mow my lawn to work off the stress of my job. He was always mad at me because of the contrast of his desert-looking "yard" to my fertilized and maintained lawn that looked like a park. He finally died of a heart attack. His wife was thankful I've been told. But I'm sure that he would have been at your side politically.

If you spend time reading, you might try Ayn Rand. And I submit that your knowledge of our Presidents is sadly mistaken. BTW, Huey Long was an ambitious but very corrupt politician, just the type to head up a Marxist government.

I'm changing my mind. You're not a Socialist, you're a Marxist.
Jesus Christ.....................

The goal of the leaders and promoters of Marxism is to convince people that they are all victims. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," I believe is the watch-word. Those in need, of course, are those who feel exploited by those they envy. Marxism promises a level field of outcome. Want eventually replaces need and ambition becomes expectation.
So I take it Marv your an avid listener of self improvement tapes ....

Capitalism only promises a level field for opportunity for outcome. The best and brightest, regardless of origin, will rise to the top and society as a whole will benefit by their hard work.
The blindingly obvious evidence of Native Americans , like the Aborigines , who live on poverty stricken reservations within a Capitalist society put your whacked out theory to rest . And answer this what of those workers who lost their retirement nest eggs from the Enron collapse should they be refunded that money in full ? I mean if Capitalism sets the level playing feild standard should it not also set the example of fair play ;)

I had a neighbor once who drove a forklift in a warehouse. I was running an IBM mainframe computer at the Kansas City Federal Reserve Bank. He would come home and get drunk to work off the misery he felt.
Oh God , another parable .

I would come home and mow my lawn to work off the stress of my job. He was always mad at me because of the contrast of his desert-looking "yard" to my fertilized and maintained lawn that looked like a park.
What this tells me is that you are a hen pecked husband Marv .

He finally died of a heart attack. His wife was thankful I've been told. But I'm sure that he would have been at your side politically.
And what this tells me about his wife was that she had not the guts to divorce him and go it alone .

If you spend time reading, you might try Ayn Rand.
No thanks I have given up for lent , tell you what Marv try thinking for yourself , stop reading material that instructs you on how to think and act .

And I submit that your knowledge of our Presidents is sadly mistaken.
You certainly have not given any debate to prove elsewise .

BTW, Huey Long was an ambitious but very corrupt politician, just the type to head up a Marxist government.
Huey long was a capitalist who during the depression realised that a FAIR and GRADED tax system was sound economic policy .

Why should I continue with converstaions with a brick wall?

Why should I continue with converstaions with a brick wall?
You are the one who engaged me in this debate , truth is you dont have the intellectual capacity to carry it on .

Generally Marv and I escaped the traditional university education, so we missed out on that set of half truths and false inferences. I read more than 1/2 of the 1064 pages of the NAFTA agreement, so I know first hand, much of it is double talk and worse. There is a much longer version, likely even worse. The USA may already have gone too far down this path which will lead The USA to 3d world status. In my opinion the traditionally educated people have typically made the wrong political choices even when they have performed their specialties well.
We should tell our trading partners that 1% USA consumption must be produced in the USA for every product and service of significance before the end of 2005, or they can expect terriffs etc to make a much higher percentage of domestic production in 2006. Neil

I read more than 1/2 of the 1064 pages of the NAFTA agreement, so I know first hand, much of it is double talk and worse. There is a much longer version, likely even worse. The USA may already have gone too far down this path which will lead The USA to 3d world status. In my opinion the traditionally educated people have typically made the wrong political choices even when they have performed their specialties well.
NAFTA was designed by affluent corporations to maximize their profits and this is exactly what NAFTA does . The fact that you and every other Mexican and Canadian fight tooth and nail for jobs is immaterial to these vast corporations .The rest of NAFTA which is secret from the US public would be of a political nature ie: human rights get binned .

No Im just working class when I landed this job 10 years ago I was just a worker and today I worked myself into promotions if I leave this job its back to labouring .

That is not socialism in Western Europe in practice nor theory what you had in Europe was a capitalist welfare state brought in after WWII after the experiences of the depression . Now that system is being dismantled in favour of the freemarket financial system , it is encountering resistance .

Because people lie cheat and steal does not mean we can institute a fair and level system that protects and serve all equally in society . Society always will have deal with such individuals thats a simple reality .

Capitalism works its as simple as that , Capitalism is designed for the benefit of a plutocracy , Capitalism allows financiers to profit from debt , Capitalism allows parasitical landlords to charge exorbitant rents . Capitalism simply is a parasitical system in which we create a welfare state for the affluent . That what Reaganism and Thatcherism was they reversed the new deals of the post depression world and have sent our economic systems right back to the 1800’s . That wealth in those Banks is our wealth not theirs , they did not create that wealth that wealth has always been there and when we the people take back control of our wealth we take back control of our lives and society . Eisenhower was on to this when he made his farewell speech he warned Americans .

And the 2 US Presidents Lincoln and Kennedy that began to interfere with that Capitalist system were assassinated by “lone nuts” . This was the platform of Huey Long the man who would of been President by popular choice over Franklin D Roosevelt . Unfortunately and suspiciously and predictably was assasinated by a “lone nut”in 1935 before he could of changed America forever .


All that which glisters does not make it gold and capitalism is concentrated greed which we live off on the crumbs , whilst rich people feast and skeletons choke on crusts of bread there will never be democracy .
In theory, socialism could be modified to have some of the better features of capitalism. But it would not be socialism (or fascist, or communist) if we remove the weak point. Government rarely does anything well. I can't think of a single item done well by any government since The Marshell plan. ie the misery of Black Americans has not decreased (on the average) in spite of a trillion dollar investment by the USA government. Support Libertarian candidates. Neil

Government rarely does anything well. I can't think of a single item done well by any government since The Marshell plan. ie the misery of Black Americans has not decreased (on the average) in spite of a trillion dollar investment by the USA government. Support Libertarian candidates. Neil
That is because the goverments of the capitalist West serve a plutocratic platform whereby policy is directed or enforced by the goverment on behalf of the wealthy elite . Thats why at this moment US foreign policy in the mideast is one of retaining the control of distribution of mideast oil in the interests of US petroleum corporations . this bullshit about democracy is just scenery for gullible saps to digest .

Do you know of an instance where the the wealthy elete do not dominate a communism, fascit or socialist government? It is wishful thinking that we end the influence of the rich and powerful by weakening capitalism. At best we get a different set of theives to rule us. Libertarian might be different, if enough of us common folks watched carefully what our leaders are doing. The price of Liberty is eternal vigelence. Neil

Libertarian from what I understand is extreme unfettered freemarket capitalism with no goverment interference , in other words econimic anrachism . All I want is Free education for all , free health care for all , access to affordable housing for all and full employment and financial protection against un-employment .

i am sure while all of you are great analysts,please take care to read Gartner Journals and their report on U.S. jOBs and economic scenario.

i am done for the night.

It seems that people that are only given government allowed freedoms don't understand that our Union is given the freedoms not from our government, but rather from our Maker.

This applies to who we see for our doctors. You want free healthcare, but so much trouble comes with it. Higher taxes is just the monetary downside. What happens when the government decides all person should receive cancer theropy because of some obscure test result. Under a government run system, we would all receive such care regardless if we do not want it or not. Or what about doctors that abuse their posistions...we already see what happens to teacher that teach in public schools.....nothing.

Im rambling and at work so forgive the scattered thoughts and lack of information that the tip of my tongue for you.

Im rambling and at work so forgive the scattered thoughts and lack of information that the tip of my tongue for you.
I do

America does have economic problems and I think that a tax increase is a big part of the answer.

Let's face it, no one wants America to fall so as long as the Asians are dependant on US demand for their economic growth I don't fear this "economic collapse".

Let's face it, no one wants America to fall so as long as the Asians are dependant on US demand for their economic growth I don't fear this "economic collapse".
I do not fear collapse at this time but I do think that the high deficits make America's economy weaker than it should be.

Correct, the deficits are weakening our economy. Tax increases will not fix the problems that we face. Changing the system will. Abolish the IRS and the repeal the 16th Amendment. Rid the people of being taxed on income. Switch to a consumer based tax, one that is based on consumption. Hey, you like to buy a lot of toys and excess goods, then you will pay higher taxes. If you know your needs and wants and can control them, then you will pay a lower tax.

It is a truely fair system in terms of taxing.

"And the 2 US Presidents Lincoln and Kennedy that began to interfere with that Capitalist system were assassinated by 'lone nuts'."

Hehe, I've met 3rd graders with a more refined understanding of the American presidents than this clown. Kennedy was one of the more devout capitalist presidents who, if I'm not mistaken, oversaw the largest single tax cut in our nations history. The last true Democrat, as far as I can tell. Back when liberalism was synonymous with personal liberty, rather than social slavery.

Correct, the deficits are weakening our economy. Tax increases will not fix the problems that we face. Changing the system will. Abolish the IRS and the repeal the 16th Amendment. Rid the people of being taxed on income. Switch to a consumer based tax, one that is based on consumption. Hey, you like to buy a lot of toys and excess goods, then you will pay higher taxes. If you know your needs and wants and can control them, then you will pay a lower tax.

It is a truely fair system in terms of taxing.


I hope this is an april fools joke 8-) The US deficit would be a lot larger if Americans weren't such well-trained consumers. Any move to discourage consumption would be political suicide. If it were possible it'd probably be the single best thing ever done for the environment.

I'm a school dropout as I've said. Everybody here has had the same chances that I have had. But not everybody has the same will to work hard and improve themselves.

Marv, close your eyes and imagine another world, the world where everybody has the same will to work hard and improve himself as you do. Well, guess what, some of those equally hardworking people would need to live in poverty, work low wage jobs, clean restrooms, ..., be unemployed, homeless. There is no other way around in a capitalist world. Don't fool yourself. You pulled a lucky ticket, good for you, many haven't. Making far reaching conclusions based on a personal success story is somewhat arrogant and naive.

...
1998, Income $17,374, Tax $604
1999, Income $16,746, Tax $441 (first Republican tax cut)
2000, Income $16,890, Tax $461
2001, Income $17,562, Tax $197 (2 heart attacks, big medical deduction)
2002, Income $18,042, Tax $328
2003, Income $18,318, Tax $81 (Bush's tax cut)
2004, Income $19,011, Tax $108Now do the math. Bush's tax cuts didn't fully come in until the 2003 tax year. :

Looks strange, I did not think Bush tax cut was cutting peoples tax bill in half at any income level. Perhaps you own dividend paying stocks and are no longer paying taxes on the dividends.

A snapshot of American Problems:

o “Employers slashed over one million jobs in 2004 for the fourth straight year,” Challenger, Gray and Christmas.2005

o We have lost jobs for the first four-year period since the Great Depression

o Our Budget deficit is $150 Billion and growing

o Our Job Growth is a net shortage of 3 million jobs

o Our Trade deficit in the last 10 months is $500 Billion and growing year after year

o Our war on terrorism is at $200 Billion and climbing; In Iraq today, it costs $1 billion a week for two divisions conducting stability operations

o Our exports are on a downward trend - just look at Ohio and Pennsylvania

o Outsourcing of Jobs and Manufacturing is accelerating

o The Textile industry is going to lose 600,000 jobs due to the world wide embargo lift on China, effective January 1st 2005

o China produces 40% cheaper goods than we do

o India provides 60% cheaper high paying Computer Services than we do

o Soon, China will be exporting Steel, Automobiles, and Machineries, which was our strength, already 96% of apparel is imported to America

o Our Manufacturing is going to China, Korea and Mexico

o Our Services are going to India and Ireland

o The US is the largest debtor nation in the world

o The US is the largest per capita consumer of energy

o The US currency is in decline, assuring a decline in our way of life and our world super power status

o Canada is Ohio’s #1 export partner (60%), Ohio’s #2 export partner is Mexico (7%); China is aggressively dumping products to Canada. It could take 2 years but, what if our Ohio exports to Canada drops to 35%? The result will be major job losses!

o Consumers owe a whopping $9.9 trillion dollars & growing. “One of the implications of huge debt loads is that millions of Americans literally can not afford to retire,” Harvard Law, Warren 2005

o Analysts now recommend it is risky to keep your money in U.S. Companies and are urging to invest overseas

o China has replaced the United States as Malaysia's largest trading partner. Megatrends Asia Malaysia is currently #31 on the ‘03 Ohio export list and the ’02 to ’03 percentage change was -20% Ohio Exports 2003

Thanks for the good news; I thought it was worse than that.

I particularly thought that China and India were producing goods and services more cheaply than the 40% and 60% of USA's cost number that you are using. The dollar needs to fall against the Yuan and the Rupee rather than against the Yen and the Euro. (Saying Renminbi may be more more correct than saying Yuan but Yuan seems to be the more common term for China's currency.) Unfortunately the dollar can not fall against the Yuan because the Yuan is pegged to the dollar. WalMart will keep buying from China until some other place produces more cheaply than China. If the Dollar falls a little against the Yuan then WalMart will have to pay China more for all the Chinese goods on WalMarts shelves and the US trade deficit will grow. If the Dollar fell more than 40% against the Yuan (given the 40% cheaper production number) then the USA could start building manufacturing plants to produce the things on WalMart's shelves and the trade deficit would start falling.

Europe and Japan don't have as many natural resources as the USA has, but they have advantages over the USA in that they don't waste as much money on military spending and their leaders are not completely blind to the havoc that free trade between rich and poor nations can create for the first World workers.

Marv, close your eyes and imagine another world, the world where everybody has the same will to work hard and improve himself as you do. Well, guess what, some of those equally hardworking people would need to live in poverty, work low wage jobs, clean restrooms, ..., be unemployed, homeless. There is no other way around in a capitalist world. Don't fool yourself. You pulled a lucky ticket, good for you, many haven't. Making far reaching conclusions based on a personal success story is somewhat arrogant and naive.

This is a very interesting idea. Let's pretend that the world really practised free trade. Let's pretend that magically everybody in the word is given the a perfect (as defined by employers) attitude towards work and a strong desire to create wealth for their families. Lets pretend that all drug addiction, ill health, mental illness, bad habbits and anything else that might interfere with people being good workers are magically eliminated. Lets pretend that everybody has been magically given the understanding equivalent to having a PHD and ten years of cutting edge work experience in every field and sub field of work that exists on this earth. Let's pretend that everyone can read , write and speak English perfectly. THE QUESTION: what happens next?

What would the global economy do with all of these perfect workers in the short term?

The Answer, all highly paid employees would recieve pay cuts unless they were like the CEOs of large corporations and controlled their own salaries.

The owners of organizations and capital would see a great increase in their wealth because the ratio of capital to highly skilled labor had just changed when when all humans were magically turned into highly skilled labor while the supply of capital / tools / natural resources / organizational structures / and political crony connections remained constant.

The type of work that we need to have done would not change much just because we all would have knew skills. If more people would have good attitudes about standing behind a grill in McDonalds and flipping burgers then we would pay less for good attitude burger flippers. So untill time goes by and the new magically aquired skills produce increases in efficiency, everybody who works for others would get a pay cut as a result of everyone being perfect workers.