I am so saddened, sick and shocked by the terrorist attack in New York. How many have died scares me immensely. I am watching it on TV live now. These planes hijacked in Boston and flew to NY. What to do? I can imagine that Bush's response will be bloody to say the least......... I have modified this original post (14/09/01) as the speculation contained within has been overridden by cruel heartless fact...............

i think i might have misunderstood it by i got that the pentagon was the target of the 3rd plane (or the 2nd?!?)

u should not belive what pals say.
after every terror attack in Israel there are zilions of organizations saying they did it.

we must wait till they find the identity of the hi-jackers

i personaly think they were anti-globalization actives
and not pals/muslems since they got nothing to gain by this only make USA have a grudge against the pals


but again fanatic muslems/pals dont always abide and follow logic andmost of them are hunted down in thier own arabic/islamic nations (egypt,jordan,saudi arabia and such)

I will not jump to the conclusion that such and such did this. Nor will the US. They will have proof and will react upon that. It is no good to jump the gun and create more tragedy where it is not called for. I have all faith that whoever is responcible will not want to claim this one and those who do are wishful that they had. It will most likely be from a terrorist sponcered group. Who ,remains yet to be seen. The above is strictly speculation on my part. I wish that known.

Personally I think I know, as does the President, where this attack came from. Currently the information is that up to 20,000 people are dead, thousands injured, and now, 4 hours after the attack, both towers are collapsed, the pentagon is still on fire, with a collapsed section and NY is running out of blood. A plane 80 miles south of Pittsburgh has hit something but no news of it has been mentioned on the media. A 5th plane is still "missing" according to American Airlines................ the world as we knew it has just changed........ Radical - these people are actually glad to die for their cause but only get remembered by a few, for a few minutes, then it "another terrorist died today" - they will all get a shock when they arrive on the "other side"........ it aint there! Their version I mean......

Personally, if I knew exactly who was the cause of it and was able to do something about it, that person/cult whatever who was behind it all, would be punished severely even though I would suffer a loss.

I work for the government and I hate to see these things happen when nothing can be done about it. Revenge may not be the best answer, but I will want it.

President Bush should, and demand responsiblity, if he gets it, we should retaliate militarily and destroy the violators.

By the way, is the 5th plane? I haven't heard of one nor has MSNBC. I'm also looking for more reasons for a sweet revenge.

I would say patience and caution is the word for the day. Not to be in a rush to get the wrong people. Give it time. It will be known. Jumping through the window to get someone right now can not help. Get the right one if you must have some target. Being quick to do the deed will not save anyone already dead. Do not compound the deed by getting the wrong one.

I would like to extend my condolences and sympathy to the victims of this horrible crime and terrorism.

Revenge may not be sweet if there are only a handful of people resonsible out of which some are dead with the plane. I think we will find out soon, when the collected data is throughly analyzed. This type of co-ordinated attacks are easier to analyze than lone-gunman types. All all indications, it looks like a state sponsored terrorism and you probably can easily guess who was defeated by US.

Our country will never be the same and there will be some major changes in our society for years to come.

I was shocked when I saw the news. Itīs so sad, and not only will America never be the same, the rest of the world will not either.

I send my love to you.

:(

It's more fundamental than religion. The moment two humans laid eyes upon each other and conceived of a society -- or just some sort of collective self-interest -- things started going wrong.


...but that's just my cynicism. It's hard not to be cynical and depressive on a day like today.

Firstly, allow me to offer my condolences and support for those residing in USA...this tragedy is a vehement reminder of the barbaric and eventually unsophisticated world we live in.

This attack is truly shocking (if strategically very shrewd by the villains) Only a sick and demented (if brilliant) mind could have committed this heinous catastrophical crime; of staggering magnitude.

My, how the mighty have fallen. I must remark, that I believe that there was something going on in that part of the Pentagon, which is why the terrorists targeted just that point on the building.The President has accepted that while the security on international flights is tight, domestics are relatively loose.


The World Trade Centre's obliteration means that most economic systems will go haywire.

All pause for the +/-20,000 deaths in total.











Thank you.

Is this a transgression of demarcations set by democracy? In which case, this would point towards Osama Bin Lader...thoughts? I think the US should not reply tit for tat...but (and, to enter my dark side) I would understand if Bush bombed an Israeli city.

Americans have vowed to hunt down and destroy the perp...when Bush said that, I felt very well for Americans...you done good, Bush. As a writer, this event has particular connotation...thoughts?

Just been watching live pics of Kabul being hit by "something" - White house denys involvement but anti aircraft guns firing and missiles landing - so not sure who is doing what....... addition: the Northern Alliance (Rebel Group) are claiming responsibility for Kabul attacks.

ITS A VERY SAD DAY. i live on the other side of the country and still malls, some schools, all airports, and many businesses were shutdown. Also many of my friends and i out here can't actually beleive this happened we are not used to hearing about this kind of events happening in our own country. I belive that these attacks should be viewed as crimes against humanity. And to those Palestineines who think this is such a glorius day have you no remorse. I know you have been fighting for years and years and are used to bloodshed and carnage but look at what were able to accomplish a world in which any belief is accepted. We have learned to co-exist with eachother and you can't even look at eachother as a human being. well any ways Personally i think that the president is doing a lusy job. He wants revenge and thats all. Not that im saying that whoever did this shouldn't be punished but he has already jumped to conclusions and needs to slow down and look at the whole situation.

20 thousand dead??? OK guys, now we find out if the US means business?!? It's too bad that for some people the only answer is violence!?! As a superpower, we may start doing stuff just like the Israelis, undercover guards on all flights. Maybe start with no carry-on luggage, etc. I heard that the weapons used were easily passed. I have a conspiracy-buff friend that is sure that the US has a DNA sniffing satellite( he says some guy he knows was killed after they developed the technology, I find it hard to believe, no evidence of its use earlier against Osama bin Laden), well if its true now is the time to use it!?! Let's see what happens now?!?
:confused: :( :(

Firstly, my heart is broken within me over the suffering, pain and loss being experrienced in the lives of all involved.


Now are you ready?

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

- Nostradamus 1654

Could this be the begining of global catastrophic events as described in The Book of Revelation?

Allcare

Tony H2o

thats very interesting however that can be taken many ways and beside nostradomos said the world was going to end in oct of 99 or was it 2000 i don't remember but anyways he has predicted many hundreds things and only a handful have come true

In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb

Who is the great leader?

I'm not saying I subscribe to the predictions of ND, in actuality I doubt him more than believe him.

I posted that statement as it was passed to me, to essentially make people think and understand that if the darkest side of human nature is allowed to rule in each of us then this could be the final outcome.

If we allow anger and hatred to fuel the fires of vengence then it may well come to pass, however if we allow tollerance, love and justice to work then we control the outcome. the future is not a fixed result, we can determin the course of future history through our actions.

So I am simply asking each and every person to stop, consider with deep wisdom and decide what outcome we want?

Eye for Eye, Tooth for Tooth, Hate for Hate, Violence for Violence?

Or to show loving tollerance that calls acts of violence into account through the correct paths?

Our choice, each and every one of us. let us choose wisely as it is our collective voices that the leaders of our nations should be responding to.

Let us take comfort and find solace in knowing that we have risen above them, their methods and crimes and not stooped to their level.

With all my heart - Allcare

Tony H2o

Okay this is just my take and none of it is justified in an way shape or form but...
As thing stand right now the first ever Peace Time attack on US soil has been (mostly?) succesfully pulled of. No one claimed response. and no further actions have been taken by the antagonist, yet... according to the mass media a CULPRIT has been named (whassisname: aven binLaidin aWhile? ) and now the US is saying they will not only attack the terrorist but whoever harbours them, which is a cry for WORLD war.
I want to get alll conspiratorial, but won't.
What I really don't understand is how the planes could have been taken over by KNIFE-wielding maniacs? I mean Knives? Jeez.
Will wait to see how events unfold.

That Nostradamus quote was MADE UP to show people just how gullible they are in believing such foolishness.

Unfortunatly it worked as we see here. It will probably make it's way swiftly around the internet as the next big urban legand.

Ben

kalvinB,

Well spotted.

Nostradamus 1503 - 1566

NOT 1654

Don't believe everything that people send you, this supposed quote is a hoax.

However the rest of my post was real.


Tony H2o

There are some simple actions that can be taken to prevent airplane hijacking. They are:

1. Remove all 90 pound stewardsess and replace all of them with hulking, black belt stewards with weapons training. Basically have the cabin personnel as security force. That will cut down knife weilding terrorists.
2. Everyone who boards a plane should have a plane passport that has been issued by police after a through background check - no exceptions. This way, there is no need to do luggage check or airport security. In otherwords, board only reliable people, rest can take the train or bus.
3. Verify the person boarding the plane is the right person through fingerprint scans.

I hate to be an ambulance chaser, but in the wake of this tragedy, world economy will pick up due to a lot of activities in the security area. Another benefit is that the governments of different nations will start talking because everyone has a few big towers with large corporations in them. It is sad that many people had to die to galvanize the world community.

This will accelarate world government idea where everybody will work together to prevent this short of thing and to clamp down rogue governments.

However if it is a war between Christians and Moslems, then we all are screwed.

Nostredamus was a frenchy jew he was a doctor
and his entire family died and he could not cure them.
he went crazy abit(due to his family death) and turned into KABALA and other mystical jewsh stuff .
among the things that he said :
in the year 1999 or 2000 humans are gonna have an encounter/communicatins with ALIENS
(so far none of them called my cell phone they do not even e-mail me!)


the thing is that all lthe things that were told to happentrned out as happend after the fact.
like the 3rd raich thenazis used.

same as if smething in the world took place and i looked for a book that said something/descrived the same event.

Wanna keep terrorists out of the cockpit? Put a door that can't be broken by a tooless 180 pound man. If it has a window make sure it's bullet proof.

Ben

Calling this one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind is not true at all. The US has commited crimes and has done things much worse than this. Bombing countries (Yugo, Iraq), somebody say invented nuclear bombs?, nuked japan... These are only a few of the many crimes the United States has done.

Now don't get me wrong, I feel extremely bad for all the people who lost their lives today, and my condolenses to all their families, but the US has attacked many countries without being retaliated on. You see how you all feel? This is how Yugoslavians and Iraqi's felt, doesn't feel good does it? Civilians dying over matters which they cannot control.

Now, I understand all your sorrow, and its well justified, but were was this sorrow when US was attacking other countries? Now the only thing that your president and senators talk of is retaliation. Retaliation will just have more civilians die, and if a war starts many of those will be American. Being a pacifist I strongly disagree with the actions of the US with almost everything they do.

I want to bring up a point before I'm done. I just want you all to see that nobody is asking "Why did this happen?", all which they ask is "Who did this?".

Again, my condolenses to all those who lost their lives yesterday, may god have mercy on us all.

"The third great war will start when the two tall lances fall in the
great city. The day birds offer themselves up to the heavens"
- Nastradamus

That was the prophecy I found.

There is a difference between prophesising over events that might happen and making events fit prophesies.

This means all too many people might of known of such a prophesy and are quite happy to make them a reality.

From this monstrous Disaster things should be learnt to make sure events never play out this again. As some of you have stated, placing aeroplane pilots into a cabin that is seperate from the passengers is a good idea. Possibly instating New avoidance technology that avoids building and other craft collisions similar to how ground avoidance has been used.

As for buildings, you should note that the height of the building should be defined by the speed at which a person can leave from the top. Only 15 minutes to exit that top floor and get down X number of floors, any longer than 15 minutes and unfortunately as we have seen the building has the potential to collapse if fire engulfs it.

Better sprinkler systems, with a multiple number of water tanks located on each level to try and defeat flames.

As for structural engineering, maybe a redesign in buildings for how the floors are constructed, and for how much weight load each floor can take.

I know some might find that writing this might seem cold, but to cover these things could prevent a repeat occurance from just the structuring. Of course the rest is up to the Services and ally countries to define how terrorism should be tackled now.

What I do say is If the allies are to Help the US tackle this, then there are Terrorists that the Allies are having problems with too which should be countered also. Perhaps between all the allies Terrorism might well be wiped from our dictionaries.

uh the just a little note that the water tanks and improvide sprinkling system wouldn't have done anything. the planes were literally flying bombs with lots of fuel that when that fuel burns its hot enough to melt steel. thats why the buildings collapsed

The best solution is to remove the threat. Otherwise, you will live in fear and paranoia for the rest of your life. The next threat can be biological and nuclear. Keeping a tank of water will not help.

As I watch the CNN, everybody except one person wants to setup procedures to search your luggage and make it so difficult that, the airports will look like third world countries. The solution that I had in mind and agreed by that security except is to put a sky marshal in every plane and/or have trained security stewards. Otherwise every sharp object including knives, forks, big Italian guys, ball pens, computers, dress belts etc will be banned. Already one airport is trying to ban ANY carry on, including female purses.

Scotia B You have quite the nerve, posting that. Remember one thing, the only reason your country is safe is because you boarder the U.S. Because if any thing happens to the U.S. your all done.
We have to retaliate as soon as possible and with an excess of force the world has never seen. This was AN ACT OF WAR and should be treated as such.
We should use this opportunity to get rid of any and all terrorist groups we know of....
we should act as barbaric as the people that did this striking deep into the countries that harbor these groups and fund their exploits.
The time has come to point out the enemy and deal with them accordingly.
War is a violent act, but sometimes a necessary one.
watching the Palestinians on CNN dancing around celebrating. Well to say the very least made me sick and angrier then I've ever been. Sorry the kids might not know any better because they are brainwashed, but that doesn't make them an less dangerous. Innocents is not an issue, there are no innocents.
Out of the TWENTY THOUSAND possible dead, all were innocent but three to five per plane. People I don't remember the exact number, but didn't just about twenty thousand die in our civil war.

These events are tragic and cataclysmic...some real sicko must have perpetrated this fiendish action. Nonetheless...my blessing is with the USA to not screw this vengeance up: everybody wants the Americans to retaliate, but only time will tell if their(your?) method is reasonable. As I belive I mentioned earlier, a tit-for-tat reaction is not an option.

P.S. Why do I get the feeling that Clinton might have handled this differently?

P.P.S. These are also views from a teen.

Hi Ankit:

You may be right. Some say

BUSH=WAR (Both father and son...)
CLINTON=PROSPERITY

Can it be true? or just a co-incidence ?

You be the judge.

I wouldn't get too excited about the Palestinians dancing in the streets as apparently September 11th is the anniversary of the death of somebody that they all disliked (I haven't found out who yet), and thanks to the wonderful media just forgot to mention that all those people dancing really had no idea what was going on in the US. Unfortunately sometimes the media will twist things around just to get people all fired up. I'm not saying they lie, they just don't always expose the whole truth because it wouldn't be as exciting if they did. Also remember that media and internet are not even close to be as available to them as they are to us here in North America so if any of them were aware of what was going on, chances are they did not know all the facts.

Wet1 made the most valid point of patience being the most important part in all this before charging off in the wrong direction and making mistakes.

Is it possible that the same media will hound the politicians until they do something controversial so that it is in the best interest of media. That is the American Way.

There are some smart people in Washington. I hope they are being listened to.

PATMAN , I know how upset you feel. But how can you justify war. Sure the US should retaliate and punish the terrorists and anyone affiliated, but what about the innocent ones who dont want war rather world peace. Those palestinians dancing in the streets are the minority of palestine. Sure the peaceful palestinians who support the US want peace too, but they arent stupid enough to go and kill people for it. I think they should have land, given that it is a fair compromise. You cant see past your nose Patman, I really pity you. And BTW Canada has way more allies than the USA, even if the USA wasnt there we would be safe. Canada is well liked around most of the world as a peaceful and friendly nation. Bombing the US, sad and devastating as it may be, is an act of war on freedom, nothing compared to bombing Canada. Something like the CN tower. That would be an act of war on civilization, world peace, and freedom. My point.......Canada would have much better backup and support than the US could ever attain.

BTW, guess who sacrificed some lives capping all the oilwells that saddam lit on fire in kuwait. (clue; it wasnt the Americans)

Elbaz,
I won't give you my first knee jerk reaction. You had nothing to do with this. I will state that there were a lot of people involved in putting out the fires in Kuwait. I am sorry some of your countrymen where hurt of killed in the process. It is an exceeding difficult and dangerous job to deal with an oil fire.

That you have patriotism for your country is an admirable quality to be found for any countryman. That is indeed what is driving a lot of these posts. You may not agree with the viewpoints to those expressed, especially mine at the present time. But they are driven by the same feelings that you have for your country. Put yourself in their position and I think that prehaps your viewpoint might be alter a bit. What if the same terrorist had taken out their hideous designs on Canada? Not that I wish that on you. But I think it slams home the idea I express.

The terrorist hide in amoung the population and use them for cover. The first thing Saddam does after an attack is to drag the news media into the battle site to show all the hurt civilians. Because the news has its content censored before broadcast you never hear that the target was planted purposely beside a school or hospital. It is a favorite tactic to draw on the bleeding hearts to stop so that he can continue on with his plans and military machine intact. You can not seperate one from the other. It is the way that the terrorist, their government and their military think. If you would have themilitary targets then the civilians will suffer. And they are put in that situtation on purpose by their own leaders. It shows you what they think of thier populace. It is only when they can get benefit that the welfare of the citizens are dragged out.

As far as the support the US gets from the world, it has always been so. Even though the US is the largest contributor to the world in the form of relief, military protection, trade, and an endless amount of other items. I ask you, if you offered money to help some country that needed it, would you not ask for something besides the giving away of such? Like maybe, act better, or set your business up this way and we will trade. Or don't jail your dissenters and leave them to rot for nothing more than expressing their viewpoint.

In a few days I will calm back down to my normal self and not be such a hawk on this and go back to my call for sanity. And present it is the way I deal with it. More sane heads will lead the nation than I am at present and no matter what you think of Bush, he can not do it alone. It will take the combined consenses of our governmet and not just Bush by hisself that will move the wheels of justice.

Subject: America
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were lattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.

I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web.

Amen Brutha.

And this was written by a Canadian that DIDN'T have his head up his own ass. Unlike our friend Elbaz there.

--LM

Here in the UK we have had this, on a smaller scale, for 30 years and most of it has been with support from a small minority of ill informed Americans. The tragic events in America this week are on a massive scale compared with what I have seen and experienced, nevertheless, with American dollars going into Noraid etc, the PIRA have waged this terror on the decent folk of Northern Ireland since 1969. You can help US now America as we are helping you - stop funding the IRA - NOW!

Red Devil,
I can not speak for my countrymen. I can tell you that not one thin dime has come out of my pockets for such as the IRA. I am a firm believer that my dollar is a vote for what I believe in. If I and all others believe this then Microsoft and the software industry would take more time to make their products right instead of rushing them to market before they are complete.

The same can be said for political movements. If a party would resort to such tactics I for one do not support such.

Okay, I'll quit.

Very well said wet1.

I wouldn't get too excited about the Palestinians dancing in the streets as apparently September 11th is the anniversary of the death of somebody that they all disliked (I haven't found out who yet), and thanks to the wonderful media just forgot to mention that all those people dancing really had no idea what was going on in the US).

i wonder how come Arafat sent out special orders to subdue and stop any celebrations or acts of joy in the streets js after it turned out it was a terror attack.
(if no celebrations are held why does one needa send orders and officers to put a halt on them?)
i wnder how come te joy started just ater it turned out it was a terror attack?
i wonder how come pals all over leb,jordan,egypt celebrated as well.
i wonder how come pals spoke their mind about USA?
i wonder how come USA flags were burned.
i wonder how come reporters,photographers working for foreign media got threats if they dare to broadcast what they recorded in east Jerusalem and the west bank.
(Reuters and many other foreign media sources have pals as photographers and reporters since it is more cheap,they got more connections and sources,get to the scene first.
so a threat on the reporters is real and achievable)
i wonder how come a day later yaser arafat declared that a memorial hour must be held and in villages held by the HAMAS none of such took place.

face the facts.

oh and log on to irc on the dal net network /server irc.dal.net
or davis.dal.net {regular ports} try and see what goes on in the following channels #usa #palestine #israel #beirut #jordan

Calm down Radical:

USA has a history of working with the best minds in civilian and military to solve very complex problems. We are very good at it. And it shall be done - once for all. Not only we will huntdown and eliminate the threat, but remove the cause of threat for all civilized nations. The solution is not that difficult and we now have the will power to do it. - now that the terror is in our frontyard.

Our capacity is far greater than any other country (with the possible exception of China) on this planet. And this may solve the Israeli problem too.

Lordmanimal
Thank you for posting that article. It is the first I ever remember hearing an unprovoked kind word about the U.S. Most of the time it a country we just bailed out of some crap, then after a couple of months they are back to talk shit about us.
Elbaz
Save your pity, don't want nor do I need it.
I justify war by knowing thousands of innocent American civilians died in an act of war.
This was not an attack against the American war machine. This was an attack against our people, in our own country. This is and should be more so a reason to declare war on any and all terrorist groups and the countries that harbor them. It's pretty cut and dry. You probably don't know this, but when the federal building in Oklahoma was bombed everyone I talked to prayed it was one of these terrorist groups so we could finally go after them with some type of sympathetic support. Most Americans knew something like this was coming. Now that it has and we realize the magnitude of the attack. We as a hated Country in the world should prove just how hateful we can be.
The "innocent" ones that don't want war should step aside and let the U.S. do what it must. Seek out and destroy the people responsible and any and all supporters.
Canada having support around the world means nothing. Have you ever done anything to put yourselves front and center in an act that would make you hated by one group or another. Not that I recall. Even when it is a U.N. sanctioned military function, who gets the blame The United States. Their could be 20 countries involved in the action, but ultimately we are to blame. Shoulder some of that sometime and see how the world will see Canada as a nation.
So because you are a peaceful, friendly nation it would be worse to bomb you than us. Tell me how do you view the U.S.? As the monster that they do because we are people of action. That we'll fight for what we believe in anywhere in the world. Does this make it OK Because in a sense we started this.

BOMBING CANADA = BAD! They're a peaceful, friendly nation loved all over the world.

BOMBING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA = NOT AS BAD! because what we are the bad country that fights for freedom anywhere it is needed. Don't forget one thing when shit hits the fan over seas, no one is crying for Canada to help it's always the U.S. Walk a day in our shoes you with all your world wide support. You will find that the shoes don't fit because they are very big shoes to fill.
My point........ We don't need your support at all! We are very capable of doing this with minimal support from the countries surrounding Afghanistan.

BTW Guess who liberated Kuwait! (Clue; it wasn't Canada)

Have you ever done anything to put yourselves front and center in an act that would make you hated by one group or another. Not that I recall. Even when it is a U.N. sanctioned military function, who gets the blame The United States. Their could be 20 countries involved in the action, but ultimately we are to blame. Shoulder some of that sometime and see how the world will see Canada as a nation.

Well, WWII when you were still all 'we can't get involved', WWI, paying our UN dues, instigating the isolation of South Africa when others still sought the greenbacks, giving sanctuary to and smuggling US embassy satff out of Iran in 1979, UN peace-keepinf duties in Africa, Europe, the middle east, Cypress...in which many Canadians have lost their lives.

We don't have the biggest military in the world but we are always on the side of justice and peace. We don't fund terrorist organisations or bomb indiscriminately. As the biggest and most successful country in the world the US will always face threats, how it deals with them though in large part determines how many threats you face. If the US could accept it was wrong occasionally, perhaps it would have more friends. It's not always your fault you're hated, but sometimes it is.

Nicely put Kmguru and very true. The combined might of the USA, Britain and NATO should, and I hope will, put an end to terrorism for good. There will always be idiots in every country - but we can deal a massive blow to their like now - worldwide. I fear Radical is not looking at this through the clear eyes of objectivity. Like Israel, the UK has suffered many years of terrorism; now is our opportunity to deal a massive blow for democracy and the freedom for people worldwide.

First of, LORD MANIMAL AND EVERYONE I ain't the one with my head in my ass. You guys get pissed at me for wanting a more peaceful resolution, who has their heads up their asses.

You guys have no clue, your old hero benjamin franklin put it nicely though, 'either we hang together or we hang apart' By destroying a country all you would do is create more enemys. Why do you want to destroy them along with other innocents?? Why dont you want to help them as you say you help everyone, maybe financing a restructurazation of democratic government in their country or something?? All you're talking about is the same shit in a different pile -- your ever present ego. Thankyou CAPTAIN CANADA for pointing out the faults of the Americans. The only reason you libertated kuwait was because of the threat to the USA. Canada, UK, and many other good people were busy liberating countries for those countries rather than themselves. Let me remind you that AMERICANS will pretend to be canadians in travelling, to places all over the world just for good treatment. YOU CALL THAT PATRIOTISM and standing up for what you believe in??!?!?

Also I think I should share a PM that Lord Manimal sent to me



Silly canadian, egos are for countries who can afford them.


Let me remind you Lord Manimal that Canada is expected to outpace the US, The UN rates us higher than you guys, and where I live, Calgary, Alberta We are swimming in American money that buys our petro. (We are your largest supplier BTW) We are one of the few reasons you could ever consider bombing the UAE. Americans move to Canada all the time because of our values and beliefs, TAKE HOWARDSTERN for example.

Alberta has a way higher Socio economic rating and such than most US states. The only things that bring us down are the Eastern bums who mooched and still do off the fed government they voted for.
Trudeau and them stole more than 100 billion in the 80's from our province with the NEP.

Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against you Americans, and I still send my condolences. Like Captain Canada said, we dont have the biggest military's, but it doesnt matter, military isnt even everything. I still send my pity to you patman and now also lord manimal because you cant see past your noses.

Let me reitterate my part about how so many Americans go travelling, posing as Canadians. What do you have to say about that?

I think we have a bear with a sore head here? Sorry Elbaz or whatever, your in the minority here and possible well within conscription age - are you afraid to fight for democracy or are you an islamic leftie? Whilst everyone in this forum is perfectly entitled to their opinion, right or wrong, there is no need to fly off the proverbial handle - be calm, be forthright, but above all, be sensible. If you have a valid point then voice it. However a "peaceful" solution is completely out of the question the moment the first jet hit the first tower. Whoever was responsible and we all "think" we know who it was, then the consequences are on their shoulders, not mine. You can plainly see that you are in a miniscule minority but we live in a democracy therefore you have that right - even if wrong.

Red Devil,
first things first. Are you trying to say I dont want to fight for democracy? Actually if a war came (which in case you havent noticed I'm trying to prevent) then I would fight my ass off for it. But look at things this way. If there is war then nukes are gonna be used, and it doesnt matter if I fought or not because I would probably die somehow, along with everyone else. I dont want war, I want peace, In war, you have to kill 100% of your enemys and many of your own in order to get peace. But if you solved it peacefully, and diplomatically then I'm sure you'd only end up 'disposing' of the ticking time bombs. Also, if war started, all of my hard work in school would go down the drain because I would be drafted, I'm almost 16 and if war started they might have to change the conscription age to 17 or 16. When I would come back from war which would be very unlikely then I'd end up in some lower middle class job that I've tried to avoid.

Are you saying that the only way to solve this is with violence?

BTW I'm not a Muslim leftie, I'm a Jewish ambie.

John Lennon put my message nicely in that song of his....I cant remember the name of it.

Anyway if there is war, you will suffer too....dont forget.

Well ,I agree with Gordon Sinclair. I think most true Brits do. Everyone I know agrees.
There is no Gov. in the world that has not made mistakes.
They can not go back & change things, so that's that!
There are a lot of people who are saying on here that you should get the indiviuals that did it,& leave there power base in tact.
The USA already tried that & what did it get them?Bigger,better bombs on their home cities.
Radical,thanks for the updates.Very enlightening.

Calmdown everybody:

Those who want war will have a chance to fight. (If you want war, make sure you are ready to fight no matter what the cost - dont pass the buck)

Those who want peace will get their chance after we get our hands on those criminals. Now, the peace lovers should work towards a comprehensive solution while the war mongers fight.

I am sorry to say, it will get worse before it gets any better. Just be smart and prepare yourself. This time, none of you will be standing in the side lines and arguing....the incident and follow up ripples, is going to touch each of us.

Remember one of our own sciforums member is missing (Howardstern). It is too close to home, where ever you live, what ever your color, religion, or national origin.

EVIL IS HERE

Please gather your thoughts and let us have some constructive comments and opinions. May be we have something useful that the powers that be can use. (Note: these forums are monitored by NSA, CIA, Media). So be intelligent and act intelligent and let us hope the lives lost brings peace on earth and goodwill to mankind.

PEACE

Patman: Nothing justifies war, it just means more people will die. War is the mark of a country/civilization which cares more to satisfy its urges than to protect lives and respect that we all have the right to live.

This is something the US does not respect. It hass killed millions of people around the world, a large number of them civilians, showing no remorse. Just hiding behind the fact that they say it is "justified". Or possibly because they are impatient to use diplomacy and eager to use their new laser guided bombs. And to those of you who will still reply that it was justified because the country was doing bad things I have this to say. The Depleted Uranium is killing the Young and old, the young who were born after the conflict in the country, who have absolutely nothing to do with it, and they are being punished for the apathy of america.
You cannot plead ignorance on this one.


Condolenses to the families who lost their loved ones, and may the dead rest in peace.

(This attack a great trajedy, but no where near the trajedies which America itself is guilty of commiting)

Originally posted by wet1
Red Devil,
I can not speak for my countrymen. I can tell you that not one thin dime has come out of my pockets for such as the IRA. I am a firm believer that my dollar is a vote for what I believe in. If I and all others believe this then Microsoft and the software industry would take more time to make their products right instead of rushing them to market before they are complete.

The same can be said for political movements. If a party would resort to such tactics I for one do not support such.

Why is it so hard to believe? I don't know that it's true, and if it is, it definitely needs to stop. We did, however supply and train Osama bin Laden when the soviet union was invading. We don't exactly do a good job of putting honorable people in office.

I'm sorry that so many that aren't Americans are judging our actions before we've acted, but I understand where it comes from. Especially with some of the posts by my countrymen, Even though I understand that anger too. I'm also sorry that any country's citizens end up paying such a price for the behavior of their governments. I've done enough traveling to know that The United States is not looked at as "the good guy" around the world, and I'm probably being nice to us. In fact, I've often wished I could figure out a way convince Americans that wholescale repopulation of our government is necessary. Then again, that can probably be said in every country on the planet, so I'm certainly not unique.

I hope nobody gets me wrong, I love this country. I don't, however, love our leaders. I hope with every grain of will I can muster that our leaders respond in a responsible manner. I hope we're not the ones that start WWIII. In fact, I hope no one EVER starts WWIII. Our society, and I mean world society, has been feeding on itself for quite some time now though. And there's a part of me that thinks we all better brace ourselves for some really hard times in the years to come. History is full of occasions in which things have to get much worse before they get better. And I hope that our leaders in America realize how easily letting rage get the better of us could act as a catalyst to make life-and-living as we know it crumble.

I'm no expert, of course. I suppose it's possible that human society as a whole on this planet is more stable than I see it as being. I suppose I'm a bit scared about what comes next. I'm also not sure I wouldn't welcome events that would force us all to rebuild, and that scares me a bit too, because a part of me really likes the luxuries of the world I live in, even as I rebel against the endless games we humans hold so dear. I think we as a species need to do some serious "soul searching". We've forgotten the basics of being human.

The recent attacks on the US and whatever action(s) our government(s) decide to take are just a couple of the endless symptoms of a much larger sickness that emcompasses the globe. We may be the generation that's forced to begin reshaping the world. It's bound to happen sooner or later.

The things that really scare me about the whole thing is the very existence of nuclear and biological weapons. I don't even like to think about the possibility of anyone using that kind of warfare.

Alright, I surrender the floor.

When you are the richest in the world, everyone likes to take a shot at...

I am not talking about USA being the No.1....
I am talking about Bill Gates...the similarities are uncanny.

Originally posted by Elbaz

Let me reitterate my part about how so many Americans go travelling, posing as Canadians. What do you have to say about that?

Well I've never tried to claim other than American Nationality. And I've also never even heard this before. I'm not saying it's not true, it may be, there are plenty of scared animals out there. I've just never heard of it.

I'd also like to say that I stand up for what I believe in. And that I believe in America. And that this often means I have to stand up against my government, albeit carefully, my government does not have a friendly history toward revolutionaries.

I stand proud to be American wherever I am. And sometimes I feel shamed the by the actions of our government. Sometimes even by the behavior of our masses. It's true that most of us don't pay attention to world news and couldn't really care less what's going anywhere but within a 100 mile radius of our homes, but that's not entirely our fault. We are not readily supplied with world issues (even pertinent issues for that matter) , the information is easy enough to get, but we have to look for it. And our society really, really likes the easy life. But none of this makes us bad people. Mostly we're a pretty friendly loving people.

I don't know what I'm getting at. I think it just bothers me that I see so many general statements being thrown around in all directions. I think it also bothers me that so many generalizations become true when you get large groups of people together.

We seem like an intelligent species but large groups, the opposite sex and fear of the unknown consistently make a bunch of babbling, slaughtering idiots.

And what bothers me most is that I don't have the slightest idea how to overcome that enemy. It seems to me that "mob mentality" is our worst enemy, but how do you combat it? It's so tricky, because each and every individual has to be aware their own emotions and their communities' combined emotions at the same time lest one runs away with the other without conscious direction.

I have never heard this before and certainly have never met an American who claimed to be anything other than what they are - US Citizens. One thing I will say is the well publicized refusal of American Citizens to travel to the UK during the Gulf War - citing possible terrorist attacks and other attacks on London as excuses. Sylvester Stallone (the mighty RAMBO!) was one such. The fact that nothing like that has ever happened, apart from our own home bred, American funded, IRA. One person my daughter was in chat with did not even know that the IRA was a terrorist organisation! Just what world history (versions therein) do you learn in your schools? How many of you Americans know that, back in 1969, the British Army were sent to Northern Ireland to protect the Nationalists from the Loyalists? The Catholics from the Protestants? The Catholic backed PIRA, almost extinct, suddenly turned on the Army as an excuse - not for religious purposes nor political, but because they liked playing with guns and saw the Army as an "invader" and used that as an excuse. Sein Fein, the political wing of the IRA, is made up of mostly ex gunmen, who got sick of the troubles and decided to try it our way, through the ballot box. They may have changed their methods but still have blood on their hands. On the other side of the table we have the Loyalist Organisations, one or two just as bad as the PIRA and just as bloody intransigent! America is our ally and always will be, but some misguided fools in the USA pay Noraid etc to fund the gun and the bullet and not the ballot box. We are your friends but we can't understand why you pay someone to bomb and shoot at us!

I would say that I am starting to come to grips with the WTC and Pentagon tragedies. I am still fluxuation a bit but I shall find stable ground in a bit.

I agree with felix in that I am proud to be an American. I fI were born in England I would be proud to be British. It is a matter of where your nationality is. I am not proud of our politicians. Some of our leaders do right and some don't. What really gives me a head of steam about them is when they play at politics and party lines. Instead of unilateral actions as was displayed when agreeing to enact the war powers clause, when it comes to the country it is game playing time. As is witnessed with the tax rebate and what followed. This I have a hard time accepting and usually blame both sides while they are playing the blame game. At times I would empty the fedral government of all encumbents and replace them with new in hopes of a better deal after the shuffle. In ways it appears that we have reached a point of diminishing returns with the present group in power.

Elbaz,
I find nothing wrong with wanting to settle this peacefully. Only that road has been gone down before, over and over until there is nothing but ruts in the road. Talking will not settle this one. I for one have never claimed to be anything but American. At any time. I have served in our military forces and have met Canadians during NATO excersizes. They are good people and I have no bones to pick with any of you for being Canadian. It is not a disease to be of any nationality, including American. I see no alternative but to seek these terrorist out as no amount of diplomancy works.

Wet1,

I'm glad to see that you take pride in your country. It's a quality to admire. You have to take pride in the accomplishments of your people. I respect that. But those who do, do it, would never admit to it in the country they were staying in, or to other Americans. That would just be stupid. But if you know a Canadian there too, then it's alright to tell them because what would care. It would be a compliment to us. Most of the time it doesnt happen, but make no mistake, it has happened and probably will continue to happen. Posing Canadian may have it's benefits. People just think of us as friendlier, although We both know that there isnt much of a difference in our two cultures. I hear most of these stories coming from travellers to Holland. They tell me that the people there really respect Canadians because the Canadians liberated them in WWII. Do not mistake me, though, as a moron, because I know they are a friendly and open minded peoples.

BTW this might be a good time to point out something that's pissed me off for years: when any other nationality than Canada has an accomplishment, its all over the news. You think of the first to cross the atlantic, what comes to mind-------spirit of st. louis right? well fyi to the Americans.....Canadians did it first. Only difference was that they had 2 people on the plane. Did you guys know that??? Or who invented the phone or why the white house is white.

I'll tell you why -------- it used to be called the excecutive mansion and it was pink. But in 1812 the Canadians came down and burnt it. All that was left was the stone frame, so you guys white washed it, and the rest is history. Neat fact, eh.

My social teacher last year was telling me and my class about all the canadian inventors and influences, that we never heard of, exept for their brilliant influences. I'll try to get more examples for you guys later. I cant remember most of it now.

Getting back on topic, I never said to just talk to these guys. I think that the best thing to do is put them in prison for life. Find the government who helped them ( if there is one ) and restructure it into a true democracy. Put the ones responsible into prison for life, and institue a meagerly funded marshall plan.

Reduce the threat to almost nothing, by doing the same to any affiliation.

Let me make my point again, I know diplomacy does not work but I also know that by killing too many people and destroying governments is enough to spark a deadly wwIII. Such an event no doubtably has the means to kill 1/3 the human population of earth, not mentioning the effects it would have to the Earth itself; eg earthquake creating machines, first proposed by Nikolai Tesla.

I'd rather deal with these terrorists and the problem of overpopulation peacefully and integrally, as we should be the adults in this situation. If we help them beget a WWIII, then we will loose far more, than if we act prudently.

Nice thought on imprisoning everyone Elbaz but you have to understand the political situation there. First I wish it would be that easy but there are other factors the people of that country would most likely create mobs and rioting if we just walked in there and took over. Second who do you have run the country? Most likely people of that nation won't because we would be changing their society and culture and besides we don't have the reasources to fund an other country.
The reality is that we can't just be ingorant and think the terroists have made their point and will stop now because we see it. No these people are dangerous and willing to take their own lives for their cause. so even if we go into their country and take over they would probably set off a nuke killing us and them at the same time. I agree with what Bush plans to do( scary i usually don't like his ideas), but with the help of the rest of the world we can clean up this scum, with a probable loss of life and move on to create a better world.


smll note- i didn't know you guys had planes back before or in the tweenties i did research on planes back then and they were not into actual devolpement untill after wwI which was in 1918. I didn't know that the wright bros made and sold planes to other counties well i don't know for sure i could be wrong that was a while ago when i did the research.

I too have served in my country's military, and in Northern Ireland, although I hasten to admit not "in the front line" but nevertheless IN there when it was dirty. I have seen terrorism at first hand and believe me, you cannot negotiate with the terrorist - it is something against what they think they are doing. I have been car bombed, had mortar shells fired at me, and lost comrades. Two were bomb disposal - they died protecting the ordinary perosn on the street, whilst the perpetrator of the murder was standing in a bar in the Republic, drinking and laughing with his contemporarys about how well they did today. Diplomacy is always the best solution but, in some cases, and especially this one, no amount of diplomacy will work. Diplomacy, in the minds of these extremists, is a gun of the feeble minded. I applaud your sentiments Elbaz, as we in the free world, are entitled to Free Speech and Freedom of Thought. The Terrorist does not like that; he/it wants it their way or blow the planet up! Unfortunately, the best terrorist is a dead one - and I don't care how many "martyrs" are created; martyrs cannot kill again. If the USA allows terrorism to win in this case, then we can kiss democracy and your basic freedom goddbye. Please don't forget one important thing - the money used by terrorists in Northern Ireland is the $$$ - food for thought.

Elbaz
I have no problem with Canada or your feelings of diplomacy. I don't agree with the fact that an American would pose as anyone but an American. But If it's true that's fine. If you as a Canadian went into Afghanistan as a Canadian you would probably be treated much the same as an American, you would die.
Sorry your history is not known world wide. I really don't care that you made the first Trans-Atlantic flight. I don't care that the White house is white or why.
I don't care that we as a country are not squeaky clean not my cross to bare. Tell me your country never did anything it didn't regret. All this aside we still have to crush terrorism once and for all. It is a plague on the free world! As plenty have mentioned diplomacy WILL NOT WORK! This is the chance to do what we can to crush it.
The big problem they as a people will not let us walk in and tell them this is how you you are going to run things from now on. They don't even want us involved. They won't let us restructure their part of the world.
Let he whom is without sin cast the first stone.
guess what no stones will fly we are all guilty of something.
ScotiaB
Rational transaction. Their lives to save ours! Simple!
Red Devil
Sorry for what you've dealt with, if it helps I would like to say that with this action I think we should rid the world of any and all terrorism world wide. Don't fully understand IRA or their cause. But either way terrorism should not be tolerated anywhere!

I agree that terrorism should be fought. And the only way to get rid of current terrorists may be with guns. But guns alone cannot put an end to terrorism. In most cases, it is bad diplomacy that starts it.

Conquerers always eventually have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Or the actions of their predecessors. You cannot expect a conquered people to like it. If the powerful will not listen to the weak, the weak might rise up and fight. And by the very fact that they are weak and facing a powerful foe, they are forced to fight by any means possible. I'm not sure I can say I would do differently in similar circumstances. Someone who has already lost everything has nothing to lose by fighting.

Putting an end to terrorism is going to take open ears and open minds. Not just "open fire".

Very wise felix. Are you an ex-CIA that has seen the land of the enemy? I sincerely hope that our government and the governments of the world create an environment to eradicate the cause of terrorism. Otherwise we will see bigger problems in very near future.

And it will not be easy. For example the people of Iraq and Iran, blame US for thier economy. Even a lot of people from Pakistan blame the US due to US economic embargo. You are not talking about a few hundred present terrorists today and making surgical strikes to kill them. There are atleast 400 million unhappy people that blame US for everything including why their dog died. And when you eliminate a few, they have relatives that will fill the gap.

It will take 10 years to improve the quality of life for these people. We should start now, while looking for justice. It has to be a comprehensive plan. Every one is at risk specially UK.

The only language a terrorist understands is Aggression.
10 years ago, when a certain Administration took over, the Military started "Down-Sizing." They incorporated sensitivity training so we could have a "Kind-dler and Gentle-tler" military to attract the new generation of soft/slacker youth. All the while, these terrorists were over in the desert eating scorpions and buring the American Flag. WE're spoiled! We're no were near as tough as our parents and Granparents were and had to be.
If we don't respond swiftly and harshly, we are going to start losing pieces of the Freedom Puzzle. What's the Freedom Puzzle?
Being able to express freely, are opinions on this Forum. Walking out of are dwellings with no paranoia, carefree with a sense security. Having the choice to strive for financial, religious, and/or sociological excellence. Etc, etc, etc!

And this is not just a US problem! There were many other countries that suffered loses. Britain lost over 300 countrymen.

This is and is going to be a NATO extermination of terrorism. Right now as we speak CIA, NSA, FBI, French Foreign Legion, British Intelligence, Special Forces, NATO Special Forces, and Etc. are in action. Laying down the foundation and doing the homework so we(US,NATO) can go kick BUTT!

So what am I trying to say?

Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion........................................... ............................................of course as long as you have the right(or is it a luxury?? :eek: ) to express it.

Thank you for your time,
Andrew Alexander, FC2(SW), U.S. Navy

:D GOD BLESS AMERICA :D

I am all for kicking butt and Freedom...as long as Americans are not killing other Americans in the name of Terrorists!
(Which has already started)

Airplanes were used in WWI. They used to get shot down by soldiers and other airplane fighters. I think the Red Baron fought in WWI and shot down 80 Planes for the Axis before getting shot down himself. I also think that Australia began building planes before cars since we used to build them for the war. Or it might have been our plane industry was bigger than out car industry.

I never said this would be easy
The people in these regions are very divided in their loyalties and who they trust. To say the least we're not high on any of their lists. Yes, it will take years to change things for the better. But as I said before restructuring their countries can only happen if they want our help. And worse still we have enemies everywhere even the countries that are friendly to us have underlying resentment for the United States. This could very well become a lot more than a search and destroy mission. It would be easier if there was a strong government in place that we could back and restore full power to, but they're holding on by a thread themselves and do we really want this to be the ruling body. Allegiances' change very quickly in this area so it will be difficult no matter what. I feel bad for the soldiers that will have to fight this war because it is strangely going to seem a lot like Vietnam in a desert, not knowing who the enemy is and trust me when I say this they will use their children for suicide bombings, as human shields, and as soldiers. A 9 year old shooting at you is still your enemy. And also remember that 9 year old will grow up and be more dangerous to the free world. It not their fault granted but we also can't send over hundreds of therapists to get to root of their anger issues. So don't be horrified when they all start crying that their children are being killed because they will be and with good reason. They are not children they are in fact soldiers and should be treated as such. I feel the deepest sympathy for our soldiers that will have to live with this fact for the rest of their lives.

Here in the UK we are going to be worse off the the USA if all this goes ahead. Because of our governments pathetic policies on immigration etc we are riddled with these *******. Even our law sides with these people. At a mosque in London, we have seen pro bin laden supporters screaming against us! And our pathetic people allow it!! This country deserves to sink without trace - I was once proud of my nation, to be English, not any more, I wish I could come to the States!

I think that everyone forgets that the main aim of the muslims is to convert the world to Islam.
Remember,the taliban were willing to kill their own people in Afghanistan,in order to enforce their extreme brand fo Islam.
Their mullers & clerics want absolute power in the name of"God".
The terrorists believe they will envoke the fear of the west by using suicide tactics-it seems that every one has forgotten the suicidal actions of the British soldiers during World wars 1 + 2 - walking straight towards the enemy across the bloody battlefields,armed only with a rifle wave after wave of men walking towards almost certain death.
I am sure the American soldiers did as well.

Actually Odin, after the American War of Independence, several centuries, and WW1 we (the British Army) finally learnt our lesson and did not advance, rifles ready, towards the enemy like that in WW2 - it took a while but we learnt! For Some Guy - if there were no planes in WW1 what did the Red Baron (Richtofen) fly in - a broomstick? Oh and Snoopy too! :D

In any society, there are people who are willing to sacrifice their life for a cause. To their perspective, it is a noble cause as with Japanese during the WWII. So Moslems are not any better or worse than anybody else.

Every religion wants to convert to create a homogenized society. The best solution is to embrace and assimilate to a common culture and not common religion. Until people learn that, we will continue to have these problems all over the world.

Why did Spike Milligan say in his memoirs that he thought he was lucky as he watched the soldiers walk past in a long stream,to go up to the front to fight hand to hand with only their Lee Enfeild's during WW11
He also said,he saw almost none come back.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
:-:George Bernard Shaw:-:

To feed men and not to love them is to treat them as if they were barnyard cattle. To love them and not respect them is to treat them as if they were household pets.
:-:Mencius:-:

- Keep your clothes and your weapons where you can find them in the dark -

- Lazarus Long

A slight conflict of interpretation here. Marching to the front, as described by Spike is not exactly the same as mentioned by yourself which gave me the impression that you were refering to them "crossing the battlefield" marching towards the enemy - which of course only fools would do! I was just querying your phraseology, thats all. :rolleyes:

Keep your clothes and your weapons where you can find them in the dark.

Mine has an active laser sight. I should be OK.

Originally posted by kmguru


Mine has an active laser sight. I should be OK.

:-). I hope so, kmguru. But that laser sight isn't always on, is it? You still have to be able to find it in the dark. And don't forget about your clothes, you don't want to die of exposure. And fighting naked sucks.

I will get some warning to put clothes on. I have three big dogs that occasionally take down deers for dinner when we forget to buy their food from Wal-Mart.

With night vision equipment and infrared TV cameras, we are set. - and so are my neighbors. :D

Originally posted by kmguru
With night vision equipment and infrared TV cameras, we are set. - and so are my neighbors. :D
You must live on the bayous? Sounds like an armed camp?
Me, my time in the Air Force showed me that some people can really be gun-crazy, that they & planes are deadly & that I would rather not have one. Though I wouldn't mind living in a converted DC-9, like I saw on TV once.

All I have are a couple of swords, but I can find them in the dark.


Now all I have to do is learn to keep quiet when I stub my toe on the door jam.

It is more in a country setting. We always have deer, armadilo, rabbits show up backyard.

Sheesh! I'm surounded by survivalist. I haven't followed the whole of this thread, but after reading the last few posts, I'm wondering, are you guys really frightened by recent events? All I feel is anger.

frightened? Nay!
Aware? Yes

My personal motto is: I do not start a fight, but I can finish one - no matter how long or how many generation it takes.

The word is Tenacity. If our country had that ever since the Israeli peace accord, we would not be in this shape today!

Just got this in an e-mail !
The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11
September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11
After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.
119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11
Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like the number 11
The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11


State of New York - The 11 State added to the Union
New York City - 11 Letters
Afghanistan - 11 Letters
The Pentagon - 11 Letters
Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted for orchestrating the attack on the
WTC in 1993)
Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11
Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

funny that
:confused:

No, I'm not afraid about the recent events. At least, not any more so than before.

I believe in "know fear" instead of "no fear".

I don't believe we should walk through life being afraid, though.

I like to walk through life with my head up, and my eyes, ears, nose and mind, open.

I'm just aware that anything really can happen, any time.

And I've been in situations that scared the hell out of me. And I've learned that recognizing fear for what it is (knowing it), and acting without letting emotions get the better of you (panic), can greatly increase you're chances of staying live.

I'm not really a "survivalist", that word kind of carries a strange conotation with it. But I do think it's a good idea to be able to stay alive in whatever situation might find yourself in. I also know that the time will probably come when there's nothing I can about it. Unless, of course, I can figure out how to live forever :-).

Originally posted by odin
Just got this in an e-mail !
The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11
September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11
After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.
119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11
Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like the number 11
The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11


State of New York - The 11 State added to the Union
New York City - 11 Letters
Afghanistan - 11 Letters
The Pentagon - 11 Letters
Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted for orchestrating the attack on the
WTC in 1993)
Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11
Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

funny that
:confused:

Also 11 years since Desert Storm started. Or maybe it was just "Sheild" in 1990. I can' t remember, now. But I know it was officially starting in '90.

That's a lot of 11's, yep. I wonder if it actually means anything, other than someone's got a lot of arithmatical (is that a word?) time on their hands.

Any one have any idea why "11" might hold some symbolic meaning? Should that be a different thread? Man, I've got brain static tonight.

i thought now would be a good time to drag these threads out of mothballs

I got your email thingy. I tried to find examples of the numbers 7 & 9 and found just as many

i thought now would be a good time to drag these threads out of mothballs

Well, next one could be nuclear...anyone is thinking in that direction? Get your crystal ball out of the mothball.....:D

Unfortunately many people died on 9/11 due to negligence/arrogance on the part of NYC officials.

Before anyone accusses me of 'blasphemy' consider this.
In 1993 a group of people constructed a very powerful car bomb (with the full knowledge of federal law enforcement officials who actually video taped some of their meetings through an inside informant) and left it in one of the parking garages under the WTC. After exploding - thousands of people in the towers either escaped on their own or were evacuated by the frontline heros of the FDNY and NYPD - not their brass.
Those who struggled down the 'firestairs' faced blindness and impaired lung function due to the choking black smoke, lack of emergency lighting and no emergency air ventilation. According to TV news reports the last person didn't make it out until 7 hours later.
Their escape was also hampered by the narrowness of these stairs - totally inadequate for 2-way foot traffic but 'approved' by NYC officials.

Immediately after viewing this event I wrote to (then) Mayor David Dinkins offering an engineering plan which would prevent a repeat of these conditions - should there ever be a need to evacuate the towers in future. Rather than address my letter - it was passed on to the 'Chief of Operations' of the FDNY. For his family's sake I won't reveal his name. Besides, he was reportedly killed in the collapse of one of the towers.
This engineering plan included low-wattage battery powered (windpower recharged) LED lighting and ventilation fans in each stairwell to both remove smoke and provide outside air (to escapees inside the stairwells).
Rather than increase the width of the stairs themselves - which would necessitate reconstruction of the entire stairwells and surrounding floorspace - my plan called for installation of 2 dedicated fire hardened shafts (at opposite corners of each tower for redundancy) in-which fabric chutes would be installed. These 'fire chutes', made of Kevlar (strong as steel) and Nomex (fire resistant) were already installed in many high-rise buildings around the world and are in-fact mandatory under the fire codes of some nations.
A site demonstrating their function can be viewed at this URL. (http://www.escapeconsult.com/)

One might believe fire fighters would welcome such a system, proven to save lives, as (through building occupants' self-evacuation) it would free them to concentrate on fighting fires. (as in 'fire fighters'?)
Unfortunately the FDNY Chief of Operations felt differently, judging by his written reply, in-which he extolled the virtues of their radio 'command and control' system (the same one which condemned many fire fighters to their deaths on 9/11 through a lack of communications?) and a device known as a 'Lorenzo's Ladder'. I spoke to a few FDNYers who live locally and they all claimed no one has ever used this 'ladder' in any fire and no one ever would.
Perhaps most telling of official negligence was the line in the chief's letter where he essentially stated "Don't call us - we'll call you". Of course his words were more diplomatic but I got the message.

George W Bush and 'Rummy' sent our loved ones to Afganistan and Iraq under false pretenses - that's been confirmed. Now we've also learned they CHOSE to send them into harm's way without the proper tools to do their jobs OR the necessary protection needed to safeguard them until their return.
Kind of reminds me of the 'advisors' sent to 'Nam with M-15 rifles and boots devoid of steel shanks. The former jammed after a few shots and the latter where easily punctured by posioned 'punji sticks'.
Helio crews resorted to placing steel plates under their rears in their Hueys and APC crews rode on-top (with sandbags), rather than inside their 'armor' because the AK-47 slugs passed right through.
Infantry patrols, which had previously followed in the footsteps of villagers on paths bordering the bush (into which they could take cover when attacked), were ordered by armchair generals (back in 'The World') to walk abreast through rice paddys - leaving them exposed with no cover at-all AND more subject to mines.
Promotions (and pay raises) were determined, in large part, by 'body counts. Civilian, ARVN or Cong: After awhile it didn't seem to matter WHICH bodies were counted so long as the numbers were high. Is it any surprise, then, some US troops in Iraq are being tried for murder?

The biggest difference is communications. Back in 'Nam we had the TV people reporting from Highway 1 but their stories had to pass through military censors (i.e.: 'Good morning Vietnam!'). Today anyone with a camcorder can 'record' whatever they choose, download it to a lap-top and beam it to the world via a satellite phone uplink to be viewed on 'YouTube' from anywhere on the face of the planet.

Never forget - it's always the old men who start the wars leaving the young ones to fight and die in them. The same applies to municiple agencies.

Thou

Shalt

Not

Commiteth

Thread Necromancy

Thus Sayeth The Prince.

Unfortunately many people died on 9/11 due to negligence/arrogance on the part of NYC officials. A reference to a pair of spherical objects comes to mind!

Thou

Shalt

Not

Commiteth

Thread Necromancy

Thus Sayeth The Prince.
Whats wrong with that?

If your refering to my post, see the quote.

Nickoldeon:

Dead threads from 5 years ago rarely have anyone still around to discuss them. It is the equivalent of making a comeback to a joke that someone made the year before. It's time is done. It's a disturbance to the forum.

Dead threads from 5 years ago rarely have anyone still around to discuss them. It is the equivalent of making a comeback to a joke that someone made the year before. It's time is done. It's a disturbance to the forum.

That is exactly how the bosses of our Intelligence Community think. To them, past is not an indicator for the future. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing depends on who is carrying the revenge....

and crypto13, welcome to the reality.

Nickoldeon:

Dead threads from 5 years ago rarely have anyone still around to discuss them. It is the equivalent of making a comeback to a joke that someone made the year before. It's time is done. It's a disturbance to the forum.
Whats wrong with other people continuing to discuss them? There are some threads that keep repeating themselves, and some good older stuff. I dont see it as a disturbance at all. Ideas are ideas. There isnt a time limit on their validity.

At least, there is news about WTC, They started the foundation for the new freedom tower. It will take little more than 5 years, it will be completed, in 2012, or 2013. Krakatoa.

Thou
Shalt
Not
Commiteth
Thread Necromancy
Thus Sayeth The Prince.normally, I would agree, but this traumatic event needs to be exorcized from the collective American & world psyche

demonic mindset of the perpetrators
the evil perpetrated there
badly designed buildings
the incompetence of our leaders
(dept, agencies, city, state, military, federal)
poorly designed systems
(escape, radio, co-ordination)
poorly trained first responders

what about care for all those with lung probs &/or PTSS?

aftermath
what have we learned
what have we done
what will we do?

aftermath
what have we learned

1.Using airplane as a missile is a bad thing.
2. Need to improve structural integrity of tall buildings in large cities
3. The first responders need training for major disasters, whether it is manmade or asteroid strike. Standing around in a ready to collapse building is not a good idea.
4. Find a solution for quick evacuation of people in tall buildings besides jumping.
5. Find a solution to fight large fires in tall buildings.
6. Terrorists now know our weakness


what have we done

Not much. But we are building a new tower daring the family members of the terrorists to knock it off.

what will we do?

Same as before

Nickoldeon:

Dead threads from 5 years ago rarely have anyone still around to discuss them. It is the equivalent of making a comeback to a joke that someone made the year before. It's time is done. It's a disturbance to the forum.
You sound like Darth Vader,
"I sense a great disturbance in the forum"


Or maybe it was Obi Wan Kenobi?

You sound like Darth Vader,
"I sense a great disturbance in the forum"


Or maybe it was Obi Wan Kenobi?

ok, I wasn't gona say anything about that statement, just felt he was in training as a jeti knight