I have a friend who looks down on nice people. He considers them weak and he can't resist 'hurting' them. He has no respect for them.

Is niceness just a Christian relic?

People seem to respect harsh people more than nice ones.

Why? How?

Whatchathink?

1) Decency was around a long time before organised religions.

2) I don't respect cruel or mean people.

Decency was around a long time before organised religions.

Good point.

And decency is perhaps a better word than niceness. (which is probably not even a word)

Why do you think this friend feels the need to be cruel?

People want to be loved.
If they are not loved, they want to be respected.
If they are not respected, they want to be feared.
If they are not feared, they want to be despiced.

Hans

It takes more strength to be nice often than it does to be an ass.

That may be, but then why is cruelty respected more?

Who's it respected by? And what people are being respected for being cruel?

I can't think of a time cruelty is respected except maybe in a completely fascist state or by little 10 year old boys.

Although, the business world comes close. Things like deceit, hidden agendas, and extreme egoism is respected here. Why? Not sure, lemme go ask some people...

*Spelling edit

See the first post: my friend does not apreciate nice people. He considers them weak. He respects people like him: harsh, cruel. I don't think he is an exceptional case.

A reply could be: then drop the loser. Well, that's the second thing: the cruel person gets a lot of credit. He is respected for acting the way he does. A nice person gets ditched by his friends much quicker.

Why the different limits?

Being a ruthless ass is respected in business mainly because alligning yourself with the ruthless makes you more likely to be successful.

Assholes are respected in real life god only knows why. Thinking about the respected assholes in my school I seem to recognize that every ass that's respected tends to have some other outsanding quality about him that other people like in a person. Such as musical/artistic taste (or, what I would call, no taste). Being something of an ass myself (though, not nearly in the way you describe your friend ass) I can tell you that I think some people respected and loved me, others hated me and could not stand me; but all of them had an interest in me. Very few people can I think of who hold no opinion on me.

By the way, your friend is just plain wrong. If he has to make a point to put down others who have the ability to be nice around him than he either has problems dealing with his own personality or is just a weak person who can only feel strong by trying to make others feel weak. That's my guess, anyway.

Nice will get you tolerance.
Honesty will get you respect.
Honest is more imporant than nice.

Indiscriminate cruelty is just stupid, all that will get you is lots and lots of personal space :)

Depends on the term "nice." May it be a girl or guy. Nice guys don't get far. They aren't in control, demanding, they are more usually inferior.

They:

Supplicate
Seek approval
Are desperate
Needy
Clingy
Can't do well on their own
etc. (you get the point)

Like I said, it depends on what you consider "nice." That list, if I see all those traits in a man or woman, I consider them nice people.

Nice people could easily be walked over by other people. Nice people don't walk over nice people. :D

This all relates to psychology and the Don Juan philosophy, which so far has NOT been debunked.

It's all about demonstrating value, challenge, confidence, etc.

CONFIDENCE is the main issue here that separates the nice guys. They have none and in order to succeed in life you need to have confidence and high self-esteem and self-worth.

Basically, powerlessness is a sorry state of affair that everyone tries to avoid. The more powerless you are, the less respect you get.

Our culture may brainwash the weak minded to think this and that, but most of the time, our culture is full of bullshit.

Take a look at history, religion seriously affect how our cultures all over the world are. Premarital sex is evil? How many women think that yet have oral sex, etc? Sexual activity *is* sex.

Religion is dying and more people are no longer brainwashed and acquire "tunnel vision."

Chosen, Don Juan takes a very interesting definition of nice.

Here is what I consider a nice human being;
- courteous
- polite
- thoughtful
- mindful

What you are talking about is the stereotypical "nice-guy" or "the perenial friend". The guy who every girl wants to chum around with but would never want to be romantically involved in.

Originally posted by Tyler
Chosen, Don Juan takes a very interesting definition of nice.

Here is what I consider a nice human being;
- courteous
- polite
- thoughtful
- mindful

What you are talking about is the stereotypical "nice-guy" or "the perenial friend". The guy who every girl wants to chum around with but would never want to be romantically involved in.

Yep, no romantic involvement.

Your definition of "nice" is my definition of a gentleman.

Ah, yes, well that would make sense!

~The_Chosen~,

I don't think what you said is the niceness A4ever is inquiring about. Sometimes you should take a break from Don Juan website and think for yourself.

Originally posted by Joeman
~The_Chosen~,

I don't think what you said is the niceness A4ever is inquiring about. Sometimes you should take a break from Don Juan website and think for yourself.

Who gets hurt? The nice guys or the harsh guys?

Who's easier "push-over"? The nice guys or what?

Who do you think could take care of themselves better? The strong guy or the nice guy? hmmm...

Think for myself? :rolleyes: I'm thinking what's best for myself. I had two options, open my mind to the Don Juan mindset or be brainwashed and "nice guy" for life. :)

You're almost out of that tunnel Joeman...keeping going see that light? follow it!....:D :cool:

Originally posted by A4Ever
I have a friend who looks down on nice people. He considers them weak and he can't resist 'hurting' them. He has no respect for them.

He shouldn't hurt them. But then again if you "help" them, it'll work against you. They'll see that they are actually "weak" and hate you for showing them the truth.

Some accept their own errors and look at themselves, the mirror of truth, then become successful for it.

Others refuse to see the light, they are weak, the truth "hurts" too much for them to consider it. Thus, they are stuck in that little tunnel for the rest of their lives.


Is niceness just a Christian relic?

They could be related. But religion has seriously influneced our culture and how we percieve things. Society, the media, etc. all have their effects at brainwashing.


People seem to respect harsh people more than nice ones.

Usually, you could associate "harsh" with "powerful." Mostly everyone respects the powerful.


Why? How?

Very interesting question. It's all about value and self-respect. The more you respect yourself, the more others will respect you. Do you think nice guys respect themselves? Aren't they those unconfident bunch?

Who gets farther in life? Who is more dependable and capable? The nice-shy guy or the confident high self-esteem guys?


Whatchathink?

That's what is my perception :cool:

Note to HOEMAN!! :D

The Don Juan is a way of life. It's how you should live. In control of your destiny, yourself. Not being weak, being strong. It is about getting women (instinct) but it is not all about that.

Most people believe "it's all luck" if anything right? Wrong, those that succeed, make things happen, they are confident in what they do. That is the Don Juan mindset.

See the light yet? :D

Being pleasent in general is a sigh of emotional maturity. Being rude and lacking manners in ones personality shows emotional issues and lack of maturity, in my opinion!

This is what I think;


THE SIX PILLARS OF CHARACTER

Be honest • don’t deceive, cheat or steal • be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country
Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences •Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others •Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements
Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • be accountable for your choices
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • be open-minded; listen to others• don’t take advantage of others • don’t blame others carelessly
Be kind • be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need
Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate •Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment

1. TRUSTWORTHINESS
When we are trusted others give we because they do not feel they need contracts to assure that we will meet our obligations. They believe in us. That is satisfying. But there’s a downside: we must constantly live up to the expectations of others and refrain from competitive, self-serving behavior that tarnishes if not destroys relationships, both professional and personal. Simply refraining from lies and deception is not enough. Trustworthiness is the most complicated of the six core ethical values and concerns a variety of behavioral qualities — qualities like honesty, integrity, reliability, and loyalty.
Honesty
There is no more fundamental ethical value than honesty. We associate honesty with people of honor, and we admire and trust those who are honest. However, honesty is a broader concept than many may realize. Honesty in communications requires a good-faith intent to convey the truth as best we know it and to avoid communicating in a way likely to mislead or deceive.
There are three dimensions:
Truthfulness —The obligation of truthfulness precludes intentional misrepresentation of fact (lying). Intent is the crucial distinction between truthfulness and truth itself. Being wrong is not the same thing as being a liar, although honest mistakes can still damage trust insofar as they may show sloppy judgment.
Sincerity/non-deception
The obligation of sincerity precludes all acts, including half-truths, out-of-context statements, and even silence that are intended to create beliefs or leave impressions that are untrue or misleading.
Candor
In relationships involving legitimate expectations of trust, honesty may also require candor, forthrightness, and frankness, imposing the obligation to volunteer information that another person needs to know.
Honesty in conduct prohibits stealing, cheating, fraud, subterfuge, and other trickery. Cheating is a particularly foul form of dishonesty because one not only seeks to deceive but to take advantage of those who are not cheating. It is a two-far: It is a violation of trust and fairness. Not all lies are unethical, even though all lies are dishonest. Huh? That is right, honesty is not an inviolate principle. Occasionally dishonesty is ethically justifiable, as when the police lie in undercover operations or when one lies to criminals or terrorists to save lives, But don’t kid yourself: occasions for ethically sanctioned lying are rare and require serving a very high purpose indeed, — not hitting a management, -pleasing sales target, or winning a game, or avoiding a confrontation. We are talking saving a life, that sort of thing.
Integrity
The word integrity comes from the word integer, meaning “one”, or wholeness. This means there are no divisions in an ethical person’s life, no difference in the way she makes decisions from situation to situation, no difference in the way she acts at work and at home, in public and alone. At one time or another, we all have allowed our behavior to depart from our conscience or to vary according to locale. Even so, almost all of us have lines we will not cross; our challenge is to draw the line around the Pillars, because she must know who she is and what she values, the person of integrity takes time for self-reflection, so that the events, crises and seeming necessities of the day do not determine the course of her moral life. She stays in control. She may be courteous, even charming, but she is never duplicitous. She never demeans herself with obsequious behavior toward those she thinks might do her some good. She is trusted because you know who she is: what you see is what you get.
The four enemies of Integrity:
Self-interest
Things we want
Self-protection
Things we do not want
Self-deception
A refusal to see a situation clearly
Self-righteousness
An end-justifies-the-means attitude



Reliability (Promise-Keeping)
When we make promises or other commitments that create a legitimate basis for another person to rely upon us to perform certain tasks, we undertake moral duties that go beyond legal obligations. The ethical dimension of promise keeping imposes the responsibility of making all reasonable efforts to fulfill our commitments. Because promise-keeping is such an important aspect of trustworthiness, it is important to: Avoid bad-faith excuses— Honorable people interpret their contracts and other commitments in a fair and reasonable manner and not in a way designed to rationalize noncompliance or create justifications for escaping commitments. Avoid unwise commitments— Be cautious about making commitments that create ethical obligations. Before making a promise consider carefully whether you are willing and likely to keep it. Think about unknown or future events that could make it difficult, undesirable, or impossible. Sometimes, all we can do is promise to do our best.
Avoid unclear commitments— Since others will expect you to live up to what they think you have promised to do, be sure that, when you make a promise, the other person understands what you are committing to do.
Loyalty
Loyalty is a special moral responsibility to promote and protect the interests of certain people, organizations, or affiliations. This duty goes beyond the normal obligation we all share to care for others. Some relationships — husband-wife, employer-employee, and citizen-country — create an expectation of allegiance, fidelity, and devotion. Limitations to Loyalty— Loyalty are a tricky thing. It is not uncommon for friends, employers, co-workers, and others who have a claim on us to demand that their interests be ranked first, even above ethical considerations. Loyalty is a reciprocal concept, however, and no one has the right to ask another to sacrifice ethical principles in the name of a special relationship. Indeed, one forfeits a claim of loyalty when so high a price is put on maintaining the relationship. Prioritizing Loyalties, because so many individuals and groups make loyalty claims on us, it is often impossible to honor them all simultaneously. Consequently, we must rank our loyalty obligations in some rational fashion. In our personal lives, for example, most people expect us to place the highest degree of loyalty on our family relationships. It is perfectly reasonable, and ethical, to look out for the interests of our children, parents and spouses even if we have to subordinate our obligations to other children, neighbors, or co-workers in doing so.
Safeguarding Confidential Information.
Loyalty requires us to keep secrets or information learned in confidence. Avoiding Conflicting Interests. Employees and public servants have an additional responsibility to make all professional decisions on merit, unimpeded by conflicting personal interests. Their goal is to secure and maintain the trust of the public, to whom they owe their ultimate loyalty.
2. RESPECT

The way one shows respect varies, but its essence is the display of regard for the worth of people, including oneself. We have no ethical duty to hold all people in high esteem or admire them, but we are morally obligated to treat everyone with respect, regardless of who they are and what they have done. We have a responsibility to be the best we can be in all situations, even when dealing with unpleasant people. Respect focuses on the moral obligation to honor the essential worth and dignity of the individual. Respect prohibits violence, humiliation, manipulation, and exploitation. It reflects notions such as civility, courtesy, dignity, autonomy, tolerance, and acceptance. Civility, Courtesy and Decency. A respectful person is an attentive listener, although his patience with the boorish need not be endless (respect works both ways). Nevertheless, the respectful person treats others with consideration, conforming to accepted notions of taste and propriety, and doesn’t resort to intimidation, coercion or violence except in extraordinary and limited situations to teach discipline, maintain order or achieve social justice. Punishment is used in moderation and only to advance important social goals and purposes.
Autonomy
An ethical person exercises personal, official, and managerial authority in a way that provides others with the information they need to make informed decisions about their own lives.
Tolerance
An ethical person accepts individual differences and beliefs without prejudice and judges others only on the content of their character.
3. RESPONSIBILITY
Life is full of choices. Being responsible means being in charge of our choices and, thus, our lives. It means being accountable for what we do and who we are. It also means recognizing that what we do, and what we do not do; matters and we are morally on the hook for the consequences. Responsibility makes demands on us. It imposes duties to do what we can, not because we are being paid or because we will suffer if we do not, but simply because it is our obligation to do so. The essence of responsibility is continuous awareness that our capacity to reason and our freedom to choose make us morally autonomous and, therefore, answerable for how we use our autonomy and whether we honor or degrade the ethical principles that give life meaning and purpose. Beyond having the responsibility to be trustworthy, respectful, fair, and caring, ethical people show responsibility by being accountable, pursuing excellence and exercising self-restraint. They exhibit the ability to respond to expectations.
Accountability
An accountable person is not a victim and does not shift blame or claim credit for the work of others. He considers the likely consequences of his behavior and associations. He recognizes the common complicity in the triumph of evil when nothing is done to stop it. He leads by example. Pursuit of Excellence
The pursuit of excellence has an ethical dimension when others rely upon our knowledge, ability, or willingness to perform tasks safely and effectively. Diligence. It is hardly unethical to make mistakes or be less than “excellent”, but there is a moral obligation to do one’s best, to be diligent, reliable, careful, prepared, and informed.

Perseverance.
Responsible people finish what they start, overcoming rather than surrendering to obstacles and excuses. Continuous Improvement. Responsible people look for ways to do their work better.
Self-Restraint
Responsible people exercise self-control, restraining passions and appetites (such as lust, hatred, gluttony, greed and fear) for the sake of reason, prudence, and the duty to set a good example. They delay gratification if necessary and never feel it is necessary to “win at any cost”. They realize they are as they choose to be, every day.
4. FAIRNESS

Most would agree that fairness and justice involve issues of equality, impartiality, proportionality, openness, and due process. Most would agree that it is unfair to handle similar matters inconsistently. Most would agree that it is unfair to impose punishment that is not commensurate with the offense. Beyond that, there is little agreement. Fairness is another tricky concept, probably more subject to legitimate debate and interpretation than any other ethical value. Disagreeing parties tend to maintain that there is only one fair position (their own, naturally). However, while some situations and decisions are clearly unfair, fairness usually refers to a range of morally justifiable outcomes rather than discovery of one fair answer.
Process
In settling disputes or dividing resources, how one proceeds to judgment is crucial, for someone is bound to be disappointed with the result. A fair person scrupulously employs open and impartial processes for gathering and evaluating information necessary to make decisions. Fair people do not wait for the truth to come to them; they seek out relevant information and conflicting perspectives before making important judgments.



Impartiality
Decisions should be made without favoritism or prejudice.
Equity
Fairness requires that an individual, company, or society correct mistakes, promptly and voluntarily. It is improper to take advantage of the weakness or ignorance of others.
5. CARING

Caring is the heart of ethics. It is scarcely possible to be truly ethical and not genuinely concerned with the welfare others. That is because ethics is ultimately about our responsibilities toward other people. If you existed alone in the universe, there would be no need for ethics and your heart could be a cold, hard stone without consequence to anyone or anything. It is easier to love “humanity” than it is to love people. People who consider themselves ethical and yet lack a caring attitude toward individuals tend to treat others as instruments of their will. They rarely feel an obligation to be honest, loyal, fair or respectful except insofar as it is prudent for them to do so, a disposition which itself hints at duplicity and a lack of integrity. A person who really cares feels an emotional response to both the pain and pleasure of others. Oddly enough, though, it is not uncommon for people to be remarkably ungracious, intolerant, and unforgiving toward those they love — while at the same time showing a generous spirit toward strangers and business associates.
Go figure.
Of course, sometimes we must hurt those we truly care for and some decisions, while quite ethical, do cause pain. However, one should consciously cause no more harm than is reasonably necessary to perform one’s duties. The highest form of caring is the honest expression of benevolence. This is sometimes referred to as altruism, not to be confused with strategic charity. Gifts to charities to advance personal interests are a fraud. That is, they are not gifts at all. They are investments or tax write-offs.
6. CITIZENSHIP

The concept of citizenship includes civic virtues and duties that prescribe how we ought to behave as part of a community. The good citizen knows the laws and obeys them, yes, but that is not all. She volunteers and stays informed on the issues of the day, the better to execute her duties and privileges as a member of a self-governing democratic society. That is, she does more than her “fair” share to make society work, now and for future generations. Such a commitment to the public sphere can have many expressions, such as conserving resources, recycling, using public transportation, and cleaning up litter. The good citizen gives more than she takes. When we say something is a civic duty, we imply that not doing that duty is unethical. Yet, that can be a harsh and erroneous judgment. If one has a duty to be honest, caring, fair, respectful, and responsible, then we mean it is ethically wrong to be the opposite of those things. However, does that then mean that, if one has a “civic duty” to stay informed, one is unethical if one is ignorant? Certainly, we do not have to admire people who take their citizenship for granted. It is important, however, to make the distinction between what is ethically mandated and what is merely desirable and worthy of emulation.
We judge ourselves by our best intentions, our most noble acts, and our most virtuous habits. We are judged by our last worst act. Conscientious people who want to do their jobs well often fail to adequately consider the morality of their professional behavior. They tend to compartmentalize ethics into two domains: private and occupational. Fundamentally, decent people thereby feel justified doing things at work that they know to be wrong in other contexts. They forget that everyone’s first job is to be a good person. People are especially vulnerable to rationalizations when they seek to advance a noble cause. “It is all for a good cause” is a seductive rationale that loosens interpretations of deception, concealment, conflicts of interest, favoritism, and violations of established rules and procedures. In making tough decisions, do not be distracted by rationalizations. Here are some of the most common. If it is Necessary, It is Ethical!
This rationalization is based on the false assumption that necessity breeds propriety. The approach often leads to ends-justify-the-means reasoning and treating tasks or goals as moral imperatives. The False Necessity Trap as Friedrich Nietzsche put it, “necessity is an interpretation, not a fact.” We tend to fall into the “false necessity trap” because we overestimate the cost of doing the right thing and underestimate the cost of failing to do so. If it is Legal and Permissible, It is Proper This substitutes legal requirements (which establish minimal standards of behavior) for personal moral judgment. This alternative does not embrace the full range of ethical obligations, especially for those involved in upholding the public trust. Ethical people often choose to do less than the maximally allowable, and more than the minimally acceptable. I Was Just Doing It for You! This is a primary justification for committing “little white lies” or withholding important information in personal or professional relationships, such as performance reviews. This rationalization pits the values of honesty and respect against the value of caring. An individual deserves the truth because he has a moral right to make decisions about his own life based on accurate information. This rationalization overestimates other people’s desire to be “protected” from the truth, when in fact most people would rather know unpleasant information than believe soothing falsehoods. Consider the perspective of people lied to: If they discovered the lie, would they thank you for being considerate or would they feel betrayed, patronized or manipulated? I’m Just Fighting Fire With Fire This is the false assumption that promise breaking, lying and deceit are justified if those with whom you are dealing routinely engage them in. It Doesn’t Hurt Anyone Used to excuse misconduct, this rationalization falsely holds that one can violate ethical principles so long as there is no clear and immediate harm to others. It treats ethical obligations simply as factors to be considered in decision-making, rather than as ground rules. Problem areas: Asking for or giving special favors to family, friends or public officials, disclosing nonpublic information to benefit others, using one’s position for personal advantage. Everyone’s Doing It This is a false, “safety in numbers” rationale fed by the tendency to uncritically treat cultural, organizational, or occupational behaviors as if they were ethical norms, just because they are norms. Its OK If I Don’t Gain Personally This justifies improper conduct done for others or for institutional purposes on the false assumption that personal gain is the only test of impropriety. A related, but more narrow excuse, is that only behavior resulting in improper financial gain warrants ethical criticism. I’ve Got It Coming People who feel they are overworked or underpaid rationalize that minor “perks” — such as acceptance of favors, discounts or gratuities — are nothing more than fair compensation for services rendered. This is also used as an excuse to abuse sick time, insurance claims, overtime, personal phone calls, and personal use of office supplies. I Can Still Be Objective This rationalization ignore the fact that a loss of objectivity always prevents perception of the loss of objectivity. It also underestimates the subtle ways in which gratitude; friendship, anticipation of future favors, and the like affect judgment. Does the person providing you with the benefit believe that it will in no way affect your judgment? Would the person still provide the benefit if you were in no position to help?


Bobby lee

:)

he has to make a point to put down others who have the ability to be nice around him than he either has problems dealing with his own personality or is just a weak person who can only feel strong by trying to make others feel weak.

Exactly! New problem: the fact that he has problems with his own personality is a new source of power for him, since he claims to know he is being a prick because he has personal trouble and trouble with the way he acts as a reaction to them... Neverending story.

The second thing he will probably admit after a couple of beers, but again, it will bring you nowhere with him.


that every ass that's respected tends to have some other outsanding quality about him that other people like in a person.

He is intelligent, he can adapt, he can seem like a normal guy, he has a looking down on others sense of humour which can be funny sometimes,...


Nice will get you tolerance.

Honesty will get you respect.

You describe how it should be, but this is not my exerience. Friend A, who is the prick, had a friend B, who is a nice person. I know, cause friend B has been my friend for a long time. Well: A totaly destroyed B, who was being honest and nice. There was no tolerance, only bashing.

Luckily B seems to have moved on.


Nice guys don't get far. They aren't in control, demanding

Is that really the only way to get somewhere? I hope not. It just doesn't feel right to be demanding and all. Maybe another Christian relic.


Nice people could easily be walked over by other people. Nice people don't walk over nice people.

The second thing is true, the first one not. I strife to be fairly nice, but still friend A did NOT walk over me. I stopped him.

Maybe it is a question of knowing when to act how. Or is it really a question of BEING?

Has anyone read the Steppenwolf by Hesse? The main character gets the pieces of a personality and puts them on a board in various manners. He then sees that noone is one dimensional and that he can put the pieces on the board as he sees fit. I like that. Next time he looks in the mirror, he doesn't just see a wolf, but a whole lot of characters.

About the described characteristics of niceness: I think they are all potentialy there, including the weak ones. But I also think it is quite possible to be nice without them. It is about working on your personality, questioning yourself,...

Anyway, I used to be really harsh on people. It is a talent I seem to have received at birth. :) I was euh... an unnice person, but always a smile on my face, a mask of invulnerability.


Sometimes you should take a break from Don Juan website and think for yourself.

If I promise to take regular brakes, can someone link me to that website? Thanks :)


Who gets hurt? The nice guys or the harsh guys?

It depends on where the nice guy draws the line. You see that in many movies: some nerd (the nice guy) takes a lot crap, than he wakes up, stands up and wins. Afterwards, he is still nice.


Usually, you could associate "harsh" with "powerful." Mostly everyone respects the powerful.

Too often it is a mask for utter weakness.


Do you think nice guys respect themselves? Aren't they those unconfident bunch?

If you are nice because you don't dare to be other than nice, because someone told you to be, there could be low self respect.
If you are nice because you think it is the right way to act, you will have clear boundaries to the niceness and be able to react hard when necessary.

Although in reality it isn't this black and white.


He shouldn't hurt them. But then again if you "help" them, it'll work against you.

Well, he claims his harshness will help the friends he comes down on more than being nice. Since he is starting to run out of friends, I don't think it is the right strategy.

The essence of the "nice-guy."

"Why do I have to do that? Can't they do that?" - They don't take the INITIATIVE, too afraid to.
"He called me a weakling, I'm hurt." - Too SENSITIVE! You should be AWARE, but not sensitive.
"I don't think I am capable of that..." - Expect SUCCESS! Be CONFIDENT! Don't be pessimistic.
"I do things for other people where I don't really want to do them. But I just do it anyway so people will like me more." - Do not seek approval. Do things for YOURSELF. Selfish? Hell no! You must respect yourself first, if you don't how you think others will respect you?
"I avoid conflicts and altercations." - Stand up for yourself. This is derived from your self-esteem and self-respect. Value yourself in order to be valued. Being called a "pussy" will be the kiss of death in life.
"I consider myself more sensitively evolved than most men." - You might as well be a girl. :D
"Is he/she going to like what I say? I'm afraid." - Get over the stupid fear. Speak your mind, yet be aware of being offensive. Don't be afraid of yourself and what you say. Just be AWARE, not afraid.
"I ask for permission in situations where I know I don't need it." - Supplication? Why ask? You are in charge of yourself.
"My emotional well-being is dependant on someone else. I am ONLY happy when they are." - Desperation is the death to all success and respect.

In summation, you don't want to be called a "nice-guy" in today's society. But for women "nice guy" is a term used by females to describe a male who is not a potential mate for attraction. But they are potential partners in marriages.

Anything other than that list, would fall in the GENTLEMAN category.

People that want help ask! To consider that one doesnt know whats good for him without considerations is a form of control and lack of respect for others ideals and opinions! This ideal is the basis for Communism!

Bob

Theory on why people respect harshness more.

When someone approaches you in a nice way, you can get the feeling that he wants something from you.
Someone who are harsh give the impression that they are self sufficient and that they don't need you for anything. If they wanted something, they would be nice, no?

Originally posted by A4Ever
Theory on why people respect harshness more.

When someone approaches you in a nice way, you can get the feeling that he wants something from you.
Someone who are harsh give the impression that they are self sufficient and that they don't need you for anything. If they wanted something, they would be nice, no?

Not neccessarily. By that definition, we are all "nice-guys."

There are other terms to relate, you're a decent guy, great guy, good guy, etc.

But never the "nice-guy" ;)

Nope, guys never want to be the "nice guy". That term usually means more than being nice, many times it means weak-personality.

I don't know about all this Don Juan rubbish. The only time I could see actively subscribing to something like it is if you have a hard time talking to women or something. When I was single, I didn't need a philosophy to tell me to be confident, secure, and polite. Some of my friends could have used it though...

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
Nope, guys never want to be the "nice guy". That term usually means more than being nice, many times it means weak-personality.

Good, glad you accepted that fact.


I don't know about all this Don Juan rubbish. The only time I could see actively subscribing to something like it is if you have a hard time talking to women or something. When I was single, I didn't need a philosophy to tell me to be confident, secure, and polite. Some of my friends could have used it though...

It's not *actually* a "philosophy" but others prefer to call it so. It doesn't *tell* you to do anything, it is advice, we choose the advice. The advice is not the master.

The problem is that you are assuming. I have not subscribed to anything. You don't need to spend your money on anything to be labelled as a "Don Juan." Such perceptionis are suspectible to attacks on Don Juan as money hoggers or manipulators, etc. All that crap. A Don Juan is just a simple axiom of a real man. All men want to be real men. Rubbish you say?

You are right I am assuming. I know nothing about 'Don Juan' except there was some cheesy movie with Johnny Depp where he was Don Juan or something. You seem to have some juvenile interpretation of what a 'real' man is. I could be reading you the wrong way...but in any case whatever works for you...

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
You are right I am assuming. I know nothing about 'Don Juan' except there was some cheesy movie with Johnny Depp where he was Don Juan or something. You seem to have some juvenile interpretation of what a 'real' man is. I could be reading you the wrong way...but in any case whatever works for you...

Not at all "juvenile" but whatever floats your boat.

But now you've gotten me inquisitive, what have I said that provides you to such a statement?

Chosen - a little wake up call.

The asshole A4's friend does not refer to 'Don Juan' nice guys. He refers to the kind of nice human being I'm talking about. You're taking everything in the romantic term when it's not meant to.

Oh no, not another Don Juan dispute.

I have ten bucks on Chosen, if only 'cuz he's a minority and Don Giovanni is a kick-arse opera.

(Logic is for pussies. :p )


Religion is dying and more people are no longer brainwashed and acquire "tunnel vision."

God is dead. And Chosen, I like this. You may be relying on your DJ thing as a crutch, please don't take this as an insult, because I use Nietzsche that way a little - but you are almost creating your own morality.

And that I like.

As for being nice:

If you are naturally nice, go for it. If you are not naturally nice and don't want to be nice, don't be nice. Be yourself.

Edit to add:

To Chosen in particular:

I mean, nobody wants to end up like Calphan in "The Tempest"

"Caliphan
Has got a new master, will be a new man!"

I'm not a nice guy. I'm a 'Good Fellow' :D I have a pretty nifty walking stick, does that make me a gentleman? Or do I need a top hat?

Ok, this has probably all been done before so we can make it quick...


A Don Juan is just a simple axiom of a real man. All men want to be real men.
This sounds like you are saying that a 'real man' is directly related to a man's success in mating with the opposite sex. While this is a great measure of a male's success for say, gorillas, I would place a man's relations with the opposite sex fairly low in what makes a 'real man'. By 'real man' I assume you mean a man that is successful and respectable. I would gives things such as being a leader and a father much more weight.
When I was younger(college), one of my main goals in life was hooking up with as many women as possible. I don't regret it and it makes perfectly logical sense at that time in life. When you get older and seek more meaningful relationships, priorities change.
Anyone can be a 'player'. Some people never grow up and remain that way their entire lives. I have a couple of uncles who are old, lonely, and unhappy because they cheat on everyone they have ever been with.

I think the original idea was that people respect harsh people more than nice people. With nice people I mean open and friendly people who don't attack without a reason. It doesn't mean that a nice person is a wimp, like comes forward from Chosen's definitions.

As far as it is relevant for the original question, I think Tyler's definition is more what I meant.

But keep going, any direction can be interesting.

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
This sounds like you are saying that a 'real man' is directly related to a man's success in mating with the opposite sex.

You are the one thinking. Anyone can be a real man. If you are one, women will be naturally attracted to you. It's not all about women. What a real man is, is someone who controls his own life, who's confident.


While this is a great measure of a male's success for say, gorillas, I would place a man's relations with the opposite sex fairly low in what makes a 'real man'.

Why do women keep mentioning, "where have all the real men gone?" A real man is not a man chasing women, a real man is a man chasing his OWN desires and goals, this results in women chasing him.


By 'real man' I assume you mean a man that is successful and respectable. I would gives things such as being a leader and a father much more weight.

You do notice, anyone who is successful and respectable is attractive to all sorts of people, may it be women, men, etc.


When I was younger(college), one of my main goals in life was hooking up with as many women as possible.

Wrong, I don't _need_ a girl, I'm way too busy for that, and I've noticed since I portray such a character, alot more women are wanting to be with me, they want to be a part of my "busy life."

It's a challenge for them, and women love challenge.


I don't regret it and it makes perfectly logical sense at that time in life. When you get older and seek more meaningful relationships, priorities change.

Great.


Anyone can be a 'player'. Some people never grow up and remain that way their entire lives. I have a couple of uncles who are old, lonely, and unhappy because they cheat on everyone they have ever been with.

That's your perception. Don Juans can be players or not. Some are, some aren't. But judging others is where you go wrong.


Originally posted by A4Ever
I think the original idea was that people respect harsh people more than nice people. With nice people I mean open and friendly people who don't attack without a reason. It doesn't mean that a nice person is a wimp, like comes forward from Chosen's definitions.

As far as it is relevant for the original question, I think Tyler's definition is more what I meant.

But keep going, any direction can be interesting.

Ok, then proclaim yourself to be a nice guy to the entire world. Let's see everyone's reaction towards you, etc. Especially notice the women's. They will definitely perceive you differently.

I will never call myself a nice guy, I am a good fella, good guy, great guy, gentleman, etc. never the nice, our society has placed a bad perception on a "nice-guy."

Feel free to call yourself whatever you want. To me, you sound more like a good-guy.


Originally posted by Tyler
Chosen - a little wake up call.

The asshole A4's friend does not refer to 'Don Juan' nice guys. He refers to the kind of nice human being I'm talking about. You're taking everything in the romantic term when it's not meant to.

Tyler don't even think about being pejorative and telling me I need a wake-up call.

A4Ever was not really all that specific. He could detail what kind of NICE people his friend "harms." There are barely any details, so I explained what type of "nice people" get walked over and "hurt."

I am not relating everything in the romantic sense. You need to STOP thinking a Don Juan is all about women.

Show me where I link EVERYTHING in the romantic term. You must have missed my posts.

Detail what kind of "nice" these people are.

What do they do? How do they act/react?

What does your friend say about them?


Originally posted by Xev
(Logic is for pussies. :p )

Why don't I pull an Adam and take that out of context and put it into my signature?

How would you feel? What would you call it?

"logic is for pussies" - Xev

Do you like that?

Chosen:

How would you feel? What would you call it?

I'd call it "not noticing emoticons". I'd feel like my leg itches. (Well it DOES!)


"logic is for pussies" - Xev

*Bows*
I'm so fucking wise. I am like, Buddha.


Do you like that?

Ooooh, Chosen! Quote me out of context! Ignore my emoticons! Huuurt meee!


:rolleyes:

Hmmmm.......so If your a nice guy it shows a week personality?

Not at all, it shows a level of personal control, and intelligents. I think the saying goes "YOU CANT MAKE A SILK PURSE OUT OF A SOWS EAR!". The answer is why bother!

I like my way of dealing with it, "Protect the innocent, Convience the Undecided, Kill the rest!"

:D :eek:


Bobby Lee

Originally posted by Xev
Ooooh, Chosen! Quote me out of context! Ignore my emoticons! Huuurt meee!

Hehe, just giving an example Xev. ;)

You better watch out, I might actually hurt you, I'm not usually a "nice-guy" but I never hit a woman with her clothes on! ;)

Bah fucking humbug Chosen, we* all know that you are really a submissive. Secretly, you long to be placed at the mercy of a stunningly beautiful and remorselessly vicious woman with a riding crop.

*Xev pauses a moment then starts giggling hysterically*

You started this.

Bobby Lee:

Oh right, I'd better say something of substance. Ummmm.....

Welcome to Sciforums.
Kittens are cute.
The mass of the electron is 9.11*10^-31 kg.


Not at all, it shows a level of personal control, and intelligents. I think the saying goes "YOU CANT MAKE A SILK PURSE OUT OF A SOWS EAR!". The answer is why bother!

You may note that I do not care to see rudeness undervalued; for it is by far the most humane form of contradiction, and, amid modern effemiancy, it is one of our first virtues.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

A god descending to earth would not be anything but rude. Nice? To others?

Why?

* 7 out of ten of Xev's multiple personalities agree!

You may note that I do not care to see rudeness undervalued; for it is by far the most humane form of contradiction, and, amid modern effemiancy, it is one of our first virtues.

So I get even more interested in this strange character called Nietzsche, but no, we can't discuss him, we can only quote him, wetting my appetite to Niagaric proportions! :)

The Nietzsche question and the niceness thread interconnect. It seems that many support these anti-Christian (just a name to label) thoughts. I want to know why.

I notice similarities between my harsh friends and some posts of Xev and Joeman. (In no way do I mean you guys are prics - no smiley) That intrigues me. I don't think I could ever be like that.

You also use similar motivations for having a go at someone. You claim it will have more effect.

After many flamewars (not that I have seen that many) Xev and Joeman are still highly respected.

Disclaimer: I hope you guys don't take that personal and can see what I mean and what I'm interested in.


A god descending to earth would not be anything but rude. Nice? To others?

In most stories (which are as unsubstantiated as your claim) where a God walks the earth, he is nice to people. Jesus is still the prime example of a nice guy.


Not at all, it shows a level of personal control, and intelligents.

I don't know about the intelligence, but I do consider politeness sometimes a form of personal control. When someone shouts at me, I can keep myself calm and respond with logic arguments.

Maybe that is a form of passive aggressiveness.


Detail what kind of "nice" these people are.

Like I said, you can talk about whatever you want, whatever direction you want to go.

The nice people confronting my friend will not have a cheap swing at someone, will be polite, will be... well the things that Tyler mentioned.


What do they do? How do they act/react?

They try to talk. Show him that his way of acting will get him nowhere. After a while, they turn away from him, cause they have boundaries to being nice. Maybe that is not so well put, cause they will still be nice to him, they will only make sure there is no personal involvement anymore, and they will avoid his company.

So I don't think nice guys are by definition push overs, like you said, Chosen.

Originally posted by A4Ever
So I don't think nice guys are by definition push overs, like you said, Chosen.

Your definition could mean something else. Your definition could mean a "good guy" with reference to my perspective. It makes little difference superficially, internally we are both getting at it.

My definition of a nice guy = weak guy.

Originally posted by A4Ever


So I get even more interested in this strange character called Nietzsche, but no, we can't discuss him, we can only quote him, wetting my appetite to Niagaric proportions! :)



Originally from a PM sent to me by Xev
Nietzsche - he was a German philosopher. http://infonectar.com/nietzsche/intro.html

Basically, the central part of his philosophy was that every human posesses a "will to power" - a drive, an urge to posess and control power. And the ubermensh is somone who understands and controls this drive, and posesses power.


You can see I am slowly corrupted by Xev.



You also use similar motivations for having a go at someone. You claim it will have more effect.

I don't know about that. Some respond to flames some don't. There are couple posters who just totally ignores me when I confront them with rudeness.



After many flamewars (not that I have seen that many) Xev and Joeman are still highly respected.

I am respected by some but still dispised by a few. I usually can still manage to redeem myself somehow.



Maybe that is a form of passive aggressiveness.

Man! You do learn quickly. :D

Personally I consider myself a very reasonable person, but niceness means making too much unnecessary compromise for me. I will stop being rude if rudeness is unreasonable at that particular moment. Niceness is definitely not a requirement for someone to be my good friend, or girl friend/spouse.

but niceness means making too much unnecessary compromise for me.

Sometimes I get that feeling too, but I just don't want to risk being wrong and hurting someone.

Like with Brolly: you did get something moving, but only after you let go of the insults and described what you were trying to say.

Wet1 said basicly the same thing without any rudeness.

But I can understand what you say about the compromise.

Hey, thanks for the link Joeman!

So you had to go through all the Xev pm's, copy the link, paste it,... what a nice thing to do! :)


Your definition could mean a "good guy" with reference to my perspective.

I understand your definitions. Still would like to upgrade the way 'nice person' sounds to you. :)

Originally posted by A4Ever
Wet1 said basicly the same thing without any rudeness.


Words being said using his method could easily go in one ear and come right out on the other.

Words being said using his method could easily go in one ear and come right out on the other.

That's true. It is an advantage often mentioned. You do grab the attention that way. (that's what my friend always says)

He also says that way you really show that you care, cause you're willing to get upset about it.

Dark side pulling...must....resist.... *lol*

Originally posted by Joeman
Personally I consider myself a very reasonable person, but niceness means making too much unnecessary compromise for me. I will stop being rude if rudeness is unreasonable at that particular moment. Niceness is definitely not a requirement for someone to be my good friend, or girl friend/spouse.

YOU of all people, reasonable?! :p

In your perspective, how reasonable is very reasonable? :D

Joeman:
Keep in mind that's a poor explanation of the ubermensch. Let me explain further.......

*Audience screams in horror and runs for the exits*


Words being said using his method could easily go in one ear and come right out on the other.

Yep. Plus it does no good to be nice and ask politely. You will be fucked over by people who are NOT nice.


You can see I am slowly corrupted by Xev.

Awww Joeman, you know you like it.

A4Ever:

So I get even more interested in this strange character called Nietzsche, but no, we can't discuss him, we can only quote him, wetting my appetite to Niagaric proportions!

You keep your hands off him! He's mine!


So you had to go through all the Xev pm's, copy the link, paste it,... what a nice thing to do!

Joeman regularly reads my private messages. He prints them out and sacrifices chickens to them.


You also use similar motivations for having a go at someone. You claim it will have more effect.

After many flamewars (not that I have seen that many) Xev and Joeman are still highly respected.

Maybe. I'm disliked by a lot of posters here, but they fear me too much to do anything. Mwahahahaa!


In most stories (which are as unsubstantiated as your claim) where a God walks the earth, he is nice to people. Jesus is still the prime example of a nice guy.

*Raises an eyebrow*

One can be extremely rude and yet very nice.

Chosen:

YOU of all people, reasonable?!

Joeman is quite reasonable, most of the time.

Don't make me hurt you Chosen, we both know you'd like it.

*Audience screams in horror and runs for the exits*

No they don't!

Lemme explain something though: I have lots of information about Nietzsche, including a link provided by Joeman.

I am interested in what he means to people, not in a pure theoretic discussion.

But hey, I don't want to force you into post 3001! :)

(Have you scribbled some Arendt stuff yet?)


You will be fucked over by people who are NOT nice.

Not necessarily.

First: being nice does not mean lowering your guard.
Second: even if guard is on low, there can still be elephant skin, followed by the use of two leggs to walk away. (or kick his ass)


He prints them out and sacrifices chickens to them.

Dear lord, if you want me to eat this chicken, give no sign at all........ your will shall be done.


One can be extremely rude and yet very nice.

Now that's interesting!

If you have a lot of time, write an essay about that and send it to me! :)

If your time is limited: could you explain how?


Don't make me hurt you Chosen, we both know you'd like it.

If you two ever meet in real life, I don't want to be there...
Chosen: I never hit women with their clothes on!
Xev: then rip them of with your fangs!!

*shiver*


:p

Originally posted by Xev
*Audience screams in horror and runs for the exits*

A4Ever probably starts snoring and drooling.



Joeman regularly reads my private messages. He prints them out and sacrifices chickens to them.

Yes your highness.



Joeman is quite reasonable, most of the time.


Only most of the time? OUCH :( That the same as my friend saying to me "You are not VERY gay." or "You are totally not gay..... usually."

A4ever,

There is a distinction between having conscience and being nice. A lot of nice people have no conscience or ethics. My actions are dictated by my conscience. With conscience in place, the rest of my action is based on practicality and efficiency. I am nice only if it is practical to be nice. Most of time it is totally practical to be nice. If it is more practical or more efficient to be rude, I would be rude. I am not always rude because it doesn't benefit me in the long run to be rude alll the time. Being rude all the time is illogical and impractical.

My great niceness often gets replaced by even greater viciousness...

I am very nice most times, beause I am like that
and I can often be very vicious/+cruel, which is also a part of me , when other people think that they can joke with me , because they think that I am nice:bugeye:


1-
alright-
come then,
show your might ,
fall on me and bite my flesh ,
strive for my blood and seek my veins.
I'll toss you away like hyenas in a wind.

I see your fear...sweat leaving marks on your faces.
trechourous beasts, you attack me from behind,
and hack your rotten teeth in my unprotected back;
and though these may be my final drops of blood,
I tear your throat and you fall with me,
in the pool of red floating life

and 2-
Where were you that night
under the moonlit sky,
I wanted to love and dance with your tears,
but you were not near.

What was I to think to find you away;
were you a shadow or a dream of my passion,
do you love or hate or simply forget -
hurricane in my mind.

If it was a day and I knew your name,
I'd probably look to see you again,
till I find my end or forget your smile
and traces in my heart.

But all is dark and stars are there-
their light is filling up my soul;
you are not here to recall your name,
I love the stars and forget your tears.

If it is more practical or more efficient to be rude, I would be rude.

Please give some examples

I am nice only if it is practical to be nice. Most of time it is totally practical to be nice.

I would consider the person's feelings. Do I need to make this point? Can I not live with some non or low sensical posts on the boards?

But at least you get things done, even at the cost of people not liking you.

You even have some direct results: Brolly stopped Kupo and his lasts posts are straight forward.

You know, if I don't watch myself, I can start feeling sorry that unique nonsense is now destroyed.

*slaps self*

Wide awake now! :)

Please give some examples

Read the why is everyone signing out from scxforums in free thoughts.

Originally posted by A4Ever

I would consider the person's feelings. Do I need to make this point? Can I not live with some non or low sensical posts on the boards?

But at least you get things done, even at the cost of people not liking you.

I do too. In the past I have been getting some PM's from some posters saying my rhetoric hurt their feelings. That is when my conscience kicks in. I usually know when to stop. However, an intelligence person always appreciate a genuine feedback. If I put down someone who is worthy of my respect, I would pick them backup again if I am given the opportunity.

I don't care if I am not liked by some people, as long as they are people I do not care much for. You can't possible make everyone happy. I don't even try. When you try to please everyone, you will end up pleasing no one. In this case, I am disliked by Thor, Brolly and others who are on their side, but a few appreciated my effort to make him shut the hell up.

If I put down someone who is worthy of my respect, I would pick them backup again if I am given the opportunity.

Only way to go.

Hit hard enough, end it, truce, respect.


You can't possible make everyone happy.

True again.


When you try to please everyone, you will end up pleasing no one.

I noticed in many cases.


I am disliked by Thor, Brolly and others who are on their side, but a few appreciated my effort to make him shut the hell up.

Even Thor and Brolly will read carefully what you write next time. They know you say what you mean.

They will somehow respect you, especially if you can put previous issues behind you:

Hit hard enough, end it, truce, respect.