Skinwalker advised he will respond to explain all out of place artifacts discovered. Take your time Skinwalker, this place is not very busy.

Start with the Baghdad Battery:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_battery

To me, even if the builder did not know about electricity, they exceeded in other supplimentary areas of knowledge than we generally attribute to them.

More to come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Not really an OOPA anymore since the machining and details of it are publically accepted. The Greeks had mechanical abilities equal to renaissance Europe. None the less it has given weight to arguments against the skepticism surrounding a lot of inventions by Archimedes.

I want to know from you however, Skin, Heliocentric views in it's construction? Perhaps much like people often denying evolution today, many Greek's foolishly going along with Geocentric views, with the smart people shaking their heads and carrying on(and advancing) side-line style with a helio-centric view.

The infamous "Baghdad battery," a clay pot dating to around the 3rd century CE and found in Iraq. Often referred to as a "battery" by significance-junkies and mystery-mongers, it obviously isn't since there were no electrical devices present in the early first millennium for which a battery would be required. But, of course, this is exactly the sort of thing the significance-junkie looks for. Suddenly, an innocuous clay pot becomes part of a grand conspiracy to which archaeologists are willing accomplices in a cover up. Ignored are the more probable explanations for such jars, one of which includes that vessels of this type were for scroll or papyrus storage. They were typically 5 inches long and contained a rolled up copper sheet and an iron rod. The ends were capped with asphalt plugs, which would have interfered with the conduction of electricity.

They would, however, have been very efficient at hermetically sealing papyrus and, since each of the "batteries" found to date have were found open to the environment while in situ, any papyrus inside would have long since deteriorated, leaving a slightly acidic residue. Experiments testing the "battery" hypothesis yielded about 25mW from one of these tested as a possible galvanic cell. A penlight requires about 1100mW. Tests were conducted since a couple of electricity-related hypotheses exist regarding the purpose of these jars: a way for electroplating metals such as gold or elektrum; and for ritualistic use by some "magical" means by a sorcerer who used a weak acid in the vessel and attached it to metal statue. Touched by believers, they would then feel a tingle, verifying his "power." The former suggestion of electroplating has fallen out of favor, however, since gilding metal by fire using mercury is far more effective. Very little gilding was able to be procured from models of the "batteries" which only produced a very weak current.

So just an alchemical fluke? Comon, even if they passed it off as hocus-pocus, it's still impressive considering the timeline(200BC- 200 AD). Also other "batteries" have been found...where several objects(some dated 2000bc) with traces of electroplated precious metals have been found at different locations. There are several anomalous finds from other regions, which suggests use of electricity(or whatever they called it) on a grander scale.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/bat1a.jpg

They're most likely storage for papyrus & scrolls. It was common practice to store you papyri in clay vessels. It was common practice to have copper and iron rods in the center to scroll them. There is no evidence of the need for electricity since there are no electrical devices invented at that point. Nor is there any evidence of technology that rises to the level of needing electricity. Nor is there evidence that the "batteries" (should an attempt be made to use them as such) could generate current sufficient to do anything with, perhaps not even electroplating of metals (this level of metallurgy was achieved by then).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorchester_Pot

Would be interesting, except it got LOST by a museum(a common theme with this stuff - big culprit usually = Smithsonian)

They're most likely storage for papyrus & scrolls. It was common practice to store you papyri in clay vessels. It was common practice to have copper and iron rods in the center to scroll them. There is no evidence of the need for electricity since there are no electrical devices invented at that point. Nor is there any evidence of technology that rises to the level of needing electricity. Nor is there evidence that the "batteries" (should an attempt be made to use them as such) could generate current sufficient to do anything with, perhaps not even electroplating of metals (this level of metallurgy was achieved by then).

German archaeologist , Dr Wilhelm Konig also found copper vases plated with silver in the Baghdad Museum, excavated from Sumerian sites in southern Iraq, dating back to at least 2500 BCE. When the vases were lightly tapped, a blue patina or film separated from the surface, which is characteristic of silver electroplated onto copper base. It would appear then that the Parthians inherited their batteries from one of the earliest known civilizations.

I guess Konig is a flake too?

I hate to be the one to say it, but this is one that neither of us can really comment on unless other data is available. It could be a genuine enigma. Or it could be a complete hoax (which was a popular thing in the 19th century). It isn't available for examination. Undoubtedly, significance-junkies and mystery-mongers would see this as some sort of evidence in and of itself, for its legitimacy, but the fact is that it is just as likely to be evidence for its illegitimacy -it may have been removed from "circulation" in order to prevent its true nature from being discovered and thus creating a scandal of a hoax.

Therefore, I move that we stick to objects that have tangible and testable qualities. Anecdotal accounts of OOPAs would serve no purpose for either of us.

Ok but I will list "lost" "reported" OOPAs and whom may have lost them, just for the record and no argument.

Notice Skin says "perhaps not even electroplating of metals," nice try Skin.

How about the Antikythera Device?

German archaeologist , Dr Wilhelm Konig also found copper vases plated with silver in the Baghdad Museum, excavated from Sumerian sites in southern Iraq, dating back to at least 2500 BCE. When the vases were lightly tapped, a blue patina or film separated from the surface, which is characteristic of silver electroplated onto copper base. It would appear then that the Parthians inherited their batteries from one of the earliest known civilizations.

I guess Konig is a flake too?

You're making quite a jump from a clay vessel dating to around the 3 century CE to a culture dating to around 3500-2300 BCE. Surely you aren't connecting these. The Koenig reference is usually cited to a Charles Berlitz novel (he, of course published his works as "fact"). I'm not even sure this guy really exists, but the Berlitz reference was to a 2000 year old vase if I'm not mistaken. No mention of the vases provenience is made nor of the published works where it can be evaluated. If the Sumerians were electroplating, they may have used a process that ionized metal, but this was a chemical process and not one of electrical technology that they understood as such.

I have several references on my desk about Sumeria. I'll browse them and see if there's any mention of electroplated goods.

For now, however, I'm off to a class.

Maybe that will help.

Lost:
Dropa Stones:
the two stone discs "vanished", according to Professor Wang Zhijun, the Director of the Banpo-Museum in March of 1994

I have other lost finds - but they are not OOPAs so I leave them for another discussion.

You're making quite a jump from a clay vessel dating to around the 3 century CE to a culture dating to around 3500-2300 BCE. Surely you aren't connecting these. The Koenig reference is usually cited to a Charles Berlitz novel (he, of course published his works as "fact"). I'm not even sure this guy really exists, but the Berlitz reference was to a 2000 year old vase if I'm not mistaken. No mention of the vases provenience is made nor of the published works where it can be evaluated. If the Sumerians were electroplating, they may have used a process that ionized metal, but this was a chemical process and not one of electrical technology that they understood as such.

I have several references on my desk about Sumeria. I'll browse them and see if there's any mention of electroplated goods.

For now, however, I'm off to a class.

I thought Koenig was in charge of the Baghdad museum and he was examining other vases(not official "batteries") finding the evidence of electroplating. These were not necessarily batteries, but "electroplated" vases dating to Sumerian times. Conclusion, the Batteries are inherited technology from earlier times(yes Sumerian or earlier).

Good point nietz, maybe Skin will learn that in class today.

Well I envy him, I wish I was able to go back to school(maybe I'll win the lottery). I am not picking a fight with him here IAC, I am trying to have an honest discussion. Though one is able to learn a great deal on one's own means, discussion is probably the best things University has to offer. My only problem with modern universities, is that they seem to make everybody think the same way and it takes a real rebel to challenge mainstream thinking, even when it is necessary.

I honestly am listening to him debunking this stuff and hold an open mind to "conventional" explainations. However I do differ in that I think these things have a much larger impact than mainstreamers will awknowledge.

I want to move the thread towards discussion on to the Antikythera Device, however I will wait till the battery topic is exhausted.

Google Maui's Tanawa as well, fascinating.

Have you heard of the little bitty diorite (very hard) vase from Egypt that was somehow hollowed out? Amazing.

Did not know about that one(the calculator), but i'm going to go along with Skinwalker on this one and only talk about physical objects we actually have. If we talked about all the odd hieroglyphics, this would go for 20 pages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorchester_Pot

Would be interesting, except it got LOST by a museum(a common theme with this stuff - big culprit usually = Smithsonian)

You may or may not believe in conspiracy theories, but a lot of people who would disappear things like this are just jerks to begin with. It's like a genetic disease.

The infamous "Baghdad battery," a clay pot dating to around the 3rd century CE and found in Iraq. Often referred to as a "battery" by significance-junkies and mystery-mongers, it obviously isn't since there were no electrical devices present in the early first millennium for which a battery would be required. But, of course, this is exactly the sort of thing the significance-junkie looks for. Suddenly, an innocuous clay pot becomes part of a grand conspiracy to which archaeologists are willing accomplices in a cover up. Ignored are the more probable explanations for such jars, one of which includes that vessels of this type were for scroll or papyrus storage. They were typically 5 inches long and contained a rolled up copper sheet and an iron rod. The ends were capped with asphalt plugs, which would have interfered with the conduction of electricity.

They would, however, have been very efficient at hermetically sealing papyrus and, since each of the "batteries" found to date have were found open to the environment while in situ, any papyrus inside would have long since deteriorated, leaving a slightly acidic residue. Experiments testing the "battery" hypothesis yielded about 25mW from one of these tested as a possible galvanic cell. A penlight requires about 1100mW. Tests were conducted since a couple of electricity-related hypotheses exist regarding the purpose of these jars: a way for electroplating metals such as gold or elektrum; and for ritualistic use by some "magical" means by a sorcerer who used a weak acid in the vessel and attached it to metal statue. Touched by believers, they would then feel a tingle, verifying his "power." The former suggestion of electroplating has fallen out of favor, however, since gilding metal by fire using mercury is far more effective. Very little gilding was able to be procured from models of the "batteries" which only produced a very weak current.

Then there must be examples of these that still have papyrus inside them, or some kind of remains. At least the idea of a place to keep scrolls seems somewhat plausible. What kind of containers has papyrus been found in?

You may or may not believe in conspiracy theories, but a lot of people who would disappear things like this are just jerks to begin with. It's like a genetic disease.

Yes, jerks or greedy collector types or "elitist" types for their little frat houses or whatever.

However, the Smithsonian has a very bad record for "losing things". I will at some point make an outright attack on them in another thread at some point.

I thought Koenig was in charge of the Baghdad museum and he was examining other vases(not official "batteries") finding the evidence of electroplating. These were not necessarily batteries, but "electroplated" vases dating to Sumerian times. Conclusion, the Batteries are inherited technology from earlier times(yes Sumerian or earlier).

Electroplating is not a technology that was present in Sumeria. They did, however, have some gilding processes that were chemical in nature, such as electrodeless deposition of copper on iron which is done by use of a copper sulfate solution -no outside electricity involved (though, if my chemistry is still with me, there is an electro-chemical reaction due to the base metal's ions).

Not only is the process of electroplating complex, but it wasn't likely to have been discovered by accident either. And the discovery would have necessitated that there existed an understanding of electricity enough that the metallurgist could have known to apply current to a solution to create an affinity between the two metals. Also, it would have required a method of dissolving a metal in an electrolyte solution. The Sumerians were still figuring out the limits of bronze and hadn't yet figured out iron. So it isn't likely that they accidentally discovered electroplating and there exists no evidence to suggest that it occurred.

But back to the 1st century CE: this was the time of the Parthian Empire and the vessels in question were found in, what was then, Parthia, which extended down into Mesopotamia.

There is a very interesting hypothesis that the vessels weren't galvanic cells after all -admittedly, they *do* resemble galvanic cells, but this is, perhaps, a good example of looking at the past through the lens of the present. We can dismiss the electroplating possibility for a couple of reasons: the process wasn't invented until Faraday in the 18th cent. CE if memory serves correct); experimental archaeology conducted on replicas of the vessels as cells showed that about 0.5 v of current could be generated which could sustain itself for only a short time (Al-Haik 1964); empirical testing shows that it takes 1.1 days to electroplate 1 g of silver at 1 mW which is grossly inefficient.

So that raises the question again (since König's is dismissed): what was the purpose of such a strange looking configuration of a jar. Two possibilities, both very plausible, remain: 1) storage of papryii 2) the tools of a magician

The second is one that I find fascinating. Keyser (1993) reviewed the literature and examined the jars and began with the research hypothesis that they were medicinal in nature. He noticed that in antiquity it was common practice at the turn of the millennium to use electric eels as an analgesic to ease the pain of gout and headache, specifically the torpedo ocellata. This was common practice in the coastal regions of the Aegean and the Mediterranean, but electric eel species don't exist in the Persian Gulf or Tigris/Euphrates waters. If the magicians new of the practice in the Med, they may have developed similar methods that don't require electric fish.

It could have been that someone, quite accidentally, discovered that by dipping a bronze spoon in vinegar contained by an iron bowl (or vice versa), they may have recognized the tingling sensation.


Then there must be examples of these that still have papyrus inside them, or some kind of remains. At least the idea of a place to keep scrolls seems somewhat plausible. What kind of containers has papyrus been found in?

There are many examples (Waterman 1931; Connan et al 1999) and papyrus has been found in all manner of ceramic jars, since they allowed the owner to keep them safe from the elements (water and written papyrii are not a good mix). Moreover, Papyrus was first used in Parthia as a writing material at around the time that the vessels are dated (1st century CE). And the bitumen, often described as "asphalt" in mentions of the "Baghdad Battery," was used frequently to waterproof and seal just about everything, including jars (Connan et al 1999).

To cut this short, I'll conclude by saying that the so-called "Baghdad Battery" is a mystery, but not for the reasons that mystery-mongers and significance-junkies call attention to. There is no evidence for a secret advanced society but, rather, just a plain mystery of the true nature of the artifacts. There have been many discovered that are similar, some in what appear to be a magician's house (Wateman 1931). They could be storage jars for papyrii or containers for magicians who were commonly referred to for all manner of healing throughout the Near East from the Bronze Age through nearly the Ottoman Empire.

References:

Al-Haik, A. (1964). The Rabbou'a Galvanic Cell, Sumer 20, pp. 103-4.

Connan, J. ; et al (1999). Use and Trade of Bitumen in Antiquity and Prehistory: Molecular Archaeology Reveals Secrets of Past Civilizations [and Discussion]. Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences, Vol. 354, No. 1379, Molecular Information and Prehistory. , pp. 33-50.

Keyser, Paul T. (1993). The Purpose of Parthian Galvanic Cells: the First Century A.D. Electric Battery Used for Analgesia. Journal of Near East Studies, 52(2), 81-82.

Kraeling, Carl H. (1952). A Dead Sea Scroll Jar. Oriental Institute Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, 125, pp. 1, 5-7.

Waterman, Leroy (1931). Preliminary Report upon the E.xcavations at Tel Umar. Ann Arbor; vol. 1.

Thanks, lots to chew on, I will have to investigate the gilding process. I assume it leaves similar residue/after effects found in those vases?

What's your take on the Antikythera device?

Okay....moving along with an example of an OOPA successfully forcing the general scientific community to re-evalute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman

I'm not sure what would be considered "out of place" to the degree that significance-junkies and mystery-mongers crave, though I would readily concede that many, many artifacts are recovered in the archaeological record all the time that are "out of place" to what is currently known or understood. I'm actually working on an Arabian rock art project that, should the research hypothesis hold, the mural is very out of place. But its this sort of discovery that we all crave and hope for in archaeology.

The difference, however, with pursing archaeology as a science and the assertions and contentions that mystery-mongers and significance-junkies (MM-SJ) hold is that archaeologists begin by attempting to disprove or falsify their research hypothesis. The MM-SJ crowd begins with a speculation to which they seek only to prove. Data that are inconsistent are typically ignored, fallaciously explained/justified, or otherwise unfairly dismissed. Note: I'm not suggesting that you are a member of the MM-SJ crowd. In that regard, I'm speaking to well-published and vocal proponents like Hancock and Cremo as well as perhaps even Van Daniken and Velikovsky.

Coincidently, though, I wrote a recent article for Anthropology.net on the Iceman: http://anthropology.net/user/cfeagans/blog/2007/03/20/new_research_on_tzi_the_iceman_cometh

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2518iceman.html

"Archaeologists assumed that happened about 4,000 years ago in this region. But the Iceman with his copper axe was 5,000 years old—proof that the transition from the Neolithic to the Copper Age happened much earlier than previously thought."

Edit: Nice article. Interesting he was probably killed. Also it appears he does not have mitochondrial decendents ( mitochondrial haplogroup K - he belonged to). Whomever killed him may have slaughtered his people.

Ya Otzi's axe is a softball OOPA for the Scientific community to adjust to.

Again, this sort of thing is what archaeologists hope for and even expect. Our "truths" in archaeology are like those of any science and thus provisional. We can only say where the transition from neolithic to copper/bronze ages is demarcated by noting where the data points lie chronologically. Once a data point is empirically shown to exist that outlies the rest, we can cheerfully revise what we know. The transition from stone to metal obviously isn't a demarcation that is abrupt (there are still cultures that make heavy use of stone tools).

The OOPA crowd, however, tends to lean toward spurious artifacts. Artifacts that either don't actually exist in the contexts they are placed/assumed or contexts that are misinterpreted and cherry-picked to present data to support various hypotheses like an exaggerated antiquity of man on the order of millions of years.

I think we need define what we mean when we say "out of place" in the OOPA term. Cremo and Hancock consistently mean those artifacts which provide major disagreement with current paradigms and understandings of human existence, not the minor, revising artifacts such as Otzi's ax. Now,if Otzi was dated to more than 10,000 years ago... then it would be something of much greater significance!

I see where you are coming from, I will limit this to outrageous OOPAs. So is the Antikythera device outrageous?

To be honest, I've been about to read the Archaeology magazine article on the Antikyrhera device for almost a month now, but haven't been able find the time to sit down to it. My knowledge of the device is limited to a few news articles I remember seeing recently when they finally finished examining it. I don't recall seeing anything that involved any technology or knowledge that shouldn't or couldn't have existed. I never thought of it as an "outrageous" device but, rather, as a mysterious one since it was so difficult to examine and determine the purpose and workings until now.