View Full Version : Occam's Razor
10-10-99, 04:30 AM
From the time of our emergence as a species, it seems we have been religious or prone to pyschic experiences. Are they caused by real events or experiences? Is there a GOD?Could most of human pre-history and recorded history be wrong? Could 95% of the world's population be wrong? Why are our brains wired
to a 'God module'? In this interconnected universe; with patterns, physicals laws, cycles, and teeming life, is it all a random
event? A coincidental accident? What are the mathematical probabilities that we would evolve as humans? And with consciousness? What purpose does that serve us as a species?
Is it important to the survival of our species? Or is it to be aware, is to know GOD? Are we a random chance? Does GOD exist?
I say, that using Occam's razor, it is the simplest answer! That there is a GOD! Why? What are the chances that this universe would put us at this point, with all the little pieces fitting in. Are there patterns to this universe? Do we as humans show any evidence of being 'made', as in the quote from the Bible, we are "fearfully and wonderfully made", and I say the universe sings out that very song. After taking physiology, anthropology, biology, astronomy, and chemistry in college, I am more convinced that there was a 'spark' or causetive agent that started it all. Every where you turn, you see the hand of GOD in all HIS creation. Ask yourself, are we really a cosmic accident? What are the chances we would get to this point? Just to exist and ask these questions puts us into the outer reaches of mathmatical probability!
An unmade universe would not care one wit, if we evolved or stayed one-celled! So, here we are. Debating the fine points of GOD's existence. As I've said before, whether there is an Eternity or an eternity of nothingness, we will not know the answer until our death. Occam's razor cuts both ways! On the chances that GOD exists, wouldn't you want to know HIM? Read the Bible, its GOD's WORD. Think of it as a technical manual for this life and the afterlife! Read it, Jesus said, "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice
and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me". What have you got to lose? Find out. Is it logical? You have to answer that for yourselves. But next time you look to the stars, ask yourself, 'What created all this? Are we alone? Is there a GOD? Is there a purpose in life? Or to life?
Why am I here?'. The answers are there, look for GOD and HE will find you!
Are you shitting me???
If anything, the universe contradicts the Bible in practically everything! And, I would like to remind you that until very recently, 100% of all human population through all human history thought that the Earth was flat. Oh well, so much for the "flat earth" module...
P.S. Isn't it strange how they could all have been so wrong? In my opinion, it's just plain mind-boggling...NOT!!!
I am; therefore I think.
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 10, 1999).]
Come on, man. For such a well-educated man, you are so stupid sometimes. Randolfo's questions are soooooo valid, as if you find the answers, or should I say even the most probable answer, it is "yes, there is a God". These are the EXACT same questions that I began my search for the truth with years ago. Why is the blankity-blank do you keep bringing up the "flat world" thing? Is your deduction that because people once assumed the world was flat, then there is no God? That makes no flippin' sense whatsoever. The two topics aren't even related in the slightest bit. See, you keep making the same mistake with the assumption that the only reason that people believe in God is because their stupid. FOR THE GAZILLIONTH TIME BORIS.....F'ING LISTEN TO ME ALREADY.....THAT'S NOT THE REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE TOTALLY WRONG IN THIS ASSUMPTION. HELLO, HELLO????? HOW MANY TIMES DO I FLIPPIN HAVE TO TELL YOU THIS BEFORE YOU GET IT IN YOUR FAT HEAD????????? Now listen, people believe in God, because he manifests undeniable proof in their lives and in their hearts. UNDENIABLE PROOF. Did you hear that? Are you paying attention? Hello?
God loves you and so do I!
10-10-99, 07:57 PM
Either that, or you are all deluding yourselves in a quest for inner security.
Why do you assume that we (humanity) are the culmination of some plan or algorithm?
[This message has been edited by FyreStar (edited October 10, 1999).]
No, fire-boy, wrong answer. Quit assuming things that you know nothing about. I'm talking about slap you in the face proof. It's not even a pleasant thing to have to go through. It's not a security thing at all. You totally don't know what you're talking about. It's much much easier to feel secure in thinking that there is no God, or God is nature, or God is the universe, or someday if I reincarnate enough times I'll get to be God. Much easier, as it throws the concept of absolutes and judgement out the window. Think about it....
God loves you and so do I!
10-11-99, 12:07 PM
Is "you don't know what you are talking about" your stock answer? I hear that from you a lot.. it seems like you ignore that which you find harmful to your beliefs. You are certainly wrong about one thing; the concept of judgement does not go out the window; rather, it brings the responsibility of moral analysis to yourself. What people choose to do with it there is a personal choice. If it throws the concept of absolutes out the windows, then so be it, because there simply are no absoultes outside of math and science. Good and evil are simply concepts used by humans to soothe their emotional states.
When was the last time that you asked Jesus to forgive your sins, and accepted Him as your saviour, and prayed for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and His protection, and for the truth? That's why I keep saying that a lot of people don't know what I'm talking about. They can't possibly. It's something that you have to experience yourself. And I'm sorry, but if your fluffy little "no fault" religion is what you choose to believe then that is your choice. Your beliefs must be very convenient for you. Judgement creates accountability. Do you know what it will be like? It will be the truth revealed about the true meaning of your life. You will know all of the consequences of your actions, all of them, good and bad, and you will experience the pain caused, and the joy given. That is the only thing that can perpetuate accountability. Otherwise, there always tends to be a reason, a rationalization, an excuse. There is true strength and power in the word of God.
God loves you and so do I!
10-12-99, 01:10 PM
The last time? Maybe it was about the same time as my last encounter with the easter bunny. And how exactly are my beliefs "convenient"? What do I have that you don't? Let's see.. ultimate responsibility for myself and my actions.. a lack of surety that I will somehow live beyond my biological end.. the knowledge that I am not fooling myself.
In regards to accountability, are you saying that nobody without your particular religious views have any morals whatsoever? Or is it just atheists?
What exactly is a "no fault" religion?
I'm sorry, but if your fluffy little "god thing" is what you choose to believe, that is your choice. However, don't expect others to sit back and swallow the same old "I am right because I am" speech.
Do I want to know what it will be like? Well, I always like surprises, but actually, I already know. Our bodies will die, and, having nothing to furthur sustain it, the function we dub "conciousness" will abruptly cease. We shall know nothing beyond our last moment, and at that moment, will know nothing at all. Please show me the part I am taking comfort in.
[This message has been edited by FyreStar (edited October 12, 1999).]
FyreStar-I'm not trying to be arbitrary, but if you're so opposed to religion, why are you in the Religious Debate forum?
10-17-99, 12:14 AM
.... to participate in debate concerning religion? And either way, I do not believe I ever stated I was opposed to religion.
Firstly, Occam's razor, as understood by the layman, is a totally absurd persuasive argument. I can't imagine why people are so thoroughly impressed with it (well...actually i can :)). The most glaring problem is how to define "simplicity". The second problem is that Occam's razor, as defined by the layman, is wrong anyways. What is simple is not necessarily correct.
Ask yourself, are we really a cosmic accident? What are the chances we would get to this point? Just to exist and ask these questions puts us into the outer reaches of mathmatical probability!
Well, this is an absurd question. We cannot calculate the chances of evolution taking us to the point of consciousness. We can only accept that we have reached this stage (obviously, if we had not, we would not be asking such a question!). The chances of our creation through pure randomness may be infinitely small, but that doesn't matter to us. All we care is that the probability wasn't zero.
You claim that by creation by a god is a simpler explanation than random creation. (Again, I reiterate that Occam's razor is not a valid argument). I would argue, even though I am dismissing Occam's razor, that creation by deity is, in fact, a much more complex solution than random creation.
Random creation requires nothing more than a set of rules (the physical laws) and a large sample (a large # of universes, perhaps).
Creation by deity requires an explanation of motivation, of design, etc. You also much explain the deity himself ... how did he come into being? By what mechanism is he able to manipulate the stuff of creation? ...and so on.
Breaking it down to the very simplest level,
a random universe requires only 1 system - the universe. Creation by deity requires at least 2 systems - the universe and the deity (and so on up the creation hierarchy). Thus, even though Occam's razor is unpersuasive and technically unsound, your argument fails.
10-17-99, 06:15 AM
I'd just like to comment about your 10/11 post, and what a crock of bubbling sh*t it is. I spent the first 14 or 15 years of my life caught up in the Christian world, and I know what its all about. When was the last time *I* asked Jesus to forgive my sins, and accepted Him as my saviour, and prayed for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and His protection, and for the truth? Well, lets see... that'd be about 4 years ago or so. And you know what it did for me? Absolutely nothing. I prayed to God for every night for years on end to help me through my life, to help me through family problems, etc, and you know what he did for me? Nothing. You know how much proof of "God" I've seen in the world? None. Nada. The sole, single reason I call myself an "athiest with agnostic tendencies" is because I can't wrap my mind around "forever before," but everything else in this world I can rationalize without the use of some all-encompassing "God" theory. As far as I'm concerned, Christianity deserves respect only in the sense that it is the single greatest work of mass-brainwashing in the history of the world. The application of religion of any sort does have some redeeming aspects that I won't get into here, but the concept of spending your whole life subserviant to some ineffable universal overlord just seems so completely ludicrous to me.
Also, back up a few posts to the world is flat argument. Does relatively recent evidence that the world is round disprove the existance of God? No, certainly not. What it does prove is the frailty of human assumptions. You can't understand the process of human/universal evolution, so you stick the "God Business" label on the whole package, shrug your shoulders and move on with your happy little life. Mankind did the exact same thing with the earth's shape in past centuries. They looked around, and said "Gosh, the earth doesn't LOOK round...must be flat." The adopted a seemingly impervious opinion which, until proof to the contrary manifested itself, rationalized away any doubt in their minds. This is exactly what religion does.
"Not all who wander are lost..."
I don't see why everyone has to argue about it. Why can't everybody just respect the possibility of everyone being right or wrong? I believe God created this universe, just because of the vast beauty and pure awesomeness of it all. I look at the intricacies of life and think about stuff like the golden mean and how mathematics and science seem to link it all together in the coolest ways. I look up at the stars and just think, "damn that kicks ass." No matter which side of Occam's razor you look at, you could be just as wrong as the next guy. Now I think that the bible has a lot of inconsistancies throughout it, and I don't take every word literally, mainly because it was written by these guys thousands of years ago. Their interpretation of the universe and its origins were written in order for them to understand in their time. I'm sure if it would've been written today it would be completely different all together. Regardless, I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned from it, no matter what you believe. But essentially I think science and religeon will all come together some day. For me they are one and the same.
Hey, Randolfo -
If you want to understand the experiences upon which religions are built visit:
Mierdaan-God can't work with a hardened heart. You're blaming God for your pain and, forgive me if I'm too personal, He can't give help where He's not welcome. For your shrug their shoulders comment--God helps those who help themselves. Even if one is a Christian, she should have gumption.
If experiencing God is not pleasant why in the world would anyone want to go through it!? Unless you want to be the one who can stand there and say, look at all the pain I've gone through... poor me.
As far as not deluding yourself, drug addicts do it very well! So many times people who do not use drugs or alcohol also do such a fine job at it. A sure sign of this tends be someone who chooses to shout that they are right and everyone is wrong.
The Belief that there is only truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
[This message has been edited by 666 (edited October 21, 1999).]
10-30-99, 11:01 PM
Time out! There's no reason to get all excited, whether we learn the answers or not
in our lifetimes is debatable, but since we are arguing this over the cyberion ether, there's no reason to not treat each other in a civil manner. At the minimum as penpals. So
anyway, to get back to the question; If there is no God how did this all start?? Is this all the result of random accidents? And why do we have consciousness?? Is there more life out there or are we unique? Anyway, we may all see the world under whatever world-view or bias that has become 'us', so the answers may never be seen by us because they do not fit our world-view. But I am curious why someone would sign themselves as the beast of Revelation? I hope you understand that the implications of that name are doom to billions? Why would anyone follow in Hitler's footsteps? Just for effect? Or are there more deeper meanings to you as a person? Why would anyone us this symbolism? Here in Fresno, a local gang has tatooed their foreheads with that symbol to show that they are evil, tough & beyond mercy. But
I hope that just everyday joes & janes are beyond that sort of banality. We may not be philosophers or scientists, but our thoughts are important to us and I hope to those that we ultimely become friends with. Anyway, one day we will all find out if God exists, if after we die we wake up to judgement or to nothingness. Questions looking for answers or .......????
If there is no God how did this all start?
If there is a God, how did it all start <u>for it</u>? Occam's Razor comes to mind...
Plus, if everything from the Planck time onward derives from itself at the previous "time step" -- we wouldn't need God to explain how the various features of the universe came about, why and how certain things happen, what the nature of consciousness is, or whether there is other life out there.
I am; therefore I think.
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 30, 1999).]