I was just curious. this 19 yr old boy loved his girlfriend. it was their anniversary, so they were both sitting on the seawall of lake michigan watching the fireworks. the girl dropped a bottle of water into the lake, so her boyfriend apparently hung himself over the seawall to try and reach it with his foot (media says he jumped, girlfriend, parent of girlfriend and close friend said he reached, not jumped) he couldnt pull himself back up so the girl tried to pull him up but she wasn't strong enough, so he fell in. he started to scream but noone would help them. the girl said she tried to make it to him but he was 20 feet from shore and his head had gone under. he was trying to make it to some ladders to get out. the water was around freezing. shoreline temp being 0-1c. she watched him drown right in front of her at midnight.

however the biological mom said he didn't know how to swim, or that he 'could only doggypaddle' but could someone who only knew that acheive that distance with clothes, and a undercurrent? even if the water wasn't rough. the girlfriends mom said the boy didnt have a close relationship with his biological mother and he left at 15. and she said hed been swimming with them all summer, but there arent any photos on facebook aside from a waterpark where you cant swim in. but there was a pic of the mom on a boat in lake michigan, so did he swim in open waters before? idk. I'm confused and would like someones interpretation on this. apparently he put 'swimming' as one of his intrests on facebook? the girlfriend and him were dating for a year. but were friends for a while I think. the girlfriends mom said he was like a son to them, the girlfriend was mad at what the papers said.

someone said even someone who can't swim would've made it that far and he probably just splashed and panicked his way there and if he was in a pool a strong swimmer would not have made it? this boy was apparently really bright? Could he swim? Could he not swim? Good swimmer/bad swimmer? I am so confused and please answers only and no insulting comments because I will report them. This is a serious question as I partly knew those involved.

I am very sorry to hear of this incident with persons that you knew, LeBlanc. I live in the Yukon, Canada, and our large bodies of fresh water are extremely cold, even in summer, as many are glacier fed.

If you fall into such cold water, even with a personal flotation device, your life expectancy is under 20 minutes.

Here are some facts relating to the immediate effects of icy water on the human body and how quickly our ability to help ourselves fails. If one is unfortunate enough to gasp water into the lungs immediately, keeping one's head above water might become impossible, especially taking into consideration that they would be dressed for chilly weather and those layers of clothing become a drag as soon as they are saturated.


Cold Shock

On falling into cold water, cold receptors in the skin cause immediate physiological responses, the first of which is a “gasp” reflex. If this happens when your head is under water, you are in deep trouble.

Next, you begin to hyperventilate, within seconds, your heart begins to race, and your blood pressure spikes. Hyperventilation may make it difficult to get air into your lungs, leading to panic and further hyperventilation.

These symptoms can trigger cardiac arrest in susceptible individuals. Even healthy individuals will have difficulty keeping their airways above water without a flotation aid while undergoing these major physiological stresses.

The effects of cold shock normally peak within the first minute and stabilize very soon thereafter.

Cold Incapacity

After a few minutes, the muscles of your limbs are affected. Neuromuscular activity slows and body fluids literally congeal in the muscles.

You feel the effects first in your hands and fingers. Then the deeper tissues in your arms and legs cease to operate properly. It becomes more and more difficult to perform any tasks requiring manual dexterity, such as using flares or other survival equipment.

Survivors have reported that after a few minutes it was impossible to open a package of flares or to tie a knot in a line.

After ten minutes immersion in very cold water, your arms and legs will no longer respond to your will. Even experienced swimmers have difficulty co-ordinating breathing and swimming strokes; short swims may be impossible.

In heavy weather you have difficulty keeping your face out of the spray and you may not be able to avoid inhaling water.

You will certainly have difficulty keeping your airway above the water without the assistance of a flotation aid.

During these two periods, the major risk of death is from drowning, caused by the body’s reaction to cold water. Any water less than 15 C (59 F) will trigger these physical reactions, though the colder the water, the more severe the response. Some experts suggest that if you are in water that is warm enough not to trigger these physiological reactions, then your biggest problem will be shark attack instead.


Most victims of cold water immersion actually die of drowning, not hypothermia—and many drowning victims were very close to safety when they died. For instance, the Canadian Safe Boating Council / SmartRisk Study showed that between 1991 and 2000, 41% of those who drowned while boating were within 10 meters of shore at the time. An additional 22% were within 10 to 15 meters of shore. A British study from 1977 showed that 55% of open water drownings occurred within 3 meters of safety!!! And two thirds of drowning victims were strong swimmers.

http://www.shipwrite.bc.ca/Chilling_truth.htm

It would not matter at all if the boy had been an excellent swimmer. Cold water is extremely dangerous and incapacitating. :(

I don't understand what your question is LeBlanc could you just ask what it is that you want to know. If it is why he did not make it to the ladder I think scheherazade has given a good reason for him not to. Why people drown sometimes isn't always clear. Since this happened at midnight it could be he didn't know where the shore line was exactly and was disoriented in the freezing water. All you can do is help the friends and family deal with this tradgedy and by doing so you'll be helping yourself as well.

Why was he reaching for a bottle floating in water with his foot?

I was just curious. this 19 yr old boy loved his girlfriend. it was their anniversary, so they were both sitting on the seawall of lake michigan watching the fireworks. the girl dropped a bottle of water into the lake, so her boyfriend apparently hung himself over the seawall to try and reach it with his foot (media says he jumped, girlfriend, parent of girlfriend and close friend said he reached, not jumped) he couldnt pull himself back up so the girl tried to pull him up but she wasn't strong enough, so he fell in. he started to scream but noone would help them. the girl said she tried to make it to him but he was 20 feet from shore and his head had gone under. he was trying to make it to some ladders to get out. the water was around freezing. shoreline temp being 0-1c. she watched him drown right in front of her at midnight.

however the biological mom said he didn't know how to swim, or that he 'could only doggypaddle' but could someone who only knew that acheive that distance with clothes, and a undercurrent? even if the water wasn't rough. the girlfriends mom said the boy didnt have a close relationship with his biological mother and he left at 15. and she said hed been swimming with them all summer, but there arent any photos on facebook aside from a waterpark where you cant swim in. but there was a pic of the mom on a boat in lake michigan, so did he swim in open waters before? idk. I'm confused and would like someones interpretation on this. apparently he put 'swimming' as one of his intrests on facebook? the girlfriend and him were dating for a year. but were friends for a while I think. the girlfriends mom said he was like a son to them, the girlfriend was mad at what the papers said.

someone said even someone who can't swim would've made it that far and he probably just splashed and panicked his way there and if he was in a pool a strong swimmer would not have made it? this boy was apparently really bright? Could he swim? Could he not swim? Good swimmer/bad swimmer? I am so confused and please answers only and no insulting comments because I will report them. This is a serious question as I partly knew those involved.
Firstly, I am sorry for your loss.

Secondly, you are asking us to answer questions on something we don't really know about. No one here knows the circumstances of how this happened. We do not know if he could swim or not.

A lot of what you are recounting seems to be from 3rd and 4th parties.

My advice would be to ask those who were there and who knew him best.

Why was he reaching for a bottle floating in water with his foot?
I don't get that either. Why would you suspend yourself over freezing water to reach a bottle that was obviously out of reach in the first place?

:shrug:

I am sure there are witnesses who will say how it happened. It's not really our place to guess.

::Edit::

Google didn't help:


Woytoynik called 911 and told responding officers that she and her boyfriend were sitting on the edge of an embankment near the lake when her water bottle dropped in the water, according to a police report.

Hilling jumped into the water to try and retrieve the bottle but began struggling.

”I tried to make it to him but he was 20 feet away from shore and his head went under water,’’ Woytoynik said.

[Source (http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Man-Drowns-Trying-to-Get-Bottle-in-Lake-Michigan-Chicago-Police-Michael-Hilling-Rock-Michigan-112770739.html)]



Why would anyone go into freezing water near midnight to get a bottle of water?:bugeye: And even if he didn't jump in as you claim, why would anyone lean precariously over a seawall to reach a bottle water that had fallen into freezing water in the middle of the night?

Was alcohol or drugs involved?

|| The posts above are originally from the thread "Depressed over the death of friend on this Day."


subject was skinny, 'nerdy' looking if you will, wore clothes and it happened in the dead of winter on a chicago seawall. the witness claimed the cold and fatigue/panic overtook him. there wasn't a current, but there was a suction/undercurrent going on at the location, especially during winters even if it's calm. he started to scream then his gf told him to swim to some ladders. he hung himself off the ledge to reach something that'd fallen in. but he didn't make it. the girl said he was 20 feet away and his head went under. she tried to get others to help but they didn't, so i assume this happened quite quickly. but im not sure

his mom said he could only doggy-paddle, but she only knew him up until he was 15, then he moved to his girlfriend's family, where they said he swam all summer with them. i think he swam in lake michigan but isn't that not for non-swimmers or bad swimmers? confused

Could he swim

why did he go under

if he couldn't, was he suicidal/murdered?

why did his mom say he couldn't if he could? then the others the complete opposite.
was he a bad/good swimmer

If he didn't doggy-paddle, then what swim stroke would he have used.
Would a non-swimmer/doggypaddler normally make it that far? for a non swimmer eg splashing to survive.

I'd like those answered....



She tried to make it to him but he was 20ft away from shore
noone in the boys bio family could swim and they were sort of red necks as well
the kid was allegedly really bright....at least when I knew him 6 months before he died..I am still deeply saddened by this, and NYE passing recently did not help.

I have since tried to contact the girlfriend (witness) and the girlfriend's mother, but for 2 days they have not replied despite an active account.

I asked this on another site only to get abuse from trolls who didn't even bother to answer the questions. So please take your time to answer them individually.... thank you very much..

What do you want to know? Going into the cold water is a bad idea, he might have just slipped and fallen in. I can't say why he would try to get something in the water.

Sorry for your loss.

I don't think anyone here has the answers you're looking for.

Question 1 - Could he swim. What type of swimmer, eg. good/bad, doggypaddle/freestyle, etc.

Question 2 - Why did he put swimming as an interest on facebook.

Quesiton 3 - Why did his own mother say he couldn't swim, (only paddle) yet others said the complete opposite?

Quesiton 4 - Why did he go under.

Question 5 - Why would an intelligent boy, non-swimmer HANG himself off of a un barred chicago seawall to reach a waterbottle that'd fallen in?

Question 6 - The girlfriend's mother says he'd been swimming with them many times (all summer) but the only pics of him in water were at an indoor waterpark, way too shallow to swim in.

Cold water is a factor, there is an immediate shock to the system, you can't take a deep breath, then you lose fine motor control, then hypothermia sets in, you can't think properly. Maybe he had hypothermia before he went in?

Edit: You didn't mention the water bottle. Perhaps he was just foolish for going after it and drowned from a combination of the shock and currents.

That's only Question 4 answered...could you please try and answer the others? I'd appreciate it.. the questions are in bold.

As I said, maybe he just made a foolish decision. Maybe alcohol or drugs were involved. Even a good swimmer isn't used to winter conditions. I used to swim in the ocean in Maine, and you could die from hypothermia in a matter of minutes, even in the summer time.

Well Question 4 and 5 are answered..but there's still others there, mainly regarding his swimming ability/what the girlfriend's mom said in comparison to the mother he left at 15.

I'm sure there will always be questions when such a tragedy occurs.

Yes, but I find it much more reassuring for people to try to answer them..
*She tried to make it to him but he was 20 feet away and she watched him drown.

The Questions that remain....

Question 1 - Could he swim. What type of swimmer, eg. good/bad, doggypaddle/freestyle, etc.

Question 2 - Why did he put swimming as an interest on facebook.

Quesiton 3 - Why did his own mother say he couldn't swim, (only paddle) yet others said the complete opposite?


Question 6 - The girlfriend's mother says he'd been swimming with them many times (all summer) but the only pics of him in water were at an indoor waterpark, way too shallow to swim in.

I'd really appreciate those answered....

anyone...? *sigh*

How are we supposed to know if he can swim? It might actually be irrelevant, since the temperature of the water would affect even the strongest swimmer. Maybe he wanted to learn to swim, and it was an interest, but he hadn't learned yet.

I'd be asking what the hell were they doing by the river at 12 midnight trying to retrieve a bottle that must have been very hard to see in a black river and no lights out. :shrug:

As already mentioned the water was freezing and it doesn't take but a few minutes to get hypothermia and die. Perhaps he could swim but the fact of the freezing water killed him rather than not being able to swim.

It was Lake Michigan, not a river...

It was Lake Michigan, not a river...

Lake or river what's the difference, they were out at 12 midnight and looking for a bottle in a very dark unlite body of water. Why were they there then is what I'd be asking. But did you understand about hypothermia killing him and not that he could or could not swim?

Yes...but even a poor swimmer / one who could only doggy paddle would make it more than 20ft in that temperature. eg. spashing to survive...(at least, that's what my friend told me)

I answered this question in your other thread.

The effect of cold water on human biology is greatly underestimated by those who have not experienced it.

Surely the coroner's office will be able to answer many of these questions after the investigation?

As for why the young man put himself at risk, we may never know. People often overestimate their capabilities/underestimate the dangers.

I remain sorry for your loss but I can understand the girlfriend and mother needing time to grieve and make arrangements.

I tried to contact the authorities, but the case is closed, and with blurred answers... again questions 123 and 6.. I got no reply even when I tried to contact the girlfriend witness and the girlfriend's mother on facebook.

And Lake Michigan isn't rapidly moving water...

bump...
she told him to swim to some ladders so idk

Why are you asking again?
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=111793

Because this time, I have made it clear as to what I want answered.

Question 1 - Could he swim. What type of swimmer, eg. good/bad, doggypaddle/freestyle, etc.

How are strangers on the internet supposed to be able to answer this? We don't even have his name.


Question 2 - Why did he put swimming as an interest on facebook.

Maybe he liked swimming? How are strangers on the internet supposed to answer this? We don't even have a link to his facebook page.


Quesiton 3 - Why did his own mother say he couldn't swim, (only paddle) yet others said the complete opposite?

Somebody must have been wrong.


Quesiton 4 - Why did he go under.

How are strangers on the internet supposed to answer this? We don't know the weather conditions. We don't know if the waves were high or low. We know that the water was very cold, and lots of people have already commented on that. We don't know his swimming ability.

So, it seems that at least part of the explanation is: cold water, and perhaps he wasn't a strong swimmer.


Question 5 - Why would an intelligent boy, non-swimmer HANG himself off of a un barred chicago seawall to reach a waterbottle that'd fallen in?

We don't know if we was a non-swimmer or not. Some people said he was. I'm told he put swimming as an interest on facebook. Maybe he was a GREAT swimmer.

We don't know if he was drunk or on drugs. We don't know whether it was a horrible, unlucky accident. How are strangers on the internet supposed to answer this? We know practically nothing about the guy or the circumstances.


Question 6 - The girlfriend's mother says he'd been swimming with them many times (all summer) but the only pics of him in water were at an indoor waterpark, way too shallow to swim in.

People often don't take cameras swimming. Most cameras are not waterproof.

you're saying you're suspecting "they" killed him? and you want us science guys to give you or lead you in the direction of proof? assist in your investigation?

. . . IMHO . . . probably a 'muscular cramp' in lower extremeties or diaphragm, perhaps complicated by general body or cardiac shock and thermal stress. Ever had a leg cramp that totally incapacitated you for several minutes?

BTW: Very sorry for your loss . . .

|| Threads "Depressed over the death of friend on this Day" and "Please Answer the Following Questions about my Friends death" have been merged (see top of post #7).

Yes...but even a poor swimmer / one who could only doggy paddle would make it more than 20ft in that temperature. eg. spashing to survive...(at least, that's what my friend told me)

What if he were pushed in? What if she had another friend help her to keep him from getting back onto shore? What if she only wanted to get rid of him because she was a serial killer? So many unanswered questions that can be thought of.

What if pigs grew wings and flew to the moon?

What if pigs grew wings and flew to the moon?

No more bacon for breakfast...:bawl:

What if pigs grew wings and flew to the moon?

That is totally inappropriate for this thread, James.

wynn:

What about post #35? Is that totally inappropriate too?

I asked some sensible questions in post #31.

Question 1 - Could he swim. What type of swimmer, eg. good/bad, doggypaddle/freestyle, etc.

Let's get back to this question in a bit.

Question 2 - Why did he put swimming as an interest on facebook.

There are three reasons he would put this as an interest on facebook that I can think of.

R1. He could swim and it was a hobby of his. You should be able to confirm this, and this seems to me like the most plausible reason. One that has an interest in a physical activity generally knows how to engage in said physical activity.

R2. He was very interested in swimming (competitive, or maybe just the sport in itself, if he was your friend do you recollect him talking about swimming, or maybe people he looked up to? Such as Phelps?)

R3. He simply placed it there to look like he had an interest or knowledge of swimming to impress others. Once again, this is something only you, the friend that knew him personally can confirm or deny (based on how well you knew him).

Quesiton 3 - Why did his own mother say he couldn't swim, (only paddle) yet others said the complete opposite?

You said him and his mother are not close. Maybe she is lying, or she doesn't know her son very well. My dad does not know a lot of things about me that I'm sure he'd be surprised to learn about.


Question 6 - The girlfriend's mother says he'd been swimming with them many times (all summer) but the only pics of him in water were at an indoor waterpark, way too shallow to swim in.

This seems to be the truth, there is no real reason for the person to lie. Right? Ask yourself that question: Why would his gf's mother lie?

So in conclusion he was able to swim, all of the signs indicate that he did based on what you are telling me, and it seems like he was killed mainly due to the weather/conditions which he went in as the other people posting here are saying. I myself have had a few near-death experiences related to drowning from when I was a child and swam out into the ocean and also when I tried to dive into the sea with clothes on (And the weather both times the water was around 50-60 degrees F).

I have never been in freezing water (only coldest of about 40 F which I consider deathly), but I'd imagine even a professional swimmer wouldn't last long with clothes on in that condition. Odds are your friend wasn't in the best shape like a pro athlete, exhausted himself getting to the bottle, after he got there, time expired and the adrenaline ran out, the cold set in, and his muscles locked up and he panicked, then ended up dying by being partially immobilized by the cold water.

Who knows why he went out, maybe as a dare, maybe to impress his gf to make her think he was macho, maybe because he was drunk, or whatever. It could be anything really, but the point is that it doesn't matter, it is done, he is dead and nothing will bring him back so fretting over the past, especially when it is over something where knowing or not knowing makes no impact on you in the present or future, is not a smart thing to do nor is it beneficial.

I believe the answer is and was right in front of you based on how you told the story (I suspect you had an idea that you already knew since you seemed to be hinting at certain possibilities), but maybe you're just in denial about the death, you want to believe something else. Whatever it is, I don't think wondering about small details like this will provide you with the closure you seek. Maybe you should look deeper at the relationship you had with this friend, and anyone related like the gf or the mom... Either way, figure it out and talk it out with someone you are close to. I'm sorry for your loss, hope everything turns out alright.

Question 1 - Could he swim. What type of swimmer, eg. good/bad, doggypaddle/freestyle, etc.

Does it mater? Bellow freezing at mid night fall from what, a 6 foot barrier, being swept 20 feet into lake Michigan, head goes under. He probably inhaled sea water and that was it. He saw the ladder, and his girlfriend, probably his final two thoughts.


Question 2 - Why did he put swimming as an interest on facebook.

He was most likely interested in swimming.


Quesiton 3 - Why did his own mother say he couldn't swim, (only paddle) yet others said the complete opposite?

Honest mistake.


Quesiton 4 - Why did he go under.

Bumped his head on the fall.


Question 5 - Why would an intelligent boy, non-swimmer HANG himself off of a un barred chicago seawall to reach a waterbottle that'd fallen in?


Play tough guy hero for his damsel in distress.


Question 6 - The girlfriend's mother says he'd been swimming with them many times (all summer) but the only pics of him in water were at an indoor waterpark, way too shallow to swim in.

Why did she say that? Because it probably happened...

LeBlanc, I'll tell you this - even IF he could swim, was a strong swimmer, incredibly bright, et all... water that cold puts you into a state of sudden shock that can quickly incapacitate you if you aren't ready/expecting it (and even THEN it still can). There are so many unknowns in this - did he hit his head/back on the way down, did the shock of the water cause him to inhale said water (quickening the panic and thus drowning), etc... so much we just don't know. I'm sorry bud, but to hazard a guess at any of this is just that - guesswork.

anyone...? *sigh*
Stop whining L.
--Stuff happens and some questions are not answerable.
--There is no reason to expect foul play, especially when you have the factors of :
1) frigid cold conditions
2) strong current (person immediately floats 20 feet from shore)
3) judgement incompetence of task (trying to save a water bottle, with the foresight acknowledgement of factors 1 and 2 plainly available to the eye.

And why would the GF be accused of foul play, though it is possible, I just dont see it. He probably swallowed lake water and bumped something on the way down making him woozy. He saw the ladder then he panicked and died. RIP

And why would the GF be accused of foul play, though it is possible, I just dont see it. He probably swallowed lake water and bumped something on the way down making him woozy. He saw the ladder then he panicked and died. RIP

LeBlanc is cryptic in their expected needs of those posters present. The poster is left wondering of the intent of the questions asked. Perhaps under the grips of personal mourning.

Large bodies of water are dangerous.
They take lives on an hourly basis.

--Keep the eyes open.
--Make careful movements
--Have a back-up plan and a safe evacuation direction.

Lucky enough the girl is safe.
It is from "guilt of not doing anything", and the "blind adrenalin of needing to save a loved one" that makes multiple victim situations unfold.
Many victims die from entering a burning building, or wild surf, trying to save loved ones, pets, or precious family memorabilia.