I have been visibly gone from sciforums all week because of the horrible terrorist attack upon the United States of America.

From Tuesday, I sat in my Spanish class, and heard the report over the radio. So nervous and shocked by the apparent carnage, absent of photographic representation, I was shaking like I'd been dunked in a cold lake. These next few days have been hard on me as well as those in the US, and the free world.

No one, especially a grown man should be ashamed of showing emotion, crying or being sad over this event. A true man can show emotion and not be scared of doing so. This must be a wakeup call to never let this happen, but more importantly we should use this event to reshape what it means to be American.

From now until the end of the world, we as Americans in particular must be caring and understanding not of only the world's people, but our own neighbors. The next time you get in an argument ask yourself, "is this worth arguing about? Should I be wasting my time screaming at someone I love, instead of telling them I love them?"

We must only judge people by their actions, and not by anything they have been born with, physical, mental, or spiritual. Let us not participate in the pagan act of glorifiying violence through the media outlets, life is to sacred to be a made a martyr of entertainment.

These more than any war or bounty will stop wars and terrorism. If we do not participate in changing the way we think, then these things are bound to happen.

NEVER FORGET

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" -- Albert Einstein.


We need a few great spirits now to guide us into the future.

!

Great spirits are everywhere, even in USA.
And we all have the capacity, now more than ever, to BECOME great spirits.
The choice is yours and it has to me made, now.

:)

ah, philosophy....

The handwriting was on the wall, now we are serious and will be able to summon the great spirits....

Never one to hide from a debate, I think I must take a somewhat dissenting view. At the last Formula One race, Michael Shumacher asked all of the racers to take it easy and travel in single file in the first lap. This would be to show support of the people who lost loved ones in the terrorist attacks. There was only one dissenting voice, and he too coincidentally was a Canadian. Jaques Villeneuve told Shumacher "I am a racer...I will race...that is what I do." To do less would be to show disrespect, not respect.

I am a radical free thinker. It is what I do. I will free associate my thoughts and spell them out here. Some may dislike it, some may dislike me, but that's okay. It was Don Cherry another Canadian who said "When you take a stand, some people will love you and some will hate you. There is no in between."

Having said that, all humans show grief, and I am no more or no less a person than anyone. I applaud your post "thecurly1", but lets use these forums to "free associate" solutions and figure out a way to foil all kinds of terrorism. There are a lot of us out there, lets brainstorm. Who knows something powerful may be achieved.
T.

Ultimately killing others to achieve goals is a very demented, and dark feature of human nature. I don't know how to defeate terrorism except for this one idea:

Destroy all these fanatical organizations, and the countries that harbor them.

Rebuild the countries so they will be free insitutions of the people and more closely adress the problems of the world's religion's with eachother. Ultimately this is a war between religions, and even more basic ideologies. If we can't work together, than only one can exist.

I am dedicated to seeing civil ization triump over anarchy, by any means possible.

Terrorism is based on fear. Not fear caused by the terrorists per se, but they are scared of us, do they react in a heartless and cruel way. Everyone in the world needs to have an opportunity to talk to people from different cultures and religions. A year ago, I was the sponsor for a group of Egyptian people who also happened to be Muslim. I found them some of the nicest people that I have ever met. We just need to find a way to bring everyone together.
T.

Actually terrorism is not based on fear. Fear is the effect of an act to reach their goal. To solve it, you must understand the purpose and cause of that act.

Here is an example. Some a**hole murdered a American Sikh thinking that because we wears a turban and has beard, he must be a supporter of Osama. While it is a hate crime, if the police look the other way, it will create resentment among the Sikh community. Normally Sikhs are peace loving, proud group but have a warrior root. If as a society, we attack them - they will fight back. I assure you, you do not want the wrath of one Sikh, let alone a whole community.

Terrorists are not engineered genetically or there is no such gene mutation. They are recruited just like any other cult which America has seen for many years. Find the cause, eliminate it - no more terrorists.

Quote by thecurly1:
"Destroy all these fanatical organizations, and the countries that harbour them"

What is your definition of 'Destroy'?



Quote by kmguru:
"Find the cause; eliminate it - no more terrorists"

I think Bin Laden would nominate Americans as the 'cause'.



I'm sorry folks, these events have upset me more than I can express. If I sound hostile in my posts please forgive me, I can't help the way I'm feeling.
Teri

I think Bin Laden would nominate Americans as the 'cause'.

The enemy warned us 2 months ago, told us "WHY". We ignored it as we have done for most problems.

I have faith in the US government. If it happens again, I will vote for a new candidate. That is all I can do.

The root of terrorism is terror. By terrifying (sp?) a group of people, it is hoped that they will obey your demands. Laden calls us Terrorists, and we call him terrorists. In the definition of Terrorism, we both are. I'm still not sure what I believe, so I have to simply stop there. Of course, I am against Laden, but I have to think about our reaction.

The French President did not use the word "Terrorism". He used the word "Conflict" perhaps because Terrorism is defined as "A system of government that uses terror to rule".

The other definition is " The use of terror, violence, and intimidation to achieve an end".

Sorry for not being able to respond quicker, school and other matters.

What I ment by destroy was pretty much that, completely eliminate the terrorist organizations and major resistance groups as well as the nations that habored them, and financed them. Once the governments of these nations, NOT THE PEOPLE, are destroyed they must be rebuilt in a stable framework of government.

We must not allow this to happen again. For all civilization.

Sorry to point out the reality. That is what they said at the end of WWI, and WWII and many other little wars, conflicts....

Obvioulsy there will still be wars.

But we must try our hardest to stop them and prevent them. If we do not it will get worse, and our children will have to deal with more horrible terror than the current three generations are facing in the present.

To not fight is to lose, it's that simple.

thecurly1
I completely agree, but I hope you and the rest that believe this hold true to their convictions. Kmguru mentioned in one of his posts that terrorists are recruited. Which might be right in some cases, but for the most part they are raised from childhood in these beliefs. Just like in America with racism kids born into a household by racist parents are going to more then likely be a racist themselves. With that being said a lot of children will die if there is a ground war. I don't advocate killing innocent children, but when they attack our soldiers they are still the enemy. Even though it's through no fault of there own. We are not going to win any type of humanitarian awards from this one and quite possible we will be looked at as one as the monster of all monsters.

Whoa "To not fight is to lose, it's that simple."???
Whats with that. To choose not to fight is what makes us human and seperates us from the animals. We have a conscience. It allows us to seek a better way. War is NEVER a proper response.

Does someone have to answer for the atrocities in NY & Washington? Yes, of course. Any civilized person can see that. But a war...come on, everyone loses in a war. Find the people responsible and arrest them.

If there is a war, you are just creating another generation of extremists ready to attack when they are old enough.

Violence begets violence.
Peace begets peace.

Lets take the higher road here okay?
T.

Fighting isn't the answer in most problems, except for this one.

Even if Bin Laden was handed over, which he more than likely won't be, there are others in his organization that would replace him just as fast as the VP would if Bush was killed.

We have to destroy, the ENTIRE terrorist organization and any country that has helped or harboring them. Peace in this case is a pipe dream, if we made a peacefull resolution these countries and groups would turn around and hit us again.

This is serious, this would be like signing a peace treaty with the Japs after Doolittle bombed Tokyo, and if we got Yamamoto. The entire group has to be destroyed and the countries properly rebuilt afterwards to ensure security.

People say, "violence doesn't solve anything". False, violence, sadly, has resolved more problems than any other method in history. If it really didn't solve anything, people and governments wouldn't use violence.

Originally posted by thecurly1
Obvioulsy there will still be wars.

But we must try our hardest to stop them and prevent them.

To not fight is to lose, it's that simple.

Which one is it? Fight, Not fight and prevent? Make up your mind.

Violence begets violence.
Peace begets peace.

How true!

thecurly1 said

People say, "violence doesn't solve anything". False, violence, sadly, has resolved more problems than any other method in history. If it really didn't solve anything, people and governments wouldn't use violence

Is that why, in USA, we have so much domestic violence? And one percent of our population are in jail?

The irony is that, that is what our enemy believes strongly too! -to resolve many problems they face.

I would love to see a perfect peacefull resolve where the terrorist group disbands, the countries apologize and Bin Laden hands himself in.

I'd also like to have sex w/Britney Spears, neither of my hopes will soon come to fruition.

I am deathly afraid that if our response isn't quick, strong, and decisive then this nation and freedom will be on one knee for a long time. We can't afford not to fight at this point.

I am really sorry that the US, and indeed countries throughout the world have suffered so greatly at the hands of what amounts to madmen. I know that I have been accused of being unrealistic when it comes to what response the amassed United Nations coalition (read here US military - as they will make up over 95% of the task force) should take. I just think caution is in order.

To say I am really impressed with US politicians at this point would be an understatement. They are actively searching out the truth before responding. They are at this point saying all of the right things.

I guess the thing I would say for everyone to do is to put yourself in the position of the average Afghan. Know at this point that they don't have as ready access to media as we do. They have a state-sponsored station. That station is spewing its own brand of propaganda. They are saying that the US is going to invade them in order to take over. That they will massacre Afghans everywhere. They are afraid. Realize too that by far the vast majority of Afghans don't hate the West, they would in fact love to live here. That's why there are so many immigrants that come to the US and Canada. Fear is the thing that causes the problem. If people are afraid, they react with anger. That's been a common thread throughout this entire conversation. If the coalition forces its way into Afganistan and other soverign nations, the people will be afraid but will react with anger. And more people will die. And there will be more anger...and more people will die. It is a cycle that has repeated itself since the beginning of time.

The cycle has been talked about for centuries and I know that there are no easy answers. I just think that maybe we should start looking for them.

If Bin Laden is proven guilty, then I would applaud his capture. I would also love to believe that the US could put an end to terrorism forever. I just don't believe that it can happen. The U.S. State Department now designates seven world governments—Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria—state sponsors of terrorism of these, however, only Iran is known to have been directly involved in terrorist attacks in the past few years. For an extensive list of terrorist organizations (so many it will scare you, go to http://www.ustreas.gov/ofac/t11ter.pdf


As far as the statement of "thecurly1" goes,

I am deathly afraid that if our response isn't quick, strong, and decisive then this nation and freedom will be on one knee for a long time. We can't afford not to fight at this point.
I strongly disagree. I do however applaud the strenght of convictions that is presented.

God Bless everyone, and may no one have to endure that kind of violence or any kind of invasion again.

T.

You know tmegeney I'm kinda imbarresed that I hadn't though of the Afghans in quite the same luck. By no means do I want a military action for revenge. I am all to aware that vengence only breeds vengence and that it is extreamly wrong morally and ethically. But I do want a response that will snuff out most of this terrorist BS that's been going on. Personally I think it should have been handeled more strongly years ago, but I'm not bringing politics into this.

It must be a scary thing for these Afghans to be thinking that the United States is going to do horrible things. The Japaneese during WWII said that we were going to invade and rape women and children. Thank god that never happened, except for in a few unfortunate cases. I hope that we can completely remove the Taliban, which in my oppinion is the most evil regime, at par with Hussein. Once removed we must rebuild that country, and other's if need be, and do so in a fashion that will promote growth, and stability. I believe force, followed by kindness is the only way to end this.

I am deathly afraid that if our response isn't quick, strong, and decisive then this nation and freedom will be on one knee for a long time. We can't afford not to fight at this point.

Here is the problem. If Osama (By the way, that is his name and most people in Moslem countries use that name) plotted the strike, he should be punished based on our laws. But what if in this specific incident, he did no such thing. So are not we jumping to the conclusion, like the guy they grabed for Atlanta Olympic bombing?

Revenge is sweet if you are after a small group that have no backing. It will turn into a full scale war if we go in guns blazing. There is a billion Moslems out there. This is not a domestic event where a cop can kill an unarmed person and get away with it. You go and start killing innocent people because somebody from their side did the same will surely cause WWIII.

And when the WWIII starts, everyone will be afraid of using nuclear bombs. That is because, this time the other party has it too. If Japan had N-Bombs during WWII, we would not have used it, otherwise we would have said good bye to New York and L.A. Here if we use N-Bomb, the other side will do the same. So when we start using conventional weapon, there will be major damage both sides.

So, the best solution is a peaceful solution with the guilty party punished in the eyes of the world community. And that is what our Govt is trying to do.

The logic train stays on track for a little bit, but then completely derails because WWIII won't start, as a matter of fact I doubt that the phraise "the Third World War", will ever be used because of its Nuclear Holocaust stigma. This will most likely be called the American-Afghan war or something similar. Anyways, the Afghan's don't have nukes, and if they do have bio or chem weapons they aren't going to use them.

Mutual Assured Destruction even works on a third world country. If anyone used a weapon of mass destruction upon American or colition troops the response would be a NUCLEAR one, that they would regret.

Peace won't solve this. The terrorists speak on language, death. They are fluent in this profane language, and we must speak to them in their own native tounge.

Whether or not anyone ever calls it WWIII has no bearing on whether or not WWIII can happen. What's in a name? I think it's dangerous to assume our response cannot start the chain of events.

I think the US government is aware of the possible danger, that's the only explanation I can come up with to explain why I, also, have been impressed with their response, so far. Impressed for the most part, anyway. We've still had to listen to: "Wanted Dead or Alive" ; "We will rid the world of evil doers" ; "Smoke 'em outa there holes". But those ARE just words. They are pursuing this in a wise manner, so far.

Peace won't solve this. The terrorists speak on language, death. They are fluent in this profane language, and we must speak to them in their own native tounge.

Then They did....we will...they would...we will...they...we...

I am not worried about any major attack anytime soon after we bomb a few civilians. What I am worried about is their small attempts to terrorize. That is bad for business. - unless we take out the root. Then I am happy. I really do not care how our govt does it, I will support it.

Hi Everyone,
I have been as vocal as anyone in this thread, but I think this will be my last post here. Its not that I dislike solid debate, let me tell you its what I thrive on. It's just the dark underlying tone.

Killing people won't bring anyone back. In war, regardless of intent, innocents die. I want the guilty party to be punished. I just don't want anyone else to die. Would it make anyone feel better if Afghans died? Punishment is not about death.

The statement...

Once removed we must rebuild that country, and other's if need be, and do so in a fashion that will promote growth, and stability. I believe force, followed by kindness is the only way to end this.
...just goes to show how the prevailing feeling is wrong. The Afghans don't want us there. They don't want us to rebuild their government. They don't want western influence on their culture. Kindness from us would be to leave them alone.

Did you know that the US has a lot to do with the Taliban being in power? When Russia invaded Afghanistan, America supplied the Afghan rebels with weapons. That civil war ripped apart the nation. Could the US just not have forced the Russians themselves to leave? Wasn't suppling weapons, training and counterintelligence a kind of terrorism itself. Actually some of those trained guerillas may now be the terrorists. After Russia left the country was in turmoil. Various political groups were fighting each other for power. The strongest group, by happenstance those with the most America weapons swept into power.

As far as chemical and nuclear weapons go, who knows? But the prevailing opinion in the intelligence field is that currently Afghanistan has neither. Pakistan however has both. That is part of the reason why the US sought to get Pakistan on their side.

Lastly remember that terrorists come from many places and are not all of one religion. Some of the countries that house and train terrorists are: Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Israel, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Syria, Lebanon, Liberia, Angola, Namibia, Chad, Sudan, Libya, Algeria... do I need to go on? The list is VERY extensive. These are not countries where terrorists are located. These are the countries where training facilities exist for terrorists. This list is from a page by the US government. They know where a lot of these people are. A war that would attempt to eliminate terrorism would be similar to a war on drugs. Idealist and impossible to win.

I really hope that those responsible are punished. It would show the power of justice. I just don't want anyone else to die.

As to why I won't post here anymore. There is a quote that I read a long time ago but it holds merit here: "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding".

Good luck everyone and happy debates. I'll talk to you again on other threads.
Terry

If it was about kindness I think they should have left the WCT buildings alone. Ever remember as a kid sticking a stick in an ant pile and what happened after that? I am afraid the hill has been stirred with that one. Really well. All that is left now is to see where the ants go. For going they are.

Every time I stuck a stick in an ant hill, the main thing I noticed and what impressed me, was how fast they repaired the damage and went on about their business.

tmegeney:

Good luck to you. No matter how much we squabble here, good or bad - does not influence government policy decisions. It is done more likely by the Fortune 1000 lobbist group.

The only thing I say to you is that the forum is a microcosm of sentiments expressed elsewhere in the society. It is mostly for your edification and knowledge. Knowing and learning your place in the world. It is possible that someday one of our members may take part in our destiny as a catalyst. So, indirectly, may be you have a contribution here too....

tmegeney
The fact of the matter remains. Get the people responsible. OK now what wait five maybe ten years for the rest of the U.S. cities to be devastated by the other terrorist groups that are all tied together with this one.
If we don't act swiftly and powerfully we look like pussy's. Don't think for one second that they won't attack again as soon as we let our guard down.
We have to rid the world of all the terrorist groups possible while we have the worlds sympathy. This is the perfect opportunity to take the necessary steps to insure OUR safety. I don't care how many innocent people have to die. To unsure MY CHILDREN LIVE. I don't care who is in power over there as long as they support our actions in this matter. You keep on talking about them and what it will do to them, saying if we do something they will retaliate. Guess what we did nothing to start this and Guess what the last I looked We're short a couple of towers and a lot of INNOCENT AMERICANS! These people are not afraid to die for their beliefs which they've proved time and time again. Well lets give them what they want. I'm tried of the U.S. helping out the world and then being SLAPPED IN THE FACE! Is it so bad that for once we would like to do the right thing FOR US nobody else.
This is not about 1 or 2 terrorist. This is about insuring that they will be incapable of retaliation. Yes! Wiping them and their supporters off the face of the planet. I don't know about you but I don't want my CHILDREN TO EVEN KNOW WHAT A TERRORIST IS LET ALONE BE A VICTIM OF ONE! In my opinion we are the strongest country in the world! We should act in our best interest for once!

May death come on swift wings for any and all that wish ill will upon the country were I live!

I grow tired of people not understanding! This WILL NOT GO AWAY THROUGH POLITICS! WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THESE PEOPLE AND THEIR BELIEFS! THEY ARE RAISED FROM BIRTH TO HATE AMERICA! YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO GO AWAY! LOOK AT RACISM IN AMERICA! WHAT YOU THINK THAT IT'S JUST GOING TO DISAPPEAR! WAKE UP!!!!!!

THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT WILL NOT GO AWAY!!!! WE HAVE TO MAKE IT GO AWAY ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!!!!!

SORRY! BUT I AM GROWING EVER MORE PISSED THAT ALOT OF PEOPLE REFUSE TO FACE REALITY AND HIDE BEHIND MORALITY!
THIS IS ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THIS COUNTRY! IF YOU REALLY THINK YOU CAN TALK THIS OUT OF EXISTENCE????? THEN I'LL BUY YOUR TICKET, PACK YOUR BAGS!! IT WAS NICE KNOWING YOU!!!!

Guess what, I'm back...
This message from Patman appeared in my hotmail from sciforums and I could not just let it go.

Most people are calm and decent. They have honest opinions and share them decently. But Patman, let me just say that you are as much as a terrorist as the people who struck the WTC. You are spreading hate!

You know, Hitler was a great leader and much beloved amongst his own people. Did that make him right? NO!!!

As far as your rant goes Patman, thats why I said that I was going to stop particpating in this forum. You views are so narrow minded as to be laughable. You are so worried about how the US will look, well you know what, outside of the US, your country is perceived as war-like and expansionist. Even amongst its allies. As far as the US helping out the world, what exactly do you refer too? Maybe how you protected your own interests in Kuwait, while ignoring the greater social problems you left behind? Maybe how you ignore human rights issues in your own country? Maybe how you force your narrow view of the world on others?

The US is a single nation on a great Earth. It is the most powerful one and with that comes great responsibility. Why don't you just see what your leaders are doing and follow their example?

You want others to die for your beliefs, fine. Try explaining that to God or whatever diety you choose to believe in. You say that you are pissed well great. So is the rest of the world at what happened. But instead of demanding INNOCENT DEATH, why don't you simply contribute to the relief or rebuilding efforts and get on with your life. I donated blood today. Did you?

Move on. Hate Mongers are a dime a dozen. Apparently there are as many of them in the US as in the Middle East.

As far as everyone else who has been mad as Hell at the situation but at least thoughtful, thank you. I have some great American friends as well as friends in the Middle East. I don't want any of them to be statistics.
Terry

Right on, Patman! It looks like self-defense has gained a new label...<i>"Hate Monger."</i>

tmegeney,

America is the latest victim of hate mongers. We agree with you. Enough. Please join us in this noble resolve. Your support would better serve the world.

First, I would like to say that I believe in having passion and emotion in life just as much as intellect. I believe in a passionately and intellectually integrated life. I think they are both strengths of humanity; rather than cold, distanced calculation and observation. Therefore I will not condemn Patman's post as too much ranting and not enough rational discussion. I think both can coexist. I must, however, agree with Tmegeney for what he is saying and presenting. I am sorry but Patman's post sounds like the "American Party Line" regardless of whether or not you agree with the bombings, and regardless if you think something should be done about it. I am not even addressing those issues.


Guess what we did nothing to start this and Guess what the last I looked We're short a couple of towers and a lot of INNOCENT AMERICANS! These people are not afraid to die for their beliefs which they've proved time and time again. Well lets give them what they want. I'm tried of the U.S. helping out the world and then being SLAPPED IN THE FACE!

Did nothing to start this? I am sorry but I don't see America's political and economic leaders as peace loving, just, humanitarian people minding their own business upon which some psycho evil group decided to lash out because of jealousy of America's opulence. I think the world events in recent world history need to be looked at in greater detail, kept in perspective and an entire world view needs to be taken, not just a narrow interpretation of this event.

Tired of the U.S. helping out the world and then being slapped in the face? When was the last time you slapped someone in the face for helping you? How realistic does that idea even sound? If the U.S. is indeed being slapped in the face perhaps it is for unsavory conduct more-so than humanitarian aid? If money or aid is truly being given to other countries, then for what purpose? Out of the kindness of America's heart? Are there strings attached? Is there a "You're my indentured servant now" type underlying theme? I am not saying that the people of this country (America) are cold heartless people out to exploit the world. But I also don't believe "the people" have any real say in the political or economic scene in the country to any great extent. We are just taught that "freedom, democracy, justice for all" balderdash to pacify us and make us think that we actually have all of it, so we won't take action and stay out of the decision makers way. It is the decision makers that boil my blood, not "the people", except when "the people" continue to wear the blinders that allow the decision makers to keep their power.

(Please note that I have said nothing whatsoever about what to do about the tragedy that occured in New York, that was not the intention of my post)

"...Patman....You are so worried about how the US will look, well you know what, outside of the US, your country is perceived as war-like and expansionist. Even amongst its allies. As far as the US helping out the world, what exactly do you refer too?"


tmegeney, I am saddened by your words. The U.S. has helped other countries when their finances were faultering, jumped in immediately when natural (and manmade) disasters have struck in foreign countries, aided in providing economic growth and agricultural development in poor countries, and backed other countries when they were not able to defend themselves. In return what have we asked for? We have cleaned up our own natural disasters, worked through our own financial difficulties, and figured out how to feed our poor, with little or no assistance from other countries. Canada has also benefited from being our neighbor. We have a large military force and would use it to defend Canada, as well as ourselves. This frees up funds for Canada to use in other areas. I'm not saying the U.S. is perfect or that I agree with every decision the government has made, but I've never thought of us as war-like or expansionist. I've always felt we have a great passion to make the world a better place for everyone. I think Patman was a little too extreme, but I think the U.S. isn't as bad as you seem to be making it out to be. Maybe my perception of what you said is inaccurate. Please let me know if I am misinterpreting it.

In my opinion, we need to find out the hard facts before any military action is taken. That's the most important thing! bin Lauden may be the most likely suspect, but it's possible that he may not have been the instigator. One thing I would (stereotypically) say about Americans, is that they want instant gratification and I worry that action may be taken too quickly out of impatience and an urge for retalliation. If bin Lauden does end up being the one behind the terrorist attacks, we need to be very careful on the action that we do take. In prior wars, it was country against country and that was clearly defined. In this case, terrorists associated with bin Lauden's organization are scattered among many countries, with no clear bullseye. That makes it a different kind of war than we have faced in the past. While, I personally don't condone bombing a whole country over one or two individual terrorists, I do feel that we can't idly stand by and do nothing once we find out who's behind the acts, either. I think the whole world has come together in agreement that the terrorist acts that occurred were unjustified and threaten all nations, not just the U.S. Once we find out who they are, maybe the whole world will unite and squash the terrorists that have placed an evil dark cloud over us all.

I agree with your words and about the ideals of the US. What I was trying to say is that sometimes those things are perceived in different ways by other people. I know after rereading my message that I expressed it wrong, but I was really put off by the comments of Patman. I respect his right to express his opinions, but....I don't know, nobody should ever condone killing innocents. As far as the US itself goes, let me say this.

In Canada, we love being next to the US. We have the world's longest unprotected border. We also attempt to achieve complete free trade with the US. We watch American television. Actually, these days there really is little difference between the majority of Canadians and Americans. I can't speak as to the idea of US protection of Canada as I really don't know. We feel somewhat smothered by our big brother sometimes, but not as a nuscience only as family. Understand though that Canada has sent or asked if help was needed during almost every disaster that America has suffered through. Humanitarianism is one of the ideals on which Canada was founded. Indeed, it was a Canadian, Lester B. Pearson who founded the United Nations.

Now having said that understand that sometimes when the most powerful country in the world decides to right wrongs, it will anger some people. Do you remember watching westerns growing up? That frontier atmosphere was only lived through by the US and to a somewhat lesser extent by Western Canada. Other countries don't understand the concept of the Marshall or the posse mentality. In Newfoundland, on Canada's east coast for example, the constabulary (police) didn't wear firearms until a few years ago. I don't want to speak for other countries, but Islam doesn't really like the US in large part due to the US support of Israel. And sometimes, Canada included, countries do things that are in their own best interest. Personally, as I don't want to speak for anyone else here, I feel that the US invaded Iraq for its own self interest. Did it need to be done anyway? Probably, but my contention is just that your government needed to call it for what it was, and not say that it was only there to free Kuwait. It was over oil (and that's okay - but admit it). As far as US civil rights, in a country where racism is as prevalent as it is, there is still work to be done. Not that Canada is 100% non-racist. I can only wish. As far as homelessness, do you realize that there are more homeless in NYC then in some Canadian cities. Don't get me wrong, we have homeless people here too, just fewer per capita. I don't blame the US for any of this, but the problem exists.

This has nothing to do with the WTC or Pentagon disasters. I feel so sorrowful to anyone who has suffered during this time. I just don't want anyone else to die. To some, that's unrealistic or idealistic, so be it. Life is just too short to be hell bent on revenge. If anyone wants to be hell bent, lets be hell bent for justice.

kcollings, you seem like a very reasonable person and I applaud that. I am sorry that my previous rant made me sound anti-American.
Terry

For some reason in school I heard people mentioning that the wtc had blown up, but, for reasons UNBENKNOWNST to me I never, ever paid any heed of them, never gave them a second thought. I...just...can't...figure out why. Finally I got to my first government class and the teacher was in hysterics because her daughter worked near the wtc (she's fine). I will never, ever forget that day for as long as I live, and look forward to tell my grandchildren or great grandchildren about this event. It's just mind boggling how horrified I heard her say "the world trade center is gone, it HAS BEEN LEVELED." I always thought that it was invinsible, and was proud to be a human because of such a technological and architectural achievement. I think that if they rebuild them that it should be much taller, much grander than before. I go to NYC every thanksgiving, and used to live there till I was six, and you honestly do not know what it's like experiencing the bowels of manhattan. The smells of freshly baked soft pretzels, the dark, pale light that eminates from the cloudy sky and the echoes of cars and their horns reverbrating throughout the incredible reflective buildings. I remember standing at the wtc for the first time, I had to crane my neck so much to see the top (i was standing right next to it) that I almost fell over backwards. It was magical. NYC has lost some of its witches brew that makes it so special, that makes it the unoffical capital of the world.

tmegeney-

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts for me. I agree with you and understand what you're saying. I guess maybe I'm a little sensative with everything that's going on right now and I misunderstood your meaning at first. I do agree with you about not taking action out of revenge and anger. I hope everyone can work together to somehow put a stop to these terrorist attacks, without having a lot of innocent people getting killed. Thanks for your message and your patience!

RIGHT OR WRONG DOES NOT APPLY

First of all I would like to say. Your still missing the point, this will not just go away. Last I heard there were 63 nations that lost people in this terrorist attack. But we lost the most. I'm worried about my children! Not theirs! Obviously they don't care about their children either if they're putting guns in there hands and shooting at a picture of our president. I'm all for free speech, but when they attacked they crossed the line and from this line there should be no return. Reality seem to elude a lot of people. These people that did this our insane. Out of the f***ing minds. This is not our fault. No one is squeaky clean in the world, I can live with this. Of course there are strings attached to our actions in the world. If you haven't noticed that's the way the world works. Reality might suck but it still remains reality. I said I don't care how many innocent people die, not to start bombing innocent people. You don't see that I'm a realist. You see words that you don't agree with. Your a dreamer if you think that this will be resolved peacefully. I say again WAKE UP! THINK ABOUT THE ENEMY! WHO THEY ARE, WHAT THERE ABOUT, WHY THEY HATE US FROM BIRTH! I feel we should take any and all action to prevent this from ever happening again. TALKING WON'T DO IT! TRY TO REASON WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE INSANE? I'M SORRY THAT YOU THINK I'M NARROW MINDED. BUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT THAT SOMETIMES VIOLENCE IS THE ONLY SOLUTION!
If there was a way to do this I would be all for it! I don't need to see blood to give me peace of mind! I'm a pacifist by nature, but I'm not blind to the fact that this is the chance to eradicate terrorism against all nations. LIFE SUCKS! To insure the safety of my children and country, I would do anything! I'm 31 years old and thinking of enlisting. Not the greatest career move at this point, but I would put my body where my mouth is. I'm sorry you can't understand. Sometimes you have to realize there is no peaceful solution.
Again you just read words on a screen, if you knew me you might understand. I posted exactly what I know has to happen to unsure the safety of my children and country.

We have been raped of our sense of security, freedom, and liberties when days ago evil incarnate struck ot against the souls in New York, Washington D.C. and Pennsylvania. Never again may the world look upon the values that we have lived by the same again.

What happened on September 11, 2001 will be where history book chapters begin and end. At this spectacular juncture, we are poised now to fill the pages of those chapters for the ages. My hope is to see a day when terrorism's only sanctuary is in the glossary of an American History book. The only way of achieving such a goal, and to fulfill the prayers of millions is to fight this dark foce and never stop until it has been vanquished from the world.

The unprovoked killing of innocent people makes Osama Bin Laden no different than Adolf Hitler except for in numbers.

May God Bless Us All.

Well said as always. Sorry for my rant or two. But I am not some lunatic from America that is just blowing off steam. I did the math and I understand what I've said goes against what any peace loving person would believe. But I know in my heart I'm right.
Tmegeney
I'm not trying to push your buttons. I love your country. The best vacation I ever had was in Victoria B.C. The place is beautiful. There is a lot we can learn from Canada. I respect your opinions and I respect the fact that your looking for peaceful resolutions, in light of this tragic event. But sadly I can't see any possibility of a peaceful solution.

Thanks Patman, I understand.

Hi all,
I can see how hotly debated this topic will continue to be and after reading everyone thoughts I tend to support the words of both Tmegency and Quaid.

Quaid, who said
"I think the world events in recent world history need to be looked at in greater detail, kept in perspective and an entire world view needs to be taken, not just a narrow interpretation of this event.

If money or aid is truly being given to other countries, then for what purpose? Out of the kindness of America's heart? Are there strings attached?

But I also don't believe "the people" have any real say in the political or economic scene in the country to any great extent."

AND

Tmegeney who wrote:
"A war that would attempt to eliminate terrorism would be similar to a war on drugs. Idealist and impossible to win.

As far as chemical and nuclear weapons go, who knows? But the prevailing opinion in the intelligence field is that currently Afghanistan has neither. Pakistan however has both. That is part of the reason why the US sought to get Pakistan on their side."


I think, (and it's only my opinion)
Everyone seems to be skirting the topic of the nuclear threat that is now a very, very real possibility. My feeling is that America will do their utmost to get it right in terms of justice, however I think that nuclear retaliation from any side or country is at the forefront of the minds of the decision makers. We can argue all we like. Our hearts have been ripped apart. Mending them is going to take ..... a miracle.

Take care everyone,
Teri

Question... Could the trajic events of Sept. 11th been avoided had Pres. Clinton's request for funds to pursue Bin Laden been granted six years ago when he asked for it?

runveus, Welcome to sciforum
Very hard question to answer. First we don't even know if we fingered the right man? Second, We don't know how far Clinton would have gone to put an end to the terrorist group(s) if he did in fact get the funding. And last but not least the scarcest thing of all is even if we got Bin Laden, there is no lack of people to take over were he left off. Their infrastructure is far greater then anyone gave credit. It crosses many borders and enjoys the sympathy of many people. Six years ago we didn't have the sympathy of the world on our side and today even having it we could fall short of reaching this goal. They do not want our presents there for many reasons. Even the people that show some support for the U.S. are only doing it because from one angle or another they're being squeezed. The politics behind this are ridiculous. One thing we have to remember is these are a war hardened people that are no strangers to defending their beliefs. This will get ugly.

Hi runveus:

welcome to sciforums. First you have to ask this question to yourself. If you are the president of a large country and a super power dropped a specially constructed bomb to kill you that went through a heavily fortified underground bunker, and humiliated you and your people, - would not you want to take revenge?

What would be the best way to take revenge without your name being exposed? Remember you are the president/dictator of your country. Then you will have the answer (not necessarily the truth).

I hate playing the blame game or "what if", because both tend to spiral down into entanglement and stagnicity along the way of debate.

But anyone willing to make the government under Clinton or Bush Sr. responsible for the attacks must look at one brutual fact. The American people have to take some of the blame as well.

I seriously believe that President Clinton and possibly the CIA knew of Bin Laden's responsibility in the first WTC attack, and definately in the embassies, and the USS Cole.

Just think if he had wanted to respond in the way that we plan on doing now back in 1998, what the response would be by the American people. With a super boyant stockmarket, abundance of wealth, and a relitively perfect nation, do you belive we would have backed invading Afghanistan. No, Clinton's head would have been called for on a stick if it was even mentioned three years ago.

This is a government by the people, for the people. We control our government by voting and more importantly by using the media as our bully pulpit to talk to government. We were isolationists and were afraid to put lives on the line before it got worse.

But hey I don't like to play the blame game.

I can appreciate both points of view. Pres. Clinton "might" have peek of his career both politically and socially. The idea "might" have been perceived as a ridiculous stunt from an egomanic who'd use such a stand to boost his political career in away that would surpass his presidency. Maybe.
I do think that the threats from bin Laden as well has from any other terrorist groups have taken too lightly.
Women seem to be able to keep their homes strong and in order, more so than men would be able to. With that statement made, if I were the President of a large country such a tragedy would not have occured. ;)

Thanks for the warm welcome guys!!!

Lebanon Deployment -- Aug. 25, 1982 to Feb. 26, 1984:
Bombing of 24 MAU HQ, Beirut International Airport, Oct. 23, 1983;
241 Americans died, 220 Marines, 18 Sailors and 3 Soldiers.

Eighteen years later the war is finally brought to our shores ... and there are those who are shocked ... "Why would anyone hate us?" ... And a President declaring war on 'terrorism' and all that support it ... the President of a country whose citizens have supported 'terrorism' with both with money and weapons for over thirty years in Northern Ireland ... The madness ... The hypocracy!